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Prayer Doesn't Replace the Work · Don Talk - Conversations with Mike Turner

• Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I'm supposed to be able to carry it all. I'm supposed to be like Superman. Well we're no no Superman. And especially what we've gone through in our culture and and society as black men, that'll be like going and having a massive car accident and then your leg dangling, hangling off, your foot hanging off, you're bleeding. don't want to go to the hospital, I'm good. Like what what what do you mean? There's effects to everything that we go through, and that's the biological processes and parts of it as well. We don't look at that. And that's the main thing I think people or men look at it as if I'm less than a man because I need help. I'm supposed to be able to carry everything on my back. And that's why many, so many of our backs are broken. Mike Turner: Welcome everybody to another episode of Don Talk Conversation with Mike Turner. We got a good one here today talking about faith, therapy, and the pressures to have it all together. Dr. Marshall Thompson on here, man. I appreciate you taking the time to jump on with me, man, and and get this going. You know, I don't want to throw out your your your accolades, but you a you a a coach, MMA fighter, you you you I don't know if you a pastor or you teach at the church, like minister, we'll say minister, you're kind of doing it all. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: So yeah, yeah. So I'm a the youth minister at my church and the young adult minister of my church. I run that run off. Mike Turner: Awesome man. You also also got a lot going going on. So I truly appreciate it. So we g we talking about let this here, man. So a lot of men were taught that when life gets hard you pray about it. And I'm not questioning prayer. That's not my my thing here. What I am asking is when I pray about it becomes another way of saying I don't want to talk about it. Because sometimes we call it faith when what we're really doing is avoiding something. So s you know, so this is kind of the basis, like faith therapy and why men feel pressured to have it everything together. So as a psychologist, you know, and a man of faith, have you seen men use faith to heal? And have you also seen men Let's just start off with that question right there. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: that's a that's a loaded question. I love that question. You said something that I say all the time as a in regards to that, but sometimes we actually use it as a way to avoid responsibility. I not only find that with me and just in general, I mean with everything. I have a martial arts academy too, where and I tell people, people say, Man, they can't believe I said I said the worst people to come to me are my church members and people that are my family. They're the worst people. They are there. Church people in my family are the exact the worst people to come to my business. Why? There comes in a little bit of entitlement with it and avoidance. Two, because they feel that, hey, I can say, how you feeling that I'm blessed and I'm highly favored. They got nothing to do with this workout. I hope you take that through. But I always have to come back and kind of reiterate it that the Bible says that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. So why you give me all this talk later on? I can't do this. What happened to this spiritual disguise? I talk you would give me. So I'm a person I believe faith without works is dead, and that's one of things that we don't implement enough in our community. We wanna pray about it or tell I'm gonna go pray about it. A lot of times people say I'm gonna pray about too to get out of responsibility for doing the work they need to do or something you don't want to do. brother you you gonna do this for me next week can you help me? I'm gonna pray about it. You really know you're gonna say no or you don't wanna do it. When you just and then you're lying, you're using Christ to lie. So but yeah, in mental health, a lot of people use that as a cop out to actually doing the work 'cause it's hard to do the work. And that's a lot of times why we're in the situation that we're in. Because we don't want to do the work. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're right on. So I'm gonna give you we're gonna start off with this little little game I like to call. I'm gonna give you some sayings that men men say and I want you to actually tell me what you think Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: What you Mike Turner: they actually mean. All right. So Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Okay. Mike Turner: first first one is I'm good. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I don't know what I feel. I don't know how I feel. I don't know what I feel. And this is a way to me avoid being accountable for any of my feelings. I'm good. I'm good. I'm too Mike Turner: Mm-hmm We say it too often, yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: often we see it all the time and we don't wanna hold the responsibility of diving into our feelings and we can use it as a cop out as if we're men so we don't have to feel. Because if I feel then it makes me less of a man. Mike Turner: Yeah. That's what we was taught growing up. Like, you know, I'm 49. Everybody I was around at that point in time, if you show any type of emotion, don't cry. It's a weakness. You know. you feel something a certain type of way, it's a weakness. You just gotta man up and take it. And that was a thing that we we were dealing with growing up. So it's it's definitely a different age, but we gotta approach it differently now. the next one is it is what it is. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: The same thing. It is what and you don't even know what what what is it is what it is. But what what are you gonna do to change what it is? Or what's your responsibility Mike Turner: Mm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: in the results of it being what it is? What role did you play in Mike Turner: I Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: that? And that doesn't give us any of that. Mike Turner: I love it. What are you gonna do to change what it is? I love that. next one, God got me. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Another thing that I don't have to take any responsibility because God had you when it happened. Where was God then? But Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: He also gives us free will. And that's the one thing about Christianity. He gives He's not gonna force us to do anything. And the people say it all the time. What's they saying? Everything happens for a reason. Yeah. And sometimes the reason is you. Mike Turner: No Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: You you're the reason why it happened. And we don't dig enough into Our responsibility and our role again. They all all these is a avoidance tactics. They're gonna add back into the same thing. Same equation. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Yep, so here we go. I got a couple more. They're probably gonna end up all being the same thing, but it's still interesting. I'll figure it out. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I don't have to put any time with it. I don't have to commit to being accountable for any time frame. So whenever I get it done is when I get it done. So if I don't get it done, it's okay because nobody can check me on it because I didn't give you a definite time frame. Mike Turner: yeah. I've said all this before. I ain't even gonna lie. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: We probably all have. Mike Turner: I don't need anybody. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: That lone Island thing as a man that helps us to stay alone. And it also keeps us from being accountable because if I do need somebody that shows that guess what? I'm actually in need and I'm not as strong as I say I am. So it can kinda help us to be the person that we want to be perceived at. Even if we go in a room later on and cry or go into another hole, in that moment, I don't need anybody. I'm tough. And that's never helped us anything, especially in our lives. But that's the biggest place in Christianity that the devil wanna get us in, the place of being alone. So he can beat up on us by ourselves. Strong Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. And the one Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: numbers. Mike Turner: yeah, about one hundred percent, but two or three are gathered. Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Yeah, he's in a myth. Mike Turner: So here's the one that that we're gonna touch upon a lot. I'll pray about it. Kinda said it earlier too, but like I'll pray about it. What does that mean? