Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 238. Navigating SNAP Rule 26 and New Refrigeration Regulations with Dave Tomicki and Don Elliott of Hussmann

Transcript

Episode 238. Navigating SNAP Rule 26 and New Refrigeration Regulations with Dave Tomicki and Don Elliott of Hussmann · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: Welcome to the Refrigeration Mentor podcast. Super excited that you guys are here, that you're listening. Hopefully you're growing a little bit, learning a little bit and getting involved in the conversations today. I have some good friends of mine from Hussman. One of my buddies, Don Elliott. We've been talking and chatting for years.
• 0:01
  He's, uh, Expert trainer in the industry. He's a technician development leader for Hussman. We've been having great conversation for years. He's trained thousands and thousands of people. And we have Dave Tomicki. He's a system specialist for Hussman. And so really what's that is he's taking care of business.
• 0:02
  He's training contractors, end users. He's been involved in it all. He's been in it decades and now he's really trying to help educate the industry. Uh, on what we're going to talk about today, the transitions that are happening that are coming very rapidly for contractors, for end users, and for manufacturers.
• 0:03
  We're going to be diving into these new rulings for R290, where there are increased limits in the charge, which is amazing. But the thing is, is that we still need to understand the education side, the training side, how this is going to affect you as a technician and contractor, as well as how's it going to affect you as an end user, the benefits, the cons, we're going to be diving into that.
• 0:04
  Dave Dawn, welcome to the refrigeration mentor podcast. How are you guys doing?
• 0:05
  Dave: Awesome. Thank you, Trevor.
• 0:06
  Trevor: Dave, why don't you do a brief introduction of yourself and your role?
• 0:07
  Dave: Yeah, well, I'm the refrigeration system specialist. We've got a few of us on hand here and when we do, uh, Throughout the company is we, uh, pretty much stay ahead of the curve of what's going on in the industry and work with our entire organization and the sales side all the way to the, uh, field and equipment side, all the way to the throughout the engineering phase and design phase to really stay ahead of the curve of what's going on in the industry.
• 0:08
  So we can make sure that husband's in the right direction. And we work with. Uh, the customers, clients, anybody that we interact with. To really give them the guidance of the various. Technologies being developed in the industry, not just with Husband, but across the board and globally, and, uh, help them understand it so they can make some informed decisions.
• 0:09
  Trevor: Yeah, that's so, that's such an important role. And what, what I really like about that you're involved in so much, you know what I mean, from all sides of the business and the industry, and that's where you can help customers from whatever angle, uh, and I love that. Don, can you want to do a quick introduction to yourself?
• 0:10
  Don: Sure. Thank you, Trevor. My name is Don Elliott, and, uh, I am the technician development leader for Hussman, and my role is a little bit different. I focus more on the in house technicians, our install teams, and our, uh, service teams. And, uh, we also have a, uh, Tech X school down in, uh, uh, And so I helped manage that curriculum and come up with different training programs for them as well.
• 0:11
  So just basically anything training, whether it's new, old, uh, for our service teams and install teams.
• 0:12
  Trevor: And that's a key role. You guys have a very big company, well over a thousand. Thousand technicians and development is so important. And I know, I know we've known each other for years now and how passionate you are and helping the new technicians as well as the people in the field.
• 0:13
  I love everything that you're doing down there, Don. So let's, let's dive into it. So what is all about this new rule, the snap, uh, 26 rule? And I'll start with you, Dave.
• 0:14
  Dave: Yeah. Well, uh, if you just historically, if you look at what the, uh, EPA and the industry and specifically for the United States, we're talking about here.
• 0:15
  Um, For years, they're, they're doing everything they can to improve the environment. And, uh, uh, and what the EPA has been doing, uh, probably since, uh, the early 80s, late 80s, as, uh, really looking at the impact, right, of various refrigerants that have been used in the industry. Um, and, uh, I mean, if you go back as far as the late 80s, when R12 and, um, 502 were that got phased out and You know, so on and so forth.
• 0:16
  Now, here we are in 2024. We're not just the EPA, but various states are more aggressive than what the APA is doing for the SNAP Rule 26. The general overview is nothing more than, um, making sure that the refrigerants that are used are less and less impactful to the environment. So the GWP, which is global warming potential, um, is, is a, um, a measurement that the EPA has established that.
• 0:17
  As you understand the impact, uh, and the toxicity of the, uh, these refrigerants to the atmosphere. As an example, uh, you know, you have four R 4 48 A and 4 49, which have been used now for years. They're getting phased out over time. Um, and we'll go through that. But those, those represent somewhere in like the 1300 or 1250 range, uh, for the GWP rating.
