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124: The Trail of Tears in Chattanooga, TN · Common Mystics

• 0:10
  Speaker A: On this episode of Common Mystics, we discuss a story of resilience, loss, and the quest for identity during a dark and transformative period in American history. I'm Jennifer James.
• 0:24
  Speaker B: I'm Jill Stanley.
• 0:25
  Speaker A: We're psychics.
• 0:26
  Speaker B: We're sisters.
• 0:28
  Speaker A: We are common mystics. We find extraordinary stories in ordinary places. And today's story comes to you from Chattanooga, Tennessee. I was going to say St. Elmo, and then I thought, no, St. Elmo is a neighborhood of Chattanooga, Right?
• 0:45
  Speaker B: Yes. Right.
• 0:46
  Speaker A: Very good.
• 0:47
  Speaker B: Why were we in Chattanooga?
• 0:49
  Speaker A: We were in Chattanooga for our niece's wedding. She.
• 0:52
  Speaker B: She looked beautiful. It was quite the day.
• 0:55
  Speaker A: I got a lot to Kelly and Nathaniel.
• 1:00
  Speaker B: You're so funny. She called him by the wrong name, so he literally was like, yeah, no, that's not my name. So I just call him Nate so I won't get confused. So I got smart. I got a little too tipsy. That's neither here nor there.
• 1:16
  Speaker A: Wow. You're calling that a little too tipsy?
• 1:19
  Speaker B: I would. Yeah. That wasn't bad.
• 1:21
  Speaker A: Oh.
• 1:21
  Speaker B: Oh, that wasn't bad.
• 1:22
  Speaker A: All right, all right. We'll talk offline.
• 1:24
  Speaker B: Okay. I don't think so. Anyway, so we got there a week before the wedding, and so what we're going to do is travel the area using Chattanooga as our home base. The first day we got on the road, it was a rainy, wah wah day. So we literally were just in the Chattanooga metro area.
• 1:42
  Speaker A: Yeah, it was pretty miserable.
• 1:44
  Speaker B: Yeah. But we got good stuff.
• 1:46
  Speaker A: We got good stuff. But it wasn't a day to be walking around outside. True.
• 1:52
  Speaker B: It was cold. It was cold and it was rainy, and.
• 1:56
  Speaker A: And we weren't gonna.
• 1:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, at some point during the day, it did dry up, and we got to walk around a magical little area of Chattanooga. Which we'll get to.
• 2:06
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 2:07
  Speaker B: Okay, so we're in the car. Jen. Yeah, Hit me up. What's our intention?
• 2:13
  Speaker A: We asked the spirits to lead us to a verifiable story previously unknown to us that allows us to give voice to the voiceless spirits.
• 2:24
  Speaker B: That's right. Very good. Very good. Now, Jen.
• 2:26
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 2:26
  Speaker B: We're in the car, and you are directing me to what appears to be the. What?
• 2:34
  Speaker A: I think it was the auditorium, like.
• 2:37
  Speaker B: This big theater aquarium.
• 2:39
  Speaker A: Oh, I.
• 2:42
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 2:43
  Speaker A: So what you have in these notes are a Q, U, I, r, m, U, n. So that's not on me.
• 2:51
  Speaker B: I still don't see anything wrong with that.
• 2:54
  Speaker A: However, I went back to my notes, and I was pulled to the soldiers auditorium as well. But now that you mention it, yes, the Aquarium? Yeah, the aquarium. The auditorium.
• 3:08
  Speaker B: The aquarium was literally down the street from us. And we, like. It was like our first left, and we ran into it. We were, like, staring straight at it. And you felt like that area was significant to our story.
• 3:22
  Speaker A: That's true.
• 3:23
  Speaker B: So what did I spell?
• 3:26
  Speaker A: Nothing. That.
• 3:27
  Speaker B: That's not. That didn't even show up. Red. That didn't even show up.
• 3:31
  Speaker A: Red capitalized the A. So it assumed it was some foreign word?
• 3:36
  Speaker B: No, no.
• 3:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, it assumed it was a name. Okay. So, Jill, what were you feeling?
• 3:42
  Speaker B: I felt like we needed to find some old things. It felt like downtown Chattanooga was, like, very new and we needed to go old.
• 3:50
  Speaker A: Yes. But the whole time we were driving around Chattanooga, we kept running into these signs, multiple signs about the Trail of Tears. There were markers after marker after marker, noting, this is a Trail of Tears. This is a Trail of Tears so much that we were like, well, are we, like, on the Trail of Tears? Like, is this whole area a trail of tears?
• 4:13
  Speaker B: Yeah. It kept saying segment. It was like, segment, end, segment begin. And we're like, what is happening? Why aren't the segments meeting up? Like, how did they get from one segment to the other? It was very confusing. But before we can dive into that, we were hangry. Always, always. And we ended up at. We pull into what looked shady in an industrial park because we were looking for something to eat, and it turned out there was a sandwich stop. What did the sandwich sandwich shop call itself?
• 4:44
  Speaker A: It was called the Tasty Heaven Sandwiches.
• 4:48
  Speaker B: And I literally. It was really cute, but in the car, I was like, I don't want to go in there. And Jennifer's like, it's Tasty Heaven. It can't be bad. And it wasn't. It was good. It was really good.
• 4:57
  Speaker A: It was really good.
• 4:58
  Speaker B: Not too bad.
• 4:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, we took it. We took it as a breadcrumb that it was all, like, heaven and God themed.
• 5:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, but we're just. We're just like chubs. So we're like.
• 5:08
  Speaker A: The food was good.
• 5:09
  Speaker B: Name anything heavenly and I'll eat it anyway. So I had in my head the song Let My People Go, and it's a song, I believe, about oppression of the Jewish people out of Israel by the pharaoh. I believe, like, Moses sings it. I don't know. Not like in a band, but, like, it was a song about Moses.
• 5:33
  Speaker A: Oh, nice.
• 5:35
  Speaker B: Mm. What were you feeling?
• 5:37
  Speaker A: I wanted to go to Harrison.
• 5:39
  Speaker B: You did want to go to Harrison, which was surprising because I felt like Harrison too, but I didn't say anything. But you're Like, I want to go to Harrison is Harrison.
• 5:46
  Speaker A: Harrison was a town, right?
• 5:48
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's northeast Chattanooga, not too far.
• 5:51
  Speaker A: So I wanted to head there, and you start going in that direction, and once again, we run into another historical marker sign of the trail of Tears.
• 6:00
  Speaker B: And once again, it was like a dead end. That dead end in Harrison is crazy.
• 6:05
  Speaker A: I was. Why I was feeling soldiers, but not Civil War soldiers. I was feeling pre Civil War. Like, the soldiers that were active were prior to the actual outbreak of the Civil War.
• 6:20
  Speaker B: It's interesting how the vibe of Chattanooga, you would assume you would be feeling strong Civil War vibes, but we weren't. We were thinking, like, revolution. We were talking, like, 1812. Like, there was definitely, like, soldiers feelings, but it wasn't specific to the Civil War. There was, like, a bunch of shit that happened there before that, and it.
• 6:39
  Speaker A: Was evident, at least that was reaching out to us.
