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Reactions to WBC finale, no fit for Fitts, are we past crunch time for Jordan Walker? · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:06
Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome to another edition of Cardinal Territory.
0:11
Speaker 1: For this episode, we told the professional professional athletes get
0:15
Speaker 1: out of here, take a break. We're bringing in the
0:18
Speaker 1: media and with us today Jeff Jones of the Belleville
0:22
Speaker 1: News Democrat and John Denton, formerly of MLB dot com.
0:28
Speaker 1: Hire this guy because he's really really good. Now, gentlemen,
0:33
Speaker 1: before we get started, we have a tradition on this
0:36
Speaker 1: podcast we beg for subscribers. So we want to get
0:40
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0:44
Speaker 1: had to get to and we're all terrified to him.
0:46
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0:55
Speaker 1: grow the podcast and we'd like to get to seven
0:59
Speaker 1: thousand subscribers. Well, boys, Team USA loses in the final
1:06
Speaker 1: to Venezuela three to two. A lot to talk about
1:09
Speaker 1: in this I'm gonna start with this because Team USA
1:14
Speaker 1: had a star studded lineup with all kinds of pop
1:21
Speaker 1: up and down the lineup. In the final three games,
1:25
Speaker 1: team USA scored a total of nine runs. So my
1:29
Speaker 1: first question and I'll start with you, Jeff, is where
1:32
Speaker 1: did the o go?
1:35
Speaker 2: You know, I guess the thing that everyone says is
1:38
Speaker 2: that in spring training the pitchers are always a little
1:40
Speaker 2: bit ahead of the hitters, and you see that kind
1:42
Speaker 2: of you know, still over into the regular season. Now,
1:44
Speaker 2: that didn't seem to bother the d R much. For instance,
1:47
Speaker 2: those guys seem to be in fine hitting shape. But
1:50
Speaker 2: I would imagine there probably is an extent to which
1:53
Speaker 2: that's the case for the US team, especially given you know,
1:55
Speaker 2: the guys in the team who are maybe not playing
1:57
Speaker 2: winter ball in the same way as some of these
1:58
Speaker 2: other players are. But yeah, it was distressing, you know,
2:01
Speaker 2: and I think too it stood out to me last night.
2:04
Speaker 2: Obviously there are challenges when you're managing your roster that
2:06
Speaker 2: only has two catchers on it and you have some
2:08
Speaker 2: limited options there. But that's the one run game in
2:10
Speaker 2: the ninth and cal Rally's sitting on the bench, and
2:13
Speaker 2: the guy who had sixty homers last year sits on
2:15
Speaker 2: the bench while Roman Anthony strikes out there in the
2:17
Speaker 2: World Baseball Classic. Roman Anthony is gonna be a good
2:19
Speaker 2: player in the big leagues for a lot of years
2:21
Speaker 2: to come. But I'm much when they game at home going,
2:23
Speaker 2: surely cal Rallley' is getting to the plate here at
2:25
Speaker 2: some point and it didn't happen. And so it's just
2:28
Speaker 2: just tough to see them lose in a fashion where
2:30
Speaker 2: you know, otherwise you would have seen a real moment
2:32
Speaker 2: from Bryce Harper. You want to see a really cool
2:34
Speaker 2: highlight that'll that'll last for years to come. But instead
2:37
Speaker 2: the Venezuelan's you know, scraped it together and to their credit,
2:40
Speaker 2: were able to deliver that knockout punch of the US
2:42
Speaker 2: just didn't have.
2:44
Speaker 1: Now, John, I get it, and we heard about it
2:46
Speaker 1: throughout the broadcast. You know, it's still spring training for
2:50
Speaker 1: these guys. These guys got a lot of work, a
2:52
Speaker 1: lot of cage work. They gone up some of that
2:54
Speaker 1: bets in high level game situation, right, I expect a
3:01
Speaker 1: little more offense, and cal Rowling never got it going.
3:04
Speaker 1: I mean, he's a game changer, but he never got it.
3:07
Speaker 3: Just your thoughts on what we so, Yeah, Kat, I mean,
3:10
Speaker 3: this thing is every three years these guys know they're
3:12
Speaker 3: going to be on the team. They should be hitting
3:14
Speaker 3: all off season getting ready for this moment. We can't
3:17
Speaker 3: keep using that excuse I mean maybe the offense took
3:20
Speaker 3: their cue from Aaron Judge with that awful speech he
3:22
Speaker 3: gave him. I mean, Aaron Judge might be the worst
3:24
Speaker 3: captain since the guy drove the Titanic into the Iceberg.
3:27
Speaker 3: I mean, he didn't hit. His speech wasn't very good.
3:31
Speaker 3: You know, it was a good thing to see Harper
3:32
Speaker 3: hit the ball, he hit the home run that he did,
3:34
Speaker 3: because Schwerber didn't have a good series. Harper didn't really
3:37
Speaker 3: have a good series. He had the big moment there,
3:40
Speaker 3: but you know, it's just a shame twenty five strikeouts
3:43
Speaker 3: in the last two games. You know, of course, guys
3:46
Speaker 3: are using the excuse they're not ready, they're in mid
3:49
Speaker 3: not midseason shape. You know, I don't buy that. I mean,
3:51
Speaker 3: these guys have known for months and months they were
3:54
Speaker 3: going to be on this team. They need to be
3:56
Speaker 3: taking VP all offseason. They need to be ready when
3:58
Speaker 3: this thing goes because it's a big tournament, and I
4:01
Speaker 3: fully enjoyed it. I was happy for Venezuela because you
4:05
Speaker 3: saw the tiers coming down to those players. So this
4:07
Speaker 3: tournament definitely mattered to Team USA and they just have
4:10
Speaker 3: to be better ready next time.
