Latest / Psyched For Sanity / Episode 37 - The Adolescent Years: What’s Happening and Why

Transcript

Episode 37 - The Adolescent Years: What’s Happening and Why · Psyched For Sanity

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Psych for Sanity.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: I am one of your hosts, Dr.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Brendel Doss.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a licensed psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, geriatrics, trauma treatment, and child psychology.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I am Dr.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Tara McKelvey Parker.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I am your other host.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: I am also a clinical psychologist, and I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I do.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen it.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: I do, I do, I do.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that I often talk about my four and a half-year-old on this show.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know if I've mentioned my stepkids as much on the show.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you have as much.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know about them.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know about them because you're a longtime friend, but I have um an 18-year-old and a 15-year-old.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh my stepdaughter is 18 and my stepson is 15, and I have had the pleasure of being in their lives since they were one and four.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's a long time.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a long time.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I have, I think, had a decent hand in raising them.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very interesting because four and a half, 15, 18, they're all in the boundary pushing phase like of child development.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Don't even think about that.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like for real.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, gallery.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Identity and boundary pushing, autonomy, independence.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's so fun.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it has actually been really cool to watch my stepkids grow up and through these developmental stages.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: So today we're talking about adolescence.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Adolescence.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna talk about the adolescence.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: The period of time that gives parents the most anxiety and grief, I would say.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's the most confusing.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: For which party?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: The parent or the child?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, maybe both probably that's the right answer.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably why.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're holding your kids' confusion too.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I just think it's very hard to figure out how to balance this need for autonomy and independence with also like keeping them safe.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: And setting appropriate boundaries and maintaining influence when you know when they're literally their developmental mission is to pull away.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Mom, dad, who?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want to go hang out with my friends.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I literally don't care about what you're doing.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I say that, which is hurtful.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like actually.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: So what is the big we've kind of alluded to it, but what is the big each one of these developmental stages has a big uh, I would almost say a battle to be fought.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or like a developmental task to achieve.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's more that's better when you're like a battle to be fought.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Funny, because usually my brain goes there when you're like battlefront.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, sorry, sorry.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where that came from.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think I couldn't figure out a better way to say it fastest.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, battle that's a battle.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: It is a battle.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Identity versus role confusion.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: So this so ages 13 to 18 is all about this push-pull between maintaining connection and gaining independence.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: The main developmental question, if we're continuing on our Ericsson.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, continuing on with our Ericsson model of child development is identity versus role confusion.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Who am I?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of what kind of person do I want to be outside of my parents?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: What do I want to believe in?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: What do I care about?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is this is These are not like questions.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: These are not like questions, right?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So if we can move through this phase appropriately, then we develop like a healthy selfhood, identity, differentiation from our parents, actually.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: While being able to maintain connection to our family.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Which is tricky.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Which is really tricky and hard.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's very hard when our children pull away and don't want anything to do with us.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it feels hurtful.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: It feels hurtful and also it's so appropriate, and also they need you so much.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So although, you know, at this age, kids are wanting a lot of independence, connection with parents is is still really important, but it looks very specific.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought I, you know, so going so going through this stage, like just to recap from last time, because when we ended our last episode, we started talking a little bit about it's tricky because they sort of blur together, which is they're supposed to around 12-ish right is when we start getting out of the last developmental phase into identity versus role confusion.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So some of the stuff we talked about last episode is still very relevant for this age.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So um this is one of the biggest stages of social, emotional, right, and psychological growth.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: For the brain.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: For the brain outside of the first three years of life.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's an interesting point that we've talked about.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a lot of different developmental periods we've discussed and what the brain is doing in the brain's kind of goal.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this is it's interesting to compare it to a huge time of proliferation in the brain, which is you know, zero to three.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting to think about that's another this is another huge stage of brain development.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: I always tell people too, I think this is an important reminder.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Did you know that our brains are not, quote, finished until average 23 to 25?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what's all I remind myself.