Latest / Flyer Magazine / Waco Whacked! Sonex Saved! - The FLYER Show - 7th May 2026

Transcript

Waco Whacked! Sonex Saved! - The FLYER Show - 7th May 2026 · Flyer Magazine

0:04
SPEAKER_04: This is the Fly Show in podcast form for the Flyer Team.
0:07
SPEAKER_04: It's your weekly dose of General Aviation news, views, and flying chat.
0:11
SPEAKER_04: In this episode, we're looking at boom and bust in the tough world of the GA business.
0:15
SPEAKER_04: Or GA business without the the even.
0:18
SPEAKER_04: But I'm gonna carry on.
0:19
SPEAKER_04: Must have been usual observations, digressions, and opinions from the team.
0:22
SPEAKER_04: So if you like airplanes, airfields, airspace, and the strange little world that surrounds them, you're in the right place.
0:28
SPEAKER_04: Hello and welcome to this week's Flight Show from Wadswick, where it's a bit chilly today.
0:33
SPEAKER_04: Um My name's Ian Seeger.
0:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm Ed Hicks.
0:35
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Dave Corderwood.
0:37
SPEAKER_04: Excellent, excellent.
0:37
SPEAKER_04: We're getting there.
0:38
SPEAKER_04: So in this week's show, we'll be taking a look at the boom and bust cycle that you get for the in the GA aviation business.
0:45
SPEAKER_04: Stick with us because there are a couple of names in there that will probably surprise you.
0:49
SPEAKER_04: Plus, we got tips from Sky Demon, weather from Simon, and all the usual stuff.
0:54
SPEAKER_04: Um, first of all, let's take a look at the Sky Demon tip, but before we do that, big big thanks to Sky Demon for supporting the channel.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Hannah from Sky Demon, and this is this week's top tip.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: If you want to see what other pilots have said about a particular airfield, go to Information and Pilot Notes.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: You can see what other people have said.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: They've left reviews and comments.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to leave your own note.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: For more information, go to our website skydemon.arrow.
1:36
SPEAKER_04: I have to say, pilot notes is the first thing I look at if I'm going somewhere new.
1:39
SPEAKER_04: What do other people think?
1:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I think that that is probably one of the nicest community aspects of uh of Sky Demon.
1:47
SPEAKER_04: So if you've visited somewhere recently, and don't forget, leave a bit of a pilot note for all the rest of us.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: I thought you said pilot notes nose when you first said that.
1:56
SPEAKER_03: Pilot noses.
1:58
SPEAKER_03: I would like to remark about my nose.
2:00
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
2:01
SPEAKER_03: Um talking about someone with a good nose.
2:06
SPEAKER_03: For wine or for something else?
2:08
SPEAKER_03: For weather.
2:09
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
2:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
2:10
SPEAKER_03: Shall we see what uh Simon has in store for us for the forecast?
2:13
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Even all, hope that you're well this evening.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: Looking forward to the weekend.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: It's a bit of a messy one coming up.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: I'll show you what I mean uh in just a few moments.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: But kicking off with Friday, first of all, looks like we get some decent spells of sunshine around, some broken cloud through Friday morning across most of England and Wales.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: Notice that line of cloud and rain though that's sinking south through the far south of Scotland into northern England, getting into southern parts of Ireland.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: It's a weak front, it's got bits and pieces of rain associated with it.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: So along that, I think we will find some bases of 1,000 feet, perhaps tops uh at around 12,000 feet.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Elsewhere, though, through the morning, bases typically around sort of 3,000 feet, tops 10 to 12,000 feet.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: Dry weather following into Scotland, you'll notice there, but fairly cloudy, although the far northwest becoming sunnier.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: Now watch what happens through Friday afternoon.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Keep an eye on those showers across uh southern parts of England.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: Also that band of showery rain across northern England, and just notice how they intensify a little bit during the afternoon so that by seven o'clock in the evening we've got cloud, we've got outbreaks of rain, quite murky conditions here extending through uh parts of northern England, mostly over the hills, but there will be some intensification of those showers, and again, bases a thousand, two thousand feet tops up at about twelve thousand feet, and those heavier showers getting going across um southern parts of the Midlands, the western Midlands, running into parts of Wales as well.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: Now they could be quite thundery uh in places, and um, yeah, wouldn't be surprised with some um bases around two, three thousand feet tops, perhaps getting up to twenty thousand feet elsewhere.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: It's not a bad flying day.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: Now, into Saturday, the morning, still got the remnants of that front lying through northern England, lots of cloud, some outbreaks of shower rain here, particularly affecting northeast England, generally non-verifiable because of that.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: So bases about a thousand, two thousand feet, tops around twelve to fifteen thousand feet, some uncertainty in the detail of that.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's not one just to completely rule out flying.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: I think it's one just to be checking the forecast.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Across Scotland, across Ireland, it's looking pretty decent here.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: But across uh central, southern, eastern parts of England, dry, fairly cloudy, could be quite misty first thing.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: Base is two, three thousand feet tops at about 10 to 12,000 feet.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: But just look at this area of rain that's coming to the southwest, non-verifiable here because of that.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: Now, during the course of the morning into the afternoon, the rain across northern England continues, slips its way southwards into the northern parts of the Midlands and northern parts of Wales.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: The rain across southwest England continues, but it is just the far southwest.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: I think elsewhere for um central, southern, eastern England, probably dry, fairly cloudy, bases around 3,000 feet, tops at 10,000 feet.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: Brighter in Scotland, you'll notice.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, one or two showers just showing up here, mostly across the east and generally fair across Ireland.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: And then for uh Sunday, so uh we are going to see some more cloud across more southern areas of the country.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Quite a dull start to the day.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: But notice that that cloud breaks as we get into the afternoon.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: Quite windy across southern England with the northeaster breeze picking up, gusting around 25 knots or so.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: Elsewhere, generally flyable, broken cloud, well broken cloud, actually, the best of the sunshine across northern England.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: And we're looking at bases around three to four thousand feet, tops getting up at about 10 to 12,000 feet, but an area of rain moving into the far north of Scotland later on Sunday, bringing some further outbreaks of rain here.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: So, for me, really the pick of the day more broadly is going to be Sunday.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: Saturday is not too bad.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, but we just need to watch that cloud and rain, particularly across England and Wales during the course of Saturday.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: And if you're flying on Friday, then just be aware of those showers and also that rain across northern parts of England.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: Phew, quite a bit to pick apart there, wasn't it?
6:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, if you want to be doing your own forecasts and building on those that I've just shown you and kind of get under the skin of weather, then Aviation Weather School is for you.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: My next part one course is actually kicking off next Tuesday.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: I've got a single place left because we've moved some people over onto the June course.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: So if you want to get on this one, uh it's going to take place over the Tuesday evenings of the 12th and 19th of May between 6:30pm and 9pm.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: And you can grab that place now by using the QR code or go to weatherschool.co.uk.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: It's great fun.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: You will learn so much, whether you're a pre-student PPL right the way through to the commercial pilot.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: I will show you what you really need to know about weather.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: And if those dates don't work for you, then join me in June on the Tuesday evenings of the 16th and 23rd.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: It'll be absolutely stupid to see you there.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: Right, I've taken up enough of your time.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: Have a great, have a safe, flying weekend.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: I'll see you next week.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: Bye for now.
6:57
SPEAKER_04: Time for some news.
6:59
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
6:59
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and Popham has been and gone.
7:02
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
7:02
SPEAKER_04: We were there.
7:03
SPEAKER_04: We was there, and hopefully you've seen the video.
7:05
SPEAKER_04: If not, Henry will put a link up.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: It was a really good, really good show again, wasn't it?
7:09
SPEAKER_02: It was.
7:10
SPEAKER_03: A bit hampered by the weather.
7:12
SPEAKER_03: Saturday was foggy to start, and then there was uh there was a period of intense.
7:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean in between, beautifully sunny, warm and pleasant, and unfortunately, Sunday's forecast was not very good, but actually Sunday turned out to be a really lovely day.
