Latest / 1 to 100 / E21: Why Your Competitors Make You Better with Eli Weiss

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E21: Why Your Competitors Make You Better with Eli Weiss · 1 to 100

0:00
Did PJ get back to you? He didn't get back to me, but PJ
0:04
and judge me actually liked all of my comments.
0:07
OK, cool. By the way, I will you know what
0:10
I you know, I will say game recognize game.
0:14
He knew exactly what he was doing.
0:16
Oh. Definitely did.
0:21
Also I did I'd messaged him too. I was like, hey dude, you got to
0:24
come on the on the pod. But he has not replied, so
0:27
hopefully he's. Like I've been chatting with
0:30
him. He's he's coming on.
0:31
I think I've been in already for like mid-september.
0:35
Yeah, he's he's totally chill for shop.
0:37
He's he's not taking it seriously.
0:40
Yeah. So Eli and I are technically
0:42
competitors these days, and then PJ and I obviously are also
0:47
technically competitors these days.
0:49
Dude, you know what I I had and Eli, I'm curious how you think
0:52
about this and Jeremiah, how you think about this.
0:55
But every time I talk to anyone who is like trying to actually
1:01
make it like very big, the number one thing I hear them say
1:06
is it is bad news if my competitors do badly.
1:11
Like, all they want to hear is that their competitors are doing
1:15
really well because, like, they know that what that means is the
1:21
market is getting bigger. Yeah.
1:24
And like, actually that's the only signal that ends up
1:26
mattering. But anyway, that's, that's like,
1:28
I don't know how you guys all think about that, but.
1:32
Yeah, I agree with that concept in principle, but I think in
1:36
action you should hate the with your guts like you're
1:40
compositing. That's a Michael Jordan energy.
1:42
No, like I really, no, like I, I think I've mentioned this
1:45
before, but like the way I really think about this, very
1:48
simply, if you're building a company, you're trading your
1:51
time for an outcome and you're the, the closest thing you can
2:00
relate to your life is time and your life is finite.
2:03
So if anybody is trying to make that outcome either smaller or
2:07
take a piece of that outcome, they're essentially taking your
2:10
life away from you. And if someone was trying to
2:13
kill you, you would fight back with everything you had.
2:16
And so like I think from simple, just like concepts, as you're
2:20
building a company, you're looking for an outcome, anyone
2:23
try to take a piece of that is taking a piece of your life and
2:25
you should treat it as such. Can I take the other side?
2:28
Can we start off spicy? Can I take the the other side of
2:31
somebody that's not a founder or somebody that's trading their
2:34
time for a paycheck? I think that's so two things.
2:36
So I think, you know, early days of Lollipop, we were just
2:40
lollipop, the only functional soda trying to create a category
2:42
and it was near impossible. Like nobody wants to hear about
2:45
a fucking beverage for $4. And you get like, hey, this is
2:49
health aide but different, which isn't fun.
2:52
Poppy actually started as mother beverage in a glass bottle on
2:55
Shark Tank. It went from mother beverage to
2:59
Poppy and suddenly we're on the market.
3:00
Without Poppy, lollipop wouldn't be lollipop without Coke,
3:05
without Pepsi, there would be no Coke to the way we see it today.
3:08
So I think there's like there's that.
3:10
The second piece, like on trading, the outcome is like the
3:12
outcome for I think 7080% of the population is like a decent
3:16
life, maybe some happiness, maybe some kids, a little
3:19
vacation. And the difference between like
3:22
do you sell your business for 100 or 200 million?
3:25
I don't know many people that that really matters in the in
3:28
the larger scheme of things. So I think it's like push and
3:30
pull, right? Like do I want Poppy to lose
3:32
miserably? Yes, to some extent, but.
3:37
You lollipop specifically though in this context, not to just
3:40
anybody, right? Like you want to be the winner,
3:43
but it doesn't mean like for sure like #2 is a.
3:46
Bad I I think this is like one of those like, yes, what is it
3:50
called? Improv?
3:51
Like improv comedy yes. And situations where it's like
3:57
the competition existing actually does mean that your
4:00
outcome is going to get bigger and them existing means that you
4:06
also want to beat them. Yeah right.
4:11
Like that's that's I mean, I think right.
4:13
Like I think it's actually oh wow.
4:17
OK how long maybe maybe let me ask it this way.
4:22
How long do you want to be the only player for?
4:27
Like let's assume that at some point you want competition.
4:30
I guess the question is how long do you want to be the create the
4:33
category? So this like Lollipop is a great
4:35
exact. I don't know how long Lollipop
4:36
was a category creator for, but how long do you want to be in
4:39
that position before which competition starts to show up?
4:43
I. Don't think you would be that
4:45
long. I don't think that's a like a
4:47
great spot to be, to be honest. I mean, it really depends.
4:52
Yeah. Like, is it something in which,
4:55
like, you could create some sort of like version of a monopoly?
4:58
And I think the answer is yes. It's like, yeah, I could do that
5:02
for sure. You know, like, you know, the
5:05
only person selling water in the deserts, Like you don't want
5:08
anyone else to show up with a truck of water.
5:10
Like, you know, it really depends on the market size and
5:14
like the products and all that. Like another like in that case,
5:18
like someone's throwing out water doesn't like this is this
5:20
is a good. Example though because like.
5:22
Let's assume. Well, like, do you actually
5:25
selling water in a desert? Nobody's there?
5:28
Like, I think you're actually better off though.
5:29
Assuming that there. Are people, yeah.
5:32
But like I, I think like in real world examples, this is how it
5:35
works, right? Like there's nobody in the
5:37
desert. So you don't want to be the guy
5:38
selling water in the desert. You're better off being in like
5:40
the middle of Times Square with everybody else, their little
5:43
food carts and stuff selling water.
5:44
You're probably going to make more money that.
5:45
Way I, I, I think like, let's just say there's other people
5:47
like if the water gets sufficiently precious, someone
5:51
else is going to start selling well, like, and, and I, I, I
5:54
guess like, let's assume capitalism will, will like do
5:57
its thing, right? So it's like impossible to like
6:01
maintain a monopoly. Let's let's just assume that
6:06
right at which, which because like, I think that's like
6:08
functionally how it works for basically all of us, right?
6:11
Like how I, I guess like how long?
6:15
Like what is the ideal amount of time?
6:17
Is it like, is it 2 months? Is it six months?
6:20
Is it 2 years? Basically it's some number
6:24
between two months and four years like like.
6:28
I don't know, I don't, I don't know has anything to do with
6:30
time. Like I think it's more like,
6:32
let's just say you built a business based on a thesis and
6:34
based on where we want to get. And if you were fulfilling your
6:37
like growth, you know, like projections and KPIs in a way
6:41
that you didn't need a ton of like, let's call it market
6:44
tailwinds to work in your favor. Like you essentially want it
6:47
when you'd like the business potentially is plateauing.
6:49
And like you need more people that want healthy soda than was
6:53
previous, you know, where like you want that sort of like
6:55
market demands to like be a tailwind or something.
6:59
But you're saying that back to sorry?
7:02
No, go ahead. I'm saying like, if we take that
7:04
back to SAS for a second, what does and and we'll get to judge
7:07
me in a second because I want to give us a chance to get back
7:10
into the heat. But but if we took like fulfill,
7:13
look at fulfill versus the incumbent.
