Latest / The Love Drive with Shaun Galanos / What straight people can learn from gay men with Eric Williams

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What straight people can learn from gay men with Eric Williams · The Love Drive with Shaun Galanos

• 0:00
  You just said gorge and I say gorge a lot and someone came
• 0:05
  into my DMS and they said hey baby, only gay men say gorge.
• 0:09
  Sean, if you only subscribed to the Straight Code of Ethics, you
• 0:14
  would not be Sean. You know what I mean?
• 0:16
  You do so many gay things that are not, in fact, gay.
• 0:19
  They're just you, baby. OK, my love lies.
• 0:37
  This week's episode I am very pleased to announce my guest and
• 0:42
  friend Eric Williams, a gay comedian, actor and podcaster
• 0:45
  behind That's a Gay Ass Podcast and the Confession Hole talk
• 0:49
  show on Instagram. He lives in L as Silver Lake
• 0:53
  neighborhood with his husband of 13 years currently touring his
• 0:56
  solo show. So today's episode is about what
• 1:00
  straight people can learn from gay people about sex, dating,
• 1:05
  friendship, vulnerability and communication with a guy who has
• 1:09
  thought about it more than anyone else.
• 1:11
  Plus solo psychedelics. Why deleting the apps was a sign
• 1:16
  from the universe, an audience question about how to tell if
• 1:19
  your partner is gay, and then unexpected thorough tutorial on
• 1:24
  uncircumcised oral sex. My name is Sean Gallinos and
• 1:28
  this is the love drive. Let's just start.
• 1:32
  We're going to start right now because you just said Gorge.
• 1:35
  Oh, I thought this whole episode was about our microphones.
• 1:38
  And I don't think so. I don't think it's a good place
• 1:39
  to start. You just said gorge and I say
• 1:44
  gorge a lot and someone came into my DMS and they said hey
• 1:48
  baby, only gay men say gorge. Sean, if you only subscribed to
• 1:54
  the Straight Code of Ethics, you would not be Sean.
• 1:57
  You know what I mean? You do so many gay things that
• 2:00
  are not, in fact, gay. They're just you, baby.
• 2:03
  You might not know this, the people listening might not know
• 2:06
  this, but Eric and I both interviewed Dan Savage recently.
• 2:10
  Also, congratulations Eric. How did that feel?
• 2:13
  Oh my God. I mean, well, the true T
• 2:15
  Speaking of gay lingo, the T is that he was on my podcast a few
• 2:20
  years ago. I was freaking the brunch out.
• 2:24
  And of course he was a genius. And then I got to go on his like
• 2:27
  a few months ago and also freaking out.
• 2:30
  And then get this, I was in Seattle to do my show that I've
• 2:34
  been touring and I'm walking to the theater and who do I see?
• 2:38
  A handsome man in a black jacket, hoodie up.
• 2:41
  We lock eyes, it was 1 Daniel Savage and we end up having a
• 2:46
  gorgeous a gorge conversation on that street and yes, my dance
• 2:51
  savage dream stuff come true and I'm still freaking out.
• 2:54
  So many dreams come true. That was really sweet.
• 2:56
  Yeah, no, I've been reading him since I was in high school and
• 2:59
  as a horny gay guy, to see a smart man like Dan who I also
• 3:05
  would love to sleep with, and I think he knows that.
• 3:07
  I don't feel weird about admitting that on the world's
• 3:10
  most popular podcast, The Love Drive.
• 3:12
  But no, I have so many levels of adoration for that man, both
• 3:17
  intellectual and also tongue ghoul.
• 3:20
  I want to explore with my tongue respectfully.
• 3:23
  Respectfully, yeah, so many. I I feel like he was saying that
• 3:26
  he can't be on that. He's never been on Grinder.
• 3:29
  I told him that I was on Grinder because I was looking for trans
• 3:32
  women and which is a thing in Montreal or Canada, not so much
• 3:37
  in the States. I guess Grinder In Canada you
• 3:40
  can filter for trans people, whereas you cannot in the United
• 3:44
  States. Did you know that?
• 3:45
  No, I did not know about the filtering.
• 3:47
  I obviously have seen trans folks on the apps, but I didn't
• 3:51
  realize that there was a filtering difference between the
• 3:54
  North American countries. Isn't that crazy?
• 3:56
  But I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense actually, so that
• 3:59
  you can filter for what you're looking for.
• 4:01
  Yeah, no, I, but I think it gets dicey because apparently Grinder
• 4:06
  used to have filtering by like race and that got to be your
• 4:09
  problematic. I feel like Hinge does if you
• 4:13
  pay if you pay. Well, let me tell you, let me
• 4:15
  tell you my BTS, which is that I've been married for a, I've
• 4:19
  been with my husband for almost 13 years, but we were, I was
• 4:22
  never on the apps with him because we were monogamous.
• 4:25
  Now, for the past four years, we've been open and so I'm on
• 4:28
  the apps really for the first time as an adult.
• 4:31
  So I'm learning the insurance and outs.
• 4:32
  But here's a crazy update. As of yesterday, I deleted those
• 4:37
  apps because I was feeling that I was wasting too much time on
• 4:40
  them. I go to a party last night and
• 4:43
  the universe affirmed my decision to delete those apps
• 4:46
  because more than one handsome man was flirting with me in a
• 4:51
  way and asked for my number in a way that was like, that was the
• 4:54
  universe saying the apps are not the vibe right now for you,
• 4:56
  Eric. And that's and I'm listening to
• 4:59
  the sirens call. I think it's beautiful.
• 5:01
  I think it's a beautiful reminder that there are other
• 5:03
  ways of dating. Well, the in person of it all is
• 5:06
  so, I mean, don't you? Aren't you hearing a lot about
• 5:08
  like the analog thing, like people are?
• 5:09
  So now all of a sudden, like trying to turn away from the
• 5:13
  digital dating, digital everything.
• 5:16
  And so I think like in a sad but exciting way to return to the
• 5:20
  days where we're not using our phones to connect.
• 5:24
  It feels even more exciting. And it's pressing my buttons
• 5:27
  more to have like an IRL thing. There's also so much to say for
• 5:30
  like the vibe in person with someone versus what they are
• 5:33
  communicating on a profile, which I mean, how many times
• 5:36
  have we been emotionally catfished?
• 5:38
  I'm not saying that people are. It's not just like hot photos,
• 5:42
  but like you can curate whatever energy you want on a profile on
• 5:45
  an app and that it could be completely counter to your IRL
• 5:49
  energy. So like to to get rid of that is
• 5:52
  I find delicious. And not only that, but you can
• 5:55
  start having a text relationship with someone before you meet in
• 5:59
  person. And it is everything you've ever
• 6:01
  wanted to be, whether it's like hot, spicy, funny, witty,
• 6:04
  whatever. And then you get in person, you
• 6:06
  go, where's that person? What happened to that person?
• 6:09
  You're not the same. And I'm going to say this with
• 6:11
  all due. I'm married to a gorgeous man
• 6:13
  who is post some really lovely Thoddy things on the Internet.
• 6:18
  But in person, it takes a minute for you to get to know that
• 6:21
  Thoddy side of him. And so I have seen first hand
• 6:24
  how people can, you know, put things out on the Internet that
• 6:28
  are not going to be at all your first, second or even third
• 6:31
  impression of them in the real world.
• 6:33
  So it's sort of like a, you know, it's a catch 22.
• 6:36
  I, I just love there's something about like a, a real life eye
• 6:40
  contact, a real life energy read, a real life like hand on
• 6:43
  shoulder and you just can't replicate that with the texting.
• 6:48
  I wonder what it would take for me to get cancelled.
• 6:51
  The fact that you're searching for trans women on Grinder.
• 6:54
  No, because that's out and that's and I told that to Dan
• 6:58
  Savage and he's like, but you're not gay because I actually, I
• 7:01
  told him that I was downloaded. I had downloaded grinder and
• 7:03
  he's like, but you're not gay. And I go, that's right, I'm not
• 7:05
  gay. And he's like, you have done a
• 7:06
  gayer thing that I have. And now I want a T-shirt that
• 7:09
  says gayer than Dan Savage. Oh yeah, I mean, I, I, I would
• 7:14
  buy it too, but I don't know if do you think I'm gayer than Dan
• 7:17
  Savage. I don't know.
• 7:19
  It's interesting. I did want to kind of close the
• 7:22
  loop on that because you ran into Dan Savage and you said you
• 7:26
  wanted to do all sorts of things respectfully to his booty hole,
• 7:29
  and he's never. Body all top to tails.
• 7:32
  I don't need just booty hole. I don't discriminate.
• 7:35
  Yeah, we, we want the whole Dan Savage back in and he said that
• 7:38
  he's never been on a dating app, nor has he ever been to a a
• 7:41
  sauna. OK, I'm gayer than Dan Savage in
• 7:44
  that in that sense, because I love Zana.
• 7:47
  Right. But also, I don't think Dan
• 7:49
  Savage can go to those places well.
• 7:52
  It brings up a bigger question, which is if you, for example, go
• 7:56
  to a straight bar and somebody says that they are a fan of your
• 8:00
  work and they are of the female variety, does that turn you off,
• 8:04
  turn you on or make you feel any sort of difference when it comes
• 8:07
  to debating if you would tongue kiss them or not?
• 8:11
  It depends on if I'm attracted to them, it doesn't matter
• 8:14
  whether they know me or not. If I'm not attracted to them, it
• 8:16
  doesn't matter. So it doesn't really have an
• 8:17
  impact on it that much. No, that's but to your point
• 8:20
  with Dan Savage, I do understand that because he is such an.
• 8:23
  Icon. Icon but what if he wants to be
• 8:29
  treated like an icon in the bath house?
• 8:30
  You know, like people have a different, different
• 8:33
  relationship to fame. I and I'm not famous, but I'm
• 8:36
  only in the past year or two coming up against like gay guys
• 8:39
  knowing who I am. And it has very much been a
• 8:44
  total mindset shift, like, because I'm, you know, I grew up
• 8:48
  an insecure closet case. And then it's hard to now know
• 8:53
  what people's intentions are. I made out with this guy at
• 8:56
  this, like, fun gay event in LA. And then in between kisses, he
• 9:00
  leaned out and says, I should come on your podcast.
• 9:03
  That's weird. And so it's a little bit, it's a
• 9:07
  little bit funny dealing with that.
• 9:13
  Yeah, it's hard to trust people's motivations, but I'm
• 9:16
  going to, I'm going to just assume that, you know, people
• 9:19
  for the most part are good. But I have dated women who it
• 9:23
  was unclear when I remember actually one of my ex
• 9:26
  girlfriends, when I met her, I was like, what are you?
• 9:30
  And we met while we were while I was travelling, while I was
• 9:32
  living in San Francisco. And I was only there for a
• 9:34
  month. And I said, what are you doing
• 9:36
  going out with a guy who's only here for a month?
• 9:40
  And she's like, well, I like your face.
• 9:41
  And I go, is this a face that you recognize?
