Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #19: Is Forgiveness Conditional?

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#19: Is Forgiveness Conditional? · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, Tim Wright here, the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: with our special guest host, John Burgess, or as he has up on the screen, John the Questioner.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: John is filling in for our good friend,
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Terry,
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: who we are still giving her some space to grieve the loss of her husband and
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: appreciate John being with us today.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna look at a question.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a fascinating question because it seems to be based on words that
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is using and asking us to pray.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so the question we're gonna look at is, is forgiveness conditional?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: And probably in two capacities, at least.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is it conditional?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is God's forgiveness of me conditional on my forgiveness of others?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then is forgiveness conditional based on what the person's sin or crime is?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Should we ever withhold forgiveness?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the kind of the two questions we're going to look at today.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: And these are real life questions because every single one of us
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: listening to this podcast,
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: all four of us,
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: we probably have at least one person we're thinking about right now.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: It feels pretty good not to forgive.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: We just kind of like holding that in.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: It gives us a little power.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: It feels kind of good because once I forgive them, I got to let it go.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: But we know it's not healthy for us.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, John, give us the first question.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks, by the way, for filling in again.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry that I, once again, listeners are stuck with a person who is not a full-time entertainer.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: So Terry will be back and the clouds will part.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: The sun will shine down.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be fantastic.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: You just stuck with me as the trusty sidekick for now.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a great question.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to hold this till the very end.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I actually asked Tim this question, I think, 20 years ago, this exact question.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember his response.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think he does.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just going to compare 2024 Tim versus previous, less internet, younger Tim and see what happens.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: So here we go.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: The question is, we visited a church here in SD, I think that's South Dakota, non-denominational.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: They read Matthew 6.12 to say that if you don't forgive others, God will not forgive you.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the question says,
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: being raised by Martin Luther,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think the listener was actually raised by Martin Luther,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: but being raised by Martin Luther,
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: yeah.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've been, according to Martin Luther, I have been saved by grace.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: So this seems odd to me in the New Testament, which is great.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And Matthew 6, 12 is the Lord's prayer, right?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: So when I ask the question, it is forgive us our sins as we have been forgiven.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, forgive us the wrongs we have done.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is the good news version.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Forgive us the wrongs we have done as we forgive the wrongs that others have done to us.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Or as bother me, as bother me.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it does seem conditional.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: We have talked here on this podcast before and John and I and many of our private
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: conversations in our Bible studies about that whole thing of if then because therefore.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is a great place to start just to remind people.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: lot of what we hear in christianity today sadly is if then if you do this then god
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: will do that if you believe this then god will save you if you do this then god
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: will love you if you forgive someone's sins then god will forgive you it's if then
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: and so it becomes all about me it becomes about my work
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And in essence, when you break it down, if then becomes my way of saving myself.
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  SPEAKER_00: If I can do all these things and then God responds, basically I'm the one saving myself.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because therefore is really what the gospel is about.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it starts with because, because there's nothing we can do to save ourselves.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because we are dead in our trespasses and sins,
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus died and rose again for us so that Jesus might give us life.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And as we've said a few times on this podcast, when you're dead, you can't make any decisions.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Dead people can't choose to believe.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Dead people can't choose to forgive.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Dead people get to make no decisions.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So everything is done by Jesus.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: He breathes grace and life into dead people, into us.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And because of that, therefore,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: We can live a life of grace.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: We can, imperfectly, of course, we can forgive and so on and so forth.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So this particular verse comes as somewhat of a shock.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't think that this is an if-then verse.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: If we forgive, then God will forgive us.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's because therefore verse, because God forgives, therefore we can forgive others.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So let me dig down into that a bit and then I'll take a breath and John,
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: you can make up something while I take a breath.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: The very word itself, forgive, suggests it's a gift or give.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't earn a gift.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you do anything to earn a gift, it's not a gift.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: If I do anything to earn forgiveness, I haven't really earned forgiveness.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have paid off a debt.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore, it's not really forgiveness.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just a debt canceled because I worked it off.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: No gift is given.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I have done all the work myself.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's not forgiveness.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: When Jesus is talking about forgiveness,
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: he's talking about it as this gift that comes to us free of charge.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Even though we can't earn it,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: even though we don't deserve it,
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus comes to us with the gift of forgiveness.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that gift sets us free from all kinds of things.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: It can set us free from guilt.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: For some of us, it might set us free from shame.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: from this core belief that I'm not worth anything.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus comes along and says, yes, you are.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so we just let go of that.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: It can forgive us just in terms of setting us free from anything that sort of binds us.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: So forgive means to release.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a bigger word than just sin or things that people have done to us.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's where we tend to hold it.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: But when we forgive someone,
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: so if John,
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: if you've done something to me,