4:12
Speaker 1: Bottom line, World Baseball Classic is good for baseball period,
4:16
Speaker 1: good for Major League baseball, good for youth baseball, good
4:20
Speaker 1: for baseball around the world. So that's a good thing.
4:23
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure how good it is for Mark
4:26
Speaker 1: de ross at this point. Now, for the record, DeRosa
4:29
Speaker 1: very good major league player, really good host on the air,
4:33
Speaker 1: no question about it, and all around a good dude.
4:37
Speaker 1: Like I know him, he's a good guy. But he
4:40
Speaker 1: had that little sneffo where he wasn't exactly clear on
4:44
Speaker 1: the tide breaker stuff, and I'm not so sure that
4:49
Speaker 1: he was able to talk his way out of it
4:52
Speaker 1: and never really clarified it to a lot of people's satisfaction.
4:56
Speaker 1: And then so when other things went wrong, Cod, Yeah,
5:00
Speaker 1: Mark de Rosa, So Jeff I asked you, is DeRosa
5:04
Speaker 1: going to be able to live this?
5:05
Speaker 4: Then?
5:06
Speaker 1: Everybody likes some good guy, smart baseball guy. Made some
5:10
Speaker 1: mistakes and as you guys point out, you know, he
5:13
Speaker 1: had to follow these rules about player usage, some of
5:17
Speaker 1: it we might not even know about, right, but he
5:21
Speaker 1: did his best to navigate and he didn't see it through.
5:24
Speaker 1: Is he gonna have to wear this for a little while? Yeah?
5:28
Speaker 4: I think he probably is.
5:29
Speaker 2: You know you you've heard his name mentioned in conjunction
5:32
Speaker 2: with a lot of potential job openings. You know, throughout
5:34
Speaker 2: the last couple of winners, a guy who currently wants
5:37
Speaker 2: to be a big league manager, and I think, fair
5:40
Speaker 2: or not, this is probably going to stick to him
5:41
Speaker 2: for a little bit. And whether or not that means
5:44
Speaker 2: that he has a future as a big league manager.
5:46
Speaker 2: I you know, not for me to say they don't
5:48
Speaker 2: want me to make those hiring decisions. I do think
5:51
Speaker 2: that the fair contrast to draw it is probably with
5:54
Speaker 2: Omar Lopez running that Venezuelan team. You know, this is
5:56
Speaker 2: a guy who is is the bench coach in Houston,
5:58
Speaker 2: a guy who has a lot of experience working in
6:01
Speaker 2: the big leagues, and when things were asked of him,
6:03
Speaker 2: he was able to kind of massage and was able
6:05
Speaker 2: to push back. I mean, you saw Daniel Polentsi a
6:07
Speaker 2: pitch last night, third time in four days. I'm sure
6:09
Speaker 2: the Cubs didn't love that, but he was able to
6:12
Speaker 2: make it happen. He had a press conference early in
6:14
Speaker 2: the tournament where he was asked about the restrictions he
6:16
Speaker 2: got from teams, and he said, look, you know, I
6:18
Speaker 2: had some teams reach out to me twenty four hours
6:20
Speaker 2: before this started, and I had to tell him, I'm sorry,
6:22
Speaker 2: I already have.
6:23
Speaker 4: My guys planned out. Now.
6:24
Speaker 2: Some of that probably was a little bit of bravado,
6:26
Speaker 2: and I'm sure that even they made more concessions than
6:28
Speaker 2: we were going to hear about.
6:29
Speaker 4: And there's no.
6:30
Speaker 2: Doubt that when you're talking about the US team, where
6:32
Speaker 2: there's a lot of guys who have big names, who
6:34
Speaker 2: are making big money, who are a you know, weird
6:36
Speaker 2: s posting their career trek Scooble for instance, a guy
6:39
Speaker 2: who's on the precipice of what could be like a
6:41
Speaker 2: record breaking free agency, totally understandable that it's going to
6:45
Speaker 2: be challenging to manage some of those things with those guys.
6:48
Speaker 2: Also difficult not to imagine that it couldn't have gone
6:51
Speaker 2: a little better with maybe a more experienced, little steadier
6:54
Speaker 2: hand at the wheel and maybe somebody who is a
6:57
Speaker 2: little more comfortable pushing back on some of these teams
7:00
Speaker 2: to maybe Duroso, who you know, works in the Commissioner's
7:02
Speaker 2: office in his auto will be network, has to maintain
7:05
Speaker 2: a lot of relationships. Maybe somebody who's in a position
7:08
Speaker 2: to push back a little could do that A little
7:11
Speaker 2: more effectively.
7:13
Speaker 1: So it's a balance. There's no question. If you're going
7:15
Speaker 1: to manage a team USA in particular, you're gonna have
7:18
Speaker 1: to strike a balance. So John, usually you like to
7:22
Speaker 1: treat someone like a Pennanta. Just take some wax at him.
7:25
Speaker 1: What about Durosa? Did he handle that balance well enough?
7:29
Speaker 3: You know it's a it's a tough job, Jim, Like
7:31
Speaker 3: you said, there's so there's thirty teams who are calling
7:33
Speaker 3: him telling him who he can use or who he
7:35
Speaker 3: can't use. But you know that type of stage. I
7:38
Speaker 3: want to see our best major league managers managing that game.
