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Building Capacity, Culture, and Future Leaders with Ian Chisholm · It's Time for Success: The Business Insights Podcast

• Sharon DeKoning: [00:00:05] Welcome to It's Time for Success, the Business Insights podcast. I'm your host, Sharon DeKoning. I am a massive fan of the dreamers and the local legends. In our towns, small businesses represent 99.9% of our communities. We aren't just part of the economy. We are the economy. Most of us didn't start our business because we wanted to be the leader. We started because we had a passion, a product, or a dream to get a business off the ground. But today we're talking about what happens next, the leadership it takes to grow the company. And there is nobody better to help us through that learning curve than my guest today, Ian Chisolm. Ian co-founded the Roy Group in 2004 with a vision of helping people discover their life's work and lead with purpose. Ian is a respected coaching practitioner and social entrepreneur, originally from Saskatchewan. In fact, we just found out he's about 30km where I'm currently recording this podcast today, and it's going to be a fun day, I think. Okay. Can you tell us a bit about yourself and share some key topics our listeners are going to learn about today? Ian Chisholm: [00:01:04] Sure. I guess the story starts is that I was a student at the U of A and desperate to become a medical doctor so I could go back to Maidstone and be a doctor. And I didn't get in. Like, they looked at my marks and said, I don't think we should let you be a doctor. You can enjoy ER and the Pit, but you shouldn't be a doctor. So that kind of sent me into the wilderness. And of course it was the best thing that never happened to me because it put me on the path of executive education. It put me on the path of working with the leadership potential initially of young people from tough socio economic realities. And yeah, put me on my path to work with leaders and really to help organizations develop their next generation of leaders, which is the ultimate test of any leader, that they create more leaders around them. And we do that in a very unique way by really focusing on the North Star of mentorship. If we can get the existing senior team of an organization to really earn that word mentor together, we know that we can make a pretty special story happen in terms of succession and developing their next generation of leaders. Sharon DeKoning: [00:02:11] I'm 57. Succession sounds sweet to me. Okay, so I think it's a long ways to go, so I definitely need your help. You talked, you said the word earn the name mentor. Can we talk about that a little bit? Ian Chisholm: [00:02:23] Sure. Yeah. In our discussion before we started, Sharon, we were talking about all these words like manager, supervisor, leader. And I think what that represents, even though we tangle all those words together, is that they each mean something a little bit different. And we might be more than one of them at the same time. But, if this path of leadership is one that we really believe is required from us, that will take us down the road, and it'll take us down the road of practice. And if we practice really well and use every week as a chance to practice and to refine ourselves as a leader, we're going to find ourselves in the territory of mentorship and our number one conviction at Roy Group is that the word mentor is something called a gift word. And there's lots of gift words, but they're words that you can't call yourself. Doesn't matter what the relationship is. I stay clear of ever referring to myself as somebody's mentor, because that's somebody else's choice to use that word to describe the role that I've played or am playing in the story of their life. It means more if we keep it a gift word. And what we have found is that all of the right people, when they hear that, suddenly have an appetite to earn it, they want to earn it. They're like, that is a North star that I would like to move towards. And if I did that, my practice of leadership would become better and better and better. Sharon DeKoning: [00:03:49] So what is a mentor? Tell us a little bit about the breakdown of what is a mentor? Ian Chisholm: [00:03:54] Sure. Yeah. Lots of work. Mentoring is a word. It's not one that we use very much because to us, the word mentor, like I said, is something that you earn in the story of somebody else. It's something that you are to people, not something that you do to them. So for us, when we break down this gift word of mentor, and we did this with a fairly sizable piece of research over the last three years, collecting hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of stories of people telling us a story about somebody who's earned the word mentor, and then diving into those stories to see what are the themes that keep showing up. So what we have is a pretty clear idea of when somebody earns that word mentor. There's four clusters of stories, which I think answer your question. Number one, there are stories that somebody was an example that all I had to do is watch that person in a tough situation, and I could automatically start to see myself conducting myself the same way as they do. I think that's hugely overlooked, and something that a leader needs to be highly aware of is that people are watching the way you tackle your weeks, and they're emulating you in a good way, or in a way that's not so hopeful. Ian Chisholm: [00:05:07] There's another cluster of stories that were loud and clear about advice and very important here. It wasn't about the quantity of advice, it was about stories. All of the stories were about they listened and listened and listened and paid attention. And when I needed one piece of advice, maybe to steer me towards an opportunity or to steer me away from a brick wall that I was headed towards. They didn't hesitate. They stepped into the breach and gave me that piece of advice. And because they're not a know it all, and they're not constantly giving me advice, when they do choose to give me a piece of advice, I really heed it. That was another big theme that came up in the research. Another one was instruction that mentors are people who, if there's a process or an approach or a model or a concept, it's almost like they put their instructor hat on and walk us through something in a way that we're going to remember the rest of our life. Chances are we're going to pass that same piece of information onto somebody else in the same way that it was taught to us. Ian Chisholm: [00:06:12] So when