Latest / Crooked Tree: A West Memphis 3 Podcast / Episode 19: Damien's Interview from Hell

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Episode 19: Damien's Interview from Hell · Crooked Tree: A West Memphis 3 Podcast

• Paul: Welcome to Crooked Tree, a West Memphis Three podcast. I might as well go ahead and confess now. Okay. Did this last how long did this last up until the time that they turn you over to Detective ⁓ Durham? I was there eight hours in all. Before I talked to Durham, I was there about an hour. So eight hours beginning eleven fifty four? Mm-hmm. And this was on May the fifth. Mm-hmm. Right. ⁓ do you recall anything else that they may have said to you during that period of time? Not really. Alright. And then after the the interrogation with Ridge and Sunbury Do they appear angry at you for the responses that you were giving? Yeah. And during this time did you deny your involvement in these murders? Yes. Right. Did they ever tape record that? No. There was a tape recorder sitting there but they would not turn it on. Mm. Hello, everybody. Welcome back. My name is Paul Day, forensic geologist and victim advocate, and I'm here with my research partner, Kristen Rich, criminologist and victim advocate. We both are victim advocates for the Byers family. And we have been doing a slow crawl through the West Memphis Three case for a long time, and we have come up to one of those. spots in the case that is pivotal. It's a turning point in the case, at least from a legal standpoint. And it all hinges on what happens beginning at eleven fifty-four on May the 10th, 1993. Kristen, are you ready to get into this? Yes. This is a pivotal episode for sure. This is going to absolutely direct the way that this investigation and even the trial will go. So these interviews that happen on May the tenth are extremely important. And we think it's important to go through what we know, what we can piece together very slowly, so that it is absolutely clear what the police are doing, what direction they are going, and how they got here. We've set that up a little bit with the last episode, talking about Ferris, talking about Alan reaching out to Kinonias, about his cult expertise with the police department. And they have all of this on their minds. about witchcraft and wicca and occults and pentagrams and satanic symbols and what do you find at a crime scene where some kind of satanic ritual happened. This is all what they're thinking about and they're going to interview Damien Eccles. Yeah, not to mention the fact that Murray Ferris brought up Lucifer and that he was running an evil cult right out of Earl, Arkansas, which is just there to the west. And of course the fact that Damien Eccles's ex girlfriend, Deanna Holcomb, is a black witch. So they're gonna have a very strong interest in bringing Damien in. And they do that. They apparently sent somebody over to Damien's house. They picked up Damien and his mother, brought them over to the West Memphis Police Department, and they are going to thoroughly, as they would call it, interview him, but interview is just a code word for interrogate. And this is going to be one heck of an interrogation that he's gonna go through. And everybody who is a supporter of the West Memphis three and their legal plight At this point, would say, Why didn't you listen to Gail Grinnell? Gail Grinnell said, Don't talk to the police. Please don't talk to the police. And Jason is not allowed to talk to the police. But here we have Pam and Damien going to talk to the police this day, and it's going to haunt them for the rest of their lives. So as with most of these interviews, when they bring in a suspect or a witness, they do a subject description. The West Memphis PD fills out a form. about the person that they're talking to so they can get demographic information, family information about the person. So that's exactly where they're going to start when Damien goes into the West Memphis Police Department on May the 10th, 1993 at eleven fifty four AM. ⁓ Detective Ridge, I want to direct your attention to ⁓ May the tenth, nineteen ninety three. ⁓ on that date, did you have a conversation with ⁓ the defendant Damien Eccles? Yes, sir. And approximately what time did you start talking to him? ⁓ a little bit before eleven fifty-four AM. I want to show you what a mark for identification purposes. Yes sir I can. What is that? That's a copy of a subject description form filled out on that date. Alright, and where do you get the information to complete that form? From the person being spoken with. And is that the form you used in this case in regard to Damian Eccles? Yes, sir. Detective Ridge, did you ask him his name? Yes, sir, I did. Alright, and what did it tell you? ⁓ he told me his name was Damien Wayne Eccles and also known as Michael Wayne Hutcheson. Did he tell you any alias or nicknames? Yes, sir. Alias he said his nickname was Icky. Right. And what was his date of birth? Twelve, eleven of seventy four. And where did he live? Twenty seven ⁓ six South Grove in Broadway Trailer Park, West Memphis. And what was his height and weight? ⁓ Five foot eight inches in height, weight a hundred and seventy five pounds. And what ⁓ tattoos did he have? Okay, he had a tattoo of Damony on his right arm, a cross between his thumb and first finger, an Egyptian ink, he called it, and a pentagram on his chest, and two earrings in his left ear, one earring in his right ear. The this Egyptian ink, what does that look like? It's a circle and it looks like a stick figure with a cross below that. And what was on his chest? A pentagram. And do you recall which hand the cross was on? And that was between the index finger and the thumb? Yes, sir. And do you remember which hand that was? No, sir, I don't remember. And did he indicate any peculiarities? He was ambidextrous. And did he indicate where his stepfather Jack Eccles lived? Yes, sir. He said he lived in Lake Short Trida Park. When you listen to that audio, you realize that this is audio from a trial. This is in a court setting. This is a questioning of a witness and a response. It is pretty strange in this case for a prosecutor to be asking a police officer to go over a subject description on the stand. We don't see that anywhere else. And what we can deduce from this is that they are introducing Damien's subject description mainly for the purpose of introducing his tattoos. Yeah. When this interview is happening, the jury is sitting there looking at Damien. They know exactly who he is and what he looks like, so there's no need to go over this whole thing. They could have just said There's the subject right there. He's sitting right there in the front row. This is explicitly for that purpose. And in fact, they didn't even get all of his tattoos. He had another tattoo on his hand, which he's going to be asked about during the trial as well. And let's go ahead and play Damien's response to this subject description. There's been some testimony about some tattoos. Okay. ⁓ there was one