Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / KANSAS MOMS' BODIES STUFFED IN ICE CHEST, BURIED IN COW PASTURE, BLOODY CLOTHES, TASER, DUCT TAPE

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KANSAS MOMS' BODIES STUFFED IN ICE CHEST, BURIED IN COW PASTURE, BLOODY CLOTHES, TASER, DUCT TAPE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:01
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Breaking news tonight just revealed the horrific details surrounding the
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Speaker 2: disappearance of two Kansas moms.
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Speaker 1: Tonight, the unthinkable were the two.
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Speaker 2: Moms bodies stuffed in an ice chest and buried fifteen
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Speaker 2: feet below the surface of a remote cow pasture? Were
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Speaker 2: they buried alive along with bloody clothes, a taser and
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Speaker 2: duct tape? Good evening, Imancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
0:38
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us.
0:40
Speaker 3: New details emerged on brutally murdered Kansas moms. Court docs
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Speaker 3: reveal Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in
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Speaker 3: a buried freezer.
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Speaker 4: Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's vehicle found abandoned just miles
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Speaker 4: from their destination, surrounded by pools of blood.
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Speaker 2: What really happened to these two Kansas moms? Yes, we
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Speaker 2: can figure out they were carjacked and route to a
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Speaker 2: kid's birthday party, But how did they end up dead
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Speaker 2: or alive stuffed into an ice chest ten to fifteen
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Speaker 2: feet below the surface in a remote cow pasture. Well,
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Speaker 2: I'm learning a lot from these just discovered court documents
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Speaker 2: and guess what the defense wanted them sealed, and.
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Speaker 1: They stated on the record.
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Speaker 2: Because they don't want the Nancy Grace Show to find
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Speaker 2: out about them. Well guess what we did find out
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Speaker 2: about them. That's what happens when your client is accused
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Speaker 2: of murdering two moms and burying them and an ice
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Speaker 2: chest and a cow pasture.
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Speaker 1: What more do we know? Listen?
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Speaker 5: Documents reveal what investigators did to find the bodies of
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Speaker 5: Iroonica Butler and Jillian Kelly after they go missing en
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Speaker 5: route to a child's birthday party. Questioning relatives and friends,
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Speaker 5: investigators isolate a burial site about eight miles from where
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Speaker 5: Veronica Butler's car is found abandoned. After two long days
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Speaker 5: of digging, Veronica and Jillian are found dead, buried fifteen
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Speaker 5: feet underground inside a freezer chest. Cause of death not revealed.
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Speaker 5: Oklahoma law enforcement says the women's murders were absolutely brutal.
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Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel, but first I want
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Speaker 2: to go to Chris McDonough joining US, Director of the
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Speaker 2: Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over three hundred
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Speaker 2: homicides under his belt, and now host of a YouTube channel,
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Speaker 2: The Interview Room. You can find him at Colcasefoundation dot org.
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Speaker 2: Chris McDonald. I don't know if you've ever been in
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Speaker 2: the horrible position of having to find bodies with ground
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Speaker 2: penetrating radar. It's it kind of looks like those metal
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Speaker 2: detectors you see people with out on the beach. But
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Speaker 2: what it shows it kind of looks like a sonogram
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Speaker 2: when you look at it. And I've handled many cases
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Speaker 2: that had the groundbreaking radar, and it looks like waves.
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Speaker 2: It's all black and gray. But you have to know
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Speaker 2: what you're looking for. Like on an X ray or
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Speaker 2: an ultrasound, you can actually see disturbed earth. That's what
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Speaker 2: you're looking for. Anything disturbed, anything that looks like it's
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Speaker 2: been moved.
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Speaker 1: I'm just curious if you've ever had to use those.
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Speaker 2: But in this case, let me just say, you know,
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Speaker 2: I'm not one to judge unless it's a felony.
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Speaker 1: I don't care what anybody does.
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Speaker 2: But if it's got crime scene tape around it, I'm
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Speaker 2: all over it. These people are idiots. They left a
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Speaker 2: trail a mile wide. These two moms are found in
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Speaker 2: an ice chest ten to fifteen feet below the surface
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Speaker 2: of a cow pasture. But Chris on the top, all
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Speaker 2: that's a really good aerial thank you. There's fresh dirt, cement,
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Speaker 2: chucks and hey and that one area, but it still
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Speaker 2: took two days of digging.
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Speaker 1: What do you think you.
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Speaker 6: Know, there's that instrument that you're talking about, Nancyman, it
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Speaker 6: does It shows an anomaly within the depth of the
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Speaker 6: surface of the earth there and in this situation where
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Speaker 6: they have, you know, blocks of concrete like you're talking about.
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Speaker 6: But the biggest clue in this whole thing, obviously when
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Speaker 6: you're looking at that device, is the fact that you're
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Speaker 6: going to have a hard metal iea some type of
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Speaker 6: freezer that they discovered there. And I think the really
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Speaker 6: crazy part here is it's fifteen feet deep. That is
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Speaker 6: a lot of work to get that item below the earth.
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Speaker 2: Hey, you notice making me wonder Joining me in dist
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Speaker 2: Chris mcdunna, Lauren Conlin, doctor Kendall Crowns, and doctor Angela
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Speaker 2: Arnold Alan Bennet with US former assistant district attorney now
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Speaker 2: partner at Gunter Bennett and Anthus Alan. It makes me
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Speaker 2: wonder listening to Chris McDonough talking, it just occurred.
