Latest / The You Project / #1533 Dr. Hannah's Having A Baby - Dr. Hannah Korrel

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#1533 Dr. Hannah's Having A Baby - Dr. Hannah Korrel · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'll get a team.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: Welcome to another installment and the project, Craigsmind. I'm doctor
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Hannah is up there and thriving metropolis of Sydney. Apparently
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: it's cold. She's sitting with the heater just blowing on
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: her feet, just just wasting all the energy. No, see
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: how I threw you under the bus straight away?
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: I look bad.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: No, you don't.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: You're just trying to stay warm. That's okay.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: My toes they're like icicles.
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: My partner tells me every time I go to bed,
• 0:29
  Speaker 4: my favorite place to put them is right under his thumb.
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: And apparently they're like the ten toes of death because
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: they're just little icicles. I'm sure a lot of other
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: women can relate to that, or partners of of death.
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Really okay, very cold?
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: You know you put your feet under his bum.
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like when we're sitting on the couch, when we're
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: in bed, like, I'll just like put them underneath his
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: body because they're nice and warm.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: I don't trust me.
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: I'm not the only woman who does that. I am
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: sure there are other women who do that.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I'm absolutely sure. Now you sound a little bit sick today.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Have you got the flu? Have you got COVID, are you?
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Oh no, I don't have the flu. I don't have COVID.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: Actually I have morning sickness.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Oh my, oh oh. Now have I told you about
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: the Craig bonus. I think I have.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: My name, my baby Craig. Yeah. I do like Harper.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: I like Harper a lot.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you what some of my I think about
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: three and nothing to do with me, of course, But
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: three or four of my friends have a guy who
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: used to work for me, Sam Wood, who now is
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: a megastar. Sam He was a bachelor and he owns
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: a company called twenty eight and he's.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Got a little girl called Harper.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: So of course, Prince and Brad and Carly, friends of
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: mine who I'm the fit shop, they've got a little
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: girl called Harper.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: It's funny how there's got.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Nothing to do with your area of expertise or mine,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: But fuck.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: It, isn't it funny?
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Isn't it funny how names go through kind of waves
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: like where that's up and about you know, three or
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: four or five or six years, and then it disappears.
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: Well, what I'd really like is and this is a
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: little bit tapp into the psychology, but I give my
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: daughter a name, and we know it's a girl. We
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: found out the other week. They're very exciting. I'd like
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: to give her, like a unisex name that's not obviously
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: a girl's name, because I want her to do her
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: best in life and reach her best potential. And I
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: don't know, Craig, if you can relate to this, probably not.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: But as a woman, I have found that having the
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: name Hannah on reports or having a female name has
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: been met with, you know, people who perhaps have not
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: taken me as seriously had my name been a man's name.
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: Perhaps that that what I've written to them may have
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: been received a little better or a little you know,
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: with a bit more acceptance with who am I?
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: What do I know? I just I wonder sometimes if
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: my life.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: Would have been a little easier if I had a
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: unisex name.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Wow, So if we could, if we could magic it
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: into existence? What what well have you have you narrowed
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: down a list be your daughter?
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Of course you might not even close.
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: It's so hard to pick a name because it's like
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: for the rest of her life, she'll she'll have this name,
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: and I want.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Her to do well in life.
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: Like I'm really I feel like I've joined this club
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: finally where I'm like finally started to get you know,
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: the parents who like they've had a child, they get
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: certain things that I've done before I fell pregnant, and
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: now I'm finally understanding the pressure of certain things like, oh,
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: picking her name is actually really difficult. Yeah, surprisingly had.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Now his his fun fact. I've got a friend. His
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: name is Hannah.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: Oh really like Hannah, like like Hannah.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Hannah, same as you h a n n ah, there
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: you go.
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: How is I wonder how he's found that. Does he
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: like having a name that sort of uni set?
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I think?
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: So?
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: He actually owns a restaurant in Brighton, Yeah, which is
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: the next town long And and he's big dude, like
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: big strong, not that it matters, but big, large, strong,
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: alpha male called Hannah. So yeah, I wonder if when
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: he signs things that people assume that he's I guess
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: they would.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: I guess they would.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: I actually I read about this study where you know,
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: a male and female, like just case anecdote or really
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: case study of where they swapped names in an organization
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: and the gentleman wrote emails with her name at the bottom,
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: and the woman wrote emails with his name at the bottom,
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: and then he was doing the same things he'd always
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: done with his sales and with his working and then
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: all of a sudden, after swapping names, he started having
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: difficulties with client interactions, people questioning him, people making his
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: life hard, questioning his ability to give them the right advice,
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: just just making the whole process a lot harder. And
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: he realized the only thing that had changed was that
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: he was signing off with his colleagues, you know, a
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: female colleagues name instead of his own name, Whereas she
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: had the opposite effect of people being easier to work with,
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: process going much smoother, people accepting her opinion and her advice.
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: So it was just kind of this really initial, very
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: brief study, but it really captured me. So I couldn't help.
