Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 043: Seattle, Washington. Steven Rinella discusses stream access laws with Hillary Hutchinson, Ryan Callaghan, Land Tawney, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater crew.

Transcript

Ep. 043: Seattle, Washington. Steven Rinella discusses stream access laws with Hillary Hutchinson, Ryan Callaghan, Land Tawney, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater crew. · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: boat bitten and in my case, underwear. Listen, don't make
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: you eat your podcast. You can't predict anything, all right. Um,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: first thing I'm gonna do is screw Yanni over here
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: because I, uh, did you bring my perch flies? No? Alright, Yanni?
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: If anyone's been following this, Yannie will not make me
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: my perch flies until because he won't. Um, I won't
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: do any promotion and for his T shirt company, So
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: I will not talk about the striking red Hunt to
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Eat knee Eater collaboration T shirt that he's wearing right now.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Take that, because he will not. What's you know? What's
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: the stinker about our hunting fans and our and our
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: purchasers and buyers is that you know, we make these
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: colors thinking like man, someone's gonna break out of the
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: mold of blue, gray and white. And we've sold probably
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: almost a hundred to one blue to red T shirts
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: people like blue. Are you plugging your T shirt coming
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: right now? No, I'm talking about his buyers. You're The
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: thing about the thing about the perch fly that's driving
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: nuts is like I put a picture up of the
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: perch fly and people like, oh yeah, it's it's such
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: an easy tie, you know. But that's not the point.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: The point is that twenty months ago I asked you
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: to do a small favor and you refused. Um, what's that?
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: What's that hook? Do you want him on? I'll show
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: you right there. Well, i'll show you in a minute.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I like unlike most people who have
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: been fishing for a long time, I can't tell you.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: I can't look at the hook and tell you. I
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: just know what I want to see it. But that's
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: not what I want to talk about. There's a thing
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about. There's the main thing we're
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: gonna talk about, and there's a thing I want to
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: talk about real quickly before the main thing. And then
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I already have a segue. That's It's amazing how I'm
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: gonna get from the one to the other. It's gonna
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: be like you're reading a David Foster Wallace thing. When
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: I hit my segue. Um, you'll see in a minute.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: The first thing I was gonna talk about his call
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Ryan Callahan's here, Calt. What was the your favorite thing
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: about the week you just spend at our fish shack,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: like your your favorite thing that I did. Oh so
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: went to Steve's Fish Act in Alaska and it was
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: so overwhelmingly awesome. I'm having a hard time picking something out,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: but I loved the harpooning of halibut next to the boat. Yeah,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: when we get a big halibut, because we're fishing small boats,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: really small sixteen foot skiff and the eighteen ft skill
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: like I would think people were looking at as funny
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: when they're putting by us in their pur sayers and
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: stuff out there. Yeah, and when you get a big
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: fish in a little boat, it's different than a big
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: fish in a big boat. So what we'll do is
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: we get them up and then we'll harpoon them and
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: then sometimes kind of hog time and then drag them
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: up into the boat. It's fun, incredibly fun. Explain that
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: how that harpoon works. It's a detachable head on it.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: So what I did is I went down to home Depot.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: I mean you can buy them, but I went down
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: to home Depot and bought a whole handle, like a
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: replacement handle for a garden hole, and drilled it out
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: and put a piece of stainless steel. U doubt stainless
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: steel riding there and then there's a detachable head you
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: buy where the detachable heads slips over the stainless steel
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: shaft and that's connected to a cable and then you
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: run the cable to a rope and the rope to
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: a buoy. So when you stick the fish and the
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: gill cover you pass through the fish, the detachable head
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: comes off and forms like a toggle on the other
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: side if you get a clean pass through, and then
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: you just throw the booty overboard and you watch that
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: booty kind of go and a good fish will pull
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: the booty. The bootie's out sides of a beach ball,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: small beach ball. We didn't see the buoy going under,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: but we had uh the one kind of yeah, how
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: that will take that booy way down, you know. And
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: we've had it too. Were you sticking with the hard
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: poon and the rod comes undone like the hook comes out,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: and then you know you go, you can disconnecting the
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: anchor line and go get chase the booty and get
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: the fish. It's nice it pins those gills down, um,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: and it just you have all this chaos of this
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: thing coming up to the boat and there's rods and
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: and sharp hooks and stuff flying around, and then a
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: lot of dudes yelling real real, real give advice. So
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: if you hit the fish and the gill cover and
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: get like a good pass through, then what you can
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: do is you just once you get the fish out
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: of the boat, he's if you hit him to gil
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: and his gills are bleeding, they'll kind of bleed him
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: out anyways. But then if he's big, you can bleed
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: him and then take the cable and pull it tight
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: and hog tied around his tail so he's curled up.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Then drag him the boat and he doesn't go bananas
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: in the boat and the whole help. But it was
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: amazing because like the bleeding process, it's like almost like
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: if you were to you know, it's a ton of blood,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: like major artery just I mean gives big squirt. And
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: then the intestines on a sauce it looks like about
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: making sausage casing. I've never seen intestines on the fit
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: like discernible in it was the whole We opened up
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: a hall of it stomach were you there for that?
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: We don't know the hall but stomach and it had
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: a seabird in it. Yeah, I was there for that. Yeah,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: he caught a seabird a diver you were doing? At first?
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: I thought, at first I thought he had a porcupine,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: because it was kind of it was digested partially. But
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: then I realized I was just looking at the um
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: the basis of the feathers, which seemed yeah. So however
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: the hell he come into that either died and sank,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: or he grabbed it when it was down fishing. Um
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: pulled a big chunk of squid out of one, a
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: lot of fish bones, found a rockfish old list in
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: one's gut, and then what else we so we got
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: a bait, a lot of old bait, a lot of
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: salmon bellies. We'll take on pink salmon. You're allowed to
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: use the belly strip of pink salmon, so we use
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: pink salmon bellies. Hooligans. My brother Danny dipped up a
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: bunch of hooligans in the twenty mile river they run
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: in the spring. So salt the hooligans down and use
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: people called candle fish. It's a very oily fish and uh,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: all amazing information. However, it will be gone because nobody
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: wants to keep a journal up there like this is
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: all good stuff. I think it will improve. Yeah. But
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do, though, is I want to start
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: take up one of our charts and start putting a
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: pin at all known Halibit locations, all known Yellow Eye,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: and all the linkod locations. So we also dove um.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: One day we went out on a good we had
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: a good low tide. Uh. You know, lunar cycles drive
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: the tides, but there's also a big influence from the sun.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: So when the Sun and the moon are aligned right,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: you can get very deep tides and they're normal. So
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: like it's tide start at sea level. High tide would
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: be a high high tide to be plus twenty, so
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: twenty ft above sea level, but a big low tide
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: is only like minus four minus five. We went out
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: of the minus three tide and dove for scallops, rock
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: scallops and cucumbers, and Cal was the boat tender for that.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: We gotta the amount of se cucumbers. Yeah, you gotta
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: google these things. And it looked like this. Really, it
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: looks like a diseased male member, seriously diseased bad and
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: they come in acid trip. Yeah, if you had a
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: diseased male member and looked at it while tripping sign
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: me up. That was the voice of Hillary. Oh, I
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: want to do my thing though my transition, so check
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: it out. So my fish shacks on the beach. Okay,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: someone can come walking down the beach in front of
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: my fish shack. Legally, I have no right to go
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: yell at him, right, correct. That's why we're gonna talk
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: about access. You guys like that. Um uh as though
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: dealing poker. We got five people here, can can uh
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: like I'm dealing now to you? So introduce yourself please
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: land Tani back country hunters in English. It's it. I
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: mean like like sushi anytime. I do have two young
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: kids and the eight year old and a five year old. Uh,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: spent a lot of time outdoor. Just got back from
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: the Bob Marshall, spent my thirteenth wedding anniversary and the
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Bob Marshall this weekend. I did, and just us too.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: You haven't done that thirteen times in a row, head, No,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: that's three years in a row. My brother renews his
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: vow every university I don't know married two years. Okay,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: probably she puts the dress back on and oh they
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: did not redo the vows I mean, that's what they
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: like to do. That's what they like to do, right.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: You know what's cool about where he got married. He
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: got married on his wife's ranch or family's ranch, been
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: there for a couple of a few generations. You know,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: they got a family plot where the grandparents and stuff
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: embars buried. They got married right there. Abody to go
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: back up there for sure? Where'd you go on to, Bob?
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: We went in, uh, just outside of Ceey, not Pyramid
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Pass and not Morle Falls, but somewhere close um and
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: went into this lake up on tops about three and
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: a half miles and you get feet of elevation and
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: that three and a half miles. So we got four
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: of them. With a gas we hammered the cut throats
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: fan and the first lake that we stayed at was dead.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: It had a bunch of leeches in it, no fish.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: And you popped into this one that had bad leeches,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: like big leches, big ones like that big. You think
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: there would be fish because of that. That's why I
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: think when we saw him, like they are all these
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: leeches are out in the open just like swimming around,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: and so we you know, like it was like that
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: was a red flag that there was no fish in there,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: and then we we stayed right there because they'll they'll
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: parasite on the fish. Official eve s there's no fish
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: there because all the baits there. No. What I'm saying
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: is when I when the bates being that obvious that
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: we got full rain bait, it's like baitland. So we didn't.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: There was no fish there, but there was a like
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: a probably i don't know, a mile and a half
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: away there was an awesome little lake where we had
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: a waterfall that was about forty ft coming off this
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: sheer kind of rock face, and at that inlet, it
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: was just game on and we My wife doesn't five
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: fish that much, and she just had a ball and
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: she looked over me at one point she's like, you
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: made make a fisherman out of me. At some point. No,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: they stayed with mother in law, so we had us
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: two for three days, no cell phones, and like there
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: was actually some romance and we could have adult conversations.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: You know. The best fisherman ever, my provider. At this lake,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: there's a bear tracks like forty yards from camp. Yeah,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: I mean we're not there when he showed up, and
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: we're there and don't know they were there, like they
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: were probably like a day old when we got there,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: which was the way I'd like to say, good, see
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: what the bear still in it? Well, I like the embarrassment.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Not close. Yeah, alright, man, we saw some cool bears
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: feeding it. We were down fishing silvers one night last
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: week and there's five or six bears in there. Incredible
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: would they take turns? Because he's staking out this little
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: riffle and when a fish would come up the riff,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: we grabbed it and he hauled it up and the
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: bushes to eat and his body who was just like
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: basically taking a bath. Yeah, like cool, it was hot.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: This body's like cooling off into pool and he's like,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: oh my turn and it runs over the riff. I
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: want to grab a fish head in the woods. The
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: next one to come to the riff all and it
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: was we were sitting in a canoe and you could
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: take your my fly rod and basically touch each bank
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: from sitting in the canoe. So it was really tight.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: And they're ultimately six six black bears up there feeding
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: my kid. The kid didn't like it. He can't think
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: the bears are gonna get him. He was a little nervous,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, he's like, the
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: best day ever. You know, that was great. I told him,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: I'm in charge of being worried about bears. I'll tell
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: you when it is time to worry about bears. And
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: these bears have a lot on their mind besides you,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: who's been around more bears or you? You? Yeah, that
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: was cute alright. Next. My name is Hilary Larry Hutcheson
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: and I live in northwest Montana, mother of mother of
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: two cooligans uh teenagers twelve and fourteen. I don't know
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: why I'm bringing up who's got kids? Like, No, it's
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: good to know. I mean, it's important. It's all part
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: of it. You mean, you do what you do for yourself,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: but also for them and and I hope they enjoy
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: it too at some point. And if they don't, you
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: know now, you hope they will. Yeah, yeah, No, it's important.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: It's good to ask, especially with three kids. That's kind
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: of the first thing you ask, right, Yeah, then you
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: know you can complain about your kids with other people. Yeah. Yeah.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: He started it with does your kid eat shirt? No?
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Neither does mine. I spect we have breakfast this morning?
