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Killer Thriller Docu: A Father’s Fight Against Hazing and the Film Bringing the Crisis to Light · Legally Brunette

0:12
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Killer Thriller DOCU edition. I'm your host,
0:15
Speaker 1: Jennifer Fessler. Today we're discussing four thousand Days. It's a
0:19
Speaker 1: powerful new documentary premiering at the Tribeca Film Festival next week. So,
0:24
Speaker 1: this film follows three families who lost their sons to
0:27
Speaker 1: fraternity hazing and refuse to let those tragedies be forgotten.
0:30
Speaker 1: Their year's long fight for accountability and legislative reform became
0:34
Speaker 1: a movement that is helping reshape the conversation around hazing
0:38
Speaker 1: in America. Joining us our director Danielle Catulo, who brings
0:41
Speaker 1: this remarkable story to the screen, and advocate Gary Diversely,
0:45
Speaker 1: whose son Gary Junior died in a fraternity hazing act.
0:49
Speaker 1: Carrie has since dedicated himself to raising awareness and fighting
0:52
Speaker 1: for change to help prevent other families from experiencing the
0:55
Speaker 1: same loss. Daniel Gary, thank you guys so much for
0:59
Speaker 1: joining us. Thank you for much having us, really, And
1:03
Speaker 1: of course I want to start out by saying, Gary,
1:05
Speaker 1: I am so sorry for your unimaginable loss, and you know,
1:09
Speaker 1: I'm happy to be able to say that. From watching
1:13
Speaker 1: the documentary, I feel like I now know Gary Junior
1:17
Speaker 1: a little bit, and I love that part of it,
1:20
Speaker 1: you know, I love it's such a hard, difficult, tragic story.
1:24
Speaker 1: But also being able to see the kids and hear
1:26
Speaker 1: about the kids and the way that you guys describe them,
1:29
Speaker 1: that was joyful. I love that I can say that
1:31
Speaker 1: I know about him a little bit. I wish that
1:33
Speaker 1: I had known him, but I am again, I can't
1:36
Speaker 1: imagine what you've been through. So I guess we'll just
1:39
Speaker 1: jump in you guys. I guess you know, Daniel, what
1:43
Speaker 1: how did you learn about Gary Junior's story? And you've
1:47
Speaker 1: been advocating I think you know, for anti hazing law
1:51
Speaker 1: for a while. I know you've been involved with several docs, right.
1:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean almost a decade now. And I kind
1:57
Speaker 2: of fell into it. I didn't, I never and this
1:59
Speaker 2: was no. I never intended for this to be kind
2:02
Speaker 2: of my cause, and I was just trying to help
2:05
Speaker 2: my alma mater out. I went to West Virginia University
2:07
Speaker 2: and I do a lot of stuff at the university.
2:10
Speaker 2: I mean, I mainly do music stuff for a living,
2:12
Speaker 2: so yeah, kind of outside of my wheelhouse. But I
2:15
Speaker 2: stepped up to help them after kidnamed Nolan Birch died
2:18
Speaker 2: at WWU. We made an educational film and it was
2:23
Speaker 2: just supposed to be something to help, you know, alert
2:25
Speaker 2: people to bystander awareness laws and you know, just raise
2:30
Speaker 2: awareness to what's going on. And what happened is it
2:32
Speaker 2: kind of opened up this can of worms where it
2:34
Speaker 2: went viral and all of a sudden I entered this
2:37
Speaker 2: world with all these other families reaching out to them,
2:40
Speaker 2: including the diversities. I got to know all these other families,
2:42
Speaker 2: and they told me the exact same thing happened to
2:44
Speaker 2: her son. I mean, Gary says that at the beginning
2:46
Speaker 2: of our movie in a press conference he did about
2:50
Speaker 2: a decade ago now, it said, the circumstances of their
2:52
Speaker 2: deaths are you really similar? And it's true because the
2:55
Speaker 2: same thing is happening over and over to these boys.
2:58
Speaker 2: And when I saw that, I'm like, I started the
3:00
Speaker 2: question what is happening? Because I was a Greek in college.
3:03
Speaker 2: I was a sigepe at WU and it was the
3:05
Speaker 2: biggest fraternity at WVU at the time, and I was
3:09
Speaker 2: hazed and I hate others. I was once part of
3:10
Speaker 2: the problem, but we weren't doing anything like what's happening now.
3:14
Speaker 2: When I started peeling the layers of the onion back
3:16
Speaker 2: and hearing all their stories, I was like, Okay, someone
3:19
Speaker 2: has to come out and take this on and be
3:21
Speaker 2: a voice. And I felt like I was the right
3:23
Speaker 2: guy to do that, because when I'm from New Jersey
3:26
Speaker 2: and I don't I don't back down anybody, but not intimidate.
3:30
Speaker 2: I get death threats, I get. I mean, it's insane
3:33
Speaker 2: threats all the time. You know, people are you know
3:37
Speaker 2: that the fraternity system is kind of scared of me. I'm,
3:39
Speaker 2: you know, uncovering the truth out there, and they are
3:41
Speaker 2: covering these boys desks up. They know what's happening, they
3:45
Speaker 2: know what they're doing is dangerous, and they still allow
3:47
Speaker 2: it to happen. And and so I figured, if someone's
3:50
Speaker 2: going to be the voice, then if it's me, so
3:51
Speaker 2: be it. And so that's what I'm doing.
3:54
Speaker 1: I feel like I hear the stories on the news
3:58
Speaker 1: over and over again, and I I know that I'm
4:00
Speaker 1: only hearing I'm sure, and I'm sure Gary you could
4:03
Speaker 1: attest to this, but you know, a tiny little drop
4:06
Speaker 1: of what's really going on out there. My daughter graduated
4:10
Speaker 1: from the University of Delaware and I was talking to
4:11
Speaker 1: her a little bit about it and she saw so much.
4:15
Speaker 1: There's so much social media and taping of these boys
4:18
Speaker 1: being you know, I don't know what word to use,
4:22
Speaker 1: but tormented for lack of a better word. And Gary,
4:26
Speaker 1: you know, obviously unfortunately firsthand. Okay, so you guys met.
4:32
Speaker 1: How did you two connect?
4:33
Speaker 2: Originally that Julie first. So right after breeding old and
4:38
Speaker 2: Breathe kind of blew up, I had other families calling
4:41
Speaker 2: me and I started working on other small films. I
4:44
Speaker 2: was just going to do a bunch of educational films,
4:45
Speaker 2: and I started realizing the scope of the problem. So
4:49
Speaker 2: it was about a year after I met the Birches
4:51
Speaker 2: and I was working ready with the Wayan family on
4:53
Speaker 2: forty five Mils Street. I came up with this bigger
4:56
Speaker 2: idea to do a docu series on really the kind
4:59
Speaker 2: of the history of Hazen and how it's evolved into
5:01
Speaker 2: what it is today where they're lighting kids on fire
5:03
Speaker 2: and stuff. And I can't remember who introduced me to
5:06
Speaker 2: Julian Gary, but the all the family. Unfortunately, these guys
5:10
Speaker 2: aren't a club that no one wants to belonging that
5:12
Speaker 2: they all know each other and they live right by me.