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Speaker 1: To me, did they have this very deep hole ten to.
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Speaker 2: Fifteen feet deep? Did they have it dug before the murders.
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Speaker 2: That's a lot of pre planning because it took investigators
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Speaker 2: two days to dig down and get to that ice chest.
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Speaker 1: And I'm going to get to the.
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Speaker 2: Visual of folding over and stuffing two ladies into an
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Speaker 2: ice chest in a minute. But that leads me to premeditation.
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Speaker 7: Alan Bennett, Oh absolutely, I think just from what little
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Speaker 7: I've seen provide the materials from your show, I think,
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Speaker 7: let's say we have an easy time establishing the pattern
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Speaker 7: in which these five people engagement is kind of I
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Speaker 7: think there's a this amount of evidence pointing toward their
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Speaker 7: conviction at this point.
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Speaker 2: Joining us again an all star panel makes sense of
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Speaker 2: what we're learning right now. Straight out to Lauren Conlin,
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Speaker 2: joining us with the latest investigative journalist, host of The
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Speaker 2: Outlier podcast. You can find her at Laurencolin dot com.
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Speaker 2: Lauren tell me the latest. These documents are dynamite. They
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Speaker 2: are gonna torpedo the defense.
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Speaker 8: Start from the beginning, we have two cell phones found
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Speaker 8: in Cole and Cora Twombley's truck, a white iPhone and
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Speaker 8: a black iPhone. Then we have the fact that someone
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Speaker 8: else helped clean the truck.
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Speaker 1: Back it up.
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Speaker 2: I feel like making that sound when you hear a
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Speaker 2: large truck reversing going boom boom. Let's start sorry with
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Speaker 2: the ice chest.
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Speaker 1: Okay, the ice chest with two dead bodies in it.
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Speaker 2: They used to be young moms, last scene all the
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Speaker 2: way to a kid birthday party.
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Speaker 1: Why are they in an ice chest?
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Speaker 2: I want to talk about the excavation process. I know, Lauren,
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Speaker 2: you're an investigative reporter and you.
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Speaker 1: Go with the banner, and I get it. I hear you.
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Speaker 2: But when I hear something like two ladies fifteen feet
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Speaker 2: below the surface of a cow pasture in an ice chest,
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Speaker 2: remind me to circle back to doctor Kendall Crowns. Gosh,
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Speaker 2: you know I'm going off in all kinds of directions
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Speaker 2: because there's so much evidence right now with these two
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Speaker 2: Kansas moms. I want to ask doctor Kendall Crowns about,
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Speaker 2: now that I know they're in an ice chest, how
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Speaker 2: am I going to tell if they were buried dead
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Speaker 2: or alive. But back to the excavation and what you're
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Speaker 2: learning in these documents. There's a lot of them, and
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Speaker 2: we've all come through them with the fine tooth. Lauren,
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Speaker 2: about the ice chest and the discovery of Veronica Jillian's bodies.
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Speaker 8: Yes, so it took two days to dig through this
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Speaker 8: proper and essentially we talked about a dam previously and
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Speaker 8: the bodies were found about one hundred and fifty to
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Speaker 8: two hundred yards away from this dam.
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Speaker 9: So they dug fifteen feet.
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Speaker 8: They found this incredibly large ice chest freezer. They call
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Speaker 8: it a trunk if you will, and unfortunately they found
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Speaker 8: Veronica and Jillian, as well as other bloody items that
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Speaker 8: did not belong to the women.
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Speaker 1: Guys, what more do we know about what happened? Now?
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Speaker 2: Another issue? Back to Alan Bennett very quickly. Alan, this
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Speaker 2: was out in the middle of a cow pasture, so
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Speaker 2: it's not as if police really needed a warrant because
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Speaker 2: this disturbed earth is in plane Zeo. But to dig
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Speaker 2: under the dirt, to be on the safe side, I
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Speaker 2: would think they had to have a warrant.
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Speaker 10: Yes, no, yeah, they would need to get a warrant
9:00
Speaker 10: or the permission of the landowner to go onto that
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Speaker 10: property and to do once they have consent. It's free range.
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Speaker 11: But ideally, just as we saved.
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Speaker 10: They would probably want to get consent and then probably
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Speaker 10: get a search warrant just to make absolutely sure.
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Speaker 1: Guys, take a listen to this.
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Speaker 5: Investigators execute a search warrant at an Oklahoma cowpasture. Gillian
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Speaker 5: and Veronica's bodies are placed inside a freezer with personal
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Speaker 5: items that do not belong to Butler or Kelly. Investigators
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Speaker 5: find bloody clothes, the handle of his saw, as well
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Speaker 5: as a taser. Some appear to have blood on them,
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Speaker 5: like a pair of Wrangler blue jeans with a black belt,
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Speaker 5: a brown sweatshirt, a black hooded sweatshirt, and a second
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Speaker 5: pair of Wrangler blue jeans. None of the items belong
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Speaker 5: to Veronica, Butler or Jilly and Kelly.
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Speaker 2: Lauren Collin joining US investigative journalist and host of The Outlier. Lauren,
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Speaker 2: I want to talk about all these items that were found.
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Speaker 2: Which items were found stuffed into the ice chest?
