Latest / PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast / A Geologist in National Defense - Dr. Stefanie Tompkins - Director of DARPA

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A Geologist in National Defense - Dr. Stefanie Tompkins - Director of DARPA · PlanetGeo: The Geology Podcast

0:03
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planet Geo, the podcast where we talk about our amazing planet, how it works, and why it matters to you.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Oh, Chris, that was a fun interview.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, I agree because that's one of the coolest parts about doing this podcast is getting to talk to the most interesting people on the planet.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: And Stephanie definitely ranks Yes.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: This was our first presidential appointee we've ever had on Planet Geo, which which is uh you know a feather, I think.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: That's this is quite nice.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: That was very fun.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: One of my takeaways was definitely the perspective that Stephanie and DARPA overall has, is their perspective on failure.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, that failure is actually a part of the process and how failure can turn into something great.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: And there are some examples that she talks about in the interview.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: I just found that even as I was getting ready for this interview, I knew that that was a part of the process, but it's just a it's something that we don't think about often enough, and I just love that perspective.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: Almost the the willingness, I don't know, being vulnerable enough to fail and then turn it into something great.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: I love I love that that sort of approach of like, hey, this is risky, we could fail.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: That's the way it goes.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: And just being very accepting of that.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, uh this is the one thing I took away.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh she this is an impressive individual.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she is very well spoken, very thoughtful, very, very dynamic.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, I I it makes sense why she's the the director of DARPA here.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: She was actually on the cover of science, which is an amazing accomplishment, especially for a PhD.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Some outcomes of her PhD thesis were actually on the cover of science.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: She didn't mention that in the interview, so we should probably highlight that here.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: But let me just give a little bit of a backstory here.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Have you ever been on the cover of science?
2:01
SPEAKER_01: No.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: Don't bring it up, Chris.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: Not yet.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: Not yet, let's put it that way.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: Just check it.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: And probably not in the anytime in the near future.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: Um so just a little bit of a backstory here.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: So Stephanie Tompkins, she graduated from Princeton University with a degree in geology, and then she went, as she spoke about it, as it was, and served as an Army intelligence officer for several years before going back to Brown University, where she ultimately got her PhD.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: And then she has had, as she talks about, this very interesting career through various um government and academic entities and private entities, and then now is the director of DARPA, which is the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which we get into and is just a super, super interesting place.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: So that also leads me to one other thing in terms of a takeaway from this interview was you asked her about this and what why a geologist is the director of DARPA.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: And her answer I thought was something it was very interesting, and it's something you and I have talked about a lot, actually, is how we just think that geoscientists are trained to think about the world in a different way.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: And she affirmed that, you know, that that was actually that was part of her answer, is how we're just trained to think about things that sets us up, geoscience-minded people, for an array of careers actually.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: And she had a couple amazing turns of phrase that I am gonna steal and use in class, you know, when I'm teaching and talking about this type of stuff.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: Because I agree, Chris, that was a major takeaway for me, was just the the wide and varied careers.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: And we've talked about this before, but I think you know, we were just talking before we hit record here that we this is a good way to sort of start interviewing a bunch of geoscientists out there who have a wide and varied career set.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, based on partially on this interview, we're gonna put together a series talking to geoscientists who at least have geoscience training and then go on to very interesting and widely varying careers.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: I think this would be a really good use of this podcast platform.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna do that.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: And this is maybe a good idea.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: We already got a couple lined up.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: We do, it's gonna be great.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be great.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: So hey Chris, let's get to the interview.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: But before we do that, if you could just hit like and subscribe and leave us a rating or review on your podcast platform, we would appreciate it.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: If you have any questions, send us an email, planetgeocast at gmail.com, and that first link in your show notes.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: If you want to learn the basics of geology, like Chris and I teach it in our college-level geology classes, you can learn all of that there.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: The first link in the show notes is Camp Geo.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: Hey, Dr.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Stephanie Tompkins, director of DARPA, coming your way.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: All right, Dr.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Tompkins, welcome to Planet Geo.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: And uh we're both very excited about this and perhaps a little bit more nervous than some of our other guests.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: So thanks for joining us here on Planet Geo.
4:48
SPEAKER_04: You know what?
4:48
SPEAKER_04: It's a real thrill for me to be here.
4:50
SPEAKER_04: I don't get to spend a lot of my time in my day job among geologists, so I'd love to be among my people.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we might have a few questions before you about that aspect for sure.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: We always start out our interviews with this one question, because Chris and I both have this experience of why we get into the geosciences.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: And Chris was this moment for me.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Chris got me into Chris was the aha moment.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: So do you have a sort of an aha experience when you sort of light bulb went off and you decided I'm gonna be a geologist?
5:19
SPEAKER_04: Well, a couple of different aspects of that answer.
5:21
SPEAKER_04: First of all, I have to say I'm a little embarrassed to call myself a geologist.
5:24
SPEAKER_04: I am trained as one, but it, you know, I don't think I was ever a true practicing geologist in the traditional sense.
5:31
SPEAKER_04: But you know, my moment was more of a a maybe not the light bulb going off, more like that um that light alarm that people use that gradually gets lighter and lighter and lighter.
5:41
SPEAKER_04: And it was more of a deciding that physics as a discipline was not for me, right?
5:48
SPEAKER_04: So I I grew up as an army brat all over the world, but a good chunk of of my childhood and where I consider my hometown is uh in Kailua, Hawaii.
5:56
SPEAKER_04: So volcanoes, geology is just sort of part of what everybody thinks about and knows.
6:02
SPEAKER_04: And when I went to college, I thought I was gonna major in physics.
6:06
SPEAKER_04: And I really wanted to see and touch more stuff than I was gonna get in a physics lab.
6:13
SPEAKER_04: And so through a lot of exploration and asking questions and things like that, I sort of realized that geology was the physics I could touch and at timescales that I really enjoyed.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: That's a really good way to phrase it.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:26
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, that was my moment.
6:28
SPEAKER_04: But it was a long moment.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell It was a long moment.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: All right.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Um Stephanie, can we talk a little bit about your PhD?
6:35
SPEAKER_00: What was your PhD specifically in?
6:39
SPEAKER_00: And then the part that I'm really interested in is did this set you up for your current career path, your current trajectory?
6:46
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, it it kind of did.
6:47
SPEAKER_04: So my PhD is in geology, but it's very specifically in planetary geology.
6:53
SPEAKER_04: And for most of my PhD thesis, I spent a lot of time using remote sensing data of the moon, mapping impact craters on the moon, and using those as probes of what was happening underground.
7:06
SPEAKER_04: It turns out that the you know the sides of craters and the little mountains in the middle of these craters actually come from deeper underground.
7:13
SPEAKER_04: And if you can identify their composition, that tells you what the subsurface crust is made of.
7:18
SPEAKER_04: So that was you know it's it's it's kind of interesting because I went to geology because I wanted to be able to touch it, and then I ended up doing so much of my research in geology that requires satellites with imagers to get the data for me.
7:30
SPEAKER_04: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: So were you were you mapping the topography or the chemistry?
