Latest / SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day! / Yoreh De’ah 177:2-4. Interest: Business Dealings, Investor and Managing Partner

Transcript

Yoreh De’ah 177:2-4. Interest: Business Dealings, Investor and Managing Partner · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:01
  OK, good morning. We are continuing with Elko
• 0:05
  service. We are on KUF Einzion.
• 0:08
  We're beginning to read inside see if bet.
• 0:13
  So again, very short intro, again, this is the case of ISCA
• 0:19
  when we're doing, whenever you're going to make a deal, a
• 0:23
  business dealing, you have the investing partner and then you
• 0:26
  have the managing partner or the investor and the manager and all
• 0:31
  of the item belongs to the investor, but all the work is
• 0:35
  being done by the manager. Now, when do we see again this
• 0:41
  applies really when you see the Gemara and the Shah Khanarak,
• 0:44
  anytime there's money or objects involved, either one, whether
• 0:49
  anytime there's a loan, but it's not just a loan where now the
• 0:53
  guy's going to do whatever he wants and there's guaranteed.
• 0:55
  All the akarias is on the normal loan.
• 0:58
  All the Aquarius is on the borrower and he's guaranteeing
• 1:02
  an amount to pay back here. It's a business arrangement
• 1:06
  where the profits they're going to share the profits from from
• 1:10
  what comes out of it. So that it applies anytime money
• 1:14
  is given or an item is given. As Ruben's example was if you're
• 1:20
  going to give two barrels of wine, the the investor owns 2
• 1:25
  barrels of wine, he's going to give two barrels to the to the
• 1:30
  manager, partner, managing partner, and he's going to sell
• 1:33
  the wine. Then he's going to return the
• 1:35
  empty wooden barrels. He's going to return all the
• 1:38
  money, the principal, and they're going to share the
• 1:41
  profits. So in any time you have any kind
• 1:45
  of a business deal in this, in this fashion, whether it's
• 1:48
  objects or money, we apply ISCA that we say to Kanaz Kazal, it's
• 1:54
  50, everything is basically 5050 responsibility, profit loss and
• 1:59
  everything. There's going to be a caveat
• 2:00
  we're about to get to. But of course that's a stom
• 2:06
  case. They could make an arrangement
• 2:08
  where the percentages and everything is different.
• 2:11
  That's fine. That's, but that's the stum
• 2:14
  case. If they don't specify or if the
• 2:16
  Minogue is explicitly one way, then obviously that also make a
• 2:20
  difference on the proportions on the percentages.
• 2:24
  But OK, so that's the main principle.
• 2:26
  Now this doesn't apply when giving over land and giving over
• 2:30
  Karka. It doesn't apply this Takana
• 2:33
  Khazal of Khetzi Khetzi because it's unlikely that any major
• 2:37
  catastrophic damage and loss is going to happen to the land.
• 2:40
  So Khazal never made this Takana to protect the, the, the noting
• 2:47
  the investor. Also, this is different than our
• 2:50
  case in Olive. Our case that we just had is
• 2:55
  when this this Iska is when you're giving him money to sell
• 3:01
  it, to invest in this, to use this item to to use it to invest
• 3:06
  and to making a business deal. And he can sell it and do
• 3:09
  whatever he wants and then he has to return the principal and
• 3:12
  they share the profits In Aleph. You gave him a piece, not a
• 3:17
  piece. You gave him an animal.
• 3:19
  The case was an animal. Don't get confused with land by
• 3:22
  marriages. It's son Barzos the the the
• 3:27
  expression, but you gave him an animal and you're not giving him
• 3:31
  the animal to sell. You're giving him the animal to
• 3:34
  hold on to as a showmare and to use it.
• 3:37
  So there there's again, there's no there's no concept of isca.
