Latest / GARAGE TO STADIUMS Music History Podcast / The Story of Alice Cooper: The man who innovated concert events
Transcript
- David Anthony 0:01 Hi there. I'm Dave Anthony and this is the garage to stadiums podcast. On each episode we tell you the story of how one of our music legends rose from obscurity to fame and play some of the songs that mark that journey. Welcome to today's garage to stadium episode featuring the story of Alice Cooper. Our guest today is reg Harca, who's spent considerable time with Alice and produced a documentary on him. But first some facts about Alice Cooper. Alice Cooper, whose original name was Vince Ferny. A was born in 1948. In Detroit, Michigan, Vince or Alice is known as the godfather of sharp rock a blend of hard rock and elaborate stage productions. His pioneering elaborate stage show launched in the early 70s featured electric chairs, guillotines, fake blood and live boa constrictor snakes in his band have sold over 50 million albums he has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame has appeared in a variety of movies and television shows and is even an accomplished golfer with an incredibly low handicap of five to discuss the story of Alice Cooper today as our guest, Reg hakama, an award winning director of the documentary superduper Alice Cooper, his other music documentary work includes the episode, hail Britpop from the popular Netflix series. This is pop a reg, welcome to garage to stadiums. Reg Harkema 1:30 Great to be here. Thanks for having me. David Anthony 1:31 People have their perceptions of Alice, the legend, the horror, part of his shows the whole bit, give us a sense of what he's really like, what did you think going in? And what did you really think when you came out? Reg Harkema 1:42 I started doing a bit of a deep dive into the stuff and it was just kind of like, whoa, this shit is as good as like, you know, those those early 70s albums are as good as the, you know, stones mountains of that time. So I really got into it in with a messianic fervor like, you know, why is this guy as an artist, like, you know, not not recognized as, as much as he shouldn't be. But the entirety of the time that I was with him, it was just like, you know, he was on he was kind of he was Vince but he was Alice, he was like being interviewed. So he was some level of Alice and that was, you know, erudite, funny, just easygoing guy. You know, the only time I think I ever actually met Alice, the person, like the Vince guy was like, you know, some 15 minute conversation that we had after the premiere of hot dogs. And you know, we're at a party afterwards, and I just ended up sitting beside him. And it was like, Oh, the cameras aren't on and he just, you know, be himself but he started asking me questions about me. was a little off putting for a second, you know, but it was just like a nice 15 minutes of meeting. Alice, the guy that's David Anthony 2:57 interesting. The take us back, because you mentioned Vince, tell us about the early life of Alice, where'd he grow up, tell us about his family life. And you know, what ultimately uprooted the family from where they they started out? Well, Reg Harkema 3:12 he was born in Detroit and his father was a pastor of like, some kind of Mormon offshoot, and they moved out of Detroit because Alice had this asthma problem, and his doctors recommended that he'd be in like a warmer climate. So that's why they ended up going to Arizona. And the kind of principal thing that happened in his life was that he as a child was that he got appendicitis, but he didn't tell his parents. And so for a week, he just let this appendicitis fester, and his his God until his appendage exploded. And then it was like, Oh, my God, this is serious. And he was like, literally in hospital and like the doctors like he, you know, he's got like a day to live. And his dad brought in not not into the hospital that brought together the whole congregation and they prayed and they prayed. And they prayed. And the next day Alice was like, fine sitting up in a hospital bed and reading an Archie comic. Right. So the God thing is checked with Alice is entire life. But I totally understand how, you know having a miracle becoming a rock star you still believe? Yeah, David Anthony 4:24 and your documentary features several people have played a role analysis life, including Dennis Dunaway, a childhood friend of instance, from Phoenix, who later forms a high school band with Vince. Ultimately, he actually becomes the basis for the Alice Cooper band but before that, as teenage friends, Dennis and Vince share a deep interest in art. And you show Alice to be a pretty good artist, but tell us about their love of a certain type of art and how that infuse their future direction with music and stage shows. Reg Harkema 4:53 Well, these guys were in art school in High School in Phoenix, right and I mean, if you can like Put yourself