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Murder In Moscow: Bryan Kohberger And The Fantasist Theory · Beyond The Horizon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome back to the program. We
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: have heard from many experts since Brian Kohlberger's arrest and
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: since these murders occurred. In this episode.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: We're going to hear from another expert.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Her name is Joni Johnston, and she's a veteran forensic psychologist.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: And she certainly had a few interesting things to add
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: about what she thinks about Brian Kohlberger and his motivations.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: So let's get into this article from The Sun, and
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: let's see what's what.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Headline, No Genius.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Idaho killer Brian Koberger is a fantasist with no common
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: sense and returned to the scene to live out his dream,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: an expert claims. This article was authored by Luke Kenton. Koberger, 28,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: arrested in late December of 2022, was charged with first-degree
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: murder and burglary in connection with the deaths of four
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: students in Moscow, Idaho, on November 13th. The victims, Kaylee Gonsalves,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Madison Mogan, Zanna Kernodle, and her boyfriend, Ethan Chapin, were.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: All stabbed to death in the early hours of the morning.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: The search for their killer lasted several weeks before Koberger
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: was apprehended in Pennsylvania on December 30th. He remains the
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: only suspect in the case, unless you ask some people
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: on Reddit or some of these other forums where people
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: are absolutely batshit insane. They have all kinds of theories.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Three people were involved. Five people were involved. Oh, it's
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: still a cartel hit. Breaking news. The cartel doesn't pull
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: off hits like this. You want to see something that
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: has the hallmarks of a cartel hit? Go up to Goshen, California,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: up in Tulare County and see the family of six
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: that was assassinated in their home. That's how the cartel rolls.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: They come in there, a few sicarios, and they use guns,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: not knives. And they don't leave anyone alive. Do you
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: really think if that was a cartel hit, the other
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: two roommates would have been left alive?
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Zero chance. That's not how the cartel rolls.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: They're coming in and they're killing every last person in
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: that house if they're looking to send a message. Police
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: say DNA evidence found on a knife sheath left behind
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: at the crime scene was a match for Kohlberger. Cell
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: phone records also show the criminology student visited the crime
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: scene 12 times since June of 2022, with the most
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: recent occurring the morning after the murders, according to an
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: arrest affidavit. A motive for the crime remains unclear. Police
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: have also not yet determined who, if any of the
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: four victims, was the intended target of the killing spree.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: However... Sources with knowledge of.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: The matter told people that Koberger had messaged one of
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: the female victims multiple times on Instagram, but never received
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: a reply. According to the source, Koberger followed Madison, Kaylee,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: and Zanna on Instagram. The identity of the recipient has
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: not yet been revealed, so we still don't know. Anything really.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: About his so called interaction. With these girls on Instagram.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Now what I've told you from the beginning. Is the
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Instagram account in question. I saw it all before it
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: was wiped. With my own eyes. So I saw that
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  Speaker 2: account itself. Was for sure following Kaylee.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: And Madison.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: But it comes out now that he was following Zanna
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  Speaker 2: as well. I didn't see that with my own eyes.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: But I did see this account. That's in question. Following
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  Speaker 2: Kaylee and Madison. So that's why I've been so adamant
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: that at the very least, there were those slight ties
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: between them. And then you add in the mad Greek
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: rumors that we've heard. And if you believe those rumors,
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: and I do, then it really starts to put things
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: in perspective about how Brian Koberger might have, remember, might
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: have originally met these girls or seen them, and then
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: how it all evolved from there. When news of the
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: murders first broke, it appeared as though the culprit had
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: pulled off the perfect crime, with police seemingly struggling to
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  Speaker 2: find leads, leaving the victims' families furious. However, since Koberger's
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: arrest last month, the evidence disclosed by investigators revealed the Ph.D.
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  Speaker 2: criminology student allegedly made a host of rookie errors that
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: led the.
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  Speaker 1: Police right to his door.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Veteran forensic psychologist Dr. Joni Johnston told the U.S. Sun
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  Speaker 2: that his purported mistakes show Koberger to be an obsessive
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  Speaker 2: fantasist rather than a criminal mastermind he may have believed
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  Speaker 2: himself to be. And when you're a narcissist and you
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  Speaker 2: have such a high opinion of yourself, it's easy to
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  Speaker 2: get caught up in your own self-worship, right? And forget
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: about the big picture and forget that other people out
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  Speaker 2: there are, breaking news, smarter than you are. There's clear
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: evidence that this was pre-planned for months or weeks ahead
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: of time, said Johnston, but this crime was certainly not
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: meticulously planned. He drove his own car to the murder scene.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: He brought his own phone with him. He left his
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  Speaker 2: nightsheet there. So that doesn't sound meticulous to me.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Me either.
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  Speaker 2: In fact, if all of this turns out to be
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  Speaker 2: true and Brian Kohlberger did make all of these mistakes,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: he'll go down as the Moscow moron from here on out. Instead,
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  Speaker 2: it seems to me like someone who is very obsessed
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  Speaker 2: and fantasizing about the act of killing and thinking about it.