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: But wonder, you know, how much impact does it have
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: on our I suppose, our ability to work with others
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: depending on how they perceive you or they've even met you.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that's that's really interesting, by the way,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that's consistent across industries, Like I wonder
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: if some industries, in some industries or professions, women are
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: held in higher esteem more regard than men.
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean, I mean, i'd like to think,
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: so I'm in a female dominated industry, and I know
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of female dominated industries like nursing and
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: teaching and allied health for occupational therapy spee pathology flips
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: around with physiotherapy. But interestingly, even in the female dominated industries,
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: it is always the case that it's male dominated when
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: it comes to the upper echelons within that industry, so
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: they're more executive level. Suddenly flips around again, even though
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: it's female dominated, and all of a sudden, it's male
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: dominated in the executive and senior roles. So, you know,
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: I'd like to say, maybe it's different, but it hasn't
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: necessarily been my experience that you know, I hope that
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: my daughter would grow up in a world where her
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: gender didn't matter and that her expertise was taken to
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: be the most important, most important part of her Well, I.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Mean that, you know, it is silly that I mean
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: that that's still yes, but you're right, it still happens.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: It still hopefully it happens less. But does it still happen?
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: You know, gender bias and all the different biases of course,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you today.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: I wanted to talk a little bit. Today won't be
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: a long one because you're a little bit under the weather.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Oh by the way, by the way, did you this?
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm meant to ask this on air?
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Will will like, was the baby girl? Was she intended?
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Or was this a happy?
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: Oh god, that's a great question. Don't feel to this out.
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: This is the best question. So she was a beautiful
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: a little bit of both. So we we actually because
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: I'm a little bit older and most this is we're
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: getting into gender stuff a lot this episode, Craig, But
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: most of my last ten years have been told I'll
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: be well, you should be careful, you better get onto it,
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: you better hurry up. You're not gonna be able to
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: get pregnant, Like heaps and heaps of pressure increasingly of
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: people saying, you know, like you need to think about
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: being able to get pregnant, and what are you going
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: to do if you can or you can't, et cetera.
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: And freezing my eggs, like so much pressure to go
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: check my fertility and freeze my eggs and see if
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: my ovaries are working, et.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: Cetera, et cetera.
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: And I've been pretty laid back and cool about the
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: whole thing until more recent years where it did get
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: to me and I started to get a little scared
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: of my fertility being good enough, and also the fear
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: that if something did happen and I couldn't fall pregnant,
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: that it would somehow be my faults because I didn't
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: I was selfish, and I didn't have children quickly enough
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: and now you can't have children like this, this idea
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: that it would have been my fault, and I don't know.
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: Maybe that's other women can relate to that, maybe they
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: can't relate to that, but that's just how I felt.
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: So my partner and I are in a good place
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: and we're really stable, really happy, just you know, the
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: best life, and we sort of thought, well, if we
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: have children that and we're really excited for that.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: So we weren't not trying. I think that's the phrase
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: we use. We weren't not trying. And the first time
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: we were not trying, weren't not trying was when we.
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: Fell pregnant straight away, so there was there was no
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: issues at all. We shout out to any women out
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: there who were worried about their fertility. You know, it
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: was all okay and everything went okay, and it's been
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: a really smooth booth sailing. So it's something I don't
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: hear a lot about with women and pregnancy. It's often
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: a lot of fear hungering. So I think it's a
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: nice good news story to hear about a woman who
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: waited a little bit longer and she was okay.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's as much as I can understand it,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: I understand it. And yeah, a lot of friends who
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: have been in a similar boat. I've got a question
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: for you, like when when you find out you're pregnant
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: and you're becoming This is not the episode we plan
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: to do, by the way, everyone, but fuck it, here
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: we are. Do you think like when you when you
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: when you get pregnant for the first time, as you
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: kind of said, like a whole new world opens up.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Now you're thinking about things that you've never had to
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: think about, you know, like, oh my god, there's a
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: lot of pressure choosing a name because what name that
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: could create positive or negative outcomes that could influence people
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: to treat her a certain way, or maybe you know,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: like I've never really thought about the impact that a
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: name would have in that sense, But it totally makes sense.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: But when you broaden that back and you think about
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: you being a mum, do you think about what are
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: some of the things that this is a This is
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: a tough question, right, this is a vulnerable question.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: But what are some of the things about you that
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: you don't want your daughter to have?
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: My skin like traits, habits thinking like with me, if
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I had a boy, there'd be so many things that
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: I do that I would not want him to do
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: or be Like, is there anything where you think, fuck,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: I hope she doesn't turn out like me in this.
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: Regard, Yes, Craig crippling anxiety. Really hope doesn't inherit that
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: I have, like terrible anxiety. And it's you know, there's
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: all that old cliche like, oh, you became a psychologist
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: because you have your own problems. Maybe maybe that's true,
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: But I grew up with like terrible, terrible anxiety. And
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: my parents had a we had five kids in the family,
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: and like they were not the not.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: The wealthiest of people. In fact, they're pretty poor people.