• 0:18
  But now when you look at this new rule. That, uh, that, uh, that 1350, 1250 GWP rating. Now we're well below that. We're, um, starting, uh, the next few years, you're going to see Uh, that these ratings have got to be well below anything you use right now, moving forward in 25, 26, 27, have got to be well below that 300 or 150 GWP rating.
• 0:19
  So it really changes the whole design of everything. You can't use a lot of these refrigerants that were used in the past, and now you're very much limited to things like, uh, CO2, propane, um, antifreeze or glycol. Water as a refrigerant if you want to yeah, so
• 0:20
  Trevor: and I totally understand just remember that this is for the the u.
• 0:21
  s At this point different Europe's gonna be a bit different. Australia's gonna be a different even here in Canada We don't have that that I know of we don't have those rules in place yet So it's usually that we follow along on what goes on in, uh, in the U S because right now we're still, I believe in the self contained days, we can still use, I think up to, I think, 13 or 1400 GWP.
• 0:22
  So that four, four, eight, four for nine still can be used, but I believe that will change as well. So you've got to understand where you're at to understand your rules and regulation. And I think this is key for, for technicians as well as end users to understand, because now. It's going to change in some of the tools they may have, which we'll get into.
• 0:23
  It's going to change in the products that they were purchasing before to new products that they got to purchase. They, and we'll dive into that. What are your thoughts, Don, on these new rulings and how's that going to affect training for you?
• 0:24
  Don: Well, you know, really the rules are, uh, uh, going to affect us, you know, uh, substantially.
• 0:25
  And I think really the big issue is, is the fear of like R290. Uh, a lot of the veterans really shy away from it. They, you know, they know it's flammable. And I think at the end of the day, they just aren't comfortable with it. I think that's what we're trying to, that challenge is getting comfortable with it.
• 0:26
  The new rules. It's dx refrigeration, right? So it's, you know, it's a great refrigerant. It's just about how you handle it and just teaching in the proper way of being safe, making sure they're ventilating, make sure they're using the meter, the gas meter that they need to detect it and flow nitrogen when they break into the system, doing a seal system repair.
• 0:27
  And then also don't forget, you know, they got to make sure they're using spark proof, uh, uh, components, right. On the electrical side, make sure they're not going out and just buying something out of a supply house that makes sure it's probably going to have to be OEM.
• 0:28
  Trevor: And this is not new though. You guys did the micro DS system year, like a decade ago, you had propane systems out.
• 0:29
  It's not, it's not like it's new. It's just now. It's more prevalent and it's going to, it's a, it's a regulations coming in. So you're going to see tons of more equipment like that. And it's important that you start understanding because now you've got to train not only the way it was done, but the new way of the new reference.
• 0:30
  So now there's more, there's more training that needs to be done. Cause you've got to train on the old stuff. Cause there's millions of pieces of equipment. Now, all the new equipment that is different is going to be trained on that. Dave, I'd love to ask you, how does this affect end users now? Cause that's what you, you deal with a lot, a lot of the end user.
• 0:31
  What's the benefits for this for the end years? And maybe what are some of the disadvantages for end users?
• 0:32
  Dave: Well, two things. I mean, if you look at the larger players out there, a lot of them have, um, mission statements and guidelines that they want, that they need to adhere to because they want to be, you know, uh, net zero neutral and they want, but they are good stewards of the environment.
• 0:33
  So what we're doing with the, uh, with anybody that's been listening to past year or so, we've been doing a lot of training from everyone from the very, very large companies in the U S market, all the way down to the smaller players, because everybody has to adhere to this. But the, um, I would say that the, the larger players out there, they've been, um, they've been a little more aggressive and, uh, We're coming and being adapting to this new technology because they just know that it's going to be coming and they want to prepare for it.
• 0:34
  So they want to make sure that to Don's point that that their service personnel are familiar with, whether it be trench, critical CO2 or propane or the new technologies out there that they're not going to get blindsided when all of a sudden, The next year or two, when this new, when you're forced to go only in this direction that they're easing into, and they're going to transition into the new technology.
• 0:35
  So, um, I would say that the bigger players are ready for it and they understand what's going to happen. They're trying to adapt to it and understand the cost behind it, but it's, it's the, it's the other 90 percent of the industry, the small mountain tops out there, um, the smaller chains that they're, they're, um, They're a little flat footed and a lot of them are just don't realize the impact this is going to have of not only what they're going to be doing with the new systems, but their existing systems.