5:15
Speaker 2: They only live like thirty minutes away. I live in
5:17
Speaker 2: South Orange County. They live in Long Beach. So I
5:20
Speaker 2: went and met with them, and then as I started
5:22
Speaker 2: to learn what they did, I saw this whole bigger
5:24
Speaker 2: story of the families kind of banded together to create change.
5:28
Speaker 2: And so I started working with Gary and Julie first,
5:31
Speaker 2: and they were working with me on Protect the House,
5:32
Speaker 2: which we're still doing. But then this kind of side
5:35
Speaker 2: movie came out of it, which you know, and then
5:38
Speaker 2: here we are. So but I wanted to. I wanted
5:41
Speaker 2: to tell their story because I thought what they were
5:43
Speaker 2: doing was really heroic. It reminded me of a movie
5:46
Speaker 2: called Newtown that my actually my editor edited, which is
5:49
Speaker 2: about the Sandy hook on thementary shot where the parents
5:51
Speaker 2: banded together to kind of take the gun lobbyond. I
5:55
Speaker 2: loved the story of Julian Gary kind of banding together
5:57
Speaker 2: with these other families to kind of take the system
6:00
Speaker 2: on and create transparency and try to raise the alarm
6:03
Speaker 2: bells of what's really happened. And uh so we started
6:07
Speaker 2: following them, and it's it was a long journey. It
6:09
Speaker 2: took us years to finish this because we had to
6:11
Speaker 2: get to a resolution. But I thought what they were
6:15
Speaker 2: doing so I Eric, I wanted people to see it.
6:17
Speaker 1: It's a great word for it. And I the beginning
6:20
Speaker 1: watching Julie Gary, you know, hit I don't know what
6:25
Speaker 1: Congress and going up to random I guess senators or
6:28
Speaker 1: Congress both, yeah, I mean, and taking her adorable little
6:33
Speaker 1: self and men kind of like cornering these you know,
6:37
Speaker 1: I recognize them, these these famous politicians.
6:42
Speaker 2: Everybody you know. By the way, if you look at
6:43
Speaker 2: that scene, it's actually kind of sad. It was a
6:46
Speaker 2: mother's desperation. Yeah, we weren't watching them for a few days,
6:50
Speaker 2: we weren't getting anywhere. I actually snuck around the committee
6:53
Speaker 2: committee rooms floor. We got up there because the press credentials,
6:56
Speaker 2: and she just started ambush from people and no fear,
7:00
Speaker 2: something very panic about it. It's very Julie. But it
7:02
Speaker 2: was a mother's desperation to finally get to have someone help.
7:07
Speaker 1: The desperation was palpable, and the courage as well, I
7:10
Speaker 1: mean not it was. That was the I think probably
7:13
Speaker 1: the first thing that I was sort of hit me
7:14
Speaker 1: and I what it would take to have that much
7:18
Speaker 1: strength to be able to, you know, corner these people
7:22
Speaker 1: as they're walking down the hall with their security, and
7:25
Speaker 1: she just seemed to have absolutely no fear, which I
7:29
Speaker 1: am in I mean neither one of you. And I
7:31
Speaker 1: say that not just you guys, I say I'm talking
7:34
Speaker 1: about all of the families involved in the making of
7:37
Speaker 1: this and it is quite astounding and unfortunately, I guess
7:40
Speaker 1: it is rooted in what you've been through, right, I mean,
7:45
Speaker 1: it's you're fighting now for your kids.
7:49
Speaker 3: Yes, Well, to say that Julie is fearless is an understatement.
7:54
Speaker 3: When she puts her mind or something, it gets donne.
7:58
Speaker 4: Yeah.
7:59
Speaker 3: In fact, when we first made the decision that we
8:03
Speaker 3: wanted to work on national legislation, that was her. She
8:10
Speaker 3: told me that's something that she felt very strongly about
8:14
Speaker 3: that needed to be done, and so we sat down
8:17
Speaker 3: strategize how we would do it, and then embarked on it.
8:22
Speaker 4: It took a lot longer than we thought.
8:23
Speaker 1: It was going to take, four thousand days.
8:26
Speaker 4: Yeah, but we finally got there.
8:28
Speaker 1: Yeah. This is really for the For the end of
8:31
Speaker 1: the interview, I was going to ask this, but I
8:33
Speaker 1: can't sort of help it. But does it help? Does
8:35
Speaker 1: it help to be this immersed in the making of
8:38
Speaker 1: a documentary like this in getting laws passed? Has it
8:41
Speaker 1: Has it helped heal you? I have a few friends
8:44
Speaker 1: who've lost their children, not really on the subject, but
8:48
Speaker 1: like I have one who lost a child to fentanyl poisoning,
8:51
Speaker 1: and her life now is about advocating right and getting
8:55
Speaker 1: lost passed. And I think it helps. Has this helped you,
8:58
Speaker 1: you know, making this move and you know, creating law,
9:02
Speaker 1: helping to create these laws. Does it helped you to
9:05
Speaker 1: heal a little?
9:06
Speaker 2: Well?
9:07
Speaker 3: I think I think a lot of good has come
9:10
Speaker 3: out of this. Whether or not it's healing us, I
9:13
Speaker 3: don't know. There there are times that we kind of
9:18
Speaker 3: hold each other's hands and and kind of smile, and
9:21
Speaker 3: you know, we did this for Gary, and we did
9:23
Speaker 3: it for other young you know, young men and women
9:27
Speaker 3: as they come along. I don't know if you ever
9:32
Speaker 3: get healed you lose a child, and so you know,
9:36
Speaker 3: I'm relected to kind of say that it's healing, But
9:40
Speaker 3: I understand the need that people feel after losing a
9:45
Speaker 3: child so senselessly that something has to be done. And
9:50
Speaker 3: if it hasn't been done, then I'm going to be
9:52
Speaker 3: the one to do it. I saw it Julie and
9:54
Speaker 3: I and I've seen it in so many of the
9:56
Speaker 3: other families that have come after us. You know that
9:59
Speaker 3: feeling that, Okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going
10:02
Speaker 3: to pick up the ball and I'm going to run
10:04
Speaker 3: with it. So I think it's just a sense of justice,
10:10
Speaker 3: of trying to make things right, make something good come
10:13
Speaker 3: out something that's so terrible. That's kind of the motivating factor,
10:17
Speaker 3: not so much a desire to heal.
10:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh well that makes sense. So Gary, when Gary
10:27
Speaker 1: Junior told you that he was going to pledge a fraternity,
10:30
Speaker 1: how did you feel about it? Because you were not
10:32
Speaker 1: ever in a fraternity, right, No.
10:34
Speaker 4: I never was, Julie never was.
10:38
Speaker 3: Both of us did not go to college straight out
10:41
Speaker 3: of high school. We went out into the real world,
10:45
Speaker 3: worked for a while, and then went back to school later.
10:48
Speaker 3: So we never had that four year experience on campus
10:52
Speaker 3: to kind of see what was going on. And also
10:55
Speaker 3: that was so long ago. As Daniel expressed in his experience,
11:00
Speaker 3: well the fraterniteys were doing back then, even though if
11:03
Speaker 3: they were hazing, it was different. So I wasn't thrilled
11:08
Speaker 3: about it. But you would have to know Gary. Gary
11:11
Speaker 3: was an extremely mature young man and he always made
11:14
Speaker 3: good decisions. I mean, even as a young boy. I
11:18
Speaker 3: gave him choices, and he always seemed to make the
11:20
Speaker 3: right decision. And I could tell you story after story
11:24
Speaker 3: where you know, you would kind of smile when you
11:29
Speaker 3: understood the depth of his character. Tell me one, Okay, well, gosh,
11:36
Speaker 3: when he was in like third or fourth grade, I
11:40
Speaker 3: was picking him up at school and he was hanging
11:43
Speaker 3: out by himself.
11:44
Speaker 4: Okay, to start with, we homeschooled Gary to fourth grade.
11:48
Speaker 1: Really, how come just was that just.
11:50
Speaker 3: A Well, Julie wanted Julie wanted them to She wanted
11:54
Speaker 3: to make sure that they had a good foundation for
11:56
Speaker 3: their education. Julie's a teacher, now, you know. So there's that.
12:02
Speaker 3: There is also the fact that a lot of literature
12:04
Speaker 3: that we've read talked about with children's character development. If
12:11
Speaker 3: there are primary people that they're around, or their parents,
12:15
Speaker 3: they will pick up their parents' characteristics, as opposed to
12:19
Speaker 3: when they're very young you put them in school, they
12:22
Speaker 3: adopt the morals and values of their friend group, which
12:27
Speaker 3: can be a positive or a negative. So it was
12:31
Speaker 3: very important to us that they had a strong moral
12:33
Speaker 3: foundation growing up.
12:34
Speaker 1: It's incredible, that's incredible that you all went to certain
12:38
Speaker 1: lengths to protect Gary, you know, even to school him yourself, right,
12:44
Speaker 1: and to protect him from whatever is out there, and
12:50
Speaker 1: you send him off, I guess for the first time.
12:53
Speaker 1: I don't know. And then this, but I'm sorry because
12:55
Speaker 1: I'm interrupting. Tell me the story about it.
12:57
Speaker 3: Okay, So is his first year in school, and I'm
13:01
Speaker 3: picking him up, and he's standing by himself and maybe
13:05
Speaker 3: twenty yards away or a group of about three or
13:08
Speaker 3: four or five of his friends. And he's by himself
13:12
Speaker 3: and the friends I see, they're kind of like joking
13:14
Speaker 3: around and having fun, and he's just standing there. And
13:17
Speaker 3: I remember having this terrible feeling that I thought, oh
13:20
Speaker 3: my goodness. You know, you know, we homeschooled him, he
13:23
Speaker 3: did socialized well, you know, he's he's a loaner. I
13:28
Speaker 3: just all these things kind of rushed through me. And
13:31
Speaker 3: I picked him up and he gets in the car,
13:33
Speaker 3: and so I start driving. I said, hey, you know, hey, kid,
13:37
Speaker 3: how is your day?
13:39
Speaker 2: It was good?
13:40
Speaker 3: I said, hey, wasn't that I named the kids' names.
13:43
Speaker 3: I can't think of him now in that group that
13:47
Speaker 3: was near you? And he goes, yeah, yeah. I said, well,
13:49
Speaker 3: why weren't you hanging out with him? How come you're
13:51
Speaker 3: by yourself. He goes, oh dad, they started playing with matches,
13:54
Speaker 3: So I just kind of got away from I'm like, Okay,
13:59
Speaker 3: when I was his age, if my friends would started
14:02
Speaker 3: playing with matches, I would have found something we could.
14:04
Speaker 1: Burn, you and me, both, you and me both. And honestly, yeah, honestly,
14:09
Speaker 1: I don't like, I don't know my kids are adults now,
14:13
Speaker 1: but I think they would have been down to play
14:15
Speaker 1: with matches.
14:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and he saw that, he went, no,
14:19
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna he did it admonish him, you know,
14:21
Speaker 3: he did. He just went, I'm not going to be
14:23
Speaker 3: part of this, and he went over stood by himself
14:26
Speaker 3: until oh dad picked him up.
14:28
Speaker 4: So wow, Yeah, that's the kind of story.
14:31
Speaker 3: It's like again and again. He he always made that
14:35
Speaker 3: the right decision.
14:36
Speaker 1: Were you surprised that he wanted because he doesn't seem
14:39
Speaker 1: like the kind of kid that could be influenced by
14:43
Speaker 1: you know, could be pure pressured. But were you surprised
14:45
Speaker 1: that he decided to join a frat at first?
14:48
Speaker 3: Yes, because because he's not your typical frat guy. And uh,
14:54
Speaker 3: but but but then you know, he kind of sold
14:56
Speaker 3: us on it. He talked about how joining a you know,
15:01
Speaker 3: frattorney would give him the type of connections that he
15:03
Speaker 3: was looking to have on the East Coast, and that
15:06
Speaker 3: the fraternitey stood for leadership.
15:09
Speaker 4: Gary was a baseball kid. I mean he was. I
15:13
Speaker 4: played ball, and I love the game baseball.
15:16
Speaker 1: I can I can sort of tell just in terms
15:18
Speaker 1: of your background.
15:19
Speaker 4: Yeah, sorry, no, I love it.
15:22
Speaker 3: Gary, But Gary took it to a whole different level.
15:25
Speaker 3: It's you know, there's just some people are just baseball people.
15:29
Speaker 3: And Gary was a baseball kid. He was a left
15:32
Speaker 3: handed pitcher, first baseman, but he knew he didn't have
15:36
Speaker 3: the talent that he was going to make it to
15:38
Speaker 3: the you know, he was not going to play first
15:40
Speaker 3: base for the New York Yankees.
15:42
Speaker 4: Okay, that just wasn't going to happen.
15:44
Speaker 3: But he didn't want to be in baseball, so he
15:47
Speaker 3: decided that he wanted to be a general manager of a.
15:51
Speaker 1: Baseball I remember that from the doc.
15:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so so everything that he did for the
15:57
Speaker 3: time by the time he was hitting high school, everything
16:00
Speaker 3: he did you could see him like lining up, lining
16:03
Speaker 3: up the dominoes so that they would fall where he wanted,
16:08
Speaker 3: and even even going to school back he's at a rider.
16:12
Speaker 3: He wanted to be on the East coast because that's
16:16
Speaker 3: where the connections are, and so joining the fraternity was
16:20
Speaker 3: going to be for the connections and for the leadership.
16:24
Speaker 3: So once he kind of explained, it just kind of
16:27
Speaker 3: fell in line with the kind of ken he was
16:29
Speaker 3: and who he was. And I even had a conversation
16:32
Speaker 3: with him that you know, hazing happens. Of course, I
16:38
Speaker 3: wasn't thinking the level of hazing that he encountered, So
16:42
Speaker 3: it's going to be the silly stuff, and so I
16:46
Speaker 3: had conversations with him about it, and and you know, now,
16:52
Speaker 3: of course, you know I got to carry the guilt
16:55
Speaker 3: that I didn't tell him.
16:57
Speaker 1: No, I am so sorry to hear that that you
16:59
Speaker 1: feel guilty about that. I have two kids, they've both
17:02
Speaker 1: been in Greek life, and I never had that conversation.
17:05
Speaker 1: And I have a son, and I've never had that
17:07
Speaker 1: conversation with them. Daniel, I don't know if you have kids.
17:11
Speaker 2: My daughter is a senior at San Diego State and
17:13
Speaker 2: my son's fifteen.
17:14
Speaker 1: And you've been going through this, so I'm sure that
17:17
Speaker 1: you have had those conversations. But I know that a
17:19
Speaker 1: lot of parents. I want to say in my town,
17:23
Speaker 1: the way we grew up. They're all encouraging their kids
17:26
Speaker 1: to get into the Greek life and they're.
17:29
Speaker 2: Though a lot of them don't know how bad it's gotten.
17:34
Speaker 2: And I'll be honest with you, like especially when it
17:36
Speaker 2: comes to Gary, Gary Junior, everything I've learned about him,
17:40
Speaker 2: and I've learned a lot now because it's been many
17:43
Speaker 2: years that I've been working with Gary and Julie about
17:45
Speaker 2: their son. He was not someone that can mean to
17:47
Speaker 2: manipulate it easy or you know, I wouldn't. I'd be
17:51
Speaker 2: honest with you. If I was Gary Junior's father, I
17:53
Speaker 2: wouldn't be worried about him joying a f attorney because
17:55
Speaker 2: of the type of person he was. I mean, he's not.
17:57
Speaker 2: He wasn't what I would consider weak or easily Meand
18:01
Speaker 2: so that's why it's really important to really raise the
18:04
Speaker 2: alarm what's going on right now, because these are pretty
18:06
Speaker 2: strong kids, and if they could happen to that, it
18:08
Speaker 2: could happen to anybody. That's just terrifying about it, because
18:13
Speaker 2: you know, I wouldn't say Gary Junker was exactly a
18:15
Speaker 2: weak person that would succumb to this.
18:18
Speaker 1: No, I told you my kids would have been lighting
18:20
Speaker 1: those matches like they would be the first and the
18:23
Speaker 1: last ones to do it. And I think that's I
18:25
Speaker 1: can tell by the way that you're describing him that
18:27
Speaker 1: it makes it even more surprising. I don't know, I mean,
18:33
Speaker 1: it's just almost more ironic the fact that it was him.
18:36
Speaker 1: I always think of that kid, Please forgive me, because
18:38
Speaker 1: I know you all will know his name, the red
18:40
Speaker 1: kid from pen Redhead Kid from Penn State him. Yes, yes,
18:46
Speaker 1: And that was you know, that was so huge, right,
18:49
Speaker 1: and those kids also, I want to say, they were convicted.
18:52
Speaker 2: But it's still going.
18:53
Speaker 1: Actually, oh it's still going. But that was that was least.
18:58
Speaker 1: That was probably the most famous story in terms of
19:03
Speaker 1: hazing that I've heard until now, right, And I don't
19:06
Speaker 1: know if that's all.
19:07
Speaker 2: That hit right on the cusp of when it started.
19:10
Speaker 2: We started having like one after the other, and so
19:13
Speaker 2: that's when like kind of Good Morning America and Dateline
19:15
Speaker 2: and people right around that happened. Was when people started
19:17
Speaker 2: realizing what the hell is going on? Because you had
19:19
Speaker 2: a flurry of deats back to back between twenty fourteen
19:22
Speaker 2: and twenty seventeen. So I think if it was like
19:24
Speaker 2: at the cusp of where even the press is starting
19:26
Speaker 2: to pick up, like, wait a minute, scattered. I mean,
19:29
Speaker 2: when Gary Junior died. Gary Junior's death was like probably
19:33
Speaker 2: one of the first ones that kind of started going
19:36
Speaker 2: viral on social media because Facebook just really became a
19:38
Speaker 2: thing in two thousand and seven, so it was becoming
19:42
Speaker 2: hard and harder for people to kind of cover these
19:43
Speaker 2: deaths up. I mean, what we're starting to realize now
19:46
Speaker 2: is there were many more deaths than we know of.
19:48
Speaker 2: They were just being disguised as a kid just drinking
19:51
Speaker 2: too much or and there was really no mechanism for
19:55
Speaker 2: like in a lot of police, a lot of the
19:56
Speaker 2: police department, especially university police, a lot of them are
19:59
Speaker 2: like kind of retired small town cops. They don't really
20:01
Speaker 2: know how to investigate these things, so they didn't really
20:03
Speaker 2: know the warning signs or the signs a crime scenes
20:06
Speaker 2: that something actually was a hazing. I mean, Adam Oaks,
20:10
Speaker 2: we have it on bodycam. At first, the police there
20:13
Speaker 2: were almost closed up the scene thinking a kid just
20:16
Speaker 2: drank himself, drank too much and because he didn't die
20:19
Speaker 2: at a fraterniose, so the signs were even though the
20:21
Speaker 2: kid at the front door had to dealt the Kai
20:22
Speaker 2: shirt on. I mean the signs were there. I mean,
20:25
Speaker 2: what were a bunch of boys like drinking that much for?
20:27
Speaker 2: But you know, that's one of the things that the
20:30
Speaker 2: diversities are trying to do, and so are the other
20:31
Speaker 2: parents with the bill is to these transparency laws. But
20:35
Speaker 2: also they're going out there to creating awareness. So law
20:38
Speaker 2: enforcement even knows how to recognize these things. Yeah, parents,
20:42
Speaker 2: because you need to know the warning signs so your
20:44
Speaker 2: kids are going through this.