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: A lot of my life and my dad was you know,
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: went through a lot of trauma growing up himself, so
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: he you know, he had there was a lot of
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: intergenerational kind of stuff that affected us. And I grew
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: up with like really really quite significant anxiety around you know,
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: just trying to.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: Be good enough and people please.
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: And it took me, you know, really like a good
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: ten years over the last ten years to try to
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: get to the bottom of why do I keep putting
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: myself out? Why do I keep going to the fawn response?
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: You know, we talked a lot about that in our
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: little Your Brain in a Nutshell series like Freeze for Flight,
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: Freeze and fawn response. And I'm definitely a Freeze and
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: a fawn person, Like I just won't defend myself or
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: I will appease others and give and give and give
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: until the point of total exhaustion and burnout, and all
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: while sitting at home kind of shaking in my boots
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: because I'm so.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: Terribly anxious about it all.
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: So that's taken a long time to kind of work on,
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: and I constantly have to work when I was anxious.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: Just today, like I see a psychologist myself just for
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: like maintenance of mental health. You know, I've been seeing
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: a psychologist for years, and I think I'm going to
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: practice what you preach. I'm a psychologist and I see
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: a psychologist, so you know, I'm on top of it.
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: Compared to what I was when I was, you know,
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: in my early twenties. I don't have panic attacks or
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: you know, as bad episode of anxiety, doesn't control me
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: like it used to. But you know, that's something I think.
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: I think that comes down to how you raise a child.
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: And I want to make sure you know I'm going
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: to raise her in a way where she knows her
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: worth and she knows that it's okay to say no,
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: and it's okay to put herself first, and that that's
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: not selfish, it's actually good practice so that you have
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: enough in the tank to do other things in life.
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: But definitely I don't. Yeah, that's the thing I don't
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: want her to inherit about my personality, I guess, And
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: I don't want that to impact her in my parenting.
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: What about you tell me want something? Would you like
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: to have children? Are you going to have children? Can
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: I ask that?
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: No?
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: No?
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Fuck?
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Imagine really no another verse. Look if I was younger, maybe,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: but and and we've I haven't really spoken about this
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: on the show. But I I've been told one thousand
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: times you'd be a good dad.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I would, though, I don't know
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: if I would.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: But anyway, it doesn't it doesn't matter that that horses
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: that gate has closed. But in a hypothetical, in a
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: parallel universe, I would, Yeah, I would want my kid
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: to have better self esteem than I had, and two
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: to have more confidence. I mean my mom and dad.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: You know, it's hard because one of the things that
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: we do is, you know, we expect our parents to
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: be a certain way, and it's usually like I think,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: or you should be more like me dad, almost right.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: But the funny thing is my mum and dad. And
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: I don't want to bore my listeners who've heard this
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: too much, but my mum and dad grew up in
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: the Second World War. They were both born in nineteen
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: thirty nine, so it's a long time ago. And you know,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: they weren't raised in a Disney movie, you know, and
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: life was tough and mum was Mum's mum died giving
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: birth to her, so mum never had a mum, right,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: So you know, back in the days when it wasn't
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: as safe now as it is now. My dad was
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: one of six boys and eight eight people in a family,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: you know, six boys, depression, very little money, you know,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: and so then I grew up in compared to them,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: you know, luxury compared to them. So there wasn't but
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: with even though I had everything that I needed practically it,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: you know, there was probably stuff that, through no real
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: fault of theirs, that I didn't get emotionally, I guess.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: And but my mum and dad are really good parents,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: and for what they knew and what they experienced and
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: what they had to work with, I think they did
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: a really good job. And so but for me, I
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: would like to, you know, be if I was a dad,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: I guess invest a lot more emotionally than I got,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: like an emotion you know, yeah, like things are good,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: like a bike's good, school's good, bed's good, warm, dinner's good,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: all things that we absolutely need. And they did it,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: you know, a great job. But because my dad never
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: really received lots of affection or positive endorsement or you know,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: reinforcement or you know, like he wasn't great at that
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: despite the fact that he loved me, and he would
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: show that he loved me in other ways.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: But I think that, you know, I think a bit
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: of that, you know, but it's hard. It's like, I actually, wow,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: now I'm opening the door.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: But I like, I had a revelation one day, and
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: it was it was on a day I was talking
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: to one of my uncles and I realized when I
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: was talking to one of my uncles, my dad's brother,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: I realized that I hadn't really considered my dad as
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: a child as a boy. And then I tried to
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: put myself in my dad's childhood because my childhood was
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: a fucking dream compared to his. And then I went, ah,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: considering what he grew up in, which wasn't horrible, but
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: it wasn't far from horrible.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Right then he turned out great.