in the mindset of like, you know, three major network television and no internet, right? Like, I mean, what are you doing for like, you know, interest in visual stimulation and suddenly like, you know, a teacher is handing you these books with like crazy pictures from like, Renee McGorry to George Brock and Salvador Dali. Mostly, you know, if you're like a disaffected, more teenagers as like any teenager you can be and in the mid 60s, like, you would probably gravitate towards that. So they kept this kind of like aesthetic and interest in like Datus art and surrealism as an aesthetic going forward. But then they married it with the Beatles, because you know, they're in high school and like 63 in America, right? And then 64 Boom, The Beatles come along and Beatlemania like covers America. So eventually, they you know, pick up guitars and you know, Dennis's case of bass and Vince became a singer. But, you know, as they evolved, they started bringing in more of the artistic aesthetic, they had like coffins on stage. And like, you know, spider webs, obviously, and that that was like, you know, early stages toward moving into a kind of a theatrical presentation. David Anthony 6:23 I mean, you know, tell us how they settled on the rather bizarre name of Alice Cooper. Yeah, Reg Harkema 6:28 that is the the L Alice Cooper. Name is you know, it's it's fraught in a lot of misinformation, you know, the mythological story is that they pulled out a witchy board and formed the name Alice Cooper, I mean, you know, Neil Smith, the drummer stands by that and so it's it was the most visually interesting explanation of the name so David Anthony 6:56 the story of how the Alice Cooper band came to their look and genre has an interesting twist. While they can't seem to crack the market in LA with their music the guys and Alice Cooper bought all those glittery clothes you know 10 cents a pound or something at the local thrift store Alice's they look like full size Barbie dolls and as you said, the performances start to shock the audience's Reg Harkema 7:18 she know Alice will joke today like yeah, we weren't that good. So we needed something something else were that good as players we didn't have to saw him so we need something else to attract them. But so finally, Frank Zappa came down to see them and they did a show that was like so horrific that three quarters of the audience just basically ran screaming to the doors. And Frank Zappa was like whoa, anyone cause that reaction? You know, I want to put on my label because he'd gotten this like kind of like boutique label that that was was was funded by his own label. David Anthony 7:59 Right, let's play a tune off that we're gonna play a song called Living. Reg listening to that album sounds like it's the fetal Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Jefferson Airplane co parented a child it would be this album, it's very psychedelic. Reg Harkema 8:43 Any number of like, late 60s, sort of sight bands. Those are the album's and, and and what's interesting about living that you just played in a bunch of songs on those albums, they do have kind of hooks, right, like you're talking about that they very much were influenced by the Beatles in finding that kind of your week your candy, if you will, but you know, kind of Layton in amongst the the kind of meandering, psychedelic jam. So David Anthony 9:18 the album doesn't really do much reg and as Allah says, the problem with LA is that it attracts all the best bands from every state and coming from Arizona. They just couldn't crack the big time there. They prepare to retreat and start to tour literally without a home across the US. And this leads to the big breakout moment in Toronto, Canada at an outdoor concert featuring John Lennon the doors Chicago, Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis and others. Tell us what happened there that really put the Alice Cooper band on the map, Alice took Reg Harkema 9:52 the chicken and he threw it into the audience and the band didn't know the chicken was gonna be there. So in the middle of it when They were playing and bringing out like, you know, they're spraying smoke and stuff you know that Alice was like fuck, I'm gonna throw the chicken out there and he threw it out into the audience and unbeknownst to them, they would like, tore it up and threw it back and you know, the feathers like started like flying all over the place because, you know, the, the the vacuum thing or whatever that they had used. And it just became like, this big thing because you know, John Lennon showing up at this thing, there was already publicity and now suddenly they're talking. So David Anthony 10:33 it's really at that moment in Toronto, I guess that Alice creates, or at least, Zappa realizes too. This is like a shock rock sub genre of music the glittery clothes, the Barbie clothes from earlier that crazy onstage antics of chopping a doll with