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: that's hurtful and I forgive you,
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: I am releasing you of any claims I hold against you.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I am releasing myself from your ownership of me.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because as long as I hold on to my anger at you, you control me.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're in my head.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: You're in my soul.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's a huge point that's missed by a lot of folks,
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: including me every other Tuesday,
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And all the days in between.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then just the days in between.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm forgiving somebody,
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: this is going to seem trite,
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: but when you forgive someone,
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: you're forgiving them in large part for yourself.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because the psychology behind that and the spirituality behind that is that this
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: stuff that we hold in,
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: this bitterness or anger or whatever it is,
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: after taking some time to feel that in a natural way,
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: really just gives,
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: you said ownership,
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: but it gives some control over this other person.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's not healthy for either one of you.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that person may be long gone.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that person still haunts your soul.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes forgiveness doesn't mean that I say to you, John, I forgive you.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we don't have that opportunity to do that.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we just have to say, all right, God, I'm going to forgive this person now.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to let it go.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Would you please bring healing to me?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then begin to live life.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: The hurt doesn't always go away.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes we may bear scars for that.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: If anybody's ever fallen and skinned their knee,
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a little thing on my knee that from when I was a kid,
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: a little scar.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I can remember the moment that I fell, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't cause me a lot of pain, but it's there to remind me of that moment.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: But when you forgive, you sort of make the decision, I'm going to let go of the pain.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to let go of the hurt.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to let it control my life anymore.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to move on.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a decision that I can make,
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: in part at least,
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: because Jesus forgives me and gives me the power to do that.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think what Jesus is saying here,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think Jesus is saying a few things here.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think one way of saying it,
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: it would be forgive us our trespasses so that we can forgive those who trespass
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: against us.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And or forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because Jesus knows that as long as I harbor unforgiveness in my heart,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: it's going to be really difficult for me to experience the forgiveness that Jesus
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: gives to me.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I close myself off.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm bitter, when I'm angry and I'm holding on to something, it closes me off.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean that God stops loving me.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean that that love's not there.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I may not experience it in its fullness because I've closed it off by building
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: a wall of defensiveness,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: anger,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: unforgiveness.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I got good news for you.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Younger Tim that still loves Barry Manilow but wasn't quite as internet savvy as today,
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: that's almost exactly what you said.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: You said maybe what he's saying is, this is my memory and then you can tell me a little bit more.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: He said maybe what he's saying is,
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just not open to understanding the depth to begin to understand the depth of
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: the forgiveness that Jesus is providing me.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm wholly unable to forgive those around me.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we all know that we all know people who are bitter,
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: who have been deeply wounded and have nursed that wound and have held onto it and
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: they can't let life in.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so think of it,
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've used this illustration for a lot of different things,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: but we've both been to Israel.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: We have both had a chance to float in the Dead Sea.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the Dead Sea is the end of the Jordan River.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the Jordan River empties into the Dead Sea.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: It has no outlet.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so the Dead Sea is literally dead.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: The salt content is so high that you can float without trying.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: You can walk out and once you're deep enough, your body is just floating.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because there's no outlet.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so it sort of dies off.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the same is true with us.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: If we are not a conduit of God's forgiveness and then that flows through us to others,
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: we just become this dead sea.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of die in our souls forever.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: We become spiritually constipated, right?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so we need an outlet.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so forgiveness is one of those outlets when we just let it go.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not easy to do.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've often recommended a book by Lewis Smedes, and I'll put it in the show notes on Substack.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Forgive and Forget.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the book's a bit dated now.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: But his model for forgiveness still holds.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And he kind of used the model that people go through for grief at various stages.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't remember off the top of my head.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'll put it in the notes.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I know the first one is we hurt.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then we sort of have to live with it for a while.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then we begin to let it go.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally we heal.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'll put that on the notes,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: but forgiveness doesn't necessarily come by just saying magically you're forgiven.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: You got to work through it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we can forgive somebody and then the hurt comes back and that's okay.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean we haven't forgiven.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a reminder that we were hurt at one point,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: but then we have to do a little bit of work of,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: why did that bother me again?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I let go of that?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: But that's really what forgiveness is about.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a healing gift.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so forgive us our sins so that we can be a conduit of that grace and