it's time to instruct mentors, don't shy away from that. And then there's a huge cluster of stories that the new word on the street, the last 30 years has been this idea of coaching our people. Having to be able to shift into that gear where we're having the conversation that not only helps people see what it is that they're trying to create, but makes them hungry in their gut to go make it happen. The best mentors have a real system for coaching their people. They help them have a really great conversation before they go tackle something. And a really great conversation after that provides that person with some feedback. And it's a never ending loop when, when a mentor shifts into that, that coaching mode. Anyway, the secret seems to be in a book that we created for a mentor to be very discerning. And by that I mean just to have a sense of what it's time for in any given interaction with my people. And when I realize what's required of me, I can shift into that gear just like I was driving a standard. Sharon DeKoning: [00:07:19] Do you think business owners, entrepreneurs, is this a natural thing as an entrepreneur, or is this something that we have to develop and work towards? Ian Chisholm: [00:07:28] It was a conversation with you that made me first think about this, that as entrepreneurs, we are initiative takers. We are gap fillers. We recognize the pattern and we cross the street regardless of what the sign says, right? That we are hustlers and we're making it happen. And so I think when we suddenly realize that our enterprise is not going to go forward unless we start leading, I think that can be a tough conversion because leading. And then in its truest sense, mentorship, which I really believe that mentorship is like an extension of one's leadership journey. It's almost like a purified leader occupies the ground of a mentor. But so much about leadership is not hustling. It's setting it up for other people to go hustle and have complete ownership of their piece of the puzzle. I think the biggest difference, Sharon, would be like the ratio of attention to intention. Entrepreneurs are intention rich people. They are using every 15 minute block to kick some ass. They're hard workers. A big part of leadership is turning the volume down on intention and paying attention. Where is this person at? What am I noticing about my clients, about the market, about new trends and patterns. Leadership is, I think, a complementary practice, but a different practice to entrepreneurship. Sharon DeKoning: [00:08:57] I think so, and I think as some businesses, they stop and they don't realize that this is all part of being in business. Is the mentoring or the intention to attention. I want to jump onto that later, but I think that you need to morph into these in order to grow and scale your business. I believe that this is something that has to be intentional or focused on, or I don't even know if it's intentional. I think we just have it in us. Is that possible? Ian Chisholm: [00:09:20] That's part of it, Sharon, is that it can become like something that's really fun and social, because what it means is like getting on the path with other people that are in the same place. The best way to become a better leader is to hang out with people that are on that same journey, and who are practicing and trying to use their experience every week to make them a little bit better the next time. So it doesn't have to be something you do in addition to your work. It can actually become work, becoming a better leader. Sharon DeKoning: [00:09:52] Even like this podcast, it's really 100% selfish a little bit because I get to learn something at every podcast that I do. And I get to learn stuff. But I mean, it's meant to help other people as well. Of course, I get to learn everything, but it is meant to help people out there in entrepreneurship. And I'm hoping that what you have to say today, these people can take and absorb and grow with it. So it's a system to go through these avenues of reaching more people to help people. Okay. So intention to pay attention. I feel like you said, we are, as you talked about the business owner, like I always jump. And then I think that makes sense. You just mentioned crossing the road don't. Yeah. I jump and then think later. It worked sometimes but not all the time. Intention to attention. And I find right now as a business owner, like for me, because we are scaling, we got the three locations and you know, it's great. It's awesome. But now I need to be more attentive, if that makes sense, because I have so many moving parts and our staff is growing and I have to be attentive to everything. And I find I'm doing less and less, which is the whole goal of the game, less in business. And I'm doing more of that kind of stuff. So can you talk about the intention and attention a little bit? Ian Chisholm: [00:11:04] I heard a great story. I have a mentor named Robert Henderson who was helping me get the hang of this, playing with the ratio of attention versus intention in your days. And he told me a great story about how the senior monk at a monastery gave the assignment to one monk to go plant this tree in exactly the right spot in the garden. And so the first monk was a hustler. So he went and dug a hole, put the tree in the hole, stood back, wasn't quite right. So he went and dug another hole. He dug up the tree again, put it in that hole, covered it up, and stood back. It's not gonna quite get the sunshine it needs there. And he did this all day. He just did multiple tests to find out where the right place for this tree was. And the senior monk asked another person, same assignment. Put this tree in exactly the right spot that it needs to be. And that monk spent the whole day sitting on a rock, noticing the garden, paying attention to where the sun moved, paying attention to where there was taller grass because there was more water underneath. Like paying attention to where trees like this one grow the best, right? Just he paid attention, paid attention. And when the time was right, went and dug one hole and put that tree in exactly the right spot. The first monk to me is the hustle required to be an entrepreneur. And to get something started. You just got to make it happen. And it's so fun. Like there's a reason why we do it when we're young. It's so true. And then as we get a little bit older and that our enterprise needs us to become a leader, I think we gotta become more like that second person in the story, I've really deepened that discipline of paying attention. Sharon DeKoning: [00:12:44] And do you feel there's a shift throughout the journey, or is it just something like, like, even like, so we call it like in business and on business. That's how I refer to it. So I have. Ian Chisholm: [00:12:53] Yeah, that's a good one. Sharon DeKoning: [00:12:54] We have this calendar time where I'm on business. Don't bother me. I'm not in business right now. So that's kind of where we're morphing towards. And we're trying to get there more and more for me. But even not just me, my general manager, she's got her own stuff, so she's being blocked off time to do business stuff as well and not on business stuff. ANdame with our, we have a training person who's in charge of systems and training, so she's got to be blocked off time to do this in business instead of on business. But when does it turn out to be, when do you feel that it switches from being, 'get the work done because you got to pay those bills', to that, to that part of your life where you're starting to create, when you're looking outwards, when you're taking that time to be attentive, like, when can you do that? Is it when their bills are paid and caught up and money is flowing? Is it when you have enough? Like when? When's the perfect or do you always do this? Or do you just clock out? Instead of working eight hours a day, you do ten hours a day. But you know what I mean? Like, how do you transition? Ian Chisholm: [00:13:48] It's always tempting to put more hours in. Sharon DeKoning: [00:13:50] Which we do. Entrepreneurs do it all the time. Ian Chisholm: [00:13:53] Of course they do. Yeah. I think it really takes an initial step back to realize that what as cliche as it is, what got me here is not going to get me there. And there's a little equation that we use a lot called r equals QC. R is like the result. And QC stands for the quality to which tasks are getting done. And C stands for the capacity that I've developed. So there's a queue trap that a leader gets their results by just doing things right, because they're the person who's maybe started it or done it the most, or they've done it over and over. You know, you could run your team meeting on Friday mornings with a blindfold on and you'd run a great meeting because you've been doing it for years. But anything times zero is zero, which means your quality could be ten out of ten, but if you're not developing the capacity of another person, you're really just working hard. You're not leading. Mhm. It's that C in the equation of how am I designing my work to develop the capacity of other people? So you get someone on your team, maybe the training person that you just mentioned, they're going to run the staff meeting on Friday and they've never done it before. So they're going to be nervous. They're going to need to practice. They're going to need a little bit of extra time for you the first time. And they're only going to do a seven out of ten, let's be honest. It's not going to be as good as your staff meeting, but you got them on the board in that C factor. Maybe it developed three out of ten. Well, three times seven is way more than zero. And so we start playing with that ratio of how much of what I'm doing is just getting the task done well, the way I want it done. And how much of this is slowly but surely developing the capacity of other people, because when that person runs the meeting as good or better than you do, you've just freed yourself up to pay more attention to other parts of the business. Yeah. As leaders, we're constantly setting up really rich delegations so that the potential of other people can kind of have something to play with. Sharon DeKoning: [00:15:57] Yeah. And I find like, you got to have the right people, the right people on the bus, so to speak, right on the right seats. And that takes time to get those also. And hiring right now, it's hard. It's a different world out there than it used to be. I was so sad before. I was just happy to have a job at the pizza place. And I was happy with that. And I'm folding boxes and I'm damn good at folding boxes. But now it's like, this is a whole different mindset that's going on, and I'm not sure why that is. Ian Chisholm: [00:16:21] But that's, that's funny. That's an interesting point because it might be different. Maybe it is different. Maybe giving kids a participation trophy for 12 years didn't bring it out. Maybe. Maybe there's some patterns there. But I also think we got to look right here. If my team is not engaged, if they are not hungry for new challenging assignments, how have I shaped that as a leader and how might I shape that so that these young people take up the torch and lead an incredible next chapter? Like, I think we gotta own it. Sharon DeKoning: [00:16:56] You gotta own it. But also like when they, when people work, like, especially for me, I want them to be fulfilled in a day. Life is short. Life is short. You're here for eight hours a day, five days a week. You better come in with a smile and you better leave with a smile. And if this isn't the place for you. I will help you find a different place where you're smiling. Because it's very important. It's very important. And if they're feeling fulfilled and they're feeling they're done good in a day, they've done a good job to themselves and they can leave the door. That's huge. Right? Ian Chisholm: [00:17:25] We did a fun project with a CEO, Sharon, where the CEO just really said that your expectation is that people show up with a smile and leave with a smile and kind of light her up in between. That's really important for people to know that that's your expectation, whether that's in onboarding or like they need to know explicitly. Here's the ten things that I look for over the course of each day at this work. They need to know that. Yeah, they need to know that that's what you're looking for. A CEO that we work with created his own owner's manual. And it was like his psychometric information. It was like those ten things that he expects from people, the ten things that drive him bananas. He just put it all into a manual, and every single member of the team gets a copy of, I'm your CEO. You should have the owner's manual for me. Sharon DeKoning: [00:18:20] That's really clever. And just listening to you, I just thought of something else. So like, I have all these ideas for my visions as an owner of Its Time Promotions is people wise. I focus on my people and I'm very, very focused on my people. They come first, customers second. Like all that kind of stuff. But my team, my general manager, she is better at running the business