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even though if you have like an 18-year-old or whatever, they're not done cooking.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're not done cooking, in particular that prefrontal cortex that we've talked about a lot on the show.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: The prefrontal cortex is the part of the brain that is responsible for executive function.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Inhibition control, inhibition control, um, emotion regulation, attention, planning and organization.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So until that prefrontal cortex is fully mature, we're still developing the ability to do these executive functions.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so at this age, the reward and emotion systems in your brain are so active, they're more active than what the prefrontal cortex can support.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So this is why it's developmentally normal and appropriate for teens to be more risky.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because it like is rewarding and feels good.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they are not thinking necessarily about the consequences of doing that.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So boundaries and rules and structure are still so important for this age, even though they're just gonna look really different depending on maturity.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: With every passing year of child development, it gets, I feel like the hard changes.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: That the what is hard changes.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in this age, because they have so much more technical maturity compared to a five-year-old, arguing with a 15-year-old is obviously very different than arguing with a five-year-old.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and so I think it's much more complex because you're getting to more and more where you're where you're when you talk to them, like you are talking to more of an adult.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because so it's confusing.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: It is really confusing.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so at this stage, you are really wanting to promote independence through transferring responsibility.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what that's what the idea would be.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Some parents don't always want that.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really hard.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think to let go of that idea that they have control.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I maintain that we lose control much younger of our children.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's my that's my thing.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that this is when uh really when those those um the guise of control is really tested.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and maybe control's like not really the ideal word.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think or maybe like I don't know, what's a better word?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's not about control.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you can't control another person.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: You can apply consequences and rewards, uh-huh.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: But um you if you can control another person, then they're a puppet.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe just, you know, obviously when kids are younger, you're more of a manager, you have more of a say, like you're still really sort of in charge.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's less risk.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're less in the world at five versus fifteen, or even at eight versus fifteen.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: And as the child child gets older, their worlds are getting bigger.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna have more friends, more social expectations.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: We have we have greater expectations of teenagers than we do younger children.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think that's the it's the widening of the world in combination with them feeling at times like a pseudo-adult that make it partly kind of confusing.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: So at this, at this stage, like, you know, you you may not recognize your kid.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: You you know, they they they start pulling away, you know, spending more time alone.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Friends are their entire world.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: They don't really oh outwardly, they don't care about your influence.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Inwardly, it is still incredibly important what you're doing.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't give in to this little test, this little, you know, teens are often acting as though they don't care about you.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they do, but they are very, very much influenced by their peers overtly.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, lots of mood swings, lots of big feelings, lots of testing identities.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you may just be like, this is not the like, you know, this is not the the Where did my sweet 11-year-old go?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Where did my sweet 10-year-old go?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, why are they wearing so much black?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it should I be concerned that they've switched their entire tastes of music and loathing.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or they have a brand new personality because they're trying on different hats.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're trying on different identities on the body.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Physically or more because emotionally, socially.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: They're trying to figure out who they are and what matters to them.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: So this is really appropriate, but it is really changing, it can be challenging if you don't know that this is appropriate.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: You may start to fear that, you know, this is not okay, or you're losing your kid, or they don't love you, or you know, you're not important to them, but none of that's right.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or that they're abandoning all of your values that you have with your family that you've raised them under.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: When it's really appropriate for them to explore other experiences that might be different from their own families while maintaining your family values and boundaries and rules and expectations within your family system.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really what the crux of this episode is about.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because at this stage, you really need to be moving from making, you know, more choices for your kid or like having, you know, I control again, not really the you're you are transferring responsibility.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's a bit that's that's the word transferring responsibility to promote independence in a way that matches their maturity level.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great point.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think knowing where they are maturity level is much more important than the chronological age.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is actually so important.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: And one of one something that really irritates me.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little box that I have that sometimes I hear from from parents or whatever, like, my kid's not gonna date.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're not they can't date till they're 16.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's it's it's it's annoying to me because I feel like one 16-year-old is not the same as another 16-year-old and another 16-year-old.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, some 16-year-olds are mature enough to date, some aren't.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Some, you know, 14-year-olds are mature enough to date, some aren't.