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Tom Clavin - BOOK - Running Deep · Brian Thomas

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  Speaker 1: Eight oh five, ifik I have KRCD Talk Station, a
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  Speaker 1: very happy Wednesday to I have been looking forward to
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  Speaker 1: this moment in time since I got here in the
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  Speaker 1: morning show to find out that Tom Clavin is on
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  Speaker 1: the rundown. He's joined the program right now to talk
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  Speaker 1: about his new book. By way of background, you probably
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  Speaker 1: already know him, best selling author of twenty five let
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  Speaker 1: Me Underscore the Word non fiction books on military history,
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  Speaker 1: sports and entertainment. His writing career began in journalism as
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  Speaker 1: a rover reporter for The New York Times fifteen years,
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  Speaker 1: as well as contributed to multiple national magazines, awarded numerous
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  Speaker 1: prizes by the Society of Professional Journalists National Newspaper Association.
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  Speaker 1: His books multiple award winners, including six that made it
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  Speaker 1: to the New York Times Bestseller He has written several screenplays,
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  Speaker 1: including a couple of his books that are currently being
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  Speaker 1: developed as screen projects. And I'm guessing Tom Claven welcome
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  Speaker 1: that this book we're talking about this morning is going
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  Speaker 1: to be number three. I want to see a movie
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  Speaker 1: about this running Deep Bravery's Survival and the true story
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  Speaker 1: of the deadliest submarine in World War I to Tom,
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  Speaker 1: it's a pleasure to have you on the program.
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  Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me back on the show.
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  Speaker 2: And I agree it would make a terrific movie.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, terrific story. So to begin with.
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  Speaker 1: It's insane. And you know right now there is a
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  Speaker 1: man in my listening audience, a dear friend of mine,
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  Speaker 1: a career submariner, spent his entire career in the military
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  Speaker 1: and submarines. And Mike is out there sitting on the
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  Speaker 1: edge of a seat. You've already sold one book, I
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  Speaker 1: assure you, Tom, And he knew about this boat. He
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  Speaker 1: knew about the Captain Richard Okaine, which is featured in
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  Speaker 1: the book. So let's dive on into it. You described
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  Speaker 1: this is the deadliest submarine in World War Two.
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  Speaker 3: So like.
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  Speaker 1: Pilots get kills and they can become you know, certain
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  Speaker 1: levels of pilots an ace. For example, this sub sunk
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  Speaker 1: more vessels than any of the other in the entire
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  Speaker 1: World War Two.
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  Speaker 3: It did it did?
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  Speaker 2: It is the USS Tang and it was the best
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  Speaker 2: attack submarine the US had in the Pacific theater. And
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  Speaker 2: it sank thirty three Japanese ships and what have sunk
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  Speaker 2: except it ran into it, you know, ran into an
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  Speaker 2: entire convoy that was trying to take out. It proved
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  Speaker 2: to be a little too much, but the Tang was
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  Speaker 2: was the most recognized. And I'm glad you mentioned about
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  Speaker 2: your friend who knows about Richard o'caine, because amongst some
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  Speaker 2: mariners there seems to be a recognition of Ocaine and
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  Speaker 2: he's like the Navy equivalent of Vaudie Murphy.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, but to the general public they don't.
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  Speaker 2: They've never heard of the guy, which is which is
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  Speaker 2: a shame because he was great Guite, the heroic character
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  Speaker 2: in World War Two.
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  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I wait to you here. We'll get a
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  Speaker 1: brief little sliver of the excitement that these men were
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  Speaker 1: involved with on the submarine. But Mike wanted you and
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  Speaker 1: meet to know my listening honience is going to pass along.
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  Speaker 1: There was a street named after the Tang in Groton,
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  Speaker 1: Connecticut at the submarine base, and the CEO there, Richard
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  Speaker 1: Dick o'caine is also apparently they have a officers quarters
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  Speaker 1: named after him on the sub bay. So everyone in
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  Speaker 1: the Navy knows who this guy is. Let's talk about
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  Speaker 1: some of the action they First off, what was life
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  Speaker 1: like in a World War two submarine? I can't imagine
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  Speaker 1: it was fun.
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  Speaker 3: No, it wasn't.
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  Speaker 2: And in fact, you can only volunteer for submarine duty.
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  Speaker 2: You cannot be assigned to it because it was It
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  Speaker 2: was not only very cramped and very tight quarters. If
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  Speaker 2: you're claustrophobic, you were sunk, you can say, but it
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  Speaker 2: was dangerous.