7:16
What is what is the incumbent fall asleep at night thinking
7:19
like, God damn, I wish fulfill was more expensive or like I
7:22
wish fulfill sucked. Or do they go to sleep at night
7:24
being like, OK, now there's something for the bottom of the,
7:26
you know, for the lower part of the ecosystem and we'll still be
7:28
a zillion dollar company. Like I think minus Slack, which
7:31
I think is like an anomaly that nobody else can for some reason,
7:34
nobody else can take market share like Yapo does better
7:37
because judge me exists, like full stop.
7:40
And we can talk about like Oquendo and Stamped and we can
7:44
talk about the other players. But I think like you, you always
7:46
want to judge me. And the same reason why, like
7:49
Shopify subscriptions didn't piss off stay AI or Skio or
7:53
recharge. But I do think there's like a
7:55
slightly different, you know, different, different play here
8:00
on the South side. I think this applies to the
8:02
e-commerce businesses we serve as well.
8:03
There's so much animosity for the Team U, the Amazon machine,
8:07
but it's like this is incredible for the market that needs like a
8:11
pair of trainers for like 3 bucks.
8:13
And sure they might like melt in the rain, but like how awesome
8:16
is it that trainers that suck exist for 3 bucks and if you
8:20
spend to win you might get them for free?
8:22
This is, I mean, like maybe I think for I think the e-commerce
8:25
category like there is, but to be fair, like a lot of the time
8:28
that this is just like a bad business, right?
8:30
But like, I don't know if you ever hung out with e-commerce
8:32
dudes that aren't like the face of their brand, the one thing
8:36
they don't want to tell you is what the fuck you're selling
8:38
online. Because like a lot of these
8:41
products do have like limited Tam and, and they are trends and
8:45
they are very seasonal and things like that.
8:47
And so like a market entrance on like a very seasonal business or
8:52
something like that at the wrong time can be like pretty
8:56
catastrophic. Yeah, exactly.
8:59
I think what you're saying is absent the expansion of Tam,
9:02
which is not guaranteed, competition is bad for your
9:04
business. Yeah, yeah.
9:07
The one thing I love about competition is that I think it
9:09
does push you to make better products faster, which is like
9:12
the thing that I really like about it.
9:13
But the energy that I approach that with is like piss and
9:17
vinegar. Like, I mean, like, I mean, you
9:20
said Michael Jordan, but like anybody watch that?
9:22
Like I believe that that's a better way to live your life.
9:24
Like like 100%. It makes it more like a movie.
9:27
It makes it more like there's actually something on the line.
9:30
And like, living without something on the line is like
9:32
silly. So it's like mine is like, I
9:34
just believe you might as well be pretty shrewd with that type
9:38
of stuff. I was just going to ask Eli a
9:40
follow up around the like judge me existing is better for Yapo
9:47
to like how much ever you can talk about it.
9:49
How do you how do you guys think about that?
9:53
Like what is the mechanism by which that actually
10:01
operationally has an impact to how the company is run
10:05
internally? So a couple of things.
10:08
I mean, I think you, you speak to Tom or you'll speak to
10:10
anyone. They'll tell you that the last
10:12
10 years, like everyone from Oquendo to smile to judge me
10:16
made Yapo be better. Now, like zoom out 10 years ago,
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you know, Yapo started bizarre voice was the was the expensive
10:24
one, right. And everyone's like, these guys
10:25
are terrible and then trustpilot's terrible and you
10:28
kind of go through this evolution and then Yapo becomes
10:30
the bad guy and then, you know, like it.
10:31
And then Oquendo was like, Oh my God, they're expensive now.
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And now judge me is like the Lord and savior.
10:35
But you see this in every category, right where it's like,
10:38
you know, gorgeous was the cheap version of Zendesk and now like
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you can come slay for $0.99. I just don't like that's going
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to happen in every category. And, and the race to the bottom
10:49
creates there's two now there's two now there's like a 999 set
10:53
it and forget it. This will do great things.
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And then there's like $1000 a month with all the bells and
10:58
whistles. Now the the problem, it's not a
11:00
problem, but like the the challenge for yacht PO is when
11:03
judge me performs incredibly well and when they will then
11:07
take like you're like, oh, we have tik toks indication and and
11:10
judge me. He's like, well, we do too, and
11:12
we have, you know, like we have we have great support.
11:15
Will we do too? And I think that's just
11:17
capitalism, right? Like that pushes us to create
11:19
better products. Now, in the team who example,
11:21
yes, like obviously customers don't want something that they
11:23
wear in the rain and it and it disappears.
11:26
But like when we win deals against like a judge me, we're
11:30
winning because people are looking for a more enterprise
11:32
level play with better bells and whistles.
11:34
We will, you know, like if somebody's going to Clavio for
11:37
reviews, they're generally not thinking like, do I go Clavio or
11:40
Yuppo, right? Like, so I think it's like where
11:43
what customers are looking for, what problem they're trying to
11:45
solve in general. Like if you asked Homer three
11:47
years ago, he'd be like, we're kind of fucked, right?
11:48
Like commoditization, like reviews are going to be free.
11:51
Josh in his basement can now vibe code reviews.
11:54
Josh is still in his mom's basement.
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He still hasn't vibe coded reviews.
11:57
He's still paying 999 for for judge me.
12:00
The, the, the point is that like, I think as the output
12:02
continues to be better, yes, like we need to constantly
12:06
evolve to make sure that we're pricing fair to market value.
12:09
We're showing the value that we're pricing at.
12:12
It's like anything else, right? Like if a hot dog is $1.50 at
12:15
Costco, why does everyone go to Costco to get hot dogs?
12:17
Well, you're just not always looking for a Costco hot dog.
12:20
But I think it's, it's like a, it's obviously a challenge that
12:23
makes the oppo better. I think the fun part has been
12:25
like when you see like you're like, oh, Kendo's winning
12:27
because commoditization. And then you look at an Oquendo
12:29
bill and it's $40,000. That's not, that's not them
12:33
winning on commoditization. That's them winning because
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they're building better products.
12:37
Maybe. And maybe we have to do better.
12:38
Maybe they're marketing better. Maybe the video saying that
12:41
Yapo's marketing is too good, man.
12:43
Maybe in an alternate world that did something for somebody.
12:45
I, I personally don't think so, but I think it's like it's game
12:47
on, right? Like I, I hated Poppy and wanted
12:50
them to die a miserable death, even though I gained nothing
12:53
from Lollipop because I do like the game and I like competing.
12:56
But I do think like the fun part is like game on, like judge me
12:59
should decrease the price of $5 and make it double as good.
13:04
I'm all for that cut, that cut that put at the beginning of the
13:07
podcast get us all in trouble again.
13:10
Yeah, exactly. Then you're then there's going
13:12
to be a clip of me saying like a $4 million a year business is
13:17
like, you know, and then the whole thing is going to spiral
13:20
all over again and then people are going to worry about how
13:22
much money I make from non bootstrapping and yadda yadda.
13:25
So. Here we go.
13:26
I think, but something you briefly touched on there that
13:30
actually is really important, Eli is like preference at the
13:33
end of the day matters. And then if you're in a large
13:36
enough market, there is always room for people offering a
13:41
different flavor of product. And so like reviews as a
13:44
category is big enough in that regard.