• 6:43
  Speaker B: Yes. I felt as if there were bodies, like, in the. Like, on the ground. Like, bodies, like, just literally where they were walking. They just fell. That's what I was feeling.
• 6:56
  Speaker A: You actually said in or near the trail?
• 7:00
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 7:01
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 7:02
  Speaker B: But the confusing part is, is that I still don't know where the trail was.
• 7:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, no, neither do I. Yeah.
• 7:08
  Speaker B: Because it was like it starts to stop. To start to stop. So it was like, what is happening?
• 7:11
  Speaker A: It's here, it's there, it's here, it's there. It's everywhere.
• 7:14
  Speaker B: Right.
• 7:15
  Speaker A: So we were getting nothing but trail of Tears, and we decided to head south to southern Chattanooga.
• 7:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, it was. We just. We were looking for a cemetery in old af. Do you remember the cemetery?
• 7:29
  Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
• 7:29
  Speaker B: We were in traffic, and it turns everyone in front of us was going to the cemetery. Like, it was a busy day for the cemetery, right?
• 7:37
  Speaker A: Yeah. And for real, was it a funeral possession? Possession. I think Procession.
• 7:43
  Speaker B: I see what you did there. It'd be scary if it was a funeral possession. I would be like, oh, no. It was. It felt like it was. I'm not sure if it was a legit procession, but we, like, ended up at someone's funeral, so we couldn't get our spideys on.
• 7:59
  Speaker A: Right. It would have been tacky to get out and walk around while someone is being literally put in the ground with all their friends and family.
• 8:07
  Speaker B: But instead of going back the way we came, I wanted to hang a quick left, and we found the cutest little area that. So super cute. And at this time, it stopped raining. Jennifer, where did we find?
• 8:23
  Speaker A: We ended up in the neighborhood of St. Elmo, which is a. A Part of Chattanooga. A neighborhood of Chattanooga, Tennessee.
• 8:32
  Speaker B: Is it related to the Muffet?
• 8:34
  Speaker A: It is not. It is not related to the muppet.
• 8:38
  Speaker B: The bad 80s movie.
• 8:39
  Speaker A: Yes, it is related to the bad 80s movie with Rob Lowe and Demi.
• 8:45
  Speaker B: Demi. Yes, Demi. Okay, tell me a little bit about historic Elmo.
• 8:51
  Speaker A: Sing to Elmo.
• 8:54
  Speaker B: Sorry.
• 8:56
  Speaker A: This is one of those little locations that had us looking at real estate, and we started talking about, I could live here. Do you know what I mean? Because we're so charmed.
• 9:06
  Speaker B: It literally felt like a movie set.
• 9:08
  Speaker A: It did. It did. Historic St. Elmo is right in the heart of Chattanooga, Tennessee. And it isn't just a neighborhood. It literally feels like a place where history meets charm. It's just delightful. It's a vibrant little spot full of character. It's got rich. A rich, historic past, but also has a fresh, modern vibe.
• 9:32
  Speaker B: It also has beautiful wisteria trees. Like, we went in April, so the wisteria trees were just blossoming, and it just smelled so good. So on top of these, like, this quaint, charming section of the city, that it was also, like, hanging down, trees of flowers around us. It was just so beautiful.
• 9:54
  Speaker A: It was lovely. It was also haunted. Af.
• 9:58
  Speaker B: Oh, you're not wrong. For all the charm and the historic vibe we got from that area. You noted when we were looking at the church, you're like, this shit ain't that old, though. Like, we weren't, like New England old. This was not that old. So tell us about St. Elmo and one of the. How it's one of the first suburbs of Chattanooga, dating back only to the late 19th century.
• 10:24
  Speaker A: Right. It dates back to the 1800s. And like you said, it was the. One of the very first suburbs of Chattanooga. There was a man named Daniel Ross who is significant to the history of Chattanooga. He was a Scottish immigrant, and he settled in the area in 1785, and he became known as the very first settler.
• 10:47
  Speaker B: Ooh.
• 10:48
  Speaker A: Then in the late 1800s, there was a group of prominent Chattanooga residents who set out to escape the noise and the chaos of city life. And they were drawn to St. Elmo because of the St. Elmo Springs, which was a natural, beautiful, forested area. And so they were drawn there, away from the city, into the beautiful environment. And then they created a community there that blended peaceful living, a lively place for families, but also for commerce and culture. And through their hard work and determination, St. Elmo blossomed into a thriving suburb, and it became one of Chattanooga's most cherished neighborhoods, and I would say still is today.
• 11:35
  Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. And the, the structures that we were seeing were from the late 1800s and not from the 1700s.
• 11:42
  Speaker A: Right.
• 11:43
  Speaker B: So the fact that Daniel Ross jumped out at us when we were doing the research was really significant. Tell me a little bit about him and why he matters.
• 11:54
  Speaker A: Okay. So like I said before, he was a Scottish immigrant. As a teenager, he left Scotland and ventured to the Americas, arriving first in Baltimore, Maryland. And from there he joined the Mulberry Trading Expedition, which I looked, I tried.
• 12:12
  Speaker B: Looking up and from my understanding and, please, I'm not a historian, I don't really know what this is, but I think it is goods from Britain or the UK that, like, were imported here and they were bringing the goods south. And he, like, went with the expedition south. Like, he was like.
• 12:29
  Speaker A: It sounded like a job. Yes, it sounded like a job for a young guy who doesn't have any family. Of course he can travel.
• 12:36
  Speaker B: Right, right, right. Moving shit.
• 12:38
  Speaker A: Right. So he goes further south with the Mulberry Trading Expedition, and during his journey, he meets John McDonald. Now, John McDonald is a successful, wealthy trader, and he specializes in trading with the Native American people in the area.
• 12:57
  Speaker B: It's true.
• 12:58
  Speaker A: And he owns several trading posts in the region. And he was impressed by Daniel and offered him a position, a permanent position as a clerk at one of his trading operations.
• 13:11
  Speaker B: That's really nice.
• 13:13
  Speaker A: Yeah, he must have made an impression. Good for you, Daniel Ross. That's why I love immigrants, by the way. They're hard working. They want to make something of themselves. Now, Daniel became close to the McDonald family, John McDonald's family. Well, which of course he would because he didn't have his own family with him. Right.
• 13:30
  Speaker B: I was gonna make a fast food joke, but, yeah, never mind. That's okay.
• 13:36
  Speaker A: You're too slow. You have to go fast.
• 13:37
  Speaker B: You can see that you're not in the mood.
• 13:41
  Speaker A: John's wife was a Cherokee woman. She was a woman from the bird clan, apparently.
• 13:51
  Speaker B: Apparently the Cherokees have different clans. So there's like a wolf clan and a bird clan. So it's just adorable. I from. And I say that with reverence. Like, just having that specialty, like that little, like, different vibe is really special.
• 14:06
  Speaker A: The preschool in our school district has different animal rooms for the preschoolers. There's a. A chicken room and an alligator room.
• 14:14
  Speaker B: That's so fun.
• 14:15
  Speaker A: And a bunny room.
• 14:17
  Speaker B: We. The only thing in Polish that we are in Poland is like, you have the highlanders and then you have the lowlanders. Like, there's nothing.