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  Speaker 2: Thinking about what weapon he's going to use, and think
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  Speaker 2: about what time he's going to go in, and thinking
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  Speaker 2: about how he's going to get in, and watching the house, perhaps.
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  Speaker 2: But it appears he then had no common sense in
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  Speaker 2: terms of thinking about, okay, how am I going to
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: not get caught?
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: The basics. And it's true.
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  Speaker 2: You take a look at all of this evidence here
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  Speaker 2: and it looks like an amateur did this. That's why
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  Speaker 2: it's so confounding to some people out there who are like, well,
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  Speaker 2: he's a PhD student. He should have been a lot
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  Speaker 2: smarter than this. But we really can't account for hubris.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: We really can't account for ego. And when somebody thinks
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  Speaker 2: that they're a lot smarter than everybody else. They're going
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  Speaker 2: to act in that manner, right? I'm smarter than you.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: You'll never catch me. And this is why. I've heard
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  Speaker 2: a lot of people say, well, why wasn't he focusing
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: on forensics as a criminology student? But he was basically
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: studying the criminal mind, not forensic science, she added. I
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: don't think he was studying how to make sure a
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: blood splatter goes in the right way or anything like that.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: I think he was focusing on the psychology of it.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I think it was very obsessively pre-planned and I think
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  Speaker 2: he was obsessed with the fantasy of it all.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: This is my theory. And again, just her theory, right?
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: You can agree with it or not, but the idea
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: is to have as much information as possible and to
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: have a profile built by as many of these experts
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  Speaker 2: as possible so we can get an idea of who
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  Speaker 2: it is we're dealing with here. Because most of us
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: who are following along with the case, well, we're not
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: forensic scientists or you know criminal psychologists so we look
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: at someone like this and we're like oh this guy's
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  Speaker 2: fucking crazy but the reality is there's a whole lot
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: that goes into it there's a whole lot that is
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: underlying right here and a whole lot that needs to
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: be peeled back and it's not just oh he's crazy
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: there was motivation here there was premeditation here and obviously
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: there was some sort of obsessive component what that component
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: is or who it was we just don't know yet.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Rookie errors.
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  Speaker 2: Some of the apparent mistakes wouldn't have even been made
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: by the average true crime sleuth if they decided to
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: commit a crime. When asked whether she believed the mistakes
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: were a product of a lack of common sense or
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: whether Koberger may have been consumed by his aforementioned fantasy
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: that he overlooked the basic planning, Johnson theorized it was
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: the latter.
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  Speaker 1: Or there's that.
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  Speaker 2: Other camp out there, remember, who says that Koberger wanted
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: to get caught so he could fight this in court. Remember,
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  Speaker 2: there is a legion of people out there who ascribe
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: to that as well. For someone who was planning a murder,
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  Speaker 2: he left out a lot of essential details if getting
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: caught was not on the agenda, which I'm sure it was,
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  Speaker 2: she said. My sense is that he focused on what
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: was the fantasy. What he focused on meticulously were the
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  Speaker 2: things that fulfilled that fantasy, such as maybe the clothes
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  Speaker 2: he was going to wear or the mask he was
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  Speaker 2: going to wear or the weapon he was going to
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  Speaker 2: use or what he was going to say to the victims.
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  Speaker 2: But I don't think he focused on the thought about
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  Speaker 2: the more important details if you're talking about avoiding capture.
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  Speaker 2: So this is why there is that camp of people
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  Speaker 2: who say that maybe, just maybe, Koberger wanted to get
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  Speaker 2: caught for whatever reason. Now, I don't find that the likeliest.
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  Speaker 2: Scenario here, but I won't discount it yet because I
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  Speaker 2: don't know So I think he got caught up in
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  Speaker 2: a fantasy and focused on those things at the expense
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  Speaker 2: of stepping back and going Okay, this is a crime.
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  Speaker 2: I'm committing murder if I'm going to evade capture I
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  Speaker 2: need to do this as opposed to I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: fulfill this fantasy that I've had for so long and
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  Speaker 2: And I certainly think there is an element of all
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  Speaker 2: of that. Getting a little too carried away, finally living
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: out your fantasy, and then when you're committing the act,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: forgetting yourself. Returning to see the circus. After allegedly murdering Gonsalves, Mogan, Curnodle,
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  Speaker 2: and Chapin, Koberger returned to the crime at 1122 King
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  Speaker 2: Street the following morning, police claim, with his cell phone
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  Speaker 2: pinging in the area around 9 a.m. It's unclear what
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: reason Koberger has given to the police for being in
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  Speaker 2: the area at the time, if any. If he was smart,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: he wouldn't say a word, not one word to the police.
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  Speaker 2: At the time of the murders, Koberger was studying for
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: a doctorate in criminology at Washington State University. which is
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: roughly a 15-minute drive from Moscow. In Johnston's professional opinion,
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  Speaker 2: she believes Koberger returned to the scene of the crime
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  Speaker 2: to relive the fantasy.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I said too.
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  Speaker 2: I think that if he was back there like the
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  Speaker 2: Pings say he was, he was going to observe his work.