an axe grabbing any object he can throws it in the throwing it in the crowd. But it's not all mayhem underneath, they've demonstrate a real shrewd business side and exploiting that shock, rock positioning. In sharp contrast, as you said to the hippie, peace loving bands of the 60s. And and from that point, there's another strong business decision. The decision to hire Bob Ezrin tell us what this did for this band. Eventually, Reg Harkema 11:21 he just like runs them through their paces, and he's the one it's Bob Ezrin he's the one who's like, Okay, this riff is cool. This piece of melody is cool. This long Extendo jam fucking sucks you know David Anthony 11:46 the ups and downs without a man Yeah, Bob Ezrin. You know, that was his early gig with Alice and he went on to do Pink Floyd, YouTube Deep Purple, Peter Gabriel. I mean, just the list is endless of what he went on Kiss, Best Kiss. Jay Z. You know, Alice really was one of his first ones. But man, did he go on to become the industry standard at some levels? Reg Harkema 12:22 Oh, yeah, no else was dispersed. But you know, getting in the ground at like, 19 you know, with a band that you know, like Bob Ezrin had like a hit single honors as a producer under his belt by the time he's 20. David Anthony 12:36 Right. And that's followed by another School's Out becomes a massive hit even bigger than I'm 18 as Vince says we attract the fans without a home the freaks and the outsiders but this next song becomes massive Reg Harkema 13:11 HOLY SHIT School's out what kid doesn't want to get out of school? Oh, boy, kid, the, you know, we all remember that. Like, you know, June, school's over, and we got the summer sort of feeling and like, you know, strew teenage angst, you know, school's out is like, you know, a direct line right into the brain of every teenager in America at that time. David Anthony 13:34 How would you describe an Alice show from that era? Reg Harkema 13:36 Dennis Dunaway and Vince Bernie a kind of work in their dally sort of surrealist art background going okay, what can we do to step it up? So comes like the Hanged man's gallows, you know, and they hang. Alice Cooper, you know, original copies of that album actually came with a poster of Alice, hanging, you know, Madison and like, 1971 your kid and you've got like a guy like a long haired hippie hanging from a noose on on the wall, I missed a skier. And they continue that through, school's out, they come up with the guillotine, where they ended up like actually executing Alice with a guillotine on stage. And, you know, the result of all that is is like an incredible show, and incredible publicity because no one was kind of doing it. You David Anthony 14:27 could argue that the violence was merely a reflection of the violence that had emerged in the late 60s with, you know, assassinations, televised war, cops beating on protesters and for Reg Harkema 14:37 me while working on the show. I also found it really interesting that although no one was actually doing it they were kind of picking from imagery that was out there you know, they would do a song called dead babies are Alice's like chopping baby dolls on stage and like holding these baby heads up and, you know, it was kind of like this is just within a year or so. With Life magazine showing like dead babies in the, at the Mi Lai massacre, you know, like, color spreads of that David Anthony 15:07 and so on. Yeah, the Vietnam War. Reg Harkema 15:11 Yeah, and you gotta remember, like the Manson murders, taking the bloom off of like, you know, hippie culture, they kind of like their imagery and they're out. It's like, you know, I mean, Alice to this day, we'll use the line we put a stake in the heart of the love generation, right? He's very proud of that. But you know, that's what the hell they were doing. You know, they were bringing in all this imagery that was in the zeitgeist David Anthony 15:35 with the fame comes the requisite limo is private jets nonstop partying. Vince, he's still Vince at this point discusses the inner battle and your dog I think you guys do a great job and kind of highlighting the inner battle he has with the onstage persona of Alice, how would you characterize this Vince versus Alice battle? Well, Reg Harkema 15:59 um, from from like the, the late 60s, Alice, I guess, you know, had tried acid but he, what he didn't like was the feeling of a like a loss of control. So while the other guys are like taking acid Alice like just settled into being like, you know, casual alcoholic, right, and like, you know, he would just have a beer can in his hand constantly, you know, just sipping just sipping Sapir will sit there, you know, five o'clock, six o'clock, you know, we will add a little whiskey just sipping, and, you know, interviews and they became so big. It was like, you know, limos Yeah. To limos, one Remo will take the band to the hotel, and then Alice would have to go do a and