testimony about that you had some kind of a tattoo that's has a circle with the stick man. So I do. Do you have it w what is that tattoo and do you have it? It's an Egyptian ank and I do have it on my chest. All right. And why did you what what is it an anchor? What's that stand for? It symbolizes eternal life. Okay. Why did you have that tattoo put on? I just thought it was cool at the time. Okay. Did you have another tattoo on your chest? Yes, I did. Okay, and what was that tattoo? A pentagram. All right. Why did you have a pentagram tattoo on your chest? I just thought it was cool. Okay. Was the fact that you had a pentagram tattooed on your chest, did did that mean any type that you were a Satanist? No, it was not a Satanist pentagram. It was pointing up. Okay. It's faded out now. I don't even have it anymore. Okay. In addition, there was a reference about some type of tattoo on between I guess the the web part of your fa your hand. Yes. All right. Is there a ⁓ did you have some type of tattoo there? Yeah, it's still there. It's a cross. And what was the significance of that tattoo? There was a lot of people at school that were getting them that year, so that is so that was the reason you got that one? Okay. There was also some testimony that you have the words evil tattooed on your fingers. I used to, it's not there anymore. Okay. What was the reason that you had evil tattooed on your hands? I had this T shirt. it had a hand holding a hammer. It was for the injustice for all tape. ⁓ and across the hand some of the groups of Metallica they have things like ⁓ hate, fear, evil, things like that. And that was on one of my T shirts. I just kinda thought it was cool, so I did that. So because the prosecution has entered Damien's description into testimony in court, Damien's attorney has to question him about this on the stand so that he can explain why he has each of these tattoos and what they mean to him. Because if you just leave it at the introduction by the prosecution, They can spin that however they want. They can make it sound nefarious. They can make it sound like it has something to do with the occult or that it's something dark or ugly or evil. And so Damien is forced to explain each of these things so that the jury knows that he doesn't have any bad intentions, that nothing that he has tattooed on his body is about being violent or the occult or devil worshiping. Yeah. Once you start being on the defensive, you've already lost. So He's already trying to explain away what to him seems to be pretty benign, but to other people, they're seeing it as some type of inspiration from the occult or Satanism. And we're gonna see that in the report that we're gonna be covering that the West Memphis PD is not gonna see any difference between his Wiccan faith and what they perceive as Satanism. Now, after Damien has filled out his subject description on May the 10th, and he's there at eleven fifty four, he's sitting there with Lieutenant James Sudbury and Detective Brian Ridge. Brian Ridge is the lead investigator on the case. Sudbury, of course, has been looking at the occultic aspect of the case with Steve Jones and later on through Shane Griffin, his subordinate, on May 9th and May 7th. So here he is confronting Damian Eccles, listening to this interview with all this new information. And the way this works is Brian Ridge is going to take investigative notes. He's just going to be scribbling down notes. And anybody who's ever read Brian Ridge realizes that his notes are always quick. mess. He just puts down just a couple of bullet points and then he tries to extrapolate from it later on what happened. Sudbury is no better. And his handwriting is absolutely atrocious. In fact, we'll point out where there's an error that comes out where he can't even read his own writing. So what happens is Ridge is going to be begin the interview. He's going to be taking these very quick notes. Later on he's going to sit down and write a handwritten report from those notes. He's going to try to put it together into a story. When he's done with that, he doesn't seem satisfied. For some reason, he switches over to a computer or a typewriter and he begins a typewritten report. And the typewritten report is different from the previous sets of notes in subtle ways and some places in blatant ways. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna read the typewritten report and then show the basis from the interview that that typewritten report is from, if there's any major divergence. So that's gonna be the main focus of what we're gonna do here. Simultaneous with this, Sudbury Is sitting there with his 32 question questionnaire. So the interesting thing about Sudbury's presence here is that Detective Ridge is doing most of the questioning of Damien at this time. Sudbury has his questionnaire, that 32-point questionnaire that he had made up and given to Shane Griffin to administer to Damien and Jason the day before. He's now in the room with Damien himself. So while Detective Ridge is Interviewing, interrogating Damien Eccles, Sudberry is going through his questions and seeing if he can answer the questions based on what Damien is saying to Detective Ridge. So he's not explicitly saying question number one, you know, XYZ, and then writing down Damien's answer. He's extrapolating what he thinks is the answer to his question based on what Damien and Detective Ridge are talking about. And you're gonna see that sometimes those don't match up. they don't really make much sense as to how he's writing down the answer to the question because that question is not being explicitly asked of Damien. Yeah, and that is evidenced by the fact that many of the questions are asked out of order or that they're answered out of order, we should say, because it looks like an answer comes in, he says, ⁓ that seems to answer question, say twenty. And so he'll write down what he thinks is the answer to that. It's not because he actually asked Damien that question. Though it's entirely possible for some of them he did ask clarifying questions. Hey, what about this? And that was, you know, maybe question number four. But for the most part, we can tell that he is jumping around because we could follow Ridge's report chronologically. And it turns out that the answers that are being given on the questionnaire are roughly being correlated with that chronology that we're seeing in Ridge's report. So he's hunting and looking for buckets to drop statements into to be able to satisfy these questions. So we're gonna read the report. And then we're gonna come back and go over the questionnaire and you should see that pattern play out. All right. The typewritten report from Detective Ridge reads as follows. On 51093, Damian Wayne Eccles, who is also known as Michael Wayne Hutchison, came to the West Memphis Police Department for an interview concerning any information that he may have concerning the above noted homicide. Present during the interview were Lieutenant James Sudbury of the