Latest / Your Money, Your Rules | Financial Mastery, Wealth Mindset, Leadership Principles, Intuitive Decision-Making, Human Design / #28 Healing Money Trauma and why it's necessary to change our relationship with money (with special guest Shavon Swain)

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#28 Healing Money Trauma and why it's necessary to change our relationship with money (with special guest Shavon Swain) · Your Money, Your Rules | Financial Mastery, Wealth Mindset, Leadership Principles, Intuitive Decision-Making, Human Design

0:00
You're listening to generate a life well lived podcast. I'm your friend and confidant, Erin Gray. I created this podcast for all the generators in the world to inspire you to live a life that you love and desire that is in alignment with who you truly are, not who you. Think you should be. Okay, my beautiful friends, I brought Siobhan back, which we had such an amazing conversation back in episode 23. So if you haven't listened to that, that was all about how to cultivate self compassion and self trust using human design. So I'll put the link in the show notes. You can go listen to that. But today we're going to be talking about. I always say this, I have lots of favorite topics, but money is one of my favorite topics because I think it goes so deep.
0:47
It's like an onion. There's so many layers to it. It affects everything in your life.
0:51
I remember when I was reading the energy of money book, and she said, write down how often you think about money in the first hour of your day. And I just was, like, blown away by how much it consumes us. Right. So, first of all, thank you, Siobhan. For coming back and having thank you for having me. So I've got some questions that I want to talk about, because I think that you are much more an expert in this area. But. If you were to look at my life growing up, I would have termed it. This is probably four years ago. I would have termed it like, oh, I had a great childhood. Right? Like, my parents were married. Yeah. They fought all of these things. Right. And it wasn't until I really started kind of doing some of that self development work that I really started picking apart the pieces and realizing, oh, wait, hang on a second.
1:50
Money trauma is a thing I didn't even know about. Money trauma. I had taken what they call an ace test. And if you want to just elaborate on that here in a second, an ace test. And I scored, like, I don't remember which way it goes. I think it goes low is like, you didn't have much. I can't remember, but I came out like a two or a three, right? And so I was like, I don't understand why I keep having some of these. Almost this in my body. It felt like such fear is what I was like around my money. So do you kind of want to tell the listeners about the ace test, about just all of that in regards to. We take these tests and we're searching for answers. Right. We're trying to evolve and to grow and to figure out where we have these blocks. And I think sometimes the tests are a little bit limited. Right.
2:45
Because I thought, okay, well, I don't have anything. What's wrong with you, Erin? You don't have any trauma per se.
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Yeah. So the AcE test, the acronym actually stands for adverse childhood experiences, and it is limited, like many tools. And before you and I were chatting, I had just taken a look because it's a very standard form, and I think that it gained a lot of popularity, and it does provide good information. I would say what is challenging with any type of tool like this is one. It's limited in just reviewing it today, much about the individual. Right. All of those questions are about a person's experience in their home, and it's kind of like a yes or no.
3:34
And so there is a lot of room for things to be missed, but also the way a person perceives the question. Right. And so one thing I would say is it really does not touch on kind of like the topic you're discussing. It does not touch on financial trauma. It also doesn't touch on anything that's experienced collectively. So if a person grows up in poverty, if a person experiences racism, if a person experiences war. Right. If a person is uprooted, if there are natural disasters, all of those things have profound effects, and they would not be captured in the Aces questionnaire, the traditional one that exists, which, I mean. You think about now, too. I've always talked about collective trauma from the money standpoint of the Great Depression, but I think Covid, now, right, that is now our new 1920s, now 2020. Right. Like the 100 year Great Depression, 1920, now Covid, 2020. Is that collective trauma that. I don't even think we've really felt. It all the way through. You know what I mean?
4:49
We're still going to see the effect of it.
4:52
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. And so when it comes to money, I think that it gets complicated because trauma, we often identify the event, right. And so most things that we ask about are the event, but what gets people is the ongoing response to things that feel similar.
5:18
Right. So there is the event that occurred, and then there is, how do I now interact with the world based on having lived through said event? Another thing with the ASUs study, even some of the questions that seem pretty clear cut, they don't really get to it. So as someone who works with trauma, I can have 15 people who have experienced sex abuse. One person may have experienced it one time. What does that mean in terms of their response?
5:50
But then what does it feel like, if I experienced it for eight years straight, right? What does it feel like if I've experienced it seven times with seven different individuals at different ages of life? And so there's a lot of nuance that comes into account that can't necessarily be captured by a scale. I think that we love questionnaires because we love to say something is evidence based, and we love to really feel like we have an answer.
6:18
Right. And so, again, the ace is great for getting an idea for me as a clinician, an idea of the type of questions I need to inquire about. But it's just that it's kind of like some informative information, but I definitely know that the other things, like, okay, how long did this occur? Because a lot of things with trauma is, how long were you under chronic stress? How much fear were you in if you had to go to sleep and you knew that something was happening almost every night. Right. What happens to the body?
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And what's the body's response? That's so good? Like, I just had. Aha. Right there.
