Latest / Business Roundtable / From Burnout to Buyout: Building Boards and B Corps with Jonathan Bennett

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From Burnout to Buyout: Building Boards and B Corps with Jonathan Bennett · Business Roundtable

• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Business Roundtable podcast once again, I'm
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: your host, David Carr of Stewart your Business bringing team
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: together to accomplish great things, and we have a brand
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: new guest this week, Jonathan Bennett. Jonathan, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me David. It's great to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely now. Jonathan brings a wealth of different experience. I'd
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  Speaker 1: love to have him on here because we're going to
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  Speaker 1: talk about a topic we haven't talked about before. H really,
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  Speaker 1: how do you go from burnout really to buy out?
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  Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about boards, be corpse and
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  Speaker 1: really building businesses that last. So Jonathan, I want to
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  Speaker 1: say thanks for coming on because this is a topic
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  Speaker 1: we have not tackled specifically before, and I know our listeners,
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  Speaker 1: whether you're a business owner or you're helping a business grow,
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  Speaker 1: we want to help you get smarter about what's working
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  Speaker 1: not working your business, How do you handle boards, how
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  Speaker 1: do you handle governance, and particularly be work be corp frameworks,
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  Speaker 1: which I'm super excited about because this was a new, new,
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  Speaker 1: new to me, newer to me, and I'm excited to
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  Speaker 1: have you share a bit about that along your journey.
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  Speaker 1: Jonathan so thank you. Before we get into the meat
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  Speaker 1: of it, I love to have our guests share a
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  Speaker 1: little bit more about their journey and what got you
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  Speaker 1: to clearly then, clearly than dot com. We're gonna share
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  Speaker 1: all the resources where you can connect with Jonathan. But
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  Speaker 1: take us back, Jonathan, what got you as a business
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  Speaker 1: owner and a leader passionate about what you do today?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much. It's great to be here. David So.
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  Speaker 2: I grew up in Australia, in Sydney, Australia. I live
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  Speaker 2: in Canada now and I've lived here most of my
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  Speaker 2: adult life. So if folks are trying to figure out
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  Speaker 2: where's that accent from that sounds weird, that's what's going on.
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  Speaker 2: And so I've had a kind of a cecuitous journey.
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  Speaker 2: I did English in university and all I wanted to
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  Speaker 2: do was write stories. And I wrote a bunch of
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  Speaker 2: novels and books of poetry and a whole bunch of
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  Speaker 2: stuff like that. But turns out, kids poetry doesn't pay,
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  Speaker 2: and so I needed some things to support myself and
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  Speaker 2: my family as the years were rolling pine. So I
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  Speaker 2: ended up in corporate communications, healthcare, social services, and I
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  Speaker 2: ended up on the senior team of a large hospital
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  Speaker 2: here in Canada, and I learned a time. I sort
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  Speaker 2: of described it as three free MBAs. It was, you know,
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  Speaker 2: these complex, four unions, multi site, twenty four to seven operation,
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  Speaker 2: thousands of employees, very very complex kind of work environments.
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  Speaker 2: And so I just learned a ton and you know,
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  Speaker 2: kind of fell over sideways. You know, we built a
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  Speaker 2: new hospital. I made it through two CEOs. It was
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  Speaker 2: kind of the tongue was hanging out of the mouth.
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  Speaker 2: I was like, you know by the end, and I thought,
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  Speaker 2: anything but this, I really need to do something different
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  Speaker 2: with my life. I had two young kids at the time.
