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Reflecting on 'Why I'm Not Excited About Nonduality Anymore' - Rupert Spira · Tracking Wisdom

• 0:03
  Peter: You're listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring the universal truths that we see woven through culture, consciousness, and the human experience.
• 0:18
  Ryan: Morning everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.
• 0:22
  Ryan: I'm Ryan.
• 0:23
  Peter: I'm Peter.
• 0:24
  Ryan: Today we're discussing a short clip from Rupert Spira's channel titled Why Am I Not Excited About Non-Duality Anymore?
• 0:34
  Ryan: Peter and I haven't watched this yet, so we're gonna listen to the clip together, and then we'll respond with our reactions and reflections.
• 0:42
  Ryan: Here we go
• 0:43
  Michael: I feel that I am at a, a empty point in my life and in my understanding of the teaching.
• 0:50
  Michael: And I'm sitting here hearing the teaching, being in the meditation, everything understood, but nothing touches me.
• 1:02
  Michael: And it's not-- It's just like everything was empty.
• 1:06
  Michael: And I feel maybe it has to do with age or something that I don't know.
• 1:10
  Michael: So maybe it's this thing that the old is not here anymore, but the new not here yet.
• 1:16
  Michael: And I'm sure maybe also, other people might have experienced that this wave movement of interest and understanding and enthusiasm also, and also joy to be in meditation.
• 1:30
  Michael: You know, so this started to, yeah, meditating.
• 1:33
  Michael: Why not?
• 1:34
  Michael: But also, why?
• 1:36
  Michael: So, and I wanted to know if you have any advice that you might give me.
• 1:41
  Rupert: Michael, are you at peace in yourself?
• 1:44
  Rupert: In general- Right throughout your day- I would say so do, do you feel, are you at peace?
• 1:49
  Rupert: Are, are you at rest?
• 1:50
  Michael: I think so.
• 1:51
  Michael: I mean, I'm here only for loving and helping.
• 1:54
  Michael: Also, not that I have to think about it.
• 1:56
  Rupert: Yeah but the reason I ask if you're, if you're at peace most of the time i- is that it's true that when we first hear about, I, and I know you've been familiar with the, the non-dual understanding for,
• 2:07
  Rupert: for many years, but when we first hear about non-dual, it, it's so exciting.
• 2:11
  Rupert: It's so elating.
• 2:13
  Rupert: We have, every day some marvelous new breakthrough.
• 2:19
  Rupert: So to begin with, we often experience this kind of heightened sense of, understanding and appreciation and enthusiasm.
• 2:27
  Rupert: And because it's in contrast with the old life of anxiety and sorrow, and suddenly now there are these periods where there's no sorrow, and there's no anxiety.
• 2:38
  Rupert: So, and it's elating.
• 2:39
  Rupert: It's exciting.
• 2:40
  Rupert: You're full of enthusiasm.
• 2:42
  Rupert: You're talking about it all the time.
• 2:43
  Rupert: You're reading about it all the time.
• 2:45
  Rupert: You're watching YouTube, going to retreats, and it's exciting.
• 2:48
  Rupert: But after a while, it becomes your natural state.
• 2:53
  Michael: It is like this.
• 2:54
  Rupert: Um, You don't talk about it all the time.
• 2:56
  Rupert: You don't think about it all the time.
• 2:57
  Rupert: You're not elated about it all the time.
• 2:59
  Rupert: It's not a special experience because you've kind of lost, almost lost the memory of the old sorrow and conflict and anxiety.
• 3:07
  Rupert: So you no longer have that experience to contrast it with.
• 3:10
  Rupert: It's just your natural-
• 3:13
  Michael: Wow
• 3:13
  Rupert: ease of being.
• 3:14
  Rupert: It's not, it's not bliss.
• 3:17
  Rupert: It's peace.
• 3:18
  Rupert: Or quiet joy, not, not ecstatic joy.