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Speaker 8: So exactly what was just stated? The jeans, the I
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Speaker 8: have a whole list. There was a ratchet strap I'm reading,
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Speaker 8: a car, heart jacket with possible blood, black cabar knife,
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Speaker 8: a great ball cap with possible blood, a pair of
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Speaker 8: cloth gloves with blood, sketcher shoes, electrical chords with tape.
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Speaker 8: It's it's it's disgusting, it's it's it's absolutely horrifying.
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Speaker 9: It's something out of a horror movie.
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Speaker 2: Nancy Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Chris McDonough joining us,
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Speaker 2: a former homicide detective now host of the Interview Room.
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Speaker 1: Just think about it. Because I once had a case.
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Speaker 2: My victim was a Jane Doe, but her killer was
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Speaker 2: a serial killer, and I believed I could get him
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Speaker 2: on one case.
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Speaker 1: I couldn't muddy.
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Speaker 2: The water by trying to bring in any similar transactions
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Speaker 2: because if they didn't go over with the jury, it
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Speaker 2: would make them doubt.
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Speaker 1: My case in chief.
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Speaker 2: So on one murder of a Jane Doe, I tried
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Speaker 2: this guy and there was one piece of evidence. I
11:17
Speaker 2: thought about it and thought about it, and thought about
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Speaker 2: what does this piece of evidence prove its It's got
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Speaker 2: to be important.
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Speaker 1: It was one earring, Chris.
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Speaker 2: One earring found in a different location near the body,
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Speaker 2: but in a different location.
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Speaker 1: What did it prove? Then?
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Speaker 2: I found out and doctor Kendall grounds are like this,
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Speaker 2: that her ear had been ripped at the earring spot.
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Speaker 2: And I learned a lot anyway I could hypothesize from there.
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Speaker 2: Did you hear what Lauren Collin just said? She said,
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Speaker 2: And I'm looking here at the documents, bloody cloth, gloves, shoes,
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Speaker 2: so many things. But now from these, what can we
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Speaker 2: deduce a USB drive with pictures of a grave site,
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Speaker 2: a saw handle?
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Speaker 1: What can I do with this?
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Speaker 6: Well, Nancy, if I presented that to you in a
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Speaker 6: court and you have done this many many times before,
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Speaker 6: that is a tremendous amount of information and evidence that
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Speaker 6: shows a couple of things malice and forethought right an
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Speaker 6: evil intent. You have a taser that's a control mechanism.
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Speaker 6: You have clothing that's in the graveside of itself that
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Speaker 6: tells us okay, are the suspects or suspect you know,
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Speaker 6: eliminating their own clothing by throwing it in with the victims.
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Speaker 6: You have a what sounds like a cord of some sort,
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Speaker 6: you know, is that a strangling mechanism? You have a
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Speaker 6: k barn knife. Is that a coup to G mechanism?
13:03
Speaker 6: Or and then you have a piece of a saw.
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Speaker 6: Are they trying to dismember the bodies? I mean, think
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Speaker 6: about these two innocent women stuffed in that freezer and
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Speaker 6: just think about the blood, the amount of blood that's
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Speaker 6: trapped withinside of that freezer. When the authorities discover those
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Speaker 6: two poor victims.
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Speaker 2: Hey, Hey, What about this ratchet straps that were found?
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Speaker 1: What are ratchet straps?
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Speaker 2: They are called tie down according to my notes that
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Speaker 2: I took tie down straps. I think of bungee cords
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Speaker 2: like I would hook our bikes to the back of
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Speaker 2: the mini van. Ratchet straps, but they're more industrial tie
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Speaker 2: down straps used to transport cargo in a vehicle. Have
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Speaker 2: you ever been behind a truck that's got a whole
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Speaker 2: lot of stuff in the bed and they've got a
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Speaker 2: ratchet strap holding it in. I try to get away
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Speaker 2: as quickly as possible because I'm sure they're going to
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Speaker 2: fall off onto my windshield. Why are ratchet straps in
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Speaker 2: the ice chests with the two dead bodies, typically used
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Speaker 2: to secure things to a roof rack or a truck
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Speaker 2: bed or elsewhere. Why did they need ratchet straps? And
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Speaker 2: are they bloody?
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Speaker 11: You know? And that's a great question.
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Speaker 6: And so what that indicates Possibly there could be a
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Speaker 6: third crime scene of some sort ie the abduction site.
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Speaker 6: They put this freezer in the back of some type
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Speaker 6: of transport vehicle, strap it down with that type of strap,
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Speaker 6: and then transport that to the third site where they
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Speaker 6: dump the body into a shelf One other thing I'd
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Speaker 6: be real curious about is what type of machinery they found,
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Speaker 6: ie a back ho or something to that effect. To
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Speaker 6: get fifteen feet down, you know it's going to take
14:49
Speaker 6: some type of machinery like that.
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Speaker 2: Well, so bizarre, well among so many things that are
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Speaker 2: bizarre in this case. When you look at a couple
14:56
Speaker 2: of the defendants, they actually look normal. Passed them in
15:00
Speaker 2: the grocery store aisle, you wouldn't think anything at all.
15:05
Speaker 2: Maybe him, he looks fairly normal. Okay, forget about the
15:10
Speaker 2: guy with the led Zeppelin beard. No, no, I would
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Speaker 2: run the other way. The grandma, oh, I think meth.