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: There was no complaining about kids at all. Yeah, none.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: So run down, run down, um, you know, lay at
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: me kind of your your professional scope, your professional purview.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: It's not a word I use very often. I don't
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: even know if it was used properly for I'm uh yeah, no,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: So I'm a I'm a fly fishing guide in northwest Montana.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: I guy for glacier anglers. I got to work with
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: kel over here back in the day. Yeah, and uh,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: it's your busy season right now, right it is a
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: busy season, Yeah, for sure. But I'm kind of making
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: the rounds doing some other things right now, even though
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: it's a busy season. Have been there for a really
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: long time, and so now I've kind of tried to
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: make use of that time and other ways and trying
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: to balance it a little bit. But like I just
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: got back from Washington, d C. To talk about how
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: climate change is affecting our fishery, and so right now
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: in Montana, across Montana, you know, we're in hoodal conditions.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: You can't fish after two pm. The river is too low,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: too hot to dry. It's really difficult on the fish.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: And so you know, seeing a lot of different things
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: happen around Montana and we're talking about access. That's kind
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: of one of them. But so I try to, you know,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: squeeze some other things in there during my busy season.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: I have a trip tomorrow. I got to be there
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: six am, get ready for a full day tomorrow. Yeah, yep,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: unless this still laze me, What are you guys gonna
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: go after tomorrow? Tomorrow? What are we fishing for? Target? Yeah?
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: So our fisheries just cutties. There's bullies in there. The
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: bullies are actually doing better this year than I thought
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: they would be. But um, lots of mostly cut throat
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: is kind of what we're fishing for. Yeah, man, native trout. Man, God, yeah, no,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: it's it's that's what people come there for right now.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: You know, it's in West Glacier. People are coming to
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: see the last of the Glaciers, but they're also coming
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: to fish for native West Loope cutthroat trout. It's great,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: and now people are kind of at the point that
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: they can say it by name, like a lot of
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: times it used to be back in the day. People
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: get on your boat and they're like, so what are
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: we fishing for today? You know, now it's like destination
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: fishery they know what they're coming for because it's they
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: want they want to see, they want to catch them
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: and call my first bull trout that guy right there. Wow,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: you got lucky. I mean, I mean Cal got lucky.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: He kind of showed me how to do it. Man,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: All right, Cal, introduce yourself? Is that you are? You? Are?
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: You satisfied with your introduction? But you do but now,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: but you do a TV show? Yeah, yeah, I have
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: a television show. And you got to say the fly shop. Yeah?
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: And I got a fly shop. Yeah yeah, I own
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: a fly shop in my town. Talk about a fly
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: shop first, because it's uh, it's kind of my favorite
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: right now about too, And I took copious notes. Now
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to make them. I don't have
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: a home depot nearby, but I know a bunch of
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: hose no I yeah, no. The fly shop is called
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Larry's fly And supply it's called that it's for Hillary,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: but it's l A. R. Y s. But the reason
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: it's called that is this is the town I grew
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: up in, where my my shop is. And when I
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: was a kid in high school, in sports, we put
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: our first name on the back of our jerseys. One
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: year and somebody made a mistake the printer and put
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: a space in between the HI and l A r y.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: So I went running out in the car, said, Hi,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Larry's all the old guys who come into my shop
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: now they walk into the shop and they're like, Hi Larry. So, yeah,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: that's Larry's Flying Supply. Yeah. I wanted it to be
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Larry's Bait and Tackle, but I figured people would actually come. Yeah,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: so Larry's Flying Supply. It's in Columbia Falls, Montana. And then, um, yeah,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I run trout. That's a good name for a shop.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: I thought long and hard about it. Not really, it's
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: like it's it's a refreshing name for a fly shop.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Well it's the other part two is it's a dude's name, right, Larry.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: So I was waiting for somebody to come in and
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: you know, ask for Larry. And it finally happened this summer.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Finally a guy came in. No, I mean, I wrung.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I didn't recognize him. Most of the time. If anybody
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: in my town, you know, they get a discount and
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: recognize them, it's like their shop two kind of a thing.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: And um, but if they're tourists and maybe they come
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: in there kind of an asshole or something. I'm not
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: going to give him a ascount. So come in. I
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: ring this guy up and he leans forward and he's like, well,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Larry always gives me a discount. And I was like,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: does he Larry? It's Larry's day off? You got me? Yeah,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: that's awesome alright. Anyways, cal oh Ryan Callahan. Uh get
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: a run around with Steve and Yannia on occasion. And
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: I worked with First Light. We make hunting clothes. Um,
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: great clothes. Check him out, and um, I have no kids,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: you know, to say harr pooner in Spanish fiscador, Oh yeah, yeah,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I got got that mixed up with your pinky, thank you,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: thank you, tuscadero. Um, no kids, you know, oh no,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: but calls family. You can't look him up, don't. You
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: can talk about that if you want to talk about it.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: How I tried a dating website and uh, I need
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: to hit a few dates. I went on a couple
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: of dates, first couple of dates in a long time,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: and um, I just kind of came to the conclusion
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: that I got a lot of stuff going on and
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: hunting seasons around the corner. So I should probably just
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: pump the brakes on that situation so you can take
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: the profile down. No, because it's pretty entertaining when you're
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: sitting on the pot. So Yanni, that's that's sexy. I
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: need to see them all trying to figure out what
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: app that is right now? Did cucumber dot com? I'll
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: damn flies. That's how I was gonna introduce myself the
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: guy it's too busy to make Steve flies. I've been
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: shooting my bowl, I've been riding my bike. What are
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: the recording have I been doing? No fishing, chasing the babies,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: chasing babies around? Um, you're cool on that. Okay, Now
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: what I want to talk I want to talk about
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: stream access and I'm trying to find the way to
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: even how to address I forgot about I did that
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: segue earlier, so now trying to I'm trying to get
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: a good way into this. It's gonna help set the scene. Um,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: all right, So when you if anyone anyone's listening to
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: ever walk down like the beach. Okay, and you're walking
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: down a beach, let's say you're even on a lake
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: or on the ocean, and you're walking down the beach
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: and you're walking where people have homes or condominiums or
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: golf courses or whatever on the land, and you're allowed
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: to walk down the beach. Okay, you're doing you're you're
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: doing a type of legal access there where the water
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: is not privately owned. Okay. So landownership on the ocean,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: or you know in the US, typically landownership on lakes, oceans,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: large rivers extends down to the water's edge, and there's
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: varying definitions on what the water's edges, and you can
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: kind of cruise along there. The same way if you
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: go down to the Mississippi River and watch on the
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Mississippi River, you will see recreational vessels, commercial vessels vying
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: their way up and down the river with no regards
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: to who owns the land on the banks. Meaning if
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: I own both sides of the Mississippi River, uh, I
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: have no say over what goes on in that river.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: I can't yell at someone and say, hey, you can't
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: conduct intracontinental commerce up and down this tier river because
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: I happen to own the land on each bank, and
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: I'm declaring the Mississippi River has my own. Now that's
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: the Mississippi. Extend that down. Um, you know, to go
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: smaller and smaller, you have the Ohio River. The Ohio River,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: giant river is a navigable river. Um, if you own
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: land on both sides of the river, you can't impede
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: public access and commercial traffic up and down the river.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: As you shrink down, down, down, now down, you get
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: to sort two streams, rivuletts, creeks where at some point
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: there arises a question of can the public use this
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: waterway or not? Or with even it can happen. We're
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: talking about stream access specifically here, but it can happen
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: with lakes too. Is can the public have access to
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: the littoral zone, the border between land, or the seam
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: where land meets water, or the water itself. I grew
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: up on a lake called Middle Lake in Twin Lake,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Michigan now Middle Lake. Thankfully, I used to hate it
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: phenomenature enough to love it. The lake had a public
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: access boat launch. Okay, a fella could, when I was
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: growing up, walk down the public access boat launch and
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: then walk all the way around the lake, and he
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: could fish and wade and even use the docks along
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: the lake. Because those docks were built out over public water.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Certain people would love to come out and yell at you,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: um and tell you and try to yell at you
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: and say you weren't allowed there. But I knew enough
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: to know that you were, and that was an access issue.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: So just because my family owned property on the lake
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: didn't mean we could tell people they couldn't boat in
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: front of our house or walk down the beach in
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: front of our house. At my fish shack in Alaska,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: I cannot come out and start screaming in the hollering
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: at someone who goes and anchors their skiff in front
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: of my shock on the CoV i'man because that's not
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: my water, that's the people's water. Where this all becomes
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: a debate, where this becomes an issue that's that's being
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: fought out in courts and around the country, is particularly
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: with streams that are kind of on the border of
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: navigable or not um. Even though I try to stay
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: away from getting to Montana centric with all kinds of
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Montana people. Here, let's talk for a minute about Montana
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: and I'll introduce and I'll kind of bring up a
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: creek that I'm familiar with and sort of explain what
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: I'm saying one time that there's a creek in Montaina
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: called Lolo Creek, and it's named after a fella who
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: I believe he was killed by Grizzly, and they're a
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: trapper named Lolo Um. It's buried somewhere around there too,
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: yet killed by Grizzling. His buddy buried him up there.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know that people argue about where he was buried.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: I think someone thought they found where he was buried.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: But he he grew by Lolo. He's a French dude,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: got a mountain, a town named after him, got a
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: creek named after him, got a national forest named after him,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: got a peak named after him. There's no brewery and
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: brewers named after him. Brewery named after another dude named Laramie.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: So a guy named Laramie comes out to Wyoming, a
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: mount would be mountain Man Wyoming. Mountain man comes out
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: to Wyoming, gets killed by Indians. They stuff him under
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: the They chip a hole in the ice of a
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: beaver pond and stuff from down in there. Some of
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: its minds up with a town, river, mountain range. So
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Lolo Creek. One time I hiked over the hiked over
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: the divide of the Bid Roots down into the headwaters
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: of Lolo Creek with a pack raft and in in
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: on National forest Land. Inflated my pack raft during spring
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: runoff and started coming down the river. And I remember
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: that I was in what was regarded initially as a
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: non navigable stretch of that river. So by floating down
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: the river, I was actually trespassing on whose ever land
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: that creek flowed through. Then I magically hit a point
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: at a bridge where that river became legally navigable. I
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: was then allowed I then entered apart region have to
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: be paranoid, and I was then allowed to float through
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: all the ranch land as long as I stayed below
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: what's called high water mark. At that point, it was
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: regarded as legally navigable because in the historic record there
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: is information to suggest that from that point down people
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: used to float timber. They would stick logs in Lolo
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Creek at that point and float them down to the
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: bid Route and use it for commerce. So the state
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: recognizes that Lolo Creek from that point down is a
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: navigable river, meaning once someone has legal access into the river,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: they can wade, fish, float other f things as long
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: as you stay other legal activities as long as you
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: stay below high water mark, meaning you stay below the
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: bank of the river as described by the waters level
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: at peak point. So if it's a drought, you can
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: you can walk in the mud as long as it
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: is where river normally occupies during high water. Yes, and
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: and and the way that gets to find two is
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: a lot of like it's a vegetation change, right, Like
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: you have a definite vegetation change from like stuff that
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: gets has water over the top of us doesn't grow
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: very well. It's something that's really well established. You can
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: kind of tell that different. Yeah, and it also like
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: cut banks and various things. I'm almost done talking, but
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: that's only a little more basic groundwork. Yeah, it would
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: be good to touch on two on where that where
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: the whole definition of navigable navigable comes from, because there's
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: all that's the thing. It's actually more of a federal thing,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: and it's kind of like an accepted federal definition of
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: the waterways. It's actually the states that are more fighting
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: over the land, which is kind of what we're talking to,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: because it's the access of the land. You know, if
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: you're if you're talking about walking down it and not
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: just floating it. Like the Army Corps of engineers have
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: always been the ones that kind of like set the
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: base level for navigable, and some states defined that differently
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: by saying, as long as you're doing anything, it could
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: be commercial, could be fishing, could be hunting, any sort
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: of recreating. But I mean you said it, it's like
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: like Lolo Creek they were pushing logs down, you know.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: But some sort of use like that, you know, deems
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: that navigable. Um. But the Army Corps engineers have been
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: the ones that have kind of like set the definition
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: for that, and then the states take that and kind
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: of the states look at it too as at the
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: time of statehood, did we use it as a highway?