• 3:21
  Rupert: There mo- there may be moments of, of exuber- But it, it's That's why I often refer to more and more these days as a, I refer to quiet joy-
• 3:31
  Michael: Mm
• 3:31
  Rupert: rather than happiness.
• 3:32
  Rupert: Sometimes happiness feels like something bubbly and elated and, ju- just quiet joy.
• 3:39
  Rupert: E- even that i- is, is too much.
• 3:40
  Rupert: Just That's why I asked you if you were at peace, not, not whether you were happy.
• 3:44
  Michael: I am at peace.
• 3:45
  Rupert: Yes.
• 3:46
  Rupert: in a way, Life it's just gone back to simplicity- Yeah and peace.
• 3:50
  Michael: Now, while you talk, this is very helpful what you're telling me.
• 3:54
  Michael: Thank you.
• 3:54
  Ryan: I think I misunderstood the thumbnail.
• 3:56
  Ryan: I thought the clip was gonna be, um, Rupert explaining why he was no longer excited about non-duality.
• 4:03
  Peter: I was gonna say it was much more intriguing when it was Rupert asking the question, but in fact he did answer the question.
• 4:12
  Peter: I mean, w- we, I, I think that we s- I wanted to start the video because I wanted to hear why Rupert said he-
• 4:20
  Ryan: Right
• 4:20
  Peter: was not excited.
• 4:22
  Peter: But then he did, ultimately he did say I'm not excited anymore, and here's why.
• 4:27
  Peter: Because it's just so-
• 4:29
  Ryan: Normal
• 4:29
  Peter: commonplace, normal.
• 4:30
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 4:31
  Peter: Yeah.
• 4:32
  Ryan: What's your experience with that?
• 4:33
  Peter: Um- I can easily be wound up by the right contact.
• 4:40
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 4:40
  Peter: Like, if someone is curious about it, I will get really excited.
• 4:45
  Peter: I feel like I'm probably not where they're talking about, but I think by and large, I'm much more relaxed about it-
• 4:55
  Ryan: Mm
• 4:55
  Peter: than I was, say for the first year or so.
• 4:59
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 4:59
  Peter: I mean, at the beginning I was really thinking about, "Oh, how can I move?"
• 5:03
  Peter: You know?
• 5:03
  Peter: How can I progress?"
• 5:04
  Peter: And I've only talked about progressing recently in the context of not being interested in progressing.
• 5:12
  Ryan: Right.
• 5:13
  Ryan: Yeah, I feel like I can appreciate this a bit.
• 5:18
  Ryan: It's I think I've shared this before, but I might as well share it again.
• 5:23
  Ryan: I enjoy our work, I guess to Rupert's point, right?
• 5:28
  Ryan: He thinks about it when he's on retreat- Mm or somebody asks a question.
• 5:32
  Ryan: But otherwise, he doesn't think about it.
• 5:35
  Ryan: I really don't think about it.
• 5:37
  Ryan: And not only do I not think about it, often what I was finding was when we were, or I was, whatever, consuming a lot-
• 5:48
  Peter: Mm-hmm
• 5:49
  Ryan: it was actually distracting from the experience.
• 5:52
  Ryan: Like, it almost got too in the head that I was starting to lose contact with the experience.
• 6:00
  Ryan: I appreciated Rupert's description of joy and happiness because that's a repeated comment of mine is this idea of elation in contrast to the idea of peace, or quiet joy as he put it.
• 6:18
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 6:19
  Ryan: And he even said even that's a little too much, right?
• 6:22
  Ryan: So like this, this calm and peace is what I experience and pursue, and happiness or elation oftentimes I experience as like an anxiety.
• 6:35
  Ryan: It's overstimulating to me.
• 6:38
  Peter: So this is interesting to me, 'cause y- you're touching on my day-to-day experience.
• 6:43
  Peter: Because what I was gonna do is I was just about to walk back a little bit, from what I said about it being normal, compared to when I first experienced it.