• 0:36
  Um, and that's the other thing, like the Dan's, uh, Don's point is that our concern is that the, um, The new and upcoming service personnel, they're going to have to know both the old equipment and the new equipment. Some of the, you know, you get to some of the older guys that are out there. They're just the conf point.
• 0:37
  They're just, uh, they're happy with what they're doing. They don't really want to learn any new things and they're kind of just going to feather off into the sunset. So, um, there's, we really are doing everything we can like with a tech X and uh, all this training we've been doing across the country to, uh, Minimize the impact of, um, the big gap in knowledge base of the new technology.
• 0:38
  That's what we're trying to do, um, globally, uh, with, uh, with everybody from the service personnel, all the way to the end user.
• 0:39
  Trevor: Yeah. And I think that's important. It's not only the technician that needs to learn about what's going on. The end user needs to learn about what's going on because this is, this is an industry thing.
• 0:40
  It's affecting everyone manufacturing. And it starts with you guys, cause I used to work for a manufacturer and it's Years and years ahead because it's not like the man you got we didn't know about this happening I remember in 2014 when I started to learn about regulations and river that I never ever thought about when I worked for a contractor but now it's like it's getting closer and closer to these timelines where Change is happening and it doesn't matter if you you like it or not It's gonna it's gonna evolve because you guys are changing the equipment The wholesaler is going to have to stock different parts and components for the technician and we as a technician in the field We need to understand that those parts that we're going to be buying In your training programs don how are you implementing these new like we're talking about snap 26 I know you've been training propane for years and years But how are you implementing this to make sure those technicians are safe?
• 0:41
  You When they come across this, um, these components,
• 0:42
  Don: well, you know, I think, uh, again, what we're, our biggest, uh, concern is, is now that the grams have increased, right? So now you're looking at 494 grams, you know, that's over a little over a pound of refrigerant. Okay. So, and that's, uh, uh, you know, a flammable refrigerant.
• 0:43
  So I think, again, we just have to make sure our technicians understand. Uh, you know, the safety piece of it and the proper procedures, you know, when you're going in and doing a sealed system repair to make sure that they are taking the time to, you know, placard the area, ventilate the area, make sure that, uh, you know, if you could do this work, uh, outdoors, I mean, you know, we're, we're pushing anything we can to get them to, you know, stay away from, from the public when they're in the retail, uh, customers.
• 0:44
  One of the things that I think we, we really try to push to is, You know, is bad habits, right? I mean, back in the day when we're using synthetics, you know, you left the shredders on if you're accessing a self contained unit, right? You leave the shredder valves on. No problem. Well, you know, with this compound, you know, we, we can't do that.
• 0:45
  And I think teaching our technicians the process of taking, you know, getting the system charged up and then removing the shredder valve. So those asset access points. And so this means that you're going to be raising on a system that's live with refrigerant, uh, you know, Uh, explosive refrigerant on the other side, right?
• 0:46
  Flammable refrigerant on the side. So I think that's the piece that gets them, you know, get them trained. And I think that's what they're concerned about the most. So we really, to take a long, you know, a time, a step back to really try to make sure that they understand how to do this properly and how to do it safely.
• 0:47
  And so we can get the best end result.
• 0:48
  Trevor: So, yeah, one of the big things I've done tons of propane training, low nitrogen through, you know what I mean? Make sure you do a deep evacuation, just like you say. Learn how to properly pinch off the lines and you can go there's lots of husband videos I'm sure out there and other videos that you can see how you get the proper you need the proper tool you proper pinch And then you can braise while that system is it has refrigerant in it because I never knew I worked on commercial Refrigeration supermarket all the time and when I went and worked on a self contained i'm like, how do I do this?
• 0:49
  But after you do it once or twice and you learn properly it makes it a lot easier So we're talking about our 290 and that's I think that's where most of the manufacturers like yourself are making their way Into this new snap 26, but it's not only our two 90. I bet I, when I look through it, it shows these a two L refrigerants and some, some people call them mildly flammable, but it's a lower flammability.
• 0:50
  Uh, rate, what are your thoughts on that for end users that are going to say, listen, well, we're going to go with maybe like four or four 54 C or one, two, three, four YF, whatever, Dave, what are your thoughts on that? Cause I know most manufacturers I talked to, they're going to go are two 90 with this increase, cause it really.