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: forgiveness to others that life might continue to flow through us and energize us.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, we just live in bitterness and we miss out on the grace.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I'm going to say this, but I'm watching out for lightning bolts to hit me any second now.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: So wouldn't it just be easier to say that,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: what you said,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: instead of saying it the complicated way that requires lots of interpretation?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: because it's been a while since I've looked at the Greek language,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: but maybe it says it there a little bit better.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also a part of the deal with Scripture itself.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: that we always have to be careful of taking one verse and building a whole theology around it.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to take these other verses as well,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: and the whole of Scripture,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: especially the whole of the Jesus story,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: and then interpret through that lens.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because as we've seen when we talked about hell,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: you can take one verse,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: and it sounds like people don't believe in Jesus,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: they're all destined to eternal gnashing of teeth.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: But if you start to look at the whole of the gospel,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: then you can say,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: wait a minute,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: there might be an actually a better and different way to look at things.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that's true of forgiveness.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: We love because God first loved us.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: We forgive because Jesus first forgave us.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's always because therefore.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if we keep because therefore, because therefore, it becomes a great interpretive tool for us.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: When we feel like we start getting caught up in this dance of I need to do this or
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: I need to manage my sin,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: sin management.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: because,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: because,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: because God loves me,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: because God loves me,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: because Jesus died for me.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And on the other hand,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: it's also so much easier in the society that we live in to just understand that if
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I do X,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: then Y is going to happen.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's the world we sort of live in.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: and this email I just got that said,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: if you will do this 20-minute survey for us,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: we will give you a free $10 gift card to Amazon.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not a gift.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, that's right.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: But it's way easier for me to understand.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, how many days of Sunday school do I need to teach when I know for sure that I'm in?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that kind of transactional approach to life is so much easier to understand in many ways.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: than this free gift that I, the depths of which I can't even understand.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of that karma, right?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: You do bad things, bad things happen.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: You do good things, good things happen.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And of course the Bible, the Bible sort of says, oh, it's not always the case.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: as Bono from U2 says, grace breaks into that, number one, and changes that whole storyline.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: But we see in the book of Job, for example, here's a good guy and bad things happen to him.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: So life doesn't always work even with if-then, even though we'd like to think it does.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: But you're right, it does make a lot more sense.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: If I work hard, then I should make good money.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people work hard.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, a lot of people work very, very hard and don't make a lot of money at all.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Some people hardly work at all, and they're multi, multi-billionaires.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't always work, but it does make rational sense.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why the gospel, it goes beyond our reason.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's uber reason.
• 17:43
  Yeah.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: for lack of a better word.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So for the regular guy like me who has not spent the years studying the Bible that you are studying,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think what catches me sometimes is I see the word as,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: and clearly it looks like if I do this,
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: then this happens.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course, we just want to know how to stay out of hell, right?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: So then it's like, well, okay, so if I don't do that, then bad things will happen.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what you've challenged us to do,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: what you challenged me to do over and over is to remember that God invites critical thinking.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: He invites study.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when you trip on a,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Verse that seems to be in conflict with the nature of God as you've studied it in
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: other verses that requires you to dive in a bit.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is that fair?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Fair.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I the the blog post.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: that I'm sending out on Reckless Grace that's coming out right before this podcast.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: So people who read that will recognize this quote.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I did a little writing for a book I'm working on,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: and basically the post was on being curious and how doubt that a curious faith will
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: take us much further than an unquestioningly certain faith.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because once the cracks start with an unquestioning certain faith, the whole foundation implodes.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're curious,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: those cracks,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't say it quite this way,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: but those cracks become stepping stones to some new insight into who God is.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so curiosity is always the better foundation to live on than certainty.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there are certain things that I'm certain about.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: God loves you.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of really understanding the depths of gospel, the journey of faith is not one of certainty.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of curiosity.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So with that, John, let's move to the second question because that helps us tease out in real life.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And this is another question from one of our listeners.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you got it.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Next question is, what do you think of all this, quote, cancel culture stuff?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: where people,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: especially celebrities,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: may have said or done something years ago,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: often not remembering that it was said,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: and they lose everything from careers to friends,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: It happens in the real world now more than ever.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Where does grace come into play?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And where do we draw the line on what's inexcusable and what's not?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Grace is the ultimate cancel culture.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: because it cancels out all the wrongs that we have done and gives us a fresh start.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a because therefore thing.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Cancel culture is if then.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Cancel culture is if you've made this mistake, then you're gonna live with it for the rest of your life.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Grace says, if you've made this mistake, Jesus is taking care of it and let's do something new.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really unfortunate
