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The Missing Piece of The Puzzle with Jessica Maguire · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Theverst Podcast. My name is Got Macpherson.
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Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
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Speaker 1: those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go,
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Speaker 1: So five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome
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Speaker 1: back to the podcast. Super excited to have as my
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Speaker 1: guest today, Jessica Maguire. Jessica, welcome, Thanks Scott.
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Speaker 2: I'm really excited to take you to chat with you.
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Speaker 1: Appreciate that. So. Jessica is a trauma informed physiotherapist, educator,
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Speaker 1: and author of the book The Nervous System Reset. She
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Speaker 1: also specializes in nervous system regulation. She old a master's
0:37
Speaker 1: degree in health science and is an internationally recognized nervous
0:40
Speaker 1: system educator and ted X speaker. Her science backed approach
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Speaker 1: to trauma and burnout is helping to reshape how people
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Speaker 1: experience healing. Through her Nervousism School, Jessica teaches practical tools
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Speaker 1: that support long term healing, resilience, and emotional well being.
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Speaker 1: Bought a bang A little bit about you in a
1:00
Speaker 1: nutshell before we get going, share with the listeners where
1:04
Speaker 1: you're from originally and where you are currently.
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Speaker 2: SO. I grew up in Tasmania in Australia and at
1:11
Speaker 2: the moment, I mean Nearbyron Bay in Australia.
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Speaker 1: Okay, awesome, awesome, So let's dive in here. How the
1:20
Speaker 1: heck did all this start for you?
1:23
Speaker 2: It's a great question. But if we went back to
1:26
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, I'd been working in my physiotherapy clinic and
1:31
Speaker 2: I had, you know, like a really full case of
1:35
Speaker 2: patients that I would see who had a lot of
1:38
Speaker 2: chronic symptoms that wouldn't get better.
1:41
Speaker 1: And I always just pardon me, so physio physical therapist, Like,
1:46
Speaker 1: well we would call it okay, physical.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So working as a physical therapist, and I was
1:53
Speaker 2: really like had a big caseload of patients every day,
1:56
Speaker 2: but a lot of them with chronic health issues. And
2:00
Speaker 2: I knew there was this link of the physical with
2:03
Speaker 2: the emotional, but I didn't have a framework that I
2:07
Speaker 2: could use for myself to understand this really clearly and
2:11
Speaker 2: work within, you know, knowing what modality to use. But
2:15
Speaker 2: also I couldn't really teach clients about these or patients
2:19
Speaker 2: about this without almost telling them, well, your symptoms are
2:23
Speaker 2: all in your head, you know. So I felt like
2:27
Speaker 2: I was working with what was above the water of
2:30
Speaker 2: an iceberg with the pain, but what was really going
2:33
Speaker 2: on was much much deeper, and that's where I wanted
2:36
Speaker 2: to work.
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Speaker 1: Why what gave you that thought? Why did you think that?
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Speaker 2: I thought it for a long time by seeing how
2:47
Speaker 2: my patients would present with a flare up of an
2:51
Speaker 2: old injury, particularly with something like they'd been going through
2:55
Speaker 2: a period of stress, but also the initial injury had
3:00
Speaker 2: healed and there would be ongoing pain. But then there
3:04
Speaker 2: would almost be this consistent presentation of somebody who might
3:07
Speaker 2: have been anxious, they had insomnia, their gut wasn't well,
3:12
Speaker 2: and they had more pain, and then it could be
3:15
Speaker 2: the other way of somebody who was more collapsed, exhausted,
3:20
Speaker 2: chronic fatigue. And it just became this very clear pattern
3:26
Speaker 2: to me of some people it's like they're stuck on
3:29
Speaker 2: on and some people it's like they're stuck on off,
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Speaker 2: And I could do all the treatment on their back,
3:36
Speaker 2: but I'm not really getting to the root cause. So
3:39
Speaker 2: I knew that I needed to work at this intersection.