because everyone started focusing in on that lead guy who's, you know, and I mean, he was Vince but he was playing the character of Alice Cooper and, and, you know, the distinction between Oh Alice Cooper as a band and Alice Cooper the guy started getting very blurred David Anthony 17:02 so the billion dollar babies comes out in 73 yields Alice's number one hit, no more Mr. Nice Guy. But at this point, when he goes solo, Vince changes as legally changes his name to Alice Cooper begins his solo career, and launches the biggest stage show ever Welcome to my nightmare complete with the beheadings hangings chainsaws fire, basically every horror movie trick in the book he's so famous now that he's appearing on talk shows seen on various television specials with legends such as Frank Sinatra, comedians, George Burns, Jack Benny, I mean even appears on Hollywood Squares and game shows, but the madness and the mayhem continuing and as he says near his dock, he's he's drunk most days while trying to play the role of Alice Cooper. He says, Who wants to talk to Vince fernea When Alice is the star? Tell us really what happens next, the alcohol, you know, gets to an apex that is just I mean, the end is near here. What happens next is is a really interesting tidbit. Yeah, well Reg Harkema 18:28 him, you know, welcome to my nightmare was like even beyond what the Alice Cooper group had done, like just massive, right? So he he cannot get off the road. In fact, he gets off the road when he starts having like liver issues during Alice Cooper goes to hell. But once once those are cleared up back out on the road, he just like slides downhill in 1977 it this is like round about the time that Elvis died. And we can we can never overstate the impact of like Elvis and the Beatles on all of these rock stars at the time. And so Alice, I think, looked at that Alice Cooper and saw you know, the same bloated rock star that Elvis had become, and finally shipping him and Alice's wife Cheryl, who we'd met on the Welcome to my nightmare to her she David Anthony 19:30 was a dancer on the Yeah, in the stage showed they had romantic scenes together end up marrying so she sort of says, okay, enough's enough here. Reg Harkema 19:39 Yeah. So he, he goes into what was had been used as like, insane asylum in the 19th century still existed in upstate New York. This is like pre Betty Ford Clinic right. So you know, that's descending into like, you know, a modernized and seen a silent tour. dry out so that he cleaned up he's still hanging out with Bernie top of Bernie topping is legendary as the lyricist and CO writer of without John like, you know any great Elton John song of the day that you heard Bernie top and wrote the lyrics for so it was a weird collaboration from from the inside. I was still in the room and someone else was in Texas who was in Canada Unknown Speaker 20:31 drinking whiskey on the stage Reg Harkema 20:44 friends, they were like, Hey, let's make an album together. But Bernie top and you know to help fallacy to keep keep his edge but not fall back and alcoholism introduced him to cocaine. Al's have never wanted to talk about it. Because in his bizarre Christian, aesthetic or ethic, you know, booze becoming an alcoholic and booze is okay, as long as you recovered from that, but drugs no way. I don't want anyone in the drugs. Part of that was starting to Freebase cocaine to can't even remember doing because he was like slow fucking and strung out on Freebase cocaine. David Anthony 21:27 Then we moved to the late 70s Punk is emerging, as you said, we're in 77 when he's kind of drying out. The punks are emerging. In your documentary, John Lydon, lead singer the sex pistol pays tribute to him. What was it that the punk saw? What did they like about ours? Well, Reg Harkema 21:44 because he was you know, he was like, they put the stake. You know, like Alice said, he put the stake in the heart of the love generation. Yeah, they saw they saw like, you know, someone who, in Alice who is like, had been a reaction to the, to the broken promise of the 60s in the hippie era and they identified David Anthony 22:07 right so let's fast forward a bit we go into the 80s Now we've got the glam metal era starting we've got Twisted Sister we've got Motley Crue here bands etc they got the Barbie like colors, they got the sparkles, a lot of sort of Alice elements to their shows. And that sort of leads to a bit of a rebirth or a rediscovery of Alice, in kind of a historic live concert. Tell us a little bit about that glam metal era. Reg Harkema 22:59 It's not no coincidence that all these guys like fucking trolled out their hair and like Dee Snider putting all this makeup on, you know, she reached like the rock bottom in like 1983 Cheryl had left with their daughter. He was like strung out freebasing cocaine. And he had like this kind of epiphany and went back to his parents. And they're just like, dried out