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  Speaker 2: My eldest kid is autistic, and you know, I just
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  Speaker 2: wasn't being the kind of dad that I really thought
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  Speaker 2: I could and should and needed to be. So I
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  Speaker 2: hung out a shingle. I thought, you know, how hard
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  Speaker 2: could this management consulting thing be, you know, after what
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  Speaker 2: I'd been through. And I spent the next ten years
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  Speaker 2: growing a company and we served a nonprofit organization social
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  Speaker 2: purpose organizations across the country, did a lot of planning
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  Speaker 2: training of middle management, governor to training, and we became
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  Speaker 2: a b corp, which I know we'll get to three
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  Speaker 2: years ago, I orchestrated a management buy out with my
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  Speaker 2: colleague and so she bought the firm from me, and
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  Speaker 2: it continues on to do amazing things today and these
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  Speaker 2: days I'm an executive advisor and a coach, an independent
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  Speaker 2: board director, and so I helped founders and CEOs tackle
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  Speaker 2: the really the hardest things in their in their business
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  Speaker 2: and in their life.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you bring a wealth of experience, Jonathan. We're so
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  Speaker 1: glad to have you. That's why we have the Business
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  Speaker 1: Rinding podcast because I feel like often as business owners,
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  Speaker 1: because they feel kind of isolated alone, they don't know
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  Speaker 1: who to trust. And here is another voice, Jonathan that
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  Speaker 1: you bring a wealth of experienced background and particularly for
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  Speaker 1: those that are really interested in the corps. Uh and
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  Speaker 1: and why that matters? I think you know, you are
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  Speaker 1: definitely a person that I've gotten using business helping make
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  Speaker 1: some puzitive and and I think you know Bee Corp
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  Speaker 1: is a way of doing that. And I'd love to
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  Speaker 1: have you explain a little bit, Jonathan. You created one
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  Speaker 1: and you help these nonpropits. Maybe they're not necessarily a
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  Speaker 1: B corp, but talk about a little bit, walk us
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  Speaker 1: through a little bit about what is a bee corp
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  Speaker 1: for those that maybe never considered or seen it. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: everyone knows a C corp. That's pretty common. But bee
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  Speaker 1: corps are been around for a bit. But I think
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  Speaker 1: they're getting more traction now.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, So they are getting a lot more attraction.
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  Speaker 2: I think there's nine or ten thousand of them globally now.
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  Speaker 2: Becoming a bee corp is it's almost like a mindset
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  Speaker 2: and a way of doing your business in a different way.
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  Speaker 2: The slogan used to be business as a force for
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  Speaker 2: Good and I still connect with that as a way
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  Speaker 2: to think about how to structure everything that you do
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  Speaker 2: inside your business. Becoming a bee corp is like a
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  Speaker 2: kind of accreditation, So you submit yourself to a very
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  Speaker 2: rigorous process that can take many months, if not a
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  Speaker 2: year or more, where you benchmarked against a series of
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  Speaker 2: standards and if you achieve you know, the benchmark, you
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  Speaker 2: get certified as a bee corp. And then every three
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  Speaker 2: years or so you have to re certify. So it's
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  Speaker 2: not something that's a one and done and you get
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  Speaker 2: the seal of approval. You have to kind of commit
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  Speaker 2: to it as an ongoing, uh you know, improvement based
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  Speaker 2: like methodology that you're in your business. It's only for
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  Speaker 2: private sector businesses, so not for not for profit corporations,
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  Speaker 2: but but for private sector businesses and businesses of all sizes.
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  Speaker 2: So like I sit on an advisory board of a
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  Speaker 2: brand new Bee Corp. It's got two employees and it's
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  Speaker 2: kind of, you know, just just just passed a startup.
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  Speaker 2: And that's a very important part to this. Young folks
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  Speaker 2: like that running it to their view of the world
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  Speaker 2: and why they wanted to start their whole journey in
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  Speaker 2: business as a Bee Corp. Other companies come to it later,
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  Speaker 2: and famously there's some very largely corpse like Patagonia and
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  Speaker 2: Ben and Jerry's, but there's thousands of small and mid
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  Speaker 2: sized businesses that just really want to join the community.
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  Speaker 2: They want to make sure that their supply chains, that
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  Speaker 2: their clients and customers and folks that work for them
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  Speaker 2: are all being treated with ethics and in a good way.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely well. To me, it sounds like there's something that
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  Speaker 1: I work with lots of different generations. Jonathan, I'm sure
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  Speaker 1: you're seeing this, but I think I'm coming from the
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  Speaker 1: gen X generation. I'm you brother, there we go, right,
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  Speaker 1: But I feel in a good way I think they're
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  Speaker 1: pushed it back from youngers I would say millennials and
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  Speaker 1: probably even more in the Gen zs. They want to say,
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  Speaker 1: what is this because we have a lot more information
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  Speaker 1: now than we did when we grew up, Like what
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  Speaker 1: does your company stand for? What? Like you said, where
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  Speaker 1: are your barrier suppliers? What is this? You're part of
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  Speaker 1: something bigger, connected to this community. It's not just isolated,
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  Speaker 1: and they want to feel like they're a part of something. Though.