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Did we use it as the main mode of transportation
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: to kind of build our cities and our towns and
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: start to create that commerce. So if you're able to
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: look at it and say that at our time of statehood,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: this is how we built our state. We use this
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: waterway as as the way to actually build our existence here,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: then that's the way that you know they're able to
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: win lawsuits in Utah for example, Okay, I wanta I
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: need to do something real quick. I need to put
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: out before before people get too lost. Put out Why
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: this matters? Why does matters? Is all these definitions are
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: talking about UM pertain to you. If you like to
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: hunt and fish and recreate and float. They pertain to
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: you because there are people out there, wealthy, very well
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: connected people out there who are trying to limit down
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: UM very aggressively, try to limit down where you can
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: go on the water. There are a lot of people
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: who own land and they're like, why in the hell
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: can Joe Schmo come floating down this river and cross
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: in front of my land? That is for me, I
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: don't like seeing it. I wish they weren't able to
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: come down and catch the fish that live in this
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: river or whatever, because it pisces me off. I paid
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: a lot of money, worked hard all my life, and
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: now I got any old asshole can come floating down
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: the river in front of my house. And it gets
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: a little more complicated than that too, like, for instance,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: you might you have people UM who want to sell
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: the idea of exclusive access on rivers, and so they're
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: trying to limit down stream access and access points. That's
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: why this kind of matters. UM. Let's go back real
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: quick to the Montana issue. Montana recognizes by law right,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: it's recognized Montana you have legal stream access. If you
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: can legally get into a river, you're allowed to use it.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: But where is it becoming a thorny issue? So I
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: think it goes back to something you just said, is
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of folks um that are moving
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: into Montana that one don't understand the culture. But then
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: two we're sold that piece of property like you are
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: buying a piece of Montana. And so they're like, well,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: I love that piece three miles of exclusive access, which
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: is they aren't told the laws they're in place right now.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: That explain to that that any you know, asshole can
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: go like you know, fish and floating in wade in
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: front of the regular poor people floating by me included.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: And so like when they when they buy that piece
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: of property and then they see that person, they're like,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: whoa wait a minute. And so I think they're being
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: sold um a bill of goods a little bit that
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: they're not getting told the whole truth when they bought
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: some big figures. In this debate, people who are trying
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: to limit access on things that have always that people
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: have always accessed. We see the names, yeah, I mean
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Charles Schwab, Charles Schwab, Jim Kennedy. I mean those are
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: the two biggest ones. But he's part of the Cox Communications.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: He's got Sailor Lane was the big Sailor lane. Yeah,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: over down and off the Ruby. And so I think
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: the like the these are billionaires that have lots of money,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: and so, you know, like what they tried to do
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: in Montana was first they tried to change our stream
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: access law. Now the state legislature you know, has all
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: sorts of hearings that happened over in Helena, and uh,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: you know, I think medical marijuana was a big one,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: you know, not too long ago, and maybe a hundred
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: and fifty people show up to that medical marijuana. You
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: start talking about when they had a medical marijuana like
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: hearing everybody like like, you know, there's a hundred fifty
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: people to show up. That that's kind of a big deal.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Now only for the people who want to smoke weed
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: and let everybody know they want and want to express
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: their want to express their No one shows up at
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. You say, I don't want people to
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: smoke wheat. There's plenty. There's plenty. Yeah, that's a whole
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: another because pop get way more excited about want the
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: smoke weed than they do about not wanting people. So
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: there's a culture in Montown that would show up to
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: be like, I don't want it's the it's the root
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: of all evil for madness. But so like there's a
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: hundred people of sho up to that where you think
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: there maybe even be more, but a stream access hearing
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: comes up and they can't even hold it where they
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: want to hold it. They have to have it in
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: the old Supreme Court chambers because four hundred and fifty
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: people show up with pitchforks, and now that one it's
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: like a hundred to one where you have a hundred
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: people saying, don't take our access away and one person
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: saying please, you know, we want it for ourselves. Well
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: what's the pitchfork? And the pitchfork is basically saying hell no.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: I mean like there couldn't be anything more saying hell no,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna pitch fork a floater or on a pitchfork.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: I'm like like like like like you know, like when
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: when like the mob shows they didn't actually have a
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: p I'm sorry, yeah, you know you can picture like
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: at Trump rallies have also it became a thing to
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: bring a pitchfork with you, right like people everyone's like
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: you just picture maybe your pitchfork at home. But um
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: and so like five people show up and so I think,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: I just it shows you how much this matters to
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Montana's And so we were able to stop them from
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: changing um any kind of laws. While ago they just
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: like the last legislative session, they had a build it
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: was forward that said anything any place that had an
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: irrigation structure on it was now gonna become awful inness
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: a stream access and so any kind of structure it
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: comes off of a river or off of a stream
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: that we have access to right now. If it was
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: anything was being used for irrigation, then we wouldn't have
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: been able to float it. All. Here. Here's my here's
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: my nightmare right now and nightmbe right now is people
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: aren't understanding what we're saying. All right, there's really good examples.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: That's what I want to talk about because I just
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: want to clarify something. First off, the laws have traditionally
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: been interpreted a certain way for the people. And there
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: are people we named a handful, like like high profile
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: cases would be landowned by Charles Swab, landowned by Cox,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: landowned by other individuals who own land right now, and
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: they're trying to make it. They're trying to say, let's
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: step back, get our lawyers involved, and see if we
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: can find a way to prohibit people from accessing a
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: stream that they can now access. And one way they
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: do that is trying to find legal ways to like
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: legal wrangling methods. So the first thing they try to
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: do is legislatively. The second thing they try to do
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: is just legal wrestling that you're talking about, like changing definitions,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: are challenging definitive, challenging definitions, goes all the way this
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: rim court. I think one of the arguments during when
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: they were in front of the Montana Supreme Court was
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: as one of the questions was do you want to
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: change the constitution of Montana And they said yes, Like
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: that's what they're trying to do is change the constitution,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: which is you do by laws. And so there's the
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: legal side. They've lost the legislative level, they've lost the
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: least the argument in the legislative legislative level. It's like
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: a private property taking that should have never been in
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: the place. It was a taking back in the eighty
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: five when it first got established. So they were saying,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: you're taking my private property by letting Joe Sho float
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: down the river exactly. But if you look at the U.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: S Constitution, the US Constitution has waterways as a means
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: of travel and says every US citizen has right to
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: these thoroughfares. Basically, they're a road as much as the road. Yeah. Again,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: no one's arguing that if I go and buy some
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: land in Missouri in Illinois, that I can shut down
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: commerce on the Mississippi River, right, correct, you wouldn't get far.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: But it's these you know, as you get smaller and
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: smaller and smaller, people starting to be like, come on,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: this is ridiculous. I could throw a rock across this river.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: You shouldn't come through it. And to go back to
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: you and Jimmy and I sitting in the canoe, that
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: I mean you could Jimmy six years old, get underhand
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: rock from bank to bank. We had an incredible time
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: on that river. And there's a lot of people out
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: there saying that would say you should have checked with
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: the landowner. Right, all right, go back though, so they've
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: tried it legislatively, they've tried to legally like and the
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: legally was changing the constitution. Yeah, I mean that's what
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: they have to do. They just saying, like the hell
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: that if that's the case, let's just rewrite the whole thing.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And so they've lost both those and so now they're
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: trying to um change the Supreme Court in Montana. So
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: if you can't win at a legislative label level, which
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: is basically the people right, you can't do it at
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: uh at the court level. Now they're trying to do
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: at the supreme like, at the at the highest level,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: so that they can get different judges in there that
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: will interpret the law in a different way and so
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: that we uh um, something we have now doesn't give
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: us the protections that we have on stream access. So
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: you know, and when you think about the billions of
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: dollars they have and these guys they don't. They're not
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: used to losing, right, and so they're not going away.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: And so like right now in Montana, there's a Supreme
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Court race that is vitally important to this whole issue.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Meaning what well, if I mean it's so like I
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: think I can't think it's five to last time that
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: this was decided as Montana Supreme Court. So this would
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: make it four three if this person got in, and
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: that takes one more and all of a sudden we're tied.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: And there are people who be sympathetic to the landowner side. Yes, Hillary,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: here's lots of money or at stake. Two, here's a
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: challenge for you. Give act like you're a land or
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: wealthy landlord. Give give me his argument. Ah, I agree
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: with the real estate part of it. When you want
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: that chunk of Americana for the right reasons, Okay, let's
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: just say, you know you want to get your family
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: out there. GE's beautiful. You've worked really hard all your life.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: You know this, you saved up and you you really
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: want that kind of chunk to pass on to future generations. Right,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: So those are reasons who want to be a landowner
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: in Montana. And you're an honest, hard working kind of person,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: and you're going to be a steward of the land
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: and you're going to take care of it and you're
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: not going to even like develop it in rape and pillage. Right,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: this is your plan. So you go look and you
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: find the perfect spot and God, a river runs through it.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: You know, awesome, this is the spot, Marge. We're gonna
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: move out here, We're gonna bring all the grandkids, are
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: gonna come for Christmas. Is gonna be amazing. And then
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: you buy it. You get sold this, this piece of Americana,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: this whole view that you've wanted, you've worked hard all
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: your life. And you get out there and ship there's
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Hillary standing out in the middle of it, looking like
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: a fish hippie down there to screaming teenage exactly at
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: all of their homies. Yeah, so you know, and you're like,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: this isn't what I signed up for, This isn't what
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: I want. What I want, And then you're and you're
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: thinking that the rivers are property. And then the other
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: thing that you start to worry about is, oh, my gosh,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: what if somebody gets hurt. I'm going to get sued
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: if somebody gets hurt down there, were somebody drowns down there.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: What if, um, you know, what if I want to
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: fish there later tonight and and they've completely you know,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: swarmouth all my fish. Um, what if they make a mess.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: What if they take a dump behind that tree? What
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: if they all of these things, and you're like, this
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: isn't fair. That's my backyard, right, my personal opinion about
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: some of them. No, no now, I'm out of it.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: I'm of the lead role, no now now or about
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: that right. So that's the small scale, you know, person
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: who just kind of wants their own chunk for themselves. Um.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: But the bigger problem also is those small pieces and
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: those people add up to bigger picture of like larger
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: landowner opportunities. Um. And I'm not saying that just the
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: smaller owner is is Okay, I fighting for stream access,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: you know, for the public, um. But all of those
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: small arguments, for those small five acre plots that have
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: little bits of river running through, kind of all our
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: voices that can add together and can can actually hurt
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: everybody's access and everybody's use. So my argument, um is
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: not just about access because pretty much everywhere you go
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: you have access, meaning you can access the river. It's
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: also use. So it's the way we use the river.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Once you access it in a public place, then you
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: can walk all the way up and down it below
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: high water mark, and then it's our use. We need
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: to be able to fish it, we need to be
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: able to float through we need to be able to
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: anchor up. We need to be able to have an
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: amazing shore lunch and all of the activities that I
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: experience and that I do on public lands. You know,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: we see as for the entire population for everybody to
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: be able to do. Now, what happens when we all
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: do that together. It has to be out of respect, right,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: So you have to respect the land. You have to
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: respect the private land. So if you've got private landowners
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: on either side, maybe it's the same one who owns
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: both sides, like you were describing before. And this water
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: runs through and we have public access at a certain point,
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: but we've walked down or floated down, fish down, and
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: we're going through their private property. Um, the water is
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: ours as a public to use. The fish are all
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: of ours to share and enjoy, the rocks that are
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: tumbling and moving all the time, or all of ours
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: those stream beds. And I want to I want to
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: point I want to interrupt real quick. Just point out
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: a thing. The water is owned by the state. The
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: state doesn't relinquish the water as it flows through your property.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: The fish are owned by the state, and the state
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: generally will not relinquish the rights of the fish that
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: are living in the water that they own that's flowing
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: across your problem exactly. So now if you're the if
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: you're the private landowner, and you recognize all of these things,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: then we have a great partnership, right because you've still
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: got your land, and then we as fish are and recreators,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: are going to respect it. That means, no, you guys,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: don't run your dogs up in there. Don't let your
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: dogs go running up above high water mark. Don't make
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: a big camp. You know that's going to potentially have
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: um wildfires that could go up into their property unless
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: you're really certain that you're in an actual legal spot.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: You know, be really respectful of those private landowners as
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: we use what is our right. You know, it is
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: our right to use this waterway and um and have
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: a blast. But god, you know, I mean, we have
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: to really respect ourselves by respecting those private landown Yeah.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: And you know, it's unfortunate because I hate to see
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: people mess it up. And and it's one of the
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: things I see happen is is we're floating along, you know,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: and if I'm guiding and and I've been guiding the