3:42
Speaker 2: And then there was more and more science coming out
3:44
Speaker 2: on the neuro immune system, which I always have been
3:47
Speaker 2: really fascinated by the interconnectedness of systems. So I decided
3:53
Speaker 2: to close down my clinic and take a gear to
3:57
Speaker 2: go into study. So I had that all set in place,
4:02
Speaker 2: and then three weeks before I was due to fly
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Speaker 2: sha the US, actually I lost my beautiful older brother
4:09
Speaker 2: Sam to suicide, and so it was a stage that
4:14
Speaker 2: really threw me into this regulation and so I learned
4:18
Speaker 2: to walk the talk if you like. It was a
4:22
Speaker 2: time where I was really shocked by it, but I
4:25
Speaker 2: also knew that the best thing I could do to
4:29
Speaker 2: help myself was to actually go and immerse myself in
4:33
Speaker 2: this world. And so yeah, I took twelve months to
4:36
Speaker 2: do that. And then when I came back to Australia,
4:39
Speaker 2: I started with workshops for my patients of how to
4:45
Speaker 2: look at nervous system regulation in the vagus nerve. And
4:48
Speaker 2: then my husband said to me, you need to take
4:52
Speaker 2: this online, and you know, as a health professional, I
4:55
Speaker 2: was like, it's not going to work online, but he
4:58
Speaker 2: was right. So we I started with a small masterclass
5:02
Speaker 2: and then an eight week program and now I have
5:06
Speaker 2: a certification course for I te each other health practitioners
5:10
Speaker 2: how to bring nervous system regulation into practice.
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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, thank you for sharing that and
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Speaker 1: so sorry to hear about your brother when you were
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Speaker 1: when you started studying the nervous system. I'm curious about
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Speaker 1: what it was like for you when you started learning
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Speaker 1: things that made you go oh, okay, oh, yes it
5:40
Speaker 1: was I'm sure there were times like that too.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a bit like coming home. So I
5:47
Speaker 2: knew intuitively that something was missing from my work, like
5:52
Speaker 2: I'd always felt that as this missing piece, and it
5:55
Speaker 2: frustrated me because my work as a clinician is to
5:59
Speaker 2: figure things out and I like doing that. I love
6:01
Speaker 2: going how do I get this to work? So when
6:06
Speaker 2: I looked at this way of seeing the nervous system,
6:10
Speaker 2: you know, we've had the old fight or flight, rest
6:13
Speaker 2: and digest to actually starting to go, oh, we have
6:16
Speaker 2: a state of a mobilization and really understanding a mobilization.
6:21
Speaker 2: That was really helpful for me. And then once I
6:25
Speaker 2: started to see the connection with things like the vagus
6:28
Speaker 2: nerve and inflammation, the neural immune system, it's like you
6:33
Speaker 2: see with a new set of eyes. And so rather
6:38
Speaker 2: than looking at like, well, my job is I work
6:40
Speaker 2: with the body and somebody else works with the brain,
6:43
Speaker 2: or it could be vice versa. It's you know, no
6:47
Speaker 2: profession owns the nervous system. It's really for all coaches
6:53
Speaker 2: and clinicians to lean into that. And I see that.
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Speaker 2: For me, I stopped looking at where I had to say, okay,
7:01
Speaker 2: I need to stop working here with someone to being like, well, okay,
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Speaker 2: this person may be seeing somebody for their gut, somebody
7:11
Speaker 2: getting taking medication to sleep, you know, somewhat for anxiety,
7:15
Speaker 2: and me for pain. But if I can get to
7:17
Speaker 2: the root cause of that, that's going to help all
7:21
Speaker 2: of these other things. And we're not We stop taking
7:24
Speaker 2: that siloed approach. So incredibly empowering once I realized how
7:30
Speaker 2: much the nervous system was orchestrating with the other systems,
7:34
Speaker 2: and so yeah, it really felt like coming home. And
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Speaker 2: I'd done a lot of neuroscience because I'd worked with
7:40
Speaker 2: patients who'd had a stroke, and so I was fully
7:46
Speaker 2: aware of looking at well, if this happens in the brain,
7:48
Speaker 2: this is what we'd see. And that applies a lot
7:52
Speaker 2: to this work too. So there is a part from
7:55
Speaker 2: the body, but there's also the neuroscience, and then there's
7:58
Speaker 2: also neuroplastice, which is the exciting part of how the
8:02
Speaker 2: nervous system heals so I think bringing that all together
8:06
Speaker 2: for me was like it made it whole instead of
8:11
Speaker 2: feeling like I had to work with these isolated bits
8:15
Speaker 2: and pieces, and it was really satisfying.
