Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Tim Muehlhoff: ‘End The Stalemate’ With Meaningful Conversations

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Tim Muehlhoff: ‘End The Stalemate’ With Meaningful Conversations · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:00
  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
• 0:10
  defending biblical Christianity.
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  No topic off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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  Hey, friends.
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  God bless you.
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  Thank you so much for tuning in.
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  We're going to be talking about a pretty important book today called End the Stale
• 0:26
  Mate, End the Stale Mate, moved past cancel culture to meaningful conversations.
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  I've got one of the authors with us, and I'll get to him in a minute, but I want to thank
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  a few friends who've been sending in donations.
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  Again, we are not in our fundraising season, but we are thankful for every donation that
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  comes in.
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  So shout out to Lisa from Manitouac, Wisconsin, and also Linda from Moore Park, California.
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  They both requested a copy of my book, Assault on the Image of God.
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  Let's come in your way, ladies, thank you.
• 0:58
  And India from Louisiana, Gail from Minnesota, thank you guys so very much.
• 1:04
  We appreciate it.
• 1:05
  So today, I'm very blessed, you know, we've had Sean McDowell on the podcast before, and
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  he co-wrote a book with today's guest, Tim Mulehoff.
• 1:14
  So Tim is a co-author.
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  He is also a professor of communication at Biola University in La Marotta, California.
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  He teaches classes in conflict resolution, apologetics, gender and family communication.
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  He's also a co-director of Biola's Winsome Conviction Project, and I can give you that
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  website.
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  It is WinsomeConviction.com.
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  We'll be talking a little bit about that.
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  And Tim has written extensively in the area of cultural engagement.
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  Thank you.
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  And conflict, including beg to differ.
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  That was a previous book.
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  And of course, his newest book co-written with Sean McDowell and the stale mate, Tim Mulehoff.
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  Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
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  Good to see you, brother.
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  Thank you.
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  Thank you, David.
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  Glad to be here.
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  I'm so glad you had Sean on already.
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  We're both fans of him.
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  He's great.
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  Yeah.
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  He is.
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  He is amazing.
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  And of course, his dad, right?
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  Josh.
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  So I was out in Southern California for 17 years, lived in Orange County for a while, then
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  moved to LA.
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  Very familiar with Biola.
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  I've been there to the campus.
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  I knew a professor there.
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  Share a little bit about how you got connected with Biola.
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  And then, of course, how you and Sean McDowell connected and then to bring about this book.
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  Well, before I became a professor, me and my wife were on staff with campus crusade for
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  Christ through for almost 25 years.
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  And I was part of something called the communications center.
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  Drew was forward thinking enough to create a center on evangelism and apologetics, because
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  we saw culture starting to shift to move away from the Christian perspective.
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  Sean was a student of mine, laid back in the day.
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  And obviously, I just looked at him and thought, my goodness, not only are you an amazing
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  communicator, but God's hand is on you.
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  And so now we're both at Biola together.
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  And his YouTube channel has nearly 300,000 followers.
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  So I love the fact that he doesn't just know apologetics, he's a practitioner.
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  So we both are concerned about today's argument culture.
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  And I said, Sean, let's get together and do something.
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  And so the end result was this book and the stalemate.
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  Well, anyhow, on the website, by the way, it's on Amazon friends, but there's a website
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  end the stalemate.com.
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  It says, yes, we live in cancel culture.
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  But that doesn't mean that we as Christians need to conform to our world.
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  Instead, we can be a beacon of sanity that promotes meaningful conversations around what matters
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  most in this life and the next.
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  So that's end the stalemate.com, the book by Sean McDowell, Tim Mulehoff.
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  So Tim, tell us about, before we get into the contents of the book, tell us about the
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  podcast, win some conviction.
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  And then there's a website there, people you guys can go to win some conviction.com.
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  Tell us what that project's all about.
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  Well, it was funded by two donors who are concerned, just like all Americans, that we're
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  honestly losing the ability to talk to each other.
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  It was a survey that was done two years ago by Pew Research, 98 percent, David, think
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  about that.
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  98 percent of Americans would say, in civility is a threat to this country, 65 percent
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  would say, I think we're at crisis levels of incivility.
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  And this is left, right, center, we're all concerned about incivility.
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  We just don't know what to do about it.
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  And so that's why the win some conviction project was created is Christians, you know,
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  Jesus said, blessed are the peacemakers.