7:28
SPEAKER_03: Uh but it was a really quiet day, I think.
7:30
SPEAKER_04: I think every everyone went on Saturday morning, didn't they?
7:32
SPEAKER_04: Basically, and there were there was a bit, as we were leaving, there was a bit of an exodus of everybody else.
7:36
SPEAKER_04: Better get out of here before it gets horrible.
7:38
SPEAKER_04: And in fact, it did actually get horrible.
7:39
SPEAKER_03: It did.
7:40
SPEAKER_03: It did, yeah.
7:40
SPEAKER_03: But it was uh for the time we were down there, it was a great event.
7:44
SPEAKER_03: Uh we met so many of you, it was fantastic, uh, and we can't thank you enough for watching and saying hello, really.
7:49
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, no, I think it was a great event.
7:52
SPEAKER_04: I had a really good time.
7:54
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: So who's first in the news?
7:56
SPEAKER_03: So next in the news is Ed.
7:58
SPEAKER_03: It's me.
7:59
SPEAKER_03: And this is good news.
8:00
SPEAKER_03: Sonyx aircraft is back.
8:02
SPEAKER_03: Woo.
8:03
SPEAKER_03: Back in business, at least.
8:04
SPEAKER_03: They have a new owner and investor.
8:06
SPEAKER_03: Uh so obviously just over a month ago, we talked about the fact that uh Sonyx had announced that they were closing with immediate effect uh uh because they'd basically run out of money and it was all it was all bad news.
8:17
SPEAKER_03: No hope of a bailout in sight.
8:19
SPEAKER_03: However, uh new owner, Stephen Osborne, has come along.
8:22
SPEAKER_03: He's a pilot and general contractor in the area, and he's acquired all the assets of Sonyx uh LALC, including Sonix Aerospace and the Aero Conversions line of aero engines.
8:34
SPEAKER_03: So um uh and in just 21 days they put this deal together, which is great news.
8:39
SPEAKER_03: Um, business has been recapitalized and kits are going to be delivered.
8:44
SPEAKER_03: Um Osborne said, We're not coming back the same way we left.
8:48
SPEAKER_03: We are coming back better.
8:49
SPEAKER_03: Uh the next chapter is powered by a focused, experienced team assembled to streamline operations, improve production efficiency, and elevate our customers to an exceptional builder experience.
9:01
SPEAKER_03: The nice thing is that um former owner Mark Scharbel, he's now been he's been be put into a lead designer role.
9:07
SPEAKER_03: So he's still on board with Sonics.
9:10
SPEAKER_03: He made a pretty emotional YouTube.
9:12
SPEAKER_03: It was very emotional.
9:14
SPEAKER_03: And you could tell that it really cut deep with him, that it had it had got to that point.
9:18
SPEAKER_03: And he's had a long involvement with Sonics having taken over from the the Monet family.
9:24
SPEAKER_03: Um and it's just nice to see that that has got a good outcome.
9:28
SPEAKER_03: And um uh we were talking before we started recording the show, but um they're talking of honouring all the kit orders, aren't they?
9:34
SPEAKER_03: That's right that are in place.
9:36
SPEAKER_03: Um and that apparently there's 80 pre-orders for the Son X High Wing, which is good news.
9:41
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
9:41
SPEAKER_03: Um Tower kits resume shipping in May 2026.
9:44
SPEAKER_03: Well, hopefully now soon.
9:46
SPEAKER_03: Um full kit uh full kits for the airframe midsummer.
9:49
SPEAKER_04: So hopefully they'll they'll still have a little bijou standard Oskosh, because they are actually on the field anyway.
9:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, maybe I I I I'm sure exhibiting it Oshkosh is expensive, and if they didn't show up this w this year, it's one of those things, isn't it?
10:02
SPEAKER_03: If you don't turn up the rumour melts that they haven't turned up.
10:05
SPEAKER_03: But I'm sure no one no one would hold it against them.
10:08
SPEAKER_03: You go, it it's a tough time getting back out of uh problems like that.
10:12
SPEAKER_03: And you go, we know they're there.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and they always because it's just the other side of the airfield.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: They always have a a sort of a party.
10:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they they they there is a presence.
10:21
SPEAKER_03: I've never been invited to the party.
10:23
SPEAKER_02: No, no have I.
10:24
SPEAKER_02: But uh If it didn't happen then, making it up.
10:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, what I did notice, uh in Facebook chat, someone said um uh and Osborne was obviously watching the comments.
10:34
SPEAKER_03: Uh someone said, Are you gonna bring back the two s the two-seat subsonics?
10:39
SPEAKER_03: And um and apparently he's like, Yes.
10:40
SPEAKER_03: Oh wow.
10:41
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, watch this space.
10:44
SPEAKER_03: Very exciting.
10:45
SPEAKER_03: Very cool, very cool.
10:46
SPEAKER_04: Well, I've got the next story.
10:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah?
10:49
SPEAKER_04: Is it about drones?
10:51
SPEAKER_04: It is about drones.
10:52
SPEAKER_04: It is about drones.
10:53
SPEAKER_04: But it's also about loads of money.
10:55
SPEAKER_04: So this came in the form of a government announcement that came out yesterday.
10:58
SPEAKER_04: So it's a little bit dry.
11:00
SPEAKER_04: But basically, they've got 50 million quid um that they decided to put into the industry.
11:05
SPEAKER_04: About 26 of it will go towards pushing drones and advanced air mobility.
11:09
SPEAKER_04: While another 20 million is for something called a kind of number plate drone system, so that authorities can kind of get it and they can they can monitor drones in real time and stop the baddies and keep the good is.
11:20
SPEAKER_04: So if you're like a if you drop drugs into prisons, you should probably be worried about this.
11:25
SPEAKER_04: Um, but it kind of makes sense, I guess, because if it's gonna have so many drones operating beyond visual under sight, you do need some kind of regulation because it's likely to be at low level and over cities and stuff like that.
11:35
SPEAKER_04: Talking of which, that's a bit of a problem for me.
11:38
SPEAKER_04: I think uh all these drones and everything are gonna operate at low level.
11:41
SPEAKER_04: They're not gonna operate at flight level 350.
11:43
SPEAKER_04: I mean, they've got those drones, but they're for they're for other stuff.
11:46
SPEAKER_04: So if you read the letter that came from the Department of Transport to the CEA, kind of encouraging them, telling them what they needed to do.
11:52
SPEAKER_04: They they kind of wanted faster approvals, they wanted more drone integration, they wanted more managed airspace structures, more electronic conspicuity.
12:00
SPEAKER_04: And and they're always talking about integration, but aviation's got this great history of integration.
12:05
SPEAKER_04: What does it actually mean?
12:06
SPEAKER_04: Really, it means that the existing users get a whole load of other stuff, restrictions, and requirements dumped on top of them.
12:12
SPEAKER_04: So I'm not really showing what's going on there.
12:14
SPEAKER_04: And and apparently we're gonna have these flying taxis by 2028.
12:18
SPEAKER_04: Bullshit.
12:19
SPEAKER_04: Um I mean, I think we're gonna gradually there's a chance that we'll get gradually squeezed into smaller and smaller areas, or we'll have to be equipped to a higher standard than we currently are in in other areas to participate.
12:32
SPEAKER_04: So um it's kind of great that the government's spending money on aviation in one form or another, but I've yet to see, yet to believe whether this stuff's gonna actually I'm looking forward to seeing a drone with a tiny number plate on it.
12:45
SPEAKER_03: I think it might be an electronic number plate, you know.
12:48
SPEAKER_03: I think so.
12:49
SPEAKER_03: And uh and certainly at Aero, um I came across Uavionics who had a tiny little device.
12:54
SPEAKER_03: I think it was called a Ping 978, with some desig uh some other des designation, but it was all about having a little device you could put on any drone uh and that uh emits ADSB that allows them to absorb ADSB in.
13:08
SPEAKER_03: So but odd langu that there's no talk of ADSB in that language.
13:12
SPEAKER_03: No, it was a it was a very kind of it was lacking a lot of detail.