7:42
Speaker 3: I don't want to see Nolan McClain starting a gold
7:45
Speaker 3: medal game. You know, I want to see a grizzled
7:49
Speaker 3: old school manager. What do they tell you you always
7:52
Speaker 3: want to see your pilot have gray hair. I want
7:53
Speaker 3: to see my manager have gray hair. I want to
7:55
Speaker 3: see somebody who's done it for a lot of games.
7:58
Speaker 3: Nolan McLain's going to be one of the maybe the
8:00
Speaker 3: best rookie in baseball this year. I don't want to
8:02
Speaker 3: see him starting the gold medal game. You know that
8:05
Speaker 3: that needs to be somebody who's done it before, and
8:08
Speaker 3: like Jeff said, you need a manager who's going to
8:10
Speaker 3: push back, a manager who's going to fight some of
8:12
Speaker 3: this stuff a little harder. We need to take this
8:14
Speaker 3: more serious. I mean, the world is kicking USA's butt
8:17
Speaker 3: in this thing right now. So if we want to
8:19
Speaker 3: win this thing, we really got to get our best
8:22
Speaker 3: guys and get him in there. You know, I'm sure
8:24
Speaker 3: tark Skooble didn't feel great last night watching that the
8:27
Speaker 3: way that played out, And you know, if he had
8:29
Speaker 3: a long term deal under his belt, he probably would
8:32
Speaker 3: have pitched that game last night. So you know, if
8:34
Speaker 3: we're serious about winning this thing, we got to go
8:37
Speaker 3: with our best major league managers and our best major
8:40
Speaker 3: league starting pitchers in that spot.
8:43
Speaker 1: I don't know if Durosa has gray hair now, and
8:45
Speaker 1: I haven't seen him in a while, but I guarantee
8:47
Speaker 1: he does now. He does.
8:49
Speaker 4: Ye.
8:50
Speaker 1: So, we all love the World Baseball Classic, right, but
8:53
Speaker 1: you've heard people bring up alternate suggestions for when it
8:57
Speaker 1: should be played or how it should be played. If
9:00
Speaker 1: do you like it as it is now or would
9:02
Speaker 1: you like to see it moved All Star Break another time?
9:05
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts the idea of playing it during
9:08
Speaker 2: the All Star break is interesting to me. I'm not
9:10
Speaker 2: entirely sure how that looks. You know, it probably has
9:13
Speaker 2: to be some hybrid of maybe you do the round
9:16
Speaker 2: robin play during spring and then you're talking about the
9:18
Speaker 2: knockout games during the All Star break. Maybe that gets
9:20
Speaker 2: to be a place where it's a little more tolerable
9:22
Speaker 2: in terms of workload and all that.
9:25
Speaker 4: But you know, it's hard to say.
9:26
Speaker 2: I think the other thing too, to keep in mind
9:28
Speaker 2: is that the next time we see best on best
9:30
Speaker 2: or close to it may very well be at the
9:33
Speaker 2: Olympics in twenty twenty eight. You know, there's a real
9:35
Speaker 2: possibility that that major league players will play in those Olympics.
9:38
Speaker 2: And if that's the case, that will be really exciting
9:41
Speaker 2: because I'll just take it to the next level. You know,
9:43
Speaker 2: at anybody who watches hockey can tell you the Four
9:48
Speaker 2: Nations was fun and it was cool and it was
9:50
Speaker 2: exciting a year ago, but it wasn't the Olympics. And
9:52
Speaker 2: you know, Olympic baseball doesn't have that same history obviously
9:56
Speaker 2: of a professional involvement. But if the twenty eight Olympics do,
10:00
Speaker 2: who have that and there are big leaguers playing in
10:02
Speaker 2: that tournament? That's gonna be really special, especially because tournament's
10:05
Speaker 2: gonna be excuse me, NLA played in Dodger Stadium.
10:08
Speaker 4: That's gonna be really exciting. And I really hope that's
10:11
Speaker 4: how that works out.
10:13
Speaker 1: Then what about you? Do you keep it as is?
10:14
Speaker 1: You make changes? If so, what changes? Dude?
10:18
Speaker 3: I think you got to keep it the way it
10:19
Speaker 3: is now. Like if you go the middle of the season,
10:22
Speaker 3: the Tigers aren't gonna let Tark Schooble pitch seven innings
10:25
Speaker 3: in a game like that. They aren't gonna let him
10:27
Speaker 3: make a big start.
10:28
Speaker 1: You know.
10:28
Speaker 3: The Phillies are not gonna let Aaron Nola make a
10:31
Speaker 3: big start in the middle of the season. Like, if
10:33
Speaker 3: you want the best out there, you're gonna have to
10:35
Speaker 3: use them now with the restrictions, because teams who are
10:38
Speaker 3: serious about go making deep runs in the playoffs, trying
10:41
Speaker 3: to win a World Series, they're not gonna allow their
10:43
Speaker 3: best players to give everything. I'm afraid you might see
10:47
Speaker 3: like an NBA All Star Game or a NHL All
10:49
Speaker 3: Star Game where it's kind of, you know, kind of
10:52
Speaker 3: a little bit of you know, just playfulness and it
10:55
Speaker 3: doesn't have the serious it does now. It's clearly working
10:59
Speaker 3: right now. The whole baseball world is buzzing about this tournament.
11:02
Speaker 3: Let's keep it the way it is and keep all
11:05
Speaker 3: the focus during that two week period and then, you know,
11:07
Speaker 3: stay away from the All Star break. I'm afraid it
11:09
Speaker 3: would water it down if you did that.