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  We should be opening lines of communication with everybody, those within the Christian
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  community and those without.
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  But we honest, David, we're doing a really poor job of being an example to people of how
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  to have passionate conversations that are civil, taking our lead from the Apostle Paul.
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  But do it in love.
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  I don't think our reputation as Christians is that we speak with love, charity, grace.
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  And I think we're missing a golden opportunity to that 98 percent of Americans.
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  We can have hard conversations, but do it in a way that's charitable.
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  So let me just ask you right off the top.
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  Yeah, I love the co or the subtitle move past cancel culture because obviously we're
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  in that.
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  Christians are being discriminated against, being censored, you know, being shadow banned,
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  being, you know, taken off as certain, you know, social media and shouted down, obviously,
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  we don't have popular voices because the truth is not popular.
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  But it says move past cancel culture to meaningful conversations.
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  So Tim, what advice would you give people who are watching or listening right now that
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  are wanting to have these conversations?
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  And maybe they're being shouted down or they're being, I mean, some people get pretty
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  hostile because Jesus is offensive.
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  The truth is offensive and it doesn't matter how you present it.
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  You can be the most loving.
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  You can tip toe.
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  You can bring flowers and say, Jesus is the only way the truth and that's going to offend
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  people no matter how you say it.
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  So just right off the top, people can their guards are up.
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  It seems like they're so defensive.
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  What can you share with people who want to have these conversations?
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  Well, David, I would say we need to learn to practice as Christians with each other first
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  that good Christians can disagree about a multitude of issues.
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  The Bible does the freedom to disagree on certain theological issues or political issues
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  or social issues.
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  Now, obviously, there are things that make us evangelical, right?
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  Subvation found in Christ alone, the Bible is inspired in Aaron, the physical resurrection
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  of Jesus, but there's a bunch of other issues that we have the freedom to disagree with
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  each other like how we're going to vote in November, remember with mask mandates, churches
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  took very different positions.
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  We could talk about the use of preferred pronouns.
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  I think there's leeway that Christians can both say, yeah, I'm never going to use a preferred
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  pronoun, but others could say there would be situations that I would.
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  But David, at that point, you see how poor we do allowing each other to disagree.
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  I have a friend of mine who wrote a nuanced book on critical race theory, nuanced, which
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  means he both talked about the concerns of critical race theory, but also said, but I think
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  it can also be used by Christians to understand this really complicated issue of race.
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  He got fired from a Christian organization for writing a nuanced book on critical race
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  theory.
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  So we better do a better job with each other, and that's why we created the website, David
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  and the stalemate.com.
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  You're going to go there and you're going to learn and understand two Christians who really
• 8:26
  disagree with each other, very articulate Christians.
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  Someone is going to argue, listen, I know President Trump's a little rougher on the edges.
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  He says things I wish he wouldn't say, but when you look at his platform, I think a Christian
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  has to vote for President Trump.
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  You're going to take a look at another Christian on this website who's going to say, I can't.
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  I cannot vote for President Trump because of some of the things he says, the way he says
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  that and some of the things he's endorsed.
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  Now if your listeners are listening to what I just said and they're saying, oh, come
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  on, that one perspective is ridiculous, Christian can read their Bible and have that perspective.
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  We call that mind blindness, which means a person is all good or all bad.
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  And the website is going to teach you basic skills.
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  It's totally free.
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  You don't need to have read the book to do it.
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  But we're going to start with your heart attitude.
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  The Bible talks about the heart 500 times.
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  And Jesus said, it is from the heart that you speak.
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  So the first thing we're going to do on this website is we're going to address our heart.
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  Like do we allow for Christians to disagree on how we're going to vote when November comes?
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  Oh my goodness, you said you shared so much there Tim, but I just want to give the website
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  again, and the stalemate.com, it is important to agree to disagree lovingly and respectfully
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  when it is not a doctrinal, you know, any sensual of the faith or a doctrinal issue.
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  Obviously, there's some wacky beliefs out there.
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  But when it comes to politics and that's what we're heading toward a big election in
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  November, I mean, then you've got the 30 million Christians who don't even vote.
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  That's a problem, but the ones that do and take opposing sides, it does for someone
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  that reads the Bible, it does seem like this is a world view issue, Tim, I'm going to go
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  to one of the questions that I wanted to ask.
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  And that is you point out that we've become increasingly polarized in our country.