6:59
Right? Because we want to. Is it compartmentalize it? That's what it feels like, right? We want to be like, oh, it just happened. Right, but how long did it happen for? Years and years and years. And even still, if you're still feeling that way, right. Like, if you still haven't worked through it, then you still feel like. It feels like it's a threat. Can you talk about how trauma is stored in the body, how to release trauma? Like, kind of your expertise there. Yeah. So when it comes to trauma, the thing that kind of.
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That I always think about is so much of what we experience is about whether we're safe or not right in the moment. And I know that we do. Like, you see a lot of talk about the brain body connection and this and that. And it's like the brain literally is a part of the body. It literally sends us the signals to walk, to breathe, to move. Right. And so there is a part of me who is just like, what are we talking about? And then there's a part of me that gets what we're talking about. And so I kind of want to start there with a lot of the things around trauma is the brain really recognizing that this situation was unsafe. And when we're not safe, the brain wants us to survive, so it sends messages. That's where we get into, do we run away? Do we freeze? Do we fight?
8:30
Because our brain wants to keep us alive and to keep us safe. And I kind of will joke with folks and say, I know that humans think that because we wear fancy clothes and we can speak, that we are really different from animals, but when it comes to our brain, it's like, is this safe or not? Do I need to run or not? Can I stay? And so when we talk about trauma and the body, I kind of like to think of it as if I've had an experience that felt very unsafe. Let's take a car accident, right? Let's say someone is in a major car accident. You know how abrupt that can be.
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It is scary. A person may not fully remember what happened. The brain recognizes this is what occurred now, how it may impact the person in the future.
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Because a lot of things, when we talk about trauma, it's not so much the event, but it's how we now interact with the world following this event. And so if what happens is that now my brain associates any vehicle with not being safe, what happens is whether or not it's safe. My brain is sending that signal. And so now the next time I go to get in a car, what's happening to my heart rate? Am I tensing up? Am I bracing? Am I anxious? Am I nervous? That's kind of how those messages come, because the brain is recognizing that the vehicle was not safe, but it's continuing to recognize every vehicle as not being safe versus saying that situation was not. And this one is completely different. Yeah. So in terms of money, we probably all grew up with some form. I don't know if I've met anyone in my generation that grew up in a way that money was just such a fun and free flowing and unlimited experience. Right. And if you had parents that were fighting about money and you saw that. Right. That is a threat to your body. Right. Or to your brain every time you go to ask and you got yelled at because you were asking for something. Right, right. So that is such an important thing that for us to have compassion for ourselves. Because I think for me, it was like, why can't I just easily get past this? Or why is this continuing to be an issue for me? Right. I have money. Why is this an issue versus.
11:06
Yeah, but my body. Right. My brain. My body. I know you said this is the same thing. Right. But all of it. Right. It doesn't feel safe. Right. And so when you're helping people kind of work through. Because actually, I want to ask, will you talk a little bit and actually explain the difference of how we actually go into. Because I think for me, probably I felt more so flight, because I would totally avoid my money. It was like this hyper vigilant and then totally avoid it kind of thing. And so do you want to explain the different types of, what do you call them? Like fight, flight, freeze is what. Like the responses. The response.
11:51
Thank you. Yeah. And so I would say the response, how a person gets to a certain response is really going to be subjective and based on that person's position, but in terms of what are the responses? So most of us have heard of these. And I would say with money, it does look a little different because there are definitely folks who, when it comes to money, the freeze or the flight may look like avoidance. This could be someone who absolutely has all of the money in the account to pay a bill, but they just feel like they can't do it. Or when it comes to handling financial matters, they will rather do anything. So there are a lot of avoidance techniques in terms of fight that can look different. Some people have financial trauma and it really looks like overspending, overindulging, like not really having that balance between I have, but what do I need to do to maintain.
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Right. And sometimes that is really coming from a fear of I may not get any more money. Yes. So let me do all the things that I feel like I need to do now. And it really is super subjective as to how it looks, but that fear around money and will I get more money? Another thing that often comes up when a person has experienced any type of financial trauma or they grew up in poverty is long term planning. Right?
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So if you think about what we know about our society and folks in poverty, the way our system works is people can get assistance after they're to nothing.
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Right? So if a family has a situation where somebody becomes unemployed and now they need to seek government assistance, our guidelines are like, you need to be at your last. In order to get. Yes, exactly.
13:48
And what is the message that that's signaling to us? Right. And so even someone who overcomes that still has that mentality because you can't long term plan, you can't say, I'm going to take my family on vacation next year. You're trying to use up what you have now to apply for the next thing, and then you wrap up all of that and then you go to the next thing. And so part of it is a mentality and a way of thinking about planning for the future, because the reason why money can be so hard is, again, we need to feel safe. We live in a society where so much of our safety is dependent upon. Can you afford the things that you need. And so money trauma does impact people because it can impact a sense of safety. Your description of hearing parents argue about money, first of all, when voices are getting louder, children, depending on their disposition, may feel afraid. And if I am afraid, and the topic is money, what's the association I'm making in my brain about money and fear and all of those things impact us. Yeah. I also think about the more that I've learned about human design and how much from a. And I don't have enough data yet, but from the emotional solar plexus, like people that have a defined emotional solar plexus, which my dad does, my mom does not, and how much of that emotional charge, right. Because we all, no matter if you have one defined or not, you have emotions, right? You can generate emotions. And also we have waves that we ride as emotionally defined beings and our counterparts that do not have, or our spouses or our family that don't have a defined solar plexus, we amplify that energy and we send it back out. And so I think about my parents and my dad and then my mom just being this amplification of intense emotion anytime, probably even to this day, right. Anytime that that comes up, it is a heightened topic. And so know, if you do have, and I think we talked about this before, but we have a responsibility, right. As adults, we have a responsibility to, I am saying this from a place of, like, I still fall into this, right. That when you can easily go back into that moment when you flip your lid, right. Like when you are in that reactive mode, it sometimes is difficult, right.
