Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark with Costume Designer, Deborah Nadoolman Landis

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Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark with Costume Designer, Deborah Nadoolman Landis · The Art of Costume Podcast

• 0:06
  Hello, welcome to the Art of Costume podcast.
• 0:08
  I'm Elizabeth Joy Glass. And I am Professor Spencer
• 0:11
  Williams. Oh, hello, professor.
• 0:15
  I have my associate's degree in Archaeology, so very excited to
• 0:20
  be here. That's absolutely what we went
• 0:23
  to college for, 100%. Hello Elizabeth, It's so good to
• 0:28
  see you. I haven't seen you since we went
• 0:30
  to a Stardew Valley concert the other day.
• 0:32
  I. Know highlight of the week,
• 0:35
  honestly. Honestly, it was so much fun.
• 0:38
  We were in our we were living our best nerdy lives.
• 0:42
  I. Shall say I've never like zenned
• 0:45
  out so hard. During the concert, actually
• 0:49
  during the second-half, we were kind of checking in on each
• 0:52
  other, make sure we weren't, Yeah, gain a little, a little
• 0:54
  napping. Yeah, yeah.
• 0:56
  But it was, it was so fun. It was fun to see all the other
• 1:00
  nerds. It was a good time and I've also
• 1:04
  been very excited to continue our Our 80s Adventure Month.
• 1:09
  Yes. It's been so much of an
• 1:12
  adventure. We have returned to our old
• 1:14
  format of the virtual Zoom setting just for this very
• 1:18
  episode, which has been a lot of fun signing up in the
• 1:22
  background. Yes, it has so much fun, but not
• 1:29
  as much fun. Dare I call it the one 80s
• 1:34
  action movie to rule them all, not action adventure movie?
• 1:38
  This is to me, like the ultimate adventure film.
• 1:41
  We are talking about Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the
• 1:45
  Lost Ark. Or to some it was originally
• 1:48
  called Raiders of the Lost Ark. I've already seen your comments.
• 1:52
  There's a lot of the terrible things happening in this world,
• 1:55
  so please do not send me hate mail for calling it Indiana
• 1:58
  Jones, The Raiders of the Lost Ark, I don't care.
• 2:01
  Yeah, it's, it's just, it's in, it's how most people know it,
• 2:07
  like. We'll be all right.
• 2:09
  We'll be all right. Also, you nerds, they weren't
• 2:13
  called episodes 4-5 and six originally.
• 2:16
  So. Calm down.
• 2:20
  But I was so excited to rewatch this film.
• 2:23
  Actually, I'm not even sure I know.
• 2:25
  OK, I think I've seen it before, but it's been a very, very long
• 2:29
  time. I've seen Temple of Doom like a
• 2:31
  million times. So it's so excited to go back,
• 2:33
  rewatch his film. And I, I loved it.
• 2:37
  It is, to me, like a near perfect film.
• 2:40
  So I'm very excited to talk about it.
• 2:42
  It is definitely one of those films where you're like, oh,
• 2:46
  there's not much that can be improved here.
• 2:48
  Yeah, it's fun, the acting's great, everything looks
• 2:55
  incredible, and the costumes are top notch by one of the best.
• 3:02
  Really. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't get
• 3:04
  more iconic than this film, but before we get into all the
• 3:08
  costumes, I'll start us off with a summary in case someone forgot
• 3:11
  what Raiders of the Lost Ark is all about.
• 3:13
  Raiders of the Lost Ark is an epic tell directed by Steven
• 3:16
  Spielberg, in which an intrepid archaeologist tries to beat a
• 3:20
  band of Nazis to a unique religious relic which is central
• 3:24
  to their plans for world domination.
• 3:26
  Those pesky Nazis battling against a snake phobia and a
• 3:31
  ex-girlfriend. Indiana Jones is in constant
• 3:33
  peril, making hair's breath escapes at every turn in this
• 3:37
  celebration of the innocent adventure movies of an earlier
• 3:41
  era. And that is Indiana Jones and
• 3:44
  the Raiders of the Lost Ark. If you have not seen it, get
• 3:48
  yourself to Disney Plus. Get some.
• 3:51
  This is a popcorn movie. Make yourself some popcorn.
• 3:54
  Maybe a little bit of hot chocolate, a little drinky
• 3:57
  drink, sit back and relax. There's a lot of drinky drinks
• 4:02
  in this movie there. I say that.
• 4:04
  That's true. That's true.
• 4:05
  Well, let's be in a costume designer.
• 4:09
  Today we have a legendary costume designer, Deborah
• 4:13
  Natalman Landis. You will know her work from
• 4:18
  Animal House 1941, The Blues Brothers, An American Werewolf
• 4:25
  in London, Trading Places, Michael Jackson's Thriller 3
• 4:31
  Amigos and Coming to America for which she received her Oscar
• 4:37
  nomination. And you, As you and I both know,
• 4:43
  Deborah is a legend in the costume community.
• 4:46
  She is a two term Costume Designer, Guild president, a
• 4:50
  Costume Designer Guild Award winner, and the founding
• 4:54
  director of the David C Copley Center for the Study of Costume
• 4:59
  Design. She is the real deal.
• 5:02
  I mean, she's the source. I feel like every episode we've
• 5:05
  ever done, you know, there's always some sort of Deborah
• 5:08
  Landis research out there to help us through it.
• 5:12
  We. We have her books.
• 5:14
  We have her books, we've been to her events.
• 5:16
  I love her UCLA sketch the screen events that we get to go
• 5:20
  through every year. I mean, I, I look up to
• 5:23
  Professor Landis there, I say because she is the costume
• 5:28
  historian. So she's paved a way for you and
• 5:32
  I in ways with our little podcast.
• 5:34
  Absolutely, absolutely getting getting her books have been some
• 5:40
  of like the highlights of my Christmas.