than I am. Right? She's better at the details. She's better at the systems. She corrects me if I step out of my bounds when I do something because I'm so used to doing something right. You know, but I'm more focused on having a healthy, happy business. Does that make sense? Ian Chisholm: [00:18:56] Yeah. Sounds like an awesome combination because both things are important. Sharon DeKoning: [00:19:00] Isn't that cool? Okay. Ian Chisholm: [00:19:01] Like, I think it sounds like you're in a really conceptual phase of your career. How do we make this business great? Sounds like you've got a general manager of. Yeah. And how do we make it get there in your vision? How do we do things right so that we can pave our way to get to that new place, whatever that new place is. Sharon DeKoning: [00:19:21] Whatever that place is. That's interesting. Ian Chisholm: [00:19:24] And I think what's important is that you make your partnership explicit. Take your general manager for lunch and say, let's talk about the combination that is us. I really admire you for this, this, this, this and this. And this is what I think I bring to the table that complements that. Let's make that intentional, not just accidental. Sharon DeKoning: [00:19:44] That's so cool. I'm gonna do that. Send me the she's in one location. I'm in another location. So we don't, I mean, I, we talk 84 times a day, don't get me wrong, but it's not like that intentional conversation, if that makes sense. And she's been with me for 100 years. So it's like we, we think that we know what each other's thinking, but sometimes you don't you need to have those conversations. Ian Chisholm: [00:20:03] 100 years is a long time. Sharon DeKoning: [00:20:04] Yeah, yeah. She was just a little girl right out of school. Okay. Um, let's talk about building capacity. How do you shift from just managing a to-do list to actually building a team that can grow with us? So we kind of talked about that already, I feel. So how do you go from to do lists? What's in your tickle trunk there? What do you have for ideas shifting over to building that team? Ian Chisholm: [00:20:23] Yeah, the biggest one is that really clear, structured, disciplined delegation. Even though I'm tempted to do these first three things on my to-do list, these things represent a chance for somebody else to start getting better and better and better at the reason that I hired them. And you use the to do lists to help people become more of who they've always been. That requires that you know your people's strengths. You know what their gifts are. That requires that you pay attention to people. We have a great little Italian restaurant. If you're ever out in Victoria, Sharon, I'll take you to it. Called 900 degrees. It's in Sydney, which is a little town by the ferry. And there's a gentleman. I don't know if he's the owner. I think he might be like a partial owner. He's certainly the general manager of this location. And this guy is exceptional when he takes care of your table. I mean, really, you feel like you're in New York City, but 90% of the time he's behind the bar polishing glasses and just watching his servers and watching the chefs. And he's just watching, watching, watching and having these little side conversations with people to help them become better and better and better. So three years later, that standard of service is high, regardless of who your server is. Now, this is a restaurant, right? This is a place that is actually excellent. It's not cheap and it's worth every penny. That's yeah, we got to polish glasses and just notice. I wonder, I wonder how I could help this person really unleash their gifts. What kind of assignments would I like to give that person to help them really refine who they are in this company? Yeah. You got to polish glasses, Sharon. Sharon DeKoning: [00:22:10] That's brilliant. So as entrepreneurs, we have our heads down. We're in the weeds. I always call it like we're digging. Ian Chisholm: [00:22:15] Solving problems. Sharon DeKoning: [00:22:16] Like unbelievable. We don't even get up for air sometimes. Like when it's winter time, it's like, oh, you come in the dark and you leave in the dark, you know? And it's like, what? What just happened? And don't see you don't see. Ian Chisholm: [00:22:26] Right? Sharon DeKoning: [00:22:27] Does that make sense? Like you can't see everything. Ian Chisholm: [00:22:30] Like we said earlier, if we're not conscious of that, what we're actually doing is being an example of that. And so then a young person who joins our company is at a fork in the road to say, do I want to be busy and flustered and frustrated like that person is 14 hours a day, or do I want to have a good life? We have to make leadership look like something that people want to aspire to, not something that they want to avoid. And I think we've gotten that wrong in the last 20 years. I think with technology, it means we're capable of solving everything, right? We'll just solve it, solve it, solve it. We're not actually stepping back and seeing the entire system of what we're creating and what we're creating, potentially, if we're not careful, is a generation who wants to give leadership a big pass. Why would I want to own my own business? Why would I want to take on that really tough position? I think I'll just do my work and have a great weekend. Sharon DeKoning: [00:23:27] It's because you lead by example, right? Yeah. No it's true. And it's sometimes you have to because you got like payrolls coming out. Let's quickly get you know, you got all this stuff going on as entrepreneurs, you got so much going on and you have to be mindful of setting. And I do realize like even myself, if I come in and I'm heavy or something, like I don't bring anything to work. I'm very good at keeping it behind, but I might be quieter in a day, so to speak. But you can just see how it all ricochets around everything. Like you are setting an example and you got to be very mindful of that. You got to be very mindful. So I always think of those little memes when papers fly in and phones are ringing and my desk is chaos, like that's what they see. So I got to be a little bit better at that. Ian Chisholm: [00:24:10] Yeah. Not only do they not want that job, you'll find that they don't want to interrupt you, because you're obviously at your wit's end when we act like that. Sharon DeKoning: [00:24:19] Yeah. And when I say me, I think that there's probably 90% of us that do that as entrepreneurs. Us in general. We forget. We forget. Okay. Well, thank you for that. I believe you have a