• 3:40
  We discussed yesterday the ramifications of potential ribis
• 3:45
  based on responsibility. You know, it might be there
• 3:48
  slightly to be there abundant, but that's anyway no here, no
• 3:51
  there. And I believe it would be the
• 3:54
  same thing. If you give someone your car or
• 3:56
  your truck and he's going to make money out of using your
• 3:59
  truck, you give them here, here's my my truck, my car, go
• 4:03
  use it and we're going to share the profits.
• 4:06
  So I would believe it's the same thing as Aleph where we don't
• 4:09
  apply the principle of ISCA is ISCA is when you're giving him
• 4:12
  something to sell primarily to do whatever he needs to make a
• 4:17
  profit out of it. So let's read it inside Hanotein
• 4:20
  maala kavero batarat iska person gives him cash.
• 4:24
  The hainu shahetzi akhayat al anotein vahetzi al Amakabel
• 4:28
  where based on the Khanas hazal, we say half of the Aquarius is
• 4:32
  on the notain and half of the responsibility is on the MI
• 4:36
  Kabel. 5050 asur, this is asur as of now.
• 4:42
  Why Shakal iska palga milva Palga pikadon Because any Iska
• 4:47
  Khazal said it's half and half. So what happens?
• 4:50
  Why is this going to be asur Medin ribis?
• 4:54
  Why? All right, Pasha sister
• 4:56
  abandoned venem suchitarea bhela ka pikadon bishwil helika milva.
• 5:01
  Because what happens when they do this deal of khetzi?
• 5:05
  Khetzi. Effectively, what's happening,
• 5:08
  the owner of the the owner is generating half of his profits
• 5:14
  from the well, all of his profits from the half of the
• 5:17
  piccadon, the borrower, the managing partners creating all
• 5:22
  of his profits from the from the mill of 1/2 because that's his,
• 5:27
  so he gets to keep all and if so that's he gets all of his profit
• 5:31
  from the mill of it. Now what happens?
• 5:34
  So in other words, we have a loan over here, the man, the
• 5:37
  investors giving them the managing partner, 50% of it as a
• 5:43
  loan. So there's a loan, right?
• 5:45
  When anytime there's a loan, there's potential for Ribis.
• 5:49
  So where is the Ribis he's paying?
• 5:52
  He actually is paying something to the, to the to the, to the,
• 5:57
  to the investor for the rights of profiting and using this
• 6:03
  half. He is paying Ribis to the
• 6:06
  investor. How's he paying ribis?
• 6:08
  Ribis can be in the form of service or money or objects.
• 6:13
  You can pay back Ribis in a numerous ways and it'll be Ribis
• 6:17
  could even be OK. OK, so fine.
• 6:19
  So how do we see? So where's he, where's the
• 6:22
  Ribis? He's working for free with the
• 6:27
  Picadon half so that the the the investor is making all the
• 6:33
  profit from his picadon. Well, he's working, he's doing a
• 6:38
  service for free for the investor.
• 6:41
  Why would he work for free? Because he's getting a loan of
• 6:45
  Amilva. So him working on the Picadon is
• 6:49
  how he's paying the ribis on his on the halva on the Amilva half.
• 6:52
  It's not. Only the situation where he
• 6:54
  doesn't get the profit. He's getting the money's coming
• 7:01
  out of the profit, but they're sharing at 5050.
• 7:04
  We'll digest it maybe more afterwards.
• 7:06
  But what's happening is he's of course he's getting profit.
• 7:11
  I mean, it's only a problem if he if there's a profit, correct?
• 7:15
  If they if nobody makes any money, then it turns out there
• 7:19
  was no Rivas. Maybe.
• 7:30
  OK, fine, maybe. Maybe.
• 7:33
  OK, I hear it. Fine.
• 7:34
  Let's let's read inside. That's the Ribes.
• 7:43
  He's paying back. He's working for free so that
• 7:45
  the guy makes money. So what happens is they have to
• 7:59
  the in order to avoid Ribis, what we have to do is the one
• 8:10
  who's the managing partner has to make a little bit of profit.
• 8:15
  That could be a salaried amount, could be a designated amount, it
• 8:18
  could be a percentage amount, but effectively it's not.