11:12
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12:21
Speaker 1: All right, fellas news at a Jupiter. Richard Fitz has
12:25
Speaker 1: been option so it would seem that the Cardinals five
12:30
Speaker 1: man rotation is in place. Look, Fitz had some good moments,
12:36
Speaker 1: not so good. I kind of liked the way that
12:39
Speaker 1: the rotation took shape. I kind of expected this even
12:43
Speaker 1: early on. Obviously it had to play out, Jeff, your
12:46
Speaker 1: reaction to.
12:47
Speaker 2: It, Yeah, I think there's a couple of things here.
12:50
Speaker 2: I think Number one, Andrea Plante has pitched twelve in spring.
12:53
Speaker 2: That doesn't obviously erase the struggles he had last season,
12:56
Speaker 2: but but definitely he looked a little better, a little sharper,
12:59
Speaker 2: and so maybe you would see a little better version
13:02
Speaker 2: of him, certainly to start the season, which makes a
13:04
Speaker 2: decision with Fits a little easier. The other thing, too,
13:06
Speaker 2: is that when you look at the schedule for the
13:08
Speaker 2: opening week of the season, they don't play on a
13:11
Speaker 2: Thursday for the first four or five weeks of the
13:13
Speaker 2: regular season, so there are a lot of off days
13:15
Speaker 2: built into that schedule that makes it a little bit
13:17
Speaker 2: hard to find a way to use six starters effectively
13:20
Speaker 2: and get everybody kind of you know, the innings that
13:22
Speaker 2: they need. You know, as much as the Cardinals have
13:25
Speaker 2: been concerned about not overloading guys with workload early in
13:28
Speaker 2: the season, there's also a concern about not getting guys
13:30
Speaker 2: enough work. And so with the way that the off
13:32
Speaker 2: days are stacked up, not totally a shock that they
13:35
Speaker 2: went this way. You know, Fits is a guy who
13:37
Speaker 2: obviously I think turned a lot of heads in his
13:39
Speaker 2: first start to spring, goes out there and all of
13:41
Speaker 2: a sudden, he's hitting ninety eight ninety nine, you know,
13:43
Speaker 2: as a guy who last season was hitting ninety seven
13:46
Speaker 2: and that was one of the biggest year over year
13:48
Speaker 2: dames in baseball. To amp that up even a little more,
13:51
Speaker 2: I think was exciting to some folks, But the command
13:53
Speaker 2: maybe wasn't always there, and there's probably something to be
13:56
Speaker 2: said for giving him some time to kind of work
13:58
Speaker 2: through those things in a less stressful environment, and also,
14:03
Speaker 2: you know, creating a situation where when the Cardinals do
14:05
Speaker 2: need another starter, he's going to be able to be
14:08
Speaker 2: there for them.
14:09
Speaker 4: To reach for.
14:10
Speaker 2: I think the thing that you know, we repeated it
14:12
Speaker 2: a lot throughout last season, but that there's repeating now
14:15
Speaker 2: is that they did not have a starter get hurt
14:17
Speaker 2: all of last season. That's that's just remarkable. That just
14:20
Speaker 2: doesn't happen, right, Like, as much as they want to
14:24
Speaker 2: and we can talk up the program, they have these
14:26
Speaker 2: guys on to keep everyone healthy to some extent, like
14:29
Speaker 2: luck's gonna bite you. They're not going to get through
14:31
Speaker 2: the season with no injury.
14:32
Speaker 4: That just that just doesn't happen.
14:34
Speaker 2: So to have that added depth at Triple A, I
14:37
Speaker 2: think is useful. And it also puts them in a
14:40
Speaker 2: situation where they can afford to be a little less
14:42
Speaker 2: choosy with the back and you know, the back half
14:46
Speaker 2: of the right side of the bull ty because there
14:47
Speaker 2: are some guys without a lot of roster flexibility. George
14:50
Speaker 2: Soriano doesn't have options. Matt Pushard is a Rule five guy.
14:54
Speaker 2: Scott Blewett not on the Fordy Man, but is out
14:56
Speaker 2: of options once he goes on. So there are some
14:59
Speaker 2: some flexible spots they need to find, and doing this
15:02
Speaker 2: with fits gives them some more choices in that area
15:05
Speaker 2: of the roster.
15:07
Speaker 1: And I think one of the untold stories that Lay said,
15:10
Speaker 1: you know last season, Hey, I've talked to him about
15:13
Speaker 1: being a starter, and I think I could be a
15:16
Speaker 1: Starter's repertoire is really good. And also he's got that
15:19
Speaker 1: arm we saw last year out of the bullpen where
15:21
Speaker 1: he just wants the ball, doesn't matter how many times
15:24
Speaker 1: in a row he's pitched. He wants the ball. But
15:27
Speaker 1: I think his stuff was nasty and John, you know
15:30
Speaker 1: about this guy. He's real quiet in the clubhouse, a
15:34
Speaker 1: soft spoken guy, but he is intense on the mound.
15:37
Speaker 1: I like what he brings to the table.
15:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jim, I really like Leayy a lot. Like anytime
15:43
Speaker 3: you talk to Ali Marmol about him, the first word
15:46
Speaker 3: he uses aptitude. He's probably the smartest guy in that room.
15:49
Speaker 3: I mean, he throws six seven pitches. He probably could
15:53
Speaker 3: throw an eighth pitch if you needed him too. And
15:55
Speaker 3: he's a guy who he doesn't take himself too seriously.