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  Speaker 3: It was.
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  Speaker 2: You know, the mortality rate for a submarine sailor was
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  Speaker 2: six times that of a surface ship sailor, so that
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  Speaker 2: we lost fifty two boats was sunk during World War two,
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  Speaker 2: and so there was a lot of a lot of
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  Speaker 2: the Navy guys they said nothing to do with submarines, but.
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  Speaker 3: They turned out to be especially effective.
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  Speaker 2: And the tang was was head and shoulders above the
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  Speaker 2: other submarines and being able to hunt down and sink
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  Speaker 2: Japanese shipping.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you're right about psychological profile to serve on a submarine,
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  Speaker 1: I personally would not pass that test. The idea of
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  Speaker 1: it's less about claustrophobia, Tom, but the idea of depth
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  Speaker 1: charges exploding around you at any moment in time, you
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  Speaker 1: might I implode and sink to the bottom of the sea,
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  Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about here in a minute.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you could be bonds, you'd be sailing on
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  Speaker 2: the surface and a plane spots you.
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  Speaker 3: It could bother you.
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  Speaker 2: You could be underwater and a depth charges like you said,
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  Speaker 2: could come and get you. There could be a malfunction.
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  Speaker 2: And the thing is when a submarine is in danger
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  Speaker 2: of sinking and it goes under the water, there's no
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  Speaker 2: way to go. I mean, one of the things about
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  Speaker 2: it. If you want to destroyer or a battleship or an
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  Speaker 2: aircraft carrier and it's damaged, you have the option of
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  Speaker 2: getting into a lifeboat or if you need to jump
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  Speaker 2: overboard and hold on to something. In a submarine, there's
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  Speaker 2: no jumping overboard. There's no way out. So that's another
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  Speaker 2: reason why it was especially risky and tension film way of.
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  Speaker 3: Serving the Navy.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you go into great detail about this and then
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  Speaker 1: let's fast forward and obviously I don't want a huge
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  Speaker 1: reveal on this, but it's so exciting conceptually. This is
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  Speaker 1: the book selling moment right here, at this moment in time,
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  Speaker 1: Tom Clayville. Let's fast forward to October twenty fourth, nineteen
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  Speaker 1: forty four.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, eighty one years ago, this Friday, and the tang
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  Speaker 2: is in the Foremosa Strait, which is off the coast
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  Speaker 2: of China and it encounters an entire Japanese convoy. Now,
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  Speaker 2: some submarines were operated in packs, were one submarine, but
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  Speaker 2: the tank was always a kind of a lone wolf.
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  Speaker 2: It was by itself. Saw this convoy, it couldn't let
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  Speaker 2: it pass pass through. So an attack that took out
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  Speaker 2: an entire convoy. It was actually destroying it when it
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  Speaker 2: fired its last torpedo, which boomerang came back and struck
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  Speaker 2: the tang. It sank to aundred. It came to the
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  Speaker 2: rest of the bottom a hundred and eighty feet. The
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  Speaker 2: captain and some of the crew members rightaged to survive.
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  Speaker 2: It's a really exciting sequence to tell you out of
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  Speaker 2: the boat. Okay, there's a lot of process here. They
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  Speaker 2: were sunk by their own torpedo. I didn't even know
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  Speaker 2: that was a concept, tom. I guess we're happy we
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  Speaker 2: have more modern technology that can't happen anymore.
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  Speaker 3: Well.
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  Speaker 2: One of the reveals I think of Running Deep is
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  Speaker 2: how how inadequate.
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  Speaker 3: A lot of our torpedoes were. I mean, when you.
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  Speaker 2: Watch a movie about World War Two and somebody fires
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  Speaker 2: a torp, you know it always hits the target, but
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  Speaker 2: a lot of times too often, and where we're to
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  Speaker 2: the reality was that that torpedoes would explode too early,
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  Speaker 2: they would be completely duds, and they can boomerang. They
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  Speaker 2: could the gyroscope would go crazy and they would come
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  Speaker 2: around as in case of the tank, and strike the
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  Speaker 2: tank in the stern. It sank stern first. A lot
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  Speaker 2: of the guys and the boat were killed, but some
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  Speaker 2: managed to escape and get to the surface where you know,
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  Speaker 2: they went from the frying pan to the fire because
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  Speaker 2: they were rescued by Japanese sailors who weren't too happy
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  Speaker 2: about the submarine that I just destroyed a lot of
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  Speaker 2: the shipping.