Crittenden County Drug Task Force. Myself, Detective B. Ridge, and Damien. A subject description was filled out that contained information about Damien's residence, his vital statistics, and his family. At this point, Damien was not considered to be a suspect, and only general knowledge questions were being asked. Damien was very calm and even cold as he answered the questions concerning his background and any knowledge he may have had concerning the homicide. So we haven't even really gotten into the report where one paragraph in and he's already kind of putting a dark tone over the top of it. That he's cold. Damien was cold. We should also point out that he right off the bat says Damien's not a suspect, and we only ask general knowledge questions of Damien. Yeah, isn't that interesting? It is. Right. He comes in as a person of interest. ⁓ he's not gonna go out that way. No, no, he's not. This day will change his life for sure. Next, it says Damien stated that he was a member of a white witch group that he referred to as Wicca. He stated that his belief was there was a goddess and not a god. He stated that everyone in the group works toward a divine light, and upon reaching that stage, they become like gods themselves. He has been a member of this group for about five years, he stated. So this is one of the first places where there's going to be a divergence between what the interview notes and the handwritten report earlier in the day say versus what his final typewritten report will say. Let's go ahead and read the interview notes, which just simply says, white witch, goddess, not man. Everyone works towards divine light, at which time they become like gods. Around five years. In the handwritten report, which is derived from his interview notes, he says he stated that he is a member of a white magic group, in which he named members, including Murray J. Ferris and Chris Latrell. Now you'll notice in the interview notes, he doesn't say that he's a member of a group. He says that he's a white witch. That's all he says. And when you look over at the typewritten report, he says Damien stated he was a member of a white witch group that he referred to as Wicca. Wicca is not a group. Wicca is a faith, it's a religion. The White Witch group is the Covenant of the Divine Light, which he's confusing between Wicca and the Covenant of the Divine Light, which is Murray Ferris's local group that gets together and does Wicca in Murray's house. And we'll get into that a little bit later on. Yeah, there's no mention of Wicca in the interview notes or the handwritten report. The word Wicca does not appear until the typewritten report. And Ferris and Latrell only appear in the handwritten report. They do not appear in the interview notes or in the typewritten report. Yeah, so they show up in the intermediary report and then disappear on the way out, so they're not even in the final typewritten report. This is really bizarre. This is not the first time this is gonna happen. It's not the only time there's gonna be some interesting information that should probably have shown up in the final report that somehow just kind of disappears. Damien stated that he had met one person that he considered to be a priestess. He stated that the person he met was Deanna Holcomb, who he stated lived in the harbor yard, Harden Village area of Marion on Cabral Cove. He stated that she worshipped cats and what she did with her form of witchcraft. So this is another one of those that has suspect interview notes origin. All it says in the notes is met Deanna Holcomb. And then the next line it says, attempted to get pregnant, parents stated, had sex. So there had been, just as a side note, there had been rumors floating around largely from the parents that Damien was trying to get Deanna pregnant and largely for the purposes of sacrificing the baby. This is just one of those urban myths about Damien that we're floating around and it winds up here and I'm sure Damien is sharing that information. Her parents said that we were trying to have a baby and sacrifice it. And then it says down at the bottom of this list, it says Cabral Cove, Harbor Yard, Harbin Village, worships cats. It says nowhere that she's a priestess. He says that nowhere, but it's in the final report. And there's nothing about her at all in the handwritten report. Completely omitted from the handwritten report. So this is undoubtedly some conjecture or some embellishment that's being done by Detective Rich. All right, Damien stated that on Tuesday, May fourth, ninety-three, he was at home from when he got out of bed at about ten thirty to eleven AM until he got up at about twelve noon when he left and went to Lakeshore. He stated that he has a lot of friends at Lakeshore since he used to live there with his stepfather, Jack Eccles. So the underlying notes simply says Tuesday at home. From ten thirty to eleven PM and then twelve o'clock noon went to Lakeshore. That's all it says. Damien was wearing a necklace that he claimed that he had just bought at the Mall of Memphis on Saturday before this interview. The necklace had a pentagram as a pendant that Damien explained meant some type of good symbol for the Wicca magic he was in. This is another place where the underlying notes simply say necklace picked up at Mall of Memphis this Saturday, which would have been two days before the interview. Right, and it's not mentioned at all in the handwritten report. Not mentioned in the handwritten report. There's no description of it in the notes, nothing like this at all. But this does ⁓ sound like the medallion that Murray Ferris had produced on May the ninth when Mike Allen and Detective Ridge had interviewed them. So they took note of it in the interview, but they didn't put it into the report, which is a little odd. Damien stated that on Wednesday he was with Jason Baldwin and Domini Tear and that they had gone to Jason's uncle's house on Center Street in West Memphis. He couldn't give a specific address, but said that it was near Alexander's laundromat, where he stated that he called his mother to pick him up. What's really intriguing about this is the bit of information that he's giving about where he's making a phone call to get picked up, and that is near Alexander's laundromat, which is located off of Center Street in Missouri, right there in the heart of town. He stated that his mother picked him up along with Domini Tear and took Domini home. Domini Damien's girlfriend who is pregnant with Damien's baby. Domini lives in the Lakeshore trailer park with her mother. Damian stated that after he and his mother dropped Domini off, that he, along with his mother, sister Michelle, and father Joe Hutchison, had gone to the residence of Susan Sanders and visited for a while. He stated that he was at their residence at about 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock PM on that date. And after leaving the residence, he went home, where he stated that he got on the phone with a Holly George, who he states