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Speaker 2: But the last two, if I pass them in the
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Speaker 2: grocery store aisle, say the frozen section, I wouldn't think
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Speaker 2: anything about it. And what is so really scary about
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Speaker 2: it is that they were amongst everyone in the community
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Speaker 2: and no one suspected a thing. We are discussing what
15:42
Speaker 2: we have just learned, and now I know why the
15:44
Speaker 2: defense lawyer wanted to keep this secret. She wanted everything
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Speaker 2: under seal, so quote the Nancy gres Show wouldn't.
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Speaker 1: Get a hold of it.
15:53
Speaker 2: Guess what, little girl, I got a hold of it.
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Speaker 2: I'm want to go straight out to doctor Kendall Crown's
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Speaker 2: and talk about that.
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Speaker 1: The fact that we now.
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Speaker 2: Know the two moms just minding their own business on
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Speaker 2: the way to a kid's birthday party. This is all
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Speaker 2: about a custody battle by the grandma. Okay, she wanted
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Speaker 2: the children. She didn't want the.
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Speaker 1: Daughter in law to have them.
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Speaker 2: She didn't even want her own bio son, the biological
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Speaker 2: father of the children, to have them. She wanted them
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Speaker 2: and would do anything to get them, even discussed knocking
16:26
Speaker 2: off the judge and finding out the judges route. Hey, list,
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Speaker 2: let's see the pretty picture of grandma. Okay, yeah, who
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Speaker 2: look at that. It's in her car, but it looks
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Speaker 2: like a glamour shot. At what is she doing orchestrating
16:43
Speaker 2: a double murder? She knew that there would be a
16:46
Speaker 2: friend in the car that said doctor Kendall Crowns. Guys,
16:51
Speaker 2: let me introduce him. He is the chief medical Examiner.
16:56
Speaker 2: That's not easy to do. First undergrad then med school,
17:02
Speaker 2: then you entern, you resident, and then somehow work your
17:07
Speaker 2: way up to becoming the chief medical Examiner Interrent County.
17:12
Speaker 2: That's fort Worth. Never a lack of business lecturer. The
17:15
Speaker 2: Brenett School of Medicine at TCU. Just let that sink him.
17:21
Speaker 2: He's told me he's done. Somewhere in the vicinity of
17:24
Speaker 2: ten thousand autopsies, doctor Kendall Crowns before we got this
17:30
Speaker 2: bombshell evidence. In all of these documents, the defense tried
17:33
Speaker 2: to keep secret. We understood that the two moms are
17:37
Speaker 2: just buried. Why did I say just buried? Buried ten
17:43
Speaker 2: to fifteen feet underground and a cow pasture covered with
17:47
Speaker 2: about I would say a ton of soil cement chunks,
17:52
Speaker 2: and then covered in hay. Now we know they were
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Speaker 2: stuffed into a freezer. I am telling you hell, open
18:01
Speaker 2: your gates because these four are coming. How can I
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Speaker 2: tell now that we're not looking for dirt or particles
18:10
Speaker 2: that you told me about. They could be in their nose,
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Speaker 2: in the back of their throat, going down.
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Speaker 1: To the lungs.
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Speaker 2: How am I going to tell now whether they were
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Speaker 2: dead or alive when they were forced crammed into an
18:23
Speaker 2: ice bucket ice chest.
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Speaker 12: It would actually be difficult to tell one way or
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Speaker 12: another because the ice chest would prevent any dirt from
18:31
Speaker 12: getting into their system. So were they alive when they
18:35
Speaker 12: put into the ice chest? It would be anybody's guests
18:39
Speaker 12: because depending on the type of injuries they had.
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Speaker 2: What about Okay, let me try to verbalize this. I
18:47
Speaker 2: can't speak your league, your medical jargon. But if someone
18:51
Speaker 2: has a blow to the head, you can see that
18:54
Speaker 2: if even if you have to pull their scalp back
18:56
Speaker 2: to find it. If someone is manual or ligature strangled,
19:01
Speaker 2: you can see evidence of that. If they're shot, if
19:04
Speaker 2: they're stabbed, if they're drowned, you'll find evidence of that.
19:07
Speaker 2: But if they were alive, maybe knocked out to subdue them,
19:12
Speaker 2: but alive when they were put in that ice chest,
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Speaker 2: wouldn't they have died of asphyxiation suffocation?
19:20
Speaker 1: And couldn't we see at least that because if these.
19:24
Speaker 2: Two died, go with me, I know you'll make sense
19:28
Speaker 2: that of this thread, doctor Crown's. If they died by
19:35
Speaker 2: suffocation asphyxiation, that will tell me they were alive when
19:40
Speaker 2: they were put in that ice chest. Why, because there's
19:44
Speaker 2: no process of elimination, there's no other mode of murder
19:49
Speaker 2: cause of death, So how else would they have been suffocated?
19:54
Speaker 2: If you don't find bruising on the face or around
19:58
Speaker 2: the mouth where something was held over their face, wouldn't
20:02
Speaker 2: it be a natural, a logical conclusion of what we
20:08
Speaker 2: know well?
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Speaker 12: Correct, So if they have no other physical evidence of injury,
20:12
Speaker 12: then you can call it an.
20:13
Speaker 11: Asphyxiation or suffocation.
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Speaker 12: The problem is is when people are put into freezers
20:18
Speaker 12: and suffocate, which we do see occasionally with kids getting
20:21
Speaker 12: in the freezers. I've even seen suicides where people get
20:25
Speaker 12: inside a freezer and asphixiate is there is actually no
20:29
Speaker 12: findings you can doctor Kendlecrowns.