• 5:43
  Over the years. Because she just, she loves
• 5:49
  costume design and costume designers and preserving that
• 5:54
  history and there there's not a lot of people out there who care
• 5:58
  as much as she does to, to do that work and have it recorded
• 6:04
  for the rest of time. Yeah, and, you know, and she's
• 6:08
  lived there, and she knows these experiences and she knows what
• 6:11
  her colleagues, you know, are going through and what they need
• 6:14
  and what they deserve. So a true champion Deborah
• 6:17
  Landis is. And I am so happy to say that in
• 6:22
  the preparation for our Raiders of the Lost Ark episode, I
• 6:26
  actually got to meet with Professor Landis.
• 6:29
  And I, I have to admit, I was a little nervous because, I mean,
• 6:34
  you know, as someone who I've called myself like an amateur
• 6:37
  historian, I've had to really prepare for this interview to
• 6:41
  make sure I had my facts straight.
• 6:43
  And yes, we had a little chat about Raiders of Lost Ark and it
• 6:47
  was so much fun. I got so much good information
• 6:50
  out of her about writers of the Lost Ark.
• 6:53
  We talked all about, you know, of course, the iconic Indiana
• 6:56
  Jones silhouette, the hat, which I to me, I think is the most
• 7:02
  famous hat in film history. I can't think of a more iconic
• 7:07
  hat. And it's just fun to really get
• 7:10
  to spend like that one-on-one time with Professor Landis
• 7:12
  because, you know, obviously we've seen her on events and
• 7:15
  whatnot, but I've never really gotten to talk with her and I've
• 7:18
  only ever seen her interview other people.
• 7:20
  So it's fun for me to kind of interview her for once.
• 7:25
  So we're going to take a little break and play that interview.
• 7:29
  And when we come back, Elizabeth and I will get to chat about a
• 7:33
  few costumes, our one cost to rule them all.
• 7:36
  And I'm very happy to say that at the end of this episode,
• 7:39
  we'll be revealing our spooky season.
• 7:43
  So I'm. Very excited for that.
• 7:47
  So let's take a little break, shall we?
• 7:53
  Hi, I'm Dan who does all the magic behind the scenes.
• 7:56
  I wanted to say thank you. And if you want to support the
• 7:58
  show even farther, go to tpublic.com/user slash the Art
• 8:05
  of Costume where you can buy a couple variations of our logo on
• 8:09
  T-shirts, mugs and stickers. Also, be sure to leave a like
• 8:14
  comment and subscribe. And if you're an audio listener,
• 8:17
  leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast.
• 8:20
  Now back to the show. I am so beyond honored and
• 8:30
  excited. Welcome.
• 8:31
  Today's guest. She is a costume designer,
• 8:33
  Academy Award nominee, historian, 2 term president of
• 8:37
  the Costume Designers Guild Local 892, professor and
• 8:41
  founding director and chair of the David C Copley Center for
• 8:43
  Costume Design. Please welcome Professor Deborah
• 8:46
  Nederman Landis. Hello.
• 8:51
  Thanks for thanks for having me on your podcast.
• 8:54
  Of course, we've been so excited to talk to you.
• 8:57
  We're all such big fans over here.
• 8:59
  I mean, we have like all of your books.
• 9:00
  I feel like for every single podcast, we somehow end up
• 9:03
  reading something that you've researched so.
• 9:05
  I mean, you're, you're the source.
• 9:08
  We're excited to talk to you. I just want to say something.
• 9:12
  Is that how delighted I am that there is the Art of Costume
• 9:18
  podcast and that you don't focus on the contribution of costume
• 9:23
  designers? You know, Spencer and I, I
• 9:26
  started to get serious about this, but it's my big passion.
• 9:31
  So it, it's not just costume designers, but it's really the
• 9:34
  contribution of the individuals who make it happen.
• 9:37
  And that the general public is sort of getting an idea now,
• 9:42
  especially within the last 10 years because of podcasts like
• 9:46
  these, that costume designers can address the adoring public
• 9:51
  to let them know who is really responsible for what they see on
• 9:55
  screen. So I wanted to thank you, too.
• 9:57
  Oh, I. Really appreciate that.
• 9:58
  And actually this was going to be my last question, but maybe
• 10:01
  we should just get into it now. You know, like you said, we, we
• 10:05
  love costume design. We love costume designers,
• 10:07
  illustrators, assistant costumers, the whole 9 yards.
• 10:11
  And I just love supporting, you know, these people, these
• 10:13
  artisans in their work. So I was going to ask you, you
• 10:16
  know, as someone who's a historian, why costume design
• 10:20
  and why do you believe costume design is so integral to the
• 10:23
  filmmaking television process? I.
• 10:26
  Think it's, I think other than actually don't repeat this, but
• 10:33
  I think that my belief is that costume design is about the
• 10:39
  human condition. And when I teach costume design,
• 10:43
  I don't teach about clothes because clothes are really
• 10:48
  secondary to what our role is. And and if stories, and if
• 10:53
  engaging stories are about people, they're not about the
• 10:58
  landscape, they're not about the locations, they're not about the
• 11:01
  sets, I'm sorry to say. They're not about the visual
• 11:05
  effects. What makes a story great is if
• 11:09
  if the audience US engages with the people and so our role is
• 11:15
  just sincerely to help bring those people to life and to help
• 11:19
  the actors, the performers transform into the people in the
• 11:22
  story. And that's really pure at the
• 11:25
  end. And nothing makes me crazier.
• 11:28
  You know, there's an expression your bet noir.
• 11:31
  So my bet noir is fashion and film, you know, that's that's
• 11:36
  where I draw the line. And so I really care about my
• 11:40
  colleagues and, and want that recognition and want that value
• 11:46
  and want that paycheck that really recompenses our
• 11:52
  colleagues, my friends for the contribution that they make to
• 11:56
  movies in the past, present and future.
• 11:59
  So I know that's a lot, but that's that's how I really feel.
• 12:03
  Yeah. Well, Speaking of colleagues,
• 12:06
  today is about Raiders of the Lost Ark, and you have a certain
• 12:09
  famous colleague that you worked with on a few films.
• 12:12
  We're talking about Steven Spielberg.
• 12:14
  When it came to Raiders, Spielberg apparently described
• 12:17
  the script as a Big B movie and pointed to the, That's right,
• 12:20
  Incas, which was from 1954, as a big key inspiration.