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  Speaker 1: I would see that this is an employer perspective of
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  Speaker 1: practicing a talented two right. It's not just for your
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  Speaker 1: outward clients or customers, but also the people that are
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  Speaker 1: coming on a work for your company.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's your one hundred percent correct. It's very holistic.
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  Speaker 2: So in some sectors and for some companies, it's quite
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  Speaker 2: a customer focused. It's the promise, you know. The brand
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  Speaker 2: promise is that we are who we say we are,
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  Speaker 2: and we can prove it because we've had an external
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  Speaker 2: third party authenticate the fact that we follow through and
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  Speaker 2: follow up on the things that we say we are
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  Speaker 2: and do. But the same can also be true for employees,
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  Speaker 2: and you're right, increasingly younger workers coming into the workforce
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  Speaker 2: and in the first sort of ten years of their career,
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  Speaker 2: it's an expression of self when they've done a lot
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  Speaker 2: of school, maybe they have one or two degrees, and
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  Speaker 2: they are committed to being ethical and aligned and they
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  Speaker 2: want to work somewhere that is an expression of those values.
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  Speaker 2: So be corps are a way to put your money
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  Speaker 2: where your mouth is, to be able to say to employees,
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  Speaker 2: you should participate in our company and in our values
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  Speaker 2: because we are who you are, and it's it's a
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  Speaker 2: deeper connection that you can have with employees and all
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  Speaker 2: the way I might add to becoming an employee owned organization,
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  Speaker 2: and so increasingly, you know, companies become employee owned. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: there's some of the highest scores that you can get
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  Speaker 2: in the bee corp journey is if you're an employee
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  Speaker 2: owned company and it doesn't fully employee owned, but even
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  Speaker 2: partially employee owned. It allows everybody to participate and it
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  Speaker 2: allows everybody to to just be more than just work
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  Speaker 2: there that they get a stay on how the company
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  Speaker 2: you know, grows and how it you know, treads in
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  Speaker 2: on the earth, and how it treats people. Uh, folks
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  Speaker 2: want to say in all of that.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, and I like how you said this earlier.
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  Speaker 1: You're on a board or just you know, working with
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  Speaker 1: a plant that too, So it doesn't doesn't It's not
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  Speaker 1: like you have to be gigantic to be say I
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  Speaker 1: want to be. There's probably a bit advantageous to start small,
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  Speaker 1: start sooner than later.
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  Speaker 2: It's actually easier when you're smaller. I think, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So so thinking about that. If you're not thinking about that,
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  Speaker 1: you know, consider that. But I think you bring up
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  Speaker 1: some good points too. Whether you're employee owned or not,
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  Speaker 1: you know, how are you? And this is where it
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  Speaker 1: gets into and that would go kind of back and
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  Speaker 1: forth in the B COREP. But for a governance Jonathan,
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  Speaker 1: how are you running this company? And I was with
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  Speaker 1: the company for example, that kind of you know, they
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  Speaker 1: had original owners and owners how to do that? Well?
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  Speaker 1: You know, And so you talk a little bit about okay,
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  Speaker 1: a growing business, what should of growing business considering in
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  Speaker 1: you know, an advisory but maybe maybe they've never had
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  Speaker 1: any kind of governance scaffolding if you so, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you're on this journey like they can make it so far,
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  Speaker 1: but they kind of have blind spots. So talk a
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  Speaker 1: little bit about business like this process considering boards and governance.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I appreciate this, David. I think it's something
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  Speaker 2: that more and more folks are starting to think about,
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  Speaker 2: when's the right time for me to get an advisory board. Like,
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  Speaker 2: let's face it, to be an entrepreneur, it's a heavy lift.
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  Speaker 2: You're risking capital, You're risking uh, your social capital, You're
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: risking your time and time at home with loved ones.
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  Speaker 2: There's there's a time and it's and it's it's isolating.