13:46
And you just mentioned the marketing thing.
13:48
They're legitimately are people that will look at really good
13:51
clean marketing from Yapo and say they make too much money, I
13:54
don't want to go work with them, right?
13:55
Like that's, that can be a thing.
13:57
Now, obviously that's a small subset of the market, but it's
14:00
going to be a subset of the market.
14:02
That's like, screw SAS. It should never cost more than
14:04
this. I'm going to go spend X money on
14:06
this, right. You like the salesperson you
14:09
talk to you like a specific feature, like optionality
14:12
actually is a good thing. I think the trick is you have to
14:15
understand who you're serving. You have to try to serve those
14:19
people very well and you have to run your business in a way that
14:22
is operationally viable within the constraints of what you're
14:25
trying to build. So like that's, you know, an
14:30
example of that. We literally are turning off our
14:32
free plan at Stamps and we told those people to go to judge me.
14:35
Like that's literally in the e-mail it says, hey, they have a
14:39
great free plan. I think you'll like it.
14:42
Go check it out. Like that was our, that was our,
14:46
the comms to our merchants. And that's what.
14:47
We. But can we like?
14:49
Can we also? Think of that.
14:53
It's not like that felt that felt weird, but yeah.
14:57
But can we also talk about that like the, the, the second piece
15:01
is like the, the brand, right? Like the, you know, we had
15:03
somebody commenting like Yapo spent $1,000,000 on their walk
15:06
away campaign. And I'm like, are you fucking
15:07
crazy? Like that campaign, including
15:09
all the free sneakers was probably 20 grand.
15:11
Like that was all AI. But I do think, like brand,
15:14
right? But brand is like, so important.
15:16
Like, I think like Zach is a great example of the people that
15:19
would use his tool really, really appreciate the kind of
15:23
marketing and the kind of videos he creates, right?
15:25
Like, these are creatives like him sitting behind the camera
15:28
talking like, like Steve Jobs is what those people are looking
15:30
for. Now, judge me.
15:31
If they made an ad like that, I think people would be like, get
15:35
back into the studio and do something different.
15:38
So I think it also depends, right?
15:39
Like if we're selling to Cody or Kendo, Yeah.
15:42
They don't want to see some janky ass thing.
15:45
They want something that will keep live through BFCM.
15:47
So I think like brand, we we tend to like no, no like people
15:51
actually deeply understand why Clavio's better.
15:53
I spoke to hundreds of people in the last two years about e-mail.
15:56
They will say no, Clavio's deliverability is better.
15:58
Turns out it was false. Like our deliverability was fine
16:00
on the oppo side. Like I think people genuinely
16:02
don't have a clue I'm. Going to switch to the up.
16:04
One exactly. Walk away.
16:07
People genuinely don't have a clue as to what inferma is
16:10
different than X, different than Y or Y.
16:12
Like every salesperson is incentivized to say whatever the
16:16
fuck they think of to close the deal.
16:18
They will badmouth everyone. Like I hear things like oh kendo
16:20
or X is Y is better than Z and I'm like this is false.
16:23
The person that's saying that is X yapo.
16:25
They know exactly which buttons suppress.
16:27
It's not even true. But obviously a brand is so
16:29
important. Like I want to use the tool that
16:31
X uses more than product. Sorry.
16:39
Yeah, dude, you're not going to hear disagreement from me.
16:45
You, you want to know something that I found kind of funny now.
16:48
Now I feel like I'm just going to get flamed again.
16:51
But one of the one of the people who somehow felt like this thing
16:58
that happened on Twitter was a big controversy.
17:03
They plotted this graph of like how technology prices like goes
17:06
down over time. And I was just like curious and
17:12
I just like was wondering like what is the price of an iPhone
17:14
over time? And it has actually only gone up
17:17
right? And does every Does everybody
17:19
here have an iPhone or? No, I don't.
17:23
That's a brand choice. I don't want to be an iPhone
17:25
guy. Ah, OK.
17:27
Well, OK. Yes, Jeremiah.
17:29
Well. Based on what?
17:30
I could buy one if I wanted to. I always want to hear this, why
17:37
people choose Android over iPhone.
17:39
Me. Yeah, yeah.
17:40
Like what is the decision tree? Dude, OK, so I was actually a
17:43
flip phone guy. I was like one of the last of
17:46
the flip phone people. So literally up until like 3
17:50
years ago when I started needing apps for like kids things and
17:54
stuff like that. Like I needed apps in order to
17:56
function in my daily life. That's when I switched to having
17:59
an Android and I was like, I am not.
18:03
I'm not like a I'm a more technical person.
18:06
I'm more like, I like simple things.
18:09
I like cheap things. I value price a lot.
18:11
So I want to spend $200 on a phone.
18:14
Even if I could spend $1000 on a phone, I don't want to do that.
18:19
Like I'm very opposed to that. I didn't even use that.
18:21
I would never use a Mac. Like I would not buy a Mac.
18:24
I only use one because we're. Use when you're on Windows.
18:27
No, I'm on a Mac, but it's because work will pay for it.
18:31
So it's like like I'm just like, I'm a value oriented buyer.
18:36
And so like I look at it and I'm like, same specs.
18:39
And it's funny because like now that I use a Mac, I know this
18:41
isn't true, right? There's actually like a, a Macs
18:44
are actually meaningful, meaningfully better than Windows
18:47
in my opinion, because you get the same, like you get the same
18:50
specs. And I'm like, oh, I can spend
18:52
700 bucks on that. It would cost me $2500 on a Mac.
18:54
Now the reality is I don't know, like if I spent $2500 on both,
18:59
it's probably similar, but that $700.00 machine, it really is
19:01
not as good as the $2500 Mac. So yeah, it's a for me, it's
19:06
like AI don't know, like I, I bought a new car and I felt very
19:11
self-conscious about that. Like it took me a while to feel
19:14
comfortable driving a new car. And it's just like the way I was
19:17
raised, the way that I've spent money throughout my life, all
19:20
that kind of stuff. So yeah, and it was a Kia.
19:23
It wasn't like a crazy thing. It was like a $40,000 Kia
19:27
minivan. Here's the way I think about
19:30
phones and laptops. I'm very passionate about them.
19:32
Every December I buy a brand new fully spec MacBook Pro and I buy
19:36
the best phone every December. And if I have someone on my team
19:41
that could inherit my old MacBook, they get my MacBook,
19:43
the old one or I sell it. And the resale value on all of
19:47
those things is like you end up losing in a year, maybe 20% at
19:51
most. And so like the resale value is
19:54
like baked into the product. And so it's like you kind of
19:56
like hold more value and the product is better.
19:59
And the way I think about it is that I make 100% of my money on
20:03
this thing. So the ROI of like technology, I
20:08
think it's like. If you work on it, I think it's
20:11
the most ROI positive thing. And so I actually, I truly
20:15
believe it's like the best thing to spend money on.
20:17
Yeah, it's funny because Zach, it's like I actually think
20:20
you're right, but this is where emotions play.
20:23
And so, and to be clear, again, like for my work stuff, I work
20:28
on a Mac and, and front from a phone standpoint, I actually, I
20:34
try to be less connected than I am even currently.
20:37
So that's actually part of the reason like I think I'd be more
20:39
connected with an iPhone that what I am now.