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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. It sounds to me like it was empowering. Also,
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Speaker 1: yes for you before. Just as an aside here for
8:26
Speaker 1: our listeners, the vegas nerve. We talk about it, people
8:30
Speaker 1: give us the nutshell? Why is what is this vegas
8:34
Speaker 1: nerve we everyone talks about.
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Speaker 2: I know, we talk about it like we could just
8:38
Speaker 2: hack it then we're never going to feel anxious again,
8:41
Speaker 2: which would be so lovely, wouldn't it. But the reality
8:45
Speaker 2: is it's actually more like an ecosystem of its own.
8:48
Speaker 2: So you know, when we talk about the vegas nerve,
8:51
Speaker 2: it's not one little nerves. It's ginormous and it has
8:56
Speaker 2: different receptors for different roles. But I like to think
9:00
Speaker 2: of it in three parts. So if we said the
9:04
Speaker 2: first branch runs from the brain stem, which is like
9:07
Speaker 2: if you put your your hand down the back of
9:09
Speaker 2: your head and when inwards from there, that's where our
9:12
Speaker 2: brain stem is and it goes to our heart, and
9:15
Speaker 2: so that plays a role in helping us cope with
9:19
Speaker 2: and recover from stress, so really important with emotional regulation.
9:24
Speaker 2: And then the other branch, rather than going to the heart,
9:27
Speaker 2: it goes under our diaphragm, spreads out like a vine,
9:31
Speaker 2: touches almost every organ in our gut and goes right
9:35
Speaker 2: down to the colon. And then the other branch goes
9:39
Speaker 2: from our heart up to our face. And so this
9:43
Speaker 2: plays a role in communication connection. This is where we
9:47
Speaker 2: speak a lot about coregulation too, and so you can
9:51
Speaker 2: see it's got many many different roles from regulating our emotions,
9:57
Speaker 2: balancing our organs, but also how we connect with others.
10:02
Speaker 2: And this is why, like I was saying, we need
10:05
Speaker 2: more of an interconnected approach to helping people that look
10:09
Speaker 2: at all of these things rather than you know, simply
10:13
Speaker 2: one thing like pain.
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Speaker 1: So okay, so how do you work now with a
10:22
Speaker 1: client with the understanding that everyone's different, But give us
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Speaker 1: an idea of how you utilize this information, this knowledge
10:32
Speaker 1: you have to work with people.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. I thrive with frameworks, and
10:39
Speaker 2: I think many clinicians do because we take we have
10:42
Speaker 2: so much information that we need a way to move
10:45
Speaker 2: between that sure, and so I think it all begins
10:48
Speaker 2: with understanding the different states that somebody might be presenting
10:53
Speaker 2: with what it looks like. How we hear that from
10:57
Speaker 2: their language, because most people that come in to see
11:02
Speaker 2: us are not saying, hey, I'm disregulated.
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Speaker 1: You know my vaguest nervous off.
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Speaker 2: I've been through chronic stress and trauma, so this is
11:13
Speaker 2: why I'm here. That most people don't even know that
11:15
Speaker 2: that's what's going on, and especially people who are in
11:19
Speaker 2: dorsal vaguel shutdown or they've had that immobilization where they're
11:24
Speaker 2: not in touch with their body at all. They're probably numb,
11:29
Speaker 2: and so they don't even realize that that's the state
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Speaker 2: that they're in. So first thing is really it all
11:36
Speaker 2: begins with what state is somebody in. The reason that
11:40
Speaker 2: we need to do that is based on the principles
11:43
Speaker 2: of neuroplasticity. Specificity is really important. So what state someone's
11:50
Speaker 2: in will determine how we work with them. And we'll
11:54
Speaker 2: give us an example.