• 6:53
  Peter: I think compared to what you were describing, I think I'm not quite that far.
• 6:59
  Ryan: Hmm.
• 7:00
  Peter: And, like I still get into, I wouldn't call it ecstasy I get into excited joy.
• 7:08
  Ryan: Mm.
• 7:09
  Peter: Because I find myself in conditioned reactivity experience so often, that I'm like, "Ugh, oh, this is really suffering.
• 7:20
  Peter: I'm still suffering."
• 7:21
  Ryan: Mm.
• 7:21
  Peter: "Where is the non-suffering?"
• 7:24
  Peter: And then I find my way back.
• 7:26
  Peter: And so, you know, I kind of say I don't really meditate anymore...
• 7:30
  Peter: except in groups.
• 7:31
  Peter: Like I'll, I'll go to a group and there's like a five-minute or t- 15-minute meditation or something like that, which is just part of the gathering, right?
• 7:39
  Peter: And then the rest of it is verbally shared experience.
• 7:42
  Peter: Or the GAE, you know, I do that for 90 minutes once or twice a week.
• 7:48
  Peter: But that's it.
• 7:49
  Peter: And to me, that's not that much.
• 7:51
  Peter: Like, you know, if you For me, if I'm not meditating every day, I'm kind of like, "Yeah, I'm not really-
• 7:55
  Ryan: Mm
• 7:55
  Peter: in formal practice anymore."
• 7:57
  Peter: You know?
• 7:57
  Peter: But what I have instead, I think, is what you might call living meditation or-
• 8:04
  Ryan: Mm-hmm
• 8:04
  Peter: it's like, "Oh, why am I meditating?
• 8:06
  Peter: Because I'm trying to find my way back to peace because I can recognize that I'm suffering."
• 8:10
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 8:11
  Peter: And so I'm walking myself home, and kind of re-exploring what it's like to shift from conditioned reactivity back to peace.
• 8:23
  Ryan: Mm.
• 8:24
  Peter: And along the way I do a variety of practices.
• 8:26
  Peter: It's kind of like whatever comes to me- is what the m- you know, it could be, could be body scan, it could be breathing, but it's never like, oh, 15 minutes of breathing.
• 8:36
  Peter: It's just like just a touch to remind me, oh, I don't need to suffer.
• 8:44
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 8:44
  Peter: So I guess to say, the non-duality isn't so familiar that I'm constantly there and not-
• 8:54
  Ryan: Mm-hmm
• 8:54
  Peter: not interested and I don't get excited about it.
• 8:58
  Peter: But at the same time It's not something that I elaborate on a lot to myself.
• 9:05
  Ryan: Right I don't think about it and I don't talk about it.
• 9:09
  Ryan: But when there is somebody who has a bit of that recognition and is interested in talking about it, I do enjoy engaging in some of that conversation.
• 9:19
  Ryan: But that's rare.
• 9:20
  Ryan: Like, I feel like you have more opportunities with that than I do.
• 9:23
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 9:25
  Ryan: Other than, you know, when we're talking.
• 9:27
  Ryan: Yeah, I'm just trying to, focus back on like the natural state.
• 9:31
  Ryan: Meaning, before we really started getting deep into these conversations a couple years ago, I had an organic practice experience.
• 9:42
  Ryan: And then, when we came into contact with, say, Jeffrey Martin's work and understanding a vernacular and a system behind to help describe and understand the experience a little bit.
• 9:58
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 9:58
  Ryan: I think that was useful in understanding the experience.
• 10:02
  Ryan: And I do think that going down some of that more intellectual stuff sorta distracted me a little bit from the organic.
• 10:11
  Ryan: And I don't regret it, I don't think it was a mistake at all.
• 10:14
  Peter: Mm-hmm
• 10:15
  Ryan: And so now I'm trying to allow myself to get back into the connection with the natural being-ness that had organically developed prior.