• 12:24
  You also previously worked with Spielberg before on 1941.
• 12:28
  So tell me about that collaboration and how that
• 12:31
  relationship kind of carried forward from 1941 into Raiders
• 12:35
  of the Lost Ark. So 1941 was a a wonderful
• 12:42
  experience and I have to say I was 26.
• 12:48
  I was 26 and Steve was maybe 33, right?
• 12:56
  So we were the young people and we were very close friends at
• 13:05
  that time during we became close friends during the making of
• 13:09
  1941. And even then he understood that
• 13:16
  once he decided he trusted me. And I guess he had decided he
• 13:20
  trusted me when he saw Animal House because he really fell in
• 13:23
  love with Animal House and had never had a costume designer
• 13:27
  before. So, you know, Vicki Sanchez,
• 13:30
  bless her heart, who's still around, is a costume designer.
• 13:33
  But she really worked as a costumer on or the key
• 13:37
  supervisor, which pretty much she did the same thing without
• 13:41
  the title on close Encounters. But he had never had a costume
• 13:46
  designer before. But I think he going into 1941
• 13:49
  and having seen Animal House, he understood I'm going to get this
• 13:53
  person. And he cold called me.
• 13:55
  He didn't know John. He called me to come in and we
• 14:00
  immediately clicked and, and I, I think he, we were very, very
• 14:06
  close. We became very close and and I
• 14:11
  don't think that's an exaggeration because I think
• 14:13
  when you're close, you sort of can help yourself to people's
• 14:16
  fridge. You know, you know, like you can
• 14:19
  come to their house and go to their fridge.
• 14:21
  That's close, right. So going into Raiders,
• 14:26
  unbeknownst to me, he had I I didn't know George Lucas and and
• 14:33
  Steve had this other relationship with George Lucas
• 14:36
  and they developed this idea of Raiders of Lost Ark and that's
• 14:41
  really when I was off in Chicago making the Blues brothers with
• 14:45
  my husband. John Landis became my husband
• 14:48
  John Landis, who that's something else like, you know,
• 14:53
  met him through friends in high school.
• 14:55
  We'll. Do another podcast that's.
• 14:56
  Another story. I'm just trying to get through
• 14:58
  this quickly. So so when we were making the
• 15:02
  Blues Brothers, I got this call from Steve saying, OK, well,
• 15:05
  we're going to make Raiders lost.
• 15:07
  And I didn't even understand what the plot was.
• 15:10
  There was the the Ark of the Covenant.
• 15:13
  It's so weird. Imagine getting that call,
• 15:16
  Deborah. It's about the Ark of the
• 15:18
  Covenant and you know. There's some Nazis and you're
• 15:22
  like, OK. I at that.
• 15:23
  Point I hadn't been but mitzvahed, so I really didn't
• 15:26
  know about that Ark of Covenant and I didn't know anyway.
• 15:30
  So when I came to work for the first time, it was at the Egg
• 15:34
  Company, which was a building that George had bought and and
• 15:38
  remodeled on Lankershim across from Universal, very, very, very
• 15:42
  luxuriously. And back in the day.
• 15:45
  And it was so different at that time, you walked into the
• 15:48
  building and you smell chocolate chip cookies because of course
• 15:52
  he had a, a big community kitchen with a cook making
• 15:56
  chocolate cookies for everyone. And I walked into the bathroom,
• 16:00
  and I know this is paraphrasing Haxel Foley, but this bathroom
• 16:05
  was nicer than my apartment. So I.
• 16:08
  Walked into the bathroom, it had these gorgeous rugs.
• 16:12
  I couldn't believe the money that was spent.
• 16:14
  So we started and and I had a very clear brief.
• 16:21
  Now, what's interesting about it is that in my memory, I did not
• 16:27
  see any of those very famous storyboards.
• 16:32
  So I was not shown any storyboards.
• 16:36
  So my response to the script was really, I read the script, it
• 16:45
  had a lot of locations like Brazil and, and then and then
• 16:51
  North Africa. And I really depend upon the
• 16:55
  director to tell me the story because Spencer, you know that
• 17:03
  you can have exactly the same words of every script.
• 17:07
  But if you give it to Steve Spielberg, it's gonna Steven
• 17:09
  Spielberg, it's gonna be 1 movie.
• 17:11
  If you give it to Wes Anderson or Tim Burton, I'll be right.
• 17:15
  So he told me the story. And then and then we watched
• 17:20
  movies together and we watched, as you said, we watched.
• 17:26
  Is it the secret of the amateurs I need?
• 17:27
  Yeah, The. Secret of the Incas.
• 17:30
  And we watch Greatest Show on Earth.
• 17:32
  And, you know, I kept seeing the leather jacket with the brown
• 17:35
  fedora on Charlton Heston. So he said, yeah, that's that's
• 17:39
  it, That's what I want. And he even drew me a picture of
• 17:42
  it. So yeah, it was quite clear what
• 17:45
  he wanted. And the the original question
• 17:49
  before I went off was about the relationship.
• 17:54
  So 1941 was a failure and Stevens first failure and it was
• 18:01
  a big failure. In fact, he didn't even come to
• 18:04
  the premiere. John and I took his mother and
• 18:09
  his sister, his mother and his sister to the premiere.
• 18:13
  He he knew it was going to he went to Japan with Amy Irving.
• 18:18
  He knew it was going to be what it was.
• 18:21
  And, and it was very traumatic for him.
• 18:25
  So going into Raiders, he didn't want to spend money.
• 18:29
  He was incredibly cautious. He handed over the reins of the
• 18:34
  production to Howard Kazanjian, A producer, and to George and
• 18:41
  and we went about making the movie.
• 18:42
  Wow, so a lot went into the beginning of this film.
• 18:47
  And. Obviously we have to talk about
• 18:49
  though, Harrison Ford, who at this point is having AI, would
• 18:53
  call it the Harrison Ford Renaissance.
• 18:54
  I mean, we just saw Star Wars, which is obviously huge.
• 18:57
  Blade Runner is right around the corner, which is, you know, one
• 19:00
  of my all time favorite costume films.