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And also being mindful of how if you're going to sit down and do bills, having that conversation with yourself, right.
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Versus just like, oh, it's time to do bills. And you're just like going through the motions versus pausing and asking yourself, how do I want to feel when I'm going through this versus allowing that reactiveness. And I also think you talked about this, you said that we're really no different than animals, but how many of us have actually gotten that out of us, right? Like that trauma, how stored in the body, right? Like when you see an antelope or a zebra get chased by a lion, but they don't get eaten, they literally have that shake off. And so what, do you encourage clients to do that obviously working with you? And if you want to do some things on your own, what are some things that you can do to kind of release some of that stuff? Yeah, absolutely. And I love the example you gave because I have literally told people to shake. Right. Relax your arms, shake, because it is energy, and it does, in a way, get trapped in a body. And a lot of things that we do in our society when someone is in pain is really try to encourage them to repress it. Right. How many times do you hear someone tell a child, well, don't cry about that, or it's not that bad, or it's okay. And what's often happening is so many of us are uncomfortable with certain emotions, which literally can be anything except happiness. Right. Name another emotion, somebody's uncomfortable with it. So we're uncomfortable with these other emotions.
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And so if someone comes to me and they're crying and I am so uncomfortable with their tears, most of our responses are to try to make ourselves comfortable in the moment. Yes. So a part of it could be just allow people to cry or for people to allow themselves to cry. How many people stop themselves in the. Midst of releasing or try to schedule it? Right. Exactly. Even for me, I work as a therapist, and I can't tell you the number of times somebody's like, well, I just really didn't want to cry. And I'm always like, where did you think you were going? What did you think we were going to be doing? Right, like, coming into your office. Coming into your office. And they're like, I didn't want to cry. Yes. And it's always like, why is that the thought? But I do believe that it's because it's uncomfortable. We are afraid of judgment. We are afraid of all of these things. But after a traumatic event, and I have definitely done acute trauma work where something has just happened, there has just unfortunately been a shooting or something. And I am on the scene, I'm talking to folks. And sometimes it is like encouraging people to get things out, simple things. Like, if we're here and we're talking, can we walk while we do it? Can we incorporate some movement? I'm trained in EMDR, and definitely I get referrals where it's not immediate, but it's happened within the past few weeks or a month. And it's really working on processing that memory, processing that experience, because when we have a traumatic experience, the parts of our brains that make sense of what happens often go offline. And so a part of the work is sometimes trying to go back in and can we make sense of it? And I also think it's important to note that there can tend to be this idea that having done the work or having healed or made progress means I'm not impacted by things. And I feel like I have to tell people all the time, that's not the goal. I'm not saying that we're going to talk or we're going to do these things, and the next time you have a memory of something horrible, you're going to feel great about it. Like, that's not the goal, or you're not going to feel anything. The goal is, how do I sit with those feelings? Right? Am I being overtaken by them? Am I being overly reactive? And sometimes if our reactivity to something is an eight, can we get it down to a three? Because can you tolerate a three? Can you implement an intervention? Can you do some breathing exercises that can help you get down from a three to a one? And so I really like to kind of help people understand that this needs to be incremental. Having emotions does not mean that you're not well, normally it means that you're human. But we don't want to feel overtaken or overcome by our emotions or our emotional response. And so part of it is that cycle education of what's your baseline? What's your window of tolerance? Are we within that? Are we outside of it? And how can we kind of get you to a place to where we're within your window of tolerance? Because some things in life are going to unfortunately be uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean that we're not. Well, a lot of our responses make sense for the situation. I love what you said about intensity, right. Because I honestly thought, like, okay, that there would be a point in time that I wouldn't feel what I was feeling, right. Versus the intensity just isn't there anymore. Sometimes it does come up and I see it. Yes. And I sit with it and I breathe through it, and I'm like, okay. But right now, everything okay? Everything's okay. Okay. Just like, almost like from this place of lovingly, like, oh, this is just also maybe a practice pattern too, right? I don't know if that's, this happens. Brain and body does this. It's just almost like neural pathway, right? Maybe of like, this is the action, or this is what you get presented with, and then this is how we respond. And really just seeing, has the intensity gone down? And I want you to talk about the window of tolerance, because I never knew about that until I actually took a course called the trauma of money, and they talked about the window of tolerance. And so for those of us that may not know what that is, can you explain or talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, hopefully, I don't mess this up because I haven't even thought about the windows tolerance for a while. It's one of those things that I'm.