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  And it's not just about politics, it's about almost everything.
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  But what do you see as the reasons behind us becoming so polarized?
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  David is a great question.
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  And honestly, we could take the rest of this interview to try to answer that question.
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  We had Arthur Brooks, the Harvard researcher on our podcast.
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  And Brooks said, America doesn't have an anger problem.
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  We have a contempt problem.
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  So I asked him, okay, what's the difference?
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  He said, anger is you and I can be mad at each other, but we stay in the relationship.
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  Right, but we still continue to go to the same church.
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  We're part of a family, we're part of our neighbors.
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  Contempt is, yeah, this church would be better off without you.
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  You're a family member, but I'm cutting off all communication with you.
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  By the way, a survey was done on the 2016 presidential election.
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  33% of respondents said, I no longer talk to a family member
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  because of how they voted in the 2016 presidential election.
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  That's contempt.
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  And I think as Christians, we call says in Romans 14, when he's talking about days
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  and diets with Jewish and Gentile believers, I do not want you to have contempt for each other.
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  I want you to stay in fellowship.
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  So long as it's a, you know, it's a, a disputable matter, not a theological matter,
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  a core theological matter, but David, we're splitting over everything.
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  Mass mandates, churches are splitting over race issues.
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  68% Christianity today asked pastors in America, if you could quit today, would you do it?
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  If you could swing it, 48% David said, I'd quit today if I could swing it financially.
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  And the reason why, how my congregants talk to each other.
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  What, wait a minute, what was that last part?
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  How, so top five reasons, number three, how congregants, the people in my church,
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  talk to each other when they disagree.
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  How they talk on social media, how we talk to each other face to face, church members no longer talking to each other,
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  boy, cutting a church service because I won't sit in a pew next to that purse.
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  And that's what the Winsome Conviction Project tries to help churches open up these lines of conversation.
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  And David, in five years, we've been in existence.
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  People are splitting literally over everything you could think of.
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  And, and yeah, we've seen it.
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  It's sad, people breaking fellowship over things.
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  Like I said, there aren't, aren't essentials of the Christian faith or the doctrines that we need to stand by.
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  And it is sad.
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  We are to contend for the faith, but not being, not be contentious when we contend for the faith, right, Tim?
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  Okay, so by the way, friends, we're speaking with an author, Tim Mulehoff.
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  He's also Biola Professor, Biola University.
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  When we come back from our break, I'm going to ask him how does social media
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  encourage us to dehumanize others?
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  And that's where a lot of the fight is out there online.
• 13:52
  We'll be right back on World View Matters.
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  Or you can just go to WorldView Matters.tv and hit the contact there.
• 14:48
  The website, again, friends, end the stalemate.com.
• 14:51
  The book end the stalemate is also available on Amazon.
• 14:55
  The other website we want to make sure you have is win some,
• 14:59
  win some conviction.com.
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  So Tim Mulhoff is with us, our guest today,
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  co-wrote the book with Sean McDowell.
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  Tim, so what about social media?
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  What about people having, what do they call it?
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  Keyboard courage or something like that?
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  They're alone at home and they can say whatever,
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  because they're not going to get immediate pushback or feedback.
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  So how does social media encourage us to almost dehumanize others?
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  So I'm not going to dehumanize social media.
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  It is both the problem and the solution to today's argument culture.
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  So we have to embrace that right out of the gates.
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  Social media isn't going anywhere.
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  And we need to be able to model on social media how to have productive,
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  civil conversations.
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  So I would say it's exactly what you said,
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  that dehumanization happens because I'm not face to face.
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  So imagine you and I are at a coffee shop
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  and we're having this disagreement.
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  I would at least have to watch the volume,
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  because I don't want other people to be turning around looking at us.
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  Because we're face to face, I would relit in a little bit.
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  I wouldn't call you a derogatory name,
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  because I'd have to actually live with the consequences of that.
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  And so this keyboard courage you talk about really is true.
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  I just let it rip when I watch something on YouTube.
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  I don't censor what I say.
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  I make black and white statements about people.
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  People are all good, all bad.
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  And I would just say to fellow Christians,
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  Jesus is serious when he says,
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  you will be held accountable for every word that you utter.
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  And he mentions a word careless, David,
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  which in the Greek means that is like spur of the moment.
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  A careless word is one that I've not really thought about.
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  But I'm going to just react.
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  And I think that describes a lot of YouTube communication
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  is in real time I'm responding where I've not had the time to process.