20:31
Speaker 2: I have never heard of suicide by freezer until right now.
20:37
Speaker 2: So you have actually handle cases where people get into
20:39
Speaker 2: a freezer and shut it to kill themselves.
20:42
Speaker 1: Yes, so what were the findings on those bodies?
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Speaker 12: There's no findings because the assixiation is basically you suffocate
20:51
Speaker 12: and there's no actually injuries that you can find at autopsy. Now,
20:56
Speaker 12: if someone's forced into a freezer and they want to
20:58
Speaker 12: get out, you might see like hemorrhage under their fingernails
21:01
Speaker 12: where they're trying to claw their way out or punching
21:03
Speaker 12: their way out, But there's not going to be anything
21:06
Speaker 12: necessarily that you'll see from the asphyxiation that you can
21:10
Speaker 12: find see.
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Speaker 2: I would argue that Okay, you just said there are
21:15
Speaker 2: no signs that they asphyxiated, that they were alive when
21:21
Speaker 2: they got in the freezer. But I would argue that
21:24
Speaker 2: no signs that that is a sign, because if you
21:29
Speaker 2: would expect these two to be beaten, dead or stabbed, shot, strangled,
21:38
Speaker 2: we don't see any of that. If we don't see
21:41
Speaker 2: any of that other than a blow to the head
21:43
Speaker 2: to subdue them.
21:45
Speaker 1: Then what would be the cause of death? Isn't it true?
21:48
Speaker 1: If you hold something over someone's.
21:50
Speaker 2: Face and they resist, you're going to see some type
21:54
Speaker 2: of evidence around the mouth or the nose where they
21:56
Speaker 2: tried to fight back, or they bit their teeth, bit
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Speaker 2: their tongue, or the inside of their mouth, some form
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Speaker 2: of resistance.
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Speaker 12: Yes, with a smothering where the hands placed over the mouth,
22:08
Speaker 12: you'll get injuries on the enermy coast of the lips
22:11
Speaker 12: from the teeth being pressed against it. You'll also see
22:14
Speaker 12: defensive injuries where they're trying to get the arm off
22:17
Speaker 12: of them, things of that nature. But in someone placed
22:20
Speaker 12: in a if they're knocked out, placed them too a
22:23
Speaker 12: refrigerator and then asphyxiated, you are correct. If there's no
22:27
Speaker 12: injury that would explain why they were dead. It's a
22:30
Speaker 12: diagnosis of exclusion, so all the other factors that could
22:34
Speaker 12: have killed them are ruled out. That means that they
22:37
Speaker 12: were asphyxiated or suffocated in the freezer.
22:39
Speaker 2: And what doctor Kendall Crowns would they have endured if
22:45
Speaker 2: they weren't completely subdued unconscious, what would they have endured
22:51
Speaker 2: in an ice chest?
22:52
Speaker 11: Well, not just the ice test, but buried alive.
22:55
Speaker 12: So you know, you're in this freezer under a ton
22:57
Speaker 12: of dirt, it's dark in there with another individual, the
23:01
Speaker 12: oxygen's running low. You're panic, You're in the dark, screaming,
23:07
Speaker 12: trying to push your way out. You can't get out,
23:10
Speaker 12: and you're basically slowly going into unconsciousness, knowing that there
23:15
Speaker 12: is no way out and that you're going.
23:16
Speaker 2: To die straight out to Lauren Colin, investigative journalist, host
23:19
Speaker 2: of The Outlier podcast Lauren Kitty litter used for liquid
23:25
Speaker 2: absorption of trace evidence, biological DNA evidence, digital photos. I'm
23:32
Speaker 2: very curious what those digital photos are, spatial scans, What
23:37
Speaker 2: do they mean by that? And all other evidence of
23:40
Speaker 2: the crime of murder?
23:42
Speaker 8: Explain Yes, So let's not forget the pools of blood
23:46
Speaker 8: found around the vehicle, which the OSBI stated in these documents,
23:50
Speaker 8: it was either kitty litter or dry oil that was
23:54
Speaker 8: spread all around the truck.
23:57
Speaker 9: So that was really really odd.
24:00
Speaker 8: Really, I mean, just going back to what you stated,
24:03
Speaker 8: it was so so premeditated.
24:06
Speaker 9: And then as far as the spatial scanning.
24:09
Speaker 8: Goes, I'm just thinking to myself that maybe they're just
24:13
Speaker 8: taking certain measurements with the evidence and everything inside that truck,
24:18
Speaker 8: because it sounds to me that there was so much
24:21
Speaker 8: in that truck. And let's also not forget that Cole
24:24
Speaker 8: and Cora Twombley were the ones that stopped Veronica and
24:28
Speaker 8: Jillian in their tracks on that highway, and god knows
24:32
Speaker 8: did what to them.
24:40
Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, I'm going to go to
24:47
Speaker 2: a renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction,
24:51
Speaker 2: Doctor Angela Arnold, Doctor Angie, thank you for being with us.
24:57
Speaker 2: Also Professor Psychiatry, has taught at Emmy University and former
25:03
Speaker 2: medical director of the Psychiatric Obgyan Clinic at Grady Memorial.