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  Speaker 2: It can be lonely, and unless you've been there before,
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  Speaker 2: you probably don't really deeply get it. There's only so
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  Speaker 2: much you can bring home at the end of the
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  Speaker 2: day and boy your spouse with uh. There's only so
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  Speaker 2: much that you can worry your employees with. There's only
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  Speaker 2: so much you can tell you're invest about without you know,
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  Speaker 2: freaking them out that maybe you're having a bad quarter.
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  Speaker 2: And so what do you do with all this weight?
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  Speaker 2: And so you know, for sure, folks reach out to
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  Speaker 2: people like me and you and you know where coaches
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  Speaker 2: and advisors and we can support. But you know, maybe
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  Speaker 2: an hour every two weeks or an hour every month
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  Speaker 2: isn't enough. And maybe you want a group of very
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  Speaker 2: well chosen folks to wrap around you, two or three
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  Speaker 2: or four people to start and to go on the
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  Speaker 2: journey with you, to have quarterly meetings, to ask really
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  Speaker 2: thoughtful questions, because they read your financials, because they understand
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  Speaker 2: your sales funnels, because they understand your supply chains, and
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  Speaker 2: they get to know your company deeply and intimately. And
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  Speaker 2: they're both in it and not in it. They're in
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  Speaker 2: it inso far as they're following along and they don't
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  Speaker 2: have to learn everything. It's not like a one off
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  Speaker 2: consulting job. This is somebody who's going to be with
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  Speaker 2: you for a couple of years, right, maybe three or
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  Speaker 2: four years at the minimum. So they're all in and
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  Speaker 2: you pay them and they come along with you. But
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  Speaker 2: they bring their wisdom. Maybe they're been an entrepreneur before,
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  Speaker 2: maybe they have an accounting background, or you know whatever
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  Speaker 2: you don't have a lot of. Maybe that's who you
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  Speaker 2: choose to round out your advisory board. So when I
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  Speaker 2: think about, you know, I've started a bunch of advisory
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  Speaker 2: boards for companies and I've sat on them. I'm like
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  Speaker 2: sharing an advisory board right now, and it's a growing,
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  Speaker 2: fabulous company and two founders that are in their kind
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  Speaker 2: of you know, like I guess maybe mid thirties, and
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  Speaker 2: they've just hit a stage in growth where they needed deep,
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  Speaker 2: deeper expertise around processes and systems and performance management for
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  Speaker 2: you know, a professionalized management team that they knew they
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  Speaker 2: need to bring in and so they've never done it before,
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  Speaker 2: and you know, they kind of know what they need,
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  Speaker 2: but they don't know how to do it, and they
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  Speaker 2: would like to, you know, not make all the mistakes right.
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  Speaker 2: So you know, I was kind of being a coach
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  Speaker 2: and an advisor to them, and it was pretty clear
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  Speaker 2: to me that they were ready for an advisory board
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  Speaker 2: to wrap around to go on this journey. And that's
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  Speaker 2: what we've done. So now we're into getting a recruitment
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  Speaker 2: firm and hiring their first CEO that's going to gradually
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: take over the day to day operationalizing and running of
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  Speaker 2: their business. And what an incredible journey and a growth
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  Speaker 2: and a journey of growth. You know, one of them
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  Speaker 2: wants to move out, the other ones to kind of
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  Speaker 2: dig in and do different kind of work inside the business,
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  Speaker 2: and so it affords all of that, and I think
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  Speaker 2: that governance and allowing you to tell the story of
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  Speaker 2: your company to somebody that really came to a group
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  Speaker 2: of people that are following along carefully, who are just
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  Speaker 2: as intimately into the details as you are, who can
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  Speaker 2: ask penetrating questions, who can hold you accountable. But you know,
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  Speaker 2: I think the most important thing, honestly, it's just the
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  Speaker 2: quarterly touch point of needing to tell the full, big
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  Speaker 2: picture story in a way that's coherent is so great
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  Speaker 2: because you get out of your own head and you
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: have an audience, and just preparing that deck is often
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  Speaker 2: just helpful to clear yourself to be able to have
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: the kind of structure right that you that you need.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I want to break this down further.