13:18
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
13:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
13:19
SPEAKER_05: I think.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: Well CIA has always made it clear that it's gonna have to operate on a detect and avoid system, haven't they?
13:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: So it's not gonna be see and avoid, because you can't see these little things.
13:28
SPEAKER_02: It's gonna have to be detect and avoid.
13:30
SPEAKER_02: So somehow the drones are gonna have to detect that we're there and we're gonna have some system that tells us about them as well, if there's any conflict.
13:37
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I think you're not to put too fine a point on it, you know, i i if I want if I have to sum it up, it's not obvious to me how we're gonna work or play well together.
13:45
SPEAKER_04: And I think the worry is that there are many people there who will be working, i.e.
13:48
SPEAKER_04: with lots of money, but many general aviation aircraft who will be seen as playing, and that may well uh not put us in a great position if we're not careful.
13:58
SPEAKER_03: And once uh once again, it seems like the pace of uh the pace of the drone world gets a fast track uh over the um the the existing certification pace of the the the fixed-wing world.
14:13
SPEAKER_04: I mean if you were real real real cynic and you go back a long time in history to when the when the UK had a booming general aviation industry, when there were literally hundreds of people building aircraft, uh companies building aircraft, you could say, well, effectively governments finally managed to get rid of that and to stop people being in that industry and they've discovered a new one, and they'll get them eventually.
14:35
SPEAKER_04: But that would be too cynical, I think.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: I know drones we're looking at hundreds of thousands, if not eventually millions, of things, aren't we?
14:44
SPEAKER_03: So Yeah.
14:45
SPEAKER_03: I mean the soundscape in the future is just gonna be.
14:49
SPEAKER_03: They would have you believe otherwise, because obviously we've created a uh an uh an ultra-silent drone.
14:55
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure there's you know, people are all like, oh no, it won't make that noise at all.
14:59
SPEAKER_04: It'll be walking around with like little ANR earbuds all the time.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: Cut out the noise of the drones.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, anyway, that's my story.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: Well, better news, uh, Delta Hawk, that's a company in the States producing Jet AE diesel burning engines.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, they're currently concentrating on the 180 horsepower V4, but there are other are other bigger engines underway.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: Their big projects at the moment is uh with Piper, that Piper's light twin, the Seminol, uh used for training and all sorts of things like that.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: Is um they're they've kind of they're working on a package for that.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: They've produced a final firewall forward package, um, and it's being installed at the moment, and that aircraft will be shown at Oshkosh.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: They showed a mock-up at uh Aero Friedrichschaffen.
15:43
SPEAKER_03: There was a wing, was there a wing with a they had a wing at Oskosh as well, didn't it?
15:46
SPEAKER_03: And and I think that same wing had come across the the Adlantech.
15:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, not not on its own.
15:52
SPEAKER_04: No airborne.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: But of course, it because the twin, they need a counter-rotating version on one of the wings, don't they, really?
16:00
SPEAKER_02: If you have Yeah.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: So and that's that's quite they're working on that as well.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: Um I wonder what the hardest thing about producing a counter-rotating engine is.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: If you're just not running it the same thing backwards, are you?
16:11
SPEAKER_02: You're running it there's all sorts of things that have to be.
16:14
SPEAKER_04: Isn't that how they do it on like two-stroke skiddoors and stuff like that?
16:17
SPEAKER_02: They run the two-stroke backwards.
16:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:19
SPEAKER_02: It's a lot easier on a skidoo than it is on an aeroplane.
16:22
SPEAKER_04: You don't really want it working.
16:27
SPEAKER_03: We need to send But it seems like Piper are pinning their hopes on this this being their their diesel twin success.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: Also, also to add that uh Delta Hawk are w working on the finalizing the firewall forward package for uh Vans projects as well, a Vans R V 14.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: That's already sort of underway.
16:47
SPEAKER_03: We saw saw that at Oshkosh last year.
16:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I know there was a bunch of refinements they wanted to make to that, but that's there are certainly people looking at the cost of an IO3 a a conventional Lycoming IO390 and going, well, with Av that I can only burn 100 LL with that.
17:04
SPEAKER_03: Uh and what are my options?
17:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: And we're also starting to work on an R V10 and an R V15 makes it as well.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
17:12
SPEAKER_04: Well, with the with the with the Avgas deadline approaching, yeah, yeah.
17:16
SPEAKER_04: Um this stuff's gonna become more and more important.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: It is, yeah.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: They they they do mention about the fact that they they want to work on versions for the Sester 172 and 182 as well.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we should probably find a ready market outside of the US.
17:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:29
SPEAKER_03: And of course Dell Talk is certified, isn't it?
17:32
SPEAKER_02: It is, yes.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: Of course, every variation you do, you have to go back.
17:37
SPEAKER_04: What's this space?
17:38
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
17:39
SPEAKER_04: What's the space?
17:39
SPEAKER_04: Right.
17:40
SPEAKER_04: Not much news at the moment.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: No.
17:42
SPEAKER_04: Um however, there is club news.
17:46
SPEAKER_04: There is club news.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: Who's got the May landing fees?
17:48
SPEAKER_04: Who's got the May fee?
17:49
SPEAKER_04: That'll be me.
17:51
SPEAKER_04: Easy to pronounce.
17:52
SPEAKER_03: I know one of them is Causeway.
17:54
SPEAKER_02: Causeway is one of them in Ireland, yeah.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:56
SPEAKER_02: Perth, Scotland.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: Scotland.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: Felthorpe in Norfolk.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: And Jersey.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: But for Jersey, it's only the first five visitors get a free one.
18:05
SPEAKER_04: And given that it's the 6th of May, those first five in May may well have been used up already.
18:09
SPEAKER_04: They may well have been used.
18:10
SPEAKER_04: Find out by calling the Jersey Aero Club and asking them.
18:13
SPEAKER_04: You may still be lucky.
18:14
SPEAKER_04: You never know.
18:15
SPEAKER_04: Uh plus as a whole, talking of Channel Islands, there was a great webinar the other week with Nigel Webb where he spoke uh about the Channel Islands, not only flying in and around it, but also a bit of a history.
18:26
SPEAKER_04: It was really, really nicely presented.
18:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, lots of people were talking about that and saying how good it was.
18:30
SPEAKER_04: Top job, top job.
18:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, absolutely.
18:33
SPEAKER_04: So uh don't forget, we'd like you to join the Flyer Club.
18:36
SPEAKER_04: We can't do all this for nothing, much as we'd love to, but we need to eat and stuff like that.
18:41
SPEAKER_04: Um so if you join the Flyer Club, you get basically access to everything we produce, all of the copy, all of the features, all of the news, all of the events, you get access to the forum, you get access to the webinars, you get access to everything really.
18:54
SPEAKER_04: Uh to the to the Skystream, which runs on a Wednesday afternoon.
18:57
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
18:57
SPEAKER_04: Um and do you know how much that costs?
18:59
SPEAKER_04: Six pounds a month.
19:01
SPEAKER_04: Six pounds a month.
19:02
SPEAKER_04: It's the best bargain in the city.
19:03
SPEAKER_04: It is the best bargaining in aviation.
19:05
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
19:05
SPEAKER_04: Flyer.co.uk forward slash membership.
19:08
SPEAKER_04: Go there.
19:09
SPEAKER_04: Join us now.
19:12
SPEAKER_04: So, boom and bust.
19:13
SPEAKER_04: We've all seen it throughout uh German aviation over our time.
19:16
SPEAKER_04: Uh and this is really as it applies to to airframes and stuff like that.
19:20
SPEAKER_04: There's a couple of current examples at the moment, um, namely Sonics and Waco.
19:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Waco.
19:26
SPEAKER_04: Waco?
19:26
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
19:27
SPEAKER_04: You say Waco, I say.
19:28
SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure it is Waco.
19:29
SPEAKER_04: I think it's Waco.
19:29
SPEAKER_04: It's Waco.
19:30
SPEAKER_04: It is Waco, it is.
19:31
SPEAKER_04: As in Waco.