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what does dating even mean to you?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we need to think about this intentionally, and so those blanket sort of like age rules kind of irritate me because it really like transferring responsibility should should really depend on your child's maturity level.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, have they demonstrated that they can actually do this independently?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And make safe, reasonable choices, even in exploration, even in exploration, and are they able to like follow the rules?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are they able to sort of like main, you know, like respect boundaries?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Are they able to, you know, if you're teaching your kids certain values, sure, like are they able to sort of maintain those reasonably because they're values that are important to the family, even if they don't necessarily agree, can they respect it right within the context of this family?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, with with some of these areas, I suppose, that teens are exploring in, like dating, right?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes jobs, jobs, social media, um scary alcohol, substance use, you know, there's like a lot of exploration, exploration.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And all of it's super normative, but um, you know, you should really be thinking in these areas about how mature your kid is, um in in terms of where to start them in terms of rules and expectations.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then as they show that they can they can handle stuff responsibly, then you sort of start allowing more independence and freedom.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that I always when I'm working with this and even the the ages just that we just covered, uh, you know, I think there's this really big tendency as a parent to rescue our children.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: I probably talked about this.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: You talk about this a lot.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is like this is something that seems very important to you.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think I especially with this age, because after 18, legally, there's you have very limited power to help them.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's some things you can still do to help, but you're gonna get fundamentally different responses from the larger world uh for a 15-year-old than you are for a 25-year-old or a 21-year-old.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can't even get access to records like once they turn 18, right?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you're treatment, it's not the same.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to use access.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Educational access, yes.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's so helpful to let them experience failure or the consequences of their actions because I'd much rather have a really challenging experience with a 15-year-old than have my 25-year-old have a challenging experience and be able to be functionally less supportive.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, exploration, allowing for mistakes, and sort of being present and available to help figure out why the mistake was made is really important at this age.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, I do think lots of parents at this age at feel like adolescents need less boundaries because, you know, their whole job is to be like autonomous and independent.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: To be responsible.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: So like, you know, I I know a lot of parents who are just like, you know, I think my teen needs to kind of figure it out on their own.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, they kind of sort of I mean I have a lot of parents that try to do the opposite, I feel like in my practice or historically.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's one or the other.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: More to try to cling more tightly and control more out of out of their fear, which is their fear is understandable and it's just less productive to this developmental stage.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we have one set of parents who tend to like can't let go of the control and one set of parents who can be maybe overly permissive.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think those are like the two natural sort of dividers.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Div yeah, in in terms of what I see in my practice.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and really there's a middle ground.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Boundaries are not the enemy.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Boundaries are really important for this age.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also you have to allow for exploration and mistakes.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so that that's a hard balance, I think, to do.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think like there, especially with some of these grayer areas, like grayer areas.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like, you know, I don't know.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: One one that I consistently discuss, I think, with parents of teens in my practice is alcohol use, like substance abuse.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's really hard.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, kind of like what you were saying about the two types of of parents.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: There are some parents who feel who are just like, you know, alcohol is bad.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like my teen is not gonna drink alcohol.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I am going to do whatever I can to make sure that they are safe and they are not using substances or alcohol.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's like a total sort of, you know, like a like an overprotectiveness potentially.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because understandably There's a lot of danger and risk too.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of danger and risks, of course, and to lots of these grayer areas like social media and dating.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like how do we allow exploration and independence and autonomy while also keeping our kids safe and helping them make good, responsible choices.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's just really tricky.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: The alcohol piece, I hear there's there's those kinds of parents, but actually more often, what I feel like I hear from parents with their teens and alcohol use is it's inevitable, it's appropriate, it's developmentally appropriate.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I would rather my teen drink, okay, you know, and I can like at my house, for instance, I would rather like them be drinking and I'm supervising them than like allowing them to go to parties and maybe getting into a car after they've been drinking.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: This camp of parents just assumes that it's inevitable.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so then they feel like their only choice is to allow the alcohol use, but with like, you know, supervision or whatever.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So they're letting their teens throw parties with alcohol or buying alcohol for them.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is also confusing.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um if if the expectation though is that you don't want your teen to to drink underage.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, yeah, the research is pretty clear about what is helpful.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess I'm surprised that you have that many folks in that camp.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't experience that as much.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have qu maybe it's I don't know if it's like culture-wise, because we practice in different areas in different areas in different areas.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think I have experienced in my practice much more anxiety and fear and hyper control.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then the challenge with that is like you've already alluded to, um, and then when a child does end up consuming alcohol at a party and such, there's a lot of fear.