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  Speaker 2: Either that or he was worried that there wasn't a
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: bigger police presence or any police presence considering these murders
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: occurred so many hours previously. So he might have been
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: a little shook by that as well. She said it's
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: not typical for murderers to return to the scene of
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: the crime, but a larger percentage of serial killers do.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that's to relive their fantasy and what
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: they did. Why did Koberger do it? It could be
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  Speaker 2: as practical as, damn it, I left my knife sheath behind.
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  Speaker 2: Let me see if I can go and get it. Maybe,
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  Speaker 2: but I doubt that. Or he could have gone to
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: see if anything had been discovered yet. This is part
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  Speaker 2: of the fantasy. Let me see if anyone found them
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  Speaker 2: or if the police are there. I think he wanted
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: to watch the circus unfold firsthand only because it's so
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: hard to imagine that at 9 o'clock in the morning,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: you're going to what? Slip back in in broad daylight
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: and go and get the knife sheath? I think it's
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: more likely he wanted to see if anything had been
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: discovered at this point. And I think that's probably what
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: was going on. He wanted to see what was going
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: on at the house, if anything was cracking off yet,
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: and he wanted to admire his work. Lurking in chat rooms?
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: It's also Johnson's belief that Koberger may have been lurking
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: in chat rooms and forums discussing the case, as he
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: has been suggested and rumored online. Some followers of the
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: case believe Koberger was behind a Facebook user by the
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: name of Papa Rogers and the Reddit poster Inside Looking,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: which both appeared to have detailed knowledge of the case
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: in the weeks following the murders. I don't believe that
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: he was either of those people, just to be clear.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: I think that it was just, you know, the typical
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: trolls that you see in cases like this, inserting themselves
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: into the conversation and trying to get some serotonin pops
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: from getting likes on the internet or whatever. Papa Rogers
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: was a member of the University of Idaho Murders Case
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Discussion Facebook group until the account was removed after posting
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: some really creepy stuff. Group administrator Christine Cameron said, on
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: November 30th, Papa Rogers posted in the group, of the
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: evidence released, the murder weapon has been consistent as a
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: large fixed blade knife. This leads me to believe they
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: found the sheath. This evidence was released prior to autopsies.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: So very simply could have made a good guess, right?
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: They know it's a fixed blade knife. So how do
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: they know that? Well, either the wounds or the dude
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: left the sheath. So it's not that huge of a leap, right?
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: And automatically people thinking that this guy was Papa Roger
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: was a bit laughable to me to tell you the truth.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Police had revealed they were looking for a bladed murder weapon,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: but the discovery of the sheath wouldn't be revealed until January.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Jennifer Kofendaffer, a former FBI agent, tweeted her belief that
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Koberger was behind the account. And while I think that
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Jennifer Kofendaffer does a great job when she's breaking down
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: these cases and talking about them, I don't agree with
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: her here. I don't think that this was Brian Koberger.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Johnston's Johnston believes that Kohlberger would have been engaging with
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: posts about the murders online to stroke his ego. He
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: strikes me as somebody who would definitely want to scratch
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: that itch, but also would really need to be involved
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: in the media coverage. But under the radar, she said,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: and I think it was more lurking for Kohlberger. I
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: don't think he was interacting. I think he was lurking
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: and reading all the different posts about him and taking
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: great joy in it. I think he'd feel the need
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: to offer his opinions about things. It wouldn't surprise me
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: if he'd been on forums speculating about these murders or
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: putting forth pretty important ideas in a way that kind
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: of lets people know that he's super smart and he
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: might have some amazing criminal insights. Murderers can get some
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: delight and satisfaction from this. I think he'd need to
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: feed his ego this way, but not somebody who's going
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: to write a letter to police saying, ha.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Ha, catch me if you can. Unsealed warrant.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: On Wednesday, a Washington court unsealed a search warrant used
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: to retrieve evidence from the home and office of Brian Kohlberger.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Items retrieved from his residence included a collection of dark
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: red cuttings from a pillow with a reddish brown stain
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: and part of a mattress covered with stains. Other items
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: listed include a nitrate-type black glove, store receipts, and a
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Dickies tag, several hair strands, dust from a vacuum, a
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: fire TV stick, and a computer tower, among other items.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: The documents made no mention of items retrieved from the
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: suspect's office. There was nothing retrieved from the suspect's office,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: according to the search warrant. It's currently unclear whether anything
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: was retrieved or whether that information is currently under seal.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Kohlberger is facing four counts of first-degree murder and a
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: felony burglary charge. He has denied any involvement in the killings,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: but is yet to enter a formal plea. Kohlberger remains
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: in custody at the Latah County Jail in Idaho. He
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: is expected to appear in court on June 26th. All right, well,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: there you have it, another expert giving us their take
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: on what they see Brian Kohlberger as and what they
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: see his motivations possibly as being. If you'd like to
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: contact me, you can do that at bobbycapucci at protonmail.com.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: That's B-O-B-B-Y-C-A-P-U-C-C-I at protonmail.com. You can also find me on
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Twitter at B-O-B-B-Y underscore C-A-P-U-C-C-I. The link that I discussed
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: can be found in the description box.