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  Speaker 1: No, I imagine not so they sink one hundred and eighty
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  Speaker 1: feet down. Eighty seven total crew men were on this submarine,
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  Speaker 1: which again I'm trying to struggle with the reality of
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  Speaker 1: the living conditions in this tightest space with eighty seven
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  Speaker 1: but nine and manages to get to the surface. Can
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  Speaker 1: I just say a screw briefly, how the hell do
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  Speaker 1: you get from one hundred and eighty feet down in
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  Speaker 1: a sealed container to get to the surface.
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  Speaker 2: Well, you know, there are two or three the captain
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  Speaker 2: and a couple of guys were on the bridge when
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  Speaker 2: the torpedo hits. They were thrown into the water, but
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  Speaker 2: there were six others that down below that. They had
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  Speaker 2: this device called the bombson lung which was invented right
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  Speaker 2: before the war, which you put it on and it's
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  Speaker 2: sort of like it's not a scuba diving kind of thing,
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  Speaker 2: and so that's just a little inflatable thing. But the
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  Speaker 2: idea was they could give you enough oxygen to give
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  Speaker 2: you a chance to get to the surface. And so
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  Speaker 2: that's what these guys did. They put any Bobson lungs
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  Speaker 2: they got into it the escape chamber, they would push
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  Speaker 2: down into the water and they headed for the surface.
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  Speaker 2: Some made it, some did not.
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  Speaker 1: Now I have to ask you, are these like parachutes.
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  Speaker 1: Every of the eighty every one of the eighty seven
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  Speaker 1: crewmen had one of the us to use.
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  Speaker 2: Well, they were on board.
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  Speaker 3: Let's put it that way. Life preservers.
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  Speaker 2: You didn't bother or even think about them until you
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  Speaker 2: ably absolutely need them and hoped they would work. It
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  Speaker 2: was like one was issued to every sailor was hopefully
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  Speaker 2: in the escape chamber.
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  Speaker 3: You'd find them available, all right.
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  Speaker 1: So when they make it to the top, the remaining
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  Speaker 1: nine survivors and nine survivors. They were in fact captured
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  Speaker 1: by the Japanese and placed in what you describe in
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  Speaker 1: the book as a torture can camp.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, torture camp because they they were considered almost like
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  Speaker 2: terrorists because they preyed on civilian shipping, which you know,
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  Speaker 2: like the Japanese equivalent of the Virgin Marine, and so
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  Speaker 2: they were in the brutal conditions very similar to what
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  Speaker 2: the book Unbroken.
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  Speaker 3: In fact, Louis Zamparini, he was the hero of.
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  Speaker 2: The book Unbroken, was one of Captain o'caine's fellow officers
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  Speaker 2: at this particular torture camp. And O'Kane was a particular
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  Speaker 2: target because let's once they found out he was a
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  Speaker 2: captain of the submarine that had destroyed more shipping, more
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  Speaker 2: of their boats than any ships than any of the submarine.
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  Speaker 2: They really had it out for him and he barely
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  Speaker 2: survived when to the camp.
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  Speaker 3: We liberated home on.
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  Speaker 1: I bet he was a target of some serious abuse, sir,
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  Speaker 1: I truly believe. Oh yeah, well, and he did, I guess,
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  Speaker 1: ultimately earn the highest award of the land, the Medal
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  Speaker 1: of Honor, as well as other decorations. Was it for
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  Speaker 1: his service obviously on the Tang, but it was because
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  Speaker 1: of this particular operation where they sung so many of
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  Speaker 1: this Japanese fleet. Is that the basis for his receiving
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  Speaker 1: the Medal of Honor.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I should point out that that Rizie O'Kane was
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  Speaker 2: like the Audie Murphy of the US Navy. He was
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  Speaker 2: the most decorated naval officer of World War Two. So
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  Speaker 2: he had already been recognized for his service for operating,
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  Speaker 2: being the captain of this terrific effective submarine.
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  Speaker 3: But I think what got in the Medal of Honor is.
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  Speaker 2: That during his captivity in the torture camp, he endured,
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  Speaker 2: and he got his men to endure, he got others
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  Speaker 2: to endure. He was really an inspiration that he would
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  Speaker 2: basically I almost call this book Undefeated.
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  Speaker 3: He refused to be defeated.