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: But when I look through the Craig window, I can
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: be very critical and very judgmental and all of that.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: But when I get off my high horse and I
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: start to you know, there's a you know, there's an
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: idea in psychology that you're probably well aware of called
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: false consensus effect, A false consensus effect basically, Yeah, So
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: what it means is we think that other people think
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: like us.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Ah, Yes, so I think.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: RON should think like me, and I expect him to
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: because I'm right, and how can he not think like me?
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: And so you know, and that for me, lucky, I'm
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: doing a PhD in self awareness, essentially self awareness.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: That for me was a real.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Expansion of my reality in my mind and an expansion
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: of my awareness and humility because I realized I was
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: actually the problem, not my dad. I was expecting my
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: dad to be the way that I wanted, rather than
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: just expecting my dad to be my dad how he is.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: You know, so like I think that's one of the
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: ever present challenges. Sorry I'm talking too much today, this
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: is your show, but I really think that, you know,
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: theory of mind, trying to understand and not agree with,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: not endorse, but just understand other people's mind and their thoughts.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: It's such a fucking interpersonal superpower.
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, it's funny because I you know, I do
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: a lot of work with autism. I do a lot
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: of work with your adversity. And you know, you're so
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: true like theory of mind that that word. Hopefully you
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: guys have heard that before. I'm sure you would have
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: talked about it before. But your ability to have empathy,
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: your ability to put yourself in other people's shoes, your
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: ability to not be ego centric anymore it's all that
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: are being all about me. It becomes I understand there
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: are other people, and there's that shift that happens around
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: five or six, you know, in the developmental stages when
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: you can you can recognize that you're not the only
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: person on the planet, and that mommy and Daddy have
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: feelings and other people have feelings as well, and you're right, Like,
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: it seems like such a spectrum of like why do
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: some people get almost like this hyper aware you know,
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: theory of mind where they're too aware other people, they're
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: hyper sensitive to other people and to a crippling degree
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: where they're people pleases and they can't stop Versus the
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: other end of the spectrum, where people are almost like
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: you know, you could say, I've met some narcissistic people
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: in my time. I've met some people who have clear
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: personality disorder issues, but I've also met people who, you know,
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: they're almost like on a genetic level, they are predisposed
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: to lack the theory of mine because of a you know,
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: an autism for example. And it's like, where do you
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: fall on that spectrum and sometimes it comes down to all,
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: how were you raised and what were you taught was
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: normal not normal? And what was love? And did your
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: dad get cuddles when he was younger? Did he talk
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: about his emotions when he was younger?
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: Son?
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: And so many men from the generation above you and
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: even your generation too, Craig would not talk about feelings.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: That is not acceptable to talk about feelings, like imagine
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: telling your dad to go and see a psychologist.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: You know what's interesting about my audience is that it's
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: seventy percent women. And it's not like, yeah, it's it's
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: and when I run workshops, like public workshops, it's even more.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: It's sometimes it's like I did a last time I
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: did a workshop at Deacon University in Melbourne. We had
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: six hundred and seventy people, and I would say, I
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: would say there were six hundred and twenty women.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, yeah in the rooms. Yeah yeah.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: And not because I mean, which is interesting, because it's
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: not like, you know, I'm talking about in inverted commas,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: women's issues, or I'm Brad Pitt or I'm I think
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: it's just the fact that I love talking about the
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: human experience and I love opening all the doors and
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I'm happy to be vulnerable and talk about my numerous
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: flaws and you know, and I and for whatever reason,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: I'm comfortable in that. In fact, I kind of almost
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: thrive in that because it's just like to me, because
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: that's just real. And some guys, uh are like, I'm
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: getting more and more men, which is great talking about
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: feelings and talking about shame and talking about you know,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: acknowledging shit that is just part of who we are,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: rather than going not not not don't want to talk
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: about it, but yeah, it's it's a really interesting that
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: whole idea of trying to understand someone else's version of
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: right now without judging it, without saying, oh it's your
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: right or you're wrong or you know, but just that
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: not so much putting a value on it, but just having,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: you know, that whole idea of seek first to understand
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: and then to be understood.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I wonder why it is that? I mean, do
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: you have any theories about when I could? I can postulate,
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: but do you, as a man, have any theories about
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: why is it? Because I see this time and time
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: and time again with mental health and women in abundance
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: who are seeking assistance, guidance, improvement, you know, journey to
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: greater self awareness and greater mental health. And there's this
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: almost like as actually as you describe this huge seventy
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: percent split with the uptake of men doing the equivalent, Like,
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: why is it that they struggle to engage with mental
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: health even though this clear recognition that men's mental health
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: is almost more severely affected than women's with suicide rates
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: and things like that, Why are men not engaging?