20:45
Speaker 1: I will tell you that if I'd seen the film
20:48
Speaker 1: before my kids went to college, my daughter as well
20:51
Speaker 1: as my son, I would have had a very different
20:55
Speaker 1: conversation with them about Greek life. And I have a
20:59
Speaker 1: podcast actually about Greek life. But aside from that, I
21:03
Speaker 1: will tell you that, you know, if there's going to
21:06
Speaker 1: be so much good that comes from this film, but
21:09
Speaker 1: I can promise you that if I had seen it
21:10
Speaker 1: before my kids went away to college, we would have
21:12
Speaker 1: had a very very different conversation. I would have been
21:15
Speaker 1: a lot more vigilant, I think in terms of their
21:18
Speaker 1: experience there. So I know that it's going to change
21:22
Speaker 1: a lot of parents' attitudes in terms of their kids
21:26
Speaker 1: joining fraternity, specifically Greek life.
21:29
Speaker 2: If you're supposed to have that bond and that friendship,
21:32
Speaker 2: then I don't know why why they like hurting each other.
21:35
Speaker 2: And you know, you thought, you think that even one
21:36
Speaker 2: depth would be too much, where the whole system would
21:39
Speaker 2: been together to make sure it doesn't happen. And it's
21:41
Speaker 2: almost like they kind of get off on it. It's
21:43
Speaker 2: really bizarre because they've taken the extremness of the hazens
21:47
Speaker 2: now are insane, Like just in the past year. I mean,
21:51
Speaker 2: I almost wish we could go back in time where
21:53
Speaker 2: they were just forcing kids to chug ball as a whiskey.
21:55
Speaker 1: Wow. I picture the alcohol poisoning being the biggest.
21:58
Speaker 2: I consulted San Diego State at five SI. We had
22:02
Speaker 2: they let a kid on fire. That's the thing.
22:04
Speaker 1: Actually that happened. My daughter knew about that. She told
22:07
Speaker 1: me they lit a kid on fire.
22:10
Speaker 2: Each other. There were cars. I mean, I don't know
22:12
Speaker 2: about you, but I mean, when I pledged it, if
22:15
Speaker 2: they want to light me on fire, I'd be like,
22:16
Speaker 2: where's the door. I'm like, I mean, this is getting crazy.
22:20
Speaker 2: At this point, another fraternity in Ohio was hooking car
22:24
Speaker 2: batteries up to their privates and shocking them. I mean
22:27
Speaker 2: and kids have become sterile.
22:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't know about this, by the way.
22:31
Speaker 2: I mean, this is like stuff this has gotten and
22:33
Speaker 2: I think it social media drivee if it's getting to
22:35
Speaker 2: the point where, like you would have thought that they
22:36
Speaker 2: would have woke up after someone died, right, Yes, Diary's
22:40
Speaker 2: death was kind of right around the time when it
22:41
Speaker 2: really became a little more mainstream where everybody kind of
22:44
Speaker 2: heard about it. Before that, if a kid didn't read
22:46
Speaker 2: the paper, it was kind of or they weren't at
22:49
Speaker 2: that school. A lot of the deaths were kind of
22:51
Speaker 2: a little more low key, and then it really blew
22:53
Speaker 2: up around twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, we started
22:55
Speaker 2: seeing more and more pressed Now it seems like every
22:58
Speaker 2: couple months on Dateline on Good Morning America, there's another death.
23:03
Speaker 2: And I think we've almost become to sensitize to it.
23:05
Speaker 2: But if you go down the rabbit hole looking on
23:06
Speaker 2: social media for hazing videos.
23:09
Speaker 1: I'm telling you my daughter was the one that said
23:11
Speaker 1: to me, Mom, she knew a kid or something. They
23:14
Speaker 1: lit him on fire and then pede on him. And
23:17
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I didn't know they were they
23:20
Speaker 1: were attacking things to their genitals, and I mean that brotherhood.
23:26
Speaker 1: And I know that when I was in college, the
23:28
Speaker 1: boys there were paddles hanging up on the walls, and
23:31
Speaker 1: there was one fraternity that was more likely to haze
23:34
Speaker 1: you harder than the other. But nothing. I don't remember
23:38
Speaker 1: there being deaths with all of this work, this unbelievable
23:56
Speaker 1: work that you have been doing. Were you, first of
23:59
Speaker 1: all surprised by the resistance that you've fade, that that
24:02
Speaker 1: you faced, that it did take as long as it did,
24:04
Speaker 1: Because it felt to me like, I mean, there were
24:08
Speaker 1: times I was not like I wasn't surprised that Amy
24:10
Speaker 1: Klobuchar was so open to helping. That there were there were,
24:13
Speaker 1: you know, certain politicians that embraced you guys, but so
24:17
Speaker 1: many didn't. So many didn't and Amy did right, Yes, yes,
24:22
Speaker 1: from what I remember, Yes, But like there were what
24:25
Speaker 1: we you must have been shocked that you didn't get
24:27
Speaker 1: more that more attention wasn't you know, given to you?
24:30
Speaker 1: And and it took this long.
24:32
Speaker 3: Well, I wasn't shocked because many there's many, many people
24:37
Speaker 3: in Congress that are fraternity alumni themselves. So there's a
24:42
Speaker 3: very strong pro fraternity attitude.
24:46
Speaker 1: In one that is so gross, how frustrating that must be.
24:50
Speaker 4: Yeah, and also the.
24:52
Speaker 3: Frat Pack, which is which is a on a law
24:55
Speaker 3: firm that is uh that you know works for the national.
25:01
Speaker 4: Fraternities. They're very, very.
25:03
Speaker 3: Powerful on Capitol Hill, and I believe that they are
25:07
Speaker 3: one of the one of the reasons why it.
25:09
Speaker 4: Took so long.
25:11
Speaker 3: We had the Rechact that was going and we had
25:15
Speaker 3: something like seventy six not exact number, but in that
25:20
Speaker 3: area co sponsors on that, and then here comes the
25:25
Speaker 3: in All Hazing Act, which was introduced by the Frat Pack,
25:30
Speaker 3: and that just muddied up the water. And so I
25:33
Speaker 3: believe that we could have gotten the Rechact passed several
25:36
Speaker 3: years earlier if they hadn't introduced their anti supposedly anti
25:42
Speaker 3: hazing legislation. So I also think that they introduced it
25:49
Speaker 3: in an effort to sink the Rechact. But then since
25:53
Speaker 3: we persevered and we and we fucked them and we
25:56
Speaker 3: stayed with it, at some point they I think they
25:59
Speaker 3: believed that you know, you can't beat them, join them.
26:03
Speaker 2: That was an interesting twist when that he will happen.