leadership toolbox. And in there you explained or you talked about loft and third chair. Is that correct? Ian Chisholm: [00:24:37] Yeah, sure. Sharon DeKoning: [00:24:38] Can we dive into that a little bit? Because that really had me intrigued. Ian Chisholm: [00:24:41] Sure. There's probably a bigger idea that unites both of those things that are in the book. This is it. I'm going to say this, Sharon, and it's going to haunt you for the rest of your life. Are you ready? Sharon DeKoning: [00:24:53] Yeah. Ian Chisholm: [00:24:53] I'm ready. The way you choose to conduct yourself creates an atmosphere inside other people. It's what we were just talking about. So in becoming the sort of leader that earns the word mentor. I'm going to have to be really, really conscious about the way I conduct myself in any given situation and the atmosphere that's created inside another person’s loft. That little acronym is something we created in the book because it's a reminder before I have an interaction with one of my team members. There's no right answer, but I should be aware of four things. How lit am I from the inside? Like, is there a fire inside that people can kind of sense during an interaction with me? That's important. And if I give myself a seven out of ten, the question becomes, I wonder what's getting in the way of that being ten out of ten. Sometimes that might even bump me up to an eight or a nine. Secondly, how open am I? As I'm getting ready to step into this interaction? Number three, how focused am I getting ready to interact with this member of my team? And lastly, transparent, which takes a little bit of courage to be transparent, but how transparent am I prepared to be in this conversation? And normally what's nice is that it spells loft. And I do think that idea of a leader being able to ascend to a slightly higher level that pays more attention to what's in front of them like a loft does. I think it's a nice little reminder to us to raise our game before we start interacting with people. So loft is a tool that we use that mentors can use, that leaders can use with themselves to raise their game a little bit. Sharon DeKoning: [00:26:35] And this is all outlined in the book. I read that book before I came on because I need to know all this stuff. This is awesome. Ian Chisholm: [00:26:40] Well, make sure you get a copy. Sharon DeKoning: [00:26:42] I will. Okay. Ian Chisholm: [00:26:44] The third chair is a tool that then I can use with the person in front of me. So maybe this third chair. Let's do a little demo right here live on your screen. How many years have you been doing this podcast and you just found out? We were talking earlier. You just found out your podcast is now being listened to in 40 countries. Sharon DeKoning: [00:27:08] Yeah, actually 50 countries, 50 countries, 50 countries. Yeah. Ian Chisholm: [00:27:12] Congratulations. Sharon DeKoning: [00:27:13] Thank you. Ian Chisholm: [00:27:15] Who is somebody’s podcast that you really admire? Sharon DeKoning: [00:27:19] I listen to a lot of business ones. And why don't I remember think of the names of it now. Actually, you know, what I listen to a lot of is BNI ones the BNI. So I listen to a lot of BNI podcasts. Ian Chisholm: [00:27:29] And who is the personality on that one? Sharon DeKoning: [00:27:31] It's for Business Networking International. So it's all about networking and communications and all that kind of stuff. So that's it. Ian Chisholm: [00:27:38] Okay. And is there a person at the center of it? Sharon DeKoning: [00:27:41] Yes. And I should know his name off the top of my noggin, but I don't. He is Ivan Misner. There we go. Come to me like a light bulb. Ivan Misner. Ian Chisholm: [00:27:48] Okay. His name is Adam. Sharon DeKoning: [00:27:50] Ivan. Ian Chisholm: [00:27:51] Ivan. Sorry. Yeah. So we're going to pretend that Ivan was the third panel of our screen today. Okay, there's three of us. But I'm super excited that you get to have Ivan on your show. And Ivan gives you three pieces of advice on how you could raise your game with this podcast. And I'm interested in what those three things would be that he would say. Sharon DeKoning: [00:28:14] Do I pretend I'm Ivan or what? Ian Chisholm: [00:28:16] Yeah, well, you're just. He's in the room with us, and he's given us three pieces of advice. Sharon DeKoning: [00:28:20] Okay. Ian Chisholm: [00:28:21] What's the first one? Sharon DeKoning: [00:28:24] I guess information, how I can help people. Topics, maybe. Would that work? Ian Chisholm: [00:28:28] Yes. Sounds great. Okay, what's the second thing that he gives us a piece of advice on? Sharon DeKoning: [00:28:36] For me, I would like preparation, probably how to prepare properly for the podcast. Ian Chisholm: [00:28:41] And specifically, what would that mean? Sharon DeKoning: [00:28:43] Just so I like to be able to know the guests that I have on here. And what do I actually looking for? Like what, what are the key things I should be focused on so I can portray their uses the best to our listeners or the best of their expertise to our listeners. Ian Chisholm: [00:28:56] Get it? Information, preparation. What's his third suggestion? Sharon DeKoning: [00:29:01] His third suggestion would be, so I got information, preparation, I'm gonna say marketing. Ian Chisholm: [00:29:07] Tell me a little more about that. Sharon DeKoning: [00:29:09] How do I reach more people besides 50 countries? Okay, how do I get to, I don't know, say 10,000 downloads. Okay. How do I help other people? Ian Chisholm: [00:29:17] That's what we just did. The third chair tool. Ivan was in the third chair. He gave you some really valuable advice. I think all three of those things make a lot of sense. You could do those things. And you didn't get those from Ivan. You got those from you. Sharon DeKoning: [00:29:31] I get you. Clever, clever. Ian Chisholm: [00:29:35] It's pretty easy. You just invent a third chair and invite somebody else to the conversation. That helps the person in front of you tap into what they know, and they've just never had a chance to put it down in front of themselves. Sharon DeKoning: [00:29:47] Okay, that is really clever. Fun. All right. Anything else on this topic before we jump ahead? Ian Chisholm: [00:29:53] Nope. Keep jumping, keep jumping. Sharon DeKoning: [00:29:55] All right. Leaders can create an emotional atmosphere. If an office feels stressed, how can the owner change the weather? Because you've been there. I've walked into places, I've walked into places, and I know it's a crappy place. Have you ever had that? When