15:58
Speaker 3: He's very mellow, quiet, but he attacks when he's on
16:02
Speaker 3: the mound. And he will even tell you he's like,
16:04
Speaker 3: how can the hitter know what's coming when I don't
16:07
Speaker 3: even know what I'm gonna throw? He said, I just
16:08
Speaker 3: throw what Pedro tells me. But he's got a pitch
16:11
Speaker 3: that goes right, he's got a pitch that goes left.
16:13
Speaker 3: You know, he can throw the sinker. He's a diamond
16:18
Speaker 3: in the rough. I really hope he has a good season.
16:20
Speaker 3: And you know, we saw him for a long stretch
16:22
Speaker 3: last year where he was really really good. You know,
16:25
Speaker 3: if he can go out and repeat what he did
16:27
Speaker 3: for the first you know, three months of last season,
16:30
Speaker 3: do that as a starter this year, he can really
16:32
Speaker 3: make himself a lot of money and become a great
16:35
Speaker 3: value to the Cardinals.
16:36
Speaker 1: And he wants to do it. So we all know
16:39
Speaker 1: Jordan Walker has talent because we saw it at the
16:43
Speaker 1: major league level, right and since then it's been a regression.
16:47
Speaker 1: Now we all know Jordan is a really good young man,
16:50
Speaker 1: still young. Have to put that out there, still a
16:52
Speaker 1: young guy, but still trying to find it. And I
16:55
Speaker 1: go back to last year, Jeff, where he went down
16:58
Speaker 1: to Double A and they simplified his approach, and he said,
17:02
Speaker 1: and he told all of us, all the media, that
17:05
Speaker 1: his focus was any movement that wasn't toward the wall.
17:09
Speaker 1: He got rid of simplified. And then he had some
17:11
Speaker 1: short term success, but now he's kind of gotten different directions.
17:17
Speaker 1: I think he's a little bit lost. I know he's
17:19
Speaker 1: in the hitting lab. What do you think the best
17:21
Speaker 1: solution in your opinion, for Jordan Walker at this point
17:25
Speaker 1: to get back to where we know he can be.
17:28
Speaker 2: So I guess I guess what I would start is
17:31
Speaker 2: with the way they have described the situation, and you
17:33
Speaker 2: talk Alamar Moole about this, and the explanation from the
17:36
Speaker 2: Cardinals tends to be the things that Jordan Walker needs
17:39
Speaker 2: to work on, the things we all consider right, the
17:41
Speaker 2: pitch selection, the ability to protect down in a way,
17:44
Speaker 2: their argument is that those things are not things that
17:46
Speaker 2: are likely to improve a triple A because the guys
17:48
Speaker 2: who are pitching at that level just don't have the
17:50
Speaker 2: command to hit those spots in the same way that
17:53
Speaker 2: big league hitters do. And so their thought is to
17:56
Speaker 2: have him down there to get more selective against triple A.
17:59
Speaker 2: Pitching to you to to swing better in the minors
18:02
Speaker 2: doesn't translate in the same way because of the things
18:05
Speaker 2: he needs to work on, and fair enough, if that's
18:07
Speaker 2: their judgment, that's that's difficult. But when you look at
18:10
Speaker 2: sort of the competitive goal of this team, and you know,
18:13
Speaker 2: if we're not going to say rebuilding, we can save
18:15
Speaker 2: the short term versus the long term. However they want
18:17
Speaker 2: to praise it. I understand why they're taking the track
18:19
Speaker 2: that they're taking. The challenge eventually is going to be
18:24
Speaker 2: How does that affect the rest of the roster. You know,
18:26
Speaker 2: what is the message to the other guys on this team?
18:29
Speaker 2: If Walker is going to come off a season where
18:32
Speaker 2: the ops starts with the five go into spring, have
18:35
Speaker 2: twice as many strikeouts as hits, and by the way,
18:37
Speaker 2: all the hits are singles, and they're just gonna roll
18:40
Speaker 2: with the end of the season. Now they would say
18:43
Speaker 2: that spring stand bringing stats don't matter. That probably is true.
18:48
Speaker 2: The trend is pretty ugly, and so that gets increasingly
18:51
Speaker 2: difficult to ignore, hard to justify from a pure performance standpoint.
18:56
Speaker 2: If it gets to be you know, let's say Memorial
18:59
Speaker 2: Day and we're talking about but now, all of a sudden,
19:01
Speaker 2: Lars new Bar is healthy, and what if Josh Bias
19:03
Speaker 2: is tearing of triple A the way he was last year.
19:06
Speaker 2: No matter how far back the Cardinals are in the
19:08
Speaker 2: standing to that point, or you know, no matter where
19:10
Speaker 2: they are in the standing, to that point. I guess right,
19:12
Speaker 2: it becomes really difficult to justify keeping on with the
19:17
Speaker 2: keeping on if it doesn't look a whole lot better.
19:20
Speaker 1: Now.
19:20
Speaker 2: Maybe a month from now, we're two and a half
19:23
Speaker 2: weeks into the regular season and Jordan Walker's got four
19:26
Speaker 2: homers and we're all going ah spring training.
19:28
Speaker 4: They would love that to be in the case.
19:30
Speaker 2: I am skeptical that that would be the case, but
19:33
Speaker 2: they're going to give it lots of time to find out.
19:36
Speaker 1: This is the part where I want to say, John Denton,
19:38
Speaker 1: you're a great writer. You believe you belong having a
19:42
Speaker 1: full time gig. I hope someone sees this and said,
19:45
Speaker 1: I want to hire that guy. But a right, you're
19:47
Speaker 1: a smart guy. You've seen Walker a lot. What are
19:50
Speaker 1: your thoughts on the best way to get him back
19:52
Speaker 1: to where.