7:34
SPEAKER_01: I just I I didn't quite follow it.
7:37
SPEAKER_04: So the mineralogy.
7:38
SPEAKER_04: So really the chemistry.
7:39
SPEAKER_04: So we were looking for you know, we were using spectral reflected light that gave us information about the minerals that were on the moon.
7:47
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Ross Powell Were you looking at these mass cons?
7:49
SPEAKER_04: Um no, the mascons, in fact, a lot of times the mascons are a little underground.
7:53
SPEAKER_04: These are the mass concentrations that give you strong gravity signals.
7:56
SPEAKER_04: If you look at lunar craters like Copernicus, which is on the f the near side of the moon, if you look at it, in the middle are these little mountains.
8:05
SPEAKER_04: And these they're called central peaks.
8:07
SPEAKER_04: And it turns out that when something impacts the moon to create this crater, there's a shockwave that goes down into the, you know, deep into the ground and it rebounds.
8:16
SPEAKER_04: And as it comes back up, it sucks up rock from deeper than the than the depth of the crater itself.
8:23
SPEAKER_04: And so you get this like little window into something from much, much deeper.
8:28
SPEAKER_04: And if you can map the mineralogy of the central peak, you now know something about what's going on much deeper than you can actually see on the surface.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Oh, interesting.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Yeah.
8:37
SPEAKER_04: So the impact crater equivalent of a road cut.
8:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's oh I like that.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: That's nice.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: So you you went back to physics and used your physics, I'm guessing, a lot.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of the spectral stuff is in is sort of mineral physics, yes?
8:48
SPEAKER_01: Like the spectral reflections and things like that.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: So would did that scratch the physics itch enough for you?
8:53
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Ross Powell It did a lot, although I think by that point I was just wholly into the geology world.
8:57
SPEAKER_04: Um really there's a lot of physics in the impact cratering process, but I stood on the shoulders of of geophysicists who had already figured most of that out.
9:06
SPEAKER_04: What I had was access to new data.
9:09
SPEAKER_04: Uh there was this mission that happened back many years ago called Clementine, which sent a bunch of instruments to map to use remote sensing data, and they were mapping the moon.
9:19
SPEAKER_04: And I was one of the students who happened to be in the right place at the right time when they were getting this whole new influx of data from the far side of the moon.
9:26
SPEAKER_04: So it was a lot of luck and timing.
9:28
SPEAKER_04: Let's let's say that.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I mean, but isn't that I mean that's graduate school, right?
9:32
SPEAKER_01: Like being in the I I feel I was definitely in the right place, right time kind of situation.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: The the early earth sort of interest in the early earth took off at a time when and some new rocks were discovered.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: And so to kind of come back to the second part of Chris's question, I'm really interested in this because I think, well, a little bit of a backstory.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: A doctor I know recommended you.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: I think he had worked at DARPA and knew you, uh, had worked as a medical doctor at DARPA and recommended you and sort of said, Well, there's a geologist as the head of DARPA, Dr.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Stephanie Tompkins.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, What?
9:59
SPEAKER_01: Really?
10:00
SPEAKER_01: A geologist is the head of DARPA?
10:01
SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Can we possibly talk to her?
10:04
SPEAKER_01: And uh and so I guess uh the question is did that planetary science PhD, how did it set you up for your eventual career, or or was it kind of a deviation?
10:13
SPEAKER_01: And if it did set you up, like how how did it?
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Because Chris and I deal with students all the time.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: They might look at you and say, Hey, I want to be that.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: How do I go be that?
10:21
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know, can you talk us through that personal experience?
10:24
SPEAKER_04: So the correct answer is yes, it did.
10:26
SPEAKER_04: And it in a couple of ways.
10:28
SPEAKER_04: So most directly, it taught me a lot about remote sensing.
10:33
SPEAKER_04: And there were a number of people who said, Hey, if it turns out you don't want a career in NASA, which I certainly hadn't, you know, I was very interested in, that you could take all of those remote sensing skills and instead of pointing them at the moon, you could point them at the earth.
10:47
SPEAKER_04: And there's a lot of really interesting work in the earth observation and particularly in the defense world where your skill set could be in come in handy.
10:56
SPEAKER_04: And I was maybe more open to that than most because I had served in the Army before graduate school.
11:01
SPEAKER_04: So the idea of national security and defense wasn't a complete new thing to me.
11:07
SPEAKER_04: But absolutely the skill sets that I learned, I would say many, many things that I learned, not just my thesis, but so many aspects of geology were foundational to my ability to do my job today.
11:19
SPEAKER_04: And I'm happy to talk more about that because I'm really passionate about the fact that geology sets you up for amazing opportunities in many spaces.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think could could you I guess expound on that?
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Because we've I don't know, I feel the same way that geology is this, and especially in this new modern era of the entire energy budget of humanity is going through this transition, which I'm sure we'll talk about.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know, Chris and I were just talking a couple nights ago about how it's a good time to be a geologist, a particularly good time to be a geologist these days.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm curious about your thoughts uh on that aspect.
11:52
SPEAKER_04: Sure.
11:52
SPEAKER_04: You know, so much of what we think of what is exciting people today in science and technology is multidisciplinary, right?
11:59
SPEAKER_04: We spend a lot of time trying to get people out of their silos.
12:03
SPEAKER_04: You're not just a chemist, you're not just a physicist, but maybe the problem needs to be solved at the boundaries between those different disciplines.
12:10
SPEAKER_04: And geology is just inherently multidisciplinary.
12:13
SPEAKER_04: You know, you have to know some physics, you have to know some chemistry, you may need some biology, you certainly need some math, and you need a lot of common sense.
12:21
SPEAKER_04: And you know, maybe this kind of forensic way of thinking of problem solving, all of those things turn out to be super valuable in a whole variety of careers, even if you're never looking at actual rocks.
12:33
SPEAKER_04: And so I feel like that thought process is most important.
12:37
SPEAKER_04: But there's also different aspects of geology.
12:39
SPEAKER_04: I think I heard you on a previous podcast talking about tool sets.
12:43
SPEAKER_04: It was when you were interviewing one of the scientists out at uh Yellowstone, and he was saying that it's not enough just to like being in the field.
12:50
SPEAKER_04: You need these different sets, right?
12:52
SPEAKER_04: So in graduate school, I learned a lot about petrology and about ternary diagrams, and I work a lot now with material scientists.
12:59
SPEAKER_04: And it turns out that petrology and material science, you know, it's kind of really foundationally very similar, and we talk the same language.
13:08
SPEAKER_04: Um I work a lot with people who do complex uh optimization sort of mathematical problems, and my geophysical inverse theory class has really come in handy in helping me, not like I couldn't do what they do, but I can grasp what they're doing and the importance and the relevance of it.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Okay.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: So you can communicate with the same sort of language and sort of mental uh mental hierarchy or something along those lines.
13:32
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Powell Exactly.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's really interesting.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: I like that the phrase geology geology is inherently multidisciplinary.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: That's nice.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: I I'm gonna use that.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna steal that one and use it in class for sure.