• 14:24
  Speaker A: Don't pretend we know shit about Poland because we don't Know.
• 14:27
  Speaker B: Oh, my God. Do you not know the Polish Highlanders? Have you not gone to church?
• 14:32
  Speaker A: Are you an expert? No.
• 14:34
  Speaker B: My God. Really?
• 14:37
  Speaker A: You know kolachkis? You know Polish sausage, pierogi?
• 14:42
  Speaker B: Pretty much.
• 14:43
  Speaker A: And that's where your knowledge of Poland stops.
• 14:45
  Speaker B: Nuh. The Highlanders. Remember? I was a Polish princess in the second grade. I. I will show you the picture. I have it, and I'm not afraid to show it. Okay. They have a whole outfit that they wear and they walk around the church. I can't believe it. I don't know how you don't know this. Come on. I'm gonna show the Polish princess. Jess. I don't care. You know what picture I'm talking about, right?
• 15:12
  Speaker A: John's wife was a Cherokee woman of the Bird clan. And of course, she brought her culture to the family dynamic. John and his Cherokee wife had a daughter named Molly, who would later go on to marry Daniel. They were married on the banks of the Tennessee river, actually not far from the hotel we were at, Jill, in Chattanooga.
• 15:36
  Speaker B: I know, it's crazy.
• 15:38
  Speaker A: Together, Daniel and his wife Molly had eight children.
• 15:43
  Speaker B: That's rough. Molly.
• 15:44
  Speaker A: God bless you. God bless you. God bless you, Molly. And by all accounts, they were happy and they had a great life together. Their third child, named John, would go on to be one of the most influential Cherokee political leaders of the 1800s and played a pivotal role in establishing the Cherokee national government. And he served as the Cherokee Nation's principal chief for nearly 40 years. His name was John Ross, wasn't it, Jill? Yes.
• 16:19
  Speaker B: Yes, it was. Thank you for that.
• 16:23
  Speaker A: John Ross actually would go on to lead the Cherokee resistance against forced removal and dedicated his entire life to helping the Cherokee people rebuild the Indian territory after their displacement.
• 16:40
  Speaker B: Okay, I have questions. Okay. First off.
• 16:44
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 16:45
  Speaker B: How can John Ross be the chief of the Cherokee Nation? Cause he's only, like, from my understanding, a fourth native person.
• 16:57
  Speaker A: Correct. His mother, Molly, like her mother before her, was a member of the Cherokee tribe.
• 17:05
  Speaker B: Of course.
• 17:05
  Speaker A: That's how he gets his Cherokee blood. But the Cherokee are a matrilineal society and trace membership through the mother's line. Hence, John Ross was fully a member of the tribe, even though he probably looked, you know, mostly white, I would imagine.
• 17:26
  Speaker B: I would imagine so. And that's interesting. Although he kept his father's last name.
• 17:32
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 17:32
  Speaker B: He was. Inherited his position in the tribe through his mother. I kind of like that.
• 17:37
  Speaker A: You know what? It makes more sense.
• 17:39
  Speaker B: Yeah, it does.
• 17:40
  Speaker A: It makes more sense. You don't know. You don't know. I mean. I mean, I would know. You would know. Most of our listeners. All of our listeners would know who the father of their child is. But if you're looking at lines through history, it's much more verifiable who the mother is.
• 17:56
  Speaker B: Ain't that the truth?
• 17:58
  Speaker A: So the fact that we use.
• 17:59
  Speaker B: Good point.
• 18:00
  Speaker A: Thank you. The fact that we use patri. Patriarchal lines. I don't know what the word is. Patrilineal lines is kind of ridiculous.
• 18:09
  Speaker B: Mm, No, I totally agree. I mean, look at all the problems we had with Jefferson and like.
• 18:15
  Speaker A: Exactly. Right, exactly.
• 18:17
  Speaker B: So, okay, now when you say forced removal, this is my second question. Okay, I think I know what you're talking about, but I need you to be very clear with me. What are we talking? Force removal?
• 18:28
  Speaker A: Well, we are talking about an event known as the Trail of Tears. And just to be clear, that is not the only forced removal, but that's what we're talking about. There was a lot of different instances of forced removal of the native peoples off their ancestral homelands onto other areas.
• 18:50
  Speaker B: Right. We actually did an episode about it out of Indiana.
• 18:53
  Speaker A: Okay, that was a while ago.
• 18:55
  Speaker B: It was like season second. It was season two. It was like the third episode of season two.
• 19:00
  Speaker A: Right. But this was a coordinated, large scale effort. And we're talking about the Trail of Tears. Yes.
• 19:10
  Speaker B: So all the signs that we were driving around that day noting marking the sections of the Trail of Tears. And then we were brought by spirit to St. Elmo, which was settled by Daniel, whose son led the resistance against that very thing.
• 19:28
  Speaker A: I know, it gives me goosebumps.
• 19:30
  Speaker B: It gives it literally. Look at me, I'm goosebumpy. That's crazy. That is crazy because that's insane. Okay, so what exactly was a Trail of Tears and how did it start? I know you said it was a removal, but give me some background, because you don't just decide one day we're going to round up people off their land.
• 19:46
  Speaker A: Okay. The Trail of Tears was a result of an act known as the Indian removal Act of 1830. And the Indian Removal act was a law passed by the United States Congress and signed by President Andrew Jackson. Its goal was to relocate Native American tribes living in the southeastern United States to lands west of the Mississippi river, thereby opening those territories for settlement by American colonists.
• 20:22
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 20:22
  Speaker A: They just wanted to push em west.
• 20:25
  Speaker B: Okay. And my assumption of, like, I made a lot of assumptions about this growing up because I knew about the trailoteers and I assumed that there were ongoing conflicts, like, you know, with the settlers against the natives in these areas. That's what my assumption is. So they're like, we need some peace. We can't, like, have a growing infrastructure and community without some peace. So can we. Can we move these people away? That's what I thought. Just saying. But tell me what was happening here.
• 20:56
  Speaker A: Should I go to the next point or do you wanna talk about.
• 20:59
  Speaker B: I shall. I shall ask you to go to the next point because I just wanna be clear, like, what I thought it was. What was your understanding of the Trail of Tears as we were growing up or how it was taught in school even?
• 21:11
  Speaker A: My understanding was that the Native Americans were uncivilized, were savages, were dangerous, were living in, like, teepees and very rustic, sort of uncivilized, unorganized. Right. Habitats. And they were also violent. For good reason. But violent. Right. I would think violence. They would kind of, like, you see in the cowboy and Indian movies, where they would take their arrows and get on their horses and ride over, and then a bunch of them would, like, shoot.
• 21:48
  Speaker B: I love that this is going on YouTube because the writing was everything.
• 21:51
  Speaker A: Just now, I was just bouncing on my chair, and it might not be on YouTube if I can't figure out how to do it, but point being that I thought that in order to say, hey, guys, this isn't working, and we really want this land, so why don't we give you this land over here, way far west, over this big river that serves as a nice natural barrier so that we will stop fighting. Like, that's what I thought it was about.
• 22:16
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 22:17
  Speaker A: Like, no, that's still not fair. Yeah. Like, it still wasn't fair. Like, it wasn't presented. Like, this is a fair option, but just like, it had to be done because of the violence right there.