26:05
Speaker 2: And just to just to be clear, because I want
26:07
Speaker 2: to clarify some there were families that were working with
26:09
Speaker 2: the frat pack and I don't think the families had
26:11
Speaker 2: the same intent, but you know, and the fact that
26:14
Speaker 2: the National Pattorneys were sponsoring a bill, you know that
26:18
Speaker 2: would almost curb them and and and raise put a
26:21
Speaker 2: spotlight on the misgivings and what they're doing, all the
26:24
Speaker 2: things they're doing wrong. I was a little suspicious of
26:26
Speaker 2: that from day one, but then when the bill ended
26:28
Speaker 2: up getting passed. The irony of this whole thing is
26:31
Speaker 2: they're out there fighting for transparency, and there's members of
26:34
Speaker 2: these organizations posing with the parents after the bill passed.
26:37
Speaker 2: But you know all about transparency, but they're not. The
26:40
Speaker 2: bill doesn't require them to be transparent, only the universities.
26:44
Speaker 2: And I would like call them out, like, okay, then
26:48
Speaker 2: why no one has to force you, like, go ahead,
26:50
Speaker 2: put it on your website. Why aren't you guys transparent?
26:53
Speaker 2: Like you're all for transparency, right, so go ahead and
26:55
Speaker 2: post it on your website. And and I even offered
26:57
Speaker 2: one of them. I was like, okay, I have web
26:59
Speaker 2: this have worked for me. I'll update your website for you.
27:02
Speaker 2: How's how about that? But because my son's going to
27:04
Speaker 2: join a fraternity. Most likely I'm going to go on
27:07
Speaker 2: that fraternity's website and try to learn about them, right,
27:09
Speaker 2: I'm not going to go dig through University of Delaware's
27:12
Speaker 2: website to try to find where where is the stop
27:15
Speaker 2: campus as in act information.
27:17
Speaker 1: Of course, right.
27:18
Speaker 2: And so it was just it was it was total
27:21
Speaker 2: bs that, like they're out there posing their pictures, like
27:25
Speaker 2: we're all about transparent. We're not gonna be transparent ourselves.
27:27
Speaker 2: But I mean it's just like and until like they
27:31
Speaker 2: step up and they do that, I just call a
27:33
Speaker 2: spade a spade. I mean, they're full of shit.
27:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you do?
27:37
Speaker 3: You do they do?
27:38
Speaker 1: They call themselves the frat Pack. I really hope it's
27:39
Speaker 1: what you all name them.
27:40
Speaker 2: I don't know, Gary, you know, they kind of had
27:44
Speaker 2: the name before.
27:45
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, there was kind of a nickname that's been
27:48
Speaker 3: hung on them years ago. I don't know where it
27:50
Speaker 3: originates from, but it's been around.
27:53
Speaker 4: Quite a while.
27:54
Speaker 1: Well I like that we use it in a derogatory way.
27:56
Speaker 4: Now, yeah, well that's the only way to use it.
27:59
Speaker 1: Yes.
28:00
Speaker 2: The thing is they brainwash families, and a lot of
28:04
Speaker 2: families work with them, and they're wonderful families. We know
28:06
Speaker 2: these families. They're good people, and it's caused like a
28:09
Speaker 2: rift between like kind of the families that work with
28:11
Speaker 2: the Fraterneys and don't work with the Frattorneys. And I
28:14
Speaker 2: mean personally the Gary and Julie are pretty adamant about it,
28:17
Speaker 2: never working with the f attorney. I'm if I have
28:20
Speaker 2: my son and her daughter Fraterney, I would never work
28:22
Speaker 2: with them because, look, they could do so much more
28:25
Speaker 2: and they're not doing it. But for them to put
28:27
Speaker 2: these families out there, and by the way, that's kind
28:30
Speaker 2: of their sole thing that they do. That's kind of
28:32
Speaker 2: all they do, is they you know when instead of
28:35
Speaker 2: making real change like shutting houses down or putting chaperones
28:38
Speaker 2: in houses or stopping really having a zero tolerance with Hazen,
28:42
Speaker 2: their entire thing is like, well, look we're trying everything
28:44
Speaker 2: we can. We had this family come speak at our conference,
28:47
Speaker 2: and it's like that that's all they do. And you know,
28:50
Speaker 2: and then when if I'm a parent with the kidrome
28:52
Speaker 2: in school, if you don't know what we know, we'll
28:54
Speaker 2: be like, well, they must be turning a corner. Just
28:56
Speaker 2: look at the family that went and spoke with them.
28:58
Speaker 2: Why would that family, go speak with them. They're still
29:00
Speaker 2: hazing kids, so they must be good. It's like the
29:02
Speaker 2: perfect cover. And unfortunately, you know, when you're in your
29:07
Speaker 2: height of grief, when these families are going through what
29:09
Speaker 2: Gary and Julie went through and all these other families
29:11
Speaker 2: go through, you're really kind of vulnerable. And these guys
29:14
Speaker 2: come in and they make it seem like we're going
29:16
Speaker 2: to put you in front of thousands of people and
29:17
Speaker 2: you're going to help us change things. But really none
29:20
Speaker 2: of them ever have the balls to ask, well, what
29:22
Speaker 2: real action are you doing? What are you really doing
29:24
Speaker 2: to create change here? Because there's so much research and
29:27
Speaker 2: so much stuff that has come out of the past,
29:29
Speaker 2: especially five to ten years, that they know that there
29:31
Speaker 2: are certain things they can be doing to really change things,
29:33
Speaker 2: and they don't do it.
29:48
Speaker 1: Do you think that I can't help it? You guys?
29:50
Speaker 1: Talking to my head is like spinning. There so many
29:52
Speaker 1: things that I want to ask you, But do you
29:55
Speaker 1: think so much about it? Of this is about money?
30:00
Speaker 2: Of course, they have hundreds of millions of dollars in
30:03
Speaker 2: real estate. I mean hundreds of millions, and now they're
30:05
Speaker 2: making money. When kids get hurt or die, they raise
30:08
Speaker 2: the insurance rates. They own the insurance companies and they're
30:11
Speaker 2: not that yeah, up in and off. When kids actually
30:14
Speaker 2: get hurt or die, they raised the rates. And by
30:16
Speaker 2: the way, what a scam that is there. You know,
30:18
Speaker 2: I called some of my friends that are an insurance businesses,
30:21
Speaker 2: and you know, to add people to a coverage across
30:24
Speaker 2: penniesly compared to what it cross overall. So it's like,
30:27
Speaker 2: if they're charging kids fifty dollars a semester towards insurance,
30:30
Speaker 2: it would cost fifty five to name the kids an
30:32
Speaker 2: insurance policy as well. So it's just nonsense.
30:36
Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier that as a grieving parent, you want
30:39
Speaker 3: to do something. You know, you know you're going to
30:42
Speaker 3: pick up the ball, You're gonna you're going to do
30:45
Speaker 3: something to solve this problem. Well, the the you know,
30:49
Speaker 3: the frat pack and the national fraternities, they get these
30:52
Speaker 3: parents in that vulnerable type position.