13:43
SPEAKER_04: Oh, absolutely.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: So, Stephanie, I want to transition a little bit and talk a little bit about DARPA specifically.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: It has this huge reputation and actual legacy and research.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, you had a role in the mRNA vaccine.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, you invested early on in the internet.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's crazy.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: Uh I I didn't know this, by the way, until I started preparing for this interview.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: What is the mission of DARPA today?
14:09
SPEAKER_00: And can you talk a little bit about that?
14:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I love talking about DARPA.
14:12
SPEAKER_04: So you'll probably have to stop me uh when I gone on, I've gone on too much.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: But I have so many questions about DARPA.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: We can't we will definitely run over time if we start too far down this train.
14:22
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
14:23
SPEAKER_04: Well, I'll I'll give you the high-level version first.
14:25
SPEAKER_04: DARPA was started 65 years ago, and it was directly in response to the launch of the Sputnik satellite by what was then the Soviet Union.
14:35
SPEAKER_04: And that event was this incredible kind of technological surprise for the nation.
14:40
SPEAKER_04: It was like, holy cow, who knew that they could do that?
14:43
SPEAKER_04: And we didn't like being surprised.
14:45
SPEAKER_04: And so a whole bunch of stuff happened in the government moves very quickly when they're put into a state of shock.
14:50
SPEAKER_04: And they created some organizations.
14:53
SPEAKER_04: One of them actually became NASA and one of them was called ARPA, the Advanced Research Projects Agency.
14:59
SPEAKER_04: And over the years, we have either been sort of ARPA or DARPA.
15:02
SPEAKER_04: We have been DARPA for a long time now.
15:04
SPEAKER_04: But the mission of DARPA or ARPA back then was to prevent that type of technological surprise from happening again.
15:12
SPEAKER_04: Now, if you think about it, it's hard to just prevent surprise.
15:15
SPEAKER_04: That would mean that you had a crystal ball.
15:17
SPEAKER_04: But what the people have sort of historically and evolved to interpreting that to be is to be the ones who are creating it.
15:24
SPEAKER_04: Because if you're creating the surprise and you're always out there 10, 20 years in advance in terms of what's possible, then it's much less likely that someone else is going to do something, at least technologically, that will shock you.
15:36
SPEAKER_04: And so because of that, it's been this organization that's worked somewhat independently, really focusing on disruptive and breakthrough innovations that if we are successful, change everything.
15:49
SPEAKER_04: But if we fail, the rest of the research ecosystem can go can march forward on whatever it was they were already doing.
15:57
SPEAKER_04: So we're we're kind of these outsiders with a specific role of potentially disrupting for the better.
16:02
SPEAKER_04: And obviously a strong national security focus.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: So Stephanie, two things jumped to my mind as I listened to you answer that question.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: One is is it more of a defensive kind of thing?
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Like I think of cybersecurity.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Is that the kind of thing that you talk about in terms of preventing surprises?
16:19
SPEAKER_00: And the other thing that I think of is offensive.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: Like are you involved also in the development of military technology and things like that?
16:26
unknown: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
16:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we are definitely involved in both.
16:29
SPEAKER_04: So preventing surprise has a heavy defense element onto it, but one of the things you start to find out is that often those are two sides of the same coin.
16:38
SPEAKER_04: You know, if you are defending something, you need a much better understanding of what you're defending against.
16:42
SPEAKER_04: If people are working on new offensive capabilities, then you better be thinking about how you would defend against those same things.
16:49
SPEAKER_04: And that's a it's sort of complicated, right?
16:52
SPEAKER_04: And uh you know, I mean I'll say this up front.
16:54
SPEAKER_04: It is a field, the defense community, in which many of us think very hard about the ethical, you know, legal, societal implications of what we're creating, and we we concentrate on that heavily at DARPA.
17:05
SPEAKER_04: You know, we don't wash our hands and say we build it, someone else figures out how to use it.
17:09
SPEAKER_04: We think hard about the ethics of it and try to build that into the thought process that we go through.
17:15
SPEAKER_04: But yes, fundamentally, all kinds of defense technologies.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: It's really interesting because you know, in this read-like Chris, I knew DARPA from the research sort of legacy side, which I have a bunch of questions about, of like you know, DARPA being this go fast and break things kind of, you know, really transformative things, high failure rate, like go fast, go fast, go fast.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: I have a bunch of questions about that.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: But in researching this DARPA thing, you know, you see all sorts of quotes from things like, oh, it's the agency that shaped the modern world, to like, you know, weapons of future war agency and all these sort of different takes on DARPA, I guess.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: And so it's interesting to hear you sort of from the insider's view give that uh perspective to it.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: I guess how does being a geologist, being your geology background, do you frame that conversation in your that internal conversation differently than your colleagues, I suppose?
18:06
SPEAKER_01: That's what kind of I think my question is.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you do you experience it differently?
18:10
SPEAKER_01: Or I guess, and maybe we have to go back a little bit to ask about your I think you worked in as an Army intelligence officer between graduate school and undergrad, is that right?
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: So that you know, that's a different that's that's a heck of a gap year sort of thing.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: Some people take gap years uh between undergrad and graduate school.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: That's a different take on it.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: And and maybe, I don't know, do you have a different personal experience than other people at DARPA in this regard?
18:33
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Powell Maybe.
18:34
SPEAKER_04: Obviously, I don't necessarily know what their experiences are.
18:37
SPEAKER_04: So, first of all, the gap year, the gap four years was a natural consequence of not being able to afford a college.
18:43
SPEAKER_04: Um I went to I went to undergrad on an RTC scholarship and had this really easy option of not having to attend career fairs or do anything because I knew I was already committed to a job.
18:56
SPEAKER_04: While I was in my Officer Basic course at Fort Huachuca, it occurred to me that maybe I should go ahead and take the GREs just in case.
19:03
SPEAKER_04: You know, drove up to University of Arizona in Tucson and was taking them and wandered into the geology building because I had some time off and decided that I might really want to come back and do this someday.
19:14
SPEAKER_04: But that's the you know, that's sort of to explain that gap time period.
19:17
SPEAKER_04: And that was back in the days when you had to write to colleges.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: So that was four years, and then as soon as you finished your four years, you went back to graduate school.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:24
SPEAKER_04: I went to graduate school.
19:25
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
19:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
19:26
SPEAKER_04: In a time, again, for your listeners where you had to write a letter and ask for a brochure.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: And also, Stephanie, taking the GRE.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you probably took the geology-specific GRE, didn't you?
19:39
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Ross Powell You know, I don't remember if I did or not.
19:42
SPEAKER_04: I I suspect I might have done both, right?
19:45
SPEAKER_04: I feel like there was a pretty generalized test as well.
19:48
SPEAKER_04: But to your question about whether or not or not I think about my job differently, I think that geology certainly lets you think in terms of long time scales.
19:58
SPEAKER_04: It helps me.
19:59
SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm a human and I'm vulnerable, my brain does the same thing, you know, under pressure.