you walk in, you know, you just know. You can feel the energy. Ian Chisholm: [00:30:11] You know they're having a bad day. Sharon DeKoning: [00:30:13] Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. So like, of course, that would be poison in my world because that would portray to my customers that would portray to the rest of my team, it would be absolute poison. And it is poison. It doesn't matter what company you're with. Right. So as an owner, what do you do in this situation? And yes, I agree with you that it portrays you. And I've actually gone, there's a book called, and it says you are a badass. And she actually changed my life. One day I was miserable and I was grouchy and I was ready to kill everybody that walked around me. But she says that in order to be, you have to focus on you. So I can only make myself happy. I can't focus on anybody else. I can only focus on me. And that's what I focused on. And whatever you fast forward and things got easier. But so as a business owner, yes, I can make myself happy or I am happy about my situation. But you can resonate with that. But how do you fix the hole, right? What are your thoughts on that? Ian Chisholm: [00:31:07] Yeah, we come back to the premise that I mentioned that the way that I choose to conduct myself creates an atmosphere inside other people. I use the word atmosphere there on purpose because an atmosphere just is. You can't shape it or change it. When you went out to your car this morning, you felt a little bit of frost in the air. I'm guessing it's April. Oh, there's humidity. There's temperature. And it just is. You can't change it. And inside human beings is the same way. It's just an atmosphere. They experience something in their day, maybe a conversation with you. And it just creates a neurochemical soup inside. Leadership for me, and certainly mentorship as an extension of that practice is about being highly aware of this dynamic. So knowing the nature of the challenge my team faces today, let's say we've got to do your business, it's a big inventory day. We do it once a year after Christmas and it's a drag. It's a terrible day. Okay, let's reverse engineer that equation that I just mentioned. In order for us to rise to the challenge that's in front of us today, what is the atmosphere that people need to have inside? What would you need? They probably need to feel appreciated. Ian Chisholm: [00:32:23] They probably need to feel that there's lots of time, that there's some space for some fun and something good to eat. I don't know. They need to feel respected by you. Okay. Whatever that list is, this is the way people would need to feel inside to tackle this thing that we've got to tackle today. Reverse engineer it. How therefore, do I need to conduct myself? I need to be relaxed. I need to be calm. I need to be really clear about what I want the store to look like at the end of the day. As a leader, this is what this is how I need to show up today, knowing that it will create the atmosphere inside other people and that will determine how they can take action, because our atmospheres do determine how we can take action, what we believe about ourselves that day affects our actions. Sharon DeKoning: [00:33:12] I'm going to be living in California or Arizona or something for three months. So that's my dream. So my leadership team has to know these skills as well. So as me as a leader currently, I have to portray that into them so they can portray it off too, right? Ian Chisholm: [00:33:28] Yeah. There needs to be a It's Time way in your world, like when you work here, there's a way that we tackle things together. There's a way that we lead, there's a way that we have our early morning meeting, and there's a way that we shut down at the end of the day, like you belong to this way, and we're going to keep each other right in this way because it makes for a great business. Sharon DeKoning: [00:33:54] I like that, actually, when you word it like that, because like I say, It's Time way because it's not just solely on the owner, right? So if you have that as a company wide and everybody knows it, it's a lot easier. I feel that it's not just up to you to come because I. When I was growing the business, there'd be just a couple of us. And sometimes I'm depleted because I'm actually introverted and so I talk all day and then I go home and I'm exhausted, like, yes, I can do it, but I'm tired. It takes a lot out of me. So when I was growing it, sometimes I felt like it was all me. I had to be up here because I knew that they would feed off of it. Like, I know that it's just common sense. I know what your kids, your husband, everything. Right? So anyway, sometimes I felt when I was building the business, at the end of the day, I was tired at it. But once you get them to that spot it's easier than it feeds itself. And it's like this whole circle effect. That's what I've seen anyways here. Ian Chisholm: [00:34:43] Yeah. That's true. It's way easier when leadership is shared and everyone's practicing and your example is always going to be important. Sharon DeKoning: [00:34:52] Absolutely. We call ourselves the flock here at It's Time Promotions has come around probably 15 years ago or more. So it comes from a story where Sharon had a little bit too much to drink one day, but I had, it was all sentimental and I was all like, you guys are so good. We were at a trade show and I was like, I just feel like we're like a flock of geese and we're all flying in unison. Ian Chisholm: [00:35:12] And the legend became real. Sharon DeKoning: [00:35:15] So now we call them ourselves. But it's true because like sometimes as a leader, you get tired at the front, you get to literally drop down to the back and you got to go back and you got to let somebody else lead. Or sometimes, you know, it's just like that. We call it the honking here at It's Time Promotion. So sometimes it's not even sometimes it's expected, you know, cheer, cheer your teammate on it, cheer somebody else on when they've done a good job. Show that recognition. If somebody needs help, you step up and you help them. Right? So we do follow it. And it's funny how it came about that way, but it actually stuck and it held and it, we actually do core values based on it and stuff. So there is truth to it and it's pretty cool how it works, but I believe that as a leader and an entrepreneur, you need to create other leaders to be able to grow your business. Ian Chisholm: [00:35:59] Yeah. And I think cheering each other on is one thing. And I also know there's a huge opportunity when mistakes