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  Speaker 1: This is great. I just recorded a podcast last week. Actually,
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  Speaker 1: it's benny interesting to say this. I was talking to
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: a commercial insurance broker. He's going around, you know, getting
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: quotes for their insurance of what they're doing in the business,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: and he was telling me how much he struggles with
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: getting a narrative, a clear narrative to the business. What
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: are you about? What are all the things that you're doing?
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: So I an advocate for you trying to get the
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: best coverage, the right coverage for but like to your point,
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  Speaker 1: I think it gets muddled and you're not and you
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: get kind of insular and you're like you know it
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: in your head maybe as a founder, but it's not
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: clear to the rest of it. So what I hear
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: you saying, Johnathan, come in and asking those questions like,
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  Speaker 1: hold on, let's clarify this. Are we doing the most
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  Speaker 1: important thing? Are we focus on the right things, the
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  Speaker 1: right metrics? And I know how important that is being
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: coached myself, because I still have coaches. I do know
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: I coach. I have outside people checking in on me
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: because I know I drift. I mean right, there's a
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: there's a drift or right, or your your course correcting
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  Speaker 1: is all the time, maybe not huge swings, but are
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  Speaker 1: we just making some adjustment?
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that that sort of external third party can
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: come in and can just ask you really like unsettlingly
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: simple questions like so where's this company going to be
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: in three years? And are we doing the things? Like
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: can you answer that in a simple sense, like do
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: you have a number in mind? Do you have you
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: know a series of markets in mind? Do you have
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: a product or service in mind that's new and different
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: than what you have today, and so you know, some
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: of the stuff just lives in our head but we
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: don't write it down. But having a board makes you
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  Speaker 2: communicate to it, makes you tell a persuasive story. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: you can strength test the idea. They can bring all
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: the wisdom from their hard earned scars that they've been through,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: and you know you can skip ahead. And it's just
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  Speaker 2: a really like a very calming way to show up
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  Speaker 2: and think about designing the future of your business and
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: your own trajectory as an owner or founder or CEO.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think just the question, like you said,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: where do you want to be in three I've had
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: a number of folks in the podcast in the mergers acquisition,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: selling or buying a business, and business owners are thinking
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: about that accession plan. It's just kind of like, oh,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: it's like a light switch. Well I'll just switch it.
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  Speaker 1: I'll just sell it or turn it off. It's like
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: it does not that easy, just right.
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  Speaker 2: Not at all. I Mean I have a good friend
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: of mine that's that's a management consultant as well, and
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: she always says, you know, like the offer comes when
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: you're at least ready, and so you know, like at
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: some point it will show up and so you know,
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  Speaker 2: on some level you should be ready at any time,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: is really the message that she has. And so, you know,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: like thinking about how your business is performing, knowing your numbers,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: knowing where you're weak and where you're strong, looking around
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: and asking yourself, you know, if I did have to
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: leave tomorrow, or if I had to step back from
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: the business, what might be my plan be Folks will say, oh, yeah,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: you know, I've got somebody in there and they could
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: step in. And so what I mostly hear when they're
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: talking about that as an emergency succession plan, Like somebody
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: could hold the fort for six weeks, somebody could hold
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: the fort for three months. But that's different than you know,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: what what might an acquisition look like? Or you know,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: if I want to retire in three to five years,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I need to have my plan now, because if it's
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: going to be you know, like in my case, like
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: a management buyout, it takes years. Like you know, you
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: have to have a transition plan, you have to get
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: financing in place, you have to make sure your customers
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: are calm about the transition. So you kind of want
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: of like, you know, make it smooth. So all of
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: these things take time. They take clarity, They take a
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: series of open conversations that you know, in some respect,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: the legal in the accounting stuff is actually the easy stuff.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: It's the emotional change that's the hardest part. Like it's
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: been your identity, right and you're going to give that
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: up now and you're going to hand it to somebody else,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: either you know, if it's private equity, or if it's
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: an employee buy art, or it's just a person down
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: the road that does something similar that wants to know
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: gobble you up. Whatever the case is, you're changed, and
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: once you're changed, you have to be able to go