• 19:02
  Also, what can you tell me about working with Harrison Ford and
• 19:06
  how he may or may not have been involved in the process of
• 19:10
  finding Deanna Jones? Well.
• 19:12
  I don't know if he was in the process of finding.
• 19:15
  I think he he was just happy to be working right.
• 19:19
  You know, he was happy to have gotten the call that Tom Selleck
• 19:23
  had to go back to Hawaii to do the magnet series and he just
• 19:28
  showed up. Han Solo shuffled in, you know,
• 19:31
  story many times. We were so profoundly
• 19:34
  disappointed, and that's no lie. And I mean, have you met
• 19:40
  Harrison, You know? He's.
• 19:43
  He's quite a quiet, reticent guy and quite grumpy.
• 19:46
  Can be very, very grumpy. He's quite.
• 19:49
  Famously also like, I trust a designer though.
• 19:51
  Tell me what you want me to wear and I'll wear it and I'll kind
• 19:54
  of I'll, you know, it's about what's on the page and more So
• 19:57
  what he thinks and what more what you think.
• 19:59
  Yeah, he's he's a wonderful man. I mean, I love, I loved him.
• 20:05
  And it it's too bad that both of us were, were involved.
• 20:12
  Yeah, I, I, I loved him and I and he trusted me.
• 20:18
  And remember, he was the oldest person on the set.
• 20:21
  He was 39. He had had a big life and a he
• 20:27
  was already in going into his second marriage, right?
• 20:32
  So he, he had had a big life. He had been on television.
• 20:36
  He was a working Carpenter, which is how he got into acting
• 20:39
  to begin with. And he is just a lovely guy.
• 20:42
  But the costume, Spencer, May I say that if you were available
• 20:48
  after Tom Selleck fell out, I would have put the hat and the
• 20:53
  jacket on you, Spencer, Because whoever was going to be or my
• 21:00
  husband, I, whoever was going to be Indiana Jones, was going to
• 21:04
  be wearing a brown jacket, khaki pants, Red Wing boots and a
• 21:10
  brown fedora. Yeah, whoever it was, whoever
• 21:13
  walked in. So it happened to be Han Solo
• 21:16
  who walked in and. Right.
• 21:17
  That was not changing regardless.
• 21:19
  Well then let's talk about the brown leather jacket and the
• 21:22
  khakis and we'll talk about the hat separately in a second
• 21:26
  because that deserves a, its own moment.
• 21:28
  One thing that I love so much about Raiders of Lost Ark and I,
• 21:31
  you know, I say this, I feel like in every podcast, my
• 21:33
  favorite part is always the aging and the dying and the
• 21:35
  breakdown of these costumes. Raiders of the Lost Ark really
• 21:39
  is to me like 1 of the 1st movies where you just like, you
• 21:42
  see him appear in that jacket and you're like, oh, he's been
• 21:45
  wearing that thing for 20 years and he wears it on all of his
• 21:48
  digs. I mean, tell me about aging that
• 21:50
  jacket. So, so you, I mean, I've told
• 21:54
  these stories for so long. I, I, I hope it's not too dull,
• 21:59
  but I, I, first of all, I made, I made the jacket.
• 22:03
  I made a complete set at Western Costume Company here in
• 22:07
  Hollywood for in fact, some of your listeners may know, but
• 22:10
  Ruben actually made the leather jacket.
• 22:13
  I made a complete set for Tom Selleck who is more than 6/5.
• 22:18
  He might be even 6X, right? And he is huge.
• 22:21
  He looks like, you know, Jack Reacher that guy.
• 22:26
  And Harrison's only 6/2 and was kind of a slimmer build and so I
• 22:32
  didn't have time to remake any of that By the time I got to
• 22:35
  London and and the Jacobars really custom made for Harrison.
• 22:42
  And my thoughts were the biggest issue was really having it be
• 22:49
  able to be zipped and be tight on the hip.
• 22:52
  And where my design is really different from Anthony Powells,
• 22:55
  who was my very close friend and designed the subsequent 2 films
• 23:01
  was I had a, a brass D ring. So I had breast, a zipper and
• 23:05
  brass D rings at the hip. And the whole idea about that
• 23:09
  jacket was that he could use the whip and have the jacket half
• 23:13
  zipped, which is quite a, quite a trip, quite a trick.
• 23:20
  This was very, very deep. It has a very, very deep inset
• 23:25
  in the back so he could move his his shoulder.
• 23:28
  Well, we only went to London to Emil Street, where we shot six
• 23:36
  weeks before before shooting six weeks.
• 23:41
  And again, costume designers listening, many of them only
• 23:45
  have six weeks to prepare any film.
• 23:49
  And that's part of the part of our challenge is not having
• 23:53
  enough time, of course, not having enough money.
• 23:56
  And why is that? Because because what we do is
• 23:59
  misunderstood and not acknowledged, right?
• 24:02
  Otherwise we'd have more of everything, right?
• 24:04
  So, so Harrison and I got there together and I didn't have a
• 24:09
  jacket for him. And so I only had one jacket and
• 24:16
  one hat ready for the first day of shooting.
• 24:20
  Just got chills. One jacket and it came in my
• 24:24
  luggage. Oh, gosh.
• 24:27
  And we flew to La Rochelle. We flew to Nantes and then went
• 24:31
  to La Rochelle, which is where the submarine bays are, the Nazi
• 24:35
  U boat submarine bays. We used the real location, which
• 24:39
  was, which was very frightening also.
• 24:43
  I mean, I remember there were big red Nazi flags and Steven
• 24:48
  and I were alone down there. And I said to him, as Jews, I
• 24:54
  said, well, I guess we have the last laugh, right?
• 24:58
  I guess. I guess this is the last laugh.
• 25:00
  And remember, it was 1980, so it was quite a long time ago.
• 25:05
  And but it was scary. And we did have chills and it
• 25:09
  was very scary. I mean, it was the first time
• 25:11
  that Steven had ever even dipped into that area, right?
• 25:16
  And so I brought a new jacket and a new hat and trousers and
• 25:23
  shoes and his first change came with me in my own luggage.
• 25:28
  And the night before shooting, I had no time to start.