• 10:28
  Peter: I find a lot of contextual clues or environmental cues, I should say, not clues, are extremely evocative for me now.
• 10:39
  Peter: Like, being in the studio, talking to you is like, that's all I do here, right?
• 10:44
  Peter: And so it's very easy for me to settle in and be deep with...
• 10:50
  Peter: I mean, we don't pract- Mm-hmm We, we don't, it's not like we sit down before we get on the mic- and like, "Let's have a silent, you know, moment."
• 10:56
  Peter: You know, I'm just here, like right now.
• 10:59
  Peter: And, and talking about the experience is very, very deep practice for me.
• 11:07
  Ryan: Right.
• 11:08
  Peter: So I'm feeling like right now very, very tender and open and vulnerable.
• 11:14
  Peter: And it's, it's what to me is very familiar.
• 11:18
  Peter: It, it's, it's very much the quality of going deep, like working with someone else.
• 11:24
  Peter: But this is the thing, is that it's become a very social thing for me.
• 11:27
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 11:28
  Peter: I rarely am just by myself and bring myself deep.
• 11:34
  Peter: Is this not...
• 11:35
  Peter: Is it rare?
• 11:37
  Peter: It's not that rare.
• 11:38
  Peter: I mean, I'm sure compared to most people it's not rare at all.
• 11:41
  Peter: But, um, it's, it's weird 'cause I, in a way I'm comparing it to when I had daily practice.
• 11:46
  Ryan: Okay.
• 11:47
  Peter: But when I had daily practice, I hadn't really progressed-
• 11:52
  Ryan: Right
• 11:53
  Peter: to a kind of awakening experience.
• 11:55
  Peter: Yeah, so I'm kind of, have this kinda confused view of what is normal for me.
• 12:02
  Ryan: Mm.
• 12:03
  Peter: Or what is rare or frequent.
• 12:06
  Ryan: Right.
• 12:06
  Peter: And it's like, wait, isn't this guy a teacher?
• 12:08
  Peter: Like, you know?
• 12:10
  Peter: But, that, that's something that I've also come across with teachers is how much teachers suffer.
• 12:19
  Ryan: Mm.
• 12:19
  Peter: I mean, I, I really do feel like Good teachers are bodhisattvas.
• 12:25
  Ryan: Hmm.
• 12:25
  Peter: In other words, they are, enlightened beings who continue to go through suffering for the sake of helping, helping others.
• 12:33
  Ryan: Right.
• 12:34
  Peter: It's not that.
• 12:34
  Peter: You're not seeking out suffering.
• 12:36
  Peter: It's that you're willing to experience the suffering, and you see the value in having the experience because you recognize how helpful that can be to the next person you talk to.
• 12:51
  Ryan: Hmm.
• 12:52
  Peter: So first of all, I believe in that as a practice personally, but I'm also the beneficiary of that from teachers who are willing to be open and vulnerable about their, their own suffering.
• 13:13
  Peter: And it's not like, "Oh, I used to suffer," you know, "before I w- got awakened."
• 13:19
  Peter: It's like, no, I know every day I can go to the grocery store and be impatient with people, like, "Get out of my way."
• 13:27
  Peter: I mean, I'm not saying it, but- you're definitely having that experience of like, "Why are you, these people bothering me?"
• 13:33
  Peter: Because there's a way of accessing compassion that comes through being with your own suffering.
• 13:42
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 13:43
  Peter: I'm not saying it's better, 'cause I don't think that's true at all.
• 13:46
  Peter: You can also not really suffer very much.
• 13:49
  Peter: You can also be more blissful and then come into contact with suffering, and the compassion will be there.
• 13:55
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 13:56
  Peter: I think to be able to talk specifically about this experience.
• 14:00
  Peter: You know, like, "This happened to me last week."
• 14:02
  Peter: Right.
• 14:02
  Peter: Not like, "Oh, yeah, I remember when I used to be like that."
• 14:04
  Peter: No, no, no, no, no.