• 22:28
  Speaker B: Well, and I want to remind everyone, we're Team Tecumseh. Remember that. So I just want to say that we're looking at this thinking that there was conflict. Like, physical.
• 22:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, physical conflict. Because there is conflict. And we'll get to the conflict for sure. Yeah.
• 22:43
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 22:44
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 22:44
  Speaker B: So what were the consequences of this act?
• 22:48
  Speaker A: Well, the Trail of Tears led to the widespread suffering and loss for the indigenous peoples, of course, because they lost their lands. Not only that, but also their communities and not only that, their ancestral homelands, which we know spiritually they were very, very invested in. So it's not just them losing their homes. It's not like someone forcing me out of my home.
• 23:16
  Speaker B: Right.
• 23:17
  Speaker A: You know, it's someone forcing me out of my spiritual culture in a way.
• 23:23
  Speaker B: Oh, that's so Bad when you say it like that. And I just want to note that it wasn't just the Cherokee. It was the Creek. It was the Seminoles. It was the Chickasaw. It was the. I'm gonna really not say this one. Right. Co Ka Tao.
• 23:39
  Speaker A: Choctaw.
• 23:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, Choctaw. Let's go with your version. And this was all during the 1830s?
• 23:47
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 23:48
  Speaker B: How far was this distance, and how did people get there?
• 23:53
  Speaker A: So we're talking about moving from the area now known as Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama. Right. This general southeastern area of the now United States. And they were moving 1,000 miles with little food, no shelter along the way, really, or medical care. They were traveling in harsh weather. There was disease, there was starvation. And it is estimated that approximately 4,000 to, oh, 8,000 deaths occurred among the Cherokee alone, which was a quarter of their population at 4,000.
• 24:42
  Speaker B: Okay, so now John Ross was a leader of the Cherokee Nation at the time.
• 24:51
  Speaker A: That's what I said, Jill.
• 24:52
  Speaker B: That's what you said. But I'm feeling like, oh, failure. Can you tell me a little bit about this man? Because, like, I don't understand why he's celebrated. Because I don't want to, you know, ruin it for anyone. Spoiler alert. Doesn't go well.
• 25:08
  Speaker A: Yeah, no kidding. Okay, so let's break it down. Mr. John Ross, born in October of 1790 in a town called Turkey Town.
• 25:18
  Speaker B: I like Turkey Town.
• 25:19
  Speaker A: Sounds so cute. Turkey Town. That should be a sandwich shop right there.
• 25:25
  Speaker B: You heard it here first. You heard it here first. No one take that name. Okay, go on.
• 25:30
  Speaker A: Cherokee Town, which was a Cherokee settlement located near what is now center in Cherokee county, northeastern Alabama. Now, his upbringing can be described as bicultural because the influence of his mother's side, which was Cherokee, with his father's side, and, of course, the rest of the surrounding world that they lived in.
• 25:55
  Speaker B: His father, he had private tutors. He was very astute, and he wanted to teach his kids, like, business, so he did. They not only were well educated in the, like, a European type of way, but they also had this fresh blend of the Cherokee traditions and spiritualism. I know.
• 26:13
  Speaker A: I love that.
• 26:14
  Speaker B: I'm so jealous.
• 26:16
  Speaker A: As a young man, Ross followed his father's footsteps, running a ferry and a warehouse at Ross's Landing, the site of present day Chattanooga, Tennessee. Huh. He took part in the Creek War in 1813 and 1814, where the Cherokees teamed up with the United States to defeat a group of Creeks called the Red Sticks.
• 26:42
  Speaker B: Okay, keep going.
• 26:45
  Speaker A: He was just 19 years old when he served as an adjunct with Andrew Jackson during the Battle of Horseshoe Bend. And I know what you're going to ask me. What is an adjunct?
• 26:58
  Speaker B: Well, yeah. And how do you spell it?
• 27:01
  Speaker A: Don't worry about spelling it. But an adjunct is basically an officer who helps the commander handle administrative tasks. So he was an administrative assistant or.
• 27:10
  Speaker B: Secretary to, if not Andrew Jackson, someone very close to Andrew Jackson. So these two people would have met.
• 27:18
  Speaker A: I just want to say that Andrew and John Ross.
• 27:21
  Speaker B: Mm.
• 27:22
  Speaker A: Now, following the Creek War, John Ross acquired slaves.
• 27:30
  Speaker B: Isn't that interesting?
• 27:32
  Speaker A: Yes. And he cultivated 200 acres of land in what's now Rossville, Georgia. So he owned black slaves.
• 27:41
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 27:43
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 27:44
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 27:45
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 27:46
  Speaker B: That's so complicated, huh? I thought it was worth leaving it in because that's really the history of it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want to muddy the waters with it, but no, the man owned slaves. I mean, you got to call a thing. A thing. He was a slave owner.
• 28:02
  Speaker A: Wow. He also became active in tribal politics. By the age of 26, he was elected to the Cherokee National Council.
• 28:15
  Speaker B: That's something, because I was impressive. I was, like, doing nothing at 26. Like, honestly, like, I just. Like. You know what I mean? Like, 26 are the president, but the Cherokee National Council. That's crazy.
• 28:31
  Speaker A: Yeah. I was doing a lot of partying at 26, so. Yeah, good on you. He sounds boring.
• 28:41
  Speaker B: Though they also did live a short amount of time, so. You know what I mean? Yeah. So whatever.
• 28:47
  Speaker A: Today's 26 isn't the same 26 as.
• 28:50
  Speaker B: Like, today's 26 is like, my 50. You know what I'm saying? Like, right now I'm still in my adult teen years, but I'll get there.
• 28:57
  Speaker A: I'll get there.
• 28:58
  Speaker B: I'll lead a nation.
• 29:01
  Speaker A: I hope not. It's not going to go well. It's not. Okay. So John Ross, age 26, elected to the Cherokee National Council, joined a group of progressive leaders who are advocating for a shift away from traditional governing practices. And these leaders emphasize the importance of written laws and the establishment of a national government and national government institutions that would guide the Cherokee Nation's future. Oh, I see. So these progressive ideas are progressive to the Cherokee people. Yes. Who previously didn't rely on written documents.
• 29:43
  Speaker B: Right.
• 29:44
  Speaker A: They were more oral. Oral traditions, cultural traditions.
• 29:49
  Speaker B: They were handshake kind of people, you know what I'm saying? Like, their word was their word. Yes.
• 29:54
  Speaker A: Rites of passage. Right. Symbolism.
• 29:57
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 29:58
  Speaker A: Yes. All of that ritual. Okay, got it.
• 30:02
  Speaker B: So, John Ross.
• 30:04
  Speaker A: Yes. It's a banner Year in 1827, Jill.
• 30:08
  Speaker B: It really is.
• 30:09
  Speaker A: It's a banner year because he sits down with his fancy pen. Probably one of those kinds that you have to dip in the ink, which would suck, by the way. But he did it. He did it.
• 30:21
  Speaker B: I can't read my handwriting in general. Can you imagine if I had ink blocks in there?