• 9:43
  She's like, I don't know, maybe. And she was a little cagey about
• 9:47
  it and actually never got to. And then we dated for a year,
• 9:49
  never really got to the bottom of the story.
• 9:51
  I like that though. I think that was a power play on
• 9:53
  her part. I think it was and actually what
• 9:56
  it did come out that she was like, oh, you know what?
• 9:58
  I did follow you a long time ago.
• 10:00
  But then I went and unfollowed or muted everybody because I was
• 10:03
  going through like a relationship sex content
• 10:07
  cleanse. I just didn't want to see it on
• 10:09
  my social media anymore. So anyways, neither here nor
• 10:12
  there. We respect her journey and we
• 10:16
  respect, we wish her well, and we respect Sean being gayer than
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  Dan Savage. And yes, I will call out the
• 10:22
  fact that you have beautifully openly discussed that you have
• 10:25
  tried to suck Dick and I know that you talked about that with
• 10:27
  Dan. So I just want to thank you
• 10:29
  again for your service of trying to be gay.
• 10:33
  I keep trying. I keep trying.
• 10:35
  I had a lot of comments from people saying like dude, if
• 10:38
  you've tried more than like just the fact that you've tried makes
• 10:41
  you gay. No.
• 10:42
  I know, we know this and then then a gay man came on and he
• 10:46
  goes, look, I am the gayest thing ever and I had sex with a
• 10:49
  couple of women when I was younger.
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  Does that make me straight? Exactly.
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  You don't have people saying and this is it's all gay panic.
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  That's why that's like the annoying thing about you coming
• 10:58
  out with something so just like honest and cool and yet all of a
• 11:02
  sudden people are like, you're gay.
• 11:03
  That means you're gay. Like people give a guy a chance,
• 11:06
  A chance to call another guy gay.
• 11:08
  Legitimately without it being a slur, without it being a slur,
• 11:11
  right? Exactly.
• 11:12
  Well, there's a video that I saw the other day on like TikTok
• 11:16
  where a guy shows someone, a picture goes, do you think this
• 11:19
  guy's gay or not? And and the stranger goes like,
• 11:22
  yeah, that guy's a little fruity.
• 11:24
  And then they go, do you think someone would think you're gay?
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  No. Hell no.
• 11:28
  They show her that guy's photo. Do you think this guy's gay?
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  Yep. Any chance a guy can call
• 11:33
  another guy gay, they're going to take it.
• 11:35
  I love those videos. I I watch them I think they're
• 11:37
  so hilarious and it's like every dude thinks the other dude is
• 11:40
  gay and they're all they all end up being you.
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  Know strange all gay panic and it makes me like obviously sad
• 11:46
  because it takes me back to when I was growing up with three
• 11:48
  straight brothers in St. Louis, MO and like the actually
• 11:52
  this story I haven't thought about in ages when I came out to
• 11:54
  my twin brother we were like 18 years old.
• 11:57
  I have a younger brother who was at the time 13 years old.
• 12:00
  And that 13 year old brother didn't know that I'd come out
• 12:02
  and he was in the age of starting to use the gay slur as
• 12:06
  an insult. And we were all playing ping
• 12:08
  pong as you do. And my younger brother, 12 years
• 12:11
  old, goes, I'm going to say something really bad right now.
• 12:13
  And I say go on, say it. He goes, I bet you want to suck
• 12:17
  another penis. And my twin brother looks at me
• 12:20
  being like, come on, tell him. And I was like, I'm not going to
• 12:23
  tell my 12 year old brother that I'm gay right after he used a
• 12:25
  slur. So I wait a few days because
• 12:28
  he's a very sensitive boy like me.
• 12:30
  And I said to him, Matt, just to let you know, I am gay.
• 12:36
  And so you should probably stop making fun of people by calling
• 12:39
  them gay because I'm one of them.
• 12:42
  And I did like a little bit of like an alien, you know?
• 12:44
  I mean to eat you alive. Exactly, And he his eyes got so
• 12:49
  big and you could see his entire world come crashing down because
• 12:54
  all these fucking kids who use gay as a slur don't know any
• 12:57
  actual out gay people that are like proud to say that they're
• 13:00
  gay. And so I think a lot of straight
• 13:03
  men still grow up with like clinging to the idea of gay
• 13:06
  being an insult and or like they love the gotcha moment.
• 13:09
  And that's why when you, Sean, say that you suck Dick like gay,
• 13:11
  he's gay. I know what this guy.
• 13:13
  Right. Not an insult.
• 13:14
  And yet it's the opposite, Sean. You're probably even more
• 13:17
  straight because you are choosing Puseta.
• 13:22
  You are choosing girlies. Puseta, I will say that if I was
• 13:28
  your little, your younger brother, I would continue to say
• 13:32
  like you want to suck penis because it would be actually
• 13:36
  funny because it was true. Yeah, And I guess I'd be like,
• 13:39
  OK, and you're wearing a blue shirt.
• 13:41
  Are we also just calling out things that are accurate now
• 13:44
  we're eating at Panera. What else do we want to talk
• 13:46
  about? Yeah.
• 13:49
  Something I want to go back to OK, I'm so glad we're talking
• 13:52
  about all of this because my hopes for this podcast and we
• 13:56
  didn't even introduce who you are, which we're going to do now
• 13:58
  20 minutes in, but my whole hopes for this podcast was what
• 14:02
  can straight learn about the gays?
• 14:05
  Because I feel like, look, the audience is mostly straight.
• 14:09
  We got a couple of fruity people here, but it's a lot of straight
• 14:11
  women and we know that the straights aren't OK.
• 14:15
  And it I think if I were to venture guests, straight men are
• 14:20
  doing as well as straight women are.
• 14:24
  You know better than I. I am going to hazard a guess and
• 14:26
  I'm curious for the the girlies listening, how many straight men
• 14:30
  do you think listen to your podcast 2.
• 14:33
  Percentage. So I'm going to say to the
• 14:36
  straight, straight girlies listening or queer ladies, I'm
• 14:39
  going to say that straight men are doing worse than you are
• 14:44
  because I think they are in a we're now in a time where
• 14:47
  there's straight men being called out more than they ever
• 14:51
  have. And I think there's maybe a self
• 14:54
  victimization by a lot of straight men.
• 14:56
  But again, you are one and you know more than I, but I feel
• 14:59
  like straight women are doing better than straight men because
• 15:03
  straight men are like very, I feel attacked when it's like,
• 15:05
  no, we're just maybe calling out some problematic behavior or
• 15:08
  misogyny or homophobia, etcetera.
• 15:10
  Whereas straight women have sort of always known, like, I don't
• 15:14
  know, straight women, straight women have been a lot better to
• 15:16
  me than straight men. In fact, straight women have
• 15:19
  more like, you know, my safety Nets.
• 15:20
  And I think that they seem to be doing at least a little better
• 15:24
  than straight men. But you can feel free to give me
• 15:27
  a retort. No, I think it's all I think I
• 15:29
  have felt safer with straight women and gay men than I ever
• 15:32
  have with straight. Men, Yeah, yeah, The older I
• 15:35
  get, the less straight men I spend time with.
• 15:37
  And that's why my time with you is always such a tree.
• 15:40
  And the healing for my straight male history.
• 15:45
  There are some of us out here and they listen to this podcast
• 15:48
  actually. And to both of you, I say hello.
• 15:53
  I also you're welcome here. I also want to shout out the
• 15:56
  straight man that I have in my life, I do adore.
• 15:59
  I do have some, but the older I get, the more like I was at this
• 16:03
  party last night. It was like, so it's just crazy
• 16:05
  to see like how the older I get with a bunch of gay guys, how
• 16:08
  we're like sort of veering off into like clinging to each other
• 16:13
  because so many straight people go to the like home raising
• 16:17
  family, raising kids, heteronormativity that I feel
• 16:21
  like I'm straying further and further away from.
• 16:22
  But anyways, we want to talk about straight women versus
• 16:25
  straight men and how what's I want you to, I don't want to I'm
• 16:28
  the captain now your podcast. No, no, we're, we're there
• 16:30
  corals that we're going to be going in and out of and we're
• 16:34
  well within the, you know, the OK corral here.
• 16:37
  I do want to just take a moment for you to introduce yourself.
• 16:40
  We don't even know who you are. Sean, my name is Eric Williams.
• 16:43
  I am a gay guy living in Los Angeles.
• 16:46
  I'm married. Shut up.
• 16:47
  I know. Can you believe gay guys are
• 16:49
  allowed in the Southern California?
• 16:52
  Definitely in LA, definitely in Silver Lake.
• 16:54
  Definitely. Oh my God, You remember I met
• 16:57
  Sean at a Sub Stack event because I started putting my
• 17:01
  podcast, the horny bonus episodes on Sub Stack.
• 17:03
  I have a podcast called That's a Gay Ass Podcast or I've
• 17:08
  interviewed people like Dan Savage.
• 17:10
  Kathy Griffin did it recently, which was a dream.
• 17:13
  Lisa Rinna. Still trying to get Elton John
• 17:16
  if I'm not mistaken. I actually declined him.
• 17:21
  Yeah, I don't like Atlanta, where he lives, where he has a,
• 17:24
  where he has a place. I thought he had a residency in
• 17:27
  Vegas. That too, I'm sure.
• 17:28
  No, I would love to interview Elton John.
• 17:30
  There's so many people I would love.
• 17:31
  My number one guest is Whoopi Goldberg.
• 17:35
  Because Sister Act 2 made me gay.
• 17:38
  Yeah, I also have a I'm a actor, comedian, writer type.
• 17:41
  Is that good? How?
• 17:42
  What else would you like to know?
• 17:42
  That's great. I mean Sister Act and Sister Act
• 17:44
  2 are great movies. Yeah, sister, Act 2, back in the
• 17:47
  habit is in my mind, the number one.
• 17:49
  It is what made me gay and I always think would be for her
• 17:54
  service. And in a way, she is kind of
• 17:57
  like a gay man because she doesn't want to marry, she lives
• 18:02
  by her own rules, and she's not afraid of speaking her God damn
• 18:06
  truth. OK, Amazing seg.
• 18:10
  Amazing seg. Because one of the things I
• 18:13
  wanted to talk about is that how queer people have had to sort of
• 18:17
  make up their own rules in terms of relationships because the
• 18:20
  heteronorbit of playbook does not apply.
• 18:23
  Yes. So what can, what do you think?
• 18:26
  I mean, what's been your experience with making up your
• 18:28
  own playbook? You know, I think there's a few
• 18:31
  elements to it. Obviously the first one that
• 18:33
  comes to mind is the one that's like spoken of too much right
• 18:36
  now, which is non monogamy. There's like.
• 18:39
  Annoying. It's honestly annoying like like
• 18:42
  how? Because it triggers every single
• 18:44
  person. I don't know if you've noticed,
• 18:46
  like if there's ever, I don't know if it's to say maybe first
• 18:49
  straight people, but even on my gay ass podcast or I've gone on
• 18:52
  other podcasts and talked about open relationships, there are
• 18:54
  gay guys in the comments being like, this is fucked up.