• 0:51
  Once again, R two 90 is way more efficient than all those other ones. You know what I mean? They've got very good heat transfer capabilities. Similar running to R 22, uh, back in the day. What are your thoughts on that?
• 0:52
  Dave: Well, I'll, I'll say this, uh, you know, we're, we're, we're preparing our portfolio as an example, I'm sure others are as well, to have a variety of options out there.
• 0:53
  So whether it be propane like I said, or that we just spoke about, or the, uh, various a two Ls that are up and coming all the way to co2. But when it comes to a twos. Um, there is still an infancy. I mean, UL is still, we've worked with them so, so directly. Uh, to make sure that and the goalposts are moving, um, you know, and they're trying to figure things out as far as, uh, you know, the guidelines of it.
• 0:54
  I mean, it's interesting that you can have, you know, hundreds of propane tanks in a building, you know, they're selling, you know, propane for grills and stuff. And yet now you got a little pipe that's got some propane and people are losing their heads and it's like, that's interesting. So I think, I think the UL, um, uh, Uh, organization is learning and we're trying to adapt with that, but well, on the end user side, it is a very attractive option, right?
• 0:55
  Because it's very, it's once you overcome that fear of using a two L's, um, and some of the guidelines, leak detection and leak mitigation, um, it runs like a regular HFC, right? So there's a comfort level on the service side of the technicians out there that it's okay. Once I figure things out and how to handle it.
• 0:56
  How to operate and how to, um, you know, leak mitigation and things like that. Um, it's pretty attractive. Um, again, it's in its infancy. So the next couple of years, we'll see how that adapts compared to like, you know, propane as an example with the higher fundability rate or, you know, the higher pressures of transcritical co two.
• 0:57
  Um, that's why I think in some applications you might start seeing in the adaptation of a two elves for the service side and user.
• 0:58
  Trevor: Well, what are your thoughts though? You know, I hear mildly flammable, lower flammability rates, but what are your thoughts if we, there wasn't a lot of people saying that, you know, putting fear factors in, I've seen this with CO2, fear factors with R290.
• 0:59
  R290 has been worked on since the 80s. You know, in industrial plants, we're using our two 90 as a refrigerant since the eighties. Do you think there's a fear factor that's put in place? Because now like people are, Oh, I'm okay with using our four 54 C for an example is an a two L or whatever the refrigerant is, or are a 32, which is a flammable, which has been used for decades in the, uh, the, uh, VRF world.
• 1:00
  What are your thoughts on that? Is there, you think there's a bigger fear factor? In that, and we'll start with you, Don. Do you think there's a bigger fear factor when people talk about R290 versus an A2L?
• 1:01
  Don: Oh, definitely. I think sometimes they, they both get, uh, put in the same category, right. And, and at the end of the day, you know, that's why they call it A2L, right.
• 1:02
  Versus, you know, the A3. So I think that if you look at, uh, look at that, I think we sometimes fear takes over, but. I think once we get more of this, the A2Ls out there, um, I think the comfort factor is gonna be, uh, a lot better on the service side of things. Um, you know, right now, you know, Husband is looking at, uh, one of their lines, the Freedom line, that right now, um, they're using 448, but they're gonna go to an A2L.
• 1:03
  And I think, uh, you know, I think that will help, we get that. You know, get these products on the market with the a two L's. I think the comfort level is going to start, uh, getting, uh, much better. And you know what depends on, you know, the, the fire, uh, you know, the, the building codes to Trevor. I think we have to look at some of that, you know, these are refrigerants that a lot of our, uh, communities, they're not used to, right.
• 1:04
  This is all new to them. So I think that fear factor is going to be something that has to just be settled down, my opinion.
• 1:05
  Trevor: Well, I think though, like in my, in most houses now they're using. Some sort of butane or 600 refrigerant. So it's just, I think, you know, there's no code on the fridge that gets put in my house.
• 1:06
  So we're going to see a lot to change, but a lot of people don't know. An A2L is not just a drop. You can't just go drop it into your 448 or 449. This is another whole system. So end users got to understand that even if they go whatever direction they go, it's going to be new equipment. It's going to be new components.
• 1:07
  Um, then what, what we're used to, Dave, what are your thoughts on that?
• 1:08
  Dave: Well, I mean, the best way to overcome fear is what we've been trying to do, um, in the past, specifically the past year or two when it comes to the new technologies that are out there is, is education, right? Um, Yeah, the fear of, uh, whether it be the fear of, uh, a propane case exploding, you know, and killing hundreds of people in the store to the higher pressures of, uh, of a transcritical CO2 four times that of a normal HFC unit.