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: same stretch of river for a long time, you know,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: up in the middle Fork in nayak As, you know
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: cal if If you haven't been there in a little
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: while and you float now you see these big private
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: property signs that there never were before because there are
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: sections of private property along there, and it's always in
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: private um in a couple of these stretches, you know.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: But we've always had the ability to float through. We
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: still can. But when you see those private property signs,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: it's like, oh, shoot, somebody must have messed up. One
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: of us must have gone up there and pick tuckleberries
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: on their property. One of us must have like run
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: our dogs up there. Something happened to piss those guys off.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Or maybe it's just fear. Maybe they are new landowners
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: there and maybe they're afraid that we're going to So
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: it's important for two reasons. We now can make it
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: right by making sure that we do the right thing now,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: and then also be telling people that this is a partnership.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: This you know, you've got your land you worked hard for,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: you know you own it. We all together own this
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: um water, in this fish and in the rocks, and
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: we can work together on it. I sound like a
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: diplomat but I'm not a mid know. I appreciate what
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: you're saying. I think it's important to point out what
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I when I used to butt up most sort of
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: my crash courses, stream access and my crash course and
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: landowner relationships came when we used to do a lot
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: of floating for some geese. Okay, and remember early on
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: when we got interested in floating rivers for ducks and geese,
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: like rivers that flew up through ranch land. I called trust.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: We were gonna get away from Montana real quick here,
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: but this happened in Montana. I called fishing game. And uh,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: I was saying, Okay, so fella can float the bitter route.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: I understand. Um, we're gonna float down and jump shoot
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: pass shoot for ducks and geese. What are kind of
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: things that were up against you know, like for instance,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: and where I grew up in Michigan. I can't remember
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: what it is, but you can't fire a gun within
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: four fifty or some odd feet of a structure on
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: someone's land. So even if you're on your own land,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: if your if your neighbor's place is within that distance
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: of your border, you gotta get written permission from that
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: neighbor before you fire off a firearm, no matter what
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: direction you're aimed at. I was just curious, is there
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: anything like that going on you? Yeah? I was told
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: there that the only problem I could foresee is that
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: you hit someone's hog use. If you hit someone's house
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: with your shotgun, that's negligence, and that is that that's
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: a problem for you. But no, go for it. So
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: we start doing a lot of floating for ducks and geese.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: And one day we're putting in at illegal access on
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: East Gallaton fixing the float through there, and a guy
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: comes racing up to tell us that we had gotten ourselves.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: He was the landowner, and to explain that we were
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: in a catch twenty two. He was saying, uh, I'm
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: watching you when you hit a duck down and it
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: lands on my land. If you go to get that duck,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get you for trespassing. If you don't go
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: and get that duck, I'm gonna call in for wanting waste.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: So watch it. And we always are real careful about
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: not tipping ducks around the guy's property. But that that
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: was the first time I ever started really getting into
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: that that use thing. And again for him. Imagine he's
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: motivated by a handful of things. Maybe the guy likes
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: to hunt ducks, and just on a purely selfish level,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: he just kind of piste off that at uh, that
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: he can't have this private supply of ducks. Maybe at
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: another level, he's piste off for watching guys sending ducks
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: sailing off into his alf alpha field and they don't
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: go pick it up because they're afraid to go trespass.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: And he sees like some like real wasteful activity and
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: might wonder why the hell would you float such a
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: small river that you can't go retrieve birds off of
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: without trespassing on my land and then leave like cripple
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: ducks laying around. It's outrageous just because someone is I
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: just pointing out, like, like, you know, just because almost
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: opposed to stream axis might be based off of various things.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: I don't want to to sell it as this like
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: rich versus poor kind of thing, which is tempting to
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: do when so many of the most vocal critics of
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: stream access happened to be billionaires who are coming from
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: out other cultures into a place and being a little
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: bit baffled by what goes on a lot of the
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: helme owners don't know. I mean, that's that's a bottom line.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: A lot of them don't know that it's not theirs.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: They bought this and they don't know. And I've spent
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: a lot of time in Utah with my friends I
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: fish with their kind of going door to door even
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: though we know we're going in a legal spot, and
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: that spots, you know, the provo and the we were
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: have just been pushed down because so much public use
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: has been locked down. And so now when there is
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: a public spot and you go in there, you talk
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: to the homeowners around it just to chit chat with
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: them and see if they know what's up. They know
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: the laws, and every time it's appealed, then everybody gets confused.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: And you know, in a new one mile piece of
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: water opens and then that gets appealed and shut down
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: and open, there's a lot of confusion that goes on
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: around it. Like you were just saying with the show,
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: you know, people are like, ah, what's going on? Which
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: is kind of why back Country Hunters and Anglers is
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: is really focused right now on putting together one place
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: where everybody can go to learn about what laws are
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: applicable where you live. Yeah, which is a great resource.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: And and sego because what's that river in Virginia Jackson? Okay,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: this is an interesting river. Now I'm gonna lay. I'm
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: gonna lay some groundward. You tell me when I mess up,
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: and I'll tell you when I run out of stuff.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: I know about. Jackson River in Virginia was a warm
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: water river, warmwater stream. They put in a big tailwater damn. Correct,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: putting a damn that created a tailwater. Putting a dam
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: that created a tailwater. What a tailwater is is where
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: you build a dam and you be a big empoundment
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: of water. Now, when you impound water, have a lake,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: the water at the surface tends to be much warmer
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: than the water down below, as is known to anyone
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: who's ever been swimming and dived down to the bottom
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: and it gets real cold all of a sudden. A
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: tailwater instead of drawing, instead of releasing water from the surface,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: which is like what a beaver pond does right where
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: the water flows off the top of the beaver dam,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: a tailwater releases water from the bottom of the water
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: column and it sends out cold water. What a tailwater
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: does by sending out all that cold water. As you
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: create a cold water fishery, and it allows you to
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: have cold it allows cold water species to flourish. Trout
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: like cold well oxygenated water. Tailwaters generally are great for
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: trout because you're sending continuous cold water year round. It's
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: not sun baked and all heated up. And you can
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: have places like the White River in Arkansas the Jackson
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: River in Virginia that will support great trout fisheries because
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: the fish are always getting nice cold water no matter
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: how hot the weather is. This river had never had
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: a stream access debate. There's just a river people could use.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: The tailwater came in and also became a destination trout fishery.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Landowners along the river we're like, man, it would be
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: sweet if only I could fish east trout. Boomer that
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: all these other mofos can come down here floating and fishing.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: They got to digging around and realize that when King
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: George the First and King George the Second did some
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: land grants back in the old timey times, they'd be like, man,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: you're a great guy. You've always done great service for us.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Here's a gigantic hunkle land this is pre us, all right,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: this is when we were a colony. They would that
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: when he granted, When King George granted chunks of land,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: this sort of initiated the idea of private property ownership
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: in the US. He pointed out that you own the
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: whole damn river and everything that's in it. So based
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: on that, now that there's something in there that I
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: really want, based on that, we're gonna get together and
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: make a play to say no one can access the
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Jackson River of Virginia except private landowners along the banks.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: It's so complicated, if I understand, it's correct that the
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: fishing game in Virginia. Rather than trying to clarify the
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: issue it's so complicated, they just alert anglers and floaters
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: to the fact that you may encounter landowners who are
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: making certain claims. We don't know what to tell you.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: Break that all down well, and I think it's it's gone.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: Like there's been a lawsuit over it. There wasn't actually
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: a kayaker who got like busted by one of these
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: landowners and they said he was trespassing. So they there
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: was a lawsuit over that to try to find him
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: for trespassing. And uh, this is only gone from what
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: I know, it's only gone to one level um of judge,
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: and that judge side with a landowner. And so right now,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: like that area is closed down to fishing to float
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: into anything. And so like to me, though, Steve, like
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: that's that's what we were trying to get away from
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: when we created America, right And like when you think
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: about like the um, like we established this country to
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: where the water belong to the people, in the wildlife
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: belonging the people, you've already you know, we've talked about
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: that earlier, and you know, the States kind of as
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: our manager of that. And and to me, that flies
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: in the face of that. And so I I think
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: if somebody challenges that up to a higher court, I
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: think we will win that one, because when I start
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: hearing King's grants from the sevent hundreds, I'm like, that's
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: what we revolted against, you know, like that stuff doesn't
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: matter anymore because it did then, like the East Coast
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: would look a lot different than it does right now.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: GG doesn't get to do that. So I like, like,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: to me, I think that one will be challenged and
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: will win. Um. But right now it's definitely a confusing piece. Yeah,
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: as far as the the way, you know, the the
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: European system in the American system. So the European system
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: um goes back to like think of Robin Hood, right,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: Robin Hood was a was a poacher because the king
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: on the wildlife and Robin Hood would go out and
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: hunt and you could get in a lot of trouble
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: for hunting in England and other places because wildlife only
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: belonged to wealthy landowners. The US is a direct repudiation
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: of that system, where we have an excellent arguably and
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not just saying this because I'm American. We have
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: the best wildlife management system in the world, which has
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: been proven again and again um to to work very well.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: And we have what's called public ownership of wildlife. Wildlife
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: is held in a public domain, meaning that if a
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: trout is swimming in the river, it doesn't matter whose
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: land he crosses. He remains the property of the people
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: of that state, the public. Um. If an elk jumps,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: If an elk is in Yelloso National Park and he
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: jumps a fence and goes onto National forest land, and
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: he jumps another fence and goes onto BLM land, and
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: he jumps another fence and goes onto a private ranch,
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: and jumps another fence and becomes into a municipal park.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: Throughout all of his wanderings, he has remained a possession
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: of the people. Now, you might be able to control
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: access to that elk, but you never take ownership of
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: that elk. So one thing that's at stake when we're
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: talking about access to waterways is it's a way. It's
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: a tool by which people can come in and try
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: to subvert our system and try to take ownership of
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: wildlife resources that belong to the American people. It's just
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: it's just one of many tools in a tool bag
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: that you can use to claim something that traditionally is
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: not yours to claim. No, tell you about another river, um,
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's a good story from a
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: Missouri river, right, not the Missouri River, but ver I
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: think like the story of Missouri is about all their rivers.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think you know a lot of people
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: think that this is just a Western issue. Yeah, That's
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: what I'm trying to get away from because growing up
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: in Michigan, I remember one time when I used to
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: run mink traps. I was at Cedar Creek where one
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: twenty across the Cedar Creek and Cedar Creeks a navigable river,
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: and I remember having uh D n R officer, like
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: a basically a fishing game officer come and and tell
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: me that I had to pull my mink traps on
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: the upstream side of the bridge because downstream side was
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: Manaestee National Forest, upstream was private ownership. I would jump
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: into the creek on the Mannaestee National Forest side, go
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: underneath the bridge and waiters, and then set mink traps
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: in the water on the upstream side, which I knew
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: to be legal. He was confused about the issue and
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: told me that I wasn't actually allowed to do that.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: I had to stay on the downstream side, even though
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: it's a legally navigable river. So was my point there.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: I think you're trying to say it is not a
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: Western issue. So here I am a dude traviling mink
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: in Michigan having the same conversation. But for some reason,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: it's become like I don't know why it's become a West,
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: why it's dan why it's perceived as the Western issue.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: When we got like Virginia and we got what you're
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: gonna talk about, aream. And they've tried to do the
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: same thing they've tried to do in Montana is changed
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: the laws. And so in Missouri you do have the
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: right to wait up to the high water mark in Missouri.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: And so there's been two attempts now at their legislature
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: to repeal that and change the law. And so the
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: people once again in Missouri and show me state stood
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: up and said no, not here. And so that said,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: these folks aren't going away, you know, I mean, they
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: want to kind of take this this stuff for themselves.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: And so I think that's one of the things, is
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: like this vigilance, like I mean it. And and we've
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: talked about this before on on the whole public lands
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: divester issue, is that we're a very young country and
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: there's been folks trying to take things for themselves ever
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: since Roosevelt kind of, you know, started this whole idea
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: of the land belongs to the people, and and there
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: was stuff that happened before that too. But the reason
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: we still have public lands and public hands, and the
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: reason we still have stream access is because countless people
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: have stepped up and said that's not, that's not what
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: America is. America was established in a different play us
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: or in a different way, just how you described it.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: How it's different from the European model, right, and so um,
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: these are these things will continue to happen. But in Missouri, Yeah,
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: I mean it's that there's definitely an attack on um
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: uh stream access and that we're able to push it down,
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean it's not gonna come back again.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: Cal And what do you think about all this? I
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: got a case in New York State. Oh okay, Uh,
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: this information comes from by a beautiful, young, smart attorney
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: in Helena, Montana. Used the date. Yes, what happened there? Like?