23:24
Aware of it when I'm witnessing it with the client, but to explain it. But I would say I can give a personal example that I think may be helpful. So we're talking about trauma and things that are super activating. I don't like the dentist. The avoidance just comes full speed when it comes to the dentist. And I, of course, know this. And so I had a conversation with myself, like, okay, we must go. We know what this is like. And it was really just me, in a way, kind of preparing myself for it. But then in the moment, what did I do? And so I got to a point to where I definitely could feel that my body was activated. Right? I'm sitting there, I can feel my heart going. My brain is starting to think random things, like, well, this drill could go all the way into your head. Like, all of these things that intellectually I know they're irrational in the moment, my body is like this. I believe it's not safe, right? And so it got to a point to where me operating within my window of tolerance was. I was able to make it to the appointment. I was able to walk in. I was able to sit down. I was okay. But as those waves and those thoughts started to come, it was me, one having an internal conversation of, okay, I feel that my heart rate is going up. I know that I am super anxious, and I'm super nervous. And really checking in with my body and doing a body scan. And a body scan is really just bringing attention to the top of the head and going all the way down to the tip of the toes and noticing.
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And, like, my shoulders were here and my hands were like this. And so it was me noticing and then relax. Right. Now, I know that in an ideal world, I would do that once and it would be fine. That's not what actually happens, because I relax.
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And then a few minutes later, I would do another body scan, and I was back tense.
25:20
And I did that about three times before I was able to get to a point to where I remained relatively relaxed, to where I was not super tense. I was definitely very much looking forward to everything being done, but I was okay. I could tolerate that level of distress. Had I been outside of my window of tolerance, I may have had to leave. I may have canceled the appointment beforehand, or I may have never scheduled it. And so it's kind of like, how can I remain present in this moment without going to one of those responses such as fleeing or freezing.
26:00
Yeah. And I think for those of you, that money is a sensitive topic. I think it's like, and we've said this before on the previous podcast, and it's like starting small. Right. I think the window of tolerance, sometimes we want to really expand and it's too far outside that tolerance. Right. And so the body shuts down versus, okay. Like, having the expectation of, like, okay, I'm just going to go to the dentist, and maybe I'm just going to walk in the door today. Just using that as an example. Right, exactly.
26:34
And then your body gets to see, like, okay, well, it was a little tense, but I was okay. And then going back and like you said, and then sitting in the chair. And so with money, it might just be, you know what? Today, all I'm going to do is just literally log into my bank account and watch my body and then log off.
26:55
Absolutely. And then building up that window of tolerance of like, okay. And then next week, I'm going to log in and I'm just going to see everything that I've used my money on. Right. And just notice those sensations and feelings in my body come up sometimes. And I don't know if this is the overachiever in us or what.
27:19
It's like we see where we are and then we're like, oh, well, we need to be all the way over here. Absolutely. Versus like, no, it's just a little bit. Because when we try to go from zero to 100, most of us don't have the capacity to stick with it on a long term basis, and that's really what we want to be able to do.
27:42
Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like sometimes when we try to go right to the end, it can be a set up for failure. And I will sometimes tell folks, like, what's one thing you can do that is just a step in the direction that we're heading. And when we talk about money, sometimes I like to have people consider questions, like, think about the last time you had to log into your bank account. And then we do a body scan. And I may say, where do you feel any distress in your body? And a person may say, you know what? Immediately my heart's racing. Or I can feel it in the pit of my stomach. And then I may ask, okay, and this would be me guiding them to some breathing techniques, having their eyes closed, if that's comfortable for them, and then saying, if you think about your heart rate and what you're feeling, what emotion or thought is tied to that.
28:35
And a person may say, I'm just afraid.
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Right. And really kind of figuring out what is it that we're feeling? Because you mentioned this earlier, that, and I completely agree. Most of us have a pattern, right. We have a way that we respond to certain things. And for a lot of people, fear, they're going to feel it in their chest. They're going to feel sadness in their chest. For a lot of people, nervousness, anxiousness, they're going to feel it in their stomach. Right.
29:01
And so really having a person learn their patterns, because I will say that what I didn't mention about my visit to the dentist is I knew what was happening because I know that when my chest goes like that, it's communicating this particular type of fear for me. And so I'd already identified my pattern, so it was a little bit easier to know what to do. But in terms of money, how do you feel when you think about money? What beliefs do you have about money? What were you taught explicitly or maybe not? Right. What did you observe within your family about how they talk about money? Because a lot of these things and a lot of our feelings are based upon what we learned, observed, and were told by our. Yeah. And our parents.
29:50
Our parents, they were the safety for us.
29:53
Right. Whoever your caregiver was, that was the safety. And so our little minds attach, like safety to this. This has to be true and factual. I don't know if it's just because that's the way the self development world has gone or it's just.