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Speaker 1: Patter, give us an example.
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Speaker 2: Okay, so for somebody who is in that dorsal vagel shutdown,
12:03
Speaker 2: immobilized flat, and let's say we go, okay, you're gonna
12:08
Speaker 2: do one to two breathing. Now that person no. One
12:13
Speaker 2: to two breathing is a blanket exercise that we hear
12:15
Speaker 2: a lot for nervous system regulation. For that person, we
12:20
Speaker 2: are likely to immobilize them even more and so they're
12:24
Speaker 2: likely to have more flatness, feeling even worse. So it's
12:29
Speaker 2: really about us not only being able to support our
12:34
Speaker 2: clients the best we can, but also not doing any harm.
12:38
Speaker 2: And I think there's a little bit of an oversimplification
12:41
Speaker 2: with nervous system resources, as though we can just everybody
12:47
Speaker 2: tried this one thing and will feel better. But I
12:50
Speaker 2: don't believe in that at all. I think it all
12:53
Speaker 2: starts with what state is somebody in to start with.
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Speaker 2: So it's both looking at the bottom up its resources,
13:01
Speaker 2: but it's also the education that is extremely important that
13:05
Speaker 2: we provide. So for instance, let's say we have this
13:08
Speaker 2: person who comes in and they're collapsed, apathetic, and maybe
13:13
Speaker 2: they've been through an experience where you discover it was
13:17
Speaker 2: highly stressful and they froze in that time. So using
13:21
Speaker 2: education that teaches somebody there is a state of a
13:26
Speaker 2: mobilization of your nervous system that you moved into, and
13:30
Speaker 2: it's not your fault that you didn't run away. It's
13:32
Speaker 2: not your fault that you didn't fight back. That on
13:36
Speaker 2: its own can be enough to take out this We
13:40
Speaker 2: call it the second arrow, you know, like you get
13:43
Speaker 2: shot for the first time within the bad experience, but
13:46
Speaker 2: then you shoot yourself again for how you responded. And
13:49
Speaker 2: so it's a little bit like if they take that.
13:52
Speaker 1: Pattern, I've never heard of that analogy. That's pretty cool
13:55
Speaker 1: like that.
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Speaker 2: I like it too, and I think that's what we're
13:58
Speaker 2: seeing is a lot of people with shame, with blame
14:01
Speaker 2: coming in and it's perpetuating that cycle. So we like
14:06
Speaker 2: to say education can lead to regulation if it's delivered
14:11
Speaker 2: at the right time, when somebody is in a state
14:15
Speaker 2: where they have their brain ready for learning, prime for learning,
14:20
Speaker 2: which is not always the case. So I begin with
14:24
Speaker 2: education to speak a language that shared about the nervous system.
14:30
Speaker 2: But it would take me sometimes a while to figure out, well,
14:32
Speaker 2: what state is somebody in? And I think this is
14:36
Speaker 2: how we need to look at it. You know, if
14:38
Speaker 2: I was to diagnose someone with low back pain, I
14:42
Speaker 2: would listen and do a subjective assessment, and then I
14:47
Speaker 2: would take what I thought might be going on and
14:51
Speaker 2: see with objective data if that was true or not.
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Speaker 2: So I approach the nervous system in the same way.
14:59
Speaker 2: And I do education or I use bottom up resources
15:05
Speaker 2: as well, which could range from anything to the breath,
15:08
Speaker 2: to touch to movement depending on what I was looking at,
15:13
Speaker 2: but predominantly it's regulating the sensory systems that people need.
15:20
Speaker 1: So are you working entirely within the capacity of a physiotherapist.
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Speaker 2: From what I use in clinic. Yes, but also my
15:34
Speaker 2: training has been in you know, trauma as well, so
15:39
Speaker 2: I have a lot of other skills I can lean into.