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: Why did that relationship network? Oh? Like I said, we
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: just uh, you know, grew apart. You know, part of
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: it is this bird dog that she didn't train to
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: hunt birds. And I just can't wrap my head around that.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: And that caused the rift of your relationship. Yeah, things
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: can kind of separated from there. Uh And you called
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: her up and and or send her some sort of message. Yeah, yea,
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: so she did some some bird dogging she married now, Uh, no, no,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: she is not what do you guys, taxes or any innuendo.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: Oh but that's just kind of her sounse of humor.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: There's no chance that's going to get going again. You know,
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think I've burned that bridge
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: down at right now, let's think about that. Yeah, she's
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: an environmental lawyer. Yeah, she wants all of it. Yeah,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: And what's the get what's what's what's the New York
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: state deal? Okay? So um two thousand thirteen, Access was
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: challenging New York um and a man's canoeing down a
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: navigable waterway, yes, to portage his canoe. That portage takes
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: him across land that is posted for no trespassing landowner
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: because of a beaver dam or whatever. Yeah, log in
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: the river some sort of obstruction, and uh so the
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: landowner sues or you know, uh tries to dig this
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: guy for no trespassing. He brings up the navigable wall
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: a way in the U. S. Constitution says that you
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: can use uh land even above the high water mark
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: to get around obstructions to navigate this thoroughfare. Essentially, two
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: thousand sixteen, uh, New York Supreme Court declines to rule. So,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: uh what happens is since they declined to rule. Um,
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: the you know, the predetermined laws stand, which means you
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: can trustpass on somebody's land to continue your travel. If
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: a log or be ver damn or whatever, you can't
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: hang out there, you just have to keep going. Correct. Yeah,
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: I read this morning that portaging because it's it falls
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: under something you would do while boating, hunting, fishing, whatever,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: that would then be encompassed in using that waterway, and
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: so it would fall under legal use. And the right
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: to navigate includes the necessary incidental use of bed and banks. Oh, now,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: Yahn's explain like when when you're working, because every state
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: is different, explain the situation in Colorado is that where
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: there's weird ship like you can float down the river,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: but you can't set the anchor. Yeah, explain that that's weird. Well,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: And I think that's where it does get really tricky
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: on which I was talking about earlier, is because like
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: they have the navigable waterway things figure it out where
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: they're like they can't put a fence across it and
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: keep it from going down it. But Colorado, the state
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: has chosen to say that the land underneath is owned
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: by somebody and not by the people and so if
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: you own just the water z owned by the people,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: not the not the vessel holding the water exactly, even
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: though all these rocks are tumbling down. Yeah, I've never
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: thought about that. You made a good point. It's like
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: that river bed is just constantly changing, like your rock
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: is on the neighbor's rock or the neighbor's property, you
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: know everything. I'd be out there being like something nothing
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: rolled down to your land. Yeah. So no man, we uh,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have to do that
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: guy in here in Montana, but in Colorado. I mean
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: there's this tricky do with your raft is you're pulling
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: behind you would know every single rock that had just
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: enough like reverse current where you could pull in and
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: you had to re ray everybody. You get way too far, sorry,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: explain the problem. Oh yeah, So you're floating down these
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: rivers that you want to fish, and it's private land
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: on both sides, both sides. And the rivers, uh, the
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: Eagle River, the Calbado rivers, they're going fork. It doesn't
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: matter anyone. You're floating in that state, big famous rivers. Yeah,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: if you're going through private property, you cannot anchor you
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: can't pull over. Can't wait, you can't wait. You can't
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: get out of the boat. You can't even stick your
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: boat onto a rock to stop. You can't push pole,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: you can't push pole, you can't grab willow branches, hold
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: yourself in place. Nothing, Just you in the water. That's it.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: That's the only So you can't beat up on a
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: rock that's out in the river because you're using that
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: dudes rock. Yeah, So what we would learn how to
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: do is you'd find just the right rock that had
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: just enough eddie for like twelve and a half foot
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: super puma, and you pull in there and you'd have
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: the guy actually in the back looking down and be like,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: let me know if I'm bumping that thing, and you'd
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: sit there and like, just do these little feather strokes
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: and drop your awards underneath your knees. Tie tie tie
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: tie tie. Put him back a couple of feather strokes,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: tie tie tie tie tie. He took up on the bank,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: and there'd be the dude on the a TV just
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: sitting there watching, just waiting, and he knew who I was,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, he just he'd had a cell
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: phone and be calling the shop, you know, on that
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: rock again, just passing. You pee off the boat. They
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: have to pee off the boat. Oh, they can't climb
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: up on the bank to pee. You know, we were
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: when we were fished this week. Our our boat was
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: so filthy. I had my boy peeing right into the boat.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: I was like, hurt anything now, man, it's a boastal
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: full of slide and drink some more water we clean
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: to clean this thing. First, I had them peeing over
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: the edge, but it was so way be ap phrasing
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: and fall over and I had a pet at the bucket.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: That's them. I just go ahead. There's a lot of
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: very defined systems up there for the fish shack is
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: you well know. And whenever one of those systems like
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: falls apart, it's so apparent as to why you bring
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: x amount of buckets a cooler, Yeah, scrub brush out
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: of stuff like that. Was one time he was whizzing
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: in the boat and Callian picked up all the basketfull
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: of perforated basket full of shrimp tails and moved it
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: up to a seat, which all right, we had about
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: three inches of muddy guts blood water in the bottom
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: of the boat. And He's like, hold on, I gotta
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: bean Steve and I are cleaning trimp right there, and
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: it's a laundry basket full of the shrimp knots and
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: laundry basket, a perforated basket. It's like, yeah, it was
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: not they sell them. It's a fishing basket. He found
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: that one beach comb. Oh nice, but yeah, it looks
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: just like a laundry basket. You have never found basket that. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: six times more expensive. He whizzes into the six inches
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: of filth and killian, then picks up the trenches like, oh,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: that's what's gonna gross you out. It's not that it's
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: bull of rotten. You make concessions. Okay, So why was
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: I talking about Colorado? You can get on the bank,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: can't get on the bank. I was gonna say. It's
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: like it was always just like a minor issue on
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: most rivers. But as soon as like the Blue River
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: below Green Mountain Reservoir, giant private ranch down below, there
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: gets a bunch of giant fish stocked into it that
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: are fed and like words, getting how are they stocking
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: and feeding fish? The Gunnison's like that too, the upper Well,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: so how do they know the fish are gonna get away?
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: Like in Texas they got that shipped down. I don't
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: think they care. I think this is my primary stock.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: They can you can feed fish in the river. M hmm.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know about all plays. I
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: don't know if you can do that in Montana or
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: even here. And I've never heard of that. No, the
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: bucket brigade kind of thing in Glacier National Park is
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: largely frowned upon. Do not plant fish in my zone. Yeah,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: it's a bummer on the you know, on the first
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: time ever you're fishing the Gun of San, I expected
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: to be a madhouse. I was down there visiting some
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: shops for work, swunging to fish with the old yellow dog,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: and um, who's that? We literally my dog guy never
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: heard of No, no, no, And uh, I'm fishing way
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: and everything's great. And then I catched this fish that
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: is so obviously a like a pen raised, you know,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: a super round nose, nubby little stock er. Look, pellet head, yeah,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: pellet fed. You know, I'm just like, what is you know,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: I kind of killed that stuff. This guy or his
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: manager on this ranch. Sometimes when they were trying to
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: like push back a little bit, they would know like
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: because you can only floated at certain levels, you know,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: before you just because there's wing damns, all all these
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: river improvements to make pools, and so when it got
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: too low, just too dangerous to drop the boats over
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: these damns. But so they would know, like, Okay, the
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: river's coming up, they're gonna release water's gonna be a
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: bunch of fish, a bunch of guys coming down to
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: fish it. They would just power feed these fish for
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: days ahead of time, so that when you floated through there,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: I mean you can see them all sitting on giant,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: totally full bellies. You're kidding The story I like, is
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: this dude, Uh, this was in the back Country Hunters magazine.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: This dude was selling what state was this in? That
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: he was selling exclusive access on a stream? So it's
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: like a developer who's selling exclusive access on the street.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: That was that was Virginia. That's Virginia. No it's not.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: I know that was happening in Virginia too, but maybe
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: it was Utah. I should know that. I felt like
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: that was on. Wasn't it the provo or a tributary
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: to the Provoeah? For sure? He yeah, so he sells
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: he's got a developer gets his chunk of property and
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: he tells people you're buying exclusive access. It turns out
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: it's not. It's public access. So the people get pissed
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: at the guy they bought the land from. The guy
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: that bought the land from turns the developer turns around
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: and sues some other dude for having messed this whole
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: thing up. I mean, that's the whole thing Victory Ranch
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: up in Utah. I mean it's a development, right, so
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: this is the place. Well, um, I think one of
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: the main things is if it's a development, you aren't
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: doing your own rece arch necessarily on that area. It's
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: almost like in a lot of these kind of large subdivisions,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: you have these amenities that are just described to you, right,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: and that kind of to use one of the amenities.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: If you're doing your own research, you look into what
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: river you're buying your property on. But if it's a
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: big subdivision, you just know it's kind of one of
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: the things. Like, for example, we also there's this like
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: big orchard over here, and like we're gonna put like
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: this big group swimming pool in the middle, and now
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: there's a river here. There's all these amenities, right, And
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: so I think a lot of these people, um, we're
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: kind of told that this is just one of those
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: basic amenities that you get as part of it, and
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: that was sold to them as exclusive um access in use.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: But then when it turned out not to be, then
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: they're like, well, let's make it so you know, and
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: they're like, we can't give you your money back. Yeah,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: And so they start to find out it's not. And
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: it wasn't like just going quietly into the night. It
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: was like, okay, well we're going to fight for to
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: make it as we said otherwise, what how much value
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: is that reducing and whatever it was that they purchased.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: How much of that was because of the river? Right?