30:55
Speaker 4: They want to do something. They don't want this to.
30:57
Speaker 3: Happen to any other kid's and you know then they
31:01
Speaker 3: get him and go, well, you can come speak here
31:03
Speaker 3: and you can talk.
31:04
Speaker 4: And you can get this done.
31:06
Speaker 3: Uh, and you can be the person that that warns
31:10
Speaker 3: the kids that about hazing, so they don't hate and
31:13
Speaker 3: kill someone else themselves. And when Daniel mentioned about uh,
31:19
Speaker 3: when Julie and I spoke and I said that that
31:22
Speaker 3: the Haitian gifts were early similar Timothy post.
31:29
Speaker 2: Darry and Timothy's death, they're almost identical. Yeah, most of
31:34
Speaker 2: these kids, it's the same thing. And they also the
31:36
Speaker 2: crazy thing is almost every boy could have been saved.
31:39
Speaker 2: They die over long periods of time because no one
31:41
Speaker 2: calls nine to one one CPR. They leave them there.
31:45
Speaker 2: Gary was backpacked, it was left on a couch. You know.
31:49
Speaker 2: Timo Piazza, we obviously know what happened to him. I
31:52
Speaker 2: mean he kept they kept putting them back up the room.
31:54
Speaker 2: He fell down the stairs, hit his head. I mean
31:56
Speaker 2: a brother even tried to step up to get him help.
31:58
Speaker 2: I mean this went on for hours and he eventually died.
32:01
Speaker 2: All these kids, if someone would call nine one one,
32:03
Speaker 2: And by the way, most states have by standard awareness laws,
32:06
Speaker 2: there's zero reason not to get someone out. But they're
32:08
Speaker 2: so worried about getting the fraternity in trouble that they
32:11
Speaker 2: run the risk of someone dying. And it's just it's sad.
32:16
Speaker 2: And then the crazy thing is they lose someone someone
32:19
Speaker 2: is supposedly a brother. They made that horrible, but you
32:22
Speaker 2: know they're living with guilt and then they still don't
32:24
Speaker 2: come out and talk about it. Well, that was really real.
32:28
Speaker 2: It still lives like. I interviewed for my other project
32:31
Speaker 2: someone in the FBI that says he sees a stronger
32:33
Speaker 2: bond with the code of silence and fraternities than he
32:37
Speaker 2: does with the Mexican mafia, the Italian mafia and the
32:39
Speaker 2: Bloods and the Crypts, which makes no sense because if
32:42
Speaker 2: you speak out against the Mexican mafia, you better hide
32:45
Speaker 2: your family. I don't know why kids stay sicklent over
32:49
Speaker 2: hazing incidents.
32:50
Speaker 1: It's like, really like just because their kids, their brains
32:54
Speaker 1: aren't developed. What is it a boy's brain developed at
32:56
Speaker 1: twenty six, which is why they need a chaperone, which
32:59
Speaker 1: is why they need someone there, because they're being stupid.
33:01
Speaker 1: Excuse my sorry, excuse my language, but that doesn't excuse
33:05
Speaker 1: these kids that step over their dying brothers.
33:09
Speaker 2: Guy, he died over fifteen years ago. Now everybody who
33:12
Speaker 2: was there that day they have grown up, now they
33:16
Speaker 2: have kids. I tried to get in touch with every
33:18
Speaker 2: one of them to do interviews, and I actually got
33:21
Speaker 2: a couple and then one of them was going to
33:23
Speaker 2: do it and then back down lest minute. Gross, you
33:27
Speaker 2: thought that being a father or something now you would feel,
33:29
Speaker 2: you know, I want to help save lives.
33:31
Speaker 1: You not believe they all backed out.
33:33
Speaker 2: No, I reached out to One of the reasons this
33:36
Speaker 2: took so long. There was two reasons. One obviously we
33:39
Speaker 2: were waiting for see what happens with the bill. But
33:41
Speaker 2: the other thing we're doing that Garrin are doing is
33:43
Speaker 2: to protect the house to the series. You know, I've
33:46
Speaker 2: reached out to literally over three hundred and fifty people,
33:49
Speaker 2: from ex attorney brothers to the heads of all the paternities,
33:53
Speaker 2: the n I see all trying to get interviews. They
33:55
Speaker 2: want us all to believe that what they're doing is great,
33:58
Speaker 2: and they're great organizations and all this charitable work and
34:00
Speaker 2: they make better men and all the connections, but they
34:03
Speaker 2: won't sit down and talk about it on camera. That
34:05
Speaker 2: that's really suspicious right there. If you really believe in
34:07
Speaker 2: what you do and that's what you guys stand for,
34:10
Speaker 2: and the only like the only things I even said,
34:12
Speaker 2: like even with the head of the NIC, I would
34:14
Speaker 2: Judd I was going to do an interview with them,
34:16
Speaker 2: and I even said, this is some filmmakers never do.
34:19
Speaker 2: I'd send him questions ahead of time, and it was
34:21
Speaker 2: gonna be fair, and I was willing to ask them
34:23
Speaker 2: about the charitable work, ask them you can go ahead
34:25
Speaker 2: and tell us everything you do, but I'm also gonna
34:27
Speaker 2: talk about the dead kids to be fair, because you
34:30
Speaker 2: represent all these organizations and kids are dying, so we
34:33
Speaker 2: need to talk about it. And backed out of the
34:35
Speaker 2: interview after like two years agoing back and forth. I mean,
34:38
Speaker 2: I just I don't understand if these are really horrific accidents,
34:42
Speaker 2: if you guys really meanwhile with these kids, and why
34:44
Speaker 2: not sit here and tell why not join and actually
34:47
Speaker 2: try to make a real difference and like, you know,
34:49
Speaker 2: and talk about what happened so.
34:51
Speaker 1: Very I would I wonder why. I wonder if they're
34:53
Speaker 1: they're worried about their own kids, getting upset with who
34:57
Speaker 1: gives a shit? But these are their kids are die?
34:59
Speaker 1: Kids are dye? I mean, bottom line, what do you
35:01
Speaker 1: guys see since the bill was passed? Are you seeing please?
35:06
Speaker 1: Got a difference in you know, instance instances of you know,
35:12
Speaker 1: hazing and I don't know, deadly hazing.
35:16
Speaker 2: It's a little tour. No, right, really, but we're just
35:18
Speaker 2: starting to is just starting to come out.
35:20
Speaker 1: I mean, like, wait, what was the bill passed December
35:22
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, right.
35:23
Speaker 2: Start in January when I started reporting, But the fully
35:26
Speaker 2: arende for another few months. So but there is more.
35:30
Speaker 2: There seems to be a lot more transparency. We're seeing
35:32
Speaker 2: more and more so when something happens at university most
35:36
Speaker 2: a little more and a half the universities are fully
35:38
Speaker 2: compliant and they're actually posting a lot of press, so
35:40
Speaker 2: we're seeing it more. We won't know, I feel unfortunately,
35:46
Speaker 2: I feel like there hayes An incidents have increased still.