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Whye, Well, there's an overarching reason that we can then
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: break down, and the overarching reason is fear, right, Like,
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: they don't because they're scared, and you go, scared of what,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Scared of looking weak, scared scared of being embarrassed, scared
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: of not belonging to the tribe, the bloke tribe. Yeah,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: you know, like I can't say who, but I do
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: work with a few groups and in some groups that
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: it wouldn't be too hard to figure out what I'm
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: talking about. You do not want to put your hand
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: up for mental health. And you know what I'm saying,
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: there are some groups that you because if you admit
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: that you have mental health issues in some groups, that's
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: actually going to hurt your career. So while some organizations
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: are outwardly going, oh, we're all about the mental health
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: of our the practical reality behind the curtain is that
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: if you actually do say I need help, I've got
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: mental health issues in some places, that's going to put
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: the brakes on your advancement of your career.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: So, I think the overarching answer is they're scared of stuff.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: And the stuff is I don't want my career to
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: come to a grinding halt. I don't want people to
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: think I'm weak. I don't want to be embarrassed. I
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: don't want to be ejected from my grid.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but the irony is.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: It's actually like if you do get ejected from that group,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: will fuck that group? Like that's not the group you
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: want to be in. I like, I love hugging men.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: I love sitting with a man who's crying. I love
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: vulnerability because it's fucking true, it's all there anyway. All
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: we're doing is, all we're doing is opening the door.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Like all of the guys who never cry, who never
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: talk about their feelings, who never and I'm not being
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: critical of them, but it's not that they don't have emotions.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: It's just that they won't open that door because there's
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: a social penalty for that.
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, perceive social penalty, yes, But I also wonder, like
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: how many women who'd be listening, who wouldn't love, you know,
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: absolutely jump with the chance for their partner or their
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: brother or their best mate or whatever whoever it was,
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: to share something deeper with them and to explore something deep.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: And I often have male friends who, funnily enough, it's
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: interesting you mentioned like in certain spheres of their life,
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: men not being able to share how they're going emotionally
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: or say anything about having an emotional struggle because God forbid,
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: you know, they're a doctor or a policeman or a
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: fireman or whatever, and they get fired as a result
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: of it.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: But in higacy and behind closed doors.
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: In terms of what they then do with themselves, Like
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: my mental health journey, just my own perspective has all
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: been personal, Like I go and see a psychologist private aside,
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: not to do with work. That's my own self journey
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: into becoming a better version of Hannah. But what are
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: the men do in their private life like to then
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: improve how they're going? And is infiltrating the private life
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: as well? Like can men talk to other men or
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: other women in the at least in their private life,
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: or are they just bottling it up everywhere?
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Tell me, Craig, you're around.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Well, the answer is yes, they can, but maybe even
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: the better question is do they? And the answer is
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: sometimes some men sometimes. Look it is it is getting better,
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: but it is slower than I would like it to be.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: But you know, it's like this, This is a very
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: personal story. But my training partner Mark, lovingly known as
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: the Crab. I don't know if you know this story,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: but four and a half years ago we were training
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: at the gym and he he had a cardiac arrest.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Oh god, you're dead, absolutely dead for seventeen minutes, right,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: And so I worked on him and all of that,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: and fortunately he came back seventeen minutes later. But it's
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: funny when you have this experience and he's an alpha male,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: he's an ex pro body, he's fucking massive. He's you know, like,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: if you're ever going to get stuck on an island,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: get stuck with him. He'll build you a city by Tuesday.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Right. I'm about as handy as an ashtray on a motorbike.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: I'm fucking shit, right, he's a many man man, right,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: but we had this. It doesn't get much more intimate
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: than you giving one of your best friend's mouth to
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: mouth CPR and keeping him alive until the ambos come.
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Well, that just opened the door and hopefully people don't
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: have to go that through that for the door to open.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: But for me, well one where you know, we're still
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: you know, we just talk shit and hang out. We're
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: mates and we train every day. But it was interesting
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: for me because in that moment where I'm on the gym,
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: he's on his back dead. When he fell, he bit
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: through his tongue, so there's blood coming out of his mouth.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: I won't give you too much more of a description,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: but I could, and it's not pretty. But in that
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: moment where I'm trying to save my friend's life and
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: my mouth's on his mouth and there's blood everywhere, and
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: it's fucking you know, there's nothing in me going, oh
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: what does this look like?
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Oh my god?