• 18:58
  This is oh, we, we fought all those years to get rights and
• 19:01
  now you're doing this. And it's like those are hurt
• 19:04
  people who hurt people. Those are people who have been
• 19:07
  told by heteronormative society what equals a healthy or good
• 19:12
  relationship. And so that's sort of in my mind
• 19:16
  right now an annoying thing. That being said, I thought I had
• 19:19
  to be straight. Take two.
• 19:20
  I thought I had to be monogamous.
• 19:22
  I thought I thought I had to be. I mean, I did think I had to be
• 19:25
  straight for a long time. Remember that hurdle then came
• 19:28
  out then thought I had to be in a monogamous relationship with
• 19:31
  children in order to be like respected.
• 19:33
  And so now one of my things that has been sort of like a creating
• 19:37
  my own rules is the idea of not having kids, which is very new
• 19:40
  to me. My husband and I both were like
• 19:42
  100% in. And then we moved from New York
• 19:45
  to LA, met a lot of gay guys without children who have a
• 19:49
  house in Palm Springs, who travel a bunch, who are very
• 19:52
  close with their nieces and their nephews.
• 19:54
  And I said, wait a clock tick. This is absolutely gorgene.
• 19:59
  And so that's the way that I've like sort of run away from that
• 20:02
  heteronormative rule. There's the idea of like.
• 20:07
  Being close to your birth family, I think that I thought
• 20:11
  that I would be like an outcast by moving away.
• 20:15
  And so kind of building those I don't know, the foundation of
• 20:18
  like my closest with my own family, even though I live very,
• 20:21
  very far away. That's something.
• 20:23
  But there's a long list. I mean, what else do you think
• 20:25
  I'm missing in terms of like straight rules versus how we've?
• 20:28
  I don't know, I just, I just love.
• 20:30
  I mean, how can one afford to live in Silver Lake without
• 20:33
  dinking it up? Dinking it up.
• 20:37
  Yeah, No, I'm also very lucky to be married to a man who works at
• 20:41
  has a real job, who works at a corporacion that has health
• 20:45
  insurance. Which it wasn't always that we
• 20:47
  were both musical theatre actors in New York when we met, but he
• 20:51
  what, saw the light and luckily left that biz and I left it in a
• 20:56
  different way. I'm not just a comedy clown
• 20:58
  talking about sucking Dick on a straight guy's podcast.
• 21:02
  So many ways for us to go here, but I remember Dan Savage saying
• 21:05
  that one of the things that he was looking for when he was
• 21:07
  looking for a partner was with a man with a serious job because
• 21:11
  his was not a serious job. I feel very afraid for my
• 21:16
  brethren who are two creative girls in one relationship.
• 21:21
  And I know that it obviously exists and it can be beautiful.
• 21:24
  But yeah, the older I get, the, I don't know.
• 21:26
  That's in a way that's, I think another way that I've sort of
• 21:29
  like, run away from heteronormativity, which is
• 21:31
  like, I really have created my own type of career.
• 21:35
  When I was even in elementary school, I was like, I want to be
• 21:37
  on Broadway. And there's not a lot of
• 21:39
  straight guys who are, you know, dreaming of standing next to
• 21:43
  Sutton Foster. There were signs.
• 21:47
  I was 1/5 grader and I heard that somebody at my elementary
• 21:51
  school had gone to high school, graduated and went to NYU, CAP
• 21:54
  21's musical theatre program. And at 12 years old, I was like,
• 21:58
  I'm going to CAP 21. I lived in St.
• 22:00
  Louis, MO, had never been to New York.
• 22:02
  Yeah, I'm going to go to Cap. So like I've, I've, I've always
• 22:07
  been pulled towards leaving the straight rules of my family.
• 22:12
  And that's sort of been the like, now, of course, a little
• 22:15
  deep Volney moment. Is that like a grieving process
• 22:19
  I had to go through was grieving the fact that I am so different
• 22:22
  from my immediate family. I've got three brothers who all
• 22:27
  have incredibly normal jobs. My older brother's a
• 22:31
  veterinarian, My other two brothers work in finance, and my
• 22:35
  dad owns a pharmacy. And it's all very like sort of,
• 22:40
  you know, straight and quote UN quote normal.
• 22:43
  And here I am, the freak of the fam.
• 22:46
  Yeah, living in LA, dinking it up, making jokes about being
• 22:51
  gay. And like the open relationship
• 22:54
  of it all, like I don't really talk about it with my family
• 22:56
  because why would I? But I was too if I was afraid to
• 23:00
  talk about it on my podcast for a while.
• 23:02
  And now I do because one of the most freeing things I've
• 23:05
  experienced is not putting things out and having the first
• 23:10
  thing I think of being what will my parents say?
• 23:13
  I had to like, get rid of that. What will my in laws say?
• 23:17
  I had to, you know, get rid of that because, you know, I'm 36.
• 23:21
  I want to live for me and not for out of fear of what my
• 23:24
  straight family members will say.
• 23:26
  And that's not out of disrespect to them.
• 23:27
  I obviously love them. But I've had to really grieve
• 23:31
  the version of my life that is the same as my family.
• 23:35
  And it's sort of hard. Would you be willing to talk
• 23:38
  about stuff even, you know, being fully yourself and
• 23:43
  authentic if you knew that doing so would jeopardize your
• 23:47
  relationship with your families? Yeah.
• 23:50
  Yeah, No, I, I, it's a great question because I, I don't
• 23:53
  think it's bad to say that I would absolutely consider
• 23:57
  jeopardizing that relationship because my whole theory about my
• 24:03
  adult life is I was closeted for over 18 years and I'm now 18
• 24:13
  years past that and it's taken me.
• 24:15
  Congrats, by the way. That's like it so much.
• 24:17
  It's a big moment. Yeah, it's kind of crazy to
• 24:20
  think about how I've now been out for as long as I was
• 24:24
  closeted. And guess what these 18 years of
• 24:27
  being out have been? A lot of them been spent healing
• 24:31
  the wounds of feeling like such an alien, being told indirectly.
• 24:37
  Because my family are all very open, encouraging great people.
• 24:40
  But I grew up in a place that being gay was bad and wrong, and
• 24:44
  it was very it, you know, I don't think anybody was
• 24:46
  necessarily excited in my family for that when they first heard
• 24:50
  the news. Now they're thrilled and it's
• 24:52
  great, but I've had to heal. They're still thrilled.
• 24:54
  Every time you come home, they're like, yeah.
• 24:56
  I'm still the star. Yeah, when I, when I do visit
• 24:59
  and I, I do love to feel like the star.
• 25:02
  So because of these past 18 years, I've been so much therapy
• 25:06
  of healing the version of myself that felt like I was wrong and a
• 25:10
  failure and a freak and not accepted or I was always afraid
• 25:15
  of being shunned by my community.
• 25:18
  Now I want my next 18 years to be so unapologetically me and
• 25:24
  whatever that ends up being. Open relationship or just horny
• 25:31
  showing my hairy tits or just very much talking about Whoopi
• 25:34
  Goldberg or going to Puerto Vallarta instead of, you know,
• 25:39
  Kentucky. We can.
• 25:40
  Just call it PV, you know. Thank you so much.
• 25:43
  I don't want to brag about my bilingual Ali Ali Tay, but yeah,
• 25:47
  no. So to answer your question, I'm
• 25:48
  like, if there is a risk that I'm going to blow things up with
• 25:51
  my family in service of my own authenticity, I absolutely would
• 25:57
  do that. And luckily so far it's my
• 25:59
  family has been really on board with all the stuff I've been
• 26:03
  doing. Well, I'm happy to hear that.
• 26:05
  I will say part of that is because of the B word
• 26:09
  boundaries, which is something that my Jewish family was not
• 26:12
  well acquainted with for our entire upbringings.
• 26:16
  And so I bring this up because I've got this new show that I've
• 26:18
  been touring and it's very vulnerable and very trauma dumpy
• 26:23
  about my family. Because the whole story is about
• 26:25
  my biggest bully growing up was my twin brother who is 5 foot 4
• 26:30
  to my 6 foot 2. And so my entire family are
• 26:33
  short dudes and my mom is 411 and I'm the six foot two freak
• 26:39
  that had to deal with feeling like I didn't belong.
• 26:43
  And so I the boundary for that is my parents.
• 26:45
  I'm not allowing them to see the show.
• 26:47
  Yeah, one of my brothers saw it in Chicago and he was great.
• 26:51
  It was great. But not my twin brother.
• 26:53
  No, he's not seen it. So.
• 26:55
  Your twin brother is 5454. Wow.
• 26:58
  And you're 62. Yeah, he's a straight 54.
• 27:02
  Grew up to be a total Mensch. And you're a crooked 62 and so
• 27:06
  maybe you end up being the same height.
• 27:09
  Well, I'm always doing the backbend around him just to sort
• 27:11
  of make him feel included. I want to just a real quick plug
• 27:16
  for your show because I did see your show in San Francisco and I
• 27:19
  think that was a bit of a surprise to you.
• 27:21
  It was a huge surprise. And even in this moment, I am
• 27:25
  remembering how it felt to see you right after.
• 27:28
  And yeah, San Francisco was scary because it was a big
• 27:31
  theater and my first stop on this tour.
• 27:33
  And so you've seen the show. I mean, do you think it's smart
• 27:36
  to have that boundary of not having my parents see it?
• 27:40
  I wonder, I wonder what the impact is.
• 27:43
  I think I, I thought the show was fantastic, but I'm not your
• 27:46
  family member, you know? Thank you.
• 27:48
  My dream is to get it like filmed and my whole theory plan
• 27:52
  is my parents can watch it if it's like on their screen and
• 27:57
  then they can have the reaction and take a deep breath and then
• 27:59
  give me a call and say that was amazing.
• 28:02
  I think that's smart actually, because you're performing the
• 28:05
  show. Live, yeah, if I'm looking at my
• 28:07
  parents face to be like I'm at a pool party, turn to an orgy and
• 28:11
  then my brother was a complete asshole.
• 28:12
  It's like these are things that I'm not like.
• 28:14
  Dying to see my mother's real time reaction.
• 28:17
  Yeah, can you see the audience while you're on stage?
• 28:20
  Yeah, I mean depending on the. Set for You didn't see me, which
• 28:23
  is really upsetting because I was in the 2nd row and I was
• 28:26
  looking. I thought we were making eye
• 28:27
  contact. I thought you were like, I knew.
• 28:30
  I know Sean is here. I'm like hamming it up extra for
• 28:32
  him. Nope, No idea.
• 28:34
  No, I said hi to you after the show, and then I ambushed you
• 28:37
  after the show because there was so many gay men waiting, a whole
• 28:41
  queue of them waiting to do. I'm not sure what I.
• 28:43
  Don't know, you took your straight male privilege and you
• 28:46
  jumped the line, babe. Jumped the line, I jumped the
• 28:49
  line, I jumped on stage and I grabbed you.
• 28:51
  You did, but no, I that show was a very I mean you.