• 17:59
  unknown: Yes.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then the child doesn't feel like they can reach out to their parent because of the shame and the guilt of the choice they made.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's probably the challenge that comes with that hyper-controlled um environment, is that they've lost that that channel of communication.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they've lost um, you know, I think the the hyper-controlling, really fearful type of parent, like they tend to restrict the exploration and the independence and the freedom, and they don't allow their kids to go out and make mistakes.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: As you were saying before, I know that's like a that's super important to you.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to figure out, we have to ask ourselves around, you know, like, is this development developmentally appropriate?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, what are the risks?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And also like can is there a way to reduce the risk without removing all independence from responsibility?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: There is, and that should be the goal, I feel.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's just really, really tricky and it's scary.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: What would it look like, for example, with alcohol?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, so okay, let's see.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: So with alcohol, so so the research is very clear that when it comes to underage substance use, um, delaying as long as possible is actually the most helpful for your teen emotionally and psychologically, um and reduce the risks, right?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Of um mental health and physical health complications.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: So the research is also pretty clear around substance use that parental monitoring is important, yeah, that open lines of communication is important, um, and also like warmth actually is really important.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if your family values safety and believes the research about underage substance use, um, let's just say in the alcohol example, the expectation would be that your teen does not drink or use any substances underage.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's the family rule, that's the family expectation.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, right.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we would discuss risks with our teen too, about like being honest about reality.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this is all coming from a space of teaching and curiosity and warmth, right?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to like admonish or be punitive or overly strict because teens can understand the nuance, they can understand what are where we're coming from, right?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we wanna we're not like in control, but we are trying to teach.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're discussing the risks openly, and then we're coming up with a game plan for what happens if they are out and they encounter alcohol or substances or they feel uncomfortable.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like what are we gonna do?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: What's the game plan?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And also you can always call me, yeah.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I will always be here to pick you up if you need me, if you do not feel safe and okay.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, that is you're you're you're using your family values, like what you believe in.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: You believe in safety, you believe in honesty, you believe in responsibility, you believe in independence, and you're using those family values to guide what your what the family rules are, what the expectations are, you're discussing risks, but you're also understanding that like your behavior has consequences, and mistakes happen, right?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like there is some truth to that your teen is inevitably going to encounter some kind of substance at a party or at school, or I mean, honestly, just anywhere.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be offers, it's going to be available, it's going to be around.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Your teen might be curious, they might be peer pressured, they might they might drink, you know, they might whatever.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you you hold that understanding because it's somewhat appropriate with.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: your family values and expectations and boundaries.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so if your dean drinks at a party, you know, like they would they would have consequences.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: They would hopefully yeah, they would hopefully call you.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: They would they would, you know, they would act they would enact the plan.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: You would pick them up, you know, and I would first get curious.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is hard to do.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: This is hard to do.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're if you have your a lot of your own feelings swirling when this happens.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would be really upset and I would be really worried and I would be having a lot of feelings.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know and I do think that there is some maybe you should probably wait till the next morning.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm thinking like first bring them home.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah get them into the into the house.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Safe I wouldn't have much discussion actually probably that evening you need to cool off.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: You need to calm down you need to get some sleep you need to uh probably revisit this the next day and get curious open lines of communication and curiosity.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hey tell me what happened what was going through your mind when you you drank or you smoked or whatever you use that vape pen.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: What was going on?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Get information before you respond because that's going to help you figure out the consequences and what your kid might need to make a better choice next time.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because we are approaching the situation in a helpful right we're trying to be helpful and also teach and understand that our kid is like learning the skill right and like flexing this muscle.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway get curious because one team may have drank because they were feeling really anxious and insecure and another teen may have because of some social pressure or whatever.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's so a lot of different reasons.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then third consequences.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Da da da consequences right your behavior matters in this world.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: You did not follow the rules you didn't meet family expectations and I understand why you didn't and that makes a lot of sense to me and also honey you know you you broke the rule.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: There are there are consequences I'm you know I would praise probably them reaching out to you for the ride.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: 100% reinforce that you can totally praise that and if you're not coming at it from a punishing punitive space then this is not them in trouble.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is them making a choice making a choice and learning a lesson that you're trying to teach them actually that they didn't meet expectations it's not appropriate totally understandable why we need to get you some help or we need to explore what's happening for you that this was the best option for you to choose.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: So then we place boundaries and structure back.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: We pull back the independence that we had previously allowed because they've shown they can't handle that level of responsibility.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right but we don't remove it completely.