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: on that emotional re engineering of who you are and
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: how you show up and how you're going to introduce
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: yourself at the Christmas party. And so all of those
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: things take time and they take care, and if you
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: can help it, it ought not be a surprise. And
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: I think you know, advisors can help boards. Advisory boards
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: can help prepare you because they're thinking about these other things.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: You're too deep in it, yeah, and too busy to
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: be worried about what's happening in three years and what's
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: my transition going to Bay? Right, So that you know,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: they're just more of the benefits to having more eyes
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: on on on the prize as it was.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I agree with you. I think I saw
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: the the negative effects being in the company. I would
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: say very I think the owners were very thoughtful, but
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: they didn't have a war. But you said what I
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: heard say, Jonathan, is maybe they would hire a consultant
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: here to come in once a year or do some
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: a little kind of picking at certain things. But it
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: wasn't holistic. And it felt like for me anyways and
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: my own personal journey as a part owner, it didn't
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: give me confidence that I knew where the company was.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: So it was ultimately led partly my departure for them.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: So I was part owner all part I just didn't
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: see the greater vision. I saw the original ownership, and
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I just not clear on this. And so
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: you know, I think to your point of having a
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: regular quarterly meeting together, you know, looking at things, asking
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: the tougher questions that I think, you know, we're we
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: like to think we're logical, but to your point, you know,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of emotion tied into things, and it's
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: like being objective, right, you're objectively, like you're very following it,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: but you know, kind of looking at this from a
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: different perspective, right, totally, totally, yeah, I mean, I mean,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: because I see many business owners struggle, the founders or
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: like you said, to your point, I'm working with them,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: develop the team, but they're wanting to involved with so
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: many aspects of the business. Have all the answers. As
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: a board you're coming in, can't can't be making all
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: the decisions, right.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: No, No boards can help with lots of that. Like
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: you know, if if your goal is to work more
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: on the business and less in the business, and that's
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: you know, sort of almost a cliche thing that people
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: like to say that they want, but you know, I
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: just don't see it very often, you know. And people
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: they are founders that you know, grow and grow and grow,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: especially in service based businesses. You know, they hit the
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: twenty thirty market and they're just in the value of death. Right.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: It's the processes and systems that just kill them. It's
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: the it, it's the people's stuff, it's the delegation, and
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: these are the complex systems that you need to be
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: able to build so you can continue to add and
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: add and add and ultimately scale. Right. So theoretically, we
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: all know this when you're in it, though. Man, it's
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: just so tough because it's not theoretical, Like it's not
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: like let's add middle management and build out process and systems.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: It's like Bob and Sally and like, it's the individual
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: humans and you've got to move them around, you've got
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: to train them, you've got to delegate to them, you
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: have a history with them. This stuff is really tough, right,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: And I think it's you know, always to your advantage
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: to be able to pull back and pull up, and
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: whatever you can do to allow you to do that
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: in a regular, informed way, whether it's you know, a
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: coach or whether it's an advisor or whether it's an
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: advisory board is right for you and your journey just
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: allows you to have that second set of eyes that
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: pause and reflect. Uh, here's how I've seen it done elsewhere.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Here's some things that are coming up for me. Tell
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: me what you've already tried. Like for folks to ask
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: those kinds of questions and or share, uh, you know,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: their own experience just helps you, you know, just rattles
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: your cage and just the right way. Right.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: No, I love that, so you know, so say it's
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: the business owner that they're hearing this. Hopefully you're hearing
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: this thing. You know what, I could use an advisory
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: I don't have that. What are the questions that should
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: ask you? Because I mean they could say, well, I'll
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: just grab this person. What I heard you say, Jonathan,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: you're bringing that board together, whether you're tearing it or
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: a big part of it. But I hear you. You
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: got to get the right mix of people that kind
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: of work together because you don't have these people like
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: clashing against each other. Well, I think this one that's like,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: how are we looking realistically at the business again? Yeah,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'm glad you asked that. So, you know, a
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: grown up board, like not an advisory board, but a