• 25:31
  And I've told this a million times, but it's absolutely the
• 25:34
  truth that I, Harrison and I, we had dinner with George and
• 25:39
  Howard Kazanjian and Steve and we, we sat by the pool and, and
• 25:44
  I aged the jacket myself. And I, I used what I had.
• 25:48
  I brought mineral oil, I brought sandpaper, I brought a big steel
• 25:54
  brush. I brought lots of racks and I
• 25:59
  did what I could for those, that first sequence.
• 26:02
  And, and you're absolutely right, Spencer, it was supposed
• 26:06
  to be his second skin. He was supposed to have had that
• 26:13
  jacket for so long that even though it was cowhide, it was
• 26:18
  quite stiff. I had to do what I could to
• 26:23
  soften it and to make it look like he had worn it all his
• 26:27
  life. And also giving it to Harrison,
• 26:31
  that really is performance. Yeah, I mean, it's almost like
• 26:33
  you all knew too. There's so many moments where
• 26:35
  you see his shadow appear on a wall or whatever and you just
• 26:38
  see that iconic silhouette. It's like you all knew.
• 26:41
  I just kept thinking about that while re watching it.
• 26:44
  But let's talk about the hat. I mean we have to talk about the
• 26:48
  hat is I always say I feel like it's the most famous hat in film
• 26:52
  history. I can't maybe like Wizard of Oz
• 26:54
  like being like #2. Yes, exactly.
• 26:58
  So how? How did you?
• 27:00
  Settle on this hat for Indiana Jones.
• 27:02
  Was it, as you know, difficult as you would think you would be
• 27:05
  trying to find the most iconic hat in the world?
• 27:08
  Yes, it was. Yes, it was.
• 27:09
  It was absolutely true. And, and it's funny because I
• 27:13
  have had conversations with other designers afterward
• 27:17
  because sometimes I just have to check myself that that I'm not
• 27:21
  crazy or I am not inventing the wheel, that this is how it was
• 27:25
  done. So absolutely the truth.
• 27:29
  Harrison and I were sitting in a fitting room at Berman's and
• 27:34
  Nathan's in Camden Town in London.
• 27:37
  And just like at Western Costume or any costume house, there are
• 27:42
  bins and bins, baskets and boxes of, of fedoras.
• 27:48
  And we, I took them down, we emptied them out.
• 27:52
  So he was kind of ankle deep, knee deep in fedoras.
• 27:56
  And you just sit and try them on and you try them on and men and
• 28:01
  everyone, women too. Nobody can ever find a hat they
• 28:06
  look good in that's. True.
• 28:09
  Any man, any man, and I, any man can never find the right
• 28:15
  baseball cap. And when you find the right
• 28:18
  baseball cap because the bill is too hard, the bill is too soft,
• 28:22
  the crown is too high, it's too polyester.
• 28:25
  When you find the one, it's on your head all the time.
• 28:29
  OK, so I, so we were just doing this and then we kind of found,
• 28:35
  you know, I had to find the right crown, the right high
• 28:38
  crown, the right width of this. This hat was going to be on his
• 28:43
  head the entire film. No pressure.
• 28:50
  And to be flawless, that's. My job.
• 28:53
  It is my job. It is not the performer's job,
• 28:56
  it is my job. And even though it doesn't look
• 28:59
  like my job, it's totally my job.
• 29:02
  So. So I had to find the right width
• 29:05
  brim so the cinematographer wouldn't kill me.
• 29:08
  Was it going to sit on the back of his head?
• 29:10
  So the proportions had to be exactly right and it had to feel
• 29:14
  right. And I, it happened to be on
• 29:18
  Savile Row. And it's, it's fun to hear.
• 29:22
  I, I know I'm, I'm saying this, but you know, it actually
• 29:26
  happened to me. So I'm not talking about
• 29:29
  somebody else. I'm actually the mother.
• 29:31
  So I'm talking about the birth of my child, sort of, I hope
• 29:35
  that's not too extreme and also that it doesn't offend my
• 29:38
  children. I'm walking down, I'm walking
• 29:42
  down Savile Row. And that's where I had
• 29:44
  Harrison's bow ties made, right. I had his bow ties made on
• 29:48
  Savile Row. And, and there was a, a
• 29:52
  wonderful shop, a hat shop. And I walked in.
• 29:57
  Did they have a hat that was right?
• 30:00
  No. Did they have fedoras, Spencer?
• 30:05
  Why would anybody be carrying fedoras in 1980?
• 30:10
  Who was wearing fedoras in 1980? Like nobody was wearing fedoras.
• 30:17
  So I went in and they had a hat that was called the Australian
• 30:23
  model. And of course, so it had a the
• 30:26
  kind of a right brand. And then one side was Crocodile
• 30:33
  Dundee, right? And I said, I think I could work
• 30:36
  with this because I can cut the brim to whatever length.
• 30:40
  And I brought it back, tried it on Harrison, fit it, and it
• 30:44
  became the hat. And and I wish I had a nickel
• 30:47
  for every hat that was made. Right.
• 30:51
  The I mean, that really is the curse of what you all do too.
• 30:56
  But you know, years later, we're still talking about it.
• 30:58
  It is iconic, that silhouette. Professor Landis, I have to let
• 31:03
  you go. So you could go on to your next
• 31:04
  deployment because you're working on something else.
• 31:06
  Very exciting. But I just have to say thank you
• 31:08
  so much for your time. There's no way we could have
• 31:10
  talked about Raiders of the Lost Ark without talking to you.
• 31:14
  I hope everyone checks out your website.
• 31:17
  Thank you so much Professor Deborah Nedelman Landis for
• 31:19
  talking with us. This has been such a joy and I
• 31:21
  can't wait to hopefully I'm going to send you more
• 31:23
  questions. We could just chat after the
• 31:24
  fact. Spencer, you can always call me
• 31:27
  again. And if you ever want to talk
• 31:29
  about any of my other movies from the 80s, please, I can say
• 31:34
  it was big in the 80s, right? I've been dying to talk about
• 31:38
  coming to America. It's actually on our list, so
• 31:40
  come. On Let's Do It.
• 31:41
  Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us.