15:42
Speaker 2: But I mean as a physiotherapist, the sensory systems are
15:46
Speaker 2: our bread and butter, so so it is neuroplasticity. So
15:52
Speaker 2: technically yes, and we and we also do cardio respiratory,
15:55
Speaker 2: which is the breath. In my first degree, I didn't
15:59
Speaker 2: realize it, but I was technically looking at the vagus
16:03
Speaker 2: nerve through electro the electric cardiograms. I was doing a
16:07
Speaker 2: lot of work with people where we actually looked at
16:10
Speaker 2: the heart. So that was my that was my background before.
16:14
Speaker 2: But technically all of it falls into that wheelhouse. But
16:20
Speaker 2: this is a really interesting point for health practitioners where
16:23
Speaker 2: we are looking at, well, who does own this? I mean,
16:26
Speaker 2: who's whose scope are we in, and I think it
16:30
Speaker 2: needs to be everybody's who's working with clinici of clients,
16:35
Speaker 2: because this is what's walking in the door right right.
16:38
Speaker 1: Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Jessica McGuire.
16:43
Speaker 1: Her book is called The Nervous System Reset, and she
16:47
Speaker 1: specializes in nervous system regulation. So let's talk a little
16:52
Speaker 1: bit about the book if we can here. Why did
16:57
Speaker 1: you write it?
17:00
Speaker 2: There was a part where I'd been sharing a lot
17:05
Speaker 2: of information with people online and it was great. I
17:11
Speaker 2: was just really surprised by how much people could interpret
17:16
Speaker 2: and understand. And I think as a health practitioner, we
17:19
Speaker 2: assume that our patients won't understand the complexities, but they
17:23
Speaker 2: certainly do if it's explained well. And I had quite
17:30
Speaker 2: over the years, you know, I started doing this in
17:32
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, so it was five years of things that
17:38
Speaker 2: I'd been writing about and sharing and then somebody wrote
17:42
Speaker 2: reached out to me and said would you like to
17:44
Speaker 2: write a book? And so I had a conversation with
17:50
Speaker 2: this publishing house and at the eleventh hour they started
17:55
Speaker 2: to do the pressure of well, if you don't say yes,
17:58
Speaker 2: now you're going to miss out. And I don't respond
18:01
Speaker 2: very well. So it was interesting. I through you know,
18:07
Speaker 2: how the universe works. I actually met a publisher like
18:11
Speaker 2: the day before I was Judah Sign and she said,
18:15
Speaker 2: I think that you can get published with one of
18:18
Speaker 2: the big five publishing houses and me and my ignorance said,
18:24
Speaker 2: who are they like, I don't even know. So we
18:27
Speaker 2: did it properly, and we put a pitch together and
18:31
Speaker 2: we yeah, put the book out to the world and
18:33
Speaker 2: we had we did. We published with Pan McMillan in Australia,
18:37
Speaker 2: Haschet in the US, and then Pan McMillan also through
18:41
Speaker 2: the UK. So it's been a really exciting time.
18:46
Speaker 1: That's amazing. So who's the book for.
18:50
Speaker 2: It's really accessible for everybody and that was the challenge
18:53
Speaker 2: of writing this book because I wanted to speak to
18:57
Speaker 2: both clinicians and so that anybody could pick it up.
19:01
Speaker 2: So that's that was that was very challenging for me.
19:04
Speaker 2: And I was writing it the last part, I think
19:08
Speaker 2: I was eight months pregnant and it was so hot.
19:13
Speaker 2: I was I can just remember being, you know, sitting
19:16
Speaker 2: at my desk writing and then I had these really
19:18
Speaker 2: puffy ankles and I had to go out into the
19:21
Speaker 2: swimming pool and just be like, oh this book, Yeah
19:24
Speaker 2: it was. It was a big test of my own
19:26
Speaker 2: nervous system. But we finished it off, and yeah, it's
19:29
Speaker 2: really for anybody, But I think it's not something you
19:33
Speaker 2: can sit down and just read in one day. The
19:35
Speaker 2: idea is, you know, you'd work through different chapters of
19:39
Speaker 2: it and give yourself time to try the tools and
19:41
Speaker 2: understand the different concepts.