20:03
SPEAKER_04: You you sort of react to maybe in ways that aren't super helpful to stress and to pressure and things like that.
20:10
SPEAKER_04: I have practice maybe from the geology world of taking a step back and looking at sort of billions of years and trying to, you know, I sometimes that does help.
20:21
SPEAKER_04: Um I think the whole multidisciplinary, the earth system science, the whole idea of taking that back and thinking about systems as systems has often been something that's natural for me.
20:31
SPEAKER_04: I mean, not me biologically or it in my DNA, but because it was trained into me.
20:36
SPEAKER_04: But whether that is significantly different than a lot of my colleagues who simply got here by other paths, I'm not sure that I could say.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell That's an interesting point because uh we do just get exposed to million-year, billion-year time scales all the time.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, we kind of I think we sort of take it for granted sitting on a rock thinking, wow, this is a 350 million-year-old, you know, sediment.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: We sort of take that that um longevity for granted in many ways.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: But I could see how this would definitely change your perspective on questions like you were speaking about as far as DARPA goes.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Chris, I think I interrupted you there.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: No.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: No, that's okay.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: I was just gonna move on to because I, Stephanie, I've heard you talk about, particularly in reference to your job at DARPA, about failure a few times.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: And you have this refreshing take on failure.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: Can you just give us an example of a sort of failure or flop that happened that turned out to be a good flop?
21:28
SPEAKER_04: Ah, absolutely.
21:30
SPEAKER_04: Uh you actually mentioned early on you you mentioned our role in mRNA vaccines.
21:35
SPEAKER_04: So let me tell you a story about that.
21:37
SPEAKER_04: Once upon a time, I g I don't know, maybe 15, 16 years ago, DARPA was making a run at creating artificial blood for the battlefield.
21:46
SPEAKER_04: You know, so you imagine in battlefield conditions, the idea of sitting people down and drawing blood so that you can you know transfer it to somebody else, not the most practical thing.
21:55
SPEAKER_04: Artificial blood would be a really great thing.
21:57
SPEAKER_04: We failed at that.
21:58
SPEAKER_04: Not because we weren't able to make artificial Artificial blood, but it turns out that what we were able to demonstrate was too expensive to be practical.
22:05
SPEAKER_04: All right, so we failed.
22:06
SPEAKER_04: Program was done.
22:07
SPEAKER_04: DARPIT focuses heavily on a rotation model.
22:09
SPEAKER_04: Our people are typically rotating in and out on about a four to five year cycle.
22:14
SPEAKER_04: So a new program manager came in and he took over the remnants of that program.
22:18
SPEAKER_04: And in the process of sort of closing it out, he started asking different questions.
22:23
SPEAKER_04: And one of the questions he asked was: if we have expensive artificial blood, is there anything you could do with that blood that would make it worth the cost?
22:32
SPEAKER_04: Could you, for example, cure people with it or could you prevent disease?
22:38
SPEAKER_04: And he held workshops and talked to different people.
22:41
SPEAKER_04: And the exact sequence of events I can't tell you because I wasn't there.
22:45
SPEAKER_04: But at least at one of those workshops, there was a little company with maybe a dozen people at the time.
22:49
SPEAKER_04: It was called Moderna.
22:51
SPEAKER_04: You might have heard of them.
22:53
SPEAKER_04: They thought a lot about this idea of transforming how you vaccinate people, how you turn your body and your own blood into a factory to create your immunity.
23:05
SPEAKER_04: And that led to the program that then really made these massive investments in mRNA and DNA-related vaccines.
23:12
SPEAKER_04: So that's the the story did come out of a failure.
23:14
SPEAKER_04: And by the way, we're making a second, another run at artificial blood.
23:18
SPEAKER_04: So we're going to try again.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, cool.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: That is such a cool story.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: I'd never heard that artificial blood side before.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I only heard the quote, you know, DARPA funded Moderna early on, but that's a great backstory to it.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: So I guess that brings up a really quick question.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: What is the distribution of funding between sort of like startup companies, established entities, government, you know, research labs or universities?
23:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't actually know that.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: What's the do you fund all, any comers, any takers, basically?
23:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we fund we fund all of the above.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
23:50
SPEAKER_04: I don't think I could give you an accurate sense of the distribution, and it will really vary year by year.
23:55
SPEAKER_04: I know that I think last year maybe 18 or 19 percent was universities, like university-led projects, but definitely large companies.
24:05
SPEAKER_04: We actually have a very large percentage of small companies that we fund higher than I think a lot of other government organizations, because they tend to be real creative and a little more risk tolerant.
24:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, real risky, I'm sure, too.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: Really cool.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's a good transition because I have a bunch of questions about like the funding structure because I live in the maybe the more traditional funding structure at university, which you're familiar with, I'm sure, from your experience at School of Minds, but NSF and things like that.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: Things are slow and uh it just research takes a long time in in many ways.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: And so DARPA has this huge, like bigger than real, you know, reputation for being really fast and and and fast moving.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think you you've sort of described academia as having a role in the national security infrastructure, I guess, suppose, an ecosystem.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: And how how do you view that fitting?
24:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're you're funding some universities which are, I think we we tend to think slow, maybe we move slower.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: We think big maybe, but move slowly at many times, in part because we have PhD students and master's students and undergrads, right?
25:07
SPEAKER_01: We're we're kind of doing this training and research at the same time.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: So how do you view that?
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh, or or why does academia have a role?
25:13
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Powell So let's just look at the ecosystem in general, right?
25:16
SPEAKER_04: And uh this can be national security or it could be really anything.
25:19
SPEAKER_04: If you think about this research and development or science and technology ecosystem, you have got universities, you have industry and you know, and nonprofit research organizations, and you have government labs, you have all of these organizations working together, loosely connected, not in some harmonious system, but they're all sort of working to gradually advance the state of the art in science and technology.
25:44
SPEAKER_04: And then within that role, DARPA has this disruption that we're kind of there on the side.
25:48
SPEAKER_04: We swoop in and we accelerate something because it looks exciting.
25:51
SPEAKER_04: The universities often play a role in helping to make really dramatic advances in that more basic early stage research.
25:59
SPEAKER_04: It might be, for example, that they're making the big discovery, which then after they're done, we start a new program that would work with more industry players to help mature it much more quickly.
26:10
SPEAKER_04: And we have so much flexibility in our structure of how we start and stop programs that we're able to sort of see up a bunch of paths and use money and creative processes to like accelerate that technology from step to step much more quickly.
26:26
SPEAKER_04: I will say that so the universities are a really fundamental part of the ST ecosystem.
26:32
SPEAKER_04: And within DARPA, we love them, but it is probably a small subset of the R.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: Did you say S ⁇ T ecosystem there?
26:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sorry, science and technology.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay, there we go.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you.
26:42
SPEAKER_04: It is a very small percentage of faculty members that probably love working with DARPA for the exact reasons you said.
26:49
SPEAKER_03: Right.
26:49
SPEAKER_04: And there is some types of research that are fundamentally mismatched to our model.