• 1:09
  I mean, it's just, it's just about, um, education and, um, and a little ignorance, but, uh, that, that's, that's just gonna, that's that, that I think we'll just, uh, to Don's point as the, um, like any new technology gets out there, they become more familiar with it, uh, understand it. Uh, get the proper training to work with it.
• 1:10
  And when we, when we do give, uh, as far as any sort of recommendation or guidance to our end users is regardless of the technology, when a service tech or service company claims that they're, um, they've got, they know how to install propane, or they want, they know how to install transcriptable CO2, do due diligence, better understand, make sure it's not just that one guy in that company that did one store.
• 1:11
  Um, Because what we're doing as an OEM, you know, we're trying to do everything we can to support the system integration, the startup and the design, but, um, it all comes down to the guy piping it and starting it up and knowing what he's doing. So, um, you know, it's got an efficient, um, and good operating piece of equipment at the end of the day.
• 1:12
  Trevor: Yeah. One of the big things is, is that I, I hear like a CO2 back in 2014, there's the high pressures, you got to worry about this. But I've. Talk with so many contractors from around the world. There was one. I did a podcast earlier this week I've been doing co2 for 12 years now. They only do co2 now They got 15 or 2000 stores supermarket stores.
• 1:13
  They never had one lost time injury from co2 I talked with another contractor who all they do is work on self contained propane equipment Competitors your because they just do all propane. They never have one lost time injury And that's over seven or eight years of their guys working on propane systems like our 290 systems No lost time and this comes back to just that training and education of those those uh technicians But there's a lot of fear that's talking about don't get me wrong.
• 1:14
  People do get hurt around the world With using flammables with using co2 But also with hfcs so people don't talk about that people get hurt with hfc because this is a highly skilled trade Uh, we focus on some of these, uh, these now low hanging fruits, but even with regular hfc Refrigerators are 22 404 people have got hurt and before from it So it's just being aware that we're in a highly skilled industry to know about it This is very interesting 'cause I, I like that.
• 1:15
  I like that. Uh, we're increasing. Personally, I like the, the charge limit increasing in your cases and in other manufacturers system because now this is gonna reduce the cost of the equipment. What are your guys' thoughts on that? Because how was it made? How were your sy uh, like say your 12 door or say, let's see, five glass door systems or your, your 12 foot case.
• 1:16
  With our two 90, how many units did you need in a system like that with 150 GWP versus now you can go up to say 500 GWP.
• 1:17
  Dave: Uh, well, I'll take a piece of it and don't get into it, but yeah, I mean, the two door frozen case was typically about 150 grams, right? So you would need, you know, for a two door case, you know, one little canister unit, four door case too.
• 1:18
  And I think, uh, Don, I think that our five door. Frozen food along with everybody else was I think you required three condensing units. So, um, yeah, it'll, it'll significantly impact that because as the redesign occurs throughout the industry of being able to increase your charge limits, you know, let's just say you can cut in half almost the amount of equipment, you know, there'll be a propane, um, Case or a walk in box and something like that.
• 1:19
  So again, that's the to your point. What you said before, Trevor, you know, all these technologies will require full brand new install. So there's no big drop ins. You're going to need new piping. It just, you know, if you're going to retrofit a facility with propane, everything goes away. If you're going to retrofit a system with transcritical CO2 entirely, everything gets thrown away from the pipe.
• 1:20
  You can keep the hangers and that's about it. Um, and the location of the facility. Great. So I think that will significantly make a lot of these technologies, particularly propane, a lot more attractive in the next few years.
• 1:21
  Trevor: Yeah. What are your
• 1:22
  Don: thoughts,
• 1:23
  Trevor: Don?
• 1:24
  Don: Absolutely. And I think the, uh, you know, to Dave's point, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of good stuff there and, you know, let's talk about the, uh, the plug and play.
• 1:25
  Okay. And, you know, a lot of technicians, you know, we pride ourselves on being technicians and technical, but, you know, there is a learning curve to really anything we do, you know, CO2, you know, there's still going to be a lot of controls, a lot going on there, right? And I think with our 290 systems, you know, it's more of a plug and play I mean you've got a but to dave's point now you've got one condensing unit on Uh on a multi door case right and throughout the store where you're you know whether you go try to decide to go air cool or most likely a A closed system, right?
• 1:26
  With a fluid cooler. I think at the end of the day, it just makes it a little bit easier. Case controller, maybe with three parameters they have to program in. If there's a problem, you know, they take that, you know, disconnect that unit and take it off back to the shop, you know, replace it with another one and go.