30:08
But there's lots of. From scarcity to abundance. And I just want to say to each of you that there is no rush. You know what I mean? I feel like that I used to feel this way. You said something about the feeling like I was so unpracticed in feeling the fear. I wanted to feel what abundant felt like, right. Versus becoming really practiced in just feeling that fear and getting. We talked about the intensity, but the more that I felt it, I taught my body I wasn't going to die from it. It was okay to feel that versus. I think sometimes we want to get to the end because it's almost like a moving away from versus a moving towards. Right. And so we don't like feeling the fear. We don't like what that feels like in our body versus practicing what that actually feels like in our body to then minimize or lower that intensity of it. Yeah, I completely agree. And we often just want.
31:18
A lot of times people take action because they just want the feeling to stop. Yes.
31:22
Right. It's what do I need to do to get rid of this discomfort? And if we were to bring in human design, when a person has an open root center, that pressure that is felt, it's almost like it's building. And then there is an urgency to act. Yes. And that's tricky. Right. Because what am I acting on? If I'm purely acting just to get this sense of urgency to be done, I can miss some things. Right. And so I think that pressure and that feeling of I want this fear to stop, because, again, fear is one of those emotions that we've identified as bad. Right. Emotions are neutral. And I have this conversation with folks and there are people who disagree and they're like, well, anger. I'm like, anger is an emotion that's neutral. Now, a person who is anger that leads behavior that's problematic. Right. But anger in itself, I can be angry about something and just sit here. Yes. But it's also communicating how I like my state in response to something. When you say neutral, what I interpret you to mean by that is like, there are not good or bad emotions. Right, exactly. They're not good or bad. And also on the vibrational scale of frequency of what it feels like in our body, anger has a lower frequency vibration. But the neutrality, it's like whether you feel fear or anger or guilt or shame or joy. Neutrality from the sense of like, it's fine, right? It doesn't matter.
33:11
Yes, absolutely. And I feel like each one is communicating something to us if we were to start thinking about. And I actually will talk to folks. Okay. If you think about your anger as a vessel of communication, what is it communicating to you? What is your sadness communicating to you? What is this moment of anxiety communicating to you? What is the happiness communicating to you? Because it's us receiving messages about how we're interacting with something, with some person, with some place. It is communication. And I think that because there is a lot of discourse, right, in our society about the behaviors, because if someone is angry and they tend to become abusive, we don't like the abusive behavior. But anger gets so tied to it that we don't realize that there's actually within that a little bit of a space where a person could feel angry and choose to do ABC or D. And so I get why we have that. But I also really encourage people, especially if they're doing their own self work, have some compassion with yourself if you feel anger, because you may just need to explore, what does this anger communicate? Yeah. You wrote down the or I wrote down the emotions, like, what is it communicating to us? And I think we have been in this society of like, oh, everything's fine. We feel so great. Like, we want to feel that joy all of the time. I don't know what your belief is, but I'm like, literally, that cannot happen. I mean, I don't know. We are a human, right? We are going to feel. And so the same thing, like, with scarcity to abundance, it's like, what is that scarcity trying to show you? What is that communicating to you to tune into. Right.
35:10
So with our emotions of allowing them to be there versus thinking, we have to get rid of them as quickly as possible and run away from them. Do you want to talk a little bit about generational and intergenerational trauma and the difference between the two and how it actually kind of gets passed down? Yeah.
35:32
So I would say I don't know if there's a huge difference. I feel like most of us are using them interchangeably. And what we often look at is, again, what's the messaging? What's the language? How do people talk about things? And then how does that influence the next generation?
35:54
Right? Because again, we're all learning from our caregivers and our parents. We're learning from our grandparents, and they learn from theirs and they learn from theirs. And so a lot of times we can find patterns of belief that has been passed down from great grandparents to grandparents, grandparents to parents, parents to child. And then that child has to decide what they're passing down to their children. And I think that a common example is many of us in childhood said we would never do something that our parents did. How many of us have said, when I'm a parent, right? Yes, me too. When I become a mom, I am never going to do this. And I absolutely meant it, and I absolutely still did it. Why? Because we are learning and we are absorbing and some things we're just not aware that we have developed a belief system or a thought. And when it comes to money, if you have grown up in a home where you don't really have it also can impact your self worth. Right? How do we talk about people in our society who do not have things? What is the messaging?
37:07
How are they treated? How do we view them?
37:09
So oftentimes that becomes heavily impacting a person's belief in what they can achieve and of what they, it can also be that we just grimped and saved. And so I now, as an adult, I just Grimmpton save.
37:26
Right? Sometimes we don't even question why we do things sometimes it could be I never had anything as a child. So now I'm going to get myself everything I want, right? And it really does come to those experiences, those messages. And then what are we translating it to mean about our lives? What things do we keep the same?
37:47
What things do we try to do differently?
37:51
And also it can just be lack of information. Families who don't usually have a lot of money, they don't know how to navigate things. So let's say they now have someone who has money. They have no idea what to do with it. We see this a lot when we talk about athletes or people who became really successful. And folks are like, how did they squander away all this money? And it's like, did they know what to do with it? Right. Because some of that is taught. You see folks who maybe they don't have the most money, but they came from a family that was okay and who had conversations about money, no matter what they have, they have some idea of what to do with it, versus someone who knows nothing. I love what you said about the self worth because you always hear like, your self worth equals your net worth, which I totally say is bs because I felt like I had a high net worth and I had low self worth. It's just so many ways that we can look at what are those stories that we have been taught, right. It's almost like this binary or duality thinking, right?