• 31:45
  Bye, Spencer. Spencer That was so much fun it.
• 31:54
  It was so much fun. I I'm sad that we were running a
• 31:58
  long time because I feel like I still had a gazillion more
• 32:00
  questions. But I think we got all the hits
• 32:02
  and we got to talk about Indiana Jones.
• 32:04
  You did and Steven Spielberg, and that's what we all care
• 32:06
  about. And I, I loved hearing about her
• 32:10
  collaboration with Steven Spielberg because some I wonder
• 32:13
  sometimes, like, OK, like, how do directors, you know, choose
• 32:18
  who they work with? And to think that he didn't have
• 32:23
  a costume designer before 1941. Like it, it's just, it's so
• 32:31
  crazy to me. But it's like that was still
• 32:34
  pretty early in filmmaking. Yeah, and it's something, you
• 32:39
  know, 'cause I've, it's no secret, I've pitched to
• 32:42
  Elizabeth doing a Jaws episode for several years on this
• 32:45
  podcast. But that was another Spielberg
• 32:47
  film where there was no costume designer.
• 32:51
  So it's, it's kind of like, well, how do we do that one, you
• 32:54
  know? So, yeah, it was kind of
• 32:57
  interesting to hear her talk about that because I kind of
• 32:59
  like filled in the blanks for me actually.
• 33:02
  So that was very exciting. I also had forgot that Harrison
• 33:05
  Ford was not supposed to be the original Indiana Jones.
• 33:09
  Tom Selleck that. Was new information to me.
• 33:14
  I had no idea. And quite frankly, I don't, I
• 33:19
  don't, I don't think it's this would be the movie it is without
• 33:23
  Harrison Ford. I think it really worked out the
• 33:26
  way it's supposed to. Yeah.
• 33:27
  I mean, I I guess we've just always known Harrison Ford as
• 33:30
  Indiana Jones. But, yeah, what about a totally
• 33:32
  different movie? I do like Tom Selleck, though,
• 33:35
  so I'm sure he could have killed it.
• 33:36
  But I mean, Harrison Ford, he's so dreamy at this point in time,
• 33:42
  you know, like, like she even said the Han Solo walked in for
• 33:45
  a fitting. So of course, everyone was like,
• 33:47
  well, that's the guy. And then right after, right
• 33:50
  after he's Deckard and Blade Runner.
• 33:52
  So the Han Solo Renaissance, as I said, Harrison Ford
• 33:57
  Renaissance. I feel like he's in another
• 34:00
  renaissance right now everywhere.
• 34:02
  I look. He's in something, yeah.
• 34:04
  He's unstoppable and we just love Harrison Ford for it.
• 34:09
  So since I didn't get to ask all of my questions, I figured maybe
• 34:13
  you and I could talk about a couple of costumes real quick.
• 34:16
  And one of my favorites I didn't get to ask Professor Landis
• 34:20
  about was actually when Indiana Jones is in his professor state
• 34:25
  at the college. To me, I was going to ask her
• 34:28
  like if if it was intentional. I was getting a lot of like
• 34:32
  Clark Kent vibes from Professor Indy because like we go from
• 34:38
  this like very dusty, kind of, you know, temple and is very
• 34:41
  obviously iconic silhouette. And we see him in his college
• 34:44
  and he's all dressed up with the, you know, with the ties and
• 34:48
  the glasses. And to me, I was like, this is
• 34:50
  Superman. This is Clark Ken trying to
• 34:52
  blend into regular society. I thought it was so funny.
• 34:55
  I will. I, I, I, I totally get what
• 34:59
  you're saying. I see it.
• 35:02
  I do think because this is like the late 30s, because it seems
• 35:06
  like World War 2 has not quite broken out yet and so he would
• 35:12
  have absolutely been required to wear three piece suit to work.
• 35:17
  I think it's so silly when I see him in like in the bow tie.
• 35:20
  I love it. I love him in the bow tie, but.
• 35:24
  It's good. That's definitely like the one
• 35:28
  that's where I see the the Clark Kent of it all with it, with his
• 35:32
  little his little professor bow tie.
• 35:34
  And it reminded me of the new Superman film, which you and I
• 35:38
  went and saw recently that Julianna Makovsky did.
• 35:42
  And there's a moment where, like, The Newsroom guys are
• 35:46
  around, car can't, like all the women are, like, fawning over
• 35:48
  him as well, too. And that same moment was
• 35:51
  happening for Indy as a professor.
• 35:53
  So I was like, just seeing a lot of parallels.
• 35:56
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:57
  Absolutely. I will say though, especially
• 36:01
  when he's talking to like all all the people about the Ark of
• 36:05
  the Covenant, I love that suit and that tie in particular
• 36:11
  because it takes them to like that serious academic.
• 36:15
  Whereas in the classroom, I feel like he's trying to be a little
• 36:18
  more approachable A. Little more approachable.
• 36:21
  That's why all the all the college girls are just
• 36:24
  absolutely dying over him because he does have like a
• 36:26
  warmth about him, which is interesting by the way, because
• 36:30
  as as Professor Landis mentioned, he's a little bit of
• 36:34
  a grumpy guy. Harrison Ford.
• 36:36
  So I thought and it's, you know, that's like known knowledge.
• 36:40
  Oh yeah, I think if you watch any interview with him, you
• 36:43
  know. Yeah, so seeing like that, light
• 36:46
  him with the red bow tie and like you said, he looks
• 36:49
  approachable. It is very interesting.
• 36:52
  And I think it's it's just such a testament to him as an actor
• 36:57
  because Indiana Jones is a person who loves what he does.
• 37:04
  He loves history. He loves, you know, chasing
• 37:09
  history. And I think those sort of
• 37:12
  people, when they have the opportunity to teach others it,
• 37:17
  even if like on a regular day, they would seem like someone
• 37:21
  who's not approachable, they lighten up.
• 37:23
  They like they're excited to tell you what they know.
• 37:27
  So I feel like that's him being Indiana Jones and he like, Oh my
• 37:32
  gosh, I'm so excited to tell these young people about my
• 37:37
  work. Yeah, hey, I get it.