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't say you know like you can never go to a party again and if you drink alcohol ever again then X, you know, we're not coming down super hard.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're saying you know for a while we're going to have we're going to have a much earlier curfew until I can build we can repair trust.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: We can rebuild trust here that you can handle parties responsibly.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely there's going to be more monitoring.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because we are trying to keep them safe and we're trying to build that responsibility muscle and that independence and it takes making mistakes and getting help from parents and pulling back and more structure and boundaries and then allowing it again and then when they show they can do it like giving them a little bit more.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: You had a 10 o'clock curfew hey let's try 11 like you're doing great.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah right later curfew I think you can handle let's see how it goes.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: They can maintain it we we we keep we keep yeah moving things forward.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's so hard to find that nuance like you said and to not be so overreactive or even underreactive.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think always when we come to complex parenting situations like this managing our emotions first has to be the first step before we break go to sleep.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Take a break.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Go to sleep.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Take a break um and then really being thoughtful about and it and trying to be intentional and not just angry.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's very easy to be angry.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: In fact it's it's under and it's understandable because it's understandable because I think we're all angry we're angry because we're scared and because we just want to we just want to raise good humans protect them and feel okay.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and it's it's just it's it's hard.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think you know and that's where these hard experiences if they do occur for your teen hopefully they can really take something away and truly learn.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's that's I think a lot of these things across these developmental things is how can we help our kids learn in a way that promotes the next stage.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and keeps them relatively safe and allowing them to recognize their personal power and that their behavior matters.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and develop their own little unique identities.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah exactly okay well in this area like what are some signs that you might need to seek support for your teen or what are some signs that it's not just a developmental black shirt rebellion.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I get that a lot parents often are like I don't know if this is just like adolescence or if there's a problem.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: So going back to the same questions we've been asking ourselves for every developmental episode is it pervasive?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: So is the issue across the board school friends home right is it persistent?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's occurring a lot.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's not just a couple weeks it's a lot yeah with the isolation this is one that's often like really nuanced and hard like kids do tend to pull away a lot but if they're not interested in doing anything with your family and they're spending all of their time in the room right that could be a little bit more of a sign that something's not okay.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: So and then also is it impairing?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Are they still able to you know attend to their schoolwork?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Are they still able to maintain friendships.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Maintain have they yeah have they have they lost all of their friends or um are they really anxious do they seem super like unnecessarily anxious or depressed like you know there's definitely emotional turmoil but like well I think we haven't talked about this as much but 13, 12 13 is when hormones start kicking in.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh yeah and hormones can really change people's behaviors.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's a big part of this is where is this you know hormonal changes or is my kid just really angry and sad.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where you're talking about that persistence.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah exactly a clear kind of like difference between the two and kind of looking at that difference.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes exactly yes yes yes that's true is one thing that makes all of this yeah hormones well what are you taking away from this developmental phase that we talked about what do you think is um important um I feel this episode was helpful for me in organizing some of my thoughts about parenting teams because certainly some of this stuff has been challenging with my steps for kids for sure.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it was organizing and helpful just for me personally in thinking about my own kids and then also yeah how to help parents in treatment navigate some of this yeah hard balance I think I think this is the the phase that most parents have the most anxiety about or maybe is higher on the anxiety list.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's probably high I would say yeah I'm sure higher on the anxiety list.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I joined them in that so this episode was a battle.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is why you were like it's a battle.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a that's that's probably exactly why I chose that word because I you're bracing a little bit for them absolutely bracing a hundred percent yeah it's hard I feel like that's a normal reaction.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah of course yeah I think so no I feel I do think it's important to like it's a good it was a good reminder that developmentally appropriate they are supposed to separate and things are supposed to be hard and uncomfortable.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah there's supposed to be breaks in the relationship that are not it's not supposed to be the same.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it will always come back around well that's the thing we should do the next episode about adult like like parents and adult children okay because I think this is I try to tell parents a lot like with adolescents this is so normal and I promise you they'll come back around right it's gonna come back around.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: You want to hear what my dad says what does your dad say my dad says that kids turn out really well around 40.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's like all the hard work it like it starts to become obvious and they start to like reconnect with you in their own unique little way.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well obviously he's joking.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes yeah it's not hoping it's like 40 but like older so I'm 42 so that's why that's funny.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah maybe we should do that.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: My sister just turned 40.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Did she anywho let us know in the comments um what developmental period we've covered so far that you know you have the most questions about or you have most concerns what's been hard for you what's been easy we'd love to connect to see an yeah an episode about yeah this podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy diagnosis or any kind of professional mental treatment.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely and we hope that occasionally will make you laugh.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can relate to our quest and our psyched for sanity the content we share is um our personal opinions and insights they are not clinical insights to anyone and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we worked in or have worked for in the past.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: But if listening to this podcast has made you think we'd really encourage you to speak out a mental health professional in your area