19:32
SPEAKER_04: As in Wacamole.
19:34
SPEAKER_03: Do you know what Waco stands for?
19:37
SPEAKER_03: The Weaver Aircraft Company of Ohio.
19:41
SPEAKER_03: That's right, yeah.
19:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
19:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
19:44
SPEAKER_04: Nothing to do with Waco, Waco, Texas.
19:47
SPEAKER_03: Nothing too.
19:48
SPEAKER_03: No.
19:48
SPEAKER_03: And of course, uh uh Waco Aircraft currently uh is a reborn version of the original Waco that we just talked about.
19:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
19:58
SPEAKER_03: Came into being uh mid-80s.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: That's that yeah.
20:02
SPEAKER_02: It it was Yeah, the company didn't exactly go bust, original Waco, Waco.
20:06
SPEAKER_03: No, they just they just they they did a whole bunch of other things.
20:10
SPEAKER_03: They built metal aeroplanes after they built biplanes, which people probably don't remember.
20:15
SPEAKER_03: There's quite a lot of stuff they did.
20:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
20:17
SPEAKER_03: But then it's like a like many aviation companies tapered out um and uh Waco Aircraft Company came into being um to build the YMF 5 biplane.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:28
SPEAKER_03: Um the Great Lakes.
20:31
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, and eventually when uh current owner or when the owner when Pete Bowers came along, uh it's yeah, they were building the the YMF5 and put the Great Lakes into production, which I think was 2011, wasn't it?
20:44
SPEAKER_02: So Yeah, about that, yeah.
20:46
SPEAKER_03: The Great Lakes has got an interesting story to itself, of course, but um uh yes, that's another one that's probably that's been reborn and several times.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: Several times.
21:00
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yes.
21:01
SPEAKER_04: He had a he had a wacko.
21:03
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
21:04
SPEAKER_04: Um he traded it for a Great Lakes.
21:06
SPEAKER_05: Oh, okay.
21:07
SPEAKER_05: Wow.
21:08
SPEAKER_04: There you go.
21:09
SPEAKER_04: Just said that was a little bit more comfortable, not com physically comfortable, you know.
21:13
SPEAKER_04: The the Waco is a big, big area.
21:15
SPEAKER_04: Big biplane, yeah.
21:16
SPEAKER_04: Big old big old thing.
21:17
SPEAKER_04: Anyway, so uh last week, I think it was on Tuesday, uh everyone got an email saying please don't turn up for work on Wednesday.
21:23
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, it was shock uh shock news, wasn't it?
21:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:27
SPEAKER_02: Because it's only a year ago that they that DMO, the company that was funding it, put in another 12 million dollars.
21:33
SPEAKER_03: Uh on top of um they'd spent 30 million on the the Battle Creek um production facility already.
21:40
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, 42 million dollars.
21:42
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
21:43
SPEAKER_03: Um and I guess this is uh we were talking about this, and it's a general aviation so often is people make the joke, don't they?
21:52
SPEAKER_03: That's like, how do you make a small fortune in aviation?
21:55
SPEAKER_03: Start with a large one.
21:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's probably they're probably they're probably not seeing the funny side of it.
22:00
SPEAKER_04: That particular joke at the moment, are we?
22:01
SPEAKER_03: Probably not.
22:02
SPEAKER_03: But uh but it has to be said, Dieter Morschek, who is behind the D Mall group, uh, he was a Waco customer and uh obviously famous for uh bringing Junkers back to life.
22:14
SPEAKER_03: Um so I think Dieter made his fortune.
22:17
SPEAKER_03: Um he sold a big chunk of his suitcase manufacturing company Remoa, the luggage with the grooves.
22:24
SPEAKER_03: Um uh I think he made something like$750 million on that.
22:27
SPEAKER_04: Wow so that was his that was that he was a bit like was it Victor Kayam that we used to do the ads?
22:33
SPEAKER_04: I liked it so much I bought the company for razors or something like that.
22:36
SPEAKER_03: Quite possibly, yes.
22:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
22:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
22:39
SPEAKER_04: But yeah, no, I mean, and it was I I it was just a typical story of someone really getting involved and spending a whole load of money.
22:46
SPEAKER_04: There's I don't think anyone could have produced a spreadsheet that said that you know that they were ever going to get 42 million back out of building Warcos and even Juncker's aircraft.
22:55
SPEAKER_03: And it was uh it's a niche and unfortunately, like so many things in aviation, it's a niche operation, isn't it?
23:02
SPEAKER_03: It is, yeah.
23:02
SPEAKER_03: And it I think they built two Wacos in 2025.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Well, the uh gamma shipment report said they uh delivered three Warcos and one Juncker's Right.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and the one Juncker's was that German chap who've been flying it around Europe.
23:19
SPEAKER_04: Because that was the final assembly.
23:20
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
23:20
SPEAKER_04: So Juncker's Juncker's has now retreated back to Germany.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: I was wondering whether they ever really left, you know.
23:25
SPEAKER_03: Well that because their prime manufacturing site is in uh is in Germany, isn't it?
23:30
SPEAKER_03: That the Juncker's operation.
23:31
SPEAKER_03: I'm not seeing that I'm not seeing that there's lots of those being sold though either, to be perfectly honest with you.
23:36
SPEAKER_03: No, they had a launch edition, um, which was supposedly 50 of the A50s, which had sold out, but I I I'm not seeing evidence of there being 50 of them around.
23:46
SPEAKER_03: No, me neither.
23:47
SPEAKER_03: And I think you know I think they are beautiful things.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: Yes, they are.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: They are especially the the A50 heritage with the uh rotor.
23:54
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely beautiful.
23:55
SPEAKER_04: But that was you need to sell a lot of them.
23:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
23:59
SPEAKER_04: Needs to be a mass market thing in order to make any of that money back.
24:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:02
SPEAKER_04: Really, which it which is unlikely.
24:03
SPEAKER_04: So it's it's you know, it's very sad.
24:05
SPEAKER_04: And I'm and we're now kind of waiting and hoping that someone will come and do a Sonics on on Waco.
24:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because there must it's uh well uh uh on hearing the news of the closure, um Peter Bowers, the former owner of Waco, commented on Facebook um and he said uh Waco so in his opinion, Waco failed mainly because they chased the illusion of success instead of matching reality.
24:29
SPEAKER_03: Uh he said after the 2020 sale they poured millions into the Battle Creek campus, and it was way bigger than was required for the niche market of the YMF and the Great Lakes.
24:40
SPEAKER_03: Um flashy events, promotions, and an oversized setup that screened prestige, but markets the the the sales st uh stay tiny.
24:50
SPEAKER_03: Um he said it's the classic over-expansion over expansion into a small specialized segment.
24:55
SPEAKER_03: He said pride built the palace, reality closed the doors.
24:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
24:59
SPEAKER_04: It's really tough.
24:59
SPEAKER_04: Uh you know, and we and we know neat or in our little corner of general aviation publishing, you know, we have to do things on a on a shoestring.
25:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
25:06
SPEAKER_04: The studio has three pallets as a background.
25:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it doesn't have a Walnut Studio.
25:12
SPEAKER_03: I I I think so many times Go in the club, get a Walnut Studio.
25:16
SPEAKER_03: So many times in general in aviation, it's it's a landscape for dreamers to come into and go, oh my gosh, the possibilities are endless.
25:24
SPEAKER_03: But you do have to have a real laser focus and cut your cloth accordingly.
25:28
SPEAKER_04: And yeah, because the the ten tendency is always to spend more and and stuff like that.
25:32
SPEAKER_04: But I mean there's been some some recent similar um things that have happened in the boom and bust kind of thing.
25:40
SPEAKER_04: We had a probably the most famous one, I think you're going to talk a little bit about, was is Vans.
25:45
SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, so obviously Vans uh filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in December 2023.
25:51
SPEAKER_03: And who and up until that point They were definitely boom, weren't they?
25:55
SPEAKER_03: They were they were absolutely boom.
25:56
SPEAKER_03: Uh they were riding the wave of um of COVID home building.