• 37:39
  I mean, that's me whenever I talk about costume design, and
• 37:42
  I'm sure Professor Landis will feel the same way, like he'd
• 37:45
  start talking to me about what you're passionate about and I'll
• 37:48
  light up too like that. I also was going to mention as
• 37:53
  well to her that I just love how this film has such like a
• 37:58
  timeless quality to it. Like you said, it is a 19.
• 38:01
  It's based in the 1930s right in that coming up of World War 2.
• 38:05
  But I don't know, I just feel like there's such a timeless
• 38:08
  quality. Do you do you feel that way as
• 38:10
  well? Too?
• 38:11
  Yes. Like it doesn't feel dated
• 38:13
  watching it at this point either.
• 38:16
  No. And I I think that is, you know,
• 38:24
  a testament to her work because a couple weeks ago, before we
• 38:28
  decided we were going to do this for the podcast, I watched this.
• 38:33
  I remember I texted you and I was like, I want Marian's
• 38:37
  wardrobe because especially that first scene, I was like, I would
• 38:45
  wear that out and about, like. Actually, yeah, I see that.
• 38:49
  And I actually see the red pants and the white blouse on you as
• 38:53
  well too. Like please give me those
• 38:54
  trousers. Like please give me a good high
• 38:58
  waisted trouser please. I would love that.
• 39:03
  Yeah, Marion was absolutely so sweet.
• 39:05
  I loved all of her costumes, even like the kind of creepy one
• 39:09
  that the, you know, villains gave her.
• 39:12
  Yes. The all white one.
• 39:13
  Yeah, it was a cute dress though, you know, it was.
• 39:16
  I was like, alright, a little bit of taste there.
• 39:19
  I get it. She just, she looks so good all
• 39:23
  throughout it. And I feel like she's not, she's
• 39:27
  not playing into the stereotypes of the time.
• 39:31
  As she was saying, you know, it's about character.
• 39:34
  And I think it's timeless because she gave so much
• 39:36
  attention to the individual characters and betraying who
• 39:40
  they are. And I, I think that's why,
• 39:44
  although it's a period piece, the film itself feels timeless.
• 39:49
  Yeah. And actually, to that point, I
• 39:51
  actually wanted to read you an e-mail that Professor Landis
• 39:55
  sent me after the podcast. OK.
• 39:58
  And I thought, I just really love what she said to me.
• 40:03
  She was kind of like bringing back up that that question I
• 40:06
  asked her at the beginning, you know, what makes costume design
• 40:09
  and designers integral to film success?
• 40:12
  And she sent me another message after, and she said once costume
• 40:15
  design is separated from clothing and style, its value
• 40:19
  rises. When a goal is in creation of
• 40:21
  personality, authentic people who have had complicated lives
• 40:25
  before we meet them on screen, that's virtualistic filmmaking.
• 40:29
  That's when we care. Then there are characters who
• 40:32
  are interchangeable, disposable and one-dimensional.
• 40:35
  Dress dolls, pretty but vacant and flat, like the mannequins
• 40:39
  who walked a runway. Placeholders for people.
• 40:42
  It was such a pleasure. Let's do it again.
• 40:44
  Which I just, I loved because I just like you said, she just
• 40:48
  sees it's not about clothes, you know, it's about storytelling
• 40:52
  and figuring out who these people are.
• 40:54
  And I just think Marion is such a good example of that.
• 40:57
  When you see her in that first shot, you know, drinking all
• 41:00
  these men under the table and you see like the sweat on her
• 41:03
  and she's kind of unkempt, unkept.
• 41:05
  And everything's kind of like a little disheveled.
• 41:08
  And you just see that this is like a hard, tough person who's
• 41:11
  gone through a lot in their lives but has done been doing
• 41:14
  whatever she can, you know, to stay ahead of the world where
• 41:17
  she's at or just barely above the level of like survival.
• 41:22
  And I just think that marrying such a good testament to that
• 41:25
  so. Absolutely still.
• 41:27
  Teaching. And she's not even on a podcast
• 41:29
  with us. I know, I know.
• 41:32
  With that, I think we should play our favorite games.
• 41:35
  Are you ready? Oh yes.
• 41:38
  All right, how, what are you thinking about giving this film
• 41:41
  a stitch rating 1:00 to 5:00. I could go first.
• 41:44
  You. Go first.
• 41:46
  I was thinking like a solid 4 me.
• 41:49
  Too. Because of this me.
• 41:51
  Too like. To me it is like a perfect
• 41:54
  movie. I don't know.
• 41:55
  But then maybe like the end feels like a little bit long,
• 41:59
  but I don't know, like there's but like you said, I don't know
• 42:02
  that there's anything I would change about it.
• 42:04
  So maybe like a 4.5. Like it's so, so close.
• 42:09
  I don't know what's what, what it is, but it's it's such a
• 42:12
  great movie. I'll the the lines are even.
• 42:15
  Like the script is good. I feel like doing I'm convincing
• 42:19
  myself it's a 5 at this point because like I'm thinking about
• 42:22
  like the art direction in a way. Like the light hits Indy when
• 42:25
  he's like in the temple at the beginning, the silhouettes.
• 42:29
  When they're uncovering like the, the spot where he has to
• 42:34
  put the staff in and he, he takes off the stuff and he puts
• 42:38
  the hat on and he's silhouetted. Oh.
• 42:40
  Gosh, yeah, it's so good. You know what?
• 42:43
  I'm unchanging it. It's a 5 for me.
• 42:46
  I think it's a 5 for me too and it's just such a classic.
• 42:49
  Yeah, such a classic. Like, like you said, this is
• 42:53
  like the ultimate popcorn film. Like you can't really.
• 42:57
  There's nothing better than saying now and watching Indiana
• 42:59
  Jones. So.
• 43:01
  So. All right, Well, that was easier
• 43:02
  than I thought it would be, but maybe not so easy.
• 43:06
  Elizabeth Ferry to play, one costume to rule them all.
• 43:09
  I. AM the one costume to rule them
• 43:15
  all. All right, so I have a feeling
• 43:22
  we're probably aligned on this, but I don't know.