19:52
Speaker 4: He should be?
19:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, due, it's it's ugly so far. I mean, like
19:56
Speaker 3: Jeff said, six for thirty four and all six are singles. Like,
20:00
Speaker 3: you know, the whole reason they tried to change his
20:02
Speaker 3: swing was to get him to lift the ball, to
20:04
Speaker 3: drive the ball more.
20:05
Speaker 4: There's not a.
20:06
Speaker 3: Lot of hard contact so far. So but you know,
20:09
Speaker 3: like if the Cardinals were trying to win this year.
20:12
Speaker 3: I think that this would be a real debate. This
20:14
Speaker 3: is a development year. Jordan Walker has to be at
20:18
Speaker 3: Triple A. I mean, I mean, he has to be
20:19
Speaker 3: in the major leagues. I'm sorry, I misspoked there. He's
20:22
Speaker 3: gonna be in the major leagues. He's gonna have to
20:24
Speaker 3: ride these struggles out, you know, and like Jeff said,
20:27
Speaker 3: until we see a Josh Baz tearing it up, you know,
20:30
Speaker 3: until we see maybe a Chase Chase Davis playing well, Uh,
20:34
Speaker 3: he's gonna get the shots.
20:36
Speaker 1: You know.
20:36
Speaker 3: Lars Newbar is gonna come back at some point, we think.
20:40
Speaker 3: But Jordan's got to figure this out at the big
20:42
Speaker 3: league level. Last year, they sent him to not Triple A.
20:44
Speaker 3: They send him to Double A. They sent him to
20:46
Speaker 3: work with Casey Chinna with kind of a hitting guru.
20:49
Speaker 3: Casey's with the big league club now, So it doesn't
20:51
Speaker 3: really do a lot of good to send him to Memphis.
20:54
Speaker 3: He need they need to see once and for all,
20:56
Speaker 3: can he work his way out of this? Can he
20:58
Speaker 3: find some confidence? Can he do it at the major
21:01
Speaker 3: league level? And you know, if we get to May
21:03
Speaker 3: and he's six for thirty four with six singles, the
21:05
Speaker 3: way he is. Now they're gonna have their answers. But
21:08
Speaker 3: if you send him to Triple A and he struggles,
21:10
Speaker 3: you're still really not gonna know anything. So I think
21:13
Speaker 3: he's got to start at Saint Louis and you got
21:15
Speaker 3: to see if he can find a way to dig
21:16
Speaker 3: out with this.
21:18
Speaker 1: So spring training's fools gold. We all know that if
21:21
Speaker 1: you're hopeful for a guy and he's hitting while you're like, no,
21:23
Speaker 1: that means something. Otherwise he's just working on stuff, right,
21:27
Speaker 1: But let's take Nolan Gorman for example. He's hitting, seems
21:31
Speaker 1: to have found something, So Jeff, is what we're seeing
21:34
Speaker 1: from Nolan Gorman, who's been a little bit more selective
21:37
Speaker 1: shown his power at sprand training? Is this the real deal?
21:42
Speaker 2: He would certainly hope, So, you know, I think the
21:44
Speaker 2: caution with Gorman is sort of this is kind of
21:48
Speaker 2: the hitter he has been throughout his big league career, right,
21:50
Speaker 2: He's been a guy who goes white hot for ten
21:53
Speaker 2: days two weeks and then disappears for the rest of
21:56
Speaker 2: the month and eating it to the end of it,
21:58
Speaker 2: and it looks a little ragged. And so for the Cardinals,
22:01
Speaker 2: it's simply a matter of how do you kind of
22:04
Speaker 2: decrease the interval between those hot streaks. If this is
22:06
Speaker 2: going to be the guy that he is, then it
22:08
Speaker 2: needs to be two weeks on, two weeks off, and
22:10
Speaker 2: not ten days on three weeks off, right, and you know,
22:13
Speaker 2: you get a little more productivity over those times. Being
22:15
Speaker 2: more selective will definitely help. I think it will definitely
22:19
Speaker 2: help Nolan Norman too, to know that he has a
22:22
Speaker 2: spot at third base and not have to sweat where
22:24
Speaker 2: he's going to be in the lineup each and every day.
22:27
Speaker 2: I'm pretty interested to see how the deployment works out
22:31
Speaker 2: throughout the season.
22:31
Speaker 4: With Ramon Noius being a.
22:34
Speaker 2: Guy who's really solid glove, especially at third base, does
22:36
Speaker 2: that give Gorman more DH time and if so, what
22:39
Speaker 2: does that look like? But I think just for Gorman
22:42
Speaker 2: not having to sort of worry about what's the spot,
22:45
Speaker 2: where does it fit?
22:46
Speaker 1: Where?
22:46
Speaker 2: You know, what do I have to do defensively, that
22:49
Speaker 2: can certainly only help, And I think too for Gorman
22:53
Speaker 2: at this point, he I think has a recognition of
22:57
Speaker 2: it's got to work out this season for him or
22:59
Speaker 2: there gonna be some serious questions about kind of where
23:02
Speaker 2: his career path goes from here, right I think I
23:04
Speaker 2: think with with Walker, kind of given his age and
23:06
Speaker 2: given his relative lack of experience, even if it goes
23:09
Speaker 2: south and the Cardinals find themselves thinking that the best
23:11
Speaker 2: thing to do would be going to move on, there
23:13
Speaker 2: are gonna be lots of teams out there who are
23:15
Speaker 2: gonna convince themselves they can do X, Y and Z
23:17
Speaker 2: with Walker and turn him into the player that they
23:19
Speaker 2: think that he can be. With Gorman, I think it's
23:21
Speaker 2: a little more like where he's at in his career.