• 30:26
  Speaker A: No. And it doesn't help if you're left handed because you have to drag your hand over it. I know. Yeah, I know. It would have been. You would have been even more of a mess than you are today. But anyway, he sat down with his fancy pen and he drafted a constitution for the Cherokee Nation. And guess where he drew inspiration from in drafting this constitution?
• 30:50
  Speaker B: I'd never guess.
• 30:52
  Speaker A: He based it on the principles and structure of the United States Constitution.
• 30:57
  Speaker B: That is super duper smart in ways that I can't even fathom. Like, that's really smart.
• 31:05
  Speaker A: Well, it sounds like he's like, copying someone else's homework is what it sounds like.
• 31:10
  Speaker B: It sounds like he wants the United States government to take him and his nation seriously. So he's using the tools of the United States against itself. That's what it seems like to me.
• 31:22
  Speaker A: Well, it was a groundbreaking document for the Cherokee Nation because it sought to unify the Cherokee people under some sort of formal system of government. Right, okay. It formalized the structure of the government, including a court system.
• 31:41
  Speaker B: That's huge.
• 31:43
  Speaker A: It reinforced national sovereignty, See? Asserting the Cherokee Nation's rights to self governance. Oh, see, now that part he plagiarized. You know that he did.
• 31:57
  Speaker B: You know what? I'm not mad at him for it. Do what you got to do. Boo.
• 32:02
  Speaker A: It was a ballsy and significant step towards preserving Cherokee identity and autonomy, especially in the face of increasing pressure from the United States government and encroaching settlers.
• 32:20
  Speaker B: Now, I want to understand the pressure of the. Like, where is this pressure coming from? Because he sound like this Cherokee Nation sounded legit to me. So where is this pressure coming from that they're like, you know what? We just got to. We just got to keep this going. Get these people out of here. Tell me what you're referring to.
• 32:37
  Speaker A: Okay, so most of them are living in parts of Georgia now. They're not all in parts of Georgia. They're in South Carolina, Alabama. Like, the state lines weren't the same then as they are now. Right, right. But people in Georgia were arguing that they had a right to the land that was owned by the Cherokee people. Okay. And they were reasoning this because back in the year 1802, Georgia and the United States had an agreement, okay. And the agreement was that Georgia, we want to take some of the land within your boundaries. Right. Or yeah. Within your boundary on the West. We want to take that because we want to make it a part of a different state. Okay, but we're going to take it. But all of the claims by Native Americans within your new boundaries, we're going to extinguish them. We're going to pretend like they never existed. So you give us this little sliver of your state on the west, we're going to give you all of the. The land that the Native Americans are claiming is theirs. And we're also going to give you some money. Okay? That's the deal. Take it or leave it. And Georgia said, hell, yeah, we'll take it. You can take that little piece of the West. And now Georgia is under the impression that if you're a Native American, you have no right to land in the state of Georgia.
• 34:06
  Speaker B: Damn. Okay. That's fucked up the United States. And I'll tell you why. You can't give away lands that aren't yours. What are you doing anyway? That's like, how are you going to give away someone else's land?
• 34:17
  Speaker A: Okay, very logical. But there's another thing that I want to tell you, Jill, that wasn't in the outline, but I thought was very interesting.
• 34:23
  Speaker B: I like when you do this.
• 34:26
  Speaker A: Then in 1817, okay, so there was that treaty, and that happened in 1817, the United States started to say, okay, Cherokee, we could make you move. We know we have the power to do that as the great United States. Right. We're a great power and you are not. And therefore we could do that to you. But you know what? Let's just sweeten the deal here. How about you willingly choose to leave? Why would we do that, you might ask. You might do that because we're going to offer you free land. If you go to Arkansas, you can get all this free land. And we're going to give you money, too. So we're going to give you a payment. We're going to give you this land. And not only that, we are going to help you move. We are going to give you provisions, we are going to give you wagons. We are going to set you up with a new life in Arkansas. Take it or leave it. Yeah.
• 35:24
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 35:25
  Speaker A: Pretty sweet deal. And you know what? There were a lot of Cherokee who said, that deal is too good to pass up. And they took it and they settled in Arkansas.
• 35:39
  Speaker B: Nice.
• 35:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, that becomes very important a little later. On.
• 35:44
  Speaker B: Ooh, I like this. Okay. Okay, so now my next question.
• 35:49
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 35:50
  Speaker B: Well, let me just speed this up. 1828, Ross was elected the principal chief.
• 35:55
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 35:56
  Speaker B: Okay. And that position he held for the rest of his life. And as we know, in the 1830s, the Indian. This is what it was called, the Indian Removal act was signed in 1830.
• 36:07
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 36:08
  Speaker B: Yes, in 1830. Now this is my question.
• 36:10
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 36:12
  Speaker B: What was John Ross doing? Like, it's like, it's not going well. Like, what are you doing? What. What kind of pull do you have? Like, yes, you wrote this constitution a couple years before, but it's not stopping anything. So you need a new plan. Contingency, please. Jen, what is he doing?
• 36:29
  Speaker A: Well, I think it's important to understand, first of all, and we kind of hinted at this, that John Ross and the Cherokee Nation, as it was known, they were willing to assimilate. In fact, they were assimilating. Is that what you wanted me to go to, Jill?
• 36:45
  Speaker B: Yes. I think that's brilliant.
• 36:47
  Speaker A: They weren't fighting against the white settlers there. They were living amongst the white settlers there. And I shouldn't say white. I should say the European. Right. Because John Ross was probably looking pretty white himself. Right?
• 37:04
  Speaker B: He was looking pretty white.
• 37:05
  Speaker A: He was looking pretty white.
• 37:06
  Speaker B: He was white. I'm going to go on a limb and say do white.
• 37:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. In fact, he wrote a letter saying, we, meaning the Cherokee, consider ourselves part of the great family of the Republic of the United States.
• 37:23
  Speaker B: It's actually beautiful when he put it like that. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, oh, that's sweet.
• 37:28
  Speaker A: Right. And so he was able to take the tools of the American democracy and put them to use for his cause. And give me examples.
• 37:37
  Speaker B: What does that look like?
• 37:39
  Speaker A: Well, other than writing a constitution, which totally probably plagiarized, he also started a newspaper.
• 37:46
  Speaker B: That's amazing.
• 37:47
  Speaker A: The Cherokee had their own newspaper. It was groundbreaking. It had articles in both Cherokee and English. That's fricking fantastic. I want to know what written Cherokee looks like. I want to see it, because that sounds crazy.
• 38:02
  Speaker B: We could probably look it up on newspaper dot com.
• 38:05
  Speaker A: Oh, my God, Jill. Oh, my God.
• 38:10
  Speaker B: I don't know how long, but have you been texting Dennis this entire time?
• 38:16
  Speaker A: Texting Dennis? This? Yes. This has all been on a long, giant voice to text. I'm not going to send it. It's ridiculous. Okay.
• 38:26
  Speaker B: Anyway, you have to send it. You please send it this second. I'm gonna send it. I'm not gonna send it. Please send it. Please send it. Jennifer.
• 38:39
  Speaker A: All right, I'll send it. He's gonna be so damn confused.
• 38:42
  Speaker B: Don't say anything. Don't say anything. Don't respond. Just leave it there until he gets home. Just leave it. So funny.