20:41
The crappier the phone, the harder it is to use, the less
20:45
likely I am to use it. So it's like an intentional
20:48
choice to like try to disconnect a little bit more and spend more
20:51
time with my family. But I still do it.
20:52
I still like I delete apps on my phone and I'll still log into to
20:56
LinkedIn or or X or something on the browser where absolutely
21:01
sucks when I get sick of it and stop doing it.
21:03
So anyway, but the point is on like I agree with you, but it
21:07
just shows you like how or I just I think it highlights
21:11
emotions and like how much was like baked into, I mean, even,
21:15
you know, going back to childhood and stuff, the way
21:16
we're raised and how that has an impact.
21:17
And then again, going back to the preferences, like there is
21:20
obviously window machines still sound like crazy even if a Mac
21:24
is better because there's, there's price sensitivity that
21:27
built in, there's preferences, there's, I'm this type of
21:30
person, not that type of person, all that kind of stuff.
21:32
And I think that obviously fits into the software buying
21:34
equation as well. Zach, what is do you work more
21:37
on your laptop or on your phone? I never work on my phone.
21:42
It's actually probably my most toxic trade like you.
21:45
Never work on your phone. Like if I am in a strong pinch,
21:50
but like if I'm out and like Slack messenger coming through,
21:55
I wait until I'm at my laptop to respond to things like even text
22:00
messages like imessages and stuff like that.
22:01
Like I just the way I think about it is like increment of
22:05
time versus like what I can do. And it's just like I could do it
22:09
on my phone. But like, I really, really
22:11
enjoy, I love computers like you guys on my Instagram, my like
22:16
only highlight is just desks. And it's just like different
22:19
desks that I've had throughout my life or like places I've
22:21
traveled to. I literally travel with a
22:23
Pelican case in a studio display.
22:25
So like when I go on trips, I like travel with a full office
22:28
with me. And so like I'm a bit of a desk
22:30
Princess. So I like sitting here in the
22:33
darkness with no natural light. And this is where I find joy
22:38
with work. I don't want to be.
22:39
I'm not like a laptop guy. Wait, wait, so I I actually love
22:43
this. This is awesome.
22:44
So you're saying you don't get as much joy out of doing work on
22:49
your phone and that's the reason why you don't do work on your
22:51
phone? Or doesn't feel like I'm even
22:53
like I don't. I like feeling autistically
22:55
tapped in like I like intensity and I can't be intense when I'm
22:58
on my phone and so I just doesn't feel good.
23:02
But this feels. Good, Eli, what do you do?
23:08
Feel like I was on QVC for one of those simple phones or an
23:11
iPhone and I was waiting for the Fermat link to be dropped into
23:14
the chat so we can all make the purchase.
23:17
But what do I do? I, I probably do like 30% of my
23:21
work on my phone. I can work with one screen, with
23:25
two, with three. Like I, I'm very much like,
23:30
unless it's like heavy visualization, like looking at a
23:33
figma file, like I truly just, I probably send half the slacks
23:37
from my phone. But it's also like toxic because
23:39
I work probably 16 hours a day because I'm always, I probably
23:43
have like ridiculous screen time.
23:45
And I also global team, which means like I'll wake up at 5:00
23:48
and I have a couple of hundreds slacks and emails and whatever,
23:52
and I go to sleep at 12 and Australia's up and kicking.
23:56
So that's like the probably worst part of working in a
23:58
global company is that it just never, there's never silence.
24:01
Like Israel works on Sunday, they're off on Friday.
24:06
So it's basically six days a week and Tomer's seven day a
24:09
week a man. So so it's basically seven days
24:12
a week. And the phone is like slightly
24:15
to Zach's point for me, like the pro of it is, it feels like
24:18
slightly less locked in so I can just get what I have to done and
24:22
not fall into a into a a pile of of e-mail junk.
24:27
I find myself deleting a lot of things when I'm working on my
24:29
phone. Just delete delete delete.
24:31
Unless it's like, yeah, if it doesn't seem important in that
24:34
moment, just gone, I feel. Like the shop was like a phone
24:39
guy. I remember when we were at Shop
24:41
Talk this year, you're like locked in when you're closing
24:43
the Series B, like on your phone.
24:45
And there was a part of me that's like, how's this guy
24:46
doing this right now? Like what?
24:48
An adaptable human. Can I show you guys?
24:51
I kind of want to show you guys something that you guys think
24:54
are. I feel like you're going to
24:56
think this is insane. Hold on, Let me try to find a
24:59
way to show you. This tell me it's a photo of you
25:01
with two phones and you're just using them at the same time.
25:06
No, no, no, no. It's a little bit better than
25:09
that. OK.
25:17
Is there such I think I'm going to like freeze my computer if I
25:21
do this, but I on my Slack, I literally my Slack name is
25:28
Rishabh Dash and then it's a Bitly link to a README file
25:35
about how to communicate with me.
25:37
OK, so that way there's like no ambiguity at any point in time
25:41
about how to communicate with me.
25:44
And point #5 is I work on my phone more than I do my desktop.
25:49
Please format info and asks accordingly.
25:53
Like if you send me a Figma file, don't just don't do that,
25:58
you know, just don't do that. Send me something that I can
26:01
like, like pinch, pinch on, you know what I mean?
26:04
Like pinch out, pinch in. Dude.
26:06
Zach, I think like, like my computer comes alive for this
26:12
podcast, basically like I am. Do I do the large majority of my
26:19
work on my phone? Yeah, you.
26:21
Really are rich, but I've heard that that's like the highest
26:25
like signal. It's like work on a desktop.
26:28
Work from a. Laptop.
26:29
Work from a phone and then only have dossiers printed out with a
26:32
highlighter. Like that's like the highest
26:34
level leverage of just rich is just like printed nice ring
26:38
binders with a highlighter and like your one phase removed from
26:41
that. Yeah, yeah, you're going to,
26:44
you're going to like make somebody on that Twitter thread
26:47
angry now. But there's like a dude.
26:50
I, I, I almost, I almost like, I don't, I don't, I don't actually
26:57
even have a desk at work. Like when you were talking about
27:01
like your desk space and like I used to have a desk in our
27:04
office, but it has basically gotten to the point where it
27:07
just doesn't even make sense to have a desk.
27:10
So I just like sit and the like kitchen or living area and then
27:16
when I need to take calls I just go to one of the conference
27:18
rooms basically. Yeah, I like that.
27:22
I mean, my, my preferred works. I said I'm doing like focus
27:26
work. My preference is on my laptop
27:29
and a coffee shop. Like that's what I would prefer
27:32
to do. I don't care about monitors,
27:33
anything like that. I just want to be like locked
27:35
in. I also like noise and stuff
27:38
around me. Doesn't I just tune it all out?
27:39
You can ask my wife. It's just like.
27:42
Gone so I don't have any problems focusing when I need to
27:46
focus in that regard. And then I now like nowadays I
27:52
there's so many calls that I'm on and so as much as possible,
27:54
I'm trying to do this on my phone, just call in and just
27:58
walk and talk as much as I can, which has been good.
28:01
I'm losing some weight without exercising, exercise obviously,
28:05
but but yeah like I don't have time with them and stuff like
28:10
that right now in newborn. So so anyway, yeah, it's that's
28:15
my preference is one of those two states.