for like three years. And his parents David Anthony 23:26 literally take him home and nursed him back to health and the videos you show them in this era with his hair up. He looks like Katharine Hepburn strung out on something like he looks really about. Reg Harkema 23:37 Well, you know, as Cheryl Cooper, you know, Alice was a preacher's kid. Right? As I you know, it was was Yeah. Before, so was Cheryl Cooper. And then through all the ups and downs that Alice went through, she was his rock, she was his rock and saying, I'm leaving you with my daughter. That was a thing that she needed to do to kick his ass. And you know, she's always maintained her faith. And she was the one that was able to buttress Alice's faith, you know, you know, become a Christian to this day. And so you know, he went dried out Ellis when dried out for three years and in the meantime and TV happened and like you know, quiet riot and Motley Crue and all this analysis, you know, are we using the track team? Right? Like he's an athlete, he's a competitor. He's kind of like, Wait a second. These guys are doing my fucking stick. You know? So, you know, he kicked booze he kicked cocaine he's like I want to get back into the ring and ship said Okay, let's go for it found this like you know Rambo guitarists Kane Roberts. Stuck Alice in the studio with him and Alison word Kane came up with a bunch of songs and an album I can't remember the name of that album. But the the big test was the Halloween show back in Detroit David Anthony 25:02 19 was like 1986 or since I think 1986 Reg Harkema 25:05 October 31 1986. Alex hadn't been on stage and three years had never been on stage. David Anthony 25:12 Yeah, this is a live in TV show. This is a big deal. Reg Harkema 25:15 Oh, yeah. Chef was like we're going for it and Halloween, David Anthony 25:17 Halloween, Alice Cooper live MTV, like, what else could be a fit for Alice? That's awesome. And Reg Harkema 25:25 Alice was like, you know, fucking locked in a circle for an hour. Backstage. She, you know, and then he came out and suddenly it was like, I'm just Alice, just looking with were in the crowd, who had not seen they were all young enough that they hadn't seen that early 70s Alice Cooper show fucking went bonkers for it. And he was back baby, he ended up actually having a number one song. Elisa was like a number one hit. David Anthony 26:14 So Reg, Alice Cooper seems to have had significant influence on a few different genres of music. Where do you think he sits in musical history? Reg Harkema 26:22 Let me just sum it up by telling you about a little visit I had to Alice's Mankey. He's got like pictures of him with Frank Sinatra, you know, Jack Benny, Groucho Marx, you know, cuz he's just add route, like a fan himself. Right? So I'm like, looking through all those pictures that come along. And there's a picture of Lady Gaga. And I'm kinda like, well, is Alice a fan of Lady Gaga? And no, it's a picture of Lady Gaga. And she has written, Alice, I stole everything from you. Thank you, God. And, you know, you listen to Lady Gaga has music. I mean, you know, it's not much of a musical influence. I mean, Alice does a killer version of born this way. But you know, nonetheless, but it tells you that, basically, Theatrical presentations of popular music would not have happened without Alice Cooper. You know, like fucking Taylor Swift probably doesn't even know who the fuck Alice Cooper is. She shouldn't be bowing down at Alice. Beyonce probably doesn't do Alice Cooper, she bowing down and outs. Lady Gaga knows Alice and she pays tribute. Yeah, David Anthony 27:39 yeah, you can draw a straight line from Alice to probably I mean, Ezrin went on to produce a band called Kiss. And the makeup the firefield show the glittery clothes. The androgyny of Ziggy Stardust and Bowie and Marc Bolan of T Rex. Yeah, Bowie boldly Reg Harkema 28:01 record the one that they released killer right like November 71. They played in London and Bowie sent his backup band to go see them because the backup band didn't want to wear women's clothes right bones like it fucking works. Go see this Yeah, David Anthony 28:19 and now let's talk about that how he encouraged Bowie to go for it Speaker 1 28:27 came on so loaded man. Well, snow David Anthony 28:42 so yeah, he did influence Bowie the and of course the influence the punks with the screw you attitudes, the glam metal of the 80s I mean, Alice literally has his fingerprints on so many genres like you said, it's like Reg Harkema 28:58 seeing like you know like the Taylor Swift and the Beyonce it's like you know, they're not lumped into glad metal and punk and all that but it doesn't matter. It's like theatrics totally. Reg, David Anthony 29:07 we're going to your three picks the deep cuts Alice tunes that people may not have heard and let's hear them now. Which ones would you pick? Reg Harkema 29:18 Well the first one that I you know was a