get made, of how the leader sets the tone of the way we respond to mistakes. There's this wonderful clip. It's probably a couple of years old now of Sidney Crosby as the captain of the Pittsburgh Penguins, and somebody misses like a totally open net. And obviously his teammates on the bench are disappointed. Right. And they start chirping. And Sidney Crosby just says, guys I think he knows that. Yeah right. And it's such a great moment to you know, have that little bit of courage to say, wait, no, that's not what we're doing here. He made a mistake. We've all made mistakes. He doesn't need us to, like, chirp him. Sharon DeKoning: [00:36:45] Yeah. That's true. That's so true. I have to watch that clip too. That's very good. Yeah. I always say that you can't grow without making mistakes. We've made them sometimes as a business owner said damn it. Already paid for those mistakes and we're paying for it again. But as you grow, that's bound to happen and it's going to happen. And sometimes when they make their own mistakes, they'll learn something different that you learned from your first mistake. So it's all right. Tell me about it. I'm a workaholic. Help me. Ian Chisholm: [00:37:11] You tell me. This has been a real challenge for me over the years. It's interesting that more and more people are talking about it. I'm really interested in some of the ideas that Arthur Brooks has about the success trap that people who hustle and make things happen, then need to keep hustling, to keep making things happen, or else life doesn't feel very meaningful. And yeah, it's the thing that I'm learning. It's not easy, but it's the thing that I'm learning how to do. Sharon DeKoning: [00:37:42] I kind of have a hard time with the whole, this isn't the holistic life probably is different from what. In my mind, people call it work life balance and I call bullshit to that. I think work life balance is an entrepreneur. It's a thing, but it's not like being home at five and going home. I think you got to figure out what your work life balance is like. For me, it's, you know, I tell my family, I got to be with them like one week in the summer, one week in the fall, you know what I mean? We go somewhere like all the kids and stuff. So that's how I do my balance or go riding a horse on the weekends. Like what is your balance and figure out what that balance is. Work life balance isn't the same for everybody. It doesn't have to be 9 to 5, but figure out what your balance is. Ian Chisholm: [00:38:24] No, but it shouldn't be grinding ourselves down, like we do need to let that go. Sharon DeKoning: [00:38:30] Yes, but what happens if we like what we do? Ian Chisholm: [00:38:32] That's fine. I like chocolate cake, but I better not eat five of them a day. Sharon DeKoning: [00:38:37] Okay, I see what you mean. Because like people say, you work hard. It's like, yeah, I do. But wait, what else is supposed to go home, watch TV? I don't know, like, what else? I don't know, I don't know, like, I like doing what I do. Ian Chisholm: [00:38:48] I've met a few important ideas along the way. One comes from and as entrepreneurs, we have a gem in Canada called Strategic Coach, which was created by Dan Sullivan years ago. It's an amazing program, and it was in that program as a participant where I learned the four freedoms of entrepreneurship. And I think it's important for entrepreneurs to be reminded of these four freedoms. One is freedom of purpose. As an entrepreneur, you can use that hard work to do whatever you want to do. A freedom of relationships. You can do it with the people that you want to do it with ultimately, if you own a business. A freedom of finance. There'll be good years and bad years, but you're kind of the master of your own destiny when it comes to how much money you make, really. And lastly, the freedom of time. As an entrepreneur, you do not have to work from 9 to 5 or 8 to 6 or 60 hours a week. Actually, it buys you entire days that are free to have a really good life. That's the competition. As entrepreneurs, we should be comparing ourselves to each other. How many free days did you have this year? Free days where you did not even check your texts or emails. I mean a free day to go out and enjoy life for what it has to offer. That would be a really important indicator for entrepreneurs to keep track of, I think. Sharon DeKoning: [00:40:09] I think so too. You're right, because we're also creatures of habit. So. Right. So for me, like I'm used to work, I like what I do, but it's easy for me to do that. Sure. Does that make sense? It's easy. So it's just easy for me to keep doing it because at the end of the day, I'm fulfilled and I'm good and blah, blah, blah. Everything's great. But when you word it with these four freedoms, freedom of purpose, like the podcast now, my purpose right now is I want to help entrepreneurs. So I think, you know, freedom of relationship. Yeah, I don't really go out and do much. So maybe that's freedom of finance, of course, freedom of time. So I think when you look at it like that is the word freedom instead of like a yes, I'm fulfilled and yes, I'm doing all that stuff. But what's in lieu of that, I should focus on something or we all should focus on something that you can have for freedom. Like what do you want to do? Ian Chisholm: [00:40:59] Yeah. No, I think we can get into a groove, and it feels good. Sharon DeKoning: [00:41:03] Mhm. That's where I'm. Ian Chisholm: [00:41:04] At. But it doesn't allow for there to be any phase changes in our lives. Do you know what I mean? Like any quantum leaps where we actually have the space to make something new happen. I've definitely fallen into, like, we found an equation. We do great work. That work is meaningful to me. And I really like work. I'm a farm kid from Maidstone. Like, I like early mornings. I like feeling tired at the end of the day because I know I worked hard. Sharon DeKoning: [00:41:33] Yeah. Ian Chisholm: [00:41:34] But that identity has also introduced some limits in my life. Sharon DeKoning: [00:41:40] Right. Ian Chisholm: [00:41:42] And I'm not quite sure I want to just stay in that groove for as long as possible. Sharon DeKoning: [00:41:46] That's right. Yes, yes. So I think for me, I need, like I said, like, we're not entrepreneurs. I can never just take a day off. Like that's just something. If I was to take a day off, it would be because I'm sick. Maybe I don't know. Ian Chisholm: [00:41:57] And that's not true. You have more latitude than anyone else in society. As an entrepreneur, I take a day off. Heart surgeons