• 38:53
  Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Technology today does what it works to navigate. Yeah. Cherokee and English newspaper, and they used it as a powerful political tool because it gave them leverage to share their ideas from their perspective. And, you know, that never happens in the newspapers.
• 39:14
  Speaker B: No. And you know what's really cool, people?
• 39:16
  Speaker A: What?
• 39:16
  Speaker B: What's really cool about it is because it was not only written in Cherokee, but in English, that English newspapers like the New York Times and like the Atlanta whatever were publishing articles from the Cherokee's point of view during the time. So it really gave people, like, context of what was happening.
• 39:34
  Speaker A: Right. And he needed allies, because at the end of the day, he knew that his nation was small and weak compared to the United States, especially when so.
• 39:42
  Speaker B: Many of, you know, other people in different nations were going and signing these agreements with the United States government. His people are getting smaller and smaller and smaller.
• 39:52
  Speaker A: Right. So through these means, he was able to make allies with Christian people. And women. Women were very important, even though they were unable to vote at the time. I think women have a really good way of influencing the men in their lives to make them do what they want.
• 40:11
  Speaker B: You got to be subtle with it, though. You got to massage it in.
• 40:14
  Speaker A: And then they exercised their right to petition, they signed appeals, and they even sent them to the United States Congress in an effort to legitimize the claim that the Cherokee people had on the Cherokee Nation.
• 40:33
  Speaker B: Wow. But it didn't end there.
• 40:36
  Speaker A: It did not end there.
• 40:38
  Speaker B: Ultimately, this pressure from the Georgians resulted in a supreme Supreme Court case.
• 40:45
  Speaker A: Yes. Okay.
• 40:46
  Speaker B: Which I'm sure they lost, because, spoiler alert, they're moving off the land. Trail of Tears. So just let's move on. Don't give me hope.
• 40:58
  Speaker A: Okay, let me tell you what happened. So, 1827, you know, the Cherokee Nation writes the Constitution. They writes their. They write their Constitution that they plagiarized. We already went through this.
• 41:08
  Speaker B: Stop it. They did not plagiarize it.
• 41:10
  Speaker A: They kind of did. And then Georgia. Because they're living in Georgia, Right. Georgia says the Cherokee government is abolished and its citizens are actually subject to the state of Georgia. So that was Georgia's statement to the Cherokee Nation. Okay? So the Cherokee Nation replied by suing the state of Georgia in the Supreme Court. And that court case is Cherokee Nation versus Georgia, 1831.
• 41:39
  Speaker B: Okay. Again, these people aren't Taking arms against the Georgians. No, they're using the courts of the United States government.
• 41:48
  Speaker A: They're their neighbors. Yeah. They're not attacking them. They're not a different cultural people at this time. These are people who are assimilated into Georgian society.
• 41:58
  Speaker B: Okay, again, so they're in front of the Supreme Court. Do not give me hope. I know. They lost.
• 42:03
  Speaker A: Well, the Supreme Court dismissed the case because the Supreme Court said that we only make decisions about cases between foreign governments and the United states under Article 3 of the Constitution, which, you know, because we know you read it because you plagiarized it. Right. And. And the Supreme Court said, you're not a foreign nation. What you are. Cherokee Nation is a domestic dependent nation. In other words, you're not self sufficient. You need our shit. Right. Like, you're not foreign. So we're dismissing it. We. We're not getting involved. This is below us, Right? This is below us. But then, Jill, there was another case a year later. There was a case involving a man named Samuel Worchester. Have you heard of Samuel Worchester?
• 42:53
  Speaker B: I have.
• 42:54
  Speaker A: He was a missionary and a US Postmaster who was happened to be living in the Cherokee Nation, but the state of Georgia found him and imprisoned him because he didn't have a state license. Oh. Mm. So what happened was that case was called. That one went to the Supreme Court. It was called Worcester. Second. Second. Yes.
• 43:21
  Speaker B: This is the second case. Yes.
• 43:23
  Speaker A: And ostensibly, it has nothing to do with the Cherokee people. This is about Sam Worster and the state.
• 43:31
  Speaker B: But my point is, Georgia's feeling pretty freaking confident.
• 43:33
  Speaker A: Yes, they are. Yeah.
• 43:35
  Speaker B: Because the Supreme Court already sided with them once.
• 43:37
  Speaker A: Well, the Supreme Court refused to side either way. But this time, the Supreme Court said that Georgia had no power to enforce its laws in the Cherokee Nation. Therefore, Sam Worchester should not have been imprisoned if he was living on Cherokee lands.
• 44:02
  Speaker B: That is crazy.
• 44:04
  Speaker A: And that was a win for the Cherokee Nation. Basically, the Supreme Court said, they are a nation. Your laws are not valid there. Does that help you, Jill?
• 44:15
  Speaker B: Not only that, but arguably one of the most important Supreme Court justices, John Marshall of the time, because, you know, there's been many. He said that it was blindingly obvious that the Cherokees had the right to govern themselves on their land and had had that right since before colonial times.
• 44:38
  Speaker A: Oh, that just chills. Damn.
• 44:41
  Speaker B: That's a burn. Like, if you guys keep fucking around here, we're gonna just have to. Like, we're just gonna have to drop Mike. We're just gonna have to mic. Drop it and just like, come on, Georgian, get your heads out of your ass. Okay, so this is my question.
• 44:55
  Speaker A: My husband is responding to the content that I accidentally sent him. He said, I know they wrote down Cherokee so they could demonstrate it was a real language and that they were a real culture.
• 45:11
  Speaker B: PR Move.
• 45:12
  Speaker A: PR move. But not unwarranted. Okay, there you go.
• 45:15
  Speaker B: There. Thank you. Thank you, Jennifer. This is the. This is my thing, though. This is my thing.
• 45:21
  Speaker A: This is my thing. What's your thing? What's your thing?
• 45:23
  Speaker B: They did the thing though. Like the Trail of Tears happened.
• 45:27
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
• 45:28
  Speaker B: So I don't understand how this was a report. Yes. How was this a win for the Cherokees? Because shit went bad. Tell me, how are you translating this as good for the Cherokees?
• 45:40
  Speaker A: The problem for the Cherokee was the president at the time.
• 45:45
  Speaker B: Okay, so it was a good, the ruling was good for the Cherokee. So they're like, yay, it's good.
• 45:49
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 45:50
  Speaker B: But they didn't see that the problem was bigger than the Supreme Court ruling. They didn't see that we had a dick of a president at the time.
• 46:00
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 46:01
  Speaker B: Is that what you're telling me?
• 46:02
  Speaker A: Well, they didn't study the entire Constitution. Apparently they focused on certain sections and they skipped over the balance of power part because Andrew Jackson was a notorious Indian hater. And I'm just going to say it because those are the words that were used about him. And he didn't give an F what the Supreme Court said. He said, john Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it. Which meaning of course he can't enforce it. The Supreme Court doesn't enforce the laws, they just interpret them. Right, exactly. The executive branch that enforces the laws. And the head of the executive branch was Andrew Jackson and that is one, one decision he was not going to enforce.
• 46:53
  Speaker B: Yeah. So after all these years of efforts to fight for the sovereign nation, for the Cherokees, nothing helped.