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  And so what does Paul say?
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  Speak truth.
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  But if you can't do it in love, don't do it.
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  Peter, probably one of the most famous apologetic passages in the entire Bible,
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  be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in you, Peter says.
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  But do it with reverence and gentleness.
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  So I would say to all Christians,
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  if you can't do it with reverence and gentleness, speak the truth,
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  then I don't care what the medium is.
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  I don't care if it's a talk at a coffee shop or online.
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  You have to weigh both the content of what you're about to say,
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  but it has to be married with gentleness reverence.
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  And I think today we're just not doing that particularly on social media.
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  People are saying the nastiest things.
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  David, we actually did a conversation, me and Sean on preferred pronouns.
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  Sean is of the opinion that he would never use a preferred pronoun
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  and has really good reasons for that.
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  I would, depending on the situation,
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  and we both go to the scriptures to make our argument.
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  So we posted it on his YouTube channel,
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  and I'm literally writing an essay on Christian Scholars Review,
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  journal on the comment section.
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  And this is all public information.
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  I mean, you posted this publicly.
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  I won't mention themes or anything,
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  but people are saying things like,
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  there's no way you can read the Bible and have Miohoff's perspective.
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  I can't believe Biola would hire a person like Miohoff.
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  So if I understand it correctly,
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  Miohoff thinks it's just AOK to flat out lie to a person.
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  And to be honest, those are some of the nice ones, David.
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  So I'm, I'm, I'm semi calling them out.
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  Say, by the way, on Sean's channel,
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  a lot of non-Christians watch Sean's channel.
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  Sean does a great job inviting atheist thinkers on treats him really well.
• 19:10
  Yeah, yeah.
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  There are comments.
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  Hey, I'm, so here are Christians watching two Christians
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  trying to have a civil conversation about a delicate issue.
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  And these are the comments that they're saying,
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  what is wrong with you, Christian?
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  And I think we need, I think we need to take that as a rebuke and think about it.
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  You don't have to agree with me or Sean,
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  but have a respectful attitude as we agree with each other.
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  Yeah, that's such a good point because you, you see Christians argue and you,
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  you, you just think to yourself that cannot be a good witness to the world.
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  The, I mean, now, again, when there are serious doctrinal issues or essentials,
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  we must sometimes sharply disagree.
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  But, biblically, but we really do need to be better communicators.
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  And Sean, I remember when he was on, he was telling the story.
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  I, CNN contacted him.
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  The producers wanted him to comment on something.
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  And he agreed to do it.
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  And then they, they said, well, I'm sorry, we can't have you on.
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  And he said, why said you're just too compassionate.
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  Do you remember that?
• 20:23
  No, I don't, I don't remember.
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  Was that during COVID?
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  I don't remember what it was, but he shared this story.
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  So CNN's, they want, they want the fire.
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  They want either, they want, they want the, the old, what was those, those old shows on TV,
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  Jerry Springer and all the, the nonsense shows where they get people to fire up and talk and fight
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  with each other. That's what a lot of reality TV is.
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  It's not reality.
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  It's just through people up, up enough, get them in a bad situation, get them to fight against each other.
• 20:48
  Anyway, I'm off the track a little bit, Tim.
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  But I wanted to ask you about civil engagement because it's a huge problem in America.
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  My personal conviction is we are here because the church has not been engaged and the church has
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  not been voting biblically speaking about issues, you know, side of the Sunday morning at church,
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  you know, Monday through Saturday.
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  And that's a huge problem.
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  But why do you think people are hungry for civil engagement?
• 21:18
  Well, I honestly think, David, they're, they're looking at the trajectory of where this is going.
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  And we just got back from Capitol Hill.
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  We were invited by three Christian ministries to go to Capitol Hill and the Pentagon and speak with
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  people on both sides of the aisle. So let me say this, they're sick of the instability as well.
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  And let me, so the assassination attempt on President Trump, it was condemned by everybody.
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  But I think there's some people who would say that that doesn't necessarily surprise me
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  that our words have turned into violence, actual violence.
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  So that's the 98% of Americans who are saying, listen, we can't, we can't do this.
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  David, it gives the church a beautiful opportunity to be a counter example.
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  But like we're convicted people, we feel very strongly about pro-life issues, religious freedom,
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  traditional marriage. But how we talk about it, our compassionate response is what's going to
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  really set us apart. So in the book, we offer different ways of approaching hard conversations.