• 8:22
  The profit is no longer going to be 5050, it'll be 4555.
• 8:28
  It'll be 49 to 51. But the managing partner must
• 8:35
  benefit more than 5050 more than the investor because he has to
• 8:40
  get paid for his work otherwise. So that when he him working for
• 8:46
  the Picadon and giving the guy 50% of the profit for him
• 8:50
  working or all the profit of the Picadon for him working on the
• 8:54
  Picadon, he's not doing it because of the loan.
• 8:58
  We don't want there to be Ribis. He's doing it because he's
• 9:00
  making an extra $50.00 an hour, $100.00 an hour, one percent,
• 9:05
  5%, whatever the arrangement is, it has to be something.
• 9:08
  Now if you wake up after the fact.
• 9:10
  So then we say it has to be based on how much it's worth it
• 9:14
  for him not to work. He has his job, he's not going
• 9:18
  to work his job. So therefore he's taking off and
• 9:20
  working for you. Therefore, he has to get paid
• 9:22
  accordingly. The E mayallo ASIC akhir
• 9:26
  kolshuhulit Asik boimoto oops Philo hello dinar.
• 9:39
  Now if he has busy with, he's busy with another job and so it
• 9:44
  doesn't really look like he's doing much for the other guy.
• 9:47
  It's not really noticeable. So then it's enough just to
• 9:51
  charge an extra dinar an maybe an extra dollar, whatever the
• 9:55
  custom is. We'll see by I don't know if
• 9:57
  we'll see, but by Hetter Iska, sometimes you just charge an
• 10:01
  extra dollar as it's more symbolic of of of avac ribis.
• 10:08
  So therefore anyways, we just want to avoid, make sure there's
• 10:11
  no ribis over here. So then you don't have to charge
• 10:17
  him as much. In other words, if he's busy
• 10:19
  with another job, so it could be, so typically it's referring
• 10:32
  to here he's work if he's already working for the Malvet.
• 10:36
  So then for sure you don't have to charge much because there's
• 10:40
  not NICAR what he's working for. He works for him anyway.
• 10:43
  It's not and he's getting paid anyway.
• 10:45
  It's not NICAR that this he's working for the Picadon in order
• 10:48
  for the Milba. So it's totally not Nikar.
• 10:51
  And therefore you just have to charge a little bit.
• 10:56
  And regardless what it is, you just divide it according to the
• 10:59
  original arrangement. Let's say 5050 also, hey, you'll
• 11:09
  get the tiles. How to read this?
• 11:11
  Basically, he says all of the profit goes to you.
• 11:14
  In other words, you get your full 50%, but I'm going to pay
• 11:19
  you an extra third or an extra 10% and that's going to be your
• 11:26
  wages. In other words, whatever you
• 11:27
  arrange is is fine as long as it's clear that he's making the
• 11:32
  managing partner has to make a little more profit than the
• 11:34
  regular. All the rebuch, the regular 50%
• 11:38
  is what it's referring to Hoel Vieshua Asik Akhar Hareza Mater
• 11:42
  since he's busy working with him on some other level.
• 11:45
  It's not it's not Nikar and it looks like he's when he's
• 11:50
  working. It doesn't look like he's
• 11:51
  working for the Picadon for the sake of the Alva.
• 11:53
  Looks like he's working for him for his other job and just.
• 12:01
  Getting an extra percentage is not enough.
• 12:05
  Well, it has to be a fair wage or Yeah, it has to get paid.
• 12:09
  Aware, I think if you do it in advance.
• 12:11
  Here. Here.
• 12:15
  Well, yeah, when you get to Gilmore, we'll see.
• 12:18
  We'll keep reading. You have to read the whole
• 12:20
  picture. You see the Yafsil Mehta.
• 12:24
  And if he loses, if the if the property, whatever the item that
• 12:28
  goes down, it's ruined, then they share the losses via meet
• 12:34
  Asik. But it still has to be where you
• 12:35
  share the losses. That's 5050.