25:10
Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many witnesses and defendants and
25:14
Speaker 2: victims I found at Grady that said, doctor Angie, kitty
25:21
Speaker 2: litter those two words have never meant to me what
25:26
Speaker 2: they mean right now. Vast quantities of blood found around
25:31
Speaker 2: the spot where these two ladies were a card act.
25:37
Speaker 2: Can I just see the two ladies, please.
25:40
Speaker 1: Veronica and Jillian.
25:42
Speaker 2: They're on their way to a kid's birthday party, as
25:44
Speaker 2: you know, doctor Angie, you've studied this case, and suddenly
25:49
Speaker 2: their card act.
25:51
Speaker 1: They're brutally attacked.
25:52
Speaker 2: We believe by a hammer because part of the hammer
25:56
Speaker 2: was found near the copious blood bloodpool. And the killers
26:04
Speaker 2: actually think ahead of time to bring kitty litter of
26:09
Speaker 2: some sort to put on the blood to absorb the liquid.
26:16
Speaker 2: And when I look at these two moms in the
26:21
Speaker 2: prime of their lives. Between them, I think there were
26:24
Speaker 2: six children, and I look at these four defendants, My
26:30
Speaker 2: head is about to blow off, Doctor Angie.
26:34
Speaker 1: Kitty litter, kitty litter, Ntzy.
26:37
Speaker 13: It's these two beautiful women that were simply going to
26:42
Speaker 13: a birthday party to see her children literally drove into
26:47
Speaker 13: a trap. And what I have to wonder is apparently
26:51
Speaker 13: they didn't have any fear of this happening to them.
26:56
Speaker 13: I mean, they were going to a birthday party. I'm
26:59
Speaker 13: sure the mother wanted to see these kids who she
27:01
Speaker 13: hasn't been able to see, and I'm not sure how long.
27:06
Speaker 13: I'm sure she was aware that there was a huge
27:09
Speaker 13: custody battle going on, but they drove to this birthday
27:14
Speaker 13: party without any fear, and they literally drove into a
27:17
Speaker 13: trap and were brutally murdered and then buried. And this
27:22
Speaker 13: entire thing sounds like it was all planned out. And
27:25
Speaker 13: I can't even imagine the evil, the evil that those
27:29
Speaker 13: that group of people are made of, that they consist of,
27:33
Speaker 13: that they could have done this to a mother of
27:36
Speaker 13: two beautiful little children that they want custody of.
27:39
Speaker 2: Just thinking about the malice of forethought to Alan Bennett,
27:45
Speaker 2: former prosecutor and now law partner in Gunter Bennett and
27:48
Speaker 2: Anthus the malice of forethought it took to imagine Veronica
27:54
Speaker 2: and Jillian while you're at the store buying kitty letter
27:59
Speaker 2: to so up their blood. Now, as a defense lawyer,
28:04
Speaker 2: what could possibly be the comeback.
28:06
Speaker 10: To that we're representing any one of these individuals, Nancy,
28:10
Speaker 10: I would be racing all the other defense attorneys to
28:13
Speaker 10: the DA's office to express to that lead prosecutor my
28:17
Speaker 10: client is the least culpable of all of these five.
28:20
Speaker 10: My client is already willing and able to sit down
28:22
Speaker 10: and cooperate to the fullest of their ability to assist
28:25
Speaker 10: in the prosecution of these other four people. How can
28:30
Speaker 10: we get this case resolved? I would be trying to
28:32
Speaker 10: negotiate the best possibility.
28:34
Speaker 11: You should not cook for my client.
28:35
Speaker 10: And if I were the prosecutor, much like I'm sure
28:38
Speaker 10: you would have done, Nancy, were you prossing this case,
28:40
Speaker 10: I would say, no, there are no deals, there's no offers,
28:44
Speaker 10: there's no negotiation. Your client wants to flee unnegotiated to
28:47
Speaker 10: the court, so be it. We're not making any deals
28:50
Speaker 10: on this case. Tell your client, thanks, but no thanks.
28:53
Speaker 2: Who is Paul Griss? Trying to figure out exactly how Grice?
29:00
Speaker 2: He looks like a fairly normal guy, got roped into
29:03
Speaker 2: this whole thing, joining me, Lauren Colin, Lauren, who's Paul Grice?
29:08
Speaker 8: So, Paul Grice is very young. He's thirty one years old.
29:11
Speaker 9: He is a father, he is.
29:13
Speaker 8: A husband, and I think a lot of us were
29:16
Speaker 8: very confused at first when the witness named him, and
29:19
Speaker 8: it took so long for him to be arrested.
29:22
Speaker 9: So Nancy, what was also revealed in the most.
29:25
Speaker 8: Recent search warrants was how Paul was eventually arrested. So
29:31
Speaker 8: Paul Grice was actually at Tad Collum's house when police
29:35
Speaker 8: came to arrest Tad, and they found that Paul had
29:38
Speaker 8: a bandaged right pinky finger and he told them that
29:43
Speaker 8: he heard it working.
29:44
Speaker 9: On his pickup.
29:45
Speaker 1: Huh huh. The part about the bandages is damning.
29:49
Speaker 14: Listen according to court documents, the day Tiffany Adams boyfriend
29:53
Speaker 14: Tad Cullum is arrested at his home for the murders
29:56
Speaker 14: of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly, Paul Grise present and
30:01
Speaker 14: FBI agents notice a bandage on his right pinky finger.