28:17
If I can be sitting in front of my computer in a lot, in a
28:20
coffee shop or on my phone, that's what I want to do.
28:24
I'm also curious when you guys think about like your best
28:27
operating style, is it like video calls?
28:30
Is it blocks of deep work? Is it phone calls?
28:35
Like what is the and I'm especially curious for for
28:39
foreplay because you guys are remote.
28:41
Basically, are you guys like tagging each other on the phone?
28:44
Is it like, hey, let's each do a deep work product and then sync
28:48
up later? Like what's the?
28:51
So we're like half remote, half not a lot of the dev team is
28:55
like in Toronto. But again, like I stay upstairs
28:58
in this room by myself most of the time.
29:00
I do my best work doing deep work and I'm not very good at
29:03
doing anything else except for that.
29:06
But I mean, we kind of just do a daily for dev.
29:09
We do a daily stand up, 15 minutes in the morning and then
29:12
at night everyone tells what they did we're ready to do the
29:15
next day. And then me and Jack is like
29:17
more ad hoc, but it's like very like chill.
29:21
There's not much collaborative work going on.
29:22
It's like do a thing. The thing move on to.
29:26
The next. Thing tools that facilitate that
29:28
collaboration, they're like Figmas awesome, right?
29:31
Being able to collaborate with people like permissionlessly.
29:33
There's no friction. You're just able to get in and
29:37
but yeah, I would say deep work. You know, I had a little quip
29:39
that I don't even believe in that people who do meetings all
29:42
the time think that meetings are work, right?
29:44
It's silly, right? Some meetings are work and you
29:46
can get full productive stuff done in meetings, but a lot of
29:49
meetings are burnt time. That could be a message, right?
29:52
Or an e-mail. So yeah, I, I, I definitely and
29:58
unless it's a good meeting and I like a good meeting, I want to I
30:02
want to have deep work. Do you guys get into a flow
30:05
state ever where you feel like really locked in, you feel good?
30:11
I just chase that dragon every single day and have been relying
30:15
on drugs much more recently. Nights and weekends are the only
30:20
time I really get it to like a flow state holidays actually.
30:24
And now, now I've got Canadian and a lot of Canadian and US
30:28
employees. So at least the downside is that
30:32
there's people working on both US and Canadian holidays, but
30:35
it's always quieter, so it's usually easier to get into a
30:38
little bit more of a workload on those days.
30:41
Actually feel like it's become people's personality to like
30:45
hate meetings or love meetings. And I think it's mostly noise
30:49
because I think every person is so different.
30:51
Like we've, we've gotten into a place on like DTC Twitter where
30:54
like if you cancel your whole company's meetings, you're a
30:57
hero. And if you take too many
31:00
meetings, you're a villain. And as somebody that's worked in
31:03
companies from six employees to 1000 employees, I find that to
31:07
be so stupid. Like I think different people
31:10
obviously work very differently. I think from like I've seen
31:13
people take 12 hours of flow work and come back with Jack
31:16
shit. Like they'll take a creative
31:19
campaign, they'll take it into a flow state, they'll come back 12
31:22
hours later with a whole idea and the idea sucks and it sucks
31:25
from day one. But they never had a meeting
31:28
with other people or even like async show other people like,
31:31
hey, this is what I have. So the other people can say this
31:33
is dumb. And I think the hybrid of like
31:36
understanding what there we go, understanding what should be a
31:40
meeting versus what shouldn't be a meeting is arguably more
31:44
important than like wiping out all meetings because there's so
31:47
many people that work well with a touch base.
31:50
And I, I feel like a lot of companies in general have, you
31:53
know, like, think about like a, a 15 minute jump on, but that's
31:58
more of like a micromanaging. Like, I want to see what you're
32:00
doing versus like, is this person getting what they need to
32:03
get done? And do they need 20 minutes to
32:05
walk through it with you? Because they're getting paid
32:07
$70,000 a year and you're taking home 250 and they shouldn't be
32:12
working fully on their own at 70.
32:15
So I think it's like a very, very like Yepo has gone from
32:18
having too many to not having enough to wiping them all out to
32:20
starting again. I've like seen all the
32:22
evolutions, seen the same at Jones.
32:26
And I think it's, it's usually like some sort of projection
32:28
where like the person making the decision feels very strongly one
32:31
way or the other. But.
32:33
Right, I can agree more. Like meetings are important when
32:36
they're important. And, you know, actually just
32:38
deleting all meetings can seem brave and like a good thing to
32:44
do, but it's obviously not a good idea.
32:46
I used to work in agency and I had a call with this brand, huge
32:50
brand that had, you know, celebrity like identity attached
32:53
to the brand. We had an hour and a half long
32:56
meeting on how much to charge for shipping and eventually
32:59
landed on, well, Mr. Beast is doing $5, let's do $5.
33:02
And man, by the end of that call, I was like, I, I was, I
33:08
was burnt, right? I was, I was done.
33:11
And all of that could have been done in like 6 slack messages,
33:14
right? So some meetings not very
33:17
useful. I think what Zach, Zach, how did
33:20
you land on the 15 minutes of just like, hey, what's everybody
33:24
doing? What are people blocked on?
33:25
And then just every day just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
33:28
Like where did that? Where did you land on that from?
33:31
I didn't have like a project manager and people weren't being
33:33
managed properly and then the velocity of check insurance
33:37
wasn't enough. And it seemed like a really good
33:41
day to or time of the day to get clarity.
33:45
I would say that sometimes it feels redundant, but then the
33:47
meetings 3 minutes and not 15. And like sometimes we have the
33:50
meeting at 5:45 and it's like we're talking about and we get
33:53
to the morning and if there is anything that came up or like a
33:55
new bug and like maybe then you can shuffle and be more dynamic
34:00
on what's going to be done. And it's like, oh, like we're or
34:02
then sometimes it's like, Oh, we talked about this like literally
34:04
like 12 hours ago. So like, nothing's changed.
34:08
So yeah, but it just seems like it keeps like a nice consistency
34:12
of just like getting shit done. And I also just, I think part of
34:16
it comes from like, I used to be the designer at this like a
34:20
freelance designer at this like fantasy sports app.
34:23
And this team used to, we'd only work on Saturday and Sunday.
34:27
And I would like drive to like wherever we would work.
34:29
It was a very small team and we'd sit in this guy's living
34:31
room and everybody was involved with fucking every decision on
34:35
the entire team. And we would sit and pontificate
34:39
something forever because the ability to pontificate it was
34:44
there. And we never made better
34:48
decisions from that. We just took a lot longer to
34:50
make them. And then we would change them.
34:53
The next opportunity we had to pontificate on the decision
34:56
before to pontificate it. So like, I just like don't think
34:59
that people are even good at making a lot of really good
35:01
decisions. And so like just make one and
35:04
then cuz we could change it most of the time.
35:06
Like none of this is like that serious.
35:08
So like I think velocity is like way more important than like.
35:14
Yeah, I saw actually on that point, I saw Mike Beckham simple
35:19
modern posted something a little while ago that I thought was
35:22
really good. The idea of like one way doors
35:23
versus two way doors in decision making and like if it's if it's
35:27
something where you can change your mind basically, then just
35:31
make the decision do it as fast as you can and move as quickly
35:34
as you can. And if it's a one way door, like
35:36
you can't go back the other way, then take time with that
35:40
decision and be, you know, pontificate in that context,
35:43
right. But the reality is those kind of
35:45
decisions are pretty rare There's.