• 28:56
  I played it off like I was loosey goosey wild and fancy
• 28:59
  free. I was freaking out before that
• 29:01
  show and I was probably mostly not looking at a single person's
• 29:04
  face because I was just trying to get through it.
• 29:06
  But. You nailed every.
• 29:08
  You nailed it all. I mean, I think there was.
• 29:11
  Oh yeah. There was 11 technical thing,
• 29:13
  but no, I it's the interesting thing about doing this show is
• 29:17
  in different cities is getting the different reactions because
• 29:20
  Speaking of Dan Savage, the Seattle audience was tooth tooth
• 29:24
  stoof at the beginning of the show.
• 29:26
  It absolutely got to the right place and they were all on my
• 29:29
  side. San Francisco was there from the
• 29:31
  jump. The beginning of the show,
• 29:32
  great. Seattle, though, took about 20
• 29:35
  minutes to be like, do we want to kill this gay guy?
• 29:38
  What's tooth stoof every every little like shortening of a word
• 29:43
  that you've done throughout this episode.
• 29:45
  I've been with you the whole way, but tooth stoof I've I'm
• 29:48
  too straight. Can you give me your guess as to
• 29:50
  what you think tooth stoof might be?
• 29:52
  Too stuffy. Let me let me be better about my
• 29:57
  using my fricatives tooth stoof. There's a Cliff at the end of
• 30:03
  Tooth. Yeah.
• 30:04
  It's tough stuff. Oh, tough stuff too.
• 30:07
  Stoof. Toof Stoof.
• 30:09
  It was it was tough. It was a tough crowd.
• 30:12
  Seattle. Well, yeah.
• 30:13
  And I've heard there's something called a Seattle Freeze where
• 30:16
  they're a little bit cold at the beginning of an interaction and
• 30:18
  then they sort of warm up to you.
• 30:20
  But I don't hold it against them.
• 30:22
  They were. It was like March 5th.
• 30:24
  They had been through the horrible winter and didn't want
• 30:27
  to be alive, much less at Emerald City Comedy Club
• 30:30
  watching a gay guy talk about his twin brother.
• 30:32
  But again, they got there. They got there.
• 30:34
  It's a great show. I'm excited for you to do
• 30:36
  another tour because you you finished your first leg and then
• 30:40
  there's more dates coming. Yes, correct.
• 30:43
  I'm doing so stay tuned, people. If if oh fire Island.
• 30:45
  What about Providence? Is that another big?
• 30:47
  I'm working on that one. I would love to do it there.
• 30:49
  I'm going to try to do it. Yeah, yeah, everybody.
• 30:51
  If if you are, you need. To go to Montreal.
• 30:55
  I would love to go to Montreal. Yeah, I could maybe help with
• 30:58
  that. Oh, thank you, Sean.
• 31:00
  Yeah, a true ally. There were some straight women
• 31:02
  by you, I think. And the San Francisco show,
• 31:05
  there were like a few straight women towards the front.
• 31:07
  Did you? Maybe I wasn't.
• 31:08
  Yeah, there I wasn't. I was.
• 31:10
  Just did any gay guys eye fuck you at my show?
• 31:13
  I was all eyes on you, man. I couldn't tell what was going
• 31:15
  on. That's I couldn't tell what
• 31:17
  other people were doing. How do you feel when gay guys
• 31:19
  flirt with you? I think I'm generally flattered,
• 31:23
  yeah. I will say though, that most of
• 31:25
  the the most inappropriate comments I've ever gotten on
• 31:28
  Instagram are always from gay men.
• 31:31
  I'm not surprised, I mean. Women, women are like, hey, if
• 31:34
  you're ever in Des Moines, I'd love to take you out for coffee.
• 31:37
  And gay guys are like, what does your butt hole look like?
• 31:40
  And can I shove my Dick inside or whatever, you know, or like,
• 31:43
  are you open? I heard you used to suck Dick.
• 31:46
  Are you open to like, you know, trying some?
• 31:48
  More Yeah, You know, I have an interesting, I have a fraught
• 31:53
  relation with that because I'm, I want to be sex positive and I
• 31:57
  am. But I do think that we're
• 31:59
  currently living through a Gray area of consent when it comes to
• 32:04
  DM language. And, and I'm going to be totally
• 32:09
  upfront with you. I went to San Diego a few days
• 32:12
  for the past few days to like kind of cleanse my brain.
• 32:15
  I, this, that tour really took a lot out of me.
• 32:17
  And so I, I was so burnt out that I was like, I need to like
• 32:20
  take a reset and I went. Be around a bunch of Marines.
• 32:23
  And hell, I mean, God Bless America, as Samantha Jones once
• 32:29
  said. And I find myself at a gay bar
• 32:31
  by myself, which was like, you know, I was happy to go.
• 32:36
  It's a little nerve wracking, of course, to go to a bar by
• 32:38
  yourself and like those first few minutes sitting alone and
• 32:41
  feeling like the kid eating his peanut butter and Jelly sandwich
• 32:45
  and in the stall, toilet stall in 8th grade.
• 32:49
  But eventually some gay guys came out to me.
• 32:52
  Very sweet. But at one point, a guy was kind
• 32:56
  of sitting on like a tall stool. I was standing and he put his
• 33:00
  foot. He was sort of trying to flirt
• 33:01
  with me. I wasn't really having it.
• 33:03
  He put his foot, lifted it between my legs and like lifted
• 33:06
  my junk with his foot. And I did feel a little bit
• 33:10
  violated where I was like, it's not like I understand that
• 33:14
  you're just sort of trying to like put your pawn forward on
• 33:18
  the chess board and sort of like play a move, But I feel like
• 33:21
  we've missed a few steps before You lift my cock and balls with
• 33:26
  the top of your foot. Same thing happened the night
• 33:29
  before. There was this very drunk guy
• 33:31
  who asked if I was a bottom. Oh, no, he said, he says you're
• 33:36
  a bottom. Are you?
• 33:36
  I said, I'm, I'm actually not, but I'm glad that that's what
• 33:39
  I'm telegraphing. And he goes, no, no, no, you're,
• 33:43
  you're definitely a bottom. And then he was asking about my
• 33:47
  Dick size based on my shoes. And he just wasn't taking the
• 33:53
  red lights that I was giving him.
• 33:56
  And I didn't walk away feeling like it ruined my night.
• 33:59
  But you know, it's there's a fine line between being flirty
• 34:06
  and being just straight up like boundary pushing.
• 34:09
  Yeah, I mean, there's a difference between being
• 34:12
  sexually forward and sexually harassing people.
• 34:16
  Exactly. And I love to flirt.
• 34:18
  That's like even when Matt and I were monogamous, I he knew that
• 34:21
  I was a big flirt because I've always I've loved the chase.
• 34:23
  I love the like, are they into it?
• 34:25
  Are they not? But I think that gay guys, you
• 34:30
  know, it's funny, you're like, what can we learn from gay guys?
• 34:31
  I'm like, here, let's, let's learn what not to do, which is
• 34:34
  like sometimes be, you know, telling Sean in your DMS, you
• 34:38
  know, you should suck my Dick and you know, 7 * a charm.
• 34:42
  But I think that what we can learn from gay guys is what Dan
• 34:47
  Savage says actually, which is like when you're hooking up with
• 34:49
  somebody, it's with a gay guy, they're saying, do this to me or
• 34:52
  this feels good. Like it's very, there's a very
• 34:54
  clear communication about what we are into.
• 34:56
  And I think sexually that can be a great thing to learn from gay
• 34:59
  people. The one thing not to learn is
• 35:01
  creepy messages or like, way too forward of messages on Instagram
• 35:05
  just because you're horny. Or in person, like lifting
• 35:08
  someone or in person or just basically touching somebody
• 35:10
  without their consent is like really what it comes down to.
• 35:14
  Not all men, but always men, regardless of sexual
• 35:18
  orientation. That's exactly right.
• 35:20
  That's really, this is the the thesis we're getting to, which
• 35:23
  is that men across the board have some learning to do no
• 35:28
  matter what sexuality they are. And there's so many factors
• 35:31
  beneath it. I mean, I was watching a video
• 35:34
  of one of my, like, cousin's three-year old kids singing at a
• 35:38
  school assembly. And I was watching the girls
• 35:41
  that look, these young little girls, you know, try to sing the
• 35:45
  words and do the choreo that they've been taught.
• 35:48
  And I'm looking at these boys who are three, 4-5 years old,
• 35:51
  and they look like they're at a funeral and they are not being
• 35:56
  expressive. They're not singing the lyrics.
• 35:59
  And it made me immediately sad and clock the fact that still to
• 36:04
  this day, boys and men are socialized to be told that you
• 36:10
  cannot be expressive. And I think that's one of the
• 36:14
  factors that then leads them to, you know, maybe being gross
• 36:19
  because they didn't learn the tools of like, it's OK to say
• 36:23
  what you actually want or like, be vulnerable.
• 36:26
  It's more just like, let me just put my foot on your Dick and see
• 36:29
  how it goes. Yeah.
• 36:30
  When you said that, I was wondering like, OK, so that was
• 36:33
  one approach. Like what could he have done
• 36:36
  differently in that interaction other than just not do that?
• 36:39
  Like what's like what would have been a stepping stone that would
• 36:41
  have felt OK for you? I well, so we were ironically,
• 36:46
  we're having a pretty horny conversation, which is very
• 36:48
  normal. We were having a conversation.
• 36:50
  If I doubt he's listening to this, but if he is, I'm it's
• 36:54
  people pleasing. I was about to people.
• 36:55
  Please, my harasser. If you're listening, learn from
• 37:00
  my story. We were talking about a like
• 37:03
  nude cruise that like a bunch of gay guys can go on in some like
• 37:07
  gay destination and the the people, the guys that run this
• 37:11
  gay cruise, they're serving out drinks and the guys who are
• 37:14
  working the cruise are like fucking the guests on this
• 37:17
  little island that they take all these people to.
• 37:19
  So we were talking about it and I was like, this is wild.
• 37:21
  It sounds crazy. And I think that.
• 37:23
  What's the name of the cruise? Just sign make sure I never go.
• 37:28
  I do think they market it pretty specifically, so I don't think
• 37:30
  you're going to be swindled into.
• 37:32
  I just want to know, just just to make sure I, I don't
• 37:35
  accidentally show up to one of these cruises, you know?
• 37:39
  You know what it would be fun for like a project, a group
• 37:41
  project, if we were to go together and I was your
• 37:43
  bodyguard. But then we treat it as like a
• 37:46
  research excavation, a sociological.
• 37:48
  Experiment. But I think if if we were if and
• 37:51
  during that conversation, we can go from instead of A to F on my
• 37:54
  D, we could have gone to would you ever do it?
• 38:00
  And what are you into? Like if you start to like put me
• 38:03
  on that island in the story and if I'm green lighting that, Oh,
• 38:06
  I'm into XY and Z. Like if you personalize the
• 38:09
  experience so that I can talk about what I'm into and if it
• 38:12
  feels like I'm like giving green lights to continue to talk about
• 38:15
  what I'm into, that is great. In fact, this guy last night we
• 38:20
  were at this party, we were talking and it clearly there was
• 38:24
  like a mutual attraction. And he's like, let's sit down.