lives in Bartlett, Tennessee. He stated that he got off the telephone with Holly after talking for a long time at about ten thirty PM that night. So my assessment of this is this is one of the better typewritten report paragraphs because you can map that straight over to the interview notes and the handwritten report. He is clearly getting this directly from Damien. The only thing that is in addition to this is it says Domini is Damien's girlfriend who is pregnant with Damien's baby. But this actually comes from the next set of notes when he talks about where he is on Thursday and he's just carrying it up and we'll get to that here in a minute. But overwhelmingly, this is one of the best paragraphs he writes in the entire report. Damien stated that on Thursday he went to Lakeshore, where he stayed the night with Domini. He stated that he heard the boys were missing from Jason Baldwin while he was at Lakeshore that day. Then he stated that he heard the news that the boys were missing from Jason's mother. Yes. So this is another one of those situations where his notes are unclear as to what was actually said and what was not. The underlying note simply says Thursday, Lakeshore, 3 PM, stayed night with Domini Tier. So when he says stayed with Domini, he means stayed the night with Domini Tier. He was there that Thursday night. She's five months pregnant. There's a note here that says that he's manic depression in hospital, and then Jason Baldwin's mother told of kids missing. So in his final report, he says he hears it from Jason and then he switches it over to Jason Baldwin's mother. But the underlying notes say that it came from Jason Baldwin's mother. But in the handwritten notes it says Damien stated he heard from Jason Baldwin about the kids missing. So is it from Jason or was it from Jason Baldwin's mother? It seems to me like you have to go to the original notes that he took in the interview and it's Jason Baldwin's mother that would have told him, as she was probably on her way to work, because she goes to work right around three PM. I agree. And it almost looks like when he was doing his typewritten report, he went off of his handwritten report, which says that Damien learned it from Jason Baldwin. And so he types that first. Then he looks at his interview notes, which say Jason Baldwin's mother told him. And so he adds that. So this is just a case where things are changing as he's writing his final report as it goes through the different iterations from the interview notes all the way to the final report that he's gonna wind up testifying to at trial. Damien stated that Steve Jones from the juvenile authority had been by to see him a day or two before and that Steve had told him about how the boys' testicles had been cut off and that someone had urinated in their mouths. He stated that Steve stated that could have been the reason that the bodies were placed in the water so that the urine could have been washed out. In the case of this bit of information regarding Steve Jones, the interview notes are pretty much exactly what he put into his typewritten report. It's pretty reliable. But in his handwritten report, he does make one little change and then he switches it back to what he sees in the interview notes. And in the handwritten report, he says Damien stated that in water to flush the urine out of the victim's mouths. But in the typewritten report, it makes it very clear that he says that it he could have been the reason because Steve Jones had suggested that might have been a reason. Whereas in the handwritten report said that it came from Damien. So you have to be very careful what winds up in these reports. And it's good that that correction went into the typewritten report because the interview notes from when he was talking to Damien match that. The handwritten report is in error. Damien had an opinion for who could have done the murders as being someone sick and that it was some type of thrill kill. He also stated that the penis was a symbol of power in his religion, known as Wicca. He also stated that the number three was a sacred number in the belief. This one's a serious problem. This one is definitely a serious problem. The interview notes are six lines. It simply says sick, thrill kill, satanic, penis, symbol of power, Wicca, and then the last line says, to Satanist, three is a sacred number. The handwritten report says Damien stated that the person who did the crime was sick or the act. was part of a thrill kill. Damien stated that the penis is a strong symbol of power. Damien stated that because there was a number of three victims, it was symbolic because three is a special number. Now are you seeing how this is changing? In the first one, he differentiates he being Damien is differentiating Wicca, but saying to a Satanist, three is a sacred number. By the handwritten report, it's become symbolic because three is a special number to Damien specifically. And then in the final typewritten report, he also stated that the number three was a sacred number in the belief. Well, which belief? He's a Wiccan. But Damien said it was to Satanists a sacred number. The number three is significant to Satanists, and he is saying he is not a Satanist. He is Wiccan. And then somehow Detective Ridge screws all of that up and in his final report attributes the number three as being sacred to Damien because he is wicked. You could tell that Detective Ridge at this point is conflating Wicca with Satanism. And that is a serious problem. It's not gonna get any better. Let's just keep going. When asked about Jason Baldwin, he described a Jason Baldwin that lived in West that was not his friend Jason Baldwin. He claimed that the other was mean and that he had been known to kill snakes, which he claimed was just for the hell of killing. This Jason was described as being about five foot nine inches tall, eighteen years old, and three hundred pounds. He stated that he thought Jason was known to smoke dope, but he was not queer. In the interview notes, Damien does indeed mention the mean second Jason Baldwin. He is frequently called in the case the other Jason Baldwin, and he gives those details. And Brian Ridge does a good job actually of putting all of this stuff together. Now what's interesting is there's an asterisk there. And so this does link to a question that we're going to see on the Sudbury questionnaire. About who Damien thinks might have been responsible for this crime. So he's naming suspects in this case. Damien stated that he knew LG Hollingsworth through Domini. He thought that LG was a relative by marriage. He stated that LG was kind of weird in that on one occasion he wanted to trade girlfriends with Damien for a night. And in the interview notes, it has another asterisk, which indicates that this is a suspect. Says with LG Hollingsworth, cousin by marriage to Domini, and then wanted to trade girlfriends for night. This is one of those weird comments that's in there. And the question is whether or not the girlfriend references