26:54
SPEAKER_04: You know, some things really are gonna take 20 years and you need to do the entire thing before you figure it out.
27:00
SPEAKER_04: Our cycles of three to five years, real quick, fail fast, it isn't gonna work for everything, and it's certainly not gonna work for everyone.
27:08
SPEAKER_04: So when I talk to universities, I do spend a lot of time trying to help them look at themselves and say, am I that person that wants to get on the roller coaster, or do I need to be left alone and help them figure out whether DARPA is really a good fit for them?
27:22
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell That's interesting because I just actually just last week, sorry, Chris, just one real quick story.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: We I had a um an alumni who works for a company and approached me about maybe being involved in a DARPA proposal for the critical minerals thing, which we'd love to talk more about.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: But and I it was a little bit intimidating, I must admit, from my perspective, it's like wow, these are these are timelines, these are strict timelines.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm not used to dealing with that those kind of uh those kind of timelines and turnarounds, even though it's very exciting the opportunity.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: It didn't end up going forward, so we don't have a proposal you know submitted to you guys.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: But uh i that's an interesting uh uh perspective.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Chris.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell No, that's okay.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: Um Stephanie, does DARPA then essentially because it's all about speed, right?
27:59
SPEAKER_00: I assume that's why your model is you have three to five years to work here.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's all let's get things done fast.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: Is that is that a good one?
28:06
SPEAKER_04: It is very much so.
28:07
SPEAKER_04: Very much about speed.
28:08
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell So how do you take the chains off?
28:11
SPEAKER_00: How do what like how do you do this?
28:13
SPEAKER_00: You know like how does that happen?
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: And maybe do you have an example of restraint.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Do you have like a geoscience example you could kind of walk us through the lifetime of or time frames of, maybe, or or something along those lines?
28:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, let me let me think about it.
28:26
SPEAKER_04: But let me let me start with the framework.
28:29
SPEAKER_04: So everything in the DARPA business process, the organization has a lot of structures built into it that naturally fight human nature, where human nature is usually geared to slow down and to get comfortable.
28:45
SPEAKER_04: One of the things I often say is you come to DARPA and right around the time you get really comfortable with how we do things, which is maybe three or four years in, we kick you out.
28:57
SPEAKER_04: And knowing that the clock is ticking, right?
28:59
SPEAKER_04: That you know we said, come to DARPA, we're gonna give you money, freedom, flexibility, all the contacts and support you need to change the world, but we're only gonna let you have four years.
29:11
SPEAKER_04: That drives people to just behave differently, like right?
29:16
SPEAKER_04: So you have to know there's an end.
29:18
SPEAKER_04: And by no means would that work everywhere, and it shouldn't.
29:21
SPEAKER_04: You only need to do it in a small number of organizations, because you need the rest of that ecosystem to be working at a steadier pace.
29:27
SPEAKER_04: But that is sort of how we structure it.
29:30
SPEAKER_04: So we are constantly probing our program managers, you know, as they're creating new programs to really focus on what's the miracle that they need to demonstrate in order to move to the next step.
29:41
SPEAKER_04: And rather than trying to construct a 10-year or a 20-year program the way you might in another organization, like prove that one thing out or fail.
29:50
SPEAKER_04: And then everything in our structure is geared around being able to move quickly so that if you're successful, we can put more money on it really quickly and advance.
29:58
SPEAKER_04: Or if you failed, you know what, that's fine, because you've got more ideas and let's try something new.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: Does that help?
30:05
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Can I ask, yeah, that does.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: Where did that where did this model come from?
30:09
SPEAKER_00: And was this DARPA's like right when it started?
30:12
SPEAKER_00: Is this the idea?
30:12
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Ross Powell You know, probably not quite this way.
30:15
SPEAKER_04: A lot of things have evolved over time, but it is one that I think elements of it were there from the very beginning.
30:21
SPEAKER_04: But the processes to uh help make it happen, like the idea of these short tenures have evolved over the last several decades where it wasn't just suggested, but it became sort of codified in how we do business.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: Wow, cool.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: That's really interesting.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: That sounds so exciting.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell So I think Stephanie, I have a question for you.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: I am very interested in the special forces and your develop what you do in developing technology for them.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: Do you have a division of DARPA that's devoted to military technology and then another division that's devoted to these kind of enabling technologies?
30:58
SPEAKER_00: Like how is how's that sound?
30:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
31:00
SPEAKER_04: So I understand your question.
31:01
SPEAKER_04: So the way DARPA is organized, we have six technical offices.
31:06
SPEAKER_04: And by the way, you know, that's those are not fixed in time, those can be reorganized or anything like that, but we have six technical offices, and then we have a whole support team.
31:14
SPEAKER_04: Remember I said that you know DARPA people, we kick them out.
31:17
SPEAKER_04: Our support people stay long term.
31:19
SPEAKER_04: You know, so all the people that do IT and security and human resources and they are stable and they provide our corporate memory.
31:26
SPEAKER_04: Now, within the technical parts of DARPA, we have some offices that lean much more heavily towards basic research, which means a lot more university interaction, and by definition, a lot more of that enabling technology that you're asking about.
31:42
SPEAKER_04: And that could be anything from a new type of a microscope, which isn't the thing that the military will use directly, but it could accelerate science in a whole new way to a new radio or a new microchip or a new airplane or a new satellite, right?
31:58
SPEAKER_04: So there's the enabling technologies, and then we have other offices that lean much more to those military systems, you know, the aircraft or the new ship or the new communications network.
32:09
SPEAKER_04: But we try not to have like walls between them.
32:13
SPEAKER_04: The idea is the program manager is a DARPA program manager, and if they've got an idea that could change the world, it shouldn't matter where they sit as to what they can do.
32:22
SPEAKER_04: So they are very flexible, but they are homeroomed.
32:25
SPEAKER_04: I sort of think of these offices as homerooms where they get lots of support and lots of help, but they can work in any office that they want to.
32:32
SPEAKER_04: But fundamentally, when I look at DARPA accomplishments over history, I do sort of divide them up between the things that are more enabling, like the ARPANET, which became the Internet, or material science, or the more clear military technologies like stealth aircraft or miniaturized GPS receivers.
32:51
SPEAKER_04: And the idea is that DARPA is working on all of those, but we're not we don't try to box people into one category or another.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay, maybe let's get into the geology part of this, because I'll admit I sent a relatively searching email and I was not expecting a response when I sent an email and said, Oh, Dr.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: Tompkins, would you be like to come on our podcast?
33:12
SPEAKER_01: So I guess you seem like a very thoughtful person.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Why did you agree to come on a geology podcast as the head of DARPA?
33:19
SPEAKER_01: Apart from you just being a geologist in, you know, by training.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: What about geology is interesting.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: And why is a geologist ahead of DARPA, frankly?
33:27
SPEAKER_01: I guess I guess I guess that's part of the question.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I Chris and I were big proponents of geoscience, but that doesn't mean we're right.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: So I I would like to hear your perspective on that.
33:36
unknown: Yeah.