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: board board, right from a slightly larger company. They've probably
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: got some ownership stake, or maybe it's just a fiduciary board. Right,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: they're actually in charge of the company and they're ultimately
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: making those decisions. An advisory board, that's not true. It's
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: just a group of humans that wrap around you, that
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: walk with you, and that they're ultimately giving you the
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: best advice, asking their best questions, bringing their lived experience.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: But you're not paying them to you know, actually hold
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: fiduciary accountability for the for the company. So that's the
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: difference we need to make that demarcation. But if you're
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: a small and medium sized business and you think, gee,
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: you know, meeting every quarter with three or four people
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: like in an ongoing way where I could tell my
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: sub stories too, and I could get some clear advice
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: and they could really you know, like ask me the
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: hard questions and hold me accountable and all that that
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: sounds attractive to you. The best way to start is
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: to find one person in your social network that has
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: board experience and has been on either advisory boards or
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: boards before. And if you can find that person, bring
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: them in and ask them about what it could look
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: like for them to set the board up for you,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: not for you to set the whole board up yourself.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: So this is the first act of letting go, my friends.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: But find somebody who you know like and trust, or
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: somebody that you admire and say, you've been here before,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: you've been in this sector before, or you're just somebody
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: in my community or in my network that I really
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: you know, have come to come to know. I'm thinking
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: about an advisory board. I'm wondering whether I could hire
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: you to be my inaugural board chair, and would you
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: go about interviewing me, getting to know the company, and
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: figuring out who the right people are to be on
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: this board. And so by delegating that task up and
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: finding somebody that you trust, you're going to bring them on.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Maybe you bring them mind for a year contract or
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: a two year contract to just literally be the inaugural
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: board hereing to set it up. They're going to do
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: things like create a matrix and a skills matrix. They're
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: gonna like interview you, take a good look at the company,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: take a look at the competition, get a real sense
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: of where you're strong and where there might be some gaps,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: a sense from you about where your company may be going.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: And then they're going to go out and they're going
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: to tap either tap their network informally or maybe even formally,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: look at staffing the rest of the advisory board. So
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: maybe maybe a process and systems in accounting just aren't
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: that strong, and maybe you know that, and maybe you think, God,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: imagine having a chartered accountant on the advisory board. Somebody
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: that had you know, has recently retired and has just
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: got a wealth of experience. They're not going to do
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: that accounting work, but what they will do is ask
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: really hard questions about your P and L and your
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: balance sheet and how you're moving your money around and
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: you know what your margins are like or what your
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: churn rates like. Right, they're going to know the right
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: questions to ask and as and when you get ready
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: to hire into let's say finance, you've got somebody in
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: your back pocket who can sit in on those interviews.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: You've got somebody who you could whose network you can access.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: And that's just one example. Maybe it's marketing, maybe it's it,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: maybe it's law. Like whatever is going on for you
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: in your business, you're going to have some blind spots
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: and some weaknesses, some areas of strength and allowing and
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: delegating that to a board shair to kind of build
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: it for you. Then, because the board is going to
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: gel with itself, you'll sit on the board as well
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: as the owner or owners like you'll sit on the board.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: But having you know those folks built out around you
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: creates it like a just a powerful bench strength.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, no, I love how you say that, that wrap
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: around I think that's such a great image me as
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: you're hearing business owners, I have that trusted hopefully you do.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Hopefully have a couple of people like to your point, Jonathan,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: find that person and engage them. Is Jonathan here and
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: say hey, how where can I get started? How could
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I do? I think what I'm hearing you say, Jonathan, like,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: you know, we want to get ahead of this and
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: not make those same mistakes all behind if you and
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: be better prepared for what comes if like you said,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: that day will come with somebody wants to buy your business,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: or or there's a maybe a legal challenge, or there's
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: some other elements in there, like how did you get
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: through you know? How did you handle you know, there's
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: a pr blow up?
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: You know what? How do we handle this?