bit overlooked is a deep cut because it's probably followed on the album by like the greatest Alice Cooper song of all time, Bala the date the white fry, David Anthony 29:29 wait a minute, the best Alice Cooper song of all time, The Ballad of Dwight Frye let's play that in Unknown Speaker 29:36 the danger zone. Reg Harkema 29:58 Before that is a song called Second Coming Speaker 1 30:06 down the bells thing louder songs a ring I Unknown Speaker 30:11 finally recognize Speaker 1 30:15 I only know hell is getting harder. Devils getting smarter Reg Harkema 30:27 the next one I picked was a song called I never cry Unknown Speaker 30:34 it makes me shiver to the Speaker 2 30:38 shakes to be just a holodeck, but God called in and you know cry cry Reg Harkema 30:59 sometimes a drink you know, Alice did have like this kind of sentimental heart, I'm not sure the rest of the band had. And when he was unleashed from the band he was allowed to explore that some more and I never try and it's like my kinda one of my go to karaoke song. David Anthony 31:20 I've gotten visions of Reg harcombe in a karaoke bar with the makeup running from his eyes. Reg Harkema 31:27 Yeah, yeah, I love say that's, yeah, the third pick was passed the gun around because again, it's like a piece of art. If it's like a villainous piece of art where, you know, he's really speaking to the human condition, you know, and what is going on with his life? Speaker 2 31:45 We watch cartoons there's a cover of the party balloons and all my money's gone. She wouldn't get the reason to unwind. Actually, the last Reg Harkema 32:04 mistake takes you into the heart soul mind, you know, instant 38 What he's dealing with at that time, David Anthony 32:10 like is a day with Alice you go to visit Alice What do you wake up in the morning and chop some doll parts and then you go golf in the afternoon? Is that what it's like? You know, Reg Harkema 32:19 Alice, the man conquers his demons in 1986 because after that, you know Alice's got put out some like great music and so on. But there's not been any sort of like tension in his life because yeah, he literally gets up and he has breakfast and he goes and he plays 18 holes and he comes home and he watches some daytime TV and he has lunch and then he checks his watch and you know, goes into his room and starts like doing some karate moves to some martial arts movies to get ready for the show and then like limos over to whatever show that he has to do and gets on stage at a casino by seven o'clock and then you know, off stage by like a three or nine and goes back home and falls asleep watching a horror movie and starts the whole thing again. Right like, can't really there's not a lot of like, you know, internal demons. He's battling anymore that make for great substance of a show. David Anthony 33:18 Yeah, Alice Cooper tucked in in bed by 11 with a cup of hot milk. Six months of the year. He's tours now at the age of 75. It's incredible. Reg Harca thank you so much for today. You were that was really, really fun. Reg Harkema 33:33 My pleasure, Dave. Thanks for having me on garage to stadiums. David Anthony 33:38 Right on some closing notes on Alice Cooper. He's recorded songs for several horror movies like Friday the 13th. Then Wes Craven Shakur even appeared as himself in the comedy Wayne's World and actually played Freddy Cougars wicked stepfather in Freddy's Dead that final nightmare. If you want to hear the official garage to stadiums Alice Cooper playlist, check out the episode page at our website garage to stadiums.com in the show notes from that episode, you'll see a link to the playlist including our guest, Reg harcombe is three deep cuts from Alice Cooper's extensive catalogue. We've also included some bonus footage of Alice in various stages of his career. For example, we have included rare early clip of Alice performing his huge hit I'm 18 on local Detroit television, as well as clips from his elaborate mid 70s. Welcome to my nightmare concert tour where he achieved superstar status. As we noted, Alice was a huge celebrity in the 1970s and we've included clips of him on The Muppet Show and the Johnny Carson Show. It's hilarious to think of a guy who beheaded mannequins dancing with Muppets but it is there as we mentioned, Alice is a very good golfer so if you want to see him swinging the clubs we have video of him at a celebrity golf tournament. The heading dolls for show and putting for dough as it were. I Actually Alice cites diving into golf as key to his recovery from alcohol and drug addiction. Special thanks to our guest, Reg Harkin, the director of the documentary, superduper, Alice Cooper, and our producers, Rhys waters and Sarah McLellan. You've been listening to garages and stadiums another blast furnace labs production. I'm Dave Anthony. Join us again for another garage to stadium story. This has been a Podstarter production Transcribed by https://otter.ai