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  Speaker 2: By no matter what the Japanese hold out to him,
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  Speaker 2: and I think that helped other people survive terrific conditions.
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  Speaker 2: So I think the Medal of Honor was moreferent for
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  Speaker 2: his survival and the survival of others.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, and a great lesson to be learned for us
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  Speaker 1: who struggle with you know, a fraction of the day
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  Speaker 1: to day challenges that he struggled with. You know, inspiration
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  Speaker 1: can be derived from a man who walked out of
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  Speaker 1: a torture camp at ninety pounds after being subjected to
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  Speaker 1: that abuse. That's truly, truly something be said, Tom claven.
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  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, did you have in doing
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  Speaker 1: your research for this? Did you have access to diaries
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  Speaker 1: or personal accounts by the people who served on the
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  Speaker 1: ship on the submarine. Where did you come up with
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  Speaker 1: the information to understand these day to day conditions and
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  Speaker 1: what they went through.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you mention that, because they when the
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  Speaker 2: survivors of the tank got back to the United States
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  Speaker 2: and once they recovered enough physically from their various injuries,
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  Speaker 2: they were all debriefed. And there's also all histories at
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  Speaker 2: the World War Two Center Museum in New Orleans. Richard
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  Speaker 2: o'caine years later, which is it's been very interesting, he
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  Speaker 2: wrote a book called Clear the Bridge about his experiences
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  Speaker 2: as a tank captain, but he only devoted two pages
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  Speaker 2: to his a year long incarceration in the torture camp.
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  Speaker 2: Like even years later, he couldn't he couldn't bear to
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  Speaker 2: write about it. There are other officers that kept diaries
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  Speaker 2: so yes, there was, thankfully lucky for me, a lot
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  Speaker 2: of archivro material to draw from.
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  Speaker 1: How did I'd never heard of the tank obviously didn't
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  Speaker 1: serve in the military, most notably Navy on a submarine
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  Speaker 1: like Mike did. But how did you learn personally of
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  Speaker 1: the tang and Richard O'Kaine to write this book? Because
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  Speaker 1: this is yet another, as far as I know, untold
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  Speaker 1: story coming out of World War Two. It's twenty twenty five.
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  Speaker 1: You'd think we'd have heard all of this by now, Tom.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly how could there still be a story we don't
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  Speaker 2: know about? But again, I was researching something else and
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  Speaker 2: I stumbled upon and I mentioned of Audio Murphy comparing
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  Speaker 2: him to Richard O'Kaine because of being the most decorated officers.
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  Speaker 2: I've never heard of this guy. Most people have heard
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  Speaker 2: of Audio Murphy because he went on to become a
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  Speaker 2: Hollywood star and made movies.
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  Speaker 3: Right like that.
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  Speaker 2: But Richard O'Cain, who.
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  Speaker 3: The heck is that? You know? A guy whom born
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  Speaker 3: in New Hampshire and he became one of the most
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  Speaker 3: decorated officer of the Maybe.
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  Speaker 2: So that's how I sort of stumbled upon it, and
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  Speaker 2: it was one of those things where I just kept
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  Speaker 2: peeling back layers and finding more information and more information
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  Speaker 2: found out about the Tang. How can nobody noticed it?
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  Speaker 2: About the Tang and the most effective submarine in World
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  Speaker 2: War Two? So the more I learned, the more I realized,
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  Speaker 2: this is just an incredible story. And thankfully it's not
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  Speaker 2: been told for a mainstream of money. It's until Running Deep.
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  Speaker 1: That's why we have you, Tom Claven doing it time
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  Speaker 1: after time after time. Twenty five non fiction books. I
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  Speaker 1: guess does this make it twenty six or is this
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  Speaker 1: number twenty five?
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  Speaker 2: You know, I'm like Jack Benny who never got past
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  Speaker 2: age thirty nine. I had twenty five books.
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  Speaker 3: That's this my story. I'm sticking to it.
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  Speaker 1: There you go. Congratulations on the winning of the New
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  Speaker 1: York Times Bestseller. Another one. We're going to talk about
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  Speaker 1: six New York Times bestsellers. Everyone's going to want to
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: get a copy of Running Deep, Bravery Survival and the
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: True Story of the Deadliest Submarine of World War Two. Tom,
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  Speaker 1: It's always a pleasure talking with you. Keep up the
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: great work, and I know my listener is going to
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: grab up a copy of this. We've already got on
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: my blog page at fifty five kros dot com to
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: make it really easy for them to do that.