can't take a day off. But you can. Sharon DeKoning: [00:42:08] I can, but what do I do? Ian Chisholm: [00:42:10] You can take three days off in a row. Sharon DeKoning: [00:42:12] Yeah. So I just got to have myself planned out for what I'm gonna do then, right? That's just. Ian Chisholm: [00:42:17] It's easy, because they have that latitude. Sharon DeKoning: [00:42:20] I can do it for sure. My team is here. They can do it. But it's for me mentally, like my mind, it would still keep going in the entrepreneurial mind. Ian Chisholm: [00:42:28] And that would be a great pattern to change over time. I would love for you to be able to- here's a little anecdote. This is really a problem for me. I mean, this has really been a struggle. And I started working with an incredible lady named Jill Payne. She would be great to have on the show. She's got so much hustle. Yeah. She's amazing. She played for Canada's national rugby team and yeah, we met several years ago. Our paths crisscrossed again and she was interested in the work. And I said to her, yeah, Jill, to tell you the truth, I'm kind of exhausted. And she thought and she was very respectful about it. And she said, well, actually, unless you've recently given birth or you're a refugee, you're not exhausted, you're just not managing your energy well. And I was like, okay, that is a strong conviction. Like I am now very interested in what Jill Payne does for a living because she just called me out. Right. I have no reason to be exhausted. Sharon DeKoning: [00:43:26] Isn't that the truth? Even at the end of the day, her brain, like, I'm not physically exhausted. I'm mentally exhausted. Ian Chisholm: [00:43:32] Yeah, no, it's the cognitive load and that's up to us and we can do something about it. If people want to check out Jill Payne's website, she's amazing as an entrepreneur. Yeah. I worked with Jill for eight months, nine months. And I would say it genuinely changed my life. Sharon DeKoning: [00:43:50] As a PANE or PAYNE. Okay, I'm going to get you to make an introduction to her for me. I would love to have her on the podcast too. Ian Chisholm: [00:43:59] Oh, she's a firecracker. You just wait. Sharon DeKoning: [00:44:01] I'm excited. Okay, so I'm definitely talking to you way too long here, right at 55 minutes. So sorry for everybody for keeping you on. But I think it's very educational. Anything that you want to add to this podcast before we wind down here, Ian? Ian Chisholm: [00:44:12] No, I mean that north star of mentorship. I would, I would leave you with one last thought. And that is to think about that person who earned the word mentor in your life, and then think about how old you were when that person really stepped up for you and really took you into a new chapter, into the world of work. And then think about how old that person was when they did that. And now think about how old you are now. And I think you'll see that it's exactly the right time for leaders across our country to really step up into those mentorship roles. They were about as old as we are now, and they really stepped up for us. And it means we gotta step things up for our next generation. Sharon DeKoning: [00:44:57] That's good. So think about the person who mentored you back in the day. Am I picking you up? Think about how old you were, Ian Chisholm: [00:45:03] Who was a mentor to you. Sharon DeKoning: [00:45:04] You who was a mentor. Okay. Yeah. Think about how old you were at that time. Ian Chisholm: [00:45:08] Exactly. Sharon DeKoning: [00:45:09] And then think about how old the mentor was at that time. Ian Chisholm: [00:45:13] And then the last question is, how old are you now? Sharon DeKoning: [00:45:15] How old are you now? Isn't that clever? Because I already have somebody in mind and I've tried to follow his footsteps all the time. Yeah. So that is remarkable. Okay. We talked about books, and I always like to give our listeners a key book that maybe you would like to share with them, that's very educational that could help them. Ian Chisholm: [00:45:31] Yeah, I really, one of my favorite books of all time is The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle. I think inspiring story, really great research. And I just, it's one of my favorite books. There's now a workbook as well. And I just as much of what we talked about today was a leader's role in creating the culture around them. And I think The Culture Code does a great job of making people hungry to go do that. Sharon DeKoning: [00:45:57] Awesome. I love that. I always asked what book? I have a whole library now. So it is a great question because everybody has different insights and different takes. And a lot of them, most of them I have never heard of. And I thought I was very up to date on reading books, but I guess not. Okay. Anything else before I sign off here? Ian Chisholm: [00:46:14] NO. Sharon DeKoning: [00:46:15] Okay. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today and our listeners today. Ian, maybe can you give us your handle so they can reach out to you also your website and stuff, please? Ian Chisholm: [00:46:24] We are at www.roygroup.net, ROY group.net. And the book has its own website, which is quietchampions.ca. Sharon DeKoning: [00:46:36] Okay. And you work with business owners just like myself and other entrepreneurs, is that correct? Ian Chisholm: [00:46:43] Yeah. Sharon DeKoning: [00:46:44] That's what you do. Okay, so if you're out there and you're a business owner and you need some help growing your business with leadership and anything else we talked about on the podcast today, please reach out. Ian Chisholm: [00:46:54] Would love to have a chat. Sharon DeKoning: [00:46:54] Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you so much for that, Ian. Ian Chisholm: [00:46:57] Thank you Sharon. Sharon DeKoning: [00:46:59] To our listeners, thank you so much for listening. If this talk about leadership helped you today, please subscribe to the podcast and share this episode with another business owner who is currently morphing into a leader. I highly encourage you to reach out to Ian and the team at Roy Group. They are the real deal when it comes to helping you find your purpose and creating those leaderships below you. If you've hit a learning curve lately or have questions you want us to tackle here on the podcast, please reach out. And if you have a topic you'd love to share with our community, email me at sharon@itpromo.ca. Until next time, keep giving back to your community, stay patient with yourself and remember it's time for success. Thank you everybody.