38:57
And it's like, it's not. You can find someone with whatever that saying is, and you can find the opposite to be true, too.
39:05
And so I also wrote down the capacity to have, and I don't think a lot of us are taught the capacity to have. Right. So if you were someone who had money, didn't have money, then got money. Again, it might be a. And I shouldn't say got money, right? But it's like how you generated your money. You haven't built up that capacity like you were talking about the athletes or like people you always hear about lottery winners. It's like that capacity to be that person that just has that amount of money. And I think we do this obviously, unconsciously, but we will find ways to use or spend that money.
39:46
Because if you have a belief of I'm going to lose it, all right, then you will figure out a way to get rid of it unconsciously. Right. Like, we don't do this knowingly. Right. And so really practicing having the amount of money that you have, appreciating the amount of money that you have before. It's like if you get a raise or you have more income in your business or whatever, it's like, we don't have to go do anything right now. Right.
40:14
Like just having that amount of money to practice for our nervous systems. Right.
40:21
Because we have this thermometer, right, of where we are at the lowest or where we are at a highest. And that kind of goes back to window of tolerance. Right. So really expanding that at a way that feels really nourishing and not so quickly to our nervous system. Absolutely, yeah.
40:42
Because we do have to acclimate, right.
40:44
Every time we have a new change in our life, whether it's. Especially if it's money, there does need to be a period of time for us to acclimate and to understand. What does this amount even mean? Some of us don't even know. Right.
40:58
What does this even mean for me? Sometimes people think that a number means more than it does. Sometimes they think it means less. And so asking ourselves some questions and even. I'm a big fan of rituals and routines. So if I have some anxiety about money and I really want to avoid checking my bank account, what can I do to make the experience more pleasurable, right? Can I put on some music? Do I have a cup of tea? Do I light a candle? Because, again, we're taking the information all the time. It's so much about calming our bodies and connecting with our bodies. We often forget about our sense of smell. We forget about our sense of sound. What things can I bring in that feel soothing to me to help me get this task done? Yeah. And the thing, too, that I have, what I had to do was change the word money because it was so triggering to me to currency. Or even sometimes I would be like, oh, if I had this many trees, what would I think? You know what I mean?
41:57
Just, like, just getting your body or away from that money immediately has this can, right? It can have this tenseness in your body versus, like, if I had that many tissue boxes in my house, what would I think? How we have even just associated the word with money. And I think my biggest thing is empowering. It's like we actually created this. I think we sometimes forget this. The reason why money even exists is because we were tired of hauling all of the goats for one cow to exchange. And so coming back to. It's a tool. We're the owners, but in our bodies, right? If we don't feel safe, it doesn't feel like that. And so having the compassion, and then also when you aren't in the heightened state, like you said, with your rituals, and you're actual pondering and thinking about it, like giving yourself space and time to think about. How do I actually want to think and feel about money? And how much have I been running on a program around money? Yeah, absolutely. And I think understanding what our thoughts are, right. Because there are some times where I have actually told people, I don't actually think you need to think about this anymore. Make a decision, a small one, and see what happens. Because another element of this is self trust. Can I trust myself to make good financial decisions? Can I trust myself to know what my limits are, to not know what my limits are? Because sometimes a person's financial trauma has come from, they made a poor decision and they've just never moved past it. Right. They made one decision and they were okay. They were well, but maybe they lost some money.
43:55
Right. And how we often will just continue to beat ourselves up about it. And so the financial trauma can come from that. That person could have grown up, or they had money, they still have money, but they've lost some self trust, and now they're a little bit more hesitant, and the impact of that decision just continues to reverberate in their lives. And so sometimes it's really getting to a place of identifying what was the thing that is making me have this response. And so what do I need to build up to decrease how reactive I feel to this or how triggering certain. Terms are that's so good. Of the self trust. I was just talking to a friend about this the other day, and there's the logical part of, like, okay, it is a choice, right? Because it is a decision, right? Like, when you're like, just make a decision, it's like, okay, I'm going to decide to trust myself. And there's also that in your body, you don't feel that. So there feels like sometimes that tension, right. With, yes, I want to trust myself, but I don't. And so, like, how we said before in the previous podcast of just starting small, just starting with things that, you know, you're going to deliver on and building up that evidence for yourself of, like, look what you did there. Yeah, I think that's really powerful, too.
45:20
Absolutely. I completely agree. The only thing, and I think we kind of hit on this, is steps that you can take to stop the continuation. I think sometimes we can beat ourselves up, because here we are again as parents, and we're kind of acting out what our parents did, or we're in that. And so sometimes awareness happens after the fact, and so never underestimating the repair that we can have with our children after. Right. Like, okay, mom was in a heightened state. I'm really sorry. I'm working on it.