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah? Like I think that the difference between a
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: one off, like hiring a consultant as a one off
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: is like, yeah, you might have a problem. They'll come
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: in and they'll understand it, and they'll like you'll pay
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: them to understand your problem and then hopefully they're going
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: to help you fix it. Great. A board's different. A
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: board is going to walk with you along the way
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: and they're there with you and so as you you know,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: have you got the one off problems. Yep, You've also
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: got access to their rolodexes and to their networks, and uh,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: they're gonna it's not going to be brand new information
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: for them. So if if one of your goals is
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: to sell a business, then you know you should be
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: finding people to sit on your advisory board that have
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: sold businesses absolutely right, right, and so they can you know,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: they've they've lived that experience and they're going to go
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: through it and they're going to be able to bring
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: that experience and the g I wish I hads to
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: you and to your benefit. Also ps when you're putting
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: yourself up for sale or when folks are looking at
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: your business, if you've got a really nice blue chip
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: advisory board wrapped around you and they've been with you
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: for a couple of years, very calming for a potential
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: buyer m Because other people with social capital and experience
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: are willing to put their name on this business and
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: be involved and engaged with this business. That says good
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: things to me as a potential buyer. I get comfort
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: from that. It's not everything, but like it's another contributing
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: fact to the perception of value.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, John No, that makes sense to me because look,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: they've surrounded themselves. They're preparing themselves for some form of
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: selling succession whatever that might look like. You're asking the questions,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: but I also hear you say, Jonathan, what is this business?
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: What is this? The goal of this in those part
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: of the core, But why do you do exist? Is
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: that still clear? In the marketplace? Thing obviously change, right
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: in companies that do a change and adapt, they're still here.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: The ones that don't, uh, they you know, the Blockbusters
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: the world, the Code Acts of the world. There's things
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: that the things shifted in the marketplace, right, and they
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: didn't adjust. And I think sometimes because I think that, well,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I know the answer instead of having this outside official board,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: a full board or an advisory But I think hearing this,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: I hope everybody's hearing this. You can get this in place.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: How much more adds to the overall value of the
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: company as the owner and really the enhances it to
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: I would say, everybody goes down like as you're talking
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: with the ownership, but it's really you know, it affects
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: the employees, even I would say, the subcontractors and other
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: relationships that they have right with their vendors.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: And it really should.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Yep. Absolutely. I know we're getting close to into the
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: podcast here, and I think that we'll have to have
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: you come back because there's so many great elements here
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: and we're gonna make sure everybody can connect with you
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Cleland dot com or Jonathan and I are connected on
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: LinkedIn and we'll make sure everything's on in the show notes.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: He has his own podcast as well, so you catch
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: him there. We're glad you're here, Jonathan, but I want
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: to give you an opportunity just for final takeaways as
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: we're kind of like looking at this. You've given us
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of things to talk about, from de corpse
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: to what look makes a great board member. But you know,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: if there's anything that we should maybe take away. If
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: CEO's are on the fence about boards or succession, what
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: would you what would you share with them or wrapping
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: up this episode?
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like there's no time like the present. If some
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: of the things that you and I David have been
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: talking about are kind of twigging for you, move it
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: from there. I should get to that to the I'll
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: do it and put it in your calendar and book
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: yourself an appointment with yourself to actually get at these things.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: I think that we can, the busyness of running a
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: business can just push everything that's you know, important but
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: not urgent off into the future until it comes and
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: bites us. And so make it urgent, make it, you know,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: take the urgent and sorry, take the important and make
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: it urgent and and take action. And so if that
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: looks like just taking a couple of meetings with some
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: folks in your community that are ten years and fifteen
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: years ahead of you in business, or maybe they're just
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: potential good board members, and just start having some strategic conversations,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: like even if it's like off in the distance for you,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: like I don't even know how to answer the question
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: where might you know? Where might my business be in
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: ten years? What a wonderful opening salvo to a coffee? Yes, right,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Like I'm thinking that I don't even know where my
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: business might be going in ten years? Like did that
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: ever happen to you? Right? Imagine opening a coffee with that,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: and like the stories will flow, the relationships can build,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: and you can start to frame out what your business
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: might need, whether it's an advisory board, whether it's an
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: advisor or a coach, somebody to kind of walk with
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: you and support you on whatever is to come, as
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: opposed to just letting it arrive with a big old bah.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Right right, Well, it's it's building a life of business
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: by design, not just kind of like default, like just
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: whatever comes along. Totally. Jonathan, thank you so much for
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: being here on the podcast. It really is a pleasure
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: having you Jonathan. All you can follow on here on
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: the Business Round a podcast like subscribe, leave a comment,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: we'll make sure Jonathan gets it again. Jonathan, thanks again for.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: All right, thanks everybody, take care. Until next time, be well,