23:23
Speaker 2: You know, he's approaching arbitration or actually I think he
23:26
Speaker 2: might have been ur one that, but in that, in
23:28
Speaker 2: that that that form of his career, he's getting to
23:30
Speaker 2: a point where it's got to go or it's gonna
23:32
Speaker 2: not go right.
23:33
Speaker 4: And I think he has a recognition of that.
23:35
Speaker 2: Uh And for him, I can imagine that being helpful
23:38
Speaker 2: more than it has been a hindrance.
23:40
Speaker 1: I also think his power to all fields is rare.
23:44
Speaker 1: He's got unique power, and teams will be interested in
23:48
Speaker 1: Nolan Gorman regardless of how things go into really going
23:52
Speaker 1: this season. So John, I want to ask you about
23:55
Speaker 1: Gorman too, Like I think he gets a bad rap
23:57
Speaker 1: because he's one of those guys that. Hey, he's talking
24:00
Speaker 1: about himself. He doesn't love being on camera, but I've
24:04
Speaker 1: talked to him away from the camera. That's a guy
24:06
Speaker 1: who cares. That's a guy who understands the situation he's in.
24:11
Speaker 1: And from what I've seen at spring training, and again
24:15
Speaker 1: we don't know if it's real or if it's illusion,
24:17
Speaker 1: he looks like he found something. What are your.
24:19
Speaker 3: Thoughts, Yeah, Jim, he is a guy who cares. I mean,
24:22
Speaker 3: he works hard at his craft. You've never heard anybody
24:25
Speaker 3: say that. Nolan Gorman is not a hard worker, like
24:28
Speaker 3: he works at this thing. Him and Brent Brown live
24:30
Speaker 3: a couple of streets apart. They work together most of
24:32
Speaker 3: the offseason. He's worked with an independent guy this year,
24:36
Speaker 3: a hitting guru. He's at his best when he's hitting
24:39
Speaker 3: the ball back through the middle, when he's driving that
24:41
Speaker 3: ball to left center. When he's driving the ball to center,
24:43
Speaker 3: that's when he's at his best. He's never going to
24:45
Speaker 3: be a guy that's going to catch up to the
24:47
Speaker 3: high fastball. He's got to learn to lay off of
24:49
Speaker 3: that pitch. He's hit the ball better, building some confidence.
24:54
Speaker 3: You know, you guys kind of touched on this already.
24:57
Speaker 3: The big part of it for him is canny play third.
25:00
Speaker 3: Like Cardinal fans have been spoiled watching one of the
25:02
Speaker 3: greatest third basemen to ever play the game. There were
25:06
Speaker 3: big time mobility issues last year. The Cardinals wanted Gorman
25:11
Speaker 3: to drop some weight. They want him to be more
25:12
Speaker 3: agile at third base. Uh, you know, if he can
25:15
Speaker 3: do what he's doing this spring and then play a
25:18
Speaker 3: good third base, you know, the Cardinals may have something there.
25:21
Speaker 3: And like Jeff pointed out, finally knowing that this is
25:24
Speaker 3: his job every day, that he's gonna get most of
25:27
Speaker 3: the reps at third. He's gonna be the starter just
25:29
Speaker 3: about every game except maybe when the left he's pitching.
25:32
Speaker 3: Hopefully that's got to help him. But he's gotta, you know,
25:35
Speaker 3: he's got to ride these these hot streaks a little further,
25:38
Speaker 3: and he's got to find a way to dig himself
25:39
Speaker 3: out when he becomes just dead pool and when he's guessing,
25:43
Speaker 3: you know, that's when he goes in these major funks.
25:45
Speaker 3: He's got to be the guy that drives the ball
25:47
Speaker 3: back up the middle.
25:48
Speaker 1: And he's got to turn the page on last season
25:50
Speaker 1: because it certainly was a good last thing for you gentlemen,
25:54
Speaker 1: before we let you go and you guys, one of
25:56
Speaker 1: you guys mentioned about where they are if it's a
25:58
Speaker 1: reset or rebuilt. As lanceln and Matt Holliday will point
26:03
Speaker 1: out on this podcast, this was a tear down to
26:06
Speaker 1: the studs. Okay, so they're in a rebuild. I think
26:08
Speaker 1: we can all say that now. But Jeff for the
26:12
Speaker 1: Cardinals say, yeah, it's Tim's job, and you know he's
26:17
Speaker 1: got a hard hat on and you know he's doing
26:19
Speaker 1: some renovation for Ali Marvel who got the extension, and
26:24
Speaker 1: for the Cardinals. What does success look like for the
26:28
Speaker 1: Cardinals this year? Because you're rebuilding at the same time,
26:32
Speaker 1: you want to be competitive. Look, they're going to put
26:35
Speaker 1: new things around the stadium to make it more fan
26:37
Speaker 1: friendly and more fun to go to games. But they
26:40
Speaker 1: also realize they got to give the fans a product,
26:43
Speaker 1: so they have to strike that balance. So what is
26:46
Speaker 1: success for the Cardinals this year? In your view?