• 38:28
  So we sat down by this little fire area and I get we continue
• 38:31
  to talk and it's very nice. And then he goes, can I get your
• 38:34
  number? And I was like, this is exactly.
• 38:36
  This is why me deleting the apps felt like a sign from the
• 38:39
  universe when he asked me for my number because I was like, this
• 38:41
  feels even me, an old married man can feel, you know, like I'm
• 38:45
  being asked out and sort of like a sweet real way.
• 38:49
  And it was simply because, like, he didn't have to touch me or
• 38:53
  like, get nasty, but it was still very like an undercurrent
• 38:57
  of horniness that felt really yummy.
• 38:59
  Yeah, I mean, this is just a beautiful example of maybe how
• 39:04
  we know what can straight people learn from gay folks, right?
• 39:07
  Is like, how can you be a little bit more forward?
• 39:09
  I think there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of like
• 39:11
  fear. Now maybe post me too of like
• 39:14
  guys being scared of being forward so they don't look
• 39:18
  creepy and then they're. To me, to the answer to that, I
• 39:21
  think that I suffer from this in many avenues of my life.
• 39:25
  It's black and white thinking. And I think that to your point
• 39:29
  about like maybe men or people being worried about being too
• 39:33
  forward in the Me Too era of it all, there's this fear that
• 39:37
  you're going to go from no sort of flirting or conversation
• 39:42
  until I'm fully assaulting this person.
• 39:43
  And, you know, news flash, there is such a thing as a Gray area
• 39:48
  and as an A to B to C. And so I think that I don't know
• 39:52
  if you can learn empathy or learn how to read body language,
• 39:57
  but I feel like most of us are hopefully equipped with a
• 40:01
  certain a sense of. Awareness of how the other
• 40:05
  person's body language is reacting and if you can just
• 40:08
  subtly up the ante during the conversation with either a
• 40:13
  little bit of a flirting and if they're leaning into it, if
• 40:16
  they're yes anding you in a way that feels really organic and,
• 40:22
  you know, reciprocal, then up it a little bit more.
• 40:26
  You don't have to go from nothing to kiss or nothing to
• 40:28
  tit grab or nothing to Boo Boo, Boo.
• 40:30
  It's like you are allowed to further the plot a small step at
• 40:34
  a time. And then I mean, I'm preaching
• 40:37
  to the choir too because I used to like, I still sometimes worry
• 40:39
  about like making a move to kiss that you that it really freaks.
• 40:42
  It still freaks me out as somebody who's like new to like
• 40:45
  doing it outside of my relationship, but I'm starting
• 40:48
  to get more and more comfortable with it because it's all body
• 40:50
  language. I worry that I'm going to
• 40:52
  misread a queue, but you can't misread a queue if you're
• 40:55
  gradually getting closer and closer.
• 40:58
  If that person moves further away from you, well then babe,
• 41:00
  that's your answer. Yeah, I agree.
• 41:03
  I agree with all that. Gradual, if we could slow it
• 41:06
  down. I mean, you're in your example.
• 41:08
  Homie went from talking about this gay cruise to lifting your
• 41:11
  Dick with his boot. You know, there was like several
• 41:14
  steps missing from from that. You know, at any point he could
• 41:18
  have said, like, how would you feel if I touched you here,
• 41:21
  right? And, and didn't even actually
• 41:22
  touch you, but like kind of pointed to or like, how would
• 41:25
  you feel if I put my hand on your arm, right.
• 41:27
  And so yes, gradual body language and it's OK to check
• 41:31
  verbally. Right there is another example
• 41:34
  of that. Some guy was talking about his
• 41:36
  chest for whatever reason, and I immediately was just like, I
• 41:39
  want to grab your tits because they were, you know, really
• 41:41
  there. And what a beautiful tradition
• 41:44
  which is to enjoy a breast on whatever gender.
• 41:49
  And I don't remember exactly what the green light was, but I
• 41:52
  sort of like got closer and he was like, kind of like offered
• 41:56
  himself up to me. And then I gave him a squeeze.
• 41:58
  But like, it felt I, I definitely did not catch this
• 42:00
  man by surprise. I think that I think that is the
• 42:04
  number one rule when physically engaging with somebody, don't
• 42:08
  surprise them. We love we love a chesticle
• 42:11
  squeeze. We.
• 42:12
  Love a chesticle. Love a chesticle squeeze.
• 42:14
  I'm trying to grow my own tits and I'm I'm one step at a time.
• 42:18
  How does that How does one? Oh, you mean like via the gym or
• 42:22
  via? The gym.
• 42:24
  What if I was like peptides? No, I'm doing I'm going to I'm
• 42:27
  going to the gym. I have a fraught relationship
• 42:29
  with fitness as a traumatized gay kid from PE, but I'm I'm
• 42:34
  actually, for the first time in my life, like taking up more
• 42:38
  space, even physically. Like I've gained like like my
• 42:40
  wedding ring. I can't take my wedding ring off
• 42:42
  my finger because I've gained like 25 lbs since I got married
• 42:46
  seven years ago. All muscle.
• 42:48
  All muscle. I'll say that I think it's a lot
• 42:51
  of just like adult weight. It's just like I was like a toe
• 42:54
  wink Asaurus tracks. When I got married, I was like 6
• 42:59
  to 155, like, you know, I was like, but now I'm like, you
• 43:02
  know, 180 just like more of like a adult.
• 43:07
  So some muscle, some Tillamook. Well, we talked about this last
• 43:12
  time when we did the sub stack live and you shared your
• 43:15
  relationship with the Jim and I was in my peak NRE love
• 43:20
  relationship with Pharaohs and I tried to convince you to join
• 43:25
  Pharaohs because it's half industry people, half beautiful
• 43:31
  gay men and incredible programming.
• 43:35
  And now I'm kind of curious. I'm great.
• 43:37
  Did you end up? Well, it's not.
• 43:39
  The more interesting part of this whole story is that I
• 43:41
  created the fantasy from that moment of you moving to LA for
• 43:45
  good and then us going to Pharaohs together and having
• 43:48
  this friendly love affair. And once you decide it's not to
• 43:52
  live in Lai sort of decided it's Sean and Pharaohs or no Pharaohs
• 43:57
  at all. And so I went to EOS, a
• 44:00
  different oh, it's Gold's Gym has been bought by EOS and I
• 44:04
  just joined. I've been one single time.
• 44:07
  Oh, OK, well good then. That's how you're growing
• 44:09
  Chesticles One workout. Well, is this interesting?
• 44:14
  I started working out with a different friend of mine in his
• 44:16
  apartment building gym and he taught me how to grow my tits in
• 44:21
  a way that felt very empowering. And so I started to go with him
• 44:24
  a lot, but he's been less and less interested with me coming
• 44:26
  to use his apartment gym. And so then I was like, you know
• 44:28
  what? I got to take the bull by the
• 44:30
  horns and I got this membership and yes, I have been one time,
• 44:34
  but I've worked out at home now a few times.
• 44:36
  Push ups, there's all sorts of ways that I love how you're
• 44:39
  like, is this interesting? Why are we talking about this?
• 44:41
  I'm just curious because because we're friends, I'm I'm curious.
• 44:44
  No, I know, even as a podcast gay who talks on a microphone
• 44:48
  all the time, I'm constantly worried about, like, if I talk
• 44:50
  too much about myself, is it when people are going to tune
• 44:53
  out? But you're a very gracious host,
• 44:55
  so thank you for letting me. You know, also what we have is
• 44:57
  an editor who decides whether this stuff stays in or not.
• 45:01
  Shout out what's? Up, Alex.
• 45:03
  Everybody say hi to Alex. Alex, you're doing the Lord's
• 45:06
  work and we appreciate you. Yeah, so Alex decides what stays
• 45:10
  and what. Goes OK, great.
• 45:11
  Well then I'm going to enjoy the right even more.
• 45:14
  So, OK, switching gears here a little bit, but not, not really.
• 45:17
  We're not leaving the corral. I got a question.
• 45:20
  I, I asked some people on Instagram, Hey, do you have any
• 45:23
  questions for Eric? One of them, which is kind of
• 45:25
  interesting. How, how do I know if my
• 45:27
  partner, if my male partner and I'm a woman, how do I know if
• 45:31
  they are gay? There have been signs.
• 45:37
  And I think it's a really interesting question because I
• 45:39
  actually know of several people in my life who were partnered
• 45:45
  with a certain gender and at some point they flipped.
• 45:48
  And it's not that they were bisexual, it's that they were
• 45:50
  like very either heterosexual or or homosexual.
• 45:53
  And then at some point they're like, honey, sort of like how
• 45:57
  sometimes trans people are like, I'm a woman.
• 45:59
  And then at some point. He goes.
• 46:00
  Whoa, I'm actually not. And So what are, how do we know
• 46:04
  if the person that we're dating isn't, you know?
• 46:07
  I mean, I first want to validate this person by saying like it
• 46:10
  is, I think very normal, especially if you're like in a
• 46:14
  two different gendered relationship and a heterosexual
• 46:18
  relationship and you're like have that fear.
• 46:20
  I like think of it makes sense. And that's normal to me.
• 46:24
  Where it goes from like paranoia to reality is number 1 is
• 46:28
  secrets. I think if you're part, if this
• 46:31
  guy is seemingly carrying a lot of secrets that go from like
• 46:37
  what he's doing at night or whatever, or just like how he's
• 46:42
  spending his time. If you feel like there's a truth
• 46:44
  that is not being told, that to me is something to dive into,
• 46:50
  something really, really simple is just like if you constantly
• 46:55
  catch him checking out other guys like I, I think that it's
• 46:59
  simple but real because I will just say that I have to know
• 47:05
  somebody who also said that they were straight.
• 47:09
  And then it became clear that they were definitely not just a
• 47:12
  straight guy. And the reason why I didn't
• 47:15
  think that they were fully gay is because I have seen this
• 47:17
  person very much check out women and men.
• 47:21
  And I think that if this is your partner, you're going to have a
• 47:24
  pretty good idea of what he's looking at when you're walking
• 47:26
  around and if there's a constant checking out of men, you know,
• 47:31
  maybe he's bisexual, which I think is really hot.
• 47:33
  But does this person say what any of those signs are about
• 47:36
  Just. OK.
• 47:37
  Yeah. I mean, what, what, What do you
• 47:38
  think, Sean? Well, if he's using words like
• 47:41
  gorge and relish and tooth stoof, maybe those are some
• 47:47
  indicators. Good use of tooth stoof.
• 47:51
  Even though I I really push back on the gorge one.
• 47:55
  Well, no, I think that actually abrevs are a sign of emotional
• 47:59
  intelligence and I don't think it actually has anything to do
• 48:03
  with him sucking Dick or not, Sean.
• 48:05
  And all we're saying is that gay men are more emotionally
• 48:08
  intelligent, perhaps. I do think then straight men sue
• 48:13
  me. Sue me.