19:44
Speaker 1: It feels to me like what you're seeing is obviously
19:49
Speaker 1: integral for psychotherapists a lot. And from your experience, do
20:00
Speaker 1: therapists psychotherapists have enough of this information?
20:06
Speaker 2: No?
20:08
Speaker 1: Okay, I guess one of the first questions that comes
20:12
Speaker 1: to my mind is why is that just because they're
20:16
Speaker 1: only taught a certain amount and they're not getting enough? What?
20:21
Speaker 2: I think because we've had an intersection, or we've separated
20:26
Speaker 2: systems like brain and body, we don't we haven't yet
20:31
Speaker 2: have a really clear way to look at the communication
20:36
Speaker 2: between the brain and body. And okay, if we take
20:39
Speaker 2: something like inter reception, okay, am I allowed to get nerdy?
20:43
Speaker 1: Here?
20:43
Speaker 2: Goough? Because I think this is well please.
20:45
Speaker 1: Yeah.
20:47
Speaker 2: So inter reception is our eighth sensory system, and it's
20:51
Speaker 2: how we recognize bodily signals, internal bodily signals, So it's
20:57
Speaker 2: largely the vagus nerve that carries these messages from the
21:00
Speaker 2: body up to the brain. If we're looking at the
21:04
Speaker 2: role of interception, we can say there's two parts to it.
21:10
Speaker 2: One is it plays a role in our bodily states.
21:15
Speaker 2: So these sensations, for instance, let's just say, first at
21:19
Speaker 2: a really basic example, you recognize the sensation of a
21:23
Speaker 2: dry throat and you might feel a little bit foggy,
21:26
Speaker 2: and so the brain says something's happening, and then there's
21:30
Speaker 2: an action. So these sensations drive in action, which is
21:33
Speaker 2: go and get a drink. We return back to homeostasis.
21:37
Speaker 2: So that's one way we look at interception. But the
21:42
Speaker 2: other part is looking at it from the emotional part. Now,
21:46
Speaker 2: we used to think there was this like one little
21:48
Speaker 2: part in the brain that was responsible for anger, you know,
21:52
Speaker 2: it was like one little section. But what we know
21:55
Speaker 2: now is that it's two or more bodily signals that
21:59
Speaker 2: come up to the brain, and then the way that
22:03
Speaker 2: the brain lights up. There's a whole brain experience creates
22:08
Speaker 2: that emotion, and it's largely the output is largely based
22:13
Speaker 2: on a prediction so it's incredibly complex but also so fascinating.
22:23
Speaker 2: And so we're looking at inter reception, this ability to
22:27
Speaker 2: see how we read bodily signals, how that lights up
22:31
Speaker 2: in the brain, and then the way that the brain
22:33
Speaker 2: predicts that is not necessarily something that we stop and
22:38
Speaker 2: think about. There's a way that we might praise sensations
22:42
Speaker 2: and say, my heart, something really bad's going to happen,
22:46
Speaker 2: and we see that in anxiety. But what we see
22:50
Speaker 2: in people who are depressed is they it's like the
22:53
Speaker 2: volume is turned down on sensations and they can't hear
22:56
Speaker 2: them as well. So inter reception is really really fascinating
23:01
Speaker 2: because that is actually the essence of self regulation. It's
23:07
Speaker 2: those sensations that drive our actions, and that's what the
23:13
Speaker 2: emotion is doing. It's saying do something. And so we
23:17
Speaker 2: may choose an action like I feel completely overwhelmed, I
23:22
Speaker 2: need a glass of wine. Or we might choose I
23:26
Speaker 2: feel completely overwhelmed, I need to change my career, I
23:31
Speaker 2: need to delegate, I need to You know, it can
23:33
Speaker 2: go so many different ways, and that's how our life
23:36
Speaker 2: will be different. But I think what's happened is we
23:40
Speaker 2: are looking at a process that ultimately involves body and brain,
23:45
Speaker 2: and we're trying to separate it as the brain is
23:48
Speaker 2: doing this, the body's doing that. But where the modulation
23:52
Speaker 2: of stress really lies is in that communication between the
23:57
Speaker 2: body and the brain and then how these networks light up.