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: So they can't give them money back. They already bought,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: they already have their landscaping out, they already whatever. And
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: so now instead of just saying, actually, we messed up,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: they're going let's change the law and let's make it yours.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: What percent now, as a fishing guide, what percent of
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: the of time do you spend in your in your
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: terrain where you guide? What percent of time do you
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: spend fishing water that is flown through private land? Well
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: a hundred percent of the water on which I guide
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: is public access, public use. So it's the middle fork
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: in the north fork of the Flathead. But River Left
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: on the middle fork, for example, has a significant amount
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: of UM privately owned property. Can so River left is
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: as the river's flowing, everything on your left. So even
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: if you spilp your boat around. Yeah, so if you're
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: looking upstream, river or left is going to be on
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: the other side. The river left is always left side
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: as the river flows. River right is always right side
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: as the river flows. So on the middle fork of
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: the Flathead, UM River right ten feet above high water
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: mark technically is Glacier National Park, So that's all national park.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: So you know that that's all public land. You just
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: know that's what the boundary is as a professional guide
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: and hopefully as a as a private floater as well.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: It's not a permitted river, so anybody can float it.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: And then River Left is going to be UM, state, federal,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: and private land. So it's split up just in different
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: zones based on kind of UM you know, state ownership
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: and it's for service and it's also privately owned and
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: it's important to own Montana. The land owner does not
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: have the responsibility to post that land. It's the user,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: the person that has the responsibility to know where those
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: boundaries are and where you are as a human being.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: That's good to get into right there. I want to
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: talk about that, and that's that's complicated, but but it's
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: that's huge. That's what I was saying before. It's our
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: sponsibility as the user to be well educated. Otherwise we're
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: going to get those big bright orange reminders on the trees.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: And I hate floating down the river guiding my people,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: and that's what they see, you know, private property. Keep out, dada,
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: because if those are gone, it looks like this, you know,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: beautiful place that we all know and love and you
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: take your photo and you know, carry on and it's
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: great and you point out and you you believe that
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of those signs are there because of us
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: public users not respecting. Yeah, I think it's either and
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen it. I haven't seen like disrespect really
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: on the river where I work. I think I think
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: locals are great. I think the visitors are great. I
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: think the visitors do a lot of homework. Um, the
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: biggest way they could do that is by going with guides,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: you know, by by having somebody show you how to
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: do it, and maybe next time that they they'll come
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: back they can do it themselves. But I think a
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: lot of it is, um, somebody either did something wrong,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: or there's the fear that something bad will happen there.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: The private landowner is afraid that, um, somebody's going to
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: come up on their property and something bad is going
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: to happen, or maybe which isn't unreasonable. Yeah, they're they're
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: gonna somebody's gonna get hurt in there, sue them, or
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: else maybe they'll break into their house. I mean, people
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: love to have that back back deck open, you know,
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: facing the river all the time. Somebody gonna come in
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: and steal my ship, you know. Can I let my
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: kids play out there and there's all these people coming by?
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: Is that even safe? You know? I Mean, it's that
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: typical fear in America that we have. And it's hard
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: for me, just because I've grown up there and I've
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: worked there for so long to see that change happen.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: And it's like, oh man, no, it's just me. Hey,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: you know, it's cool. I'm not gonna hurt you, you know.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: And so I think that's just kind of one of
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: those growing things we see in America as of fear
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: and love for that to stop, and we have to
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: be the ones to stop it just by being really
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: respectful of those private landowners for sure. So to answer
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: your question about like who's UM when when I guide
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: as a private property is it? Is it UM, state
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: or federal? It's really cool that it's a mix. Like
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: caw said, it's up to us to know the rules
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: and where I work. It's really cool that it's a mixed.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: Now on the north fork of the Flathead, the boundary
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: goes right smack dab down the river. Um, in the
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: middle of the river, there's a line cheapest part of
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: the deepest channel exactly. So UM, if you're floating the river,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: river right is going to be that mix of state,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: federal and private land. River left is going to be
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: all park side Glacier National Park. So the middle fork
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: in the north Fork form the two boundaries. The boundaries
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: right smack dab down the middle. So that's why we
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: tell everybody to get as the river's administered the same way.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: Or you actually can't fish one side of the river
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: without a certain you you can fish both sides. It's
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: it's hysterical because that's why. UM, in Glacier National Park
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: you don't have to have a fishing license. Actually you
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: can fish in the park without a license and it's free. UM,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: but we make everybody get it because the same thing,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: like you were talking about the ducks, you catch a
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: fish and then on on park side where it's free
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: or whatever, and it swims over to the other side,
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: and like you land it on the other side, you know,
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: up up for debate a little bit. So everybody gets
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: everybody has to get a fishing license, and we try
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: not to park. You don't really camp River left on
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: park side because you don't have a backcountry permit. Always
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: camp River right where it's for service, because you know,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: that's a four service camp. Even as if it's not
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: an established camp, you can camp there without it being
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: an actual campground. But it's got to be on the
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: public land. Yeah. Within the fish small mouth uh and
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of other things. On the Delaware River, which
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: is a wild and scenic you know, designated wild and
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: scenic river flows between in the stretch. I used to
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: fish flows between New York and Pennsylvania. UM, wildfish slam
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: offs be caught uh over the years, nine different species
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: of fish out of that river. Um. But anyways, those
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: two states came up with a collaborative agreement, which is
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: pretty nice. I wish it happened more where you could
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: hold a license from either side and fish both sides.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: And they came together and made a a regulation with
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: bag limits and methods and seasons that made it so
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: that river was jointly managed in a way that made
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: sense to people. When I used to live in Sue
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: Sat Marie, Michigan, you have a gigantic river to St.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: Mary's River, which one side of the US, one side Canada,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: and there was a line running down there. It was
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: not easily discernible, and the seasons and structures were very
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: different on each side of that line. It would create
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of confusion for people out in boats. There's
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: a story of Buddy Mine, a guy who works at
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: Bench Made was telling me about a bass fisherman who's
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: in a tournament and in the Mississippi River and it's
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: very confused, like what states waters here and he's where
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: it's several different states come together and one of the
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: states you can't high grade fish, meaning if you catch
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: a fish and put in your live well, and you
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: gotta limit, and you catch a bigger one, you turn
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: one of those fish out and put the bigger one in.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: So unknowingly he crossed the line and high graded a
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: fish in another state and and broke a state law
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: and wand up losing some absurd amount of money because
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: it's a fishing tournament over that little differentiation there, and
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: it does get a little bit complicated. Um. I was
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: always glad, like I thought it was cool that Delaware
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: did that, But that's usually not the case. You can
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: get some really confused ship. When one side of a
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: bank is owned, you know it's managing somewhere in the
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: R side's managing a different way to the Colorado point.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: I was just trying to think about what it would
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: be like to not be able to touch the rocks
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: in the beds and stuff like that. Where where I
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: guide because I'm out of the boat all the time,
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: not just you know, to fish it right, you know,
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: sometimes we walk the boat sometimes, you know, it gets
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: so skinny. I don't want to use my oars and
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: I don't want to bang rocks or whatever, and so
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: you know, I'll move the boat myself. But but also
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: because being stewards of that river means we have an
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: awful lot of things we have to do to help
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: we pick up a ton of trash, for example, you know,
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: get people out of a jam, Like I'm pushing boats
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: off you remember all the hand like all these people
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: coming down they get stuck on rocks themselves. You're pushing
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: them off rocks all the time and helping people out,
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: giving people directions. You know what happens if you see trash,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: you're not allowed to go pick it up because you're
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: afraid to get in trouble, you know. I mean, it
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: just seems weird to not be able to be an
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: actual steward of the entire piece. That everybody's got this
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: own little bubble that they go into. It's nothing, it's
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: not the right way where I'm at. I'm at it
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: with some of your things. I can totally, I totally
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: understand the other side of the issue. I can. I
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: understand it because, like I said, I grew up on
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: a lake that had public access. I own a place
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: now that has uh it's on public access waterway. I
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: understand both sides of the issue because I understand the
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: feeling of man, does it suck that on the lake
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: where I grew up. When the blue gills come up
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: on the beds in early June, they get hammered by
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: dudes who walked down that access. I understand, Dan, you'd
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: be like, man, I should call up and do a
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: little sniffing around and find a way to make it
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: that they can't come and do that, because people are
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: just like that. I think that we're like that over
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: fishing game, where I imagined that the earliest wars we
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: fought as our species, definitely the earliest wars we fought
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: in this country were wars that we fought over access
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: to fishing game, who's hunting grounds or who when you
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: go When Lewis and Clark were traveling through traveling across
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: the West, a lot of the places where they recorded
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: the greatest concentrations of game turned out to be uh
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: contested hunting grounds between different tribes. The Noman's lands borders
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: between different tribes where it was not safe to go
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: hunt and fish because of the chances you'd run into
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: your competitors, and those areas tended to concentrate game. So
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: we've always kind of like fought over access points and
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: fought over rivers and fought over control of the Ohio
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: and control of the Cumberland Gap. No, no no, no, because
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: we wanted those little things for ourselves. I get it.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: But the same way I do when it comes to
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: issues of clean air and clean water, Um, what I
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: do when it comes to issues of public access, I
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: am generally gonna just instinctively side on the side of access.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: Public access. It's like, it doesn't mean I don't understand
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: the other arguments. If I was, I could go in
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: and argue all day long, and I could probably be
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: fairly convincing at it, like I have that much of
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: a grasp bottom. Um. But if we don't watch out
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: and protect public access, I feel as though we are
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: gonna slowly just get beat. Well here's my my Pollyanna
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: pipe ups. Here's what I don't get a about that
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: private ownership is I love the hell out of sharing it.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're blue girl thing too, I guarantee. Well,
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. Like there's something about
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: going out there and like helping people get into them.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: I mean really, and I challenge I bet you have
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: that too. I don't maybe not. I like to share
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: the fish stack. However, how much time did you spend
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: trying to get me a yellow eye? Yeah, I was
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: the only person fishing, and I think it was the
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: writer John Gearritt who pointed out great fishing. Writer pointed
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: out there's two kinds of fishermen. There's the guys in
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: your party and enters the assholes. So yeah, I love
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: to take people out. But at the same time, now
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: there is a Native tribal corporation that owns a lot
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: of land near my fish shack. When they go in
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: and cut timber, they clear cut it, they annihilate the place.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: And the one I talk about Cela, they're going into
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: do a big cut right now, just what we saw,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: and they are gonna annihilate all the old growth on
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: the two big end. Let's buy My place is their land,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: right their property. It makes me feel sick the destruction
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: that we saw in three days without them taking a
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: stick of lumber out, not one stick lumber out, just
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: getting things prepped to start taking lumber out, dynamite. They
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: will go after the They will go after every scrap
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: of old girlth they can get. So it's private land,
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and I do. There are parts of me
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: I look and go like it can never be like,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: why can't the tribal corporation look at that and be like, yeah,
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: I gotta like it like that. It's just there's just
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: something about It's just kills me. It kills me To
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: bring her back to a point point being I understand
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: all the complexities and idiosyncrasies and hypocrisies, right, I don't
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: want someone telling me. If someone came and say, hey, man,
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: you can't do that on your property, I'd be like what. Meanwhile,
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: I look across the beach and I'm like, how can
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: have sons of bitches do that on their property? So
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: it's just like we are full of personal biases that
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: we're always looking out for our own well being. I
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: could point to you, Hillary and say, well, you know what,
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: you're running the business selling flies to people who are
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: fishing on the rivers that flow through private land. You
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: guide clients, right, So you're just looking out for your
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: bottom line, and that's why you're trying to dress up
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: this issue as something that benefits the people. What we're
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: really talking about your money, right, I just need the
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: money because it's if it's shut down, I won't get
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: to But that's a really good point. I mean that
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: is actually a huge part of it. Look at all
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: of the guides, look at all of the outfitters who
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: we all work together for our livelihoods, and we all
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: go to the grocery stores, real center, kids of school,
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: all this, you know, continues on. So it is true.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: It's a very good point. Looking out for public lands
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: and public access and use is a way of sustaining
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: our families and sustaining our livelihoods, especially in a lot
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: of these small towns where we've got three months to
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: do so. So hell yeah, I want to sell the flies,
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: I want to get people on the rivers, and it
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: is a way of looking out for myself. Can I
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: point out something about the tribal corporation is clear cut
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: in the land. They are wonderful about public access. You
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: don't need to ask. You can hunt and fish on
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: their land. Go ahead. Yeah, it's complicated. It's the renewed
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: timbers of renewable resource. My house is built out of wood.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: That ship got cut down somewhere. Okay, it provides jobs
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: all that, But we always have these things, but we
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: are always sort of looking out for our personal interests.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to make this point, Okay, I'm trying
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: to make this point. I'm trying to say, yes I have.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: I'm gearing up to make the point that, yeah, I
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: have stuff to gain personally from public access, like the
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: hunting fish. But I do think that it's a little
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: bit bigger than my own needs. I think that I'm
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: on the winning side of history when I say that
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: that it's something I think we need to do with
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: an eye toward future generations. Roosevelt talked about preserving wildlife
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: and preserving land for the generations still in the womb,
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: the womb of time, the womb of time, Okay, beyond us.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: Because of my occupation, I have no shortage. I could
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: hunt and fish the rest of my life on private
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: property and enjoy the best hunting and fishing the world
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: has to offer. Right. I happen to be lucky enough
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: to be like, we're doing what I do for work.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: I have great connections. I don't need this stuff, but
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: I do like to see it because I think about
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: future generations and what will their relationship be to the
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: out of doors, What will their perception of public resources be?