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: that someone who said something when they were young and ignorant,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: and I got plenty of stuff that I said back in the day that if it was unearthed today,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: I would just cringe.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then not to be forgiven for that is ridiculous.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're human beings and we grow.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And some of us may have been raised, let's take a racist comment, for example.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably a bad example because I'm a white guy.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: But if you were raised in a racist home, that's all you ever heard.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then publicly,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: when you're still young,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: you say something that's really inappropriate,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: but you don't really understand why that is.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then 30 years later, someone says, do you know that he said such and such?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a great opportunity for everybody just to sit down and say,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: why was this inappropriate?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: What have you learned since that time?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And let's move on.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: But to hold some things against a person for a lifetime,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: that's just punishing unforgiveness rather than grace.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I recognize that there are some things that people have done in their lives that
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: that should disqualify them from certain things for the sake of other people.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we can all think of horrific things that people do to others.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: We have laws in place for that.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: We have things in place for that.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: But when we're talking about statements people make that are either stupid or
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: really just outright horrifying,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: But it was years ago and that they're not like that at all anymore.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And they really have changed.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: we ought to,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: as a society should say,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: we we've all said dumb things and let's cancel that by saying you're forgiven.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to give you a second chance.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: does it important to me,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: since we just talked about forgiveness,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: is it important to you that they say,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know what?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: That was really stupid.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't ascribe to those beliefs anymore.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I now see a different way to live.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Is that important?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really healthy for the person who had those beliefs to be able to articulate and say that.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's healthy for them because they own what they said and they can own their own journey.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's healthy for those who maybe are hurt by such comments to hear.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: But again...
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: that's a really good question in terms of real life situations, right?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they aren't, but those are two different things.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: If they're not showing any remorse at all,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: and they're just sort of saying,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: tough,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: that was whatever.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then you kind of say they haven't really grown up yet.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And at the very least, I'm going to be really cautious of this person.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Just because you forgive someone doesn't mean you let them keep doing it to you.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, that's a big point, right?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to ask you that.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So can you say that again, but with more words?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, sure.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Let's a bad situation where you've got a wife who's being abused by a husband.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: There are some Christian denominations that would say you need to stay there.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you just need to forgive and you need to submit.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely wrong.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: unscriptural, and it's just Looney Tunes.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now that abused wife needs to get out of that situation.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: That abused wife needs to get safe.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: That abused wife needs to get divorced for her sake.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if they have kids for the sake of the kids,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: at some point,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: she's going to have to forgive her abusive husband,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: not to say that what he did wasn't bad,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: but to let go of the pain and the hurt,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: to not allow him to control her anymore.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: she can still hold him accountable she can still say that that was wrong she can
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: still say he is a horrible person but at some point she's going to have to let go
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: of her own hurt and anger so that he can't control her anymore and that doesn't
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: excuse his behavior forgiveness doesn't always excuse the behavior it is my
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: decision to say i'm not going to let you control me anymore
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are some things that when we forgive them, we're not saying, oh, yeah, it's OK.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a big deal.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: It is a big deal.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: But forgiveness is greater than that.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not going to let you control my life anymore.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: there are certain things that,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I may forgive you,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: John,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm not going to let you keep doing that same thing to me.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: I may have to just walk away from the relationship.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Just say, look, I can't.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be like that.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to live like that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to allow you to do that.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: So scripture is not requiring me to be a doormat.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: The greatest active power we have is forgiveness.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the power to let go,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: to not let someone control me,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: and then to walk away if I need to walk away.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of applies to this cancel culture question as well, right?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit it does.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on the situation, of course.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is situational.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: To the writer's question, if it's something they said, and we've seen stories about that many times.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I said something stupid.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Should they be canceled like that for the rest of their lives?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Only if they continue with that same rhetoric, right?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Then we just say, look, you have no voice because what you say is outrageous.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: But if it was years ago and they're not saying those things anymore,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: give someone a second chance.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: If their behavior or their language is constantly hurtful,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: horrific outside of societal norms although who knows what societal norms are
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: anymore um that's the next podcast right you just we have no obligation to let that
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: person back into our life yeah and if you want to use the word cancel at that point
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: and just say i'm canceling that person from any influence on my life i get that and
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: i understand that just so long as we're able to say my anger at that person isn't
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: going to control my life anymore i'm just not going to give you the time of day
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And now,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: and at the same time,
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: each layer,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: but at the same time,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: if it's really horrific stuff,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: there may be some,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: we may have to be actively engaged in canceling that person's bad habits and bad