33:37
SPEAKER_04: Well, so the idea of why a geologist is ahead of DARPA is probably more of a coincidence.
33:43
SPEAKER_04: I am 99% sure that the people who were doing the search for the DARPA director were not looking for a geologist.
33:49
SPEAKER_04: Um they were just looking with a with the right mixture of experience.
33:53
SPEAKER_04: And you know, all of the time and the things that I've done, you know, I think helped to prepare me to be able to do this job hopefully reasonably well.
34:01
SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm super passionate about DARPA and I want it to be successful.
34:04
SPEAKER_04: Uh but why I came on, it's tied to a little bit of what we talked about before, which is how passionate I am that geology, the training of geology prepares you for much more than just being a geologist.
34:17
SPEAKER_04: And I feel like so much of the geological background has helped me at different stages in my career to do non-geological things that I would love to help get that message out to lots of people that one, if you can get an amazing job as a geologist, you should because it's awesome.
34:33
SPEAKER_04: But if you can't, or if you choose to do something else, the geology is still an amazing background.
34:39
SPEAKER_04: And I often push a lot of people who don't quite know what they want.
34:42
SPEAKER_04: I'll say, well, you know what?
34:43
SPEAKER_04: If you major in geology, you could do anything.
34:46
SPEAKER_04: So that's a good one.
34:47
SPEAKER_04: That's part of that message.
34:48
SPEAKER_04: But let's be fair, too.
34:49
SPEAKER_04: You know, I mean human.
34:50
SPEAKER_04: And the the shallower, simple answer, which is I don't get to talk to geologists a lot.
34:54
SPEAKER_04: And um having a chance to do that is kind of a treat was was part of my thinking as well.
34:59
SPEAKER_04: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's good too.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: I guess maybe can I, Chris, if you allow me, I'll ask the question, a different, slightly different question, because I think what I heard was a little bit like geoscientists can have a lot of careers like that.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: I guess another question that comes to mind is does geology have a role in national defense?
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe not geology like their traditional hammering on rocks, but geoscience maybe like the broader thing, pointing your instruments towards Earth.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: Is there a role for geoscience in national defense as well as geoscientists, I guess?
35:26
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Powell Certainly.
35:28
SPEAKER_04: There is at every level.
35:29
SPEAKER_04: If you think about it from the seafloor, the ocean, the earth and the subsurface, up through the atmosphere.
35:36
SPEAKER_04: I mean, at every level, whether you're thinking I mean the Navy is probably a great example when you think about this because they have to understand oceanography pretty well.
35:45
SPEAKER_04: Actually, they pay a lot of attention to the stars, too.
35:47
SPEAKER_04: We still do a lot of star-based navigation in the in the DoD.
35:51
SPEAKER_04: There's a lot of underground aspects of national security, you know, things that underground facilities, tunnels, detecting tunnels, stuff like that, where you have a much more traditional set of geologists.
36:02
SPEAKER_04: You might remember, um I don't know, you might not be old enough, but you know, back in the day there were uh videos with Osama bin Laden would be you know somewhere remote, right?
36:12
SPEAKER_04: And it was geologists who were figuring out where he was based on the rocks that were surrounding him.
36:17
SPEAKER_04: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
36:17
SPEAKER_04: Oh, is that right?
36:18
SPEAKER_04: I did not know that.
36:19
SPEAKER_04: That's interesting.
36:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, lots of really cool.
36:21
SPEAKER_04: It's so it's not usually like like front and center, the way aerospace engineering might be, but it is very much part of the fabric of national security at many, many different levels.
36:32
SPEAKER_04: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so a little bit of backstory to this question, Stephanie.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh Chris and I are terrible at naming episodes, and we almost always fight about naming episodes.
36:45
SPEAKER_01: And I guess what would you name this episode?
36:48
SPEAKER_01: This is the first time we've ever asked anybody this, but I think it would maybe say a lot about your perspective on how you sort of view geoscience and national security.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a name that comes to mind for a podcast episode, a geology podcast that you're on, or not?
37:04
SPEAKER_04: Well, let's start by saying that I am probably very much like you.
37:08
SPEAKER_04: I'm terrible at naming things.
37:09
SPEAKER_04: When I was a DARPA program manager, my programs always had they never had cute acronyms.
37:14
SPEAKER_04: They were super boring.
37:16
SPEAKER_04: Um and the best thing about my job is I have this team of people who I can say, you know, some long boring thing to describe it, and they will come back with a really cute name.
37:24
SPEAKER_04: But you know, I think I would love for it to be something that reflects this idea of a geologist in non-geology territory, you know, like a geologist in strange lands or something.
37:34
SPEAKER_04: This idea of the ability to take what you have learned and put it to good in many other uh different disciplines.
37:40
SPEAKER_04: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I like that.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: I like well, I can tell you you're not worse than Chris at naming.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I come up with great names all the time.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: And Chris comes up with some real terrible ones.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: They're the worst.
37:52
SPEAKER_04: All right, Chris, you and me, we'll we'll uh uh we'll have coffee together, we'll celebrate our geeky, non-exciting naming uh conventions.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: That's interesting you don't have I feel like uh Stephanie, the seismologists are the only ones who come up with good acronyms.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: Like I can't come up with an acronym to save my life, but every seismologist I know has like these amazing little acronyms that they're really good at.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, it's something about being a seismologist.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: So well, I'm actually shocked by your answer, Stephanie, because the DOD, I mean, you're that's what you live on, are acronyms.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, DARPA, for instance.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's that's crazy.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Um All right, Stephanie.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: So you're on a geology podcast.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: I feel like we need to ask you something geologically.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: So here's my go at this.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: What is the most interesting geologic place that you've ever been and why?
38:39
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
38:40
SPEAKER_04: Let me think.
38:40
SPEAKER_04: There's probably more than one.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: Well you can talk about more than one.
38:45
SPEAKER_04: Let's pick the one that might be the most unusual, and it was certainly interesting.
38:49
SPEAKER_04: When I was a second lieutenant in the army serving in Korea, very close and and basically right along the demilitarized zone.
38:58
SPEAKER_04: And I don't know if you know this, but the North Koreans over time have dug a lot of tunnels under the DMZ, you know, potential invasion routes.
39:08
SPEAKER_04: And several of them are known.
39:09
SPEAKER_04: And there was a uh, I think it was called the Tunnel Neutralization Team.
39:13
SPEAKER_04: Basically, there was a team of allies, U.S.
39:16
SPEAKER_04: and allies, part of whose job was to help find and map and sort of work with these tunnels in order to prevent somebody from invading through them.
39:24
SPEAKER_04: And my boss at the time happened to have been on that team in the past, so he took a bunch of us on a tour.
39:29
SPEAKER_04: So I got to walk through one of these tunnels.
39:32
SPEAKER_04: And just to tell you how sort of mediocre a geologist I am, you know, he held up the first rock and he says, okay, a geologist, because I was the only one who could answer to that and said, What is this?
39:42
SPEAKER_04: And I said, It looks like rubble, sir.