• 1:27
  So I think it more modular. I think it's going to help us with our service needs. And I think as we go, it's going to be a positive thing. And I've been thinking this for a while that there are two nineties going to be a big player. I feel
• 1:28
  Trevor: I know it is. I see it around globally and different parts of the world that R290 is growing at a very fast rate, just like CO2, but it's not the solution for every every application, right?
• 1:29
  So we've got to understand that. Dave, what are your thoughts on, um, The monoblock. So I was out with Hussman last year. I drove through, went into the monoblock. This is one of your, I believe, R two 90 condensing units. Um, I'd love you to dive in a little bit on how this is going to, this is different than the equipment that you guys made before with, for R two 90.
• 1:30
  Dave: Well, I mean for the, we'll call the model block. That's it. That's it. Technology that we use, Husman. But what it, the way I'll explain it to the, the, uh, the layman's term is you, you got your window air conditioning unit that you might stick in a window in an apartment or whatever in your home. Um, same kind of concept as what, what this model block is.
• 1:31
  You basically, you, you're gonna cut, cut a hole in the top of your walk-in box, and you're gonna put this piece of equipment, self-contained piece of equipment on the, on the, uh, top of the box. And it's going to refrigerator, you know, freeze. Um. You know, uh, the, uh, the walk in box. You need so many of these units per square foot or whatever the application is, um, but it is a, it is a, uh, pretty much a drop in, um, and why I think it's, uh, it's a good transition into the, uh, propane market, because for anybody, instead of just.
• 1:32
  You know, it gives you a nice, it gives you a couple options. First, you can, you can, um, get exposed to the, uh, propane market very easily, you know, by a couple of walk in boxes. You put them in, you test it, you understand the technology. It's behind the, uh, in the back of the sales area, so it's, you know, the technicians can learn a little easier.
• 1:33
  Um, as you look at these existing facilities, primarily we've been talking about, uh, Brand new facilities, right? Or full blown retrofits. But when you've got an existing facility and you want, you know, you want to give your, uh, existing, say HFC system, um, a little more capacity, okay. You can, um, you can take this piece of equipment, put it in a couple of walking boxes and get back to your store.
• 1:34
  Those two things, it eased the capacity on the existing system. And now you're starting to transition that facility into more, more, you know, GWP, lower GWP. Rated facility. So, I mean, it. It really serves a few purposes from helping you moving forward, but also, you know, transitioning you into the new technologies.
• 1:35
  Trevor: Is this a piece of equipment that a technician just say something happens to it? There's an issue. They could have someone drive one up, drop one in place and pull that one off and take it back to the shop and work on it. Or is it something that goes in place and that you got to work on it there?
• 1:36
  Dave: Our experience so far with this woman is that it's a, it's very robust and durable.
• 1:37
  We haven't had really any issues there. It can be the air cooled or water cooled, but, uh, it, you know, it weighs about 250, 300 pounds. So, I mean, you know, I know Trevor, you could just pick it up, you know, without a problem. Oh
• 1:38
  Trevor: yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem. I'll just, just log out when I'll put a new one in because I think that's, that's what we're going to see.
• 1:39
  Not really here. I don't think in North America, but in other parts of the world where they're struggling for certain, you know, Tech skill technicians, right? And that's uh, I think there's a big opportunity around the world where well Like don said earlier more of a plug and play. Can you remove it put something in?
• 1:40
  um to to ease up on the The skill level because there's just so many places that I deal with the the skill level is just not there to work on equipment like this What's your next step don because I know you work on a lot of great training programs with your different trainers and you know Yeah Uh, in, uh, Lincoln tech and, uh, Ted, uh, tech X school.
• 1:41
  But what are some of your next steps for this new transition? So to help these technicians move along a little bit quicker?
• 1:42
  Don: Well, I think, uh, what we have to do is look at, you know, uh, you know, CO2, uh, R2 90, uh, H2Ls. They're here, they're, they're here, they're here to stay. So. I think, uh, what we're doing right now is we are hiring, um, trainers throughout the country for different parts of the area.
• 1:43
  We're coming up with a center of excellence of training. So we're going to all get on board, unite, and we're going to all take that mission on, uh, and get training going, uh, everywhere we can. Uh, and make sure that they have the best tools and the best training. So to your point, no one gets hurt. Everyone understands, and it's a positive outcome for our customer and for ourselves, especially
• 1:44
  Dave: to add to that, Trevor, the, um, what we're doing is that as we're rolling out these new technologies, we're inviting.