35:48
Almost none of them. I use this like a lot like I
35:50
have a friend that's I've convinced to quit their job and
35:53
they're going off on their own and I'm kind of like coaching
35:55
them through just like not having someone tell them what to
35:58
do and like how to whatever. And like they were like just
36:01
like obsessing about these two way door decisions.
36:04
And then I maybe like and I hadn't really thought of the
36:05
concept in a long time and I really thought about it and like
36:08
the number of two way doors or sorry, the number of one way
36:13
doors is so small. Like yeah, and most of them
36:16
don't even exist in work. Like the one way doors, like
36:20
having a child and like exactly, exactly.
36:23
It's. The only one actually it's.
36:25
Literally the only one. Like everything else is like
36:29
like a two way door. And so it's just like just do
36:32
it. Like, yeah.
36:35
Yeah, I, I, I actually Zach, I agree with you completely.
36:38
I cannot think of a one way door other than having a kid.
36:43
Well, sorry. Raising money.
36:45
Raising money. Yeah, right.
36:47
Once, once they're on your cap table, they're on your cap
36:49
table. That's like, pretty annoying.
36:51
Technically you can give it back.
36:52
That doesn't always work, right? Or like there's those situations
36:55
if you're gonna fire somebody, for example, like could you hire
36:59
them back? Sure.
37:00
But like that kind of feels like a one way door.
37:03
Yeah. But you can also like replace
37:04
them, right? If it's not like the only, you
37:06
know, like, yeah, there's like almost no one way or.
37:14
I wanted to, I wanted to double down on this like 15 minute
37:19
daily stand up thing, Zach, because I recently, at least for
37:24
us and I don't know how how you guys are all dealing with this,
37:27
but the need for focus. Well, Eli, this is going to
37:32
sound ironic, but the need for focus has become more and more
37:34
and more and more right? And I think that's just like in
37:40
part because the market landscape for ECOM is becoming
37:44
clearer and clearer. And so it's becoming clearer.
37:46
Where do you, where should a given company focus?
37:48
How should the people inside that company focus so on and so
37:50
forth. And I've been encouraging
37:54
everybody on my team to just, this is going to sound very
37:58
Twittery, but to cancel all of their meetings, but to then
38:02
replace them with, hey, if there are like somewhere between one
38:07
and three things that you actually care about, ideally
38:09
it's closer to 1 than three. That thing just have a daily
38:14
stand up for it. And that's why I was asking you
38:17
how you landed on this because for whatever reason, it's taken
38:21
me forever to land on this. And we only started doing it
38:25
last week. But Oh my God, has it changed
38:29
the velocity with which we get things done?
38:32
It it's actually really interesting that you bring that
38:34
up because I think like the focus aspect feels for some
38:39
reason, it feels now more important than ever.
38:42
And I mean, Eli, obviously, like you probably have some thoughts
38:46
on this with like what yacht has been doing, but I mean, I'm
38:48
doing this as well with, with and stamped with a no.
38:50
It's very much like, OK, we actually like we've, there's all
38:53
been all these things that we could do, but we just have to do
38:58
something and do it really well and go hard after that one thing
39:02
or two things. Maybe they're right.
39:03
But it's like taking there are 10 ideas that we're kind of
39:06
working towards. We just need to focus on one and
39:08
get it done. That kind of an approach.
39:11
And I it is interesting. And maybe it is the clarity,
39:15
Rishabh, that you're speaking to.
39:16
Like it does feel like there's a little more clarity kind of in
39:18
the industry and what AI means and all of that.
39:22
Or maybe it's just been that there's so much turmoil in those
39:26
things. It's like so much.
39:27
There's been so much optionality and you have to explore the
39:29
optionality. But at a certain point, you
39:31
can't keep doing that. You have to actually like push
39:33
in on something and make it happen.
39:35
I think speaking to the Yuppo side, but also in general, I
39:39
think that the the thought that people usually have is stop
39:43
doing all the things because you'll fail at all of them.
39:46
And I think with Yap PO, you know, they built like a 30 +
39:49
1,000,000 dollar ARRSMS business and built like went from zero to
39:53
a few million on e-mail, right? Like this is, this isn't like a
39:55
failing business per SE, but focus is like a is a is a pretty
39:59
hardcore drug. And I think there's like going
40:02
all in on one or two things is generally going to give better
40:06
outcomes, even if it's not like the the Grand Slam you're
40:09
looking for. But maybe it's a really strong
40:11
double. And I think, like the other
40:14
thing I feel that a lot of I'm seeing in SAS is like just soft
40:18
culture. Like Tomer talks about this a
40:20
lot of like brand, you know, like a SAS company will raise
40:23
and then raise another round and raise a third round.
40:25
And the people that come to work at a company that raised $400
40:27
million are not the same as the people that are going to go work
40:31
for a foreplay or for even a judge me, right?
40:34
Like the people that are going to go work for an early stage,
40:36
bootstrapped, fast growing. Like the people that were at
40:39
Ollipop are very different than the people at Yapo just because
40:42
of people looking for like a quote UN quote cushier job.
40:46
And that's why I like when Yapo, you know, like Peloton did 4
40:49
rounds of layoffs. I didn't hear anyone whining on
40:51
LinkedIn, you know, like Yapo did.
40:53
Yapo did a round of layoffs. So it's like, where are they
40:55
going to fucking work? I don't know.
40:57
They'll get another job. Are you helping?
40:59
Because you aren't. But that like the point is, yes,
41:01
it sucks, but like part of growing a really fast business
41:05
is it's super important to be just as hardcore as you were
41:09
when you're a five person company.
41:10
And I think that like a lot of that is lost.
41:12
Like when you have hundreds of employees, it's like someone
41:15
else will handle this. Like we'll be two weeks late on
41:17
whatever. Oh, it's a bug.
41:19
It can it can be handled on Sunday and then it's like, OK,
41:21
no, it's Friday night and our place has a bug on loyalty and
41:25
you're not going to sleep until it's fixed.
41:27
But it's just a different kind of employee because when you're
41:29
a team of seven, it's like, no, it's obvious that we're not
41:31
going to sleep until it's fixed because we're all in the office
41:34
and we're having like old pizza. But when you're like 1000 person
41:37
team, it's just not the same. So I think, I guess a focus, but
41:40
be like the culture is so fucking important.
41:43
And I'm seeing that with large companies more than I saw it.
41:45
Like Lollipop had the best culture in the world, but that's
41:47
because they were obsessive on hiring and they hired like a
41:49
very specific type. But even like just large
41:52
companies, like trying to find somebody for 1000 person company
41:55
that does a very specific thing, but also have some sort of like
41:59
care about whatever goes off when something breaks is near
42:03
impossible. Like it's, it's brutal.
42:06
I am. I think about focus like an
42:08
interesting way like, so I think that sometimes that people think
42:12
focus is like a higher, higher risk move, right.
42:16
And I relate a lot of stuff back to like gambling often because I
42:20
really enjoy it. But the difference between
42:23
focusing and gambling, for example, let's just say it's a
42:25
roulette wheel and you're like, oh, my highest return will be
42:28
putting like all the money on one number on roulette.