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: You know, there's none of that bullshit present, all of that,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: all of that, you know.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Oh this is not cool on my ego? Oh fuck,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: what would people think if they saw that? Like it
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: all vanishes. It's all fucking rubbish, right, And I don't know.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: And I've had a few things, like a few like
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: some of my best friends have died, you know. I
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: had a really good friend of mine die about four
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: months ago, you know, and you know, left behind two
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: young children. And it's like when you go through and
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I'm on no level of victim. I'm blessed. My life
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: is amazing. There's no self pity here. But when you
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: go through that with other people, for me anyway, I'm like,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: I don't have time for me. I do not person
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: I have time for all the bullshit, Like if I
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: love you, you'll know if you might like. My best
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: mate in the world is Vin. We talk on the phone.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Every time we talk, we tell each other we love
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: each other every time. And he's a man's man, he's
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: an electrician. He's a blokey bloke. Every time I tell
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: him I love him, every time I hug him because
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the future holds, and I don't
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: want to go fuck.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: I wish I had oh if only I had.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: A It's just I don't want to let my bullshit
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: get in the way. And I think us men, and
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: I'm generalizing, not all men, But some men sometimes let
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: their bullshit get in the way when they actually love deeply,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: they love their mates, you know, And I just think,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: and they love their family and they let you know,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: and I just think that we don't need to be walking.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Around every eight minutes telling everyone that.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: But I just think it's you know, it's slowly shifting,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: but it'd be good if there was a little bit.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Of a hurry on.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: And it's ironic.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: Actually, the irony is like it's painful at times and
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: laughable at other times, but the irony of the ultimate
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: you know that from what I can guess, and I'm
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: not a man, so I am just guessing. But like this,
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: this hierarchy, this pyramid, this elite at the top, what
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: you're aiming for of being the perfect guy, the perfect man,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: you know, and the perfect man's loyal, and the perfect
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: man is honorable, and the perfect man has integrity, and
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: he's there for you, and he's never down, he's never upset.
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: He does everything because he's the perfect man. And the
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: irony of that model is to actually be that guy
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: who is there for people, loyal, has integrity, who's not bothered,
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: who for the most part has good You know, stable
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: mental health and healthy relationships with other people is not
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: through that pathway. It's actually through the pathway that often
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: gets pushed away, which is acknowledging feelings, talking about feelings,
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: feeling validated that you've got those feel and normalized for
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: having those very human emotions, and then processing them so
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: that you can then be a great friend and a
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: great partner, and a great lover and a great brother
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: and whatever else you.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Want to be.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: But it's so ironic to me that the way we're
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: walking towards that ultimate goal is actually probably the one
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: thing that's pushing you further away from that goal.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you know, here's the thing, right,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: is that compassion and humility and vulnerability can coexist with
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: whatever the fuck being a man means.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: It's like, if I'm out and about and someone threatens
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: a friend of mine, I'm like, I will do what
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: I need to do to protect my friend. Do you
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? I don't want to be in
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: a fight. I don't want to confront it. But at
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: the same time, being vulnerable and compassionate doesn't mean you're weak,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you're letting people dominate you. You know,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: there's still a time, there's a you know, there's a
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: time for you know, control aggression. Hopefully not often, but
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: if somebody you know, I went into the city, it
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: was probably ten years ago now, and this just random
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: guy grabbed my stretch, stepped in front of us and
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: grabs my mum on the arm. Like my mom at
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: the time was seventy four, right. Oh, needless to say,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: he wished he hadn't done that, and he was just
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: some stranger that he wanted, you know, and I didn't.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I'm just like, that's not okay, that's not you know.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: I'm like and I'm like, what the fuck are you doing?
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: And you know, but so but without being the alpha male,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: there's there's a time to go, hey, that that behavior
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: is unacceptable.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I need to protect someone.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: I hope that I never get in an altercation ever
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: again in my life. I don't want to do that.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, we can't just grab my mother.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: There's a consequence for that. That's not okay, you know.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, do I want
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: to hurt anyone? Of course not do.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: I understand that that guy's probably got mental health issues,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: of course, so you know, but at the same time
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: we you know, there's this there's this duality of still
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: being able to be a strong male or female, strong
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: when required, mildly terrifying. My mum's fucking terrifying at times.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: For a woman that's about three foot tall, she's terrifying,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: you know. But also that can coexist with kindness and
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: compassion and empathy and awareness. You know, it doesn't have
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: to be one or the other.
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: That's so interesting actually, just as a reflection, and hopefully
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: you don't mind me making this reflection, but it's so interesting,
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: you know, when we tapped into the part of the
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: conversation where we really talked about vulnerability and you know,
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: this being the perfect guy, the perfect man, and then
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: vulnerability and then the memory that came up for you,
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: because so for me, I was talking in my sphere
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: and my mind, my conceptualization as a woman. I was
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: thinking about mental health and talking about feelings and therapy,
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: and it didn't even cross my mind, not for a second,
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: did the need for sometimes being assertive and aggressive and
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: protecting your loved ones. That didn't even come into my
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: head at all, not even to my conceptualization at all.