24:01
Speaker 2: And that's really based on experience too.
24:04
Speaker 1: Wow, So do you work or how do you work
24:11
Speaker 1: sharing this information? Do you work with therapists, your workshops
24:14
Speaker 1: for them, courses for them? What?
24:16
Speaker 2: Yeah? So we actually have a Nervous System Certification course
24:21
Speaker 2: which is a twelve week program for coaches and clinicians
24:25
Speaker 2: and it really goes through the process, the framework of
24:29
Speaker 2: doing this step by step.
24:32
Speaker 1: And what is someone going to learn? How? Guess the
24:37
Speaker 1: question is how can they benefit? How's the therapist going
24:40
Speaker 1: to benefit from this?
24:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. It's designed to integrate into
24:46
Speaker 2: the you know, any practitioners current practice. It's not about
24:50
Speaker 2: leaving your expertise behind by any means, but it's really
24:54
Speaker 2: looking at like, Okay, how do I recognize the state
24:57
Speaker 2: my clients in. Then it's a sequencing framework that takes
25:02
Speaker 2: that any clinician can use that would look at where
25:05
Speaker 2: someone's at and what resource you'd apply from a body
25:08
Speaker 2: based point of view, and then also what education you
25:12
Speaker 2: would use at that particular point as well to bring
25:16
Speaker 2: about regulation. So it's all based on bottom up and
25:20
Speaker 2: top down communication and interventions to build nervous system regulation.
25:27
Speaker 1: So and correct me if I'm wrong here. This isn't
25:30
Speaker 1: necessarily another modality. Rather what almost a foundational education or
25:40
Speaker 1: information a platform that everything kind.
25:42
Speaker 2: Of moves from exactly. And the thing is this is
25:47
Speaker 2: I believe every clinician needs it because we're not saying, okay,
25:52
Speaker 2: we step in and only one little small group of
25:56
Speaker 2: people can use this. We're saying all people have an
26:00
Speaker 2: autonomic nervous system and are going to come in with things.
26:04
Speaker 2: We need to be literate in this. And so it's
26:07
Speaker 2: really how you can use that in your interviews, how
26:11
Speaker 2: you can buy education. And you know, the beauty of
26:15
Speaker 2: nervous system work is we don't need to do an
26:17
Speaker 2: hour of that. We can we can do a lot
26:20
Speaker 2: in fifteen minutes that can be integrated into our sessions already.
26:25
Speaker 2: So I really want to empower clinicians to stop that
26:30
Speaker 2: siloed approach and be able to, you know, say, well,
26:34
Speaker 2: I can play a role in this interconnected part and
26:37
Speaker 2: still stay inside my scope, you know, it's that's really
26:41
Speaker 2: what we're looking to support clinicians with.
26:44
Speaker 1: Would you say that you talked about interception and having
26:50
Speaker 1: that body awareness. Does this interface or how does this
26:57
Speaker 1: interface with somatic practices?
27:01
Speaker 2: Yes, there's some parts to it too, like we are
27:05
Speaker 2: looking at body base, but it's much more about the sequencing.
27:10
Speaker 2: So I think we've put an emphasis on the actual
27:13
Speaker 2: tools themselves, but the timing is more important of what
27:18
Speaker 2: we deliver. So for somebody who is in freeze and
27:24
Speaker 2: we know that the broker's area, which is the key
27:27
Speaker 2: language center of the brain goes offline, we're not going
27:30
Speaker 2: to try and use education. We're not going to try
27:32
Speaker 2: and use top down strategies. We're going to look more
27:36
Speaker 2: at like, okay, how do we work with the sensory
27:39
Speaker 2: systems here to build regulation. And it's not going to
27:43
Speaker 2: be interception because that's going to be too overwhelming, so
27:46
Speaker 2: we need to step back. So it's really about honoring
27:50
Speaker 2: the neurobiological hierarchy of the nervous system and following that.