42:31
And like people think that like, oh, you're putting all your
42:33
focus on this one thing. And so you have, yeah, you might
42:36
have like a, a crazy upside, but you have like way more chance to
42:40
miss. But the difference between
42:42
gambling and like business is that you actually control the
42:45
board a little bit. So when you focus, like there's
42:48
still luck involved. But the difference is, is that
42:51
what you can do is you can essentially remove like half or
42:53
like 3/4 of the numbers that the ball could potentially land on.
42:57
And so like, there's still like luck involved.
42:59
But like actually focus isn't just like choosing a number, but
43:02
you're also like defining the game board in a way in which
43:05
like you actually are increasing your likelihood of success.
43:09
And like still benefiting from like the higher sort of like
43:13
centralized bet on like whatever you're doing rather than like
43:18
spreading like $1.00 chips across the entire like we're on
43:21
board in which like you usually lose like not even your bet most
43:25
of the time. You kind of just like continue
43:26
to tread water, water rather than like build bankroll is like
43:30
kind of the way that I think about it.
43:32
Yeah, I, I also think that the problem that is most people
43:39
don't think about sequencing correctly.
43:44
So they they think like, if I just focus on this one thing,
43:47
that I'm just doing this one thing, but actually what you're
43:50
doing is you're sequencing things because like once you do
43:53
the one thing, you still like wake up the next day and you got
43:56
to do the next thing. And, and, and actually, when you
43:58
focus on the one thing, what you're actually doing is you're
44:00
taking this like series of parallel work streams and you
44:03
just doing that. You're pivoting it into a series
44:06
of like sequential work streams. And you're actually getting one
44:10
thing done and then you're moving to the next and you're
44:11
getting the next thing done. You're moving to the next.
44:14
And the problem is that people misunderstand.
44:16
They think that when you do that, it's going to take the
44:18
same amount of time. But it turns out like to
44:21
nobody's surprise at all that the degree to which you get it
44:26
done and the rate at which you get it done is way faster.
44:28
So you take this and you do that and actually you compress the
44:31
time frame and you increase the outcome because you're like
44:34
learning rate is way faster as you're doing the one thing and
44:38
so. The learning is really important
44:40
in that you can't learn the same way if you if you do everything
44:42
at the same time. Yeah, exactly.
44:46
It's funny. I was like telling somebody the
44:48
other day that do you guys know the story that like Peter Thiel
44:52
would like walk out of the room if somebody talked to him about
44:54
something outside of their one thing.
44:57
Have you have you guys heard this?
44:59
No, I was telling someone I was like, gosh, like we're all in a
45:03
timeline where we just learned that Peter Thiel is correct.
45:06
It just it just takes us longer and I'm not sure I can walk out
45:13
of the room yet. But man, when somebody talks to
45:17
me about something that isn't the thing that they should be
45:20
focused on. I like imagine Peter Thiel
45:24
looking at me in disgust saying like, why are you still in the
45:28
room? You know what I mean?
45:30
And that's a good like, it helps me be more vocal that hey, like
45:36
we're spending time talking about this thing that isn't
45:39
that. Like if, if it helps you, like
45:42
if it makes you feel good to talk about it, then we can talk
45:44
about it. But we're doing it for your
45:47
feelings. It's not actually accomplishing
45:49
anything. As like a CEO right now.
45:52
Do you have a one thing? Yeah.
45:56
What is it? To get everybody to focus on one
45:58
thing, like literally it's a cultural issue.
46:03
And, and it turns out that CEO's ability to impact culture is
46:07
actually one of the biggest things that you can do.
46:10
And so I actually don't, I actually have like explicitly
46:12
decided that I will own no work streams and and and and focus
46:18
entirely on organizational behavior.
46:22
Yeah. I like that.
46:24
I feel like the decision to focus or to install focus is an
46:28
understanding of the waste or of the opportunity cost of
46:31
diversifying attention. You know everything you've been
46:33
speaking about, and the solution might be training or creating a
46:36
culture for a strong biased action, which is just another
46:40
way of saying speed and execution.
46:42
I heard this fun quote once. The main thing is to keep the
46:45
main thing the main thing. But in teams, you know, that
46:51
looks different in so many different teams.
46:54
For us, it looks like a clearly defined plan of the work getting
46:58
done and a concise report of its delivery each week.
47:01
The idea of receipts isn't revolutionary in the physical
47:04
product world, but I think it's crucially important in teams.
47:07
And it's just totally missed. I've heard this described at
47:10
different agencies as what? So what now what?
47:13
Or recent changes and next steps.
47:14
Everyone has like some version of it, but the idea is simple, A
47:18
concise change log and action items that create transparency
47:23
in the team that creates accountability, right?
47:27
So no one's asking, is the work getting done?
47:29
Is it working? What are we going to do next?
47:31
I think that that process of creating transparency, the same
47:35
way there's this call, right? If someone didn't turn up to the
47:38
call, you'd be like, ah, they're dropping the ball.
47:40
They're not meeting the expectation.
47:41
There's total transparency around delivery.
47:44
So everyone meets the expectation.
47:46
And yeah, I think giving people that ownership of their work
47:50
makes people stronger, right? Because you can have killers
47:52
that you turn into terrible employees if you don't have
47:56
that. Expectation.
47:57
Yeah, I don't know that we have time to dive too deeply on this,
48:00
but like one of the things I think about is what is the
48:03
responsibility I have to my employees as ACEO?
48:07
And there's so many things you can't control.
48:10
You can't control whether you have to fire people.
48:12
Yeah, I mean, you know what I mean?
48:14
Like the ultimate, you're going to have people you have to let
48:16
go. You're going to have people that
48:17
you have to. You're going to have layoffs can
48:20
happen. You're going to have, you know,
48:24
a business unit that you need to shut down because that's the
48:27
right thing for the business. And that means that people
48:29
aren't going to be able to have a job in that context.
48:31
You can't just like promise that people are going to have cushy
48:34
jobs. And I think it's going to be
48:35
easy and it's always going to be fun and all this kind of stuff.
48:38
But the one thing you can do is you can give people the ability
48:42
to to step up and to take ownership and to try to be their
48:47
best, the best version of themselves in the context of
48:50
their work. That is like the one thing you
48:52
can actually do as ACEO in a business and be able to actually
48:55
promise that to people. So anyway, that's I've been
48:58
thinking about that a lot lately in terms of like what that looks
49:01
like so. I, I think two things that
49:05
people don't talk about enough is issue number one, too many
49:10
people don't know how to hire and just hire terrible people
49:13
and expect greatness. And I think you can be like the
49:15
best leader in the world. Like you won't change someone's
49:17
DNA like you, you won't take a diamond in the rough from
49:20
somebody that will never be a diamond.
49:23
Like there's, there's some you can do, but a lot of it is just
49:25
therapy and personal development and fixing what's going on with
49:28
their home and fixing their childhood, which is not your
49:30
problem. And you can't do anything about
49:32
it. The second, like massive thing I
49:34
think is, is a huge mistake that people think if I hire like a
49:37
great person, it means they'll do great work.
49:39
And I've seen this like a bunch of times where you can hire like
49:42
a person that did great work at one org and then they come to
49:44
your organ. You're like, why do they suck so
49:45
badly? And turns out it's not them
49:48
sucking. It's just like you create an
49:49
environment that's impossible to get good work done or you're
49:52
just a terrible manager and are doing the exact opposite.