39:47
SPEAKER_04: It was a lot of granite, a little bit of gneiss, just so you know.
39:50
SPEAKER_04: But I was gonna ask, what was the rock?
39:53
SPEAKER_00: They dug it.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: They dug those tunnels through granite and gneiss.
39:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
39:58
SPEAKER_04: Uh holy cow.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: That's not an easy job.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
40:01
SPEAKER_04: Right.
40:02
SPEAKER_04: And it's and it's across the full peninsula, so it will vary.
40:04
SPEAKER_04: But the the opportunity to walk through those tunnels was lots of fun.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: That's that's amazing.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: So it brings up another question.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: Do you get called out like that a lot at being like the one geologist somewhere and you're you get called out for identify this rock, right?
40:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, the the one geologist on the team, can you tell me what this rock is?
40:19
SPEAKER_01: Or do people bring you know rocks they found in their backyard to identify occasionally?
40:24
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Powell Not anymore.
40:25
SPEAKER_04: They used to, but then we reached the stage after graduate school when they would bring me a rock and I would say, well, after you've taken it to a lab and taken a spectrum of it, I will identify it from the spectrum.
40:35
SPEAKER_03: Nice.
40:36
SPEAKER_03: That's a good thing.
40:37
SPEAKER_04: I was-I was okay.
40:38
SPEAKER_04: I you know, I did my field work and I learned a lot, but it I never got to practice it enough.
40:41
SPEAKER_04: So I am not super good with hand samples beyond the like the real obvious ones that I did in my like Geology 101.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, uh in unless I mean I can't identify sediments to save my life.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: I don't haven't thought about sediments in a long time, so it's it's what you're used to and what you look at a lot.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: So I have uh another sort of funding question, if you will.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: You ran technology transfer at the Colorado School of Mines, is that right?
41:05
SPEAKER_01: You were the vice president of technology transfer?
41:07
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Powell Yeah, research and technology transfer.
41:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay, research and technology transfer.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: I think most people, I don't think, are aware of these offices at universities.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: Can you maybe describe what they what the point of that office is, what you did and what it what your experience was like?
41:23
SPEAKER_01: Because I've actually never interacted with this office at Penn State.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: Can you put that into context for us?
41:29
SPEAKER_01: What that's absolutely.
41:30
SPEAKER_04: You know, there's both sort of a philosophical view of that, kind of the big vision of what it means, and then there is the very practical day-to-day.
41:37
SPEAKER_04: So if you really I'm gonna start philosophically, because I'm a big believer in public research universities, and I just, you know, what they have done for the nation is amazing and what they continue to do.
41:46
SPEAKER_04: But if you think about it, you know, at a university, one, you are creating knowledge because knowledge is not static.
41:53
SPEAKER_04: So the research is part of what you're doing to create the knowledge.
41:56
SPEAKER_04: And then you have a mission to get that knowledge out, the fruits of that knowledge out to the world.
42:02
SPEAKER_04: And one way you do that, the really obvious way is you do that through students, right?
42:06
SPEAKER_04: But also you do that by getting your technology into the hands of companies or usually companies, or some organization that can put it to use.
42:17
SPEAKER_04: So sometimes at the very practical sense, that means that a uh university faculty member has made a discovery, they have filed a patent on it, and now the tech transfer office helps to work to get that patented technology licensed to a company that could put it to use.
42:33
SPEAKER_04: Or they will help the faculty member potentially form a startup company that can do something with that technology.
42:40
SPEAKER_04: But it is really the very practical and business aspects of moving that technology from the laboratory and out into practical utility.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell So I uh a follow-up question.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm really big into sort of entrepreneurship and how that fits in.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: And so did you uh did you deal with a lot of faculty entrepreneurs who sort of started a company on the backs of what they'd done in their research, or was it most is there a lot more licensing than sort of in-house startups, I suppose?
43:07
SPEAKER_01: Or or or you know, startups birthed in the university?
43:09
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Ross Powell So the answer is going to actually depend on the university.
43:12
SPEAKER_04: So at Mines, it was more licensing.
43:14
SPEAKER_04: We certainly had some startups, and it was more heavily on licensing.
43:18
SPEAKER_04: At other universities, it'll flip.
43:20
SPEAKER_04: And I'll tell you why.
43:21
SPEAKER_04: Among the tech transfer community, there is sort of this saying, and I don't know if it's still true.
43:26
SPEAKER_04: So you had these invention disclosures before you file a patent.
43:29
SPEAKER_04: So for every sort of every invention disclosure that makes like significant money in the future, I'm trying to remember the numbers, but it might be something as grim as like every thousand of them or something.
43:41
SPEAKER_04: But let's say every hundred of them, only six are ever going to make real money.
43:45
SPEAKER_04: And of those six, four are gonna be biotech, one is gonna be software, and one is gonna be everything else.
43:51
SPEAKER_03: Oh, really?
43:52
SPEAKER_03: Oh wow.
43:53
SPEAKER_04: At a university like mine's, where you don't have a medical school and you're not doing heavy in the biotech.
44:00
SPEAKER_04: By definition, you're sort of pushed into that everything else category.
44:03
SPEAKER_04: So the startup, the incentives for startups and the investment funding and things like that to support that is not as strong outside the biotech world.
44:12
SPEAKER_04: So you'll see a shift from university to university depending on where their research strengths are.
44:17
SPEAKER_04: So the bottom line is everybody has to do both, but you might get better at some than others depending on what your faculty are actually doing.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: Would you see that changing?
44:25
SPEAKER_01: And maybe this brings up, I think I've seen a couple DARPA calls for like sort of critical minerals, artificial minerals, I think was when I saw a call for funding or a call for proposals.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: Would you see that changing from the geosciences given how much massive investment is going into carbon sequestration and critical minerals and what groundwater, maybe even nuclear energy, uranium deposits?
44:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, would you see that kind of shifting on the horizon?
44:50
SPEAKER_01: That geoscience startup culture becomes more a bigger part, maybe or not?
44:55
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I actually can imagine that it could.
44:58
SPEAKER_04: I think that certainly with climate and energy and opportunities like that, you'll see a lot more of it.
45:04
SPEAKER_04: You know, you have to think from the side the sides of the investors, which is where do they have the best guarantee on investment for a lot of reasons historically.
45:11
SPEAKER_04: You know, first of all, software is easy because you don't have to put a lot of money in and you can potentially get a lot of money out.
45:16
SPEAKER_04: Biotech has just been so huge.
45:19
SPEAKER_04: No reason why you wouldn't start to expect to see more in some of these other domains.
45:23
SPEAKER_04: I think, especially if you can potentially accelerate them more with the aid of um uh machine learning and and things like that.
45:30
SPEAKER_04: So there might be some a lot more bets that could be placed in the coming in the coming years.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Stephanie, does DARPA dabble or invest in climate technology?
45:40
SPEAKER_00: Is that a part of defense?
45:42
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Powell It's absolutely uh part of our portfolio.
45:45
SPEAKER_04: A number of years ago, there was a naval officer, the I think the head of oceanography for the Navy who made this comment that said, I'm not going to argue about what what or why is happening, but there's a whole new ocean opening up in the Arctic.