to Domini specifically, because that's really odd, because Domini is by marriage a cousin to LG Hollingsworth. But Damien has had other girlfriends in the past. And the question is whether or not this is an ex-girlfriend or his current girlfriend Domini, who at this point is five months pregnant. Well, and to be clear, she was previously a relative. The marriage that made her a cousin. was no longer valid because the two people that linked them are now divorced, and they were not blood related, so it could be Domini. When asked about what he had heard about how the murders had occurred, he stated that they probably died of mutilation. He stated that he had heard that some guy had cut them up. He heard that they were placed in the water and that they may have drowned. He stated that because of what he had heard, he believed that at least one of the boys had been cut up. He stated that one of the boys may have been cut more than the others. Damien felt that the homicide may have been for the purpose of trying to scare someone. And this is another one of those paragraphs which is pretty reliably carried over from the interview notes and the handwritten report by Detective Ridge. What's really interesting to me is is that he says that one of the boys may have been cut up more than the others. It's not really a stretch to say that. That's almost always the case. If you're gonna have a disaster like this, somebody's gonna be more injured than everybody else, almost every single time. So I've always been underwhelmed by this questioning that they gave him on that day regarding the cuts. Okay. The thing that jumps out at me in this section is it may seem like a subtle difference, but I don't think it is. So in the interview notes, Ridge writes, Herd in water may have drowned at least one cut up. In his handwritten report, Ridge writes, he stated that two were probably drowned, but that at least one of the boys had been cut up badly. And in the typewritten report, he writes, he heard they were placed in the water and that they may have drowned. He stated that because of what he had heard, he believed that at least one of the boys had been cut up. Okay, I think we can agree across all of those that they're talking about at least one of the boys may have been cut up. What I'm interested in is this drowning aspect. Heard in water may have drowned. Stated that two were probably drowned, and then that they were placed in water and they may have drowned. This handwritten report, I think Detective Ridge has slipped, and I will tell you why I believe that. This is May the 10th. What the West Memphis Police Department also receives on May the 10th are the cause of death forms for Christopher, Stevie, and Michael. I think that it is possible, I don't know this for sure. I think it is possible that Detective Ridge has spoken to someone in the medical examiner's office and has received information about their causes of death. Initially they will all say that they died of multiple injuries, but later when the West Memphis Police Department receives the autopsy reports, it will say that two of them died from drowning and then also had other injuries and that one of them died mainly from basically from bleeding out from injuries and will not list drowning as a cause of death. Based on information that they may have received, it is very possible and likely that Detective Ridge is asking leading questions based on the limited information he has received fr from ⁓ Dr. Pretty's office about the autopsies. That would make sense. It would also make sense that maybe this is why there's this slip and says that he stated that two were probably drowned and one had been cut up badly. And then he removes that from the handwritten report when he makes his typewritten report, maybe realizing that Damien didn't actually say that. That's information that people don't know, shouldn't be included in this final report. I'm guessing here, but that's what it looks like to me. So your idea here is that the handwritten report, Detective Ridge is kind of telling on himself that he has this information and then he pulls that back for the final typewritten report because it's pretty obvious that he was asking leading questions. You know, was one of these kids did they possibly die by bleeding to death or something like this? And Damien going, Yeah, I I think so. Well based just on the interview notes, probably died of mutilation. Okay, so he's been asked how they died. Some guy cut them up. Okay. Heard in water may have drowned. So what was the question that prompted that answer? Do you know if they were in the water? Did you hear if they drowned? Do you know where the boys were found? Were they found on land? Were they found in water? What were the questions that prompted this answer? And is the question simply what have you heard? What are the rumors? What do you know? Or is he asking specific questions about water about drowning and Damien saying, ⁓ well, I heard they were in water, so they probably drowned. We don't know because we don't have the questions to go with the answers. So you're saying it's not likely that Detective Ridge said, What do you think happened to the kids? He goes, Well, I think two drowned and one was mutilated. Absolutely not. There's no way Damien would have known that. Yeah. Unless he was the perpetrator. Unless he was the perpetrator. Yeah. So this whole conversation would have been resolved if they had just simply had a tape recorder. So Yeah, we would not be confused, right, if we had been able to hear the entire interview. So we got a little bit more to go. Yeah. Damien stated that he felt it was probably only one person because if it were more than one person, somebody would probably tell about it sooner or later. He said that there would be a fear of squealing by one of the person in the act if it were more than one person. This is pretty consistent with what you're seeing in the interview notes. The interview notes simply say believes that it was only one fear of squealing. That's all it says. And their handwritten report mimics this as well. When asked if the water had any type of meaning in the Wicca or Black Magic, Damien stated that water was a demon type symbolism and that all people have a demonic force. He further stated that people have control over the demonic force in them. We have a big problem here too. Yeah. So in the interview notes, Detective Ridge wrote, Water slash demon type symbolism. No control of demonic force all people have. The handwritten report said Damien stated that there was no control of the demonic portion of people. And then the last line of the typewritten report says he further stated that people have control over the demonic force in them. Yeah, so which is it, Ridge? Do we have control or do we not have control? Clearly he left out the word no, but that makes a huge difference in his report. When asked about how he thought the person felt that had done the homicides, he stated that the person probably felt