30:05
Speaker 14: Gris tells the agents he cut it while working on
30:08
Speaker 14: his truck. Days later, Caleb Roberts tells police he saw
30:12
Speaker 14: Grice March thirty and thirty one with a bandage on
30:15
Speaker 14: his right hand. Gris tells Roberts he cut his hand
30:18
Speaker 14: while cutting fencing.
30:20
Speaker 2: Well, that doesn't make sense unless he's wrapping the fencing
30:23
Speaker 2: around his truck. That's two stories so far, but it's
30:26
Speaker 2: not over yet.
30:27
Speaker 1: Listen.
30:27
Speaker 5: On April seventeenth, days after the bodies of Veronica Butler
30:31
Speaker 5: and Jillian Kelly are dug out of a fifteen foot
30:33
Speaker 5: deep hole. Paul Grice is at Chad Pate's house, asking
30:36
Speaker 5: questions about DNA, such as how long would it take
30:38
Speaker 5: the State labor process DNA evidence, how long DNA would
30:42
Speaker 5: last in dirt, how long DNA would last on clothing
30:45
Speaker 5: in the dirt in a fifteen foot deep hole. Griis
30:47
Speaker 5: tells Pate he's concerned about his DNA being in the
30:50
Speaker 5: hole that Butler and Kelly were found in because he
30:53
Speaker 5: had been in the Twombleys residence. Grice also asks if
30:56
Speaker 5: he knows how to get a guy in his family
30:58
Speaker 5: in New Mexico.
31:00
Speaker 2: I am so happy right now, Hey Gryce, you should
31:07
Speaker 2: have just called in to the show and we could
31:11
Speaker 2: have answered all those questions for you.
31:13
Speaker 1: And then when have it on tape. Doctor Kendall krows.
31:15
Speaker 1: Let's answer a few of those questions.
31:17
Speaker 2: How long does DNA last on clothing or in the dirt.
31:23
Speaker 12: The DNA is going to be available in the dirt
31:26
Speaker 12: for a long time. You look at individuals buried and
31:29
Speaker 12: then dug back up, They're able to get DNA from
31:33
Speaker 12: them for years. So unless the actual physical item that
31:36
Speaker 12: the DNA is on completely goes away. I think they'd
31:40
Speaker 12: still be able to find DNA on it for quite
31:42
Speaker 12: a while.
31:43
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what jury's think, don't you.
31:45
Speaker 2: Have you ever seen Jimmy what's the name of the
31:48
Speaker 2: dinosaur movies?
31:50
Speaker 1: When everybody's yeah, Jurassic Park, we've seen them all.
31:54
Speaker 2: The jurys expect that DNA lasts for millions and millions
31:59
Speaker 2: of years, and that you can get a piece of
32:02
Speaker 2: DNA and basically regenerate the entire person.
32:06
Speaker 1: Actually it's not that far off, because.
32:10
Speaker 2: We now know that DNA of various sorts are found,
32:14
Speaker 2: for instance, in Egyptian tombs, and a lot of investigatory
32:20
Speaker 2: deductions are made from that DNA, So basically forever, doctor
32:26
Speaker 2: kendlegrowns pretty much.
32:29
Speaker 12: My example is the gentleman they found in the iceberg.
32:32
Speaker 12: I think they call him, I see the iceman. They
32:35
Speaker 12: were not only able to figure out his DNA, but
32:38
Speaker 12: also figure out his last meal, and they determined how
32:41
Speaker 12: he was killed. So it's there for a very long time.
32:45
Speaker 12: And then if you're talking about DNA that's in a freezer,
32:48
Speaker 12: which is a sealed environment that's not even going to
32:52
Speaker 12: be subjected to the dirt and environmental conditions.
32:56
Speaker 11: It could be there as forever.
32:58
Speaker 1: So you're answering, is DNA doctor Kennell Crowns.
33:01
Speaker 2: I don't guess you know how to get a quote
33:04
Speaker 2: guy and his family into Mexico, do you, because that's
33:06
Speaker 2: Gryce's next question.
33:08
Speaker 11: Well, for the right price, I could figure it out.
33:10
Speaker 3: New details emerge on brutally murdered Kansas moms. Court docs
33:15
Speaker 3: reveal Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in
33:19
Speaker 3: a buried freezer.
33:21
Speaker 4: Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's vehicle found abandoned just miles
33:26
Speaker 4: from their destination, surrounded by pools of blood.
33:30
Speaker 2: Right now, I'm telling you I would hone in on Gryce, Okay,
33:37
Speaker 2: the one who had all the stories about the injuries
33:40
Speaker 2: to his hands, the one that was frantically asking friends,
33:43
Speaker 2: how do I get my family into Mexico? How long
33:46
Speaker 2: does DNA lasted the dirt? He's scared and he'll talk.
33:51
Speaker 2: I don't know if i'd cut him a deal, though,
33:52
Speaker 2: but I would definitely try to interview him. What more
33:55
Speaker 2: do we know about this guy that could be the
33:58
Speaker 2: weak Lee and the chain?
34:01
Speaker 1: Paul Grise listen.