27:55
Speaker 2: And I think there's not something for clinicians yet. It's
27:59
Speaker 2: been more like here's some resources, let's try these. But
28:03
Speaker 2: what I've been so inspired to give clinicians is the
28:08
Speaker 2: complete framework to move between and then have the capacity
28:12
Speaker 2: to add variations to that based on how a client
28:17
Speaker 2: is presenting.
28:18
Speaker 1: Wow, it sounds invaluable. Once again. The name of the
28:23
Speaker 1: book is The Nervous System Reset. Speaking with Jessica Maguire. Jessica,
28:29
Speaker 1: So obviously you've got a lot going on. What are
28:34
Speaker 1: you working on currently?
28:37
Speaker 2: I'm actually going back to university so I've got a research.
28:41
Speaker 1: Of course you will.
28:43
Speaker 2: I'm a giant nerd. So I actually had a meeting
28:48
Speaker 2: with my supervisor yesterday and I am looking at transcutaneous
28:52
Speaker 2: vagus nerve stimulation for nervous system dysregulation. I want to
28:57
Speaker 2: look at the protocols that will actually work for this
29:00
Speaker 2: because there's just not enough clinical trials to say how
29:06
Speaker 2: we apply it. And it's something I've been fascinated with
29:09
Speaker 2: for years, and we're getting more and more questions around
29:13
Speaker 2: well can I just pick this device off the shelf
29:16
Speaker 2: And I'm like, no, you need to have protocols to
29:19
Speaker 2: help people with this. So yeah, I was like, well,
29:22
Speaker 2: I'm going to go back and figure out how we
29:24
Speaker 2: deliver this the best.
29:26
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Transcutaneous?
29:28
Speaker 2: So it's actually a device that is used to stimulate
29:32
Speaker 2: the vagus nerve transcutaneous means on the skin, and so
29:36
Speaker 2: we apply the device to the skin. It was originally
29:42
Speaker 2: used as an invasive treatment method, so it was actually
29:47
Speaker 2: installed or surgically put into people with epilepsy to stimulate
29:52
Speaker 2: the vegus nerve. And at first they were like, oh wow, this,
29:56
Speaker 2: you know, this stops seizures for a lot of people
29:59
Speaker 2: or helps manage it. And then what they found was
30:02
Speaker 2: that people who had depression alongside that as a comorbidity,
30:07
Speaker 2: it disappeared. So there's a lot for this emotional regulation part.
30:12
Speaker 2: But we're also seeing it being used really well early
30:16
Speaker 2: early days for the gut health ibs. We see it
30:22
Speaker 2: works in neuroplasticity as well. So people with who've had
30:27
Speaker 2: a stroke, they're applying the stimulation as they're moving and
30:32
Speaker 2: doing their rehabilitation and it's promoting neuroplasticity, so people are
30:37
Speaker 2: healing at a much faster rate. So yeah, that's what
30:40
Speaker 2: I'm working on at the moment.
30:42
Speaker 1: Very cool, Very cool. All right, how do people learn
30:45
Speaker 1: more about you?
30:47
Speaker 2: Everything's on my website, which is my name, so Jessica
30:50
Speaker 2: McGuire dot com.
30:52
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll have that linked up here at the show
30:54
Speaker 1: notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Jessica,
30:59
Speaker 1: you are. You can feel your passionate about this topic,
31:03
Speaker 1: which I love. I mean, this is what this is
31:05
Speaker 1: all about for me. Love talking to you. I'd love
31:08
Speaker 1: to have you back and congratulations on everything you're doing.
31:12
Speaker 2: Thank you, guys. I'd love to come back and chat
31:14
Speaker 2: with you some more.
31:16
Speaker 1: All right, we'll be in touch. Take care,