26:01
SPEAKER_03: Um they'd never sold so many aeroplanes.
26:04
SPEAKER_03: Um but it was against a bank they had some problems with building quick-build aeroplanes that they were trying to resolve.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: And then trying to fix that, they had some problems with trying to make parts faster using laser cutting.
26:19
SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that led to a situation where they had to replace a whole bunch of parts in kits.
26:24
SPEAKER_03: Uh, and then just they almost lost the plot a little bit in terms of the cost of the product they were putting out.
26:30
SPEAKER_03: There were the the price of the product they were putting out versus how much it was costing them to make.
26:35
SPEAKER_03: Uh real perfect storm, you know, they were, there's no question, world's most successful kit plane company, but still, you know, came to the edge.
26:45
SPEAKER_04: In chapter 11, which is kind of American protective bankruptcy in a way.
26:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and obviously, you know, they've as of May 2024, they've uh they've had their restructuring plan, that's all agreed, and they're operating fine and they've exited bankruptcy, but came very, very close.
27:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:02
SPEAKER_04: So that was a that was a boom and a simplify things, a boom and a bust, and hopefully a a boom, another boom on the way.
27:09
SPEAKER_03: And they've got you know, they've got their new the they've got the R V 15, which looks to as though it's going to be another success.
27:15
SPEAKER_03: But projects so often manufacturers end up with new projects, and new projects take a huge amount of money.
27:22
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
27:23
SPEAKER_04: And then well, I guess closer to home.
27:25
SPEAKER_04: Um Robin.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: Robin, yes.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: Well, Robin is uh in in in Robin's story, it's a it was a gentle beginning, if you like, because obviously they started in in 1957.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: Uh they started as Centre Est Aeronautique, C E A.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: You've got to remember those letters because they come back later in the story.
27:45
SPEAKER_02: Um and they were in France.
27:47
SPEAKER_04: Come up for letter.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: They were in France, began producing the Jodel Robin DR 100 series.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: Did you know that well, you probably knew this, Ed definitely knew this.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: DR stands for Delamontes and Delamonte and Robin, the two guys who were behind uh behind Jodell.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: Uh in 1970, he became Avion Pierre Robin, and they launched the DR 400.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: And that's the kind that's the model that really launched the company into what it is these days.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: In 88 Pierre Robin sold the company to Apex Aircraft.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: It's another name that's sort of been lurking around.
28:23
SPEAKER_02: They continued the production.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: But in 2008, Apex aircraft went into liquidation.
28:29
SPEAKER_02: They 2008 was a difficult year for everybody, but they were blaming the demise in particular of T-LERT engines, now part of Continental, of course.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: But T-LERT supplied turbo diesel engines which were fitted to many of the newer DR400s going out at that point, particularly in France, where they supplied a lot of flying schools.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: Um Apex was bought by CEAPR, C E A again.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: The PR stands for Pierre Robin, his name keeps coming back in.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: And they were set up ages before as a company to handle parts and support.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: So a distinct company.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: Because CEAPR, I've come back to the rescue a couple of times.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: So in 2011, they started making aircraft again, the DR 400, and it was all going reasonably okay, you know, bit a bit near the margins, I guess, through the years.
29:25
SPEAKER_02: But in 2022, they had some bonding issues on the uh the wings with the Was that the spa issue?
29:32
SPEAKER_02: That was the spa issue.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: Caused an emergency airworthiness directive.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: It was an A.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: And uh it kind of like it was cancelled eventually, because you know it was all solved.
29:41
SPEAKER_02: But that whole episode cost the company a lot of money, and it went into a safeguarding.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: Uh what's called safeguarding, a bit like chapter 11.
29:52
SPEAKER_04: The French version of it.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: French version, yeah.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: Chapter 11.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:56
SPEAKER_02: They said it went into receivership on the 12th of September 23 and into liquidation on the 16th of November that year.
30:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, but um being in France, it all went slightly differently, and the local courts put it into a sort of limbo situation.
30:12
SPEAKER_02: And and CEAPR came to the rescue again.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, because it had not been placed into this, it was outside of all this.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:21
SPEAKER_02: And uh rehired half the workforce and resumed production of Robin and CAP aircraft.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: And uh so they're back in business.
30:29
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they they certainly have a really checkered history.
30:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, uh it's there is no smooth say it's probably not really used, yeah, smooth sailing in in in an aviation context, but it it's not super easy.
30:43
SPEAKER_04: And I I want to talk about Cirrus.
30:44
SPEAKER_04: I mean Cyrums haven't been bust, um, but started by a couple of brothers back in 1984 in their in their parents' barn.
30:51
SPEAKER_04: There's Alan and Dale Glatmeyer.
30:53
SPEAKER_04: And back in 2001, they were sold to R Capita, which is a Bahrain-based financier, and so big cash influx.
31:02
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and then 10 years later, uh, they were sold to Keiger, China Aviation Industry General Aircraft, which is a subsidiary of Avic, which is Aviation Industry Corporation of China, effectively the Chinese state.
31:14
SPEAKER_04: And I was looking that up, you know, they got something like 500,000 people worldwide and 160 billion worth of assets, huge, huge, huge company.
31:21
SPEAKER_04: And and Currus is a booming company at the moment.
31:24
SPEAKER_04: You just look at the gamma shipments, and they sell more of their you know, best-selling aircraft in in its class by far.
31:30
SPEAKER_04: And they've been doing that consistently year after year after year, and they continually improve, and they have a whole load of people who buy airplanes and then buy more airplanes and buy more airplanes, many, many, many multiple buyers.
31:42
SPEAKER_04: Um, but it hasn't always been like that.
31:44
SPEAKER_04: I know there are times, particularly before some of the financing stuff, when they were kind of we've spoken to a couple of the execs at times and they said, it was a tough time.
31:53
SPEAKER_04: We'd come in on Monday and go, Are we still here?
31:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we are right.
31:55
SPEAKER_04: Let's let's go for another week.
31:57
SPEAKER_03: I guess particularly when they were like new air the the classic new aeroplane, the jet was a massive mass, you know, placed massive demands on them, didn't you?
32:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean if you remember back to the jet time, you had Cirrus developing the Cirrus jet, Diamond developing the Diamond Jet.
32:14
SPEAKER_04: Eclipse.
32:14
SPEAKER_04: Eclipse.
32:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
32:15
SPEAKER_04: But that was a twin jet, so I'm sorry, single engine jets.
32:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
32:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
32:19
SPEAKER_04: And Piper doing the Piper and the Piper jet.
32:21
SPEAKER_04: And so Piper had a sort of PA 46-ish fuselage with a big old engine on the back.
32:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
32:27
SPEAKER_04: And it wasn't the best looking aircraft ever.
32:31
SPEAKER_04: It flew, and last time I saw it, it was it was outside Son and Fon Museum in Lakeland, Florida.
32:36
SPEAKER_04: Um but that was that's a project that got sort of didn't quite make it.
32:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
32:41
SPEAKER_04: The Diamond Jet didn't quite make it, I think largely because it it had its air intakes quite low.
32:46
SPEAKER_04: Quite low on the side.
32:48
SPEAKER_04: And then obviously, you know, Si Sirius, because everyone knew that times were tough for everybody.
32:53
SPEAKER_04: And everyone was like, I just remember loads of press conferences.
32:56
SPEAKER_04: We got, when's the jet?
32:57
SPEAKER_04: When's the jet?
32:58
SPEAKER_04: When's the jet?
32:59
SPEAKER_04: You know, what are you gonna do?
33:00
SPEAKER_04: And and at the time the management go, like, the jet is being developed at the speed of cash.
33:04
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:05
SPEAKER_04: You know, we have to you know, rule number one of of running any company is you have to stay in business.
33:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:11
SPEAKER_04: Rule number two was you can do other stuff, but you if you're not in business, you can't do it.
33:15
SPEAKER_04: So Cirrus, they they were kind of like that, they were a booming company, but they went through some pretty tough times.
33:21
SPEAKER_04: Well, they were they and now it's a it's definitely a booming company.
33:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because they were they were delivering enormous numbers ahead of 2008, weren't they?
33:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:29
SPEAKER_03: And that in 2008 wiped out so many companies, but they rode that wave.
33:34
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think they were developing delivering over like two a day or something.
33:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:37
SPEAKER_04: It was about 800 a year, wasn't it?
33:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, even more then.
33:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:41
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, no, that was that and that was a whole operation.
33:44
SPEAKER_04: And that time they're delivering them all out of Duluth as well.
33:46
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:47
SPEAKER_04: So that that was really tough.
33:48
SPEAKER_04: But then there have been some others that have that have gone and and they're not forgotten, but they're not coming back anytime soon.
33:57
SPEAKER_03: The GA landscape is is littered with manufacturers that have some of some of them you will remember, some of them you will go, ooh, who's that?
34:06
SPEAKER_04: And and some of them that kind of aircraft I don't want to be too cruel about this.
34:11
SPEAKER_02: I know what you're gonna say.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: I know I know which name you're gonna come up with.
34:15
SPEAKER_04: Well, uh you maybe.
34:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:16
SPEAKER_04: You can you know, there's an aircraft.
34:18
SPEAKER_04: Some some aircraft have been around and have tried to die, but haven't quite haven't quite haven't quite managed it.
34:25
SPEAKER_04: They haven't managed they haven't managed boom.
34:28
SPEAKER_04: They haven't managed boom and they haven't got the they failed at boom and they failed at bust.
34:32
SPEAKER_04: But things like the icon A5 as an example.
34:35
SPEAKER_03: Well, that was a brand new airplane.
34:37
SPEAKER_04: Brand new airplane, needed new regulations for it.
34:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:40
SPEAKER_04: People standing up talking about how well it was gonna sell.
34:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:44
SPEAKER_04: Ridiculous numbers that anyone who's been in the industry and went at crazy price.
34:48
SPEAKER_03: Was it$120,000 for the yeah?
34:51
SPEAKER_04: They were taking they were taking deposits that were like five dollars, uh about five thousand dollars.
34:56
SPEAKER_04: I think they were.
34:57
SPEAKER_03: And they had thousand thousands of deposits, didn't they?
34:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
35:00
SPEAKER_04: Who did you think I was gonna say?
35:01
SPEAKER_02: You thought I was gonna say I I thought you were gonna say go Luscom.
35:05
SPEAKER_04: Luscom's a great example.
35:06
SPEAKER_04: I I know you love the Luscom.
35:08
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
35:08
SPEAKER_04: But at one point they were they were relaunching a four-seat Luscomb.
35:12
SPEAKER_04: I can't remember which 11 was the same.
35:13
SPEAKER_03: Well yeah, there was the Sedan.
35:15
SPEAKER_03: Sudan.
35:15
SPEAKER_03: Sudan.
35:16
SPEAKER_03: Sedan, and they made it nose wheel.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: But that's yeah, that died out.
35:19
SPEAKER_03: I mean, going back to going back to Icon, I that's the classic case when you've got a new aircraft and you go through the whole development cycle, and it's like we we say it's going to be this cost, but actually now it's gonna be it the the unit cost keeps going up and up, and you end up with these companies that and it's actually the practical way to get the cost-effective product is to go bust.
35:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because the amount I mean Eclipse is a good I mean Vernon Rabin, who's passed away very recently.
35:50
SPEAKER_04: Very recently, I think there was a sub-million dollar twin engine.
35:55
SPEAKER_04: It wasn't it.
35:56
SPEAKER_04: Certified.
35:57
SPEAKER_04: They had they they developed all sorts of interesting techniques.
36:00
SPEAKER_04: They had stick friction stir well.
36:02
SPEAKER_04: Friction stir well.
36:04
SPEAKER_04: Fire extinguisher engine, fire extinguisher stuff.
36:07
SPEAKER_04: And and while they were developing, or while they were certifying, yeah, they were generating funds from investors and stuff like that.
36:15
SPEAKER_04: When they had to start delivering those jets at a million bucks a time, it was like, well, that ain't at this point we're done.
36:21
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
36:22
SPEAKER_04: Um but then that that carried on for quite a bit, and there's you know, there's still remnants of various bits of that around at the time.
36:29
SPEAKER_04: You're CT, uh another design.
36:33
SPEAKER_04: Sorry.
36:33
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
36:33
SPEAKER_04: That I mean they had a big stand at Friedrichshawen this year.
36:37
SPEAKER_04: It's now a Chinese company.
36:38
SPEAKER_04: Well, that's they bought icon as well.
36:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: I mean, flight design you faced some unique problems, if you like, because they they try to I mean the CT was a huge selling micro light uh around the world.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: Was it their passing association with the truth during press conferences?
36:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna go there.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: No, but they were making uh they were trying they they had a big connection to China.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: Uh, there was a uh a company out there, Aero Jones called, where they tried to make make them in China for a while.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: So they had a really good product, the the Flight Design CT was a really strong product, and it is still a strong product, but they tried to expand and they had the ideas about producing the F2 and the F4.
37:18
SPEAKER_02: F4, yeah, and uh it all soaked up a lot of money.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: Added into all that um was the fact that they were manufacturing in Ukraine and a town called Kirchhoff, right on the uh front line of when the Russia invaded, and yeah, it was just a perfect storm for flight design.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: And uh, but Shangong came along and uh they they they they kind of turned it around manufacturing in Germany now and moving the company forward sensibly.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, one thing the Chinese do know how to do is put it's how to manufacture things.
37:50
SPEAKER_02: They're very good at systems.
37:51
SPEAKER_03: But every every time a company goes goes bust, you you you essentially clean slate, so you can't go, okay.
37:58
SPEAKER_03: Well, we don't have to have to worry about all of the hundreds of millions of development money.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you do have to persuade suppliers to work with you again.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: Again, yes.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: They might want cash up front.
38:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
38:08
SPEAKER_04: I mean P Piper, big name, doing well at the moment.
38:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
38:11
SPEAKER_04: Um but they have they have a long history.
38:13
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah.
38:14
SPEAKER_04: I think what was it when was it 89?
38:17
SPEAKER_03: Was that 81?
38:19
SPEAKER_03: I think they might have gone.
38:20
SPEAKER_03: I can't remember the exact but it was around that time.
38:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:24
SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, if you remember, they were working on the Swift Fury, weren't they?
38:28
SPEAKER_03: Do you remember that?
38:29
SPEAKER_03: Oh wow, yes.
38:30
SPEAKER_03: Which you flew.
38:31
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
38:33
SPEAKER_04: Not with Piper at the time.
38:34
SPEAKER_03: No, no, we we went and found that probably ten years ago.
38:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:39
SPEAKER_03: Uh but yeah, they were it if you remember, Stuart Miller at the time, who was uh Piper's CEO, is like, we're bringing back the Swift.
38:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:47
SPEAKER_03: Um and uh and he was uh again a force for spend probably spending beyond means.
38:55
SPEAKER_04: I mean I mean ultimately there's a there's a structural problem here, isn't there?
39:02
SPEAKER_04: The structural problem is, as I see it at least, German aviation market is a tiny, tiny market.
39:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
39:08
SPEAKER_04: The German aviation products are all pretty much handmade.
39:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
39:11
SPEAKER_04: Um there's a little bit of not handmade automation stuff, but it's a pretty much handmade.
39:16
SPEAKER_04: So you end up creating having to create really, really expensive products that are sold to a tiny market.
39:22
SPEAKER_04: I mean, we've seen in the comments of tons of our videos people going, I can't believe it.
39:26
SPEAKER_04: This microright is 300,000, it should be 50,000.
39:29
SPEAKER_04: If you can do that for 50,000, go do it, you'll do it.
39:32
SPEAKER_04: You'll sell a fortune.
39:33
SPEAKER_04: You won't you'll go bust doing it.
39:35
SPEAKER_04: But it's just too really, it's just too hard.
39:38
SPEAKER_03: The physical cost of engine and materials and avionics and labour and a factory.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: And don't forget the bureaucracy.