• 48:15
  Actually, I was having this conversation with a friend
• 48:17
  recently and you know, what can we learn from gay men and like
• 48:21
  how to be sexually forward, how to talk about what you like in
• 48:24
  bed, how to that all that kind of stuff.
• 48:27
  Gamut are usually pretty good at that.
• 48:29
  However, being more emotionally intelligent, talking about
• 48:34
  feelings, all that kind of stuff.
• 48:36
  Maybe not necessarily, maybe not necessarily, maybe still more
• 48:40
  just. I highly, highly disagree with
• 48:44
  so much respect. I think that's straight.
• 48:47
  My friend, are you disagreeing with my friend Vanessa?
• 48:49
  Vanessa, I adore you, and in a way that I'm sure I actually
• 48:53
  would adore you if I knew. You, you actually would adore
• 48:55
  Vanessa 100. Percent, I'm sure I would.
• 48:58
  And also with a name like Vanessa, how could I not?
• 49:00
  I've never been a Vanessa I haven't adored.
• 49:02
  I think though, that straight men are again, socialized to not
• 49:10
  be vulnerable. And I think that when you are
• 49:13
  socialized to not share your feelings, whether those are
• 49:19
  positive or difficult feelings, I think it doesn't work the
• 49:23
  muscle of emotional intelligence because then you can't clock it
• 49:26
  in other people as well. Whereas I think that gay men are
• 49:31
  constantly told growing up who they are and what they are.
• 49:34
  And we have to learn how to code switch and we have to learn how
• 49:36
  to survive and we have to learn how to lean on the women in our
• 49:40
  lives lives because those are the only people who are like
• 49:42
  really being nice to us. And I just think that we are
• 49:44
  working on more muscles. And the straight men that I do
• 49:48
  know, I mean, you're obviously one of them.
• 49:50
  I know some straight men who have great emotional
• 49:51
  intelligence. My like best, some of my best
• 49:53
  guy friends from college are straight men who were in acting
• 49:56
  school, by the way. It's like that is, you know, a
• 49:58
  gay thing in its own right. But I think that's mostly
• 50:03
  straight men are having midlife crises because they have not
• 50:08
  learned how to handle their own emotions.
• 50:11
  And so that that is my argument as to why straight men I don't
• 50:16
  think are as emotionally intelligent.
• 50:18
  I love it. And you know, Speaking of this
• 50:20
  loneliness epidemic, I Maybe men wouldn't be so lonely if they
• 50:23
  were able to connect emotionally to a whole range of. 100% that
• 50:29
  is, I mean, it's I do feel, I don't spend a lot of time
• 50:32
  feeling bad for straight men, but in this moment I do because
• 50:37
  I think that one of the biggest joys in life is to share how you
• 50:42
  are feeling with somebody else, whether that's a friend or a
• 50:45
  partner and feeling really seen. And that's why I have my
• 50:50
  podcast. That's why I do this show.
• 50:52
  It's because sure, it's like personal stories and whatever,
• 50:55
  but everybody feels people feel seen when you are sharing what
• 51:00
  you're afraid of or what yourself conscious of.
• 51:02
  And straight men are told that if you say that you're afraid of
• 51:06
  something, you are less of a man.
• 51:09
  Imagine being told you're less of who you are because you say
• 51:13
  that you have a fear. That's to me, so deeply sad.
• 51:18
  And I think that's why there's the very classic trope of the
• 51:21
  mom who's the emotional center of the family and the dad who
• 51:28
  cannot talk too much about much at all.
• 51:31
  It's because the dad was told, if you say that you have any
• 51:37
  fears or sadnesses or whatever, that makes you less of a strong
• 51:43
  person. And I think that's a fucked up
• 51:47
  part of the world that I do think it's changing a bit.
• 51:49
  I do think that like there are more straight men who are
• 51:53
  learning. Like there's so many videos of
• 51:56
  like dads on TikTok, straight dads on TikTok who are like
• 51:58
  kissing their kids. And like, I don't know if you've
• 52:00
  seen this guy who's like teaching his son how to play
• 52:02
  baseball. The kid cannot be older than 3
• 52:05
  1/2. But the dads like, oh, my God,
• 52:08
  this video the other day, the dad threw a strike and the kid
• 52:12
  struck out and the dad went, yeah, that was my curveball.
• 52:16
  And then the kid struck out, sat the bat down, ran out to the
• 52:20
  quote UN quote field, put his glove on.
• 52:22
  And the dad said, I love how you did that.
• 52:25
  I love how you just put that bat down and got right up to to
• 52:29
  pitch. You didn't throw a tantrum.
• 52:31
  You didn't Boo, Boo, Boo. And I was watching this and it
• 52:33
  was like porn for me. It was like, oh, to have a
• 52:35
  straight man affirm his child, his son, that he did not have to
• 52:41
  have an anger attack because he struck out.
• 52:44
  Feel like so many young boys are like socialized to be like,
• 52:47
  yeah, it's cool when you get fucking pissed and you break
• 52:50
  your bad. And we wonder why there's so
• 52:52
  much men, so many men committing violence.
• 52:55
  So it's like to see that, to see like those types of dads who are
• 52:59
  changing the narrative. I do want to shout them out
• 53:01
  because I knew do know that there is some people shifting
• 53:05
  whereas there are some other straight men who are still
• 53:07
  clinging to the idea of anger is the only acceptable emotion.
• 53:12
  Everything else, it makes you a pussy.
• 53:14
  Yeah, it's sad. I think I, I'm just thinking
• 53:16
  back about my dad was always like, he was like successful
• 53:19
  businessman, you know, raised two kids, was kind of always
• 53:23
  traveling and really never showed any weakness until he got
• 53:29
  older and was sick and diagnosed with cancer.
• 53:31
  And that's when he let himself be softer.
• 53:36
  And it was like so sad because it was like too late.
• 53:39
  It took something like that, yeah.
• 53:41
  It took something like that and he was still keeping it.
• 53:43
  He he hid his his diagnosis for a long time, even for me.
• 53:48
  And he didn't and he kind of died without most of his friends
• 53:52
  knowing that he was sick. He died sort of like in AI.
• 53:55
  Think only a handful of people knew because he didn't want to
• 53:58
  show weakness. I mean, that breaks my heart
• 54:01
  too. But I, I think that it can be
• 54:03
  very sad to see a man in the later stages of his life finally
• 54:08
  get soft. But of course, there is
• 54:10
  something somewhat healing about getting to know that side of
• 54:14
  them. I mean, even my dad lately, in
• 54:16
  the past few years is now saying I love you at the end of phone
• 54:18
  calls, which is new. And I think no matter when they
• 54:23
  get there, it's never too late. But I do think we sometimes have
• 54:26
  to grieve maybe parts of our dads or brothers or whoever are
• 54:30
  partners that we didn't get to experience for longer.
• 54:34
  Yeah, yeah, I will say that he did soften with me much earlier
• 54:38
  than he might have with other people, and I'm so grateful.
• 54:41
  Like it was really healing to have him be a softer dad because
• 54:44
  he was always kind of a harder dad when I was growing up.
• 54:48
  So how did you then become have? No fucking idea.
• 54:52
  I think the pendulum swung so hard into the other direction.
• 54:56
  But there's but that probably has to be like my Wu Wu side
• 55:00
  wants to interpret all this as like you somehow knew deep down
• 55:04
  about that side of your dad because it was allowed you.
• 55:07
  You allowed for that to come out in you like there it had.
• 55:09
  It had to have been in him somewhere, even if he wasn't
• 55:12
  showing it. Sure.
• 55:13
  Yeah, Maybe there's some part of that.
• 55:15
  And also like, I really felt like a sensitive little boy
• 55:18
  growing up, like too sensitive. I remember having like lots of
• 55:23
  sort of. I was just real.
• 55:25
  I think it's pretty sad. I, I don't think I was ever
• 55:28
  really super, super angry, but my tantrums were usually like
• 55:31
  just really sad. And I think I just felt a lot.
• 55:34
  And I don't think my parents were really well equipped with
• 55:36
  how to validate and soothe. And, and they were there in, in
• 55:40
  their way, of course, but not in the way that I think, you know,
• 55:44
  I could have, could have used. No, that's very relatable
• 55:47
  though. I too had a lot.
• 55:49
  I still have so many feelings. I mean, I'm now in my 30s
• 55:54
  learning how to self soothe and how to not get validation from
• 55:59
  other people or other things. Like it's probably why I like
• 56:03
  smoking weed right now is because I access a higher
• 56:07
  vibrational part of myself that doesn't feel the need to be
• 56:10
  validated by other people. I just realized like I am
• 56:13
  enough, but it sometimes takes me a long time to feel that
• 56:17
  because I have I just I'm I'm very sensitive to I've always
• 56:21
  been very sensitive. My experience with weed is that
• 56:24
  by me, I smoked a ton of it growing up and I've been mostly
• 56:28
  sober now for 17 years. I just started experimenting
• 56:30
  with psychedelics recently, in the last six months.
• 56:33
  Yeah, super fun by the way. I adjusted mushrooms on the
• 56:35
  beach in San Diego. Alone, alone fun.
• 56:39
  How much did you take? I've done 2 guided trips with
• 56:43
  like a really big hero dose cool.
• 56:45
  But this one was like, I took six squares of this chocolate
• 56:49
  and each square I think is like half of a gram.
• 56:51
  So it's like 3 grams. I mean, that's a, that's a trip.
• 56:54
  Yeah, I wanted to trip. I, I'm I, I really was trying to
• 56:57
  like talk to Mother Nature. Did it work?
• 57:00
  I did cry. So that happens every time I do
• 57:03
  mushrooms talk about being sensitive.
• 57:05
  I every time I, every time I do enough mushrooms, I cry because
• 57:08
  I'm like, you know, accessing some painful parts.
• 57:12
  But did it work? I think the short answer is no,
• 57:16
  because I wanted to really ascend and I was more just like
• 57:20
  having moments of a burst of tears and then like laugh and
• 57:22
  then it would be over and then and I just got really tired.
• 57:26
  That's funny. The two guided trips that I've
• 57:29
  had, well one was not guided, but I had a sitter and I took 3
• 57:34
  1/2 grams and I. Bawled my ass out for four hours
• 57:38
  like I was great though. Sobbing it was.
• 57:41
  How did it feel after? After you finished sobbing, what
• 57:44
  did you feel? Oh, it was great.
• 57:45
  It was, it was great. But also like I'd been sober for
• 57:47
  17 years and so it was like there was a lot of feelings of
• 57:51
  like, what am I doing? I'm sure I got to spend time
• 57:53
  with my dad. I got some universal truth
• 57:55
  downloads. It was really sweet and then the
• 57:57
  next time I did it I did even more and I sobbed my ass off.
• 58:02
  And then recently I was in Bangkok for a friend's party for
• 58:08
  a friend's 50th and me and and another friend decided to do
• 58:12
  what I thought was like a gram of mushrooms and it ended up
• 58:17
  feeling like fear and loathing in Bangkok.