• 1:45
  The, uh, installation team, if it's not obviously a Hussman, um, integrator, and it's a third party that, that works directly for the customer. I mean, we're inviting them to be there. So we have our, our technicians there for, for assistance in commissioning or startup, you know, they can learn as well, you know, nothing's better.
• 1:46
  I mean, PowerPoints are great, you know, and meetings and things like that, but, uh, feeling and touching and working on equipment directly is, you just can't substitute that. And we, we've been doing that for at least the past year or two, specifically on the new technology, but we see an absolute need for that to increase throughout the industry.
• 1:47
  Trevor: Yeah, no, I think this is what we're going to see. I haven't been seeing a shift for the last few years where more people are willing to work together, share together, even competition. You know what I mean? Because we're a small industry and we're getting less and less people in our industry. So we've got to do some creative ideas on how we can help each other out, grow the knowledge Uh, internally as well as externally.
• 1:48
  So let's talk about the the Husband Roadshow that you guys have been putting on for a few years. I'm really excited. Is that the one last year here in Canada? I know you're doing them throughout the U. S. We want to dive in a little bit the whole purpose of the Roadshow, what you guys are trying to accomplish with your customers, contractors, and users.
• 1:49
  Dave: The, um, each year we have this Roadshow. Basically, it's a, it's a trailer that's got various technologies and information, um, Inside of it, um, to guide everywhere from the service text to the end users of what's happening currently in the industry. This past year, this year, right now that we've got rolling, we've got a lot of the new technologies, propane, CO2, um.
• 1:50
  And some others, um, as well as, uh, more information on the AIM Act and SNAP Rule 26. So it's a combination of education of the technologies that are out there available, not just with Huston, but in the industry, as well as what's going on with the regulations, um, throughout, uh, the various, um, well, the United States, as well as state by state.
• 1:51
  So if we're in, if we're rolling through, uh, say, uh, California area, we'll, we'll, we'll dive into a little more detail about. Specifically what's going on in California and their regulations because there are a number of states that are even much more aggressive Um as far as timelines and um and GWP ratings, etc Like in new york and california that we want to make sure we hate everybody out there.
• 1:52
  It's very important
• 1:53
  Trevor: It is very important because it is different. That's the the craziest thing about Uh in the the u. s Even in canada, there's a few different provinces have a little bit different regulations, but it's pretty much similar where I know in the u. s It is There's quite a bit of difference differences.
• 1:54
  What are your thoughts and what's your excitements about the roadshow, Don?
• 1:55
  Don: Well, I'm excited because I get a chance to present in a few of the stops. So that will be a first for me, um, in interacting with our customers. And like what Dave alluded to too, is this is. You know, we're looking at each customer and their individual needs, and it's not a sales pitch.
• 1:56
  What we're trying to do is train them and inform them really what's coming down the pipe and what they're going to have to look at. And what's nice about this roadshow is, again, really no sales pitch. But it's more of just trying to educate and we are going to include, uh, our branches. So anytime we can go in, like we have a Powder Springs, a big branch in Powder Springs for service and for install.
• 1:57
  So they will be included and invited to this roadshow as well. So yeah, it's more, it's our customers, which, you know, we need our customers first, but then also we've got our in house, uh, people, technicians that Are going to be able to take advantage of the training. So really exciting. This will be really fun.
• 1:58
  Trevor: I think it's going to be really good too here. I know there's tons of contractors coming out to the event here in Toronto. So I'm super excited. And Dave kind of alluded to something too. The AIMDAC, we didn't even get into the AIMDAC, but people don't understand about that ruling either, where now by 2025, self contained 150 GWP, depending on where.
• 1:59
  Large commercial refrigeration systems, less than 150 GWP. If you're under 200 pounds, it's 300 GWP, but there's a lot of changes happening. And this is why if you're a contractor, if you're an end user, you got to invest some time to learn about these new rules and regulations. Life is busy for all of us.
• 2:00
  If you're a technician out there, you're a contractor. You're busy. If you're an end user, you're busy. If you're a manufacturer, just like Dave and Don, you're busy. But we got to keep up to date on these regulation because this affects all of us, you know, and these, this is coming from government regulations, not just from anybody.
• 2:01
  This is coming down the pipe that has to be done and take and be, be, uh, mandated. So just be aware that Dave, any final thoughts on the next steps? In this road to this refrigeration transition, which I'm excited about. I'm excited about, because there's a lot of opportunity to help people. There's a lot of opportunity for change efficiency, but any final thoughts?