• 12:38
  We Maya meet Asik Ariso. Now, if the guy the manager was,
• 12:43
  he was, he works for him as an Arisa with something else.
• 12:53
  And if he's in Aris where he's working for him for a land and
• 12:57
  they make the percentage off of what comes out of the land.
• 13:00
  So then he has a responsibility to the land, to the owner, to
• 13:04
  the noting, to the investor with this other dealing.
• 13:07
  And then since he's a meshuba to him, he doesn't even have to add
• 13:11
  anything Hagah. But sorry, leot call Hagah
• 13:16
  picadon Allah noting the reiterates what we just read.
• 13:21
  Make sure. But still he has to be when it
• 13:24
  comes to the losses, the responsibility, it still must be
• 13:28
  50% on the notain afilo al Qaeda onsin even onsin the LO kiesh
• 13:35
  Mekilian omatirin de mixas akayas and we're not make up by
• 13:38
  a partial akayas. Let's read gimel.
• 13:40
  This is a continuation by medevarium.
• 13:44
  I'm worrying, when do we say this?
• 13:47
  That yeah, that the proper scar. Batala Bishalo Pasak emo Bichila
• 13:51
  to ASIC when they didn't make an arrangement how much extra the
• 13:56
  manager is going to make. We're working on behalf of the
• 14:01
  noting. He told them we're just going to
• 14:05
  work 5050 fifty, 50% profits. That's great.
• 14:10
  They're all excited to work together.
• 14:11
  They have a great idea. One's investing the item, one's
• 14:14
  doing the work about in Pasaki Mobile as ASIC.
• 14:19
  But Dovre ya do have a feel of a dinar mutter.
• 14:22
  But if before they started working, when they took upon the
• 14:25
  job, he said from the very beginning, it's 5050, but I'm
• 14:30
  going to from that 5050, I'm going to pay you one dinar or
• 14:35
  $1.00 for the whole thing. Obviously it's a little bit
• 14:38
  ridiculous, but that's 100% mutter because it's it's
• 14:44
  everything here is Dirabhana and we just want to remove the
• 14:48
  concept of ribis that we don't want it to be looked like Alva
• 14:52
  or you learn from this case for other cases.
• 14:55
  OK, Hagar mikozai kisha echa no teina maot.
• 14:58
  This is when one of them is giving the money, right?
• 15:03
  You have one investor of a inko echa natan maot afila echad meet
• 15:07
  Asik afila echad meet Asik levad.
• 15:11
  But if they're both investing, even though only one is
• 15:14
  managing, only one is doing all the work, but they're both
• 15:17
  investing into the into the business.
• 15:20
  Incan iska. This is not the iska that we're
• 15:24
  talking about Allahabad Keshitzva alma is that's a
• 15:28
  partnership. The difference right when we
• 15:30
  said it, the whole thing of Iska, which is when Hester Iska,
• 15:34
  one person's lending money, this whole arrangement of this Simon
• 15:39
  is when it's Isco, when there's one investor and one manager.
• 15:45
  Otherwise it's a regular partnership.
• 15:47
  Fine, let's go to Dalit. Can they avoid a problem by
• 15:51
  instead of the investment investment partner giving a
• 15:55
  dollar as wage the managing? Partner, can you ask me?
• 15:59
  I don't giving. A dollar as investment?
• 16:02
  Sounds like in I I don't understand, sorry.
• 16:08
  It's Dalid Anotain Mala Caviro. OK, the person he's married to
• 16:15
  his friend for business, Stam Asik Baham Asik.
• 16:26
  Lower OK, so they make an arrangement normal case, which
• 16:30
  turns into a case of Iska. They don't specify what he's
• 16:33
  going to make for wages. And now when they come to split
• 16:36
  the profits, he doesn't want to pay him for all of his scar of
• 16:44
  work every single day. What he put into it.
• 16:51
  No, it doesn't. It's not a part.