• 14:05
  Peter: You know, right?
• 14:06
  Peter: And, and yet, and still model the immediate presence of like, "Yeah, right now I'm present for you.
• 14:14
  Peter: Right now I am at peace, or right now y- you can bring anything to me.
• 14:18
  Peter: It is not triggering for me.
• 14:19
  Peter: It is not too much for me."
• 14:21
  Peter: Right?
• 14:22
  Peter: So what am I saying about that?
• 14:24
  Peter: I see for me the value in it.
• 14:28
  Peter: Um, I'm I, I basically know that I have a lot of shadow work to do.
• 14:34
  Peter: I have a lot of work with the conditioning to do, and really experiencing it is a very big part of it.
• 14:41
  Peter: And so I appreciate that, and I'm not, feeling sorry for myself and like, "Oh my God, how much more work do I have to do until I stop experiencing this?"
• 14:51
  Peter: Which was absolutely the way I was four years ago, three years ago, right?
• 14:57
  Ryan: Right.
• 14:57
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 14:58
  Peter: When I was, deep in practice and like, "This isn't working," right?
• 15:04
  Peter: Like, I believed in it, and I was committed to it, the practice.
• 15:07
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 15:08
  Peter: But there were times when it was just like, Why am I-"
• 15:13
  Ryan: Still suffering.
• 15:13
  Peter: "How long is it gonna be?"
• 15:15
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 15:15
  Peter: You know?
• 15:16
  Peter: And then it comes up.
• 15:18
  Peter: I mean, I've definitely had this conversation in a group of, "Yeah, what I'm wondering right now is when does suffering stop?"
• 15:27
  Peter: And then coming round to, well, it's okay.
• 15:32
  Peter: It's just part of the experience because we're still incarnated.
• 15:35
  Ryan: Right.
• 15:36
  Peter: So there's still suffering, and, and it's fine.
• 15:38
  Peter: And the, the return to equanimity versus the "why me?"
• 15:44
  Ryan: Right.
• 15:44
  Peter: And so I guess what I'm saying is it's that kind of sharing is so helpful.
• 15:52
  Peter: I mean, it's helpful when I hear peers share that.
• 15:58
  Peter: And I ha- I have peers who I consider so much more spacious than me, so much more graceful than I am, and, and then I, I see them suffering.
• 16:09
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 16:10
  Peter: You know?
• 16:11
  Peter: And it's, like, really meaningful.
• 16:13
  Peter: And it's not, it's not a si- schaden- schadenfreude.
• 16:17
  Peter: It's not like, "Oh, well, at least they're suffering too."
• 16:19
  Peter: You know?
• 16:20
  Peter: It's like a, "Oh, I guess they're not so much You know, I'm not so far behind them."
• 16:24
  Peter: It's not that.
• 16:25
  Peter: It's, coming back into contact with the compassion towards the suffering, and then also the recognition of the connectedness and, and the community and the sameness-
• 16:40
  Ryan: Mm
• 16:41
  Peter: And I'm hearing this come back to me as kind of sounding like an attachment to suffering.
• 16:48
  Peter: Like, "oh, suffering's good.
• 16:49
  Peter: And it's it's not that.
• 16:50
  Peter: It's just an appreciation for the experience.
• 16:53
  Ryan: Yeah
• 16:53
  Peter: Anyway.
• 16:54
  Peter: Well, that was interesting.
• 16:55
  Peter: I hope that's helpful to someone.
• 16:57
  Ryan: Indeed.
• 16:58
  Ryan: All right.
• 16:59
  Ryan: We'll talk to you next time.
• 17:00
  Peter: All right.
• 17:01
  Peter: Take care.
• 17:01
  Peter: Thanks.
• 17:01
  Ryan: Bye.
• 17:02
  Peter: Bye-bye.
• 17:04
  Peter: Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast.
• 17:07
  Peter: Join us next time as we continue the discussion.
• 17:10
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