• 47:04
  Speaker A: Well, they were forcibly removed in the 1830s during the trail of Tears.
• 47:11
  Speaker B: So after all John Ross's effort for years, putting together the Constitution, getting newspapers, organizing women to fight for this cause he loses. Because Andrew Jackson is just a. A dick, A prejudiced dick is what you're telling me.
• 47:31
  Speaker A: Well, Andrew Jackson and a lot of other people who really wanted the land. Right. So I'm a little confused because did it take eight years for them to start moving them? It did. Took eight years. So it was signed in 1830.
• 47:49
  Speaker B: The, the act was signed in 1830. And there are these court cases.
• 47:52
  Speaker A: Got it. Well, in the spring of 1830, 8. The Cherokee Nation was doing what they were doing as planters. They were planting as crops, as American.
• 48:05
  Speaker B: Communities do in the South.
• 48:08
  Speaker A: And while they were, American soldiers were preparing stockades to put them in and to collect them for a shipment to the West. There is a haunting letter that comes from a soldier recounting his experience in the North Carolina countryside. He was tasked with rounding up hundreds of Cherokees. He and his men forced them to march mile after mile along the road. And he, in his letter, vividly describes the ordeal, the struggle of the children, the struggle of the elderly as they trudged forward, step by painful step. The only sounds were the distant rumble of thunder, an ominous echo that seemed to foreshadow judgment for the cruelty that they were inflicting on these people. Even the soldier himself called it an act of. Of oppression.
• 49:13
  Speaker B: Oh, my God. I mean, I feel for the soldiers, too, because they didn't want to have to do this, you know?
• 49:19
  Speaker A: Right. Yeah. They were following orders.
• 49:22
  Speaker B: Okay, so John Ross, what's he doing? What's he. What is he doing here?
• 49:27
  Speaker A: Well, in 1838, he, like so many others, were faced with the deployment of US Military forces to Cherokee territory.
• 49:37
  Speaker B: So he went to.
• 49:38
  Speaker A: He was ultimately forced to be removed. He was forced, forcibly removed.
• 49:44
  Speaker B: And again, the man's white.
• 49:47
  Speaker A: Yeah. During the harrowing journey west known as the Trail of Tears.
• 49:53
  Speaker B: On the Trail of Tears.
• 49:54
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 49:55
  Speaker B: Him and his family.
• 49:56
  Speaker A: Yes. Where over 4,000 Cherokee people perished, including Ross's first wife, whom he had married in 1813 and with whom he had six children.
• 50:11
  Speaker B: I just can't even imagine, like, fighting for so many years, and then the worst case scenario happens, like, nope, you're going anyway, and your wife dies along the way. I guess that's not the worst case scenario because other members of his family could have died, too. But that's, like. That's pretty harsh.
• 50:29
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 50:30
  Speaker B: So he was devastated, a broken man. Am I right? Because.
• 50:35
  Speaker A: No, actually, he never gave up. Now, here's the interesting thing. When they arrived, things were not good for the Cherokee Nation. Do you remember in 1817, the United States government were like, here's land, here's money. We'll even hook you up. Right? Give you wagons, like, help you move. Those people had already settled the area.
• 50:59
  Speaker B: Got it.
• 51:00
  Speaker A: And so now you have this new group who had. Who had held out and now were forcibly removed. And the two groups were different culturally. They had become two different, like, political entities. And so John Ross, once he got there, once again took over leadership of the people through conflicts. And honestly, the federal government was watching this and almost separated them into two different factions. Like, that's how bad the infighting was amongst the Cherokee in out West. Isn't that crazy?
• 51:39
  Speaker B: That is crazy. I did not realize that.
• 51:41
  Speaker A: Yeah. So despite the chaos, Ross continued to unify the Cherokee people out West. He did marry again, a Quaker from Delaware. He had two more children. He also rose to national prominence during the American Civil War. Yeah. He continued to leave the Cherokee Nation and go to Washington, D.C. to continue to lobby and advocate tirelessly for his people. He passed away in 1866.
• 52:16
  Speaker B: And his legacy, on one of those trips to Washington. He died in Washington.
• 52:21
  Speaker A: He died in Washington, D.C. in 1866. Wow. And his legacy came full circle when his remains were laid to rest in a family plot in the heart of the Cherokee Nation. Wow. That is so crazy.
• 52:39
  Speaker B: So much of this is just.
• 52:42
  Speaker A: Okay, I think the voiceless are obvious, but I know that you want to step up onto your soapbox, so step up there and let's do this. Jill, who are the voiceless?
• 52:55
  Speaker B: Okay. I don't know what you mean by that. I don't understand. I think once again, the natives, including the Cherokee, are the voiceless. Because not only did we do them wrong in such a blatant way, because they were peaceful, because they wanted to be a part of the American dream. And they did everything they could using the United States legal system to see about that dream. We still shit on them.
• 53:29
  Speaker A: And don't say we. Don't say we. We weren't there.
• 53:32
  Speaker B: The United States shit on them and arguably caused a genocide moving them to a different part of the country. And it's just a smack in the face that we are downplaying this history in schools, in modern American teachings.
• 53:56
  Speaker A: Okay, so you're making some assumptions here.
• 53:59
  Speaker B: I think I'm making. I am talking about my personal experience going through Catholic school and not only parochial school, but public school system. And this is not the version of the Trail of Tears and the version of why these people were removed.
• 54:16
  Speaker A: I haven't taught in a classroom in a long time, but I know that the social studies has changed a lot over the years. So let's give the American school system a benefit of the doubt. But all of us old people, we bring to the table old outdated notions about what that looked like.
• 54:36
  Speaker B: And apparently math, our math has changed too.
• 54:41
  Speaker A: Yes, math has changed, too. Okay, so, Jill, are you a fan of John Ross's?
• 54:49
  Speaker B: You know I am.
• 54:51
  Speaker A: Okay. Even though he was a flawed individual and a failure. Arguably true. I didn't think you were Gonna come down that hard on him. I thought that you were gonna say yes. You're a fan of John Ross's.
• 55:06
  Speaker B: Yeah, I am a fan of John Ross's, but he's a flawed individual that failed in his task and yet he had the advocacy and the perseverance to never give up till his death. Like, seriously, even though bad shit kept happening to him and his family and his nation, he fought tirelessly for the well beings of the Cherokee and the nation and showing unwavering commitment at some point. I mean, we have this podcast, right? We do, we have this podcast and when we don't hear back from like the fans or we don't see the numbers going up, we're like, fuck it. You know what I'm saying?
• 55:49
  Speaker A: I know exactly what you're saying. We just had this conversation the other.
• 55:52
  Speaker B: Day and my point is this man is working tires. He's like, I'm going to get this constitution going. And they're like, yeah, that doesn't matter, sir. And then he's like, okay, I'm going to write this newspaper and everyone's going to understand our point of view. Yeah, that doesn't matter. We're going to go to the Supreme Court. Yeah, no, go back to your nation. We're going to go to the Supreme Court again and we win it this time and this is good things for us. And then Andrew Jackson's like, no, Fuck. And by the way, Andrew Jackson, fuck you. Fuck you so hard. And let me tell you why. You knew this man. You looked this man in the face. He fought on with you to protect your lands and you shit on him and his people. Fuck you, Andrew Jackson, you slave owning piece of fucking shit. And you know what I read during this research is that after the removal of the native peoples from their lands, slavery went up, plantation wealth went up. It was a resurgence of slavery in the United States because of yours motherfucking truly, Andrew fucking Jackson. Fuck you.