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Now, I don't not like I'll pray about it. I only don't like I'll pray about it if you ain't gonna work with your prayer. That's like people that talk about they gonna they're gonna fast. But if you ain't praying, you just dieting. You gotta pray and fast. Get the same thing with those. I gotta pray and do the work or pray and listen. Because I get I like that because if you're gonna do it in the right order, 'cause you gotta acknowledge God in all your ways and He directs your path. So I start praying and try to get the direction, but the prayer isn't a cop out to not do work. Mike Turner: Yeah, it's like one of my favorite verses or that that church people use all the time is they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. I like I hate when they use that because the original Greek and Hebrew meaning of wait is to actively seek. And and Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mike Turner: most church people I've encountered think that wait, I'm just gonna sit here and wait for God to answer my prayer. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: And God gonna make something miraculously come down from heaven. He did bring some stuff from heaven, but it was the children of Israel and he fed them the manor, but they were on a mission and they were walking, they was in progress. But then we look scripturally too. There's a the guy at the pool of Bethesda, he was laying there for all those years and nothing was happening. He was waiting, and even they asked him, he still didn't want the help that he said he wanted based off the actions of helping me get in. So yeah, you're on. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. So now which one of those phrases as a psychologist do you feel worries you or concerns you the most when men say? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I'm gonna be honest with you, all of because all of Mike Turner: Hello. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: are avoidance avoidance tactics 'cause I'm ask little bit more. Each if I hear those, I'm ask something right behind it to ask to give me an idea of where your really your mindset is and what your your goals are if you really just use it for a cop out mechanism. Mike Turner: So what's what's your next question after that? Barring you have time, because a lot of this is in passing. How's it going, brother? And you'd be like, I'm good, you know, and we just keep it moving. But if if you're not walking by and you seriously having a conversation with somebody and they say I'm good, what's the next question? We sh we all should be asking one another. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I ask them exactly how are you good and what are you good in? What are you working on? Depending on what the situation is. Are you okay, brother? Because I find a lot of times we ask people, I used to do it to mess with people sometimes. They was How you how you doing? I was like, I'm terrible. They were all right, we have a good day. People are not even listening to how we feel, especially as men, because we used to not speaking on our feelings. So the best thing to do is to ask. And actually ask, how are you how you really doing and what does that really mean? How's your life doing? How you doing in your life? How you doing with your wife? How you doing with your job? How you doing with your kids? Especially if you know that person, you know some areas in which they we're dealing with. So I that scenario, you really need to know exactly who the person is. If you don't know, I need to say, brother, you really are 'Cause I'm here if you need something. Mike Turner: Right. Yeah. That's a good one. Now no, Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Yeah, but in a therapeutic go ahead. Mike Turner: go ahead, go ahead. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: No, in a therapeutic setting, I would know the history of that person. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: So I would ask, what does that really mean in relationship to the things that they were dealing with? And based off their response, it'll let me know if they really are good or if they're just saying it to buy back. But sometimes sometimes people say we're good because they don't want to be held accountable. And you think that just because people come to the therapist that they want help, sometimes they don't come to the therapist to get help. Sometimes they come to the therapist to actually validate how they feel and actually to try to avoid some things that they're dealing with because they don't want to really encounter. But I can kind of see through that sometimes. Or don't show up at certain times when they know they ain't doing what they're supposed to be doing based off of the information that you've been giving them. Mike Turner: Yeah, and so you think a lot of times is it like I can if you ask me that, I can feel you really don't wanna know anyway, so I'm just saying I'm good anyway, 'cause men don't ask other men the honest truth about how you're doing and want to know. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: And you're correct, and that's where I was explaining when I when I would say, I'm doing terrible or I ain't doing too good. And I say, You didn't even hear me. People, you didn't hear me. I just told you I wasn't doing good. my bad. What's going what's wrong? then some people just My bad, and they still keep they still keep going. They don't even ask me what's wrong with me. Mike Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I don't do that anymore, but I I used to find that interesting. I'm just Mike Turner: Yeah. So which one honest question, which one have you found yourself using most recently or have you used any of those most recently? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: For me, I can't say any of right now because I may verbalize a little bit too much for some people's liking. Just gonna be honest with you. Maybe one, probably my wife. You know. Mike Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I'm gonna verbalize if something doesn't sit right with me, if I don't feel right about something, 'cause I'm not gonna harbor it, 'cause that's what a danger is. We harbor all those feelings and then we have a threshold effect that that's basically when the things build up, build up and now you left home this morning and you got a ticket, you had a then you had a flat tire, then you went to work and your boss got on your nerves, then you realized something right, and you forgot to lock the door, locked your keys in the car, came back, and now next thing you know, you get home, you hit the dog, whoop your children and beat your wife. All right. And that happens because we didn't deal with it. And it just starts bowling up balling up and accumulating. I think that we that a lot, especially in our community, in the African-American community, not just men, but women as well. They might not do it as much as we do it. Or it or it comes out differently, it presents itself differently. Mike Turner: Mm. And that's that's one of the foundations of why I wanna have these conversations so people can see they're necessary and and start to have them amongst their peers because I don't want anybody to to have s them those emotions so bottled up that they end up acting out on the wrong thing. You know, for for me I can admit that me acting out was bottling that stuff. It just w was projected in the wrong way at work. You know, 'cause I can only hold it in for so long. And and I I realize that now because I had no positive outlet to either talk about it, to release it. So yeah, we gotta we gotta release that for sure. But then that that kind of brings me to like the next topic. you know, men men hire experts for cars, plumbing, fitness, yet often believe they can fix everything happen that happens inside themselves. So what's the biggest misunderstanding that black men, men period, have about therapy? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Well, you talked a little bit about it earlier and just simple fact that it's basically a weak thing to do. I don't need if I need a therapist, that means that I'm crazy in a sense. Or I'm not the man that I'm supposed to be because I'm supposed to be able to carry it all. I'm supposed to be like Superman. Well we're no no Superman. And especially what we've gone through in our culture and and society as black men, that'll be like going and having a massive car accident and then your leg dangling, hangling off, your foot hanging off, you're bleeding. don't want to go to the hospital, I'm good. Like what what what do you mean? There's effects to everything that we go through, and that's the biological processes and parts of it as well. We don't look at that. And that's the main thing I think people or men look at it as if I'm less than a man because I need help. I'm supposed to be able to carry everything on my back. And that's why many, so many of our backs are broken. Mike Turner: yeah, can you tell the difference between when somebody's coming in just to get validation and or really trying Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Sure, sure. You definitely can tell. Mike Turner: to heal and grow and learn? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: You can tell by the type of things they ask, they you can tell by the type of things they say. If they're saying more things, they want to be applauded. Or they want to show how good they are, but then they're avoiding things that don't show those things. And a lot of times that comes from the systems that we live in, our hun unhealthy fa family systems. Right? So if you live in a system that was more reward based, you find value in you doing something that's worth it. Whether I played on so let's use for example. We play sports and I live in a household. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: And in my household, my mom, my dad don't really praise me. I do something bad, they always saying something what the what we quote unquote say is bad as children. And then when I make all A's or I hit a win a touchdown, then guess what? That's my boy. That's Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: my that's that's my you saw how Junior was doing. And what that does is that tells me subconsciously that I'm only valuable when I do something. When I do something that's worth it. And I don't get that unconditional positive regard that we're supposed to have as being healthy. All right. So what I mean by that is, am I am I going too far off what you asked me? Mike Turner: No, no, you're good. You you keep on going. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: so I don't get that unconditional regard. And what that means is so we got babies, right? I don't know, do you have any kids? Mike Turner: I have a twenty six year old daughter. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Okay, 26-year-old daughter. Do you remember when she was a baby? Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Right. She craft a lot. Did she change her own diaper ever? She never. Mike Turner: Yeah. No. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I think I remember my son even changed to get ready to change his diaper and either he had a explosive diarrhea in my face once, he don't need one. It happens. Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: But when that happened, did you throw the kid out? Did you even get mad? No. Mike Turner: Mm-mm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: You didn't. Why? Because you loved that child so much that what they did Didn't define who they were. But what we do is, as they get older, we start defining who they are by what they do. And they realize they grew up in a performance-based system. So now I think that guess what? Now I'm only good when I do something. So they have a lot of guys who I have to be validated. So guess what? I gotta get this on my neck. I gotta get these earrings. I gotta get this car. I need to have this girl. I need to have this. I need to have all these different things going on so I can feel like I'm the man. When you don't have to feel like a man to be a man, I said all the time. On a bad day, a dog never starts meowing and acting like a cat. It don't happen. He's gonna Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: park because no matter what he feels or what's going on, he's still a dog. But we lose that. in our in our way of life because of how we're treated. And that and that actually creates a codependence type lifestyle too. You gotta we got healthy kids, right? And we got unhealthy kids. So the the opposite of that would be my son does something, let's say if he does one of the worst things it is that he can do. I'm gonna punish him, but I'm still gonna let him know, hey, they had to get on you because you did XYZ, but you know that I still love you. You know, I still love you, you know that, right? Yeah, I know that. Then when he does something good, I still applaud him as well. So that gives me the balance. So when I do that, what happens? Let's say it's a little girl, let's say it's a little boy. Let's say the little boy, we're gonna use stereotype. So let's say little boy's been pressured to smoke, to smoke weed in school. Right? Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Yep. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Little boy that grows up in a performance-based system, who he only got applauded when he did certain things. He gonna be like, yeah, I'm gonna go ahead, I'll I'll go ahead and smoke it because he don't wanna be called weak, he don't wanna be called a punk, he don't want to be called whatever words they use today. Right? On the other side, a guy that came out of a healthy family system that didn't give him accolades just only when he did something right, he gonna be like, nah, I'm good. And then he's not gonna care. When if guy says, you punk or you a buttons, like, man, whatever, I don't need you, because he really feels like he don't need them. Vice versa, with the girl who's going through somebody's trying to pressure him for sex. I don't have to give you my body to feel validated because I know that I'm valuable anyway. I've been taught this as a child. But when you've been treating them that way, you might not recognize it. But even though it had nothing to do with sex when you were doing it, but now you taught him that my actions. is one of good what's gonna make me be approved of or loved. So now I am gonna give it up just to be giving it up. And that works for males and females, vice versa. So I know I went off a little bit, but just want to let you get an understanding of how and where that comes from that validation. So it's easy to see and especially when you start talking to them and recognize how they grew up. So Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: that system is that system. It's like you got on glasses right now. Right? So everybody has on a pair of glasses and their prescription comes from how they were raised. And everybody Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: has a lens that ain't so clear. They just think that it is because you're used to operating with those lenses on. Now some people are more some people's lenses are more black than others. Some of them are blind. All right. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: But some of them are clearer, but it's off of the family system. And we all have some type of unhealthy family system that we've grown up in. And when you're talking to people and you ask the right questions, you already know what prescription they have or what prescription they need to help them see better. So the the goal of therapy is for me to help you obtain a cognitive shift to be able to see where your thinking and your processes are not as healthy. And you do it. And we in this land where there's so many coaches that don't really have a background and know how to do therapy. And it's very dangerous because they're giving advice. I'm not giving you any advice. My job is to help you have a healthier lens and give you tools where you can advise yourself in every situation off of things that we've found out in science, not off of us just guessing that's been tested. Mike Turner: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And that's the thing. So like what what every there's a lot of people that's probably listening and that they're gonna Man, I'm I'm at that space right now. Like I've come to the realization over time that I'm in this performance based, you know, environment where I have to perform for for gratification or validation. If you realize that, what is the next step? Like where does the work begin? You've accepted it and understood it. Like what's the next step? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: So the next step is to get with a good evidence-based therapist, okay? Even me being a having a PhD in clinical psychology, I've gone to family therapy with my wife, me and my wife. We got there. And I'm banging my head like, what is this dude talking about? It it didn't make n a lot of stuff. He ain't been in the business for a a while, all right? He was a Caucasian male, and I'm not against Caucasian males, but sometimes they don't work as well with us culturally, so you gotta find one that's culturally effective for you. But if I have to had some, 'cause I had a female therapist who's white, she's amazing. But he wasn't getting it. And he was everything that he was saying, it came from that happy wife, happy life mantra, which isn't real because we gotta have Mike Turner: Mm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: a happy spouse to have a happy house and both of us have to be happ happy. Right. So Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: with that, I would just beat my head like, man, this ain't going nowhere. We live no worse than where we were when we before we came in. And I, you know, typing up a lot of stuff. I came back, I said, Man, I'm just curious. I noticed you're not using this, you're not using this, you're not doing this, things like that. Do you he said, No, I don't do any of those things. He basically said he just goes off of his head. That's not what I want. Imagine if we were going to have surgery on our heart. And we went to a th surgeon that said, Man, I just do what I feel like. I don't have any plan. I just go, No, that's not what I want. I want to know what's been working, what's been proven to work, and for you to be able to give me a plan on how to work. So the first thing to do is give it a f a evidence-based, a good evidence-based therapist. Right? And all of them don't have to be on PhDs, all of them have didn't have to have a clinical a degree in clinical psychology. They're different areas of psychology, okay? Which is fine. But in that And that person has to be able to take you back to seeing those malafter thought processes to help you recognize that what you were thinking wasn't rational. And the system that you used when you were a child was healthy for you then to cope and to get where you are, but it's no longer useful for you now as an adult. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: So, and recognize that. Let's say, for instance, I might recogni I think that a common one you hear in the world is My parents got divorced and they got divorced because of me and they didn't like me and this like that type of thing you hear on TV with different other things. So it's using that example. And you would have to actually let them know. And look at it now. Like, have you ever been with somebody in relationship? Or are you married with children? And did those children affect how you responded to your spouse? Or why you didn't want to be with them? No. Okay, so Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: the same thing then. So back then even though you felt that way, that wasn't true. And realize your parent you're forty years old or thirty five years old. And now you're recognizing that you're really not that different than where you were a couple years ago. So you could probably have your parents, even though they were 35 or 40 when they were divorced, they were immature in a lot of areas or they weren't as healthy in a lot of areas. And a lot of these sys symptoms that you have right now actually come from them. Let me show you how you picked up these systems and let me show you now where that came from. And also now we're gonna combat these things. When really this was just your dad's lack of ability to commit. It was your mom's lack of ability to not control. That's why she's OCD and this other thing, blah blah blah. So it has nothing to do with you. It was all to do with them. You see that? Yeah, I see that. So now my brain starts turning over and I start using that in different scenarios and different things. And I start swapping things out with healthy instead of the Mike Turner: Mm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: unhealthy processes that we've learned. So I have to actually go through those things and keep processing. And that's how I get where I am. If that makes sense. Mike Turner: Yeah. No, it makes sense. I think that's what a lot of men are afraid of is they see the chink in their armor and they don't want to address it. and that's a that's where we end up failing ourselves because I'm I'm weak, I could do this, I got this, you know. what about like when you when people use that excuse of, Well, I don't got the money to pay for a therapist, my insurance doesn't pay for a mental health counseling. What do you say to those individuals? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I'm gonna say it's BS. That's what I'm gonna say. My wife just walked in and gave me a slushie. I said, if you y'all gonna get slushies and ice cream, you can find a sugar-free one, bring me one. She brought me one. So to kind of throw me off a little bit. I'm happy. He will find Mike Turner: There you go. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: he will find a wife finds a good thing. Good thing. In Jesus' name. Don't mean it's perfect, but I appreciate it. All right. Mike Turner: A good thing, a favor in the sight of God. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: but so when they say that men will find people will pay for what they want. And what they find value in. But a lot of times people will start and they go to therapy and they don't want to pay for it because for one, they aren't getting help and they're not with a person that's helping them. They're not meeting their needs. Sometimes though, and I I rarely have that because people really tend to like me, I'm just to be honest with you, they tend to like me and Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I keep it real. I go all the way even though a minister just like us I'm in the ministry, just like I said a moment ago, that was BS. It's BS. And I meant what I said, you know. So I'll be a little bit unlike Peter sometimes in some of my therapy sessions if I need to to help somebody understand what I'm saying and that's how they relate. So I think sometimes it's because the need's not getting met, but the majority of times I think people avoid therapy because somebody's actually calling them out and calling them a change. Especially Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: if you look at a couple's therapy type of situation. So imagine now we in a couples therapy situation and I'm in it with my wife and I'm the person being told that everything that I'm doing is wrong or most of the things I'm doing is wrong and it goes aligned with what she's saying now. you just you just hired this man you must know this man when I don't know you from nowhere in the world. It's Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: just that what you're doing is unhealthy and you got a whole fa health unhealthy family system. And it's actually hard when I go back. We talk about the parents again and I know we're jumping off from two different things but I want to tie something together. It's very important to understand an unhealthy family system. Because when I don't understand that unhealthy family system, who am I gonna run back to most of the time and get advice for when things go wrong with my famil with my family? I'm gonna back to the people that taught me, my dad, my mom, my sister, brother, she's stupid, she did this, not realizing we all got the same dirty lenses on. So you're asking for help for somebody else. So when you get a person like me that's unbiased, and I'm gonna hold you to the fire. And a lot of guys really like me. All right, and they like me because I keep it 100 or real. And I hold the women to the fire too, compared to like the therapist I went to, the happy wife, happy life. No, you're wrong. And we're gonna explain why you're wrong. His feelings matter too. And I'm going I'm not going over the the cultural stereotypes and holding them up of his feelings don't matter. No. He was hurt when you said that. And why did you say that? And that was a narcissistic characteristic that you just did. Or that was a grandiose sense of self that you used. Why do you think that was? So so yeah, I think that they don't want to. They just don't want to be held accountable. Mike Turner: Yeah. And I think that's a I think a lot of men see it that way and they have hesitancy hesitancy of going to therapy with their partner because they automatically think that the therapist number one is gonna be a woman and is gonna take her side, your your partner's side, and not have any no ground for him to stand on and he's feel he's gonna get attacked the whole time. So why am I gonna I get attacked at home, I'm gonna get attacked there, why even go? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Exactly. Instead of recognizing that I'm coming to be helped. No different than if my ankle was hurt or my knee was hurt or it was broke. I gotta reset it and put that bone back. It's not gonna feel good. It's not gonna feel good all the time. And that's the part that we have to really get into understanding that it's a process. And we have to go through the process. I gotta go through to get to where I need to get to. But a lot of times we don't want to do that. We don't want to work. We want to be lazy. We'll work 80 hours, 40 hours for somebody at job and don't want to spend five hours working with our spouse over an issue. Or on ourselves. Or we expect that. Mike Turner: Mm. Yeah. Relationship take work. Yeah. It takes work. So what Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I'm sorry. we expect that we've gone through something for 30 years and it's going to disappear overnight. Man, you've been in there. Mike Turner: Disappear. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Unhealthy system for 30 years. You grew up Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: in a house where you you this was going drug in the house, it was emo lack of emotion regulation. You had all type of unhealthy coping mechanisms shown to you. And you think you're gonna be fine after a day. It don't work it don't work like that. And we gotta do the work and we gotta keep doing the work. Just like working out. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: You're not gonna work out for three months and get results. And then stop and think you're gonna keep the results. It don't work. And nor you're gonna work Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: out for a week and think you lost some weight. It don't work like that most times for most people. Now there are some occasions where we can make some adjustments and I show you something right then and it changes you from that point on because it's like, yeah, I see that. But it takes some time. Mike Turner: Yeah, for sure. What what about that that man like just my age, around my age and and who grew up in church and said, If I got God, why do I need a therapist? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Well, because there are a lot of things that God gives us and processes and we can predict success and failure based off what we do. We got a lot of people that are in the church and a lot of old people got problem, the same problem they had when they were young. And we forget that peace that faith without works is dead. We gotta actually do that works. And we also look at our thought process. The Bible says as a man thinketh, so is he. So if you hadn't changed your thought processes and how you think, then you're not gonna change either. I don't care how old you are, you got a lot of old fools doing the same thing they were doing when they were young. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Now is there is there things that therapy is not designed to provide that faith can provide. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: So, I'm gonna say this. The law of reciprocity says you reap what you sow. And the Bible always also says he reigns on the just and an unjust alike. So meaning you can follow the principles and still get success. Cause you reap what you sow. So there's a lot of books out right now. If you think about it, what's some of those books' name that thinking grow rich and all there's a lot of books out there. They're not talking about God, so to speak, but they use a lot of God's principles and people get the same results. Even with therapy, I think a lot of therapy, if it's done right, is actually comes from the principles of God that are in the Bible. It's just we don't know how to fix it. As a man thinks, so is he. But how do you help that person? not think that way and think another way. So now we break down some cognitive behavior therapy, some evidence-based therapies to teach you how to think a certain way. So anger, anxiety, and depression, they all come from the same thing. I specialize in those too. I do a lot. Okay? They come from the same thing. It's your thought processes. And like the Bible says, be slow, be slow to anger. Alright, be slow to speak. A couple of different things they say. So guess what? But how do I do that? So now I teach you That hey, I'm having road rage in my car. Get your mother, y'all in my lane, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Bible tells you to do things, but it doesn't always teach you how to do it. So it's up to us to do that workpiece. So that I can explain to you, hey, guess what? So what's happening is while you're in that car, this person. Swerved at you, your thought process said, He's trying to kill me. He's trying to wreck me, wreck run into me, try to run me off the road, trying hurt my child. That was your thought. You shouldn't have taken that thought. So immediately now, once I trained myself on looking at cognitive distortions, once I trained myself on replacing those thoughts with rational thoughts, and I would immediately think, dang, did it make me an asshole? When that person was in my blind spot and I didn't see them? Did it make me a terrible driver? When I looked down for a second, or I was tired from coming from work, or I just got into an argument with my wife and I couldn't. I didn't want to process, I didn't I wouldn't process her. Or when I picked up my phone for that split second, looked at something, didn't even realize I didn't even know I swerved over at her. Did that make me a butthole? No. Or an asshole, whatever you want to say, no. But we have to train our minds to think that way, and that comes through the practice and the work and a good therapist teaching you to say that. I was driving one day, same stuff I teach had hit me. It hit me right in my face. I was at the light, trying to rush home. I was that time I was working the VA and I was coming back home on break trying to do something. I was at the light. The light just turned yellow. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: The car sat there. No light. What are you doing, man? I could you Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I'm like I mean literally we pulled up, both of us pulled at the same time, he stopped the super turn yellow turn, we both would have made. Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: And I'm like, man, that's a dump. And I had to immediately my brain processed. I looked, I said that dude's old. And I immediately thought he probably what if he's in his life? He what if he lost a wife because she went through a yellow light, a yellow light, not a yellow light, yeah, a yellow light, and the person ran. They're red light. Or what if he's just enjoying life right now and saying, you know what? I'm enjoying every moment. Whatever it might be, I'm in the wrong because I don't have a right to get mad because he chose to stop right now. And I processed myself and I was fine. I didn't get mad. I was like, man, let me stop tripping. But that comes from the therapeutic part. Mike Turner: Yeah. You made a good you made a good point though. Yeah, that that's a good point 'cause I've I feel perse personal opinion that a reason why a lot of men don't go to church because we're logical in our thinking, there's a there's A to B, Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: there's steps that we gotta take to get to B and the church doesn't teach that. They make you feel good. Yeah, you're good. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: And they operate a lot on the emotional I'm gonna cut you off. You you got brought they operate a lot on the emotionalism. That's why so many more women like to be there. Go ahead, I'm sorry. Mike Turner: Yeah, no, no, you're right on. Like we and that's I think I grew up in a Pentecostal PAW church, you know. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Okay. Mike Turner: So it's you you you leave feeling good, but where's a practical application to help me out from A to you know getting from Monday to s to Saturday to I get back in there? Even Bible study they're teaching what you should memorize and what you should live by, but not giving me work on how to achieve it. That's a big big problem. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: And most of the time there's nothing. When you go to church, but a lot of the churches, there's nothing but a sugar rush. You feel high for the moment, you leave, you ain't got nothing. Ain't got no strength to fight the rest of the week. You didn't get any nutritional value out of it. Mike Turner: Yeah, exactly. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: When that should be something that gives you hope and it helps you go for the rest of your week and actually Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: give some tools to use and stuff to you. I don't and it's like I don't want to talk about the f the building fund every week. I'm sorry. Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I have some issues. I feel like if you meet people needs, they'll pay and meet your needs. They'll be they're not only will they pay, they'll be bringing people because they other people won't help. Yep. Mike Turner: Mm. Yeah. That's that No, you're right, we could we could talk I I could talk about that portion all day long. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I can too. I can too. And tell the wonder why they won't do it, cause you ain't doing nothing. You're Mike Turner: Right. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: not no you you're doing what you want to do. You're not meeting people's needs. You're not meeting the needs. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Yep, yep. All right, so let's get a little personal for you. what did Marshall, the psychologist, understand about Marshall the man, that had a hard time accepting? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: man, that the only person that I can control is myself. And I'm not void of responsibility, nor am I void of conflict because I understand what people, a lot of people don't understand. Because it would mean being a clinical psychologist, that's the highest terminal degree you're gonna have in psychology and understanding to break down. But I still gotta live in the house. I still gotta live in my marriage. And my wife don't give a damn about me being doctor Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Thompson in the midst of a conflict. As a matter of fact, that can be a little harder sometimes because you can feel like, you just gonna say this because you know what to say, or that or you just trying Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: to manipulate what it ain't the case at all. In the heat of the moment, I still gotta deal with all the same stuff. If not Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: even worse sometimes, and recognize that only person I control is me. The only person that I can control is me. And it doesn't make me The superior either, because I know what I know, and I gotta eat it and keep going. I gotta Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: eat it and keep going. Mike Turner: Yeah, what's that one thing that you're willing to admit that you've been praying, praying, praying and then you realize your praying ain't being answered because you know what? I have not been doing the work. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Let me see. Let me see. Let me see. I would have to Think about even physical health. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: There are some things that isn't the way that I wanted to be with my physical health, even though I'm in much better shape than most people. There's some things in my family, like we have genetic high blood pressure, some heart disease, stuff, some other things that go on within my family that I struggle with. And I don't all the time Handle the protocols the way that I should. That's why I asked when they left, give me some sugar for you. I've been off sugar for the last two and a half years, refined sugar. Some things that I've done. But in the other side, I'll do things that I know I shouldn't do, which is eat more carbs than I should eat. And they'll turn into sugar. And I get those same effects. So being consistent in that area, being disciplined in that area. I think that's that's one of the main the main areas. That I can that I can say, that I can think of. I'm sure a lot more. Sure a lot more. Those things pop up. Mike Turner: Yeah, not yeah, that's good. But you make a good point about the health and f and physical fitness. I think I think that we sometimes we the the people generally speaking the church forgets about God has placed people like you, to place true people that have able to study the body and how it reacts to certain things in our life for us to better ourselves and we don't take full advantage of it. Like I've I'm seeing this Eastern medicine doctor. And he was like, in order to heal your mind, body, and spirit, you gotta you have to cleanse your body of all the junk that's not supposed to be in there. Because that is blocking you from the healing process that you need to undergo to get where you should be and need to be. So if I'm continuing to eat junk and sugar, which my body don't process well, then it's hindering me from the growth processes I need to experience. And it's Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: And then you waste doing your wheel. You you're sitting there praying on something that does crucible to go with. That'll be like me Mike Turner: Yes. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: jumping, get ready to jump off the roof and say, Lord, don't let me get hurt. What are you what are you talking about? The Bible says, Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Don't put the Lord your God to the test. That's what he told the devil, Satan, when he was trying to tempt him and told him to jump off and the angels gonna come catch him. They love the Bible says that, but it also says that don't put the Lord your God to the test. And I feel like in Christianity, especially, we have some of the biggest prophets. But they the biggest prophets as well. Big guts. Big they're not taking care of the temple, but they want to tell you one thing. That's another reason why a lot of men don't want to go either. It's like trying to go to a personal trainer. He ain't in nobody's faith. But Mike Turner: Who ain't fit. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: he's trying to tell you what you should do. And you see him eating on some Krispy Kreme donuts and sitting there every time you come in and he got a big guts. What are you talking about, man? Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: So so I don't understand that. I could talk about that. I can talk about that one all day 'cause I see it too much. And I look at these people like, man, why is it that you gotta wait to fast and talk about you we fasting for the for this part of month and I lose month weight every time. Why you gotta do that? Well you gotta fast to lose weight. Why you can't f and why aren't you fasting more than just doing this time anyway? Because you shouldn't be as big anyway, because if you're a man of God, you should be doing more fasting in my opinion, throughout the year anyway, because there's some things only come by fasting to bring. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. I feel like it's a whole nother topic I could go off on. But like I feel like they do it. The churches are experienced. Not all of them, but they do it to benefit the church, not the body. You know, so we're gonna fast so I can get you to Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Mm, Mike Turner: a point to break you down, to give to the to the to the church building fund. So you understand. And it's like Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: that's a that's a weird thing. You know, we we pick, I say we pick a lot of sins that don't have any relevance when one of the biggest sins up in the church, as you said, to me is is gluttony. Like it yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Gluttoning gossiping in the church. That's the two too. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. But like we want to talk about everything else except for the the biggest health problems that we have in the black church. High blood pressure, high cholesterol. Let's talk about fixing those things so we could truly be physical fit, mentally free and active for the house of God. But Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I say all the time, Mike Turner: That's a whole nother song. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: no, no, everything happened twice in life, first in the inner, then in the outer. And so that's how I know and that's why I hate when a lot of those people that's my family members or church members come to my facility because they're not gonna do the work. They're gonna try to hide Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: behind the privilege of being my family. or the privilege of being in God's family and giving you all this talk. Well, I don't want to hear that. Success, I can predict success by your actions. Not what you're talking. Man, you ain't got to say nothing to me. I can tell you what you're doing. And you're not going to get it because you're thinking you go there's going to be a way out. And we too often have a way out by wanna pray about it like we talked about earlier. Or Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: going and fasting and still not doing anything. If you're going to praying and you fasting but you still eating all the sugar and doing y how you can think where you think diabetes gonna go? Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: And in your foot and you'll leave amputate amputate your leg. Mike Turner: Yeah. yeah. huh. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Yeah. 'Cause it ain't leaving you. Mike Turner: Right. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: So you might as well ate what you want to eat and not even fasted during that time. Mike Turner: Yeah. I'm with you on that one, brother. All right. we go here's the next next game. Pastor, therapist, or both? And you got like twenty seconds to explain your answer on this, all right? So I'm gonna give a a phrase and you tell me is the pastor's responsibility, therapist responsibility, or both. my marriage feels disconnected. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Is it the pastor? The therapist? Mike Turner: Passive responsibility, the territory responsibility, or both? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: To fix it or help with that in a relationship? Mike Turner: Yeah, to help. Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Well, I think that both of them should. I think the church the the church, I think the church should be in a place right now, like we talked about earlier, where I know I got 20 seconds, where we're working on things to help you in your life. So if I'm not getting Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: help for my life and the church, why am I there? Now the Mike Turner: Mm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: therapist, you're paying them specifically for that, but you should be getting guidelines and guidance from your pastor throughout the year on everything that pertains to your life. Because if you ain't making me better, why am I being here? Mike Turner: Yeah, say that. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: That's that's our feel. Mike Turner: That's that's the clip right there I'ma definitely put out. Okay, next phrase. I can't forgive my father. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Now, in a realm where I can't forgive my father, that will come with the therapist. I don't think the pastor should be the person that we got a lot of problems in our community and a lot of marriages and families are messed up because they're trying to treat a pastor like he's a therapist when they haven't been trained to handle these situations and understand what you're going through and understand the dynamics or give you an evidence-based practice to help you. They just maybe going off a little experience. Or maybe giving advice, but that's not what you need. That's that's too compacted to to deal with like that. Mike Turner: Yeah, agreed, agreed. next, I'm angry all the time. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Angry all the time, that's another one that I think that both should deal with, but the therapist is gonna be the one that'd be able to give you the tools. The pastor can give you ways to kind of be slow to speak, do all these different things like that, talking through scripture. But if you don't understand why, and that's really not the root, only thing the pastor's attacking is branches on the tree. And the branch on the tree Mike Turner: Mm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: ain't gonna cut the tree down. Cause he don't have the he just done have the knowledge. And that's what I wanna explain. therapist compared to pastors is not the same. Find you a good therapist. Maybe you can find you one that has that Christian value system that's different. But stop using your pastor and stop burning these pastors out too. He making them lie Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: to you. Making them lie like they know what they do on when they don't, when they focus it's like the same thing we talked about with me earlier. I have to be this because of a man. A lot of pastors think they gotta be able to fix your relationship to your problem because they're a pastor. You look he running, he he r not really, he's dealing with the same stuff at home too. And don't have any solutions. Because he hadn't went to school for that. He's gone to school for to be a pastor. Some of them ain't been to school for that. It's okay. Mike Turner: Thea yeah, theology. Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: And some of some of them, you know, you can get ordained in the church. Mike Turner: Mm. Yeah. All right, next. I don't know who I am anymore. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I don't know who I am anymore. Pastor would be a person I would start off with and go to therapy because our purpose is found in the Lord. I tell people all the time, imagine if I was an inventor and I invented a TV and you'd never seen a TV before. And you just walk in your house. You'll probably use that TV as a table or for a chair. You wouldn't know what it is. The only person that can show you how to get to your destiny is the person who created you, and that's come from God. So I would say first go there for guidance and that, but then go into therapy to try to help you dive into it to see what's going on or what's hindering you from seeing who you are, or maybe what you're doing that's hindering you from being who you're supposed to be. Because sometimes we can self-sabotage too. Mike Turner: Yeah. No, that's I'm learning about a lot about self sabotage and a trauma from my past that's caused me to self sabotage a lot of things, in my life. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Well really. Mike Turner: I'm working on it, brother. I'm working on it. all right, last Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Well, we are working on it. We if we are continuous work until we leave here. I think that's probably why God leave us here. If we if we handle more work until Mike Turner: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: he he teleport us out of here. Be saved Mike Turner: Yeah, yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: and go. So you get saved. You go, no. Not only is you that work supposed to be done on you, their work's supposed to be done through you throughout the rest of the world. That's why we're here. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Last one on this topic. everybody's dependent on me and I'm exhausted. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Mm, that was definitely that was definitely a a therapy main one. But also I would still say there's still pastor too. I think I don't think there's ain't nothing that we go through in life that we don't deal with through our walk in Christianity somewhere in the scripture. 'Cause when you said that it took me back to Elijah and Elijah and in the in the Bible, I think it was Elijah, he was killing all these people, he was doing all this stuff. And then Jezebel came out there. And once Jezebel came after him, he got so afraid and started running from Jezebel. You done killed all these tens of thousands of people. And you scared this one woman. But the problem was he ended up getting too tired. He was too tired. He was too hungry. And he was too lonely. When you look back at it, he wouldn't have slept for for some days, I think, right afterward. Then he ended up guiding him, taking him off into heaven. Yada yada. But in that You gotta rest and you gotta slow down, brother, because when you don't slow down, you don't think right. You don't process right. Your body can't heal right, and you get delirious. So that's the spiritual side of it. But then I can understand and I can explain to you the other sides of helping people too much and where that comes from and what color things go along with that. Because a lot of people that help people a lot or too much, they accidentally and don't recognize they're actually codependent people. They're very codependent and people don't really realize what codependency is. But a lot of times they come from being in a house with a lot of trauma, comes from a house with an alcoholic parent or abusive parent and so on and so forth. So what happens is now you end up being in a relationship where you like helping a lot of people and you, but you end up being burnt out and you don't realize why. Because what's happening is now you attract yourself. You're attracted to people who need a lot. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: a lot narcissistic people. And so you might think you're the best person in the world. Why I keep getting with this, all women are the same, all men are the same. No, they're not. It's just your picker is off from the trauma that you've gone through. And now you're unhealthy and you're going to attract unhealthy people. But we got to go through some things in therapy to help you see that and try to help you set some healthy boundaries and actually help you understand how you came that way and where it came from. Mike Turner: Yeah. Yep. I'm gonna end off with a question on that very, very topic towards you, Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Okay. Mike Turner: so be ready. so are there certain topics that you feel cause you're in both roles, ministry and therapy, or sec so are there certain subjects that you automatically think that's a pastor's role and that's a therapist role? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: For me, anything that deals with trauma, some deep psychological issues, that in my opinion is a therapist's role. Okay? But like I said, we can talk about some scenarios and explain to people in the Bible where somebody dealt with some of that same type of thing or where they were doing this and how they kind of went through it and how God helped. Joe go through losing his family, losing everything, but I can't give if I'm just a pastor, I can't grief therapy. I'm trained in doing grief therapy. You don't understand what that looks like. So I think there's a lot And I think that that's a problem with like again with pastors is not understanding that line and thinking because I'm a pastor and using, God gonna give an answer, God ain't going to give you the answers for everything because He's put certain people in place for those things. That will be like me thinking that I'm finna fly a plane today just because I have a relationship with God. That's that's asinine Mike Turner: Yeah. So like that so now I guess that question is like for from a church standpoint, like what can churches do better at so men can s actually say, I'm tired, I'm struggling, without feeling that they're failing spiritually. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: open up the platforms and allow them to actually speak and then it can start from a pastor's standpoint. Even from the pulpit. Excuse me. Even from the pulpit actually expressing how they feeling and what we're dealing with and what I had to do to deal with what I'm dealing with. When I was afraid, when I was lonely, when I was tired, when I was hurt, when I actually got cheated on and not it's this low level thing to talk about me and getting cheated on gonna make me be a punk because I got cheated on. No, that happens and how it hurt me and how I had to cry. How I had to get help. And so I think that's a big thing. Also, let men be more involved. I think a lot of issues that we have is especially with the church, most of the churches in a lot of areas are headed and ran by women, even though the pastor's the pastor. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: And it changes the whole dynamic and it causes a lot of conflict, I think, at home too. Cause I think some men, like you can listen to him, you listen to this guy, you can do this, but you can't do this when I ask, what about that? I think there's a whole this is a whole nother dynamic and topic. We Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: go into that, but yeah, there's a lot of resentment too, and women don't wanna do it. I'm not mean I mean men not women, men don't want to go because of that and don't want to be Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: a part of it. Mike Turner: Nah man, you th there's so many topics I feel like we could talk about, which is exciting at the same time, but I know we could we we we could go on a tangent. So my last question, here's the last question, 'cause somebody outside looking in, I could say, This man got it all together. Like, he's has his PhD. in in psych in clinical psychology. He's a MMA fighter, so don't mess with him. He'll physically and earthly kick your butt. he's a coach. He's a speaker. You're a professor. Like you you're in fields, you're author. You know, you have a book out like which I'm I'm we didn't get to talk about but but I do I do want to let by everybody know that you are there we go in his defense. Yep. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Y'all check it out. Make sure you're checking out a lot of issues that we talked about in here that is in that book. And you can, if you just don't want to go to therapy, I gave so many therapeutic. skills in there that you can use the same principles in the work and it's for men and women. It ain't just for for men. People see in this offense and think that it's just for men. No. Most of the women that read it and listen it's like man this was amazing. It was eye-opening. It helped me understand how I men see things, how we can better get the along together and also how it ain't really the woman's fault in those instances too that they don't know and vice versa. But that's enough of that. I ain't gonna I ain't gonna use too much time. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, the I hey, I I just ordered it, it'll be here on Monday. So I'll I'm gonna I'm gonna get through it and I would love to have you back on and talk about that and just go through the book itself because that's gonna be a convo in itself. So you're all these things I think which are servant roles. You're serving other people. Who's serving you and where do you get your relief and recharge from? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Okay, so first off, you didn't ask me that, but that came because I was very codependent. And I grew up in a family system that caused me to be codependent and connecting with the wrong type of people. So I get my relief by actually helping a lot, but also setting healthy boundaries because I gotta do things that I want to do too, and also in my house. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: with my wife on some instances of some things that she had to take care of and help me to do some things of that nature. But I enjoy giving probably from the healthy place, but also I enjoy giving from the unhealthy place too because that value system was set up different. I had to do a lot and didn't have a lot of value. So now my job is just to give back to be able to kind of help people. Like get enjoyment out of seeing people's lives change. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. But I could sit Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: I can enjoy me. Mike Turner: yeah, I could sit here. That's great, number one. Like I love it, I feel like I'm the same way. But I could sit here and say, Your cup is constantly being poured out. Even though you get enjoyment Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: of it. I enjoy seeing people flourish, especially if I had some involvement with it. But like I ain't got no involvement in you. But let me give you a flower, brother. You doing it. You you you was doing it and I love everything that you're doing and you're standing for. I love it. But you're pouring your cup out. Who's who's filling that cup? Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: So, God, for me, a lot fills my cup. I get a lot of fulfillment of my cup from my my wife. I do I get a lot of fulfillment of cup from my kids. I also spend time making sure that the number one person that I can depend on to fill my cup is me. Alright? I go out on the reservoir. I got a boat and I go out there in my little speed boat and we relax and we chill. Also, there's not a week that goes by that I don't meet with my prayer group. I got three other guys that I meet with every week the same time. We spend two hours and we talk about the stuff that we go through. We spend more time talking than we do praying, but we talk about the real stuff that we're going through. We can both come together all come together and look just really talk about how we've dealt with it, how they deal with it. And then we come back and we we pray about it. That's another thing. Then I got another friend that I that I pray with. Then I go to the gym I go to the gym, I find my time to take care of me. I say all the time, just like a plane, right? On a they say when the oxygen mask deploys, put your mask on first. Because if you don't put your mask on first, you might be trying to help somebody, they pass out and y'all both die. So I make sure to do the things that help me to sustain and be fulfilled. And I also set up systems. I set up a lot of systems to make sure that I'm able to get the things done that I need to do. Whether it be, because people don't realize like editing videos. Man, that takes a long time. Sometimes a video I Mike Turner: Mayor. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: put out takes me two hours just for a one-minute video that I put out. Right? Like, man, Mike Turner: Brother, I know. Believe me, I know. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: not including the time I had to do this the record video. And I and order some clips and stuff that I want to add with it. So the biggest person that I want people to hold accountable for filling their cup. is themselves and that's how that's how I look at it. And if you can't give it to me, guess what? I gotta get it myself. And that's when a lot of times where people in a lot of therapy or have a lot of problems in their relationships, they want their wives to make them happy. Or they kids they don't make me happy. That's not to make me happy. Because if I'm not happy on the inside, no matter what they do, they're not gonna be able to sustain that feeling for me for a long period of time. I'm gonna go back to thinking about something else I want. But if I'm happy intrinsically anyway, no matter what happens, it's gonna I'm gonna stay happy. There was a story real quick. I remember hearing it of a l two little boys. One boy was always crying and always sad and always mad. One boy was always happy. They took the little boy that was always crying and sad and put him in a room with a bunch of toys. They took the other little boy that was always happy and put him in a stable with a lot of cow maneuver in it. They went back and checked on both boys after five minutes, they were fine. About ten minutes they go by. They went and checked on the little boy that was always sad. He was in there throwing the the toys. He was mad. When something happened with one of the toys, he was mad. He couldn't get himself in a place of being happy. They didn't understand it. He got everything he needs. They went back in and looked for the little boy that was always happy and they couldn't find him. The next thing they know, they saw dirt and manure going in the air. And they said, he's down in the ground. What is he doing? They asked him what he was doing. He said, I'm looking for a pot I'm looking for a pony. I knew that if all this manure was in here, there has to be a pony. It goes to do with our mindset and the happiness that we have from within comes from the peace and the joy we have within and the mindset we have within. And that's what we got to get the help with to change the tent of that lens. Because we can always find something to be happy about, but we can also always find something to be sad about. Mike Turner: Mm. That's that's the perfect ending. I can't I can't say nothing else after that. That's the the perfect way to end this. So man, I I truly appreciate your time. I I'm gonna put a link to your your book down below and your webpage so everybody could jump on that. I appreciate the time, Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Let shake. Mike Turner: man. Thank you again and and definitely once I get through this book, I I would love to to get back on and have a conversation solely about the book. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Yes, sir. I appreciate you having me on. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. Right. Mike Turner: Right. Until next time everybody, thank ya. Dr. Marshall Thompson Jr.: Later.