• 16:52
  It's the regular iska. It means for the what he worked
• 16:55
  for him, for each other maybe and he if he had another work,
• 17:04
  Laura and he was working for him anyway, he doesn't want to pay
• 17:09
  him even the dinar. Yes, yes, Khara MIT Asik
• 17:14
  bachhezi hapikadon Schwish revach hapikadon Shu revach one
• 17:26
  second. So what do we say?
• 17:33
  We say some profits also could be a shwish skartircha.
• 17:39
  He could say I'm not paying you a full wage per day, but I will
• 17:43
  pay you. Basically it comes out to be 1/6
• 17:47
  of the profit or a shwish of the half, the sheaf of the half of
• 17:54
  the piccadon, which is 1/6 of the whole rebbe.
• 17:58
  If you got Imirviko, he told Hamitasik.
• 18:02
  So we're not going to spell it out on a piece of paper
• 18:05
  mathematically, but what comes out is the following.
• 18:09
  Imirviko, he told Mitasik. Schne Schliche, however, comes
• 18:15
  out that the the Mitasik, the manager actually doesn't get
• 18:22
  5050 for all of all the work he has to get a scar Battala.
• 18:27
  He gets 2/3 of the profits. Why 2/3 of the profit again?
• 18:32
  Because that third is 1 paying and one gaining that 1/6 for the
• 18:38
  scar of doing the work for the mill that otherwise it'd be for
• 18:42
  the OR the denoting for the off of the Pikadan.
• 18:45
  Otherwise, again, it'd be a problem of ribis.
• 18:47
  So in other words we said before the managing partner always has
• 18:50
  to make more money then the straight 5050 and here it could
• 18:55
  be 2/3. I guess you can choose which
• 18:59
  one. Not 100% but I believe that's
• 19:01
  how it works. OK so he pays 2, pays him 2/3 of
• 19:06
  the profits and that avoids ribis.
• 19:08
  So again, shaheim shaheim melve ushto sareva biskarshinita
• 19:20
  asekwe bikada so nimzahakul shne shlisha revach.
• 19:24
  That's how it works out. If you if you want, we can
• 19:27
  figure it out on paper afterwards, but it it works out.
• 19:30
  So OK, so for some it's real simple and for some it's real
• 19:33
  complicated. But that is what it is.
• 19:36
  The itoval Hamas shlish revach. And therefore the one who who
• 19:43
  owns it only makes 1/3 of the profit, the IM Pakhto
• 19:48
  Yasiramatasek Shlish Haperhat. And if it goes down in value the
• 19:54
  managing partner one second, Shalisha Pekhat, he loses 1/3 of
• 20:00
  what goes down. Sheree Ukhayev Pekhetzi of
• 20:03
  Pekhat really is Hayev in half Melva because half is the Melva
• 20:10
  but he's still making a 6th profit on the on the for the
• 20:18
  scar of them working. From the half of the picadon,
• 20:22
  the Nimza Shinishar Allah of meh.
• 20:25
  So he has ends up has effectively he loses 1/3 and the
• 20:35
  investing partner, so he only makes 1/3 and he actually can
• 20:39
  lose 2/3. That losing third by the way,
• 20:42
  that happens to be a mahalo could be shown him.
• 20:44
  And oh why is it relevant. The Shah points out that the
• 20:49
  Sholkhanarak is following the Rambam and he doesn't understand
• 20:53
  why because normally we paska like the riff and the rush
• 20:58
  against the Rambam. So he leaves it basically, if I
• 21:01
  understand if I remember correctly, is it Sarah even on
• 21:03
  the Sholkhanarak? And it really should be the the
• 21:06
  one who loses loses the they share the loss 5050 a 100%
• 21:12
  equally. And that's that's the SAK of the
• 21:16
  Shah. But he points out everything
• 21:19
  until now, everything on this Alaka really depends on the
• 21:21
  minagamako. OK, should we stop?
• 21:25
  All right, fine, We'll stop.