• 58:21
  No. Like it felt like 5g and all we
• 58:24
  had was like 4 or five pieces of that mushroom chocolate that you
• 58:28
  were talking. About listen, sometimes that
• 58:30
  shit gets potent as hell and it was it was it devastating or was
• 58:34
  it OK? No, it was fine.
• 58:35
  But there was some moments where I was like, wow, I don't think
• 58:39
  I'm making sense right now. And what was interesting is that
• 58:42
  the party, only her and I were on mushrooms.
• 58:45
  We actually dosed ourselves earlier than everybody else who
• 58:48
  was going to do a bunch of Molly.
• 58:50
  And so for a few hours, her and I were on a totally different
• 58:54
  journey. And so that was weird.
• 58:58
  That was weird in and of itself. I don't recommend that, but I it
• 59:01
  sounds like you did OK. I because one time my friend
• 59:03
  offered me mushroom chocolate before a dinner and I took it,
• 59:08
  not realizing no one else took it, not even the person offering
• 59:11
  it to me. And so the whole dinner, every
• 59:14
  one of my demons came screaming into my brain.
• 59:18
  And guess what my demons say? It's so embarrassing.
• 59:20
  But this is what my demons say. My lowest vibrational self.
• 59:24
  The voices in my head would go. What you just said is so deeply
• 59:28
  embarrassing. You need to apologize to these
• 59:30
  people. You know what?
• 59:31
  Send a text tomorrow. Send a text.
• 59:35
  You are so embarrassing. Everything you're saying is so
• 59:38
  freaka deka Dutch. Nobody understands you.
• 59:41
  You're a weird freak ruining this dinner.
• 59:44
  Meanwhile, they're all just like cutting into their chicken
• 59:46
  cutlets having a ball. And everybody's fine.
• 59:48
  Nobody thinks anything spiraling.
• 59:51
  Yeah, So everybody's set and setting very, very important
• 59:56
  for. Mushrooms.
• 59:57
  Very, very important for any Have you ever?
• 59:58
  Done ayahuasca. Somebody recommended that to me
• 1:00:01
  last night. I haven't, I've never been.
• 1:00:03
  I haven't. I haven't received the call yet.
• 1:00:07
  I think right now I'm hearing a faint and I think ayahuasca is
• 1:00:13
  starting to reach out to me. And you have to start looking up
• 1:00:17
  for, you know, looking into your deeta to get ready.
• 1:00:21
  That's your next. Step OK and shall be Googling.
• 1:00:24
  Shall be Googling. Ayahuasca dieta it's basically
• 1:00:28
  like your your protocol, your pre ayahuasca protocol that
• 1:00:31
  includes I'm not a huge I don't know it's.
• 1:00:34
  Like a colonoscopy prep. Kind of, yeah.
• 1:00:38
  No sex, no caffeine, no this for, you know, X amount of days
• 1:00:42
  before, Yeah. Worth it?
• 1:00:45
  I just want to close the loop on.
• 1:00:48
  How do you know if you're boyfriend is gay?
• 1:00:51
  Oh yeah. And I think you hear this every
• 1:00:56
  now and then while he's in the bathroom.
• 1:01:08
  That's how you know he's gay. He's gay and he's cheating on
• 1:01:12
  you. Actually when you were like when
• 1:01:16
  homie has secrets that could also be he's cheating on you.
• 1:01:20
  That's true. He's doesn't have to be gay.
• 1:01:22
  Yeah, you know what? Hey, girly, don't worry about
• 1:01:24
  it. He might not be gay.
• 1:01:25
  He might just be cheating on you.
• 1:01:27
  And thank God he's not a homosexual.
• 1:01:30
  Because that would be EW. God EW, kissing boys.
• 1:01:36
  But like having a secret family. Whatever.
• 1:01:37
  At least it's not gay. Yeah.
• 1:01:39
  So for for those who don't know, that's the Grinder notification.
• 1:01:47
  And that was the most played sound at the Republican National
• 1:01:51
  Convention last year in all years.
• 1:01:54
  Yep, if he's on Grinder, you've got some problems.
• 1:01:58
  I mean, I do I this is a fun. I want to have a epilogue with
• 1:02:01
  this person who sent this in because I want to know what else
• 1:02:04
  why else she thinks he might be gay?
• 1:02:06
  Because if it's like he dresses, well, that ship has sailed.
• 1:02:09
  It is OK to dress as well as a straight man now.
• 1:02:11
  Oh yeah, there's some gorgeously dressed men on Instagram showing
• 1:02:16
  other men how to dress well. Exactly.
• 1:02:19
  There's this hot hairy guy, Edgy Albert.
• 1:02:21
  Do you follow him? No, but we're going to link it
• 1:02:23
  in the show notes. OK, any of those straight girls
• 1:02:26
  listening, prepare to be sopping wet.
• 1:02:30
  For anybody who's listening, maybe you should be watching
• 1:02:33
  instead. Boom.
• 1:02:37
  Edgy Albert. Oh, we love.
• 1:02:39
  We love him. I love this guy.
• 1:02:42
  I mean, come on now. And he posts fashion stuff.
• 1:02:47
  He as somebody who loves body hair, it's really I'm a little
• 1:02:50
  witness. OK, so the mustache doesn't mean
• 1:02:53
  anything, people. No.
• 1:02:56
  Doesn't mean anything. In fact, this man is so straight
• 1:03:00
  he has not replied to my message asking him to come on my
• 1:03:04
  podcast. But that's OK, we're playing the
• 1:03:06
  long game. Edgy.
• 1:03:07
  Albert my God 419. Now Shawn's rock hard.
• 1:03:14
  Yeah, no. Jealousy makes me.
• 1:03:17
  Jealousy makes me. Oh, that was a jealousy thing.
• 1:03:19
  Yeah, yeah, male, unhealthy male competition.
• 1:03:24
  Yeah, he's straight. Oh, if he went to theater
• 1:03:28
  school, unfortunately, we could, we could do like a like a Jeff
• 1:03:33
  Foxworthy like. Are you smarter than a gay guy?
• 1:03:36
  No, if you know your your man might be a redneck if.
• 1:03:41
  Your man might be gay if. He went to Juilliard.
• 1:03:45
  He went to Juilliard. Your man might be gay if he goes
• 1:03:50
  to the gym and spends a long time in the steam room.
• 1:03:54
  Your man might be gay if you catch him sucking another man's
• 1:03:57
  penis. But the first six are forgiven,
• 1:04:00
  right, Sean? I said might be gay and it might
• 1:04:05
  be 8 now. And no, gay guys do not message
• 1:04:08
  Sean. Should I be your 9th?
• 1:04:10
  It's been done before. It's a no, let me choose, let me
• 1:04:14
  choose. Do you think if we ever were
• 1:04:17
  like either on like mushrooms or whatever, would we have like a
• 1:04:21
  friendly kiss? I don't think so.
• 1:04:24
  All right, just checking. OK, actually just 'cause you
• 1:04:32
  asked maybe. Just 'cause you asked, maybe I
• 1:04:35
  don't really want to make out with dudes.
• 1:04:37
  And you know what? As heartbreaking as it is for
• 1:04:40
  all of us listening, it's OK. Yeah, I think it's OK.
• 1:04:45
  I feel the same way about making it with women.
• 1:04:47
  And who am I to judge you for that?
• 1:04:50
  Nope, Nope, you're Eric My. Freshman year of college, my
• 1:04:53
  freshman year, we went to a gay bar for my 19th birthday.
• 1:04:58
  I'm a freshman at NYU new to New York City and we go to this gay
• 1:05:01
  bar called Rush. It no longer exists but for
• 1:05:05
  whatever reason all these girls from my acting school I was with
• 1:05:09
  like should we all kiss? And I was like that's actually
• 1:05:11
  the last thing I want to do. But 2 girls made me do a
• 1:05:14
  three-way kiss with them and it was probably the last time I
• 1:05:18
  made out with a woman. I've never been the gay guy to
• 1:05:20
  make out with women and I don't judge anyone who is 2 does but
• 1:05:24
  it feels like kissing my mom but making out with men is.
• 1:05:27
  A dream hot and turned your own. Yeah, I love.
• 1:05:30
  I mean, there's, yeah, there's are you the type of person that
• 1:05:33
  can make out with a girl? And it can be really you can get
• 1:05:36
  hard from just the kiss. Sorry, can you repeat that?
• 1:05:39
  I was thinking about kissing people.
• 1:05:41
  Well this is my kissing question is are you the type of guy who
• 1:05:45
  can make out with a girl and just get hard from the kiss?
• 1:05:47
  Oh yeah, 101 hundred percent, 100%.
• 1:05:50
  I mean, a good KISS can get you leaky deaky Dutch.
• 1:05:54
  I mean, that's, that's what, that's what gets you.
• 1:05:56
  That can be what gets you going. Oh, 100%, OK.
• 1:06:01
  Also, I just want to say we're, we're, we're, we're talking in
• 1:06:04
  binaries here, you know, and I just want to, I just want to go
• 1:06:08
  out there on the record to state that sexuality is very fluid,
• 1:06:14
  very much can be very fluid. I'm glad you said that.
• 1:06:17
  I also think that what you and I have probably found in our
• 1:06:21
  journey of the spectrum is that we're further on the fringes
• 1:06:26
  than we we maybe originally thought.
• 1:06:28
  You probably tried to suck some D just to see where you are in
• 1:06:32
  the spectrum and it turns out you're pretty far hetero.
• 1:06:36
  I have tried to kiss girls. I had a girlfriend in high
• 1:06:39
  school. I could not get hard.
• 1:06:41
  I've not been able to get hard with a girl anytime in my life.
• 1:06:45
  I've only tried really once but I'm very far gay.
• 1:06:48
  But there are absolutely people who are more towards the middle.
• 1:06:51
  Well, here's the thing. I'm not towards the middle, but
• 1:06:53
  I will say something. It's not controversial, but it's
• 1:06:57
  a little divulging. It's a little, it's a little
• 1:07:00
  personal, but penises turn me on.
• 1:07:04
  Oh I like that, but. Men.
• 1:07:06
  Men do not. Oh, so that's the trans woman of
• 1:07:09
  it all? Yeah.
• 1:07:10
  No, that's great. And pussies turn me on.
• 1:07:14
  A lot. A lot, but trans men don't
• 1:07:17
  because they're men. Right, so I, I, and I've been
• 1:07:21
  and I've been enjoying watching trans men in pornographic
• 1:07:25
  materials and I'm learning a lot.
• 1:07:28
  What would you say about the penis is exciting to you?
• 1:07:33
  I mean, first of all, I have 1, so it's like, you know.
• 1:07:37
  I mano imano. Mano Imano.
• 1:07:39
  I think aesthetically they can be very pleasing.
• 1:07:43
  Is there? Are you the type of straight guy
• 1:07:46
  that wants to be pegged? I have been pegged recently,
• 1:07:51
  actually, by a queer woman, and I really didn't like it.
• 1:07:56
  And I've been pegged. I've been pegged a handful of
• 1:07:58
  times in my life. And like, I could say that it
• 1:08:01
  was objectively a hot act, but I was not turned on.