• 43:25
  My one costume rule them all just has to be the iconic
• 43:28
  Indiana Jones costume we see at the beginning.
• 43:31
  I mean, to me, it's just one of the most iconic costumes of all
• 43:35
  time. And you know, we usually say
• 43:38
  that about a lot of like women's costumes.
• 43:40
  I feel like we we haven't said that about a lot of men's
• 43:43
  costumes. So I would like to enter this
• 43:46
  into the art of costume podcast, Museum of iconic.
• 43:50
  One costume to rule them all costumes is Indiana Jones's
• 43:55
  temple. Like at the beginning.
• 43:58
  I I like it, yeah. Feeling.
• 44:01
  I feel like you have something else in mind though.
• 44:04
  Oh yeah, I'm not. It's not my one costume to rule
• 44:06
  them all. But it might.
• 44:10
  Now that you say that I'm like it.
• 44:11
  It might just be the most iconic men's costume of all time.
• 44:18
  Like, like sitting back and like trying to think about what else
• 44:24
  has made that big of an, an impact.
• 44:27
  I don't know, like maybe Edward's Gray coat, but.
• 44:33
  Yeah, that's wild. But yeah.
• 44:37
  I. Know.
• 44:37
  Like, can I? I say that in all honesty, like
• 44:41
  and and that is wild because much love to Twilight.
• 44:47
  I was thinking like like maybe the godfathers suit maybe?
• 44:53
  Maybe. She went straight to Twilight.
• 44:57
  That's fair, though I respect your opinion.
• 45:00
  But I digress. MY1 costume to rule them all is
• 45:05
  Marion's white dress that she's forced to put on by the creeps.
• 45:10
  The. Creepy Nazis.
• 45:12
  And I love it because she's forced into this and she's like
• 45:17
  OK, whatever, but uses it to her advantage.
• 45:20
  And as we go through the rest of the film, I love how they just
• 45:26
  dressed it and destroyed it and it just like, it slowly like
• 45:31
  falls away. Yeah.
• 45:34
  And just because like just it looks terrible, by the end of
• 45:38
  it, it becomes. A rag toward the end of its
• 45:42
  journey. Yeah, but I, I think I, I love
• 45:46
  that they took this like gorgeous dress and just
• 45:50
  absolutely destroyed it. Yeah, it it was really fun.
• 45:55
  Yeah. That's a good one, Elizabeth I I
• 45:57
  appreciate that. And which is why I told her, by
• 46:00
  the way, I was like the aging and dying in this film is
• 46:03
  incredible. And the fact that she aged that,
• 46:06
  you know, indie jacket, it sounds.
• 46:08
  Like she aged it by the pool with just like Harrison Ford.
• 46:13
  Yeah, just the day before. Just like chilling.
• 46:17
  Which is wild, so wild, so wild. And that brings us to the end of
• 46:23
  Raiders of the Lost Ark and the end of our 80s adventure series,
• 46:27
  which is only two episodes long, Labyrinth and Raids of the Lost
• 46:30
  Ark. But I have to say, it was a lot
• 46:32
  of fun. So I think we should revisit
• 46:34
  this, maybe in another season. I like these 80s adventure
• 46:37
  classics. So.
• 46:40
  But the 80s fun doesn't exactly end right there, though, because
• 46:45
  it's time for us to reveal. Costume nerds this spooky
• 46:52
  season. Our theme, starting with our
• 47:00
  next episode, The Lost Boys. Yes.
• 47:04
  I am so excited. I love this stinking movie so
• 47:07
  much. It is campy and stupid and over
• 47:11
  the top and I love it. And it's vampires.
• 47:14
  We should actually say that our our vampire month.
• 47:18
  It's not just vampires, it's almost like hot vampire month.
• 47:23
  Honestly, yeah. Should we reveal our lineup,
• 47:26
  Spencer? Yeah, I totally think we should
• 47:28
  be revealing our line up. Let's just do it.
• 47:32
  Well, as we do every season, we always for spooky season, we do
• 47:36
  an episode every week, so be prepared to hear from us every
• 47:40
  week in October, which I'm very excited about.
• 47:43
  So we will be doing The Lost Boys followed by Interview with
• 47:46
  the Vampire, the TV series which I'm very excited to finally get
• 47:50
  into. Like I said, hot vampires only.
• 47:52
  We're not doing Twilight though, so don't ask.
• 47:54
  We've already done like what, 4 or 5 Twilight episodes at this
• 47:58
  point? Actually only.
• 47:59
  Done one but. Followed by Interview the
• 48:05
  Vampire we'll be talking about Only Lovers Left Alive, a movie
• 48:09
  I haven't seen yet but has a lot of our favorites from Crimson
• 48:13
  Peak in it so I'm very excited about that.
• 48:16
  Following that film then we are going to be talking about ATV
• 48:19
  series that had the world in a chokehold for sounds like a very
• 48:23
  long time. I have not seen but Elizabeth
• 48:26
  has. It is called True Blood.
• 48:30
  Yes. I am very excited for that.
• 48:35
  I need to get started on watching that show.
• 48:37
  Sounds like there's a couple episodes so.
• 48:42
  A couple, quite a few, quite a few.
• 48:47
  Thank you all for listening. Don't forget to e-mail us at the
• 48:49
  r.ofcostume@gmail.com. Let us know what you're excited
• 48:52
  about in our spooky season. Send us your questions for any
• 48:55
  of the episodes we just talked about.
• 48:57
  We'd be happy to dive into them. As always, follow us on
• 49:01
  Instagram at the Art of Costume Pod or TikTok at The Art of
• 49:04
  Costume. Our pod store is still open,
• 49:07
  theartofcostume.com/pod store. And as always, leave us a five
• 49:11
  star texted view on Apple Podcasts or rate US on Spotify.
• 49:15
  And last thing, if you are not yet subscribed to us on YouTube,
• 49:20
  please do so. You get to watch all of our fun
• 49:23
  interviews over YouTube and see our beautiful shining faces,
• 49:27
  which is so much fun. So with that, costume nerds,
• 49:33
  we'll see you all in our spooky season.
• 49:36
  See you soon.