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: That occurred to me and but for you that when
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: we tapped into vulnerability, a memory that came up for
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: you was protecting your mother from an assault. And I
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: just feel like I need to report and reflect on
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: that that those two comments about being vulnerable was then
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: so intrinsically tired with a memory of the time you
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: had to defend your mum.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean like hit the practical reality two right,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Like life's not a theory, Life's not a podcast with
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Hannah and Craig, Like life's a messy shitfest. And you know,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: I'll give you another story. One day, about three years ago,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: I live on a main street and I heard this
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: this child screaming and crying. I'm like, oh my god.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: And I went outside and all I saw was a man,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: my size man hitting a child.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh wow.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: I went fucking nuts. And then he turned to me
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: and he goes, it's my it's my kid, right, And
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not going to stand there while you
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: the child was four or five.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to just let you. I don't care
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: whose child it is. I'm not going to stand by
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: while you assault a child. I said, if you hit
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: if you hit him once more, I will fucking knock
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: you out.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Wow what And he stopped. And I don't want to
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: do that.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to sound anything, but there's something
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: in me that Look, there are times, unfortunately the practical
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: reality of the human experiences, sometimes you need to intervene.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Hopefully it's hardly ever. And of course I didn't hit him,
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: and of course I didn't want to hit him, but
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: if he had kept hurting that child, I would have
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: hurt him. Yeah, and you go, trust me when that's happening.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: You want somebody with some controlled aggression. You want somebody
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: who will get in the way. There was a guy
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: called Sir Edmund Burke, and he said, all that's necessary
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: for evil to triumph is for good men slash women
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: to do nothing.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: That's so, you know, that's actually brought a memory up
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: for me, that's brought which I'm going to share. It's
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: a bit of a vulnerable memory, but I remember seeing that.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: I remember seeing you know. It was years ago and
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: I was standing in Newtown in Melbourne, in Sydney, and
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: I was waiting to go into an appointment. I was,
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: funnily enough, I was going to get some singing bowl.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: Singing bowl sound therapy, which is amazing. We'll talk about
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: it another day. But I was waiting outside to go
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: into this like this kind of therapeutic, lovely spiritual session,
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: sitting on the street, and you know, you just people watch,
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: observe people like Sticky Beacon. And I was watching this
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: couple in a car right beside me, and they were
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: having a bit of a heated discussion, and then I
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: watched the partner, the man in the car, strike the
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: woman like he hit her.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: He hit her in the face.
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: And then I stopped talking and looked down and then
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: you know, and then you know what he did? Can
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: you be emotional talking about it? He looked up at
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: me and he made eye contact and he saw that
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: I had seen it, and he smiled.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: He's smart.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: He smiled because he knew because I stood there and
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh my god, I can't believe what
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: he's just done. And so many thoughts popped in my head,
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: like go to the car, open the door, pull her out,
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: like call the police, like what do you do? And
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: he just like, he just smiled at me because he knew.
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: There's nothing you can do, sweetheart. Yea, he was so right,
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: because he's this big, massive guy on this tiny little thing.
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: He's in a car about to drive off, and I'm
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: sitting there on the side of the road, like what
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: am I going to do? How do I protect this woman?
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: And in my mind I was like, get out of
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: the car, get out of the car. And she stayed
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: in the car and I stood there like just kind
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: of paralyzed and frozen for another good five minutes after
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: they drove off, going what should I do? Should I
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: call someone? Will they believe me? If I call the police?
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: Will they listen?
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: And it was a horrible it was a horrible situation
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: where I'm really ashamed to say I did nothing.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: I didn't do anything because I didn't, you know what
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: I mean.
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: It was it was at and at the time I
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: was like, yeah, if I was a strong man, maybe
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: I would have chosen a different path there. And I
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: still I still it was years ago. I still think
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: about that woman and wonder where is she now?
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: You don't have to feel ashamed. I mean for you
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: to put your you would have then it depending on
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, probably that guy's a psychopath. Probably like if
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: he's belting a woman then smiling at you he's a psychopath. Yeah, yeah,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: that's I mean, these are just that's you know, it's like,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: that's what I said. Life's not a conversation with you mean,
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: it's not a theory, It's not I mean, how many
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: how many women have been on the end of that
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: kind of horrendous treatment And this is this is what
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: I'm saying. You know, sometimes all that's necessary for evil
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: to triumph is for well, the original saying is for
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: good men to do nothing. And it's like, I fucking
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: you know when you tell me that story, that makes
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: me mad, not mad that you didn't do anything, but
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: just like and I hate it. I hate it that
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: some evil, fucking pricks do that. And and but there
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: is a that's why, you know, It's like I hate war, right,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: but we need an army, we need a defense force.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Like what like literally, what do they do?
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Will they?
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: You know, depending on the context, sometimes we send people
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: overseas to kill people. I mean like it's it's like
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: in a perfect world that we don't have but if
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: we did perfect world, there'd be none of that. But
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: that ain't where we live. And while we don't want
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: to be negative, we do want to be practical. And
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: that the truth is like, especially right now in Melbourne
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: and nearly every night on the news, there are stories
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: of home invasions where people are you know, people older
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: people are being robbed, bashed, threatened, periodically killed. You know
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: that recently in Sydney, that horrible event in the shopping center.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, like, let's hope that that doesn't
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: happen again, but we all know that that is a
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: version of that is going to happen again. Not necessarily
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: that same as that or similar, but like, this is it.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: We want to be positive, we want to be loving,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: we want to be empathetic, but we also need to
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: be fucking prepared and we also need to be practical
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: and realistic, you know. And I say this stuff to
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: people all of the time. You know, it's like, don't assume,
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: don't assume it's going to be okay. Don't also assume
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: it's going to be not okay. But you know, yeah,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: it's I don't know how we got to this place, but.