good about what he had done, and that he felt good that he had the power to do what he had done. So the interview notes just simply say person doing would probably and then there was the word do, but he crossed that out. Person doing would probably feel good. And then the handwritten report says Damien stated that the person doing the acts would probably feel good about what he was doing. So Damien is talking about. the person as if the other person the the killer, not himself, not how he would feel. This is actually a very big deal, because this is one of those areas where Detective Sudbury has decided that a question has been answered on his questionnaire. Yeah, and we will get to that. When asked why he thought the victims were so young, he stated that the younger the victim, then the more innocent the victim would be. That in turn meant that the more innocent the victim would be, the more power that the person would have gotten from the sacrifice. So This is interesting. This is another place where Detective Ridge is clearly embellishing from his earlier notes. His interview notes say simply, younger, more innocent, more innocent, more power. That's all it says. In his handwritten report, he says Damien stated that the younger the victim would mean more innocent, and ⁓ in turn, more power would be given the person doing the killing. This is a slight difference from what he actually wrote in his typewritten report, where he said that the person would have gotten from the sacrifice. So Damien either said killing or sacrifice. In the typewritten report, it says sacrifice. And in the interview notes, it doesn't say anything about the killing, simply asking about the nature of the age of the children. Damien went further to explain that in his Wicca religion he knew that evil done comes back three times. He stated that meant that any evil done by a person would be rewarded by the person doing the deed having three times the evil done to him in revenge. The note that underlies all of this, the interview note, simply says evil done comes back times three. That's all it says. Does not get into his religion, doesn't get into any of this other stuff. And Damien later on will vigorously oppose that this has anything to do with his religion. This is just a philosophy he has. Damien stated that his favorite book of the Bible was that of Revelations because of the stories in it about what was being done by the devil and the suffering done by people at the hands of the devil. And in the interview notes, all it says is Book of Revelations. Good parts. And then in the handwritten report, he says Damien's favorite book in the Bible is Revelations. Either he's extrapolating or Damien did say some of this stuff and Detective Ridge just didn't write it down, but he remembered it when he made his typewritten report. What do you think? I mean the book of Revelations is pretty cool. It's very interesting for sure. It's a very interesting book. And if he said something about the things that the devil was doing and the suffering done by people at the hands of the devil. That wouldn't surprise me that he liked that part. Yeah, I mean the Book of Revelation is a very interesting book. Damien stated that he figured that the killer knew the kids went into the woods and even asked them to come out to the woods. He stated that the boys were not big, not smart, and they would have been easy to control. He also felt the killer would not have been worried about the boys' screaming due to it being in the woods and close to the expressway. He further stated that the killer probably wanted to hear the screaming. And so far as I can tell, this is actually pretty faithfully transmitted from the notes that he had during the interview, as well as the handwritten reports. They're pretty well reflective of this. Damien mentioned that he thought that it was scary that we were doing psychological profiles and that he was on an antidepressant that he said was amipromine. So yeah, he's afraid that they're doing psychological profiles or looking for people with mental health issues. And here he is on amipromine. And they're taking a look at this. Of course, what he doesn't know is that they have put in a request for an FBI profile on May the 7th, that Friday previous, and they're never ever going to get that profile. So this just scares him. And what they're trying to do is shake him up to see if he'll cough any information out. When asked what he thought the person who killed the boys was feeling now, Damien stated that the person probably thought it was funny and that he didn't care whether or not he got caught. When asked what kinds of items we should be searching for, he stated that we should be looking for stones in the area, candles, a knife, and some type of crystals. It is interesting that several of the things are s the same as the list from ⁓ Kinonia's in the list that he gave the police department to look for at the scene of the crime. And if you listen to our last episode Covenant of the Divine Light, we went over a fax that was sent over to the West Memphis PD where they were including information about satanic crimes and how to identify a satanic crime scene. And they identified those very same things, stones, candles, a knife, crystals being in that area. And Damien is indicating that, yeah, you would find those things, you know, candles and things like this at the crime scene if this was a satanic ritualistic martyr. Yeah, but kind of a test, right? Because if you ask Damien and he doesn't know or he says something else completely, then that might tell you he's not really into witchcraft or Wicca. It it says when asked what kinds of items we should be searching for. So we know that this is the question that Damien was asked. If Damien says you should look for the tale of a cat, a book on witches brews, and some sort of hex spell, right? It this doesn't match up with what we have learned from Marcos Quinonez. It's kind of a test. Are they seeing if this lines up with what they were told by this cult expert from the NYPD? Or are they completely on the wrong path? So the fact that Damien confirms that he thinks they should be looking for these at least four. Now Qinonez doesn't say anything about a knife. No, he doesn't. He talks about the stones, but ⁓ he spends a lot of time talking about the candles. Yeah. Candles. But a couple of these are the same, you know, in the same line. And It's very possible that Damian thought a knife was involved in the murders, so he would expect that you would find a knife if you're searching for the killers of these boys. So some of it makes sense, but the others he's clearly pulled from his knowledge, because he liked to read and learn about all kinds of religions. And he has admitted that he knows some things about witchcraft. He knows some things about Satanism. He knows things about Wicca and probably several other religions, probably Buddhism as well. And we know Catholicism and Christianity. He pulls from all of these different religions. So he's pretty knowledgeable about some of these things, especially for an eighteen year old kid. But I think it's fascinating that they ask this question after they've received this NYPD report and that Damien's answer is in line with what a cult expert said. Yeah, I think it's kind of interesting anecdotally because when I was seventeen years old and this Tannic Panic was happening, we all kind of had this expectation that if there was ever satanic crime there would be candles and crystals and stones in the area and all this other stuff. So this isn't exactly like some hidden forensic knowledge that only the West Memphis PD got from this guru up at the New York police department. This was common knowledge that this is what the police thought was behind a lot of these crimes. 