49:55
For example, if somebody like is super, super great at working on
49:58
their own time frame and you're checking in every half hour,
50:01
there's a chance that work will be mediocre because all they're
50:03
trying to do is manage upwards. And maybe they're not the right
50:06
like, like we talk about product market fit.
50:08
We talk about like everything, everything fit, but like
50:11
employee and boss fit is just barely ever spoken about.
50:14
But I think is like probably a top five most important thing is
50:17
like if you're reporting to one person versus the other, your
50:20
work will be different based on how they understand you.
50:23
And for some reason, like most CE OS just have high IQ, but
50:27
very few have high EQ. And I think EQ is more important
50:31
than IQ when you manage people. I think what's funny about that
50:33
is I got asked on a interview yesterday, like what is my
50:39
management style and how do I help people learn and grow?
50:42
And my exact answer to this person was it kind of doesn't
50:47
matter what I do because the impact that you're going to feel
50:50
on that is going to be your direct manager, not not actually
50:53
me. And there's like a certain set
50:55
of things like I, I can influence, like I can set
50:58
expectations for managers. I can like make myself available
51:01
in certain ways, but I'm not going to be like how you
51:07
experience your growth and development in your time here.
51:11
So, and, and Eli, like what's interesting about what you said
51:14
is I, I am not sure that most employees understand what you
51:21
said. So, so like, yes, of course it's
51:25
the job of the leader to think about that, right?
51:28
Because they're the one hiring and therefore you should be
51:31
thinking about like how to hire and things like that in that fit
51:36
question. I think that, and this is
51:39
something I try to encourage people to do when they're like
51:41
asking for advice when they're looking for job, like, not
51:44
people here, but when they're like other people who are
51:46
broadly in my network when they're looking for jobs, I'm
51:48
like, hey, like you, you need to ask these types of questions
51:53
because you need to know whether or not you're going to be
51:55
successful when you show up on day one because like worse than
51:58
not getting the job is getting fired on day 60.
52:01
Like that's actual like what you're what you should be
52:03
solving for in the interview is at day 60.
52:06
AM I successful? Not Am I getting the job And and
52:10
and your questions should be based on that.
52:13
It's super hard to do. Can I, I know we have like a few
52:19
minutes here. Can I ask you like 11 quick
52:21
question, your what's like the the number one thing that you
52:28
find interesting about moving from being in the physical
52:33
world, physical good space, e-commerce space, whatever you
52:37
want to call it, D to C into SAS.
52:40
What's what's like your your biggest learning in that
52:42
process? I'll give you like 5 quick ones
52:46
#1 every relationship I had with anyone on the SAS side was fake
52:49
because suddenly when they have nothing to sell to you, they're
52:51
not your friend. Number two, you don't get any
52:54
entry into it. What's that face about?
52:58
Like all of the guys that were just checking in on me every two
53:01
weeks don't give a fuck. They just had something to sell.
53:04
And I think that that's. Like.
53:07
Exactly. But that's like and and, and
53:10
it's obvious, but also like if you're on the brand side and
53:12
getting invited to all the events, the second you quit your
53:15
job at Estee Lauder, you're done.
53:18
So just FYI, these aren't your friends.
53:19
They're just trying to sell you shit #2 I think like a lot of
53:24
brand people are insufferable and really rude.
53:26
So I say that because I spent a decade working at really fast
53:29
growing great brands. And you see, like the way that
53:32
they treat their CSMS on the SAS side is a disgrace.
53:36
And I have like a list of them because I sit across a pretty
53:39
wide array of things. But there are people that are
53:41
just disgraceful. And, and when their customers
53:44
treat them that way, they're confused by like, why did my
53:47
customer do this? They're crazy, we should fire
53:48
them #3 I think like I really enjoy hard things and working at
53:53
like Lollipop and Jones Rd. are like the two fastest 2 of the
53:57
fastest growing brands in the last 20 years.
53:59
And that's not that wasn't hard enough for me.
54:04
And yet post hard, I think anyone here knows that for more
54:08
reasons than one. The last thing I'll say is like,
54:11
I think the cycle, the buying cycle is just such an enigma.
54:15
And it's so fascinating that like when you're trying to sell
54:17
makeup, it's just like a good direct response ad.
54:20
When you're trying to sell a product that cost 10 grand or 20
54:22
or 50, it's like 6 months. It's catching them in the right
54:25
moment. It's understanding how many
54:27
times they've seen you in the last six months up until now.
54:30
It's understanding every single person that talks to them.
54:32
It's understanding like which people they're looking at and
54:35
who's selling that thing. Much more complex, much harder.
54:40
Both brand and SAS people are equally miserable, but in
54:44
different ways. I've learned so much in the last
54:47
year and a half that I can like, retire now and I feel like I've
54:49
got a I've got a book to write. That's amazing.
54:54
Can I just say I feel, I feel like I have to defend myself a
54:57
little bit. I've spent more time talking
54:59
with you after you joined the oppo.
55:01
In fact, almost all of our relationship is after you joined
55:04
the SAS side. So then you're obviously not,
55:06
you're obviously not part of this part of this rule, but I've
55:09
got a list. Oh my.
55:13
God Eli, I have to ask why is you said that yacht pose hard
55:16
For a few reasons. Why is your PO hard?
55:18
I mean brands, we we talk about brands, right?
55:21
Like brand Yapo has been the kid in the playground you punch
55:23
whenever you got a handful of sand for 10 years.
55:26
And you know, what was interesting about last week is
55:28
like last week Yapo is down and they're the kid at the
55:30
playground that fell and suddenly people start punching.
55:33
But daddy's there, right? Sorry, in this case, I'm daddy.
55:38
And I think that's like, that's bizarre, right?
55:40
Like you build a brand over time and, and what what happens to
55:44
product? I think people underestimate how
55:45
important brand is. So I think that's issue #1 issue
55:49
#2 is like in the world of AI where anyone can build anything,
55:52
like Yapo has to quadruple down and move really, really fucking
55:55
fast. And #3 it's a complex org that
55:57
raised hundreds of millions of dollars that now has to, like,
56:00
buckle down and get shrewd and get small and get lean and get
56:03
hardcore in a way very different than it did going from 1000
56:07
employees to doing something really easy and simple but very
56:10
well. And executing at level 10 is the
56:13
hardest thing I've ever done it by a mile.
56:14
Like, it's much easier to take a team of three and get from zero
56:17
to 1. Like 0 to one has always been
56:19
easier for me than like 9 to 10. Yeah, totally.
56:23
And I mean SAS is harder than than people often think.
56:27
I think it's much, much harder than brands for like 1,000,000
56:29
reasons. But I think SAS is a beast and
56:33
ECOM people are also like, I think Zach said it well before
56:36
they're all, you know, a little strange.
56:39
ECOM people in general are just like an interesting bunch.
56:43
So building an ECOM, like in an alternate universe, we'd all be
56:46
like at JP Morgan making a couple 100K and just sleeping
56:50
well at night. But we all have a problem that
56:52
we like building. So say la vie.
56:58
That was wild dude. That was a successful episode.
57:03
It's tough. It's amazing.
57:04
By Jeremiah, an iPhone. Yeah.
57:08
I'm just gonna shoot him one. It'll sit in the.
57:11
It'll sit on a shelf somewhere.