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  And the very first way is something called brick allage, which is I attempt to piece together
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  your perspective of all the experiences that you've had in the past.
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  I'm not going to jump in and disagree with you right out of the gates.
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  I want to collect information about you, your history.
• 22:45
  There's something called narrative injury.
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  Like what have been the moments in your life that you've been hurt?
• 22:51
  Even hurt by God. I debated a YouTube atheist live in one of my classes.
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  And when he was nine years old, he started to feel depression take root.
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  And his parents were very religious. And his parents said, listen, pray, God can heal you.
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  So he took a whole year and prayed to God as a nine year old. Nothing happened.
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  It got worse. And he walked away from God.
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  Listen, if my first response to that is, okay, I'm going to jump into my apologetic
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  defense of the problem of evil. I've written two introductory apologetic books.
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  I have an argument for the problem of evil. I think God is so good.
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  But is that the time to do it? I think that's the time to empathize with this man saying,
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  my goodness, how frustrating that must have been to hear that God loves you from your parents
• 23:48
  is all powerful. And you pray and God won't help a nine year old.
• 23:53
  Yeah.
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  I mean, at least feel the pain burst rather than jumping to my three-part argument,
• 24:01
  which by the way, I actually believe that three-part argument, I actually, God is good in the
• 24:07
  presence of evil. That is not the time, the time for me to empathize and correct or disagree.
• 24:16
  Okay, there's a proverb I'm thinking about. I'm paraphrasing it. A wise heart ponders how to
• 24:21
  answer. Meaning we don't respond right away. No knee jerk reactions. We ponder. Sometimes there's
• 24:27
  we get counsel on how to respond. But were you kind of referring to what you talk about in the book,
• 24:33
  sympathetic awareness when what you just explained? Oh, so we've had podcasts not have us on
• 24:41
  because of my chapters. Let me just be honest, my chapters. Because sympathetic awareness is this.
• 24:47
  I was a theater major at Eastern Michigan University in a department that every professor was gay,
• 24:54
  every single professor wasn't just gay. They were militantly gay. Yeah. But like they were really
• 25:01
  promoting a worldview. I became a senior. Remember, I'm now a student with Campus Crusade for Christ.
• 25:07
  My senior year, you do a performance live. It's open to the public. And I really felt led by the
• 25:14
  spirit to do a monologue from the gay activist play bent, where one character horse is is is talking
• 25:24
  about his love that he had for another male prisoner, but never showed it while he was alive.
• 25:29
  And now that prisoner has tragically been executed by the Nazi guards. And I did that monologue,
• 25:35
  just the show to my gay faculty and friends. Listen, I'm not oblivious to your pain. Like you all
• 25:43
  know where I'm coming from. Come on guys, we've had this argument for four years. You know where I
• 25:49
  stand on on sexuality. But I also want to remind you, I feel your pain. David, we've had
• 25:58
  major podcasts say no to having the book because they say you're condoning the gay perspective.
• 26:09
  I said, I'm not. I'm really not. I'm advertising. And then I want to have a conversation about it.
• 26:18
  But remember that old adage, David, that's so true. People do not care what you think
• 26:24
  until they know that you care. And I think it's Christians. We don't believe that's true.
• 26:31
  I lead with truth. I don't lead with love. And I think in today's argument culture, we might
• 26:37
  lead with love as we're moving towards the truth. I love, you know, the gospel of John, how he says
• 26:45
  in verse 14, Jesus was, Jesus was the perfect balance, all grace, all truth, full of grace,
• 26:53
  full of truth. And it's something to strive for. But Tim Mulehof, author and professor, we want to
• 26:58
  encourage people to go to the website and the stalemate.com and also win some conviction.com.
• 27:06
  We really appreciate it, brother. I know the book is going to help a lot of people. It sure is
• 27:11
  timely with a big election coming up in weeks, not not even months. It's coming up soon.
• 27:16
  But thanks for your time. And God bless you. Hopefully we'll do this again.
• 27:20
  Thank you, David. I really appreciate you're having me on.
• 27:23
  Not an out of promise or great, great podcast. So check out that book.
• 27:26
  Friend sounds wonderful or at least go to the podcast, win some conviction. And we appreciate
• 27:32
  you guys again, empowering the show under God's sovereignty. We'll keep doing it. God bless you.
• 27:38
  And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.