'Cause it was all over T V and the churches were all talking about it. Like I said, this is not some type of hidden knowledge. Right. In the nineties You know, we were both teenagers in the nineties. So let's say we wanted to recreate some sort of site for a satanic ritual, we would know what to put out there. You'd put a bunch of stones in the shape of a circle, you might put a pentagram in the middle, you've had candles out there burning, you might have a bible out there. Like we would know how to stage it so it looked like it was some sort of satanic ritual. That was kind of common knowledge. Yeah, and you could freak out your friends and neighbors if you just had the right crystals, candles and knives in the area and put it all out there. You don't even need a pentagram, you just need the right things, the right artifacts, you know, and people would be talking about you, I you know, so and so might be into Satanism. I mean, it was a big deal then. All right. Damien was asked what kind of cigarettes he was smoking and he stated that he smoked the cheapest brand that he could find. And the reason why they're asking this question is because at the crime scene there are cigarette butts in the area. I will say that as a side note, I've always been entertained by the fact that they found cigarette butts in the area because you can actually see photographs of the West Memphis PD standing around the crime scene and in some of them, a couple of them are smoking cigarettes. I mean, this is kind of what people did when they were super stressed out. They would squat down and smoke and there's photographs of these butts all over the area. Damien stated that he felt the murderer would be someone local and that the person would not flee from the area. That's pretty consistent with the interview notes that Detective Bridge took. Damien stated that he likes books written by Anton LeVay, which would be satanic in nature. He also likes Stephen King type books. I think even Damien would agree that he likes Stephen King. Damien was asked about his sex life, and he stated that he now thought sex was boring. Yeah, and there's nothing in the interview notes that is illuminating on this at all. It was noted that Damien had the tattoo of E, V, I, and L. across his left knuckles and he stated that Jason Baldwin had the same tattoo on his knuckles. Yeah, completely consistent with what we see in the interview notes. At this time Damien was asked if he would submit to having hair samples taken and blood samples. He stated that he did not object to the samples being taken. It was further asked if he would be willing to take a polygraph examination if one could be scheduled and again he stated that he would take the test. At this point Lieutenant Sudbury is going to leave the room. So now Damien Eccles is going to be alone with Detective Ridge, so now it's just the two of them for the next couple of questions. Lieutenant Sudbury then left the room and attempted to set up a polygraph examination to determine if he was being truthful in his statements. I asked Damien if he had considered himself to be intelligent, at which time he stated that he thought he was very intelligent. He stated that he dropped out of school, but that he was self-taught and that he was very smart and more intelligent than most people. Now the interview notes are very sparse on this. All it says is considers self very intelligent. And the handwritten report simply says Damien considers himself to be intelligent. And that's all we see on this. With respect to when this polygraph examination would happen, we're gonna get into how we derive this, but this transfer of Damien away from Sudbury and Ridge, where he goes and does the polygraph, begins at about one twenty in the afternoon. So he will have spent ninety minutes in the interrogation room with Ridge and Sudbury answering all these questions. while these notes were being taken. The next two notes that we're seeing from Detective Ridge don't appear in his final report, but they are actually in the interview notes and in his handwritten report. And the reason why he omitted them, I don't really know, other than maybe Sudbury wasn't present to witness him putting them down, but he did take note of them. And the first of the two notes is really interesting to us, but it's interesting for the overall record. And the first interview note that he has there it says, No, Michael and David Wren. And the handwritten report says Damien knows Michael and David Wren and considers them to be like brothers. Michael and David Wren live over at Mayfair Apartments. We have mentioned their mother, a woman by the name of Diane Knight, she was interviewed in the door-to-door notes. So Damien does have a connection to that part of the world over there at Mayfair Apartments where his mom and Diane Knight are practically best friends. Pam has a lot of friends that are very, very close to her and Diane Knight is one of them. And David and Michael Wren are very close friends of the Hutchinson family. My understanding is is they are to this very day, they are strong supporters of Damien and are very active online. The second interview note is wants to be a writer, scary poetry. And the handwritten report says Damien wants to be a writer of scary books or poems at some time. And anybody who's ever had the chance to look at Damien's writing realizes that he's actually a pretty talented writer. He's very skilled with prose and how to put words together. And he went on to write some books that are quite readable and Quite enjoyable. The report goes on to say Lieutenant Sudbury had asked questions throughout the interview that he had listed. Lieutenant Sudbury kept notes himself as to the answers that Damien had given to his questions. At this time, Damien was turned over to Detective Durham for a polygraph examination. We'll be picking up the polygraph examination later on. We have one more bit of information we have to go through, which is Sudbury's questionnaire before we finish up this interview, and we switch it over to You being able to hear directly from the people in the room because there's no audio recording of any of it. So we need to hear what they have to say, what