26:50
Speaker 2: To me, success for the Cardinals in twenty twenty six
26:53
Speaker 2: is a team that is able to grab some of
26:56
Speaker 2: the energy that they want to be part of the
26:58
Speaker 2: new ballpark experience and that they want to be part
27:00
Speaker 2: of their play style. Success is Victor Scott is a
27:04
Speaker 2: league average hitter or close to it, to go along
27:07
Speaker 2: with all the other tools that he has. Successes Mason
27:09
Speaker 2: Winn takes a step. Success is Matthew Libertorre looks like
27:12
Speaker 2: the guy he's been in spring, which is a guy
27:15
Speaker 2: who pitches at the front of a rotation for pretty
27:17
Speaker 2: much any team in baseball. Success is Dustin May sustains
27:21
Speaker 2: what he's done in spring and becomes a guy that
27:22
Speaker 2: can spin off into multiple additional exciting pieces, you know,
27:27
Speaker 2: as the season wears on. Success for sure is JJ
27:30
Speaker 2: Weatherholt looking like the guy that they think that he is,
27:33
Speaker 2: or at least progressing down that path. It's really hard
27:36
Speaker 2: for me to measure it in terms of team success
27:39
Speaker 2: because I think that there are there are permutations of
27:42
Speaker 2: this season where they win seventy two games and it
27:45
Speaker 2: looks like a success, and they are versions where they
27:47
Speaker 2: win eighty two games and it does not look like one.
27:50
Speaker 4: It's to me going to be more about.
27:52
Speaker 2: Style of play, the kind of buy in that you
27:55
Speaker 2: get into the clubhouse, and the way that they are
27:59
Speaker 2: able to sort of come comfortably vertically integrate. What's going
28:02
Speaker 2: to be a new face and a new face is wrong.
28:07
Speaker 2: But I you know, Benjamin Hofpenrot a column in the
28:09
Speaker 2: Saint Louis Post Dispatch over the weekend that I thought
28:11
Speaker 2: was really was really smart, and he harkened back to
28:14
Speaker 2: and I'm sure both of you remember this, that when
28:16
Speaker 2: the Duits took over following ninety five, heading into the
28:19
Speaker 2: ninety six season, there was this ad campaign about baseball
28:22
Speaker 2: like it ought to be right into harken back to
28:24
Speaker 2: some of the old school things, the grass and the
28:27
Speaker 2: arguing with the umpires and the stealing basis, some of
28:29
Speaker 2: some of the stuff that you think about the terms
28:30
Speaker 2: of old school baseball. But that that, to me, is
28:33
Speaker 2: going to be success for the Cardinals this season. It's
28:35
Speaker 2: going to be establishing an identity as a young, energetic,
28:40
Speaker 2: up tempo team that maybe loses games based on mistakes
28:45
Speaker 2: based on being a little too aggressive or because maybe
28:48
Speaker 2: the talent depth isn't quite there yet, but it needs
28:51
Speaker 2: to be based on that and not based on the
28:53
Speaker 2: same guys making the same mistakes and repeating some of
28:57
Speaker 2: the same kind of ugly look and losses.
28:59
Speaker 4: That we've over the last couple of years.
29:02
Speaker 1: I agree with that. I would say the two most
29:04
Speaker 1: important things energy and improvement, energy and improvement, because I
29:08
Speaker 1: think that's what fans are looking for. How do you
29:11
Speaker 1: see it? Then?
29:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jim, you know it's been three decades since the
29:15
Speaker 3: Cardinals have been through this. Like I'm wondering, is the
29:18
Speaker 3: fan base ready for what's coming because it's rebuilding is hard.
29:23
Speaker 3: Rebuilding guarantees you nothing. There's no such thing as you know, progress,
29:29
Speaker 3: always being up, up up. It's going to be a
29:31
Speaker 3: step up, two steps back, a step two steps up.
29:35
Speaker 1: It could be.
29:35
Speaker 3: Ugly at times, like we're talking about Jordan Walker, like,
29:38
Speaker 3: it could be ugly and fans are gonna have to
29:40
Speaker 3: ride this thing out.
29:42
Speaker 1: You know.
29:42
Speaker 3: Success is JJ Weatherholt looking like a foundational piece that
29:46
Speaker 3: you can build around. Success is Mason win becoming a
29:49
Speaker 3: better all around shortstop. We know he's probably gonna win
29:52
Speaker 3: five or six gold gloves, he may win him all
29:54
Speaker 3: in a row, but can he be that guy offensively
29:57
Speaker 3: that you can hit up higher in the order. Can
30:01
Speaker 3: you finally figure out whether Nolan Gorman is gonna be
30:04
Speaker 3: here long term, Jordan Walker's gonna be her long term?
30:07
Speaker 3: Can you build around those guys? Can you get a
30:09
Speaker 3: Joshua bye As or a Teak hints or Richard fitz
30:12
Speaker 3: to make the leap to the big leagues and stick
30:15
Speaker 3: as a big piece. Can live Ator and lay He
30:18
Speaker 3: and McGreevy. Can you get twelve wins a piece out
30:21
Speaker 3: of all three of those If you can get some
30:23
Speaker 3: of those things, you know, even if it's like Jeff said,
30:27
Speaker 3: even if it's a seventy two win season, if you
30:29
Speaker 3: have those pieces that look like foundational pieces, that's gonna
30:32
Speaker 3: be a success this season.
30:35
Speaker 1: Well, gentlemen, that's gonna do it for us. You guys
30:37
Speaker 1: were great, Jeff. I want to thank you, John Denton,
30:40
Speaker 1: Thank you always a pleasure. John. Someone should see this
30:44
Speaker 1: and hire you right now. Gentlemen, that's gonna do it
30:48
Speaker 1: for this edition of Cardinal Territory. We'll see it for
30:51
Speaker 1: the next episode and hopefully that one won't suck.