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: No, I think it's like I'm having a daughter myself,
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: and I think about these things now where I go
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: give me I'm that's saying like punching up like and
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: they say it with jokes and humor, like don't punch,
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: don't punch down, you know, but it's okay for you
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: punch across or punch up, like I think I see
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: that with like mental health and awareness like you. You know,
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: women can't be expected to educate men like we can't.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: We can't.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: It's like the dangers for us to for me to
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: say that's not okay, that's not okay for you to
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: do that, the risk of me very real risk of
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: me being physically assaulted as a result of trying to intervene.
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: But then, you know, men teaching other men. You know,
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: don't speak to her like that, don't don't make jokes
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: about her like that, don't treat her like that, don't
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: talk about her like that, or you know, make it's
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: okay to talk about your feelings.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: It's okay to talk about you.
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: Know, don't call him that, don't call him a pansy
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: for talking about it, like men teaching other men, because
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: you are physically stronger, and you are you do have that,
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: you know, physical ability to kind of be on the
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: same level as a fellow, as a mate and say
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: to him when something's not okay and when something is
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: okay with not no fear, because there's definitely always going
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: to be fear, but certainly less fear than perhaps a
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: woman would or a child would standing up to a
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: male to say that wasn't okay. I think that's why
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: you know, you're saying of what you were talking about
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: with the saying of when good men stand and do nothing,
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: that to me, I see, Yeah, good men need to
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: stand up to other men to help educate them about
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: better mental health and better treatment of everyone. And that
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: to me is where I can see the future. When
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: men teach other men, that's when things will start to
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: change because I think they'll listen.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well hopefully who knows, Hopefully one person will hear
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: this that needed to hear it, and maybe there'll be
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: a you know. I also I also want to say
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: that not all men are bad men, of course not.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: There are a lot of great men. I don't put
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: myself in the great men category. But you know, not
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: every not every man is a bad man. Not every
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: man is doing bad things, not every man is violent.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Not every man, you know.
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: So.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: We need to acknowledge what's going on. But we don't
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: want to throw all men under the bus.
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: Because I feel bad to those good men as well,
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: because I do wonder if it's a little bit like,
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: you know, eighty percent of the work is being done
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: by twenty percent of the of the army sort of
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: you know, like too much for the individuals like yourself
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: to be working you know, on like mental health and
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: supporting men.
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: And it's you know, one voice among millions.
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: Of other men.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: Like it's it's hard. It's so hard.
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: It's that collective effort that's needed so that not one
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: person has to constantly be the one voice that stands up.
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: It's so much voices.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: I think also, you know, like I feel like I
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: have a bit of a responsibility sometimes because I have
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: a platform and I'm a bloke to go, hey, blokes,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: let's let's talk about our stuff. Let's be honest and
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: raw and all of those things. But also at times
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: sometimes I've said to lots of men over the years,
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: you know, that's not okay, Like that thing that you're
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: doing not okay, not okay, it's not okay. And also
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: you know, even for myself, not in not in terms
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: of like you know, hurting people, but you know, just
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: like one of the challenges I think if we're really
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: serious about not only helping others, but really helping ourselves. Right,
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: I have to acknowledge that I fuck up. I have
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: to acknowledge that I've got an ego. I have to
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: acknowledge that I make bad decisions, and I need to
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: work on me because I'm definitely not the high watermark
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: for fucking human behavior. And so it's it's I think
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: we can all be works in progress as well as
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: helping others. Like if I wait until I've got all
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: my shit together before I ever do a podcast or
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: ever help anyone, or same with you, before you ever
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: treat anyone or work with any patients. If you wait
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: till you've got all your shit together, you're never going
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: to see anyone, you know, because we're all simultaneously students
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: and teachers.
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Well, hopefully we've helped somebody a little bit today. And
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: this actually turned out to be a very important conversation.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: And so thank you for Thank you for being vulnerable
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: and real and honest, and I love that. I think
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: there's some synergy between our perspectives and you helped me
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: understand stuff better. And maybe my own site has been
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: helpful as well. I'm not sure, but yeah, it's a
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: really important conversation. I'm glad we had it, me.
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: Too, and I'll quickly say for anyone if it's brought
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: up anything for you guys, to definitely get in touch
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: with Lifeline. On thirteen eleven fourteen, you can reach out
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: to Headspace. We'll be on blue. There are lots of
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: amazing resources for people with you know, who are going
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: through any kind of mental health difficulties. So we're like
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: on Craigstrom Steak on your behalf that we really highly
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: encourage you to reach out and seek some support. If
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: any of this has brought anything up for you today.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah definitely.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Well say goodbye a fair but as always to you
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: and little Craiggina.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: Get Craig Gina. Look I'm okay with either a little
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: halfer a little halfer.
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: Thanks Uncle Craig, and thanks for being chat. Thanks guys
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: for listening.