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: words to be able to get online and say,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: this person continues to say blah,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: blah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And as a Christian person,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: That is not acceptable.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I will not watch that person show anymore or whatever.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And here's why.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not going to let my anger at that person control me.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the difference.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we just live in this culture of such grievance and anger anyway fueled by social media.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's sort of hard for us right now
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: To figure out what some of those differences are.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're just angry at everything.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this is being generated.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: We know this by social media.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: All the logarithms are created to make you outraged.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: The more outraged you are, the more you'll read it.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's no nuance anymore.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's no nuance between a sentence a teenager said that came out again when they
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: were 50 and they have been very different.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: or behaviors that are ongoing and words that are ongoing that have no place in society.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: we're constantly being coached that the person we don't agree with is not just
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: someone we don't agree with,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: but they are evil.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: We were supposed to demonize them.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: and that is,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: part of that I think is feeding into this fervor that we get from,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: from social media or other places,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: but it's just so hard to be,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: on any topic where I feel like left,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to use left turn and right turn.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say option A and option B. And I think option A is kind of the right way to go.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: But now I'm exposing myself to just be vilified by the option B people.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm supposed to be demonizing the option B people.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: there are some people that we should demonize might not be the right word,
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: but certainly call out racists,
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: pedophiles,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: We know.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: But to see,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm a progressive Christian and I see evangelical Christians as my enemies
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: because we differ theologically,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: that's just ridiculous.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: But then again, if I do see them as my enemies, what does Jesus tell me to do?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: He tells me to love them.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't even know how to disagree anymore on issues that need good discussion.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: We just sort of have our bubble we live in, and we're just angry at everybody not in our bubble.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that takes us back to curiosity.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm not curious,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: I may in the end not agree with,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: let's use politics,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: I may not agree with this person or that person,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: but I should at least be curious about what they're saying so that I can make
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: better decisions myself.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I may come to the conclusion that they're absolutely nuts.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I better listen first before I say that.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: some politicians make it pretty easy for us to just write them off as nuts because
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: they're just nuts.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: But there are some politicians on both sides of the aisle who are very thoughtful
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: in their political stances,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: and we should listen to them.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Unless I'm supposed to disagree, then I wholeheartedly disagree.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm pretty sure I agree.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: But then I'm your enemy and you love me anyway.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'm trying to.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think...
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: If we're living in constant anger, we need to do a self-assessment.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And first of all, get off of social media.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Stop watching that one same cable news channel, whatever it is.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Get out of your bubble and take a breath.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Go for a walk.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Get outside.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just detangle yourself from those things that are making you angry.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're called to be more loving.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if what you're participating in,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: what you're watching doesn't make you more loving,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: it just makes you angry,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: then it's time for a reassessment of where your mind is going.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: I remember watching, this is probably 10 years ago, but watching 60 Minutes.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think it's just a great show.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: But then I noticed that I was outraged at everything that they talked about the entire time.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it would bother me for a couple of days.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's like the amateur hour of the stuff that's outraging us today, right?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: No one's looking at 60 Minutes like, wow, what a crazy show that is.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now we've got whole new levels of crazy.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: And again, there's so many layers.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: There are things that Christians should be angry about.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: We should be angry at injustice.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: We should be angry at poverty.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: We should be angry at inequities and systems that keep people from living just a
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: normal life where they can have their basic needs met.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: We should be angry at those things.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the things that God is angry at.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: But that's a different kind of anger.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's an active anger that seeks to change it.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And anger that just sits and stews at something and is just angry to be angry, that helps nobody.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it helps the medical profession because they're probably treating ulcers like never before.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that brings us back to forgiveness.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Forgiveness is the ultimate ulcer cure to forgive and to live in grace.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then where does that grace want me to make a difference in the world?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: So-
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: All right, John, that's a lot of stuff.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was fantastic.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Tune in next time when we handle what?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sex, politics, religion, all the hot topics.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll tell you who to vote for for the president coming up.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, is there an election coming up?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't noticed.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that'll take our audience from four down to two.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because my wife would no longer listen to that.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Probably my wife too.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: So now it's just the two of us.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, and Terry, Terry listens.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: All right, John.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everybody.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Remember to pray for Terry and we will be back with you again.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the deep grace diving podcast.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tim Wright, along with John D Burgess, and we'll be back with you again next week.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Bye for now.