45:55
SPEAKER_04: And I would like to be able to know something about that.
45:59
SPEAKER_04: So we you know we have to we have to deal with climate and and also with weather as you know as well.
46:05
SPEAKER_04: But uh yeah, so we have we have no restrictions on it.
46:08
SPEAKER_04: But TARP is very bottoms up.
46:09
SPEAKER_04: We bring these program managers in and we say change the world.
46:12
SPEAKER_04: And so we have a few that are really looking with great interest at uh you know impacts of like coastal, like sea level rise.
46:20
SPEAKER_04: So we have a program called Refense, which looks at hybrid natural artificial reefs off coastlines, things like that.
46:27
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, so it is certainly part of our uh overall portfolio.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell I mean, this program manager job seems like the greatest job in the world.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: How does one become a program manager at Dartbar?
46:36
SPEAKER_01: This sounds amazing.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: Are you taking applications?
46:40
SPEAKER_04: We are always looking.
46:41
SPEAKER_04: You know, given that we're kicking them out at such a high rate, it means that a significant part of all of our jobs is recruiting new PMs.
46:47
SPEAKER_04: If you are interested in changing the world and you feel like you know, a lot of times it's like you know, the things that you want to do, no one else is willing to take a risk on.
46:56
SPEAKER_04: You just like come to DARPA and make it happen here.
46:59
SPEAKER_04: And then you can either when you're done, you either go back to where you came from or we'll help you find your next great job.
47:04
SPEAKER_04: So you just you can contact us through our website, you know, anybody out there that's interested.
47:08
SPEAKER_04: That's probably the simplest way to nobody else is allowed.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna apply, and I don't want anybody else looking.
47:13
SPEAKER_01: I just want my application in this cycle.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: So Stephanie, I imagine you probably how do you get people because they probably have to leave an already lucrative job to come to DARPA, probably, right?
47:24
SPEAKER_00: A lot of at least a lot of times.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
47:26
SPEAKER_04: They do indeed.
47:26
SPEAKER_04: And and I'm sure you'll be shocked to know that the government is not the highest paid job they're bringing back.
47:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
47:33
SPEAKER_04: So we have a lot of special hiring authorities.
47:36
SPEAKER_04: That means that we have been given legal authority by the government to hire people with different processes than the normal government hiring.
47:43
SPEAKER_04: So I can actually hire somebody in a week, and I can offer salaries that they're not going to match Silicon Valley level industry, but they are higher than typical government because they are temporary by definition.
47:56
SPEAKER_04: And so we can help you know meet in the middle often.
47:59
SPEAKER_04: And what we offer them is a variety is the I mean the kinds of problems they can work on and the freedom and flexibility that they have.
48:05
SPEAKER_04: For a lot of people, it's worth it to take slightly less salary for a while.
48:10
SPEAKER_04: And as I said, we also help them find like where they're gonna go next so that when they're done, they're not out on the street, you know, with it with a tin cup, right?
48:20
SPEAKER_04: So they they our DARPA alumni have done amazing things and uh, it's an interesting model.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: It really is.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: I absolutely love it.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: Sounds so cool, so inspiring.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: Real quick, before we get to our final question, I have one we're geologists, so we gotta what's your favorite rock, Stephanie?
48:38
SPEAKER_01: Do you have one?
48:38
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a specific rock that you could that you have in your house?
48:41
SPEAKER_01: Do you still have a rock collection, you know, somewhere in your house?
48:43
SPEAKER_01: Or and or do you have like a general rock that's your favorite, a category of rock that's your favorite?
48:48
SPEAKER_04: Um So for a specific rock, I am working in uh uh Virginia right now because of this job.
48:53
SPEAKER_04: My home is still back home in Colorado.
48:55
SPEAKER_04: But in my home in Colorado, I know I have a nice uh hand sample-sized piece of church that I picked up when I was in field camp in Montana.
49:04
SPEAKER_04: And I actually don't really understand you know all the origins of it, but I fell in love with it then and I have carried it everywhere since.
49:10
SPEAKER_04: So that's my favorite.
49:13
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
49:14
SPEAKER_01: This is a rock that's traveled with you all around.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:18
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's sort of smooth and nice to hold and it reminds you of field camp, right?
49:24
SPEAKER_00: You know I mean that's that's warm, fuzzy feelings.
49:27
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: Indeed.
49:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: Stephanie, our final question, because we're running out of time here.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: We always end with this.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: What has been your best day or favorite day as a geoscientist?
49:39
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
49:40
SPEAKER_00: And you can take that any direction you want to go.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't necessarily have to be you as a geoscientist either.
49:45
SPEAKER_01: We could we'll we'll accept anything from your career, maybe.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: That geoscience set you up for very nicely.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: Maybe let's qualify it as yeah.
49:53
SPEAKER_04: One of the best and also hardest parts about being a DARPA is that we have amazing days every day, right?
49:59
SPEAKER_04: I get to learn something new and or people have breakthroughs every single day.
50:03
SPEAKER_04: So I don't know, it would take me a while to sift through.
50:07
SPEAKER_04: Let's say this, and maybe this is for you know, those members of your audience that are a little bit more like the student that I was a long time.
50:14
SPEAKER_04: The day that I passed my PhD exams was amazing because I was the most mediocre undergraduate student you could ever imagine.
50:22
SPEAKER_04: It was quite shocking that I got into graduate school at all.
50:25
SPEAKER_04: You know, the Army work ethic helped a lot.
50:27
SPEAKER_04: I changed how I was thinking about things.
50:29
SPEAKER_04: And the fact that I became super passionate about something and was able to be successful in it and prove that I could do something that I never would have imagined was a pretty big moment for me.
50:39
SPEAKER_04: So that's really cool.
50:42
SPEAKER_04: And at that moment, by definition, I was the closest to being a pure geoscientist as newly minted PhD, right?
50:47
SPEAKER_04: So what more could you ask?
50:49
SPEAKER_01: That's that's amazing.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's a great lesson.
50:51
SPEAKER_01: I think like, you know, great can come from anywhere.
50:54
SPEAKER_01: Like you don't have to be all A's all the time to go on to be the head of DARPA.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: Like uh you just I don't know.
51:00
SPEAKER_01: That that's a that's a really cool story.
51:02
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Stephanie, for joining us.
51:04
SPEAKER_01: This has been an absolute pleasure.
51:06
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for dedicating an hour and being so gracious to your time.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: And uh you can look forward to my application for program manager at DARPA.
51:13
SPEAKER_04: Uh I will be looking for it, and thank you so much.
51:16
SPEAKER_04: This was a real thrill for me.
51:17
SPEAKER_04: Uh I love being being able to chat with you guys.
51:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: It was so nice to meet you, Stephanie.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: Next time we'll talk more geology.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: All right.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Stephanie.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: Have a good rest of your day.
51:27
SPEAKER_01: All right.
51:27
SPEAKER_01: You too.
51:28
SPEAKER_00: All right.