• 56:58
  Speaker A: Oh my goodness. Well, Jill, thanks. I'm not done. Oh, no, I'm not done.
• 57:04
  Speaker B: I also like John Ross because his loyalty to the community, his long term visit, and his adaptability in leadership. Okay, okay, I like that too. But fuck you, Andrew Jackson.
• 57:14
  Speaker A: Do me a favor and I want you to take me through the hits because I don't see all the connections and I know you're all together. All right. Do you find me? Yes.
• 57:21
  Speaker B: I was excited. Okay. The aquarium, yeah, was across the street from John's. John Ross's landing. Ross's Landing, the site of his trading post. And the site where his parents got married.
• 57:38
  Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
• 57:39
  Speaker B: Yes. So when you're like, this seems important. And we noted the aquarium, it's like.
• 57:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, I was looking across. I was looking at the aquarium. But across the river from the aquarium.
• 57:51
  Speaker B: It was right across the street.
• 57:53
  Speaker A: Oh, across the street.
• 57:55
  Speaker B: There's a park there that Dennis, your husband, had to walk through to get that magnificent burger he raved about. And it was walking distance from our hotel.
• 58:04
  Speaker A: That is nuts. Okay, tell me more. Tell me more. I like this.
• 58:07
  Speaker B: Okay. All the Trail of Tierra Markers. Like, are you kidding me?
• 58:11
  Speaker A: Keep going. Keep going.
• 58:12
  Speaker B: Let my people go. It's like the Moses song. Like, you know what I mean? So many connections there. Like oppressed people, people being led out of the land.
• 58:23
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 58:23
  Speaker B: So, like, the whole thing.
• 58:25
  Speaker A: Got it.
• 58:26
  Speaker B: Head to Harrison. Harrison. Ugh. Jennifer.
• 58:29
  Speaker A: What?
• 58:30
  Speaker B: Harrison played a significant role in the organization of the Trail of Tears. It was a staging point. They were bringing people to Harrison to organize the trips out West.
• 58:41
  Speaker A: No.
• 58:43
  Speaker B: Swear to God. So we go from our hotel room from. We know nothing about Daniel Ross in St. Elmo. We go from our hotel room through the streets of Chattanooga, noting the Trail of Tears. Go eat our tasty, heavenly sandwich, then go to Harrison, of all places. Just like, let's go to Harrison and then end up back at St. Elmo where we find Daniel Ross was like, the first settler. Fuck my. Like, how can this be real life? That really happened to us, Jill.
• 59:14
  Speaker A: I bet that they were. That the soldiers were making the stockades in Harrison. If that's where the holding place was, that's where the soldiers, pre Civil War, would have been, building the stockades to hold them.
• 59:29
  Speaker B: Can you even believe it?
• 59:30
  Speaker A: No.
• 59:31
  Speaker B: And again, your hit. Pre Civil War soldiers. There you go.
• 59:34
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 59:35
  Speaker B: Bodies being buried near or on the trailer.
• 59:38
  Speaker A: I mean, it happened. That happened a lot. That happened. 4,000 didn't make it. That means that there are literally remains all along the trail.
• 59:50
  Speaker B: Oh, God.
• 59:55
  Speaker A: I just got the goosebumps again. Wow. How are we going to end this on a good note?
• 1:00:03
  Speaker B: Well, I think the fact that we were led to this story in such a crazy, roundabout way that day in Chattanooga, where we wanted a local story because it was raining.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker B: Shows the spirit of the Cherokee people are still alive, fighting for their voices to be heard. And that makes me happy.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker A: I like it that they could.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker B: We could take their. The American people can take their land, but they can't take the spirit of the Cherokee Nation. It's still calling out to us.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker A: I love it. And that's really I'm really impressed with the way spirit led us around to all the significant locations without us even knowing it.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker B: I mean, that's what we do, honestly. I know.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker A: But no, no, I know. Every freaking time. Cause you just feel like you're wandering.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker B: We haven't been in the car, like, doing the road trip for a year.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker A: I know. It's been a year.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker B: Yeah. And the reason why I'm bringing that up is because it just felt so good and reminded me that this is really important work and it has nothing to do with Jennifer and Jill's sister time or the podcast. It really has to do that. We are giving voice to these spirits and to. I. I know that, like, I just can't believe this. This day, how it unraveled, like, yeah. How it unfolded from, like, let's go this way. And then we're hungry, so we find a sketchy restaurant. And then you're like, let's go to Harrison.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker A: It wasn't sketchy. It was really good.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker B: It was really good. But it looks sketch af. It was, like, in an industrial park.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker B: And then from there to go to St. Elmo, like, and have, like, who's Daniel Ross? And then to find out that his son, his third child, was, like, fighting to keep this. These events from happening, like, that's insane to me.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker B: Like, for real.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker A: Wow. All right, let's wrap it up. Do you have any community announcements? I have one.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker B: Ah, you go first.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker A: Okay. So our listeners might have noticed that I have been dropping meditations, mini meditations, every. Well, once a month, I guess. And from now on, those mini meditations will be available on Patreon. So they will be on Patreon for tiers three and four, which is more mystics plus and mystical mentorship. Did I say that right?
• 1:02:35
  Speaker B: Yes, I believe you did.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker A: Great. Do you have any announcements?
• 1:02:39
  Speaker B: Yeah, I just want to say, you know, times are hard and times are uncertain, but you guys keep the lights on and you help us grow this podcast. So please, if you have anything to contribute to this mission, please find it in your hearts to participate. If not on Patreon, ongoing, even a one time donation would be really great. We would be eternally grateful.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker A: So thank you. Yes, thank you, Jill. And thank you to all of you out there who have supported us in a lot of different ways, not just monetarily, but your emails mean so much to us. Your comments. If you could share us. If you love listening, please share us with one or two people. So get the word out. We are a very small operation and we don't really have any sort of marketing or publicist. Right. So the more you tell people about us, share us with others, give us a positive review anywhere on any of the platforms I like seeing on Apple. It's just very helpful. It gives us reason to keep going.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker B: And the thing is is that when you say a very small operation, we are Jennifer and Jill and Brian the editor and you guys are helping Brian the editor stay employed with us. Otherwise Jennifer would be dead and this would not happen anymore.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker A: That is 100% accurate.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker B: Also, if you are having issues getting a hold of us to schedule a reading, which has been happening apparently the button on our website common mystics.net is not working, please email us@commonmysticsmail.com you can also hit us up on all our socials Common Mystics pod and you can direct message us with a reading request or a comment or even tell us how we're doing or what we should change. And again, thank you so much for listening for your support. We really really appreciate you. Thank you.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker A: Thank you. Love you.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker B: Love you.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker A: Bye bye.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker B: This has been a Common Mystics Media Production Editing done by Yokai Audio, Kalamazoo, Michigan.