45:53
Acknowledging it is such a powerful thing and then being aware. And I think at least I started out thinking, like, oh, now I know this. Okay, I'm going to catch it before I do it. Versus. No, we actually learn by still doing the thing that we want to change. Yes, exactly. And then we get to see, okay, in this moment, this is how I handle it. And now I know. Yeah, absolutely. I would say understanding our thoughts or beliefs. Right. About money. I think that's a big piece. Most of us know whether we have some issues with money. We know if we spend too much, we know if we're a little too hesitant, like, we have a very hard time spending anything. So most of us have that. And I think really getting to that place of self exploration where it isn't tied to judgment, it isn't tied to, I should be doing this, but really a place of curiosity of, I knew that Bill was due and I didn't pay it.
47:00
What was I thinking? What am I even feeling right now as I remember this experience and really coming from that place of having some compassion for ourselves? And I know sometimes people will say, I don't want to be too compassionate with myself because then I won't do anything. We've got to stop saying that. Because a lot of times we feel like we can only grow or learn through being hard on ourselves, through that tough love. Right? And I can be compassionate with myself and hold myself accountable. Right? Two things can exist at the same time. I can be compassionate with myself and still do what I need to.
47:48
And so having that compassion, I think, is going to be important. But then thinking about what are our beliefs, what have I learned? What do I want my relationship with money to look like, to feel like, and what steps need to be taken to get there?
48:05
When we talk about children, I know you and I kind of discussed this last time, but we're talking specifically about human design. But if you have a child who has some type of split definition, even if they don't, but especially if they do, are you having conversations with them so that they understand what's happening? I have kids. I have talked to my kids about money because I know I didn't get those conversations. And as I learned some things, I would literally say I learned this right, and I would share that with them, and I would have those conversations and talking about things this is how much things cost. A lot of parents feel like they don't want to tell their kids those things. And then kids get older and they're shocked at the cost of laundry detergent. They have no idea why is so much money. They're shocked at all of these things. And so information is important, and it can be as simple as having conversations, starting your kids off with, of course, like, accounts and all of those things. But a lot of people do that and don't have the conversation.
49:12
Yes, the learning piece is important. When you said compassion, I used to think compassion and condoning it doesn't.
49:19
Right. It's very separate. Compassion just means, like you just said, okay. It's just a loving lens of speaking to ourselves and also holding ourselves accountable, responsible for the things that we. The other thing is, I can't tell you how many times I hear people say, I can't afford it, or it's so expensive. And just watching your language and choosing, like, I always tell my kid, I'm just choosing not to spend my money on that because I don't want to, or I don't value that. Or it's such a, like, I can't afford it, or it's too expensive to me, feels very disempowering. Versus you could choose to not pay your mortgage and buy whatever.
50:00
Right? It's a choice. And so I think if we can start to change that language around, like, I can't afford it versus I'm choosing not to pay for it in this moment, then our children also get to see that they have a choice, too. Right? Versus, oh, this is just the way that it is. We can't right now. Versus I'm just choosing not to do that at this time. Yeah. Or it's not in my budget right now. Right. Because if I say right now, it leaves the possibility that it may be in the future.
50:30
And one thing I would like to add when it comes to parenting, specifically, because I think this is something that. And I hate that I'm bringing this in at the last minute, but I think this is something that really impacts children that folks do not realize. Parents who talk about money in front of their kids and whose reason for not having money is their children is very harmful. Like, the number of people who literally feel guilty for being born because they were a financial strain on their kids. And so I think being mindful of the language that we use, like, I have a child in out of state college at a private school, and I am like, I will never tell him that I'm sick of paying tuition. He's not going to listen to this podcast, but I'm sick of paying his tuition because you know what I think about? I could be in Paris. I am not in Paris because I chose to pay for my child's tuition. Right. But I'm not going to say that to him because I don't want him to feel like it's a burden and it is my choice. But you still. Right? Because I know that I hate the fact that I have student loans. Yes. And I do not want that. Right. This is my choice, and I am willing to be accountable for my choice.
51:48
But I think parents who are struggling financially who say things like, well, I can't do it because I'm a single mom. I can't do this because of the kids. Well, I can't do that because of the kids. That is so damaging and so harmful. And it's not recognized as a harm, but it is because what you're sending, like, the message that the child is often receiving is that I am a burden. My parents would be better off if I was not here. And it is a sense of responsibility for an adult decision that a child should not have to carry. And then the last piece to this. Because I just want to pause you real quick, okay?
52:30
No, only because I'm like, preach. I'm just like. I can think of so many people that have told me exactly what you have said. And so I just want. My heart is just like, for so many people. Right? Like, you aren't a burden. Your parents just didn't know how to convey the words that they needed their money struggles. You're not a burden. And I'm just so glad you said that because so many people have said that.
53:08
Right. What you just said has come from so many people I know. And they're like. And they're 40, 50, 60 years old, right? Yeah.
53:16
They're not young. Right. Their parents themselves, who still feel like a burden, and it again impacts their self esteem, their sense of self worth, and their own anxiety about money. And so, yeah, that is something that I feel like is not talked about a lot. The way we speak in front of children and the way we often blame kids for our state of being when they did not ask to be here. Okay. And so then the last thing that I was going to add is just because with the holidays coming, I know this is super popular and I will own this.