34:03
Speaker 15: Thirty one year old Paul Grise mentioned as an accomplice,
34:06
Speaker 15: but investigators interviewed him and let him go. According to
34:08
Speaker 15: court documents, Grice was part of God's Misfits along with
34:11
Speaker 15: Tiffany Adams and the other suspects. Cole and Cora. Twombly
34:15
Speaker 15: allegedly blocked the road, diverting Butler and Kelly to where Adams,
34:19
Speaker 15: Tad Cullum, and Grice were waiting. Gris claims he is
34:22
Speaker 15: not a citizen of the USA. He is not a resident,
34:26
Speaker 15: employee or citizen of the United States Government. He says
34:29
Speaker 15: that I hereby asciverate, repudiate, and revoke my citizenship if
34:35
Speaker 15: any ever existed with the legal fiction known as the
34:38
Speaker 15: United States Government, USA Incorporated and any and all subsidiary corporations, State, County, City.
34:47
Speaker 1: Not a citizen of the US government.
34:52
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I totally get him on the stand. Doctor
34:56
Speaker 2: Angela Arnold, a renowned psychiatrist at angela Arnold dot com.
35:02
Speaker 1: What about this guy? He's what did he say?
35:05
Speaker 2: He's repudiating and asseverating and revoking his citizenship if any
35:11
Speaker 2: ever existed?
35:13
Speaker 1: Phil Day on cross right.
35:14
Speaker 13: He's like the linkpin. Is he the person who possibly
35:18
Speaker 13: set up this whold God's misfits organization.
35:22
Speaker 1: I guess not. I just lost all faith in you. Woman.
35:26
Speaker 2: You think this guy, he's writing his manifestos and asking
35:30
Speaker 2: people how long does DNA last in dirt? You think
35:33
Speaker 2: he is the mastermind the brilliant criminal.
35:37
Speaker 1: Seriously, did you just say that?
35:38
Speaker 11: Well?
35:39
Speaker 13: I mean, Nancy, I wonder if he's the mastermind behind
35:42
Speaker 13: God's miss the Stars.
35:44
Speaker 1: You said it again?
35:46
Speaker 2: Okay, Angela, if I may call you that. No, he's
35:52
Speaker 2: not a mastermind of anything. Any ding dong that writes
35:57
Speaker 2: a manifesto like this and goes around asking how does
36:00
Speaker 2: DNA lasting dirt? Like That's not a giveaway. I did
36:03
Speaker 2: something really bad. My DNA may end up in an
36:06
Speaker 2: ice chest with two dead bodies. Okay, Alan Bennett, I
36:13
Speaker 2: guess all of her degrees did not prepare her for
36:15
Speaker 2: this moment. How much would you like to get this
36:18
Speaker 2: guy on cross examination? He's totally the weak link. Go
36:22
Speaker 2: for it.
36:22
Speaker 10: No, And I think that's what the doctor's point may be.
36:26
Speaker 10: That's the scariest part of all of this is that.
36:29
Speaker 11: That guy is the mastermind.
36:31
Speaker 10: That's the guy who's deposited all the funds into this
36:35
Speaker 10: brain trust.
36:35
Speaker 2: Okay, you know what I'm clearly screaming out the window
36:39
Speaker 2: on Park Avenue. Chris mcdunna joining me, Director, Cold Case Foundation,
36:43
Speaker 2: homicide detective. He's not the mastermind. The grandma is the mastermind.
36:49
Speaker 2: Could you please explain why this guy, mister is hewng
36:55
Speaker 2: is DNA lasting dirt, Why he's not the mastermind?
36:58
Speaker 11: Yeah?
36:58
Speaker 6: Great, the masterminding if anything. You know, when you thought
37:03
Speaker 6: you've seen everything, here come the misfits. And you know
37:06
Speaker 6: he's just one of those, you know, not the sharpest
37:09
Speaker 6: tool on the shed for lack of a better term.
37:11
Speaker 6: And he sounds like a sober and citizen, you know,
37:14
Speaker 6: those guys and gals that say, hey, I'm not part
37:16
Speaker 6: of the United States. I'm in the middle of nowhere,
37:20
Speaker 6: so therefore you have no authority over me. So I
37:25
Speaker 6: agree with you one hundred percent, Nancy. He's the weak link.
37:28
Speaker 6: The authorities keep the pressure on him, and hopefully he's
37:31
Speaker 6: already talked.
37:32
Speaker 2: Okay, guys, we are waiting as this case inches forward
37:37
Speaker 2: to trial. And here's my advice to the prosecutor. Since
37:41
Speaker 2: nobody asked, don't take a plea. Do not take a plea.
37:47
Speaker 2: Two ladies, mothers are dead and likely may have died
37:54
Speaker 2: in that ice chest or else they had their brains
37:59
Speaker 2: beaten out with a hammer on the highway.
38:03
Speaker 1: Uh huh. Don't take a deal with one of them.
38:06
Speaker 1: You don't need a deal.
38:08
Speaker 2: Let them all stew in the same pot. We stop
38:14
Speaker 2: to remember Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely. Just twenty nine, Deputy
38:20
Speaker 2: Sheriff Tucker Blakely shot and killed responding to a domestic Knoxville, Tennessee,
38:27
Speaker 2: US Army Vet combat medic. He has survived by a
38:31
Speaker 2: grieving wife, Katerina, and his five year old little boy,
38:37
Speaker 2: American hero, Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely. Let me thank all
38:43
Speaker 2: of our guests. What a brain trust joining us today.
38:48
Speaker 2: But I especially want to thank you for being with
38:50
Speaker 2: us tonight and every night. Thank you to our MSM
38:54
Speaker 2: viewers and family. Nancy Gray signing off good night
38:59
Speaker 14: Friend said to be at