• 2:02
  Dave: Well, I'll say this, that, you know, we talked about the AMAC. Yeah. I mean, we, you could spend a whole nother podcast just talking about. Impact and various technologies and equipment and things like that over the next couple of years, the end users need to understand one thing they are responsible for all their existing facilities to monitor the exact amount of refrigerant and what is been accomplished on a retrofit side, um, leak rates, everything.
• 2:03
  So there is going to be a lot of time and effort and money that is going to have to be spent over the next few years. Um, to establish asset management and monitoring, um, everything you do in these existing facilities you have, whether you have 1, 2, 3 or 1000. Okay. The EPA is authorized to establish all these standards for HFC management.
• 2:04
  So somebody in your, in your organization. Big or small, it's going to have to manage and keep track of every facility, every system that you got in your facility, and know if an evaporator was changed, if it was increased, because the details and the parameters of, of these new regulations indicated if you, um, if you touch more than, say, 75 percent of that system, That you've been, you know, now you've got to change it out fully to something as if it was a brand new system.
• 2:05
  So, um, yeah, learn the system, learn the new technologies, learn the new, um, transition rules for both SNAP26 and the AMAC because, uh, there's not going to be any, any alternative to know what's going on the next few years.
• 2:06
  Trevor: Don, any final thoughts, uh, about the new rulings, training, education, roadshow?
• 2:07
  Don: Yeah, you know, I think with the, uh, you know, really with all the new refrigerants, with everything coming out, I think just getting, uh, you know, the training out there, get the word out there, you know, Hey, there's, there's room for, it seems like there's going to be room for all of us, right?
• 2:08
  CO2, uh, R290, A2Ls. I think everybody has a say in this. And I think just get in. Our teams, uh, whether our contractors or our install teams and our in house and, and technicians just ready for that challenge and just get them trained up, coached up, uh, and trained up. That's really, uh, and looking forward to that, uh, that challenge.
• 2:09
  And, you know, I'm an old guy, right? So I remember the transition from CFCs to HCFCs to HFCs. And so, you know, this isn't all, this really isn't new to a lot of us, but, uh, we'll just have to keep plugging forward. There's always, seems like there's a, there's a finish line sometimes. They just keep moving the gold post on.
• 2:10
  Yeah, that's what they do. Okay, good
• 2:11
  Dave: point.
• 2:12
  Trevor: The thing is, we're going to get to a point where this is the norm. You know what I mean? Right now, it's a big talk, but it's no different than when everyone was doing R12, right? And then, you know, 404, when I got in, was the norm. You know what I mean? Now, when we go, when we talk about this in 10 years time, uh, What we're talking about now is going to be the norm, but we got to get there, right?
• 2:13
  We got to get there safely We got to get there with some education We got to work together as an industry to help everyone out because at the end of the day We we take care of the planet refrigeration takes care of the planet from Food health safety, which you guys do to hospitals medications, you know, even climate control rooms, right?
• 2:14
  So i'm super excited. There's a lot gonna be going on. So it's uh, involve yourself reach out to the To the husband team. Um, actually, how can people get a hold of you and a little bit more? Uh, knowledge on what husband is doing for uh For the snap 20 through and doing for their customers. Where can they find you guys?
• 2:15
  Dave: Well, if you just go to husband. com, um, you can get, once you get into that, that main, uh, main home menu, there's a, uh, an area where it talks about sustainability, um, and what husband's doing as far as just being good stewards of the industry, but it will, we have all of the information currently, you know, what exactly is going on right now with the snap rule, AMAC and everything, we try to break it down to really simple terms of, you know, because it can be.
• 2:16
  It can be overwhelming when you look at these dates and times and, and guidelines, but we have, we have broken it down in a simpler version in one or two sheets. So you can better understand it. So if you just go to the husband. com and under sustainability, you can actually see the regulations and you'll see all that information right on there.
• 2:17
  Trevor: Yeah. I just went to Google and wrote a Hussman snap 26, and it just popped up, uh, aim technology, uh, act, and then, uh, sorry, and then the snap, uh, 26 rule. Pretty plain English for it broke down really well, because when I looked at the EPA website, it's, it's a little bit more, uh, complicated, but yeah, so go check out that website, Don, Dave, thank you so much for taking the time to share some knowledge with us, and I look forward to connecting with you guys soon.
• 2:18
  Dave: Great. Thank you, Trevor. Thank you, Trevor.