35:49
Speaker 2: I mean I think, you know, especially with like fraternities
35:51
Speaker 2: like CAPA Sigma. There's a few fraternities that I mean,
35:54
Speaker 2: capa Sigma has been in the press almost every week
35:56
Speaker 2: the past eight weeks with another hazing accident. So I'll
36:00
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll get like Carrie gives his opinion, but
36:01
Speaker 2: I feel like we've had an increase in has of
36:03
Speaker 2: incidents recently.
36:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, unbelievable. Gary, You've seen it.
36:08
Speaker 3: Too, Yes, it's definitely the problem is getting worse and worse.
36:13
Speaker 3: And I did want to speak to something Daniel said,
36:20
Speaker 3: talked about Justin Horace, who is the head of the
36:22
Speaker 3: n IC when Julie and I spoke. He approached us
36:26
Speaker 3: afterwards and wanted to know if we'd be willing to
36:28
Speaker 3: work with him and you know, helping him to prevent hazing.
36:34
Speaker 3: And we told him, we said, well, if you're willing
36:36
Speaker 3: to make significant changes, we would love.
36:38
Speaker 4: To work with you.
36:39
Speaker 3: But if you're just going to paint around the edges
36:41
Speaker 3: and do a little here and there, they didn't know
36:45
Speaker 3: and we never heard from him again.
36:47
Speaker 2: By the way, Jennifer, here's something for you. His name
36:49
Speaker 2: is Judd Horace. He's the head of the NICE Where
36:52
Speaker 2: I left it off with him saying, I don't trust
36:54
Speaker 2: the way you're going to edit the interview. So if
36:55
Speaker 2: you're willing to beat me or talk to me on
36:58
Speaker 2: a live podcast, I would do that on that So
37:00
Speaker 2: why you invite him on a podcast and bring us
37:02
Speaker 2: back on?
37:03
Speaker 1: Okay?
37:03
Speaker 2: I have a lot of questions for him, and he's
37:05
Speaker 2: more welcome to ask us, but you know he ducks things.
37:09
Speaker 2: But he said he would go on a live broadcast
37:11
Speaker 2: that's unedited.
37:12
Speaker 1: Listen. I don't do live broadcasts, but I'll make it work.
37:15
Speaker 1: I promise you I'll sit down on stage somewhere and
37:17
Speaker 1: I'll be the quote unquote media mediator. I would love
37:20
Speaker 1: to do anything that I could to help you guys,
37:23
Speaker 1: and to help this cause. I have kids. They are
37:25
Speaker 1: again twenty four and twenty six. It was so painful
37:29
Speaker 1: to watch this film and open my eyes again. I've
37:33
Speaker 1: had two kids go through college, and I would have
37:35
Speaker 1: approached things differently now than I did then having seen
37:40
Speaker 1: the film. So that is my promise for me to you.
37:44
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm personally I'm not trying to ruin people's
37:46
Speaker 2: college experience, you know. I just don't want people to torture
37:49
Speaker 2: people and kill people. But I feel like parents now
37:52
Speaker 2: need to be educated more so they can talk rereed.
37:55
Speaker 2: I think we need to get the kids younger. I
37:56
Speaker 2: think by the time they're going into college, their minds
37:59
Speaker 2: made up what they're going to do. You can't really
38:01
Speaker 2: hit a kid at college orientation and start telling them
38:03
Speaker 2: all this stuff. They kind of need to be aware
38:05
Speaker 2: of this when they're thirteen fourteen. They need to grow
38:07
Speaker 2: up them or And the good news is gen Zers
38:09
Speaker 2: seem to be a little more cautious. Yeah, less Manivoultive
38:13
Speaker 2: so I believe, you know, if we get the kids
38:15
Speaker 2: in middle school and maybe even freshmen or in high
38:17
Speaker 2: school and they start learning about this stuff, hopefully they'll
38:22
Speaker 2: you know, they'll think, they'll think twice before getting put
38:24
Speaker 2: in these situations, or if they are putting the situation.
38:26
Speaker 2: It would be a big difference of kids just called
38:28
Speaker 2: nine one one, amen.
38:30
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's the should be the least of it.
38:32
Speaker 1: You guys, I want to I have this hard stop,
38:34
Speaker 1: but I hope maybe you would consider coming back, souse.
38:36
Speaker 1: I feel like we have not gotten far enough. I
38:39
Speaker 1: have so many more questions and admiration to just heap
38:42
Speaker 1: upon the both of you. You are doing God's work.
38:45
Speaker 1: And please let me not only me, no, but let
38:48
Speaker 1: all of us know. People are gonna people are gonna
38:50
Speaker 1: want to get on board with you guys after seeing
38:53
Speaker 1: the film. I believe that one hundred percent, So you know,
38:58
Speaker 1: start with me. Whatever I can do to help you guys.
39:01
Speaker 1: Spread it on social media. Anything you have going on,
39:04
Speaker 1: please send my way. I'll put the New Jersey Film
39:08
Speaker 1: Festival on my page. I'll talk about it anytime you
39:12
Speaker 1: want me to. But you know, thank you for all
39:14
Speaker 1: that you're doing. Gary, again, I'm thinking of you. I'm
39:16
Speaker 1: glad that I got to know Gary Junior a little
39:19
Speaker 1: bit through the film. I love the story you just
39:21
Speaker 1: told about him. I won't forget it. I appreciate you
39:23
Speaker 1: both so much for coming on and for the work
39:25
Speaker 1: that you're doing.
39:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Gary and Julie will be there as well,
39:28
Speaker 2: say with the Oaks, but we'll be at the Jersey
39:31
Speaker 2: Short Film Fest le on June sixteenth, and every recept
39:34
Speaker 2: chat people can talk to us and get our information.
39:37
Speaker 2: We encourage them to bring their kids, now how young
39:40
Speaker 2: they are. I can see it because you know it's
39:42
Speaker 2: hard to watch, but I think it's important to see
39:45
Speaker 2: what's going on here.
39:46
Speaker 1: The only reason that I won't be there is because
39:48
Speaker 1: my daughter Rachel on her birthday and I don't know
39:50
Speaker 1: what plan she's already made. But I am going, really
39:52
Speaker 1: going to try. I would love to be there, but
39:54
Speaker 1: please hit me up, talk to my producers all help
39:56
Speaker 1: in any way. I can post anything that you guys
39:59
Speaker 1: want on my own social media. I have a mid
40:02
Speaker 1: to pretty big following, so but you know, warm best
40:06
Speaker 1: wishes to both of you. Good work, gentlemen, Thank you
40:09
Speaker 1: so much.
40:10
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, Jen