• 1:08:06
  OK, so now let's paint a picture.
• 1:08:08
  If you are finding yourself with a beautiful trans woman, you get
• 1:08:12
  excited about the idea of like your Dick and her Dick having a
• 1:08:16
  ball of a time. That's great.
• 1:08:20
  Yeah, no, that and that has happened.
• 1:08:22
  That has happened. So yeah, that's my, that's my
• 1:08:24
  little. Secret.
• 1:08:25
  I'm glad you divulged because I think that it makes you know
• 1:08:28
  less of a a man. Here, here's another little
• 1:08:32
  tidbit I much prefer, and I'm I hope I don't offend you by
• 1:08:37
  bringing this up. I know what you're going to say.
• 1:08:39
  Uncircumcised. Uncircumcised penises, yeah.
• 1:08:47
  How dare you? Are you fucking kidding me?
• 1:08:52
  That's my line anti semite. Wow.
• 1:08:54
  OK, so I'm circumcised, so all of a sudden I'm a dirty fucking.
• 1:09:01
  No, I, no, I, I am actually. I love that you said that, Shaw.
• 1:09:06
  I think that I have only recently learned about foreskin
• 1:09:10
  myself and what a beautiful uncharted territory.
• 1:09:14
  I'm also sort of like, not gagged, but like sort of
• 1:09:17
  intrigued by the now movement of less and less people
• 1:09:21
  circumcising their kids. Obviously as a Jewess, it's in
• 1:09:24
  my religion, but I do know it's now becoming more and more sort
• 1:09:28
  of, I don't know if the word is accepted or adopted, but yeah,
• 1:09:33
  there's the whole movement of people being pissed that they
• 1:09:35
  were circumcised. Oh yeah, Do you know about Jack?
• 1:09:38
  Mcbrayer. Jews against Circumcision.
• 1:09:42
  Oh no, I've never heard of that. Yeah, it's a pro intact, you
• 1:09:48
  know, Jewish support group or something.
• 1:09:51
  Anti circumcision basically. You know, I never, I'm not
• 1:09:54
  really angry about my lack of foreskin, but I yes, I support
• 1:09:59
  their journeys. I mean, I don't know, I guess
• 1:10:01
  it's sort of fraught a thousands year old tradition of
• 1:10:05
  circumcising us Jews. But what?
• 1:10:07
  Wait, what? Do you have foreskin?
• 1:10:09
  I do, yeah. I love it.
• 1:10:11
  So OK so now so my gay journalism question to follow
• 1:10:15
  up. When you think about your
• 1:10:18
  attraction towards a Dick, do you prefer uncut or cut?
• 1:10:23
  100% uncut. I would be like disappointed if
• 1:10:26
  it was you know. Again, didn't mean to offend but
• 1:10:29
  like I just. Like, no, no, I would have been
• 1:10:32
  more offended about Bush. I'm not generally a fan of Bush.
• 1:10:38
  Yeah, same. That's I feel more emotionally
• 1:10:41
  connected to Bush than Foreskin. We might be losing a lot of our
• 1:10:44
  European listeners who are like, what are you guys talking about?
• 1:10:47
  Like, no one is circumcised in a lot large part of the world.
• 1:10:52
  It's not a common practice in the United States.
• 1:10:54
  It's very common. And I think it's changing.
• 1:10:57
  I think it's changing. It is I, I, I read something
• 1:10:59
  recently about it. It's I, it's very interesting to
• 1:11:02
  me because I think when I was in college, I remember I had a full
• 1:11:05
  flashback right now of someone being like, did you hear Will is
• 1:11:09
  uncircumcised? Everyone's like, Oh my, whispers
• 1:11:11
  down the hall. Foreskin, foreskin.
• 1:11:13
  Foreskin Uncircumcised. What a weirdo.
• 1:11:16
  And now half the boys in school are probably uncut.
• 1:11:20
  Yeah. Anyways, I've hooked up with,
• 1:11:23
  you know, a handful of women in my life and a shocking number of
• 1:11:27
  them had never experienced uncircumcised penises.
• 1:11:32
  Didn't really know how they were different.
• 1:11:35
  A shocking number of them didn't even know whether I was
• 1:11:38
  circumcised or not. That there was even a.
• 1:11:41
  Difference. OK, so I'm selfishly going to
• 1:11:44
  ask this, but I'm sure people listening might want to know.
• 1:11:47
  Say there is somebody who has not been with an intact Dick and
• 1:11:52
  they would like to perform oral. Do you think that there is a
• 1:11:57
  difference to how somebody performs oral on an intact uncut
• 1:12:01
  Dick versus a circumcised Dick? Well, there's a whole, yeah,
• 1:12:05
  there's like a, there's a decision tree, you know, you
• 1:12:08
  have to be like, do you keep the foreskin up or down?
• 1:12:11
  What do you prefer? I like a mix.
• 1:12:14
  I like a mix, but also because I think that because I am intact,
• 1:12:18
  my penis head gets less stimulation on a day-to-day,
• 1:12:22
  right? Because there's a sheath
• 1:12:23
  covering it, A bit of a turtleneck.
• 1:12:26
  So if you will. If you will, and I did, the head
• 1:12:30
  is a little bit more sensitive on the whole, generally
• 1:12:32
  speaking. And so I would prefer probably a
• 1:12:35
  softer blowjob and I don't need saliva and I don't need a lot of
• 1:12:41
  hand. This is good to know because I
• 1:12:44
  am sometimes asked oral questions from my straight
• 1:12:47
  girlfriends and I love to provide, but I think when it
• 1:12:52
  comes to intact Dick suking I could not teach a class just
• 1:12:57
  yet. I'm still doing field research.
• 1:12:59
  Yeah, yeah. And I I would love to to attend
• 1:13:02
  your class. Oh please.
• 1:13:04
  Yeah, I know. We're always looking for people,
• 1:13:06
  for auditors. And I will also say, just as a
• 1:13:09
  pro tip, careful pulling the foreskin back.
• 1:13:12
  Don't pull it back too far down. It's connected at the frenulum
• 1:13:16
  and that thing can tear. Dio Mio.
• 1:13:20
  Yeah, and you know when rigorous sex can make the frenulum very
• 1:13:25
  sore. All right.
• 1:13:26
  So we're all we're all listening.
• 1:13:28
  We're not going to pull too hard, don't not going to use too
• 1:13:31
  much hand when we're sucking. Do you like it?
• 1:13:34
  This is a maybe this is a porn move.
• 1:13:36
  Do you like it when they take their tongue and like tongue,
• 1:13:42
  the foreskin? Oh yeah, with like doing a
• 1:13:46
  little like a merry go round or something.
• 1:13:49
  Little merry go round as it's sort of sitting there sitting
• 1:13:52
  pretty. I don't think I've ever even
• 1:13:54
  really experienced that. I don't think it's like, I don't
• 1:13:58
  know how how entertained I would be by it.
• 1:14:01
  Are you not entertained? But I, I, I strive to be able to
• 1:14:07
  answer this question a little bit more completely next time we
• 1:14:11
  talk. I'm.
• 1:14:12
  Going to definitely have to have you on mine and hopefully you
• 1:14:16
  will have experienced a merry go round tongue in your foreskin.
• 1:14:20
  I would be honored to be on your podcast.
• 1:14:23
  Oh, what's happening, baby? Yeah, I guess.
• 1:14:25
  OK. This is a beautiful natural sag
• 1:14:29
  into Where can we find you? You can find me in the cruising
• 1:14:35
  forests of LA. You can find me on Instagram at
• 1:14:39
  Eric Wills ERICWILLZ. My podcast is called That's a
• 1:14:44
  Gay Ass Podcast and I've got a glory hole talk show on
• 1:14:48
  Instagram called Confession Hole where people confess through the
• 1:14:52
  glory hole and that's at Confession dot Hole.
• 1:14:55
  Where does that get shot? Shot at a studio soundstage in
• 1:15:01
  LA. This company called Portal A is
• 1:15:03
  producing it, and they're really killing it.
• 1:15:05
  And I interviewed, I have 12 episodes in the can.
• 1:15:08
  We've just released our second of 12.
• 1:15:11
  There's a lot more to come. Margaret Cho is one of those 12
• 1:15:14
  and the clips are on Instagram and eventually the full length
• 1:15:19
  interviews will be going online. Most likely my sub stack, which
• 1:15:23
  is where my horniest interviews go.
• 1:15:26
  Yeah, I love some of the guests that you've had on that.
• 1:15:28
  Yeah, no, I got. We've been very lucky and my
• 1:15:32
  podcast and all this stuff is the great way that I've been
• 1:15:34
  able to meet people just like Sean.
• 1:15:37
  And I just want to, again, thank you for being a straight guy who
• 1:15:41
  is one of the very good ones, very good ones.
• 1:15:45
  And I want to thank you for your wisdom and your jokes and just
• 1:15:51
  your lovely, sweet, funny presence in my life.
• 1:15:57
  I'm pretty shy. Well, one day we might live in
• 1:16:00
  the same city, but for now we'll be long distance friend lovers.
• 1:16:04
  Well, I do live in a gayer city than you do, by the way.
• 1:16:07
  You win Sean, but I'm sucking Dick and enjoying it.
• 1:16:13
  And I keep trying for some reason.
• 1:16:16
  No day but today. Try it again, babe.
• 1:16:20
  Sorry, something just came up. How do you know your boyfriend's
• 1:16:25
  gay? Last question, what does love
• 1:16:28
  mean to you? Love.
• 1:16:31
  Means I want to tell you what my first image came to my mind.
• 1:16:35
  Love means smoking weed with your friend and eating ice cream
• 1:16:40
  and laughing and laughing and laughing and realizing there's
• 1:16:42
  nowhere else I would rather be but high on this couch giggling
• 1:16:46
  with you. Beautiful.
• 1:16:50
  Thank you. Thank you.
• 1:16:54
  Hey, everybody, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:16:57
  As always, if you love this episode, please do share freely
• 1:17:01
  and leave a review on Apple Podcast or a comment on YouTube
• 1:17:05
  or Spotify. Your support means the world to
• 1:17:07
  me. You can find Eric in the show
• 1:17:10
  notes. Everything that he's done is in
• 1:17:12
  the show notes. And also last reminder that if
• 1:17:15
  you want to come to a really fun retreat in Western Massachusetts
• 1:17:19
  with myself and my bestie slash Co facilitator Kristen Poole,
• 1:17:24
  I'm hosting a three day retreat called Love Camp at Kripalu in
• 1:17:28
  Western Massachusetts June 5th, 6th and 7th.
• 1:17:32
  If you want to bring more play to your life, that is what we
• 1:17:36
  will be exploring for three days.
• 1:17:39
  Three days of workshops, exercises, play, rest and
• 1:17:45
  connection and community. So if you're ready for a reset
• 1:17:49
  and you're ready to play, then this might be the opportunity
• 1:17:52
  for you. Go to the link in the show notes
• 1:17:55
  For more information about the retreat.
• 1:17:58
  And as always, have a beautiful week.