53:52
This is my own pet peeve. Other people may feel differently. This is coming from the lens of someone who does a lot of childhood trauma work. Right. And when people come to the holidays and they're like, oh, my kid's gift is the stove, the door, the housing. Right. Like for Christmas, your gift is that you get to live here. Right. That I am meeting your basic needs. That is not a gift. Because my question is, so what? You didn't have kids. You were going to live outside. No.
54:21
You would have a place to stay, and your children live with you because you chose to have them. That's my own personal pet peeve. That is so good. But it's tied it to the original statement. Yes, because kids feel guilty for existing. And when a parent says, well, I provide you with housing, that's your responsibility to provide a child with housing. That's the most basic level. Right. And you chose to have these kids. So, yes, you provide them with housing because they're yours. I'm so glad you said that because that is probably our parent generation. Right. And maybe even our generation might still even say that at times. And so the message you are sending to your children is like, you are not enough. Right. Do not take up space. And we are trying. Right. Our generation and all of the other ones that we're trying to teach that are coming from us. Right. We're trying to teach it like, it's safe to take up space. It's safe to ask for what you want. You're worthy of having what you want. You deserve to have everything that you want in this one precious life. And so I think that that is such a potent thing that you said, because obviously it's like an onion and unraveling, but you see it. Because I know lots of people that have said that to me.
55:52
And. It'S almost like the words that come to mind is like, that's not your burden to bear. Yeah. And kids are caring so much.
56:05
And I know that some people are joking.
56:08
Right. But we're not. Right. I've always said not joking. Right. Because you're saying, and does a child understand that?
56:15
That's the thing. Right. Children can have different cognitive capacities. They may have a different understanding. They may be neurodivergent. They may have a ton of things going on to where what they're left holding is the burden of an adult's financial responsibilities. And so is there some truth to it? Yes. Right. My bills are definitely higher because I have kids and dogs. Definitely higher. But that's a choice I decided to make. And so we kind of have to, as adults, be accountable for it and to not pass that on to kids when they don't have the capacity to hold it. And this is ultimately right about empowerment. Right. Like, you could choose to not pay for your son's education if that's what you really wanted to do.
57:06
Right. And I think that a lot of people, like you said, the first message was like, we want to blame because we don't want to take the responsibility. We don't want to own up to either having the hard conversation, feeling the feelings that we may not want to feel. Right. Versus blaming. And we didn't talk about it, but blaming, to me, comes up with the fight response. Right. Like, we get angry and we want to blame someone versus taking that ownership and responsibility and saying, I'm choosing this right. In this moment, this is what I'm choosing now, it may be different down the road, but in this moment, this is what I've chosen. Yeah.
57:50
And I think a lot of parents do feel that way. That's one thing I do want to add. I do think that there's a true feeling of.
57:58
Because children come at a cost. Right.
58:00
Like, we cannot deny that that's a fact.
58:02
And so I think it is. So many people want their experience to be seen. Right. But can you talk about this with your friend?
58:15
Yeah. Let's be more mindful of our audience. And I'm saying that to say that I am probably going to complain about paying for things with my own kids, I'm just not going to complain to them about it because that is not something they need to hear. And my friends will get it.
58:37
Right. I could have this conversation with you, and you and I would get it, and we would both know that. I don't mean that my child is a burden, but it's funny because it's expensive. But a child with an undeveloped brain and who really, children are so quick to take responsibility for things, they're just not the ones to have the conversation with. That's so good that you said that, too. Because in this book, mind over money, they called it financial incest. And that's basically as an adult, I don't know what the age is. I mean, we know where the prefrontal cortex, I think it becomes firmed around age 26. Right.
59:15
Really, as parents, as a rule or boundary or whatever, we should not be sharing intimate financial details or talking to your children in these ways because they do not have the brain fully formed in order to have that same conversation that you and I could as adults. And I think that we try to do that sometimes as parents either. If you're a divorced and you're having that whole situation happen, or you don't have a marriage where you talk about it and so you're wanting to share that with your child. There are those boundaries, I think, as. Parents, that we need to put on. Ourselves to find a friend. If it's not your spouse, who can you go and talk to about money things so that your children are not the one that bear the brunt of those money? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great point.
1:00:09
And just there are developmentally appropriate ways to talk about money with kids at all ages. My kids are not young.
1:00:17
My oldest is about to be 23. My youngest is 20. So I can definitely have those conversations with them. Yes. But I am mindful of not feeling like my choice.
1:00:32
Something that not just me, my husband and I decided to do. Like, they need to feel bad about it. Right. And so just being mindful of who do I talk to? And like you said, financial incest is a thing. You and I talked about parents and conversations with kids, and sometimes we don't realize what we're saying or the fact that their brains can't handle it. Yeah. So good. So where can people find you? Thank you for coming. Where can people find you? Yeah, so the best place to find me is on my instagram page at. Sincerely, Siobhan. I also have a website that is ww, thehealingloungellc.com. And that's where you can find me. Always a pleasure. Such a great conversation. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for having me. If you want to take this work deeper and receive one on one support while you are coming back home to yourself, breaking old patterns while having fun on your journey, I might be your girl. You can head over to my website to schedule a call. And as always, from my