39:46
SPEAKER_02: There's a change.
39:48
SPEAKER_04: I mean, yeah, just a little counter-through.
39:49
SPEAKER_04: We've got Enstrom.
39:50
SPEAKER_04: They think they're not remember if they're back at the moment.
39:53
SPEAKER_04: They are back.
39:54
SPEAKER_04: They are back at the moment.
39:55
SPEAKER_04: They went and they came back.
39:56
SPEAKER_04: Mooney has been and gone a couple of times, been up and down more often than a 152 inner circuit.
40:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:02
SPEAKER_03: And again, do you remember Mooney had the um they came up with that M10 cadet, the three-seat diesel-powered trainer that was composite.
40:12
SPEAKER_04: Which is a little bit like the Piper Cadet now, which is again a three-seater factory only.
40:18
SPEAKER_03: But you can imagine that uh that Piper, you know, Piper have gone, let's take a product that we have and let's make it very big.
40:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:25
SPEAKER_03: It's like every time when design teams go, We've got this great idea.
40:30
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
40:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
40:31
SPEAKER_04: Well, Stoddard Hamilton.
40:33
SPEAKER_04: Great aircraft.
40:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, builder of the glass airs and the glass star.
40:37
SPEAKER_03: They they they were a a big force in the nineties.
40:41
SPEAKER_03: But by the noughties.
40:43
SPEAKER_04: By the naughs, yeah.
40:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
40:45
SPEAKER_04: Do you remember the Addams, the Adams aircraft industry?
40:47
SPEAKER_04: Oh, the twin boom.
40:48
SPEAKER_04: Not Adams the pilot shop.
40:49
SPEAKER_04: No.
40:49
SPEAKER_04: Twin boom.
40:50
SPEAKER_04: Uh Twin Boom.
40:51
SPEAKER_04: They started with like a 337 prop.
40:53
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
40:53
SPEAKER_04: Twin boom.
40:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
40:54
SPEAKER_04: Push-pull.
40:55
SPEAKER_04: And then everyone was doing the jets.
40:56
SPEAKER_03: They were just a joke.
40:57
SPEAKER_03: Let's make a jet.
40:58
SPEAKER_03: Put some jets on, quickly.
41:00
SPEAKER_03: That was Europa closer to home.
41:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Europa went bust.
41:04
SPEAKER_03: Again, it does it seemed like they had it all in the back.
41:07
SPEAKER_03: Massive success.
41:08
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean Ivan Shaw, bit of a stereotype, very canny Yorkshireman, very careful, ran a very, very, very tight ship.
41:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:15
SPEAKER_04: So the margins are tiny.
41:17
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:17
SPEAKER_04: And then unfortunately, you know, Ivan Shaw moved on.
41:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:22
SPEAKER_04: Which I guess takes us to a couple of other bits and pieces later.
41:26
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah.
41:26
SPEAKER_04: Rushmeyer Grob went at some stage.
41:29
SPEAKER_03: There's a there's a whole history of it.
41:31
SPEAKER_03: Rush uh Rushmeyer, who remembers the Rushmeyer?
41:34
SPEAKER_03: Me.
41:34
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
41:35
SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah.
41:35
SPEAKER_03: It was um imagine wow, it was all composite.
41:39
SPEAKER_03: It was beautiful, wasn't it?
41:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was.
41:40
SPEAKER_03: And it was going to be powered by the Porsche engine at one time.
41:44
SPEAKER_03: Um but again that they went they eventually went bust.
41:47
SPEAKER_03: And if they made 40 or 50 aeroplanes, I'll be surprised.
41:52
SPEAKER_03: So um and don't forget, uh you remember when the UK had the ARV Super 2, when Richard Noble says I I will revolutionize the flight training world.
42:02
SPEAKER_03: Um Classic Case, a great idea.
42:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:04
SPEAKER_03: And the airplane flies remarkably well, but new airframe, new engine, it had the Hewland two-stroke.
42:10
SPEAKER_02: And I think there were pro there were so many problems with the Hewland two-stroke that Well it's always difficult when you've when you've invent a new airframe and you invent a new power plant.
42:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:20
SPEAKER_03: Like so many people say, never the never two at once.
42:23
SPEAKER_03: No.
42:24
SPEAKER_03: Um so uh and imagine what maybe the ARV says.
42:28
SPEAKER_03: It's a big hill to climb.
42:29
SPEAKER_03: It is Yeah, really, really big.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: So um But you've mentioned about supposing the ARV was relaunched with a ro or had a Rotex engine available.
42:38
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't it was only a few years later that the 912 came out.
42:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:42
SPEAKER_03: And you imagine if then the ARV had come along at the same time as the Rotex, would that would have been a very different story?
42:49
SPEAKER_03: Who knows?
42:50
SPEAKER_03: Right.
42:56
SPEAKER_04: Midwest Richard Fuel Fuel Motor that was out of Gloucester.
43:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
43:02
SPEAKER_04: Um we got to the hold and didn't didn't pass the pre the checks, and we taxed it back.
43:07
SPEAKER_04: Right.
43:08
SPEAKER_04: That's why you do your checks.
43:09
SPEAKER_04: That's why you do your checks.
43:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so there's a whole but there's also a couple of names that people wouldn't expect.
43:15
SPEAKER_04: We spoke earlier, I spoke earlier about some names that you wouldn't expect in there.
43:18
SPEAKER_04: There are a couple of big, big names of people who developed German aviation aircraft who took a look at it, took a look at the manufacturing challenges and regulatory challenges.
43:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no.
43:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I know there was um so Honda.
43:33
SPEAKER_03: Honda had two aircraft projects.
43:36
SPEAKER_03: Um and both of those times, they've gone nope.
43:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, this is not the Honda Jet here.
43:42
SPEAKER_03: No, no, this was this is this was piston powered.
43:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:45
SPEAKER_03: Um and uh Toyota.
43:46
SPEAKER_03: Toyota Toyota probably got the closest in terms of a of a newcomer because they had their Lexus V6 engine, which was certified.
43:55
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
43:55
SPEAKER_03: Astonishing thing.
43:57
SPEAKER_03: And they they got uh scaled composites to create what looked like was gonna be a a d uh just an absolute bonanza annihilator.
44:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
44:05
SPEAKER_03: And it was all like, oh wow, they've got an amazing project.
44:09
SPEAKER_03: But but then Toyota went, no.
44:12
SPEAKER_04: Because I guess they just couldn't see it would deliver in the numbers that anything like in Toyota's world, you know, someone goes, oh it was an amazingly busy yeah we sold 800 they'll go No.
44:24
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
44:25
SPEAKER_03: In a week yeah yeah.
44:27
SPEAKER_03: So and and I guess that's uh maybe in other segments of industry they they don't have the do do you think aviation has a like a special rose tint sometimes where people believe anything is possible.
44:40
SPEAKER_04: Aviation, pubs, airlines, restaurants, boats I don't know anything about but probably boats.
44:46
SPEAKER_04: They they're kind of all passion industries for stuff in it.
44:51
SPEAKER_04: They're all hard.
44:52
SPEAKER_04: Yeah they're hard and and not very kind to someone who comes in with just the passion.
44:57
SPEAKER_02: Well if you've got the passion and you happen to have a a a small fortune a big fortune perhaps there is an opportunity.
45:03
SPEAKER_02: Just come on the market actually.
45:04
SPEAKER_02: But wait.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: Well yes we talked about Europa the next project to come out of the Europa was the Liberty XL2.
45:13
SPEAKER_02: Yes Ivan went to America Ivan went to America and uh the the XL2 was the certified version of the Europa there were differences there were uh two changes to it but it's uh that was a it was a nice little aircraft I have to say it's probably a bit small in the flight trading world because yeah these days especially in America people are big again that it was a that was an airplane because they I don't think they ever went bust but it just wasn't a success was it no it wasn't but it's back on the market well at least what's back on the market is a broker in the States is advertising uh the Liberty XL2 type certificate you don't get the assets or the tools or the jigs you've got to invest in all that but it's he makes a very valid point that it costs between$150 and$200 million to develop and certify a small light aircraft.