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: Will they have a vested interest. Recently that the director
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: of the U S Fish and Wildlife Service. Dan Ash
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: gave his speech, gave a talk, and what he talked
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: about was conservation becoming irrelevant as people turn away from
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: the out of doors and become more engaged with just
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: electronics the indoors, as we become more urban and less rural,
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: that people will just not give a ship what happens
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: with the woods and waters. Okay, By enhancing public access
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: and giving people as many opportunities as possible to enjoy
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: the out ofdoors, to enjoy woods and waters, you increase
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: the likelihood that those same people will stay interested in
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: clean air and clean water is the long game. Do
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: I gain something from it on a very personal level
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: on a day to day basis, Yes, But I don't
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: think you should take that and turn it against me
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: when I point out that we are talking about something
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: a little bit big or didn't catch a fish absolutely ourselves.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: I do that shorthand, Um, that was a lot more
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: eloquent than I would do it. But I said, it's
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: like the access is the gateway drug conservation. Yes, right,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: and so without that access, like what you just said,
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: then why do you care? Right? And so if you
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: have that access and you get out there and get yourself.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: I'm wors in it. And then you start to learn
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: intersecrecies of all that all works together and what part
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: you play. So it's just a gateway drugs what it is. Yeah,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: ed Abby wouldn't have written Desert Solitaire if he didn't
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: hang out outside. Jim Harrison would have written wolf Right
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: if he hadn't spent a bunch of time in the
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: here on National Force. It's like exposure leads to advocacy.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: I also guide a lot of people from the city
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: who are trying to get away from their lives doing
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: whatever it is that they do in the city where
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: you're talking about. Those are kind of potentially the people
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: who might create less need for woods and waters. But
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: they need to get away somehow, right, So they come
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: away for a weekend and they come out and and
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: my point to them is no, no, I'm glad you
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: came out here to get away, but you need to
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: not come out here to get away. You need to
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: come out here to be part of it because it
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: belongs to you, it belongs to all of us, and
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: you need to continue to contribute to it. So this
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: is yours as much as it is mine. This isn't
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: like Disneyland, where this river's on rails and you've paid
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: and you're I'm gonna take your round around in circles.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: This belongs to you. So so don't think of getting
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: away from it. Being in the city and having all
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: your electronics in your life. Make it part of your life.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: Come out here and say this is every bit of
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: my life. Is what I do from my nine to five.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: Welcome American to your river. To your river. I mean,
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: this is not you getting away. This is like, this
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: is an extension of your life and then your kid's life.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: And when they look at it like that, they're like,
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: oh my god, I never knew. And then that ownership
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: comes out in them. They feel like, God, well, we
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: gotta we have to look at protecting this. This has
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: to be here for future generations. I didn't know. I
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: didn't know this was here for my children's children, and
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: I'm like, how do not? But now you do. And
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: so then what happens is then they go back to
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: the cities and they can be able to make plans
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: to come back next year and maybe it will be
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: two years, but doesn't matter. It's in their heart, it's
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: in their head. They're able to tell their kids, they've
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: got their photos, you know, it's the screensaver on their
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: phone now, and they're part of it, and they're going
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: to fight like hell to protect it because they've been there.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: They're connected to it now and they're going to be
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: some of the biggest fighters and and it's soaked in them.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: They're never going to forget that experience. I mean, I
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: have people who like um, ask for photos of some
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: of our trips, uh that I need to send to them,
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: and it's been maybe years since they've come back, but
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: it's because somebody who's on that trip died and they
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: want that to be part of their memorial service, you know.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's really lasting impressions and they use it.
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: They they're the ones who vote. I mean, any of
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: these guys here all say that, you know, voting is
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: the number one way that we're going to be able
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: to protect it. And those people in cities who potentially
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: you're saying aren't necessarily connected to it, I think are
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: so connected to it because of their small experiences that
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: they will vote for it. Good. Now we're gonna do
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: something that was great, but that was that was like
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: you did your concluding thought before we do conclude. I
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: could say it again, that's what we're worried that, uh,
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: we'll do concluding thoughts and the not that direction you
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: deal poker, oh man, but laying I'm dictating your h
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: that's punchline to a joke we recually got really interested in.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: Um uh. At my age, I find that punch lines
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: are funnier than the actual joke. I'd rather just hear
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: the punchline and try to imagine the joke, like, uh,
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: Yanni's got a punch line, which is funny to me.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: I know the joke. I just love the punch line.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: There's another punch line and tell them how might dictate? Um? Yeah,
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: tell us your I don't have any more jokes, I
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: don't have any more funch I'm gonna I'm not gonna
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: dictate it to you. Yeah, I'm gonna dictate to you.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: That are I'm gonna ask of you that you uh
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: have your concluding thought dovetail seamlessly into what people can
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: do to find out and get involved? Do you mind
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: doing that? So do whatever you want to do. But
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: but but I was starting to be my concluding clots,
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: so like we were thinking the same thing. Wiggle it
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: into that. Okay, okay um. I think I said before
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: the last time we did a podcast with Land, I
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: had my allies and adversaries mixed up. But we need
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: to find more allies outside of our blah blah blah.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: I think so. And I was of hunting and fishing,
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: and I think likes to get more people. So the
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: conservation isn't irrelevant. You know, we need to like expand
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: and always be accepting and joining hands. And I think
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: everybody knows that new hunters and fishermen and new recreators.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: Sometimes the hardest thing, one of the greatest hurdles we
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: hear about all the time is the is access. You know,
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: where to go, how to get in there, you know
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: what I get into it. So I feel like that's
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: where this, you know, it makes a lot of sense
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: to me. It's like, let's let's keep it all. Let's
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: keep it access because that is how we'll get more
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: people into it, you know, And don't you know it
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: all the time, but it's like it's like it doesn't
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: really work. It's utopian. Why there's always people and I
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: I there's always people who like want to bring in
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: all the stakeholders. Yeah, okay, but you have so many
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: conflicting stakeholders. But we can catch and release guys and
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: the harpoon guys you got like like yes, yeah, but
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: if they don't have the water, then it doesn't matter
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: if they catch really so harpoon. I love the idea
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: of having all all the stakeholders come together, but when
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: they all come together, there's always like a lot of
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: little things, the squabble, but the like yeah, I wouldn't
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: really describe me syric CLU does they do a lot
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: of great stuff. It happens to be that they often
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: times are at odds with hunting. Sure, and that's why
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: that's my point is that don't go into that conversation
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: with the member of the Sierra Club thinking that they
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: are immediately at odds at hunting. Tell them the meat
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: eater message, the story, and I think a lot of
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: times you'd be surprised that you can sway them and
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: get and we can be on the same team. Yeah. No,
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: I support it, I work toward it, but I just
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: I'm starting to get I've started to get I don't know. No,
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: I just think that you often we're just doing the
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: opposite though. It's like instead of just being like, Oh,
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: it's never gonna work. We're already like, screw those greenies.
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: They're not gonna help our cause, where maybe they would
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: if you just pitching the right story, which I think
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: you do all the time unnoyingly through your words and
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: show and whatnot. Onoul't you agree with that? Yeah, you
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: were saying you showed your wife meeting, right, she wasn't
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: gonna watch a hunt and show checks your thoughts at
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: the end of your cluing thought, Um, you wanted him
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: to go. Yeah, I do say, yeah, No, I mean
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: people need to be involved. People need to be involved,
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: and they need at least some taste to know at
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: least what they're missing out on and at least a
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: little bit of you know, people like us, like what
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: makes us so crazy about it? Um? You know. The
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: thing that that bugs me about conversations like this is
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people have a tendency to
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: argue it as an US versus them, um, a rich
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: versus poor issue. Yeah, like I was doing earlier, and
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: I think that's dangerous as dangerous it is so easy
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: and and like I'm not like I've studied rhetoric formally,
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: and I know that if you want to win rhetoric
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: rich versus poor cells. Yes, there's a lot more than
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: as we've learned, as we learned now and the presidential race.
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: You can do rich versus poor even when you're rich,
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: which is weird. Yes, but I'm telling you, man, if
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: you go out on a big public waterway and jam
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: a harpoon through the guilt play, it's a big halibit
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: and you watch this plume, beautiful red blood come up
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: to the surface, Yeah, tell me more. I'm following you.
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: You get so locked into this that you would fight
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: to your dying breath to tech any access be you
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: a New York State native in a canoe or a
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: Montana fly fisherman, you know, trying to hop over a
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: bridge as a legal access point. Did I wrap that up?
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: Still floating? No, you're good, alright? Do I any other points? Nope? No, sir, Really,
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: you're still getting text messages from the lawyer. Well I
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: did today, why, just to try to to try to
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: patch things up. No. No, I didn't make my own bed.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: I can't hear my own laundry, but I can make
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: my own bead. What's your concluding thought, No, I think
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: that just what Calah and that's he and I will
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: reiterate his reiteration of what I said too. Is that
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: your connection to it. If it's the big bloody plume,
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: it's nature, it's wildlife, it's the outdoors, you're connected to it.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: You understart to understand by your own experience what access means,
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: you know, And I think that's huge, And I think that, um, yeah,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: it's something different for everybody, and it's something different wherever
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: you are and however you play. But the more that
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: you can tie your own experience into sharing it with
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: others and passing it on down, then that's when we
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: all start to understand it a little bit better. Good
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: are You're gonna come back to you in a minute.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: You think I have something more to say. No, my
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: compluting thought is a question. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: skip out of turn because I want to end with
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: your deal you're cooking. I'm just wait. Here's my compluting thought.
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: If you're as a guy. As a guy, let's say
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: you take a client out and you you take them
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: down a stretch river and you're like, here's what's up,
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: Here's where the fish like the lay, Here's what we're
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: getting them on right now, do this, do that? Don't
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: bother there? I know that whole looks just like that
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: whole wherever there's no fish, and this whole gold fish
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: that hole. And the next day there he is. Do
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: you get piste or are you happy? I'm happy now,
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: I'm not kidding, but are you not? Is that a
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: normal guide feeling or a not normal guide feeling? Yeah?
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: So I know what you're talking about, because there are
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: guides that I've been to different places, you know, have
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: fish all over the country and everything. And there's places
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: I go where I genuinely, sincerely have no idea what
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: happens in that fishery. And I step up and they
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: could tell him and ask him what what they're using,
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: what flies are using. I'll cover up the fly that
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: they have on the rod with their hand. They don't
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: want me to see it, you know, or else. Sometimes
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: guides always talk about how the flies in your hat
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: up here, these flies up in my hat. This is
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: actually when I'm fishing. But there's lots of places you
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: go where they intentionally put the wrong fly in their
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: hat to make you think as a visitor, that's what
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: you use. And then you're the dork out there, you know,
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: throwing big chubbies and that's not what they're using, using
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: tiny p you know. So it's like that it does
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: exist what you're talking about. However, where where I live
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: in Glay Sure Country, we have a lot to share.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: So it's not just the rivers and the fish. I mean, honestly,
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: don't care. I don't care. There he is the next
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: day standing in the Yeah, and you're like, how do
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: I know this guy both that I guided him here yesterday?
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: You're like, hey, he's gonna have giardia in a few
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: hours anyway, He's no, I'm just kidding. No, I am
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: talking to a guy with incredible wealth and knowledge of
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: the area. Though too some you know, Greenhorn comes in
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: and goes to the spot where he caught the fish.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: He's not going to catch a fish. He's gonna catch
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: fish in that, but you know he's not. He's got
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: a lot to work. Yeah, Like, yeah, I get it.
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: They don't know, Hilary, he's still gonna do that. Yeah. No,
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: it was more of it. And I'm not asking because
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: I want to understand her perspective' asked, just to understand
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: this thing I'm in my head and I'm just curious
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: and I am plotting the thing out in my head,
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: trying to wag whether how on coal it is to
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: do what I want to do. And I was just
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: seeking some opinion from a guide. No, I personally have
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: no go screw a guide over. No. I mean there's
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: a typical fy I, this is what I look like.