46:03
SPEAKER_02: In fact here's one just waiting to waiting to go here's some paperwork here's one we made here's one we made earlier.
46:11
SPEAKER_03: And again but that I think so often that's the hook isn't it people go wait I can own an aircraft company that's right for so little money.
46:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah well you will have so little money left at the end of it as well.
46:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah I don't I I will eat my flyer hat if someone brings me the XL2 as a certified production aircraft.
46:32
SPEAKER_03: I would be very surprised but you never know you never know it might happen.
46:36
SPEAKER_03: I know have we yes uh tell us in the comments have we missed anybody that you think you're just shouting at the monitor right now going what about so and so about so yeah you forgot those.
46:45
SPEAKER_03: But yeah boo boom and bust and we celebrate the booms.
46:49
SPEAKER_03: We do the dreamers.
46:51
SPEAKER_02: We do yeah okay so it's time for uh what caught your eye uh Dave what was it for you what caught my eye this week was an announcement by Robinson helicopter that they've uh signed a deal with a company called Cooler Technologies to electrify the R66 helicopter that's their bigger one the turbine one yeah um but it reminded me that uh Robinson already have flown an electric R44 powered by hydrogen fuel cells is that AI no that's not AI Well hang on a second is it's it's not April the first anymore is it?
47:27
SPEAKER_02: We're in May This actually flew last year and those those just funny little things on the side the nay cells they're not turbofans or jets or anything like that.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: That's where they where they have the uh thermal management system for the uh for the hydrogen fuel cells what yeah so uh anyway they're still working on this and they're planning an STVC conversion for it to take an existing R66 and fit it with the hydrogen fuel cell technology they're planning an STC for 2030 but they get you know it's interesting Robinson are going down two routes they're determined to electrify their their helicopters or have an electric version available so they're going down the battery route or they're going down this route the hydrogen fuel cell I and Robinson are they are they are they're real steady force aren't they?
48:16
SPEAKER_03: And if you I was surprised recently because they came out with the um with the the the autonomous version of the R66.
48:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah uh and actually uh I when you dig into it Robinson have got a are really going heavily into drones and all sorts aren't they?
48:29
SPEAKER_04: Well they they I they they look at the future and see where it's heading yeah because they're going like everyone's got billions of pounds to develop these things that do exactly what our aircraft do already we'll have a bit of that very much.
48:43
SPEAKER_04: I I have to say looking at that though Frank Robinson rest in peace has got to be is spinning around his rotor spinning around and going interesting stuff.
48:55
SPEAKER_03: So uh Ian what did you find?
48:57
SPEAKER_04: Well I I mean I I didn't find an airplane here but I can't we all know and we all get sad when we lose airfields and a little while ago we lost a place uh just down Swindon called Redlands used to be a bit of a parachute centre and stuff like that and that was taken over and and and has been turned itself into a building site and houses are being developed there but it's okay they're keeping the spirit of aviation alive.
49:20
SPEAKER_04: So we've got some road signs.
49:23
SPEAKER_04: Drop drop zone drop zone we've got hangar field okay we've got oh what we've got Icarus place Icarus place Icarus place for the C4.
49:37
SPEAKER_03: We've got Jabaro close and then finally Zephyr Lane Oh Zephyr what's Zephyr I can think of Ford Zephyr but I can't think of any aeroplane Zephyr.
49:49
SPEAKER_03: Zephyr Hills Zephyr Hills is a big parachute place in Florida Oh right okay I don't know if that's how it goes I I d I would you be dis I it' I I I fear for my standing in the Jabro community but would you be un unhappy living in a house on Jabro Way?
50:06
SPEAKER_03: Close Jabroo clothes.
50:07
SPEAKER_03: Jabroo close for legal reasons I shall say no more.
50:14
SPEAKER_04: So I mean a bit sad but it gave it gave me in fact there's a place near me that used to be the old RAF Milksham that's also also got lots of Blenheim clothes and stuff like that.
50:26
SPEAKER_04: No.
50:27
SPEAKER_03: It was a sim centre yes yeah and that leaves me and uh I was rem so Facebook reminded me of an aircraft project that I saw for sale ten years ago and posted about at the time and it might be the most insane personal twin that I have ever that was ever imagined.
50:44
SPEAKER_03: It's like someone saw the pond racer and said hold my beer now you might be looking at this render thinking well that was never Bill and you'd be wrong because this became a real aircraft.
50:56
SPEAKER_03: Someone actually went let's make this they were intending to go racing in it and it is mad.
51:02
SPEAKER_03: It was created by a chap called Bill Hooser who ran a company called Oriontech in Port Angeles in Washington.
51:08
SPEAKER_03: It was powered by two 450 Lycoming TSI 0720s and look at this thing it's just absolutely insane.
51:18
SPEAKER_03: N number on it was N666 Delta number truly the number of the beast they actually got as far as taxi testing this high speed taxi testing I would imagine those taxi tests were utterly terrifying and I don't believe it ever flew.
51:35
SPEAKER_03: One internet commenter said is VMC the same speed as VNE Yeah probably sadly the aircraft was it there were no takers for it um never flew.
51:47
SPEAKER_03: It was advertised on barnstormers in 2016 um no one was interested in continuing the project and um uh internet rumors suggest it ended its days um being sold for parts on Craigslist.
51:59
SPEAKER_03: All right I know but look at it's just I mean that's that's insane twin from the mind of a child.
52:07
SPEAKER_03: It is could I pilot actually see anything forward from that I would say you don't want to see anything because it will be utterly terrifying.
52:15
SPEAKER_04: I mean I guess you know it's gonna it it's per if its purpose was purely to go to go fast at Reno air races, yeah.
52:23
SPEAKER_04: Then you could kind of put up with all sorts can't you for that for the glory.
52:27
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
52:28
SPEAKER_04: But um otherwise yeah wouldn't wouldn't do well in the twin training market would it?
52:33
SPEAKER_03: No Can you imagine a flight a f a flight school full of full of green green new ATPLs going here we go where's my diamond DA42?
52:44
SPEAKER_02: No sorry you're having this Wow looks amazing yeah okay well there you go so events events yep uh this weekend at the 9th and 10th was supposed to be Poolie's air day at Compton Abbas um apparently because of the weather forecast it's been postponed do you know what it's be postponed to 19th and 20th of September.
53:05
SPEAKER_02: Plenty of time to replan yeah it's because Comton Abbas is a very busy airfield with lots of events on.
53:12
SPEAKER_02: Yep that was the first weekend they could get um but this weekend if the weather plays ball Sunday the 10th there's a Shuttleworth season premier air show fantastic yep 16th of Saturday the 16th of May Carnal 50th anniversary flying possibly the biggest event of the month is um Friday 22nd of May the international celebration of chipmunks at uh Wolverhampton Hate Me Green uh 23 to 25 May at Spanfield at Sandale Near Isle of Wyatt also on Saturday it's Vintage Pipers at Goodwood.
53:47
SPEAKER_02: Well I looked at that and I was thinking about mentioning that but it it Goodwood says it's Goodwood members only unless they haven't told the Vintage Pipers Aircraft Club yeah there's definitely a vintage piper flying going on.
53:59
SPEAKER_02: Well there is yes but they said but according to Goodwood it's members only could end.
54:03
SPEAKER_03: Oh okay right maybe that's people who go by road to look at all the vintage pipers I suspect that's probably what that is if you've got a vintage piper you can fly to Goodwood if you get there don't say Ian said I could check it out for yourself first on that note thank you very much team thank you very much for watching please join the flyer club flyer.co.uk forward slash membership membership it's just six pounds a month and it's a bargain um have a great one have a good weekend and we'll see you next week thank you bye join the Flyer Club and be part of the UK's biggest GA community save hundreds of pounds with freelancing vouchers watch expert led webinars and access all the online content on flyer.co.uk all this and more from just six pounds per month or 62 pounds for the full year.
54:54
SPEAKER_03: Join today at flyer.co.uk forward slash membership