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: I can't see me. Um. No. I mean, there's definitely
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: ethics involved, but that isn't one of the things that
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: bugs me. And it happens all the time, you know,
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: and a lot of times. To be real honest, To
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: take it a step further, people will come into my
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: shop and they'll book a trip with me, and then
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: I'll draw them a map for the next day literally
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: and give them the flies for the next day, because
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: I want them to do it right. I don't want
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: them to go out there and do it wrong. So
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: if they book a trip, they fish with you on Monday, yea,
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: they're still in town. Yeah, you're like, Okay, here's what
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: you ought to do tomorrow. Yeah you bet, And it's
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: going to be legit like it's super serious. I'm not
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: going to send them in the wrong spot. I'm not
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: going to send them where I want them to go,
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: because that's not where the fish are anything like that.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: It's really really sincere and honest. And the reason is
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: it's because I know what I'm talking about, and I
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: want them to do it right. I don't want them to,
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: you know, mess it up out there. I don't. I don't.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: I want them to go out there with as much
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: knowledge on their own that I can give them in
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: my boat, and I really do. Again, maybe it's Pollyanna,
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: but I feel like most of the guide community is
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: the same way. We want to educate people about the fishery.
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: We don't want to start mouthing fish. We want them
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: taking care of the fish. We don't want them, you know,
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: to not pinch their barbs. We want barbs pinch. We
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: want them to have fun so that they come back
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: and experience it. We don't want to send it up, yeah,
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: stand on private land or make a mess like. We
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: want them to have a freaking blast like we do.
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: We really sincerely do. And so no, it does not
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: bother me when I see somebody out there, um publicly
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: fishing a place that I've guided them previously. Or I
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: also don't look at them and go oh, those could
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: be my dollars, like I could have taken them today.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: You know, I think I think that that rising tide
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: floats all boats, getting more people out there. And and
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: when I say more people, I'm not advocating for crazy
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: pressure on these rivers. I'm saying that the more public
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: access we have, the more spread out we can be.
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: If we start to pinch ourselves down by limiting public access,
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: then then that's gonna happen. That's gonna start to happen.
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: I've seen it in Utah all the time. I get
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: high hold and low hold by people and by guides
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: actually and child high hole and low hole. So many holes,
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: so there's um if you're fishing, uh and somebody drops
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: in on you, same kind of goes in where you are,
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: and then they go above you and you're working your
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 1: way up maybe and then they steal that hole. That's
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: you're getting high hold. And then the same thing for
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: when you're getting low hold. And in boats, it's really
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: easy to low hold somebody else. You pass them and
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: you can drop in on them. And a lot of
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: times that's ethically okay because you're leap frogging you kind
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: of like get into this rhythm where you can leap
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: frogging boats and it can be okay um. But if
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: you're both anchored up and fishing and then you get
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: ready to go and they drop in before you, you know,
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: that can be low holding you too. You're you're getting
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: ready to go and they look over their shoulder and
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: see you and then push, push, push and go and
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: they're kind of low holding you. So it can happening
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: on foot, and it can happen in the boat or whatever.
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: And that's just regular guide ethics. But it happens more
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: when there's less public access because now you are in
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: a battle and now I am racing against the clock
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: and on fish and like trying to get you know,
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: my people happy, and and I think that just recreational
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: fishing on foot. That's when the fights happen. That's when
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: people are like, this is my waters, my water, because
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: now you're pinched in Utah. When we've got one mile
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: we can fish in a certain stretch and you've got
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: six people all just low hole in each other. Then
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: that gets real tense, you know, and you're not gonna
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 1: catch fish because people are trumping all over the place.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: So that's what happens when we have less area, not
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 1: a real good outdoor experience. No. Absolutely, let me ask
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: you this question. One day I was fishing and waiting
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: and I come around a corner there as a guide.
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: These guts. This a little picture, you know, they sit
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: up those little tables and your clients there, and they
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: got like wine out. It's just they're having like the
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: little shore lunch cheesey karack or right. And he's camped
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: out on this hole. And on my way up waiting up,
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: I fished the hole where he's camped out having his lunch.
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: And this guy goes ballistic online or not outline. Uh,
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: you know again, I might be different about this. Not
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: out of line for me. I mean, like for me again,
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: I swear to God, I would invite you to come
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: up and have some wine with us, you know. I
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: mean that's just because we got in a screaming unbelievable Yeah,
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: not out of line for me. No, It's like it's
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: not we're taking we're taking a break. And he was
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 1: in a boat. Yeah, I can see that conversation happening
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: at the bar if you bumped into That's part two
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: of the story on the shore. In part two of
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: the stories, we wound up drinking in the same bar. Yeah,
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: and my girlfriend was a bartender in the bar, and
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: he had a girlfriend who was a bartender in the bar.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: And we want up hash later in a much more
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: friendly way and agreed to disagree. He said, no, wait,
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: he goes, You don't know that I have fished it,
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: am gonna fish it. I'm holding the hole. No, that's
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: not a thing. You can't hold. No, that guy is not.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: There is no holding the whole. No, let the whole
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: be free. I hope that's not. Should listen and I'm
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: sure I'm sure he is, and he's changing his ways
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: right this. You know what that thing that happened twelve
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: years ago. No, but if you came to Montana right now,
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: I think you know we're we fish and stuff. That's
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: not a thing now you don't. It's ridiculous. You don't
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: stick a steak in and like your fly your flag.
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: Because that's the only reason I want to tell a
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: whole holding story. Do you know what time we started? Guy?
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: Ye about wrapping it up to you? Well, real quick,
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: we use fish great Lakes, whitefish in the Sioux Edison
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: hydro Electric Dam, and there's like forty two turbans, and
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, Turban number twenty seven would get a
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: lot of fish in it, and old men like to
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 1: fish it and they would get up very very early
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: and go tie off. So where the water comes out
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: of the turban, there's for whatever reason he studs in
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 1: the ceiling. You could tie a rope around the stud
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: and hold yourself right in the outflow turban and drift
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: flies for whitefish. We would go to the bar and
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 1: close the bar, then get in our boat and go
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 1: sleep in the turban. And that would be very irritating
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: to people who would get up at five and we
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: were just sleeping in sleeping bags and the bottom of
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: a boat holding the hole that would lead to some
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: cross looks. That is hero hole holding that I've learned
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of terms today here is that it's one
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: remember remember what I yeah, yeah, I know. Um, I think,
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: like probably my cluding thought is I think this piece
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: about us first, then you know, and I think we
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: all lose when that happens. And whether that's the rich,
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: verst poor or private landowners versus the like unwashed public,
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 1: I think we lose. And I think we all love
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 1: America America losers really and and I think one thing
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: that UM that anglers can do a better job of.
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: Hillary brought it up being stewards, but it's also not
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: being at actors. You know, we talk about like the
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: garbage that gets left places or um letting your dogs run.
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's all stuff that we can control
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: on our end to make sure that those relationships stay
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: better and alleviate tension. Alleviate tension. And I think another
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: thing that Hillary brought up is like, you know, knocking
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: on doors and even though you know that there's public
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: access there, uh and you can and you can legally
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: access it, letting them know that you're gonna be there.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: It's just one of these friendly things that I think
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: we're getting away from in the society. And you know,
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: I wrote down the plain from Zula and was sat
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: next to a guy who's a landowner and we were
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: talking about this issue, and he said, you know, I
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: have a place down southwest Montana and above my house
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: about a mile there's a river access site. Below my house,
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: there's a river access site, and people are trespassing all
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: the time through my property. And when I go out
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: and try to have a normal conversation with him, and
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: be hey, there's legal access up river and down river,
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: and then you can way back and forth all you want.
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 1: We're getting a big yelling, screaming match about no, this
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: is my river and I have stream access. And so
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: that to me that then that story gets told by
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: that landowner to another landowner, and then that is that
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: way from their ten fifteen years that one story. So
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: I think we can be better actors as just anglers
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: in general. Um. And and so that's a segue into
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 1: then knowing what the laws are right and and we've
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: talked about some of the differences, and I'll just take
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: you know, Montana, Wyoming, in Colorado. This is a difference
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: in Montana where we have great stream access. You know,
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: I can access up to the high water mark I
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: go down to Wyoming or Colorado, and we've talked about it.
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: If my anchors uh in the water, um, I'm trespassing.
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: I can't really wait at all on private land like no,
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: the laws and and so that you know that, Like
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: I think we've talked about how in Montana prav landowners
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: gonna have to post their land for trespassing like no,
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: the law, we have the user responsibility. No, No, the law,
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: and so as as back country hunters and anglers, that's
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 1: what we're trying to do with our Stream Access Now campaign. First,
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: it's just create awareness and so one you keep yourself legal,
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: and so you know, when I go to their state
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: and I'm over a bridge and I see some awesome
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: sexy water, I want to go access that. But I
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 1: got to the law before I jump and put my
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: toe in one because I can get in a lot
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: of trouble the position I'm in. But too, like, that's
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: just a good thing for me to know. So the
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: first one is just like knowing what I think the
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: laws are. But then as as something Cal said is
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: that if you don't know what you have, then why
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: are you going to try to stand up and defend it?
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: So that's one. If you don't know that things can
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: be better, then why would you work to try to
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: make them better. And so by understanding the differences of
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: stream access laws all across this country and what it
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: is for you in your own state, you can decide
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: on whether that's a place where you want to try
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: to make it better or if it's something you want
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: to hold on too. So I think that education piece
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: is gigantic and as confusing as some of this stuff
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: was today and I get I appreciate you keep on
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: bringing that back in the world. Will let's slow down
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: and like explain this is because this stuff gets complicated
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: really quickly. And so what we're trying to do is
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: create a place where you have one place to go
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: where you can you know what is legal, what is not,
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: and how to find that information. Um, we're compiling that
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: right now and state state by state, and nobody's ever
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: done that before. What stream access like in Hawaii, I
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: will tell you here in December, I'm going Actually my
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 1: mother in law turned seventy and believe it or not,
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: on Kauaie there are natural um occurring and not natural
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: but they they planned them. And but now they're naturally
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 1: reproducing rainbow trout on Kauai, which is gonna be absolutely
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: crazy to go fish these little teeny streams with a guide. First,
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to figure it out for myself. I'm
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: gonna maybe one or two other days, go to their
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 1: honeyoals will be sitting on there. I'm gonna hole hold
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 1: on them, hold on here, hold holder. I'll be a
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: Howley hero hold holder. And that we're arguing U. So
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: I think it's that education piece first, UM. And then
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: second like there's like we've heard about a couple of
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 1: them already, but down in Utah Utah Stream Access Coalition
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: U Montiana, it's really the Public man Water Access Association.
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 1: There's these groups that are kind of starting to build
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 1: coalitions in these states, and so we want to one
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: help amplify their voices. And in places like New Mexico
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: where they just lost bill by four votes in our
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: state legislature that restricted stream access, we want to make
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: sure there's a coalition so the next time that we
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: have an opportunity to get that law changed, that we
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: have people coming together. And so that's happening in New Mexico,
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 1: and so we want to you know, we can't be
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: all places all the time. What we can be as
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 1: facilitators and amplify voices, right, and so trying to educate
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: and motivate and then inspire people to do stuff. So
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: UM stream Access now is this campaign. We've had an
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: awesome corporate partner. I mean Hillary talked about you know,
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: this is a huge piece of business, right If you
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: don't have access, this whole fishing industry pretty much goes away,
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: and yes, there will still be people fishing, but it
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: won't be as robust and sustainable as it is right now.
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 1: And so you know, um yet he is stepped up
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: coast to fish pond, Sage Reddington, um fly lines. Women
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: in Montown's making an awesome little lanyards out of use
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: fly line. So like the industry unders the industry understands it. Uh.
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: And then I think the public is starting to understand it,
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 1: but they need to be educated about it. And that's
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 1: pretty of what we're done. There. You have it? Is that? So?
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 1: Is it like a website? Stream access now you can
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: go to this dot org dot org. You can also
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 1: find it through our back country Hunters and Anglers dot
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: org site. We have it on there as well. All right, folks,
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: stream access now. Next time you find yourself buzzing along
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: fishing Walleye and you realize that you got a golf
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 1: course on one side in the house on the other,
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 1: think about it. Stay tuned in. All right, Thank you
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: guys very much. Man, Thank you