one side says versus what the other side says. And I will tell you this is gonna turn into a nightmare scenario for Damien because they're going to stack the deck against him. We went over the questionnaire that was authored by Sudbury the day before, as you'll recall. Shane Griffin went to interview Damien and Jason and administered this questionnaire, which was stopped by Gail Grinnell, Jason's mother, although Damien answered most of the questions. Well, on 510, as we explained before, Sudberry is observing Ridge's interview of Damien Eccles. And he is going to at times probably ask a direct question of Damien and get a response. At other times, he is going to take something that Damien says in response to Detective Ridge. And use that as his answer to one of these questions. So we're going to go through these and compare his answers from May the ninth and May the tenth. Just like before, I will read the question and Paul will read the answers to you. These are not in order because Lieutenant Sudbury was answering them as they're getting to those questions in Ridge's interview. So they are out of order. We're going to tell you what number it is if you want to follow along so that you can see the question and the answer. So we're going in the order in which Sudbury wrote these down in his notes. All right, number one, did you know the boys? Damien on the ninth said no. On the tenth he said never heard of them. Number two, what should happen to someone who did something like this? Should they have a second chance? On the ninth, Damien said the death penalty. On the tenth he said, if for fun, death, mental, just locked up should have a second chance. And that's kind of a difference, don't you think, from one day to the next to go from giving an excuse to someone who's doing it for some reason besides just having fun? Well, he's probably thought about it overnight. He's been confronted by Shane Griffin with that question and I'm sure it's still rattling around in his head. I mean, he's being interviewed, what, eighteen hours later? So it's still pretty fresh in his mind. He's probably been rolling this around in his head a little bit. Yeah. So now he's decided that If there was some mental reason that someone committed these homicides, that they were schizophrenic or they were bipolar or they were having a manic episode or some sort of psychosis that they should be locked up, but they should have a second chance and not be put to death. Number three, why would someone do this? And I'm gonna go ahead and read number four as well. Who do you think did this and why? So for number three on the ninth, he said thrill kill. And for number four on the ninth, he said don't know. And the reason why she's reading these together is because on the tenth, there's only a single answer given for both questions, which is sick, and then a very strange word satantic is written there. It's very obviously supposed to be the word satanic misspelled. So sick, satanic. Number five, could it have been an accident? On the ninth, Damien said no. On the tenth, was not an accident, I don't think. Number six, did you or do you know who did this? On the ninth, Damien said no. On the tenth, The response is Jason Baldwin, 300 pounds, lives in West Memphis, five foot nine inches tall, 18, hangs Lakeshore, dope, and drinks. LG Hollingsworth, cousin to Domini Tear. We just went over Detective Ridge's report. Clearly, this was not asked specifically of Damien the same way it was asked the day before. I believe that Lieutenant Sudbury has taken this from the conversation that Damien was having with Detective Ridge and Inserted this answer. Yeah. This is not a direct question. This is an inferred answer from a question that he is listening to in this conversation between Ridge and Damien, for sure. Now we told you these aren't in order. So now we're going to go to number nine. How do you think they died? On the ninth, he said they were cut up. On the tenth, mutilation cut up all three. Heard they were water, drowning, cut up one more than the others. Just one person. And we just discussed that. line of questioning in Detective Ridge's interview. So he clearly put this answer in there after Damien and Detective Ridge spoke about it. Number 10, do you believe in God, devil? On the ninth, Damien said, God no, devil no. On the tenth, it says, I believe in God, but a female God, evil forces, not a devil. So this is also in Ridge's report. This is probably inferred from the conversation because one of the first things that Ridge did was jump on the whole, what is Wicca? What is white magic? What is black magic? And he wants to get to the question of who Deanna Holcomb is. And so here we have this answer, which is almost certainly derived from his conversation with Rich. This is not a direct question asked of Damien by Sudbury. Number eleven, how do you think it would feel to kill or watch someone die? On the ninth, he said scary, scared. On the tenth, probably made them feel good, gives them power. Here's another one. Had Damien been asked the question, which is How do you think it would feel? So you're supposed to answer how you feel. The answer written here is probably made them feel good. This is clearly about whoever did it. It's not Damien. It's whoever committed these crimes. It made them feel good. This is clearly also not a direct question. For whatever reason, Lieutenant Sudbury has written this as the answer to question eleven. Well, he's lifting it straight from the answer he gave to Ridge. But it's not about himself. Yeah, Ridge is asking a hypothetical about a hypothetical killer, and he's putting that in as if Damien was asked that question directly of himself, how he would feel. Right. And they put that in there. Very misleading if you read this. Well, we're talking about Sudbury here. You're gonna realize our patience with Sudbury has been gone for a long time. And our patience with Ridge is gonna go pretty quick as well. Number nineteen. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to kill someone, even if you didn't go through with it? On the ninth, Damien said yes. On the tenth, he said, only out of anger to beat someone up. Whatever you do comes back to you three times. So do good. Also straight from the conversation with Detective Ridge. So another question that was probably not directly asked. And again, this is another question that is not in sequence. So we've gone from question ⁓ nine, ten, eleven. Now that was question nineteen. So Are you starting to pick up on a pattern on what Sudbury is doing? I hope you, the listener, are paying attention to what's happening here because Damien is going to have to confront this circumstance in a very short period of time when his life is on the line. And you can see also kind of in contrast to the answers that are given by both Damien and Jason on the ninth when they are being interviewed by Shane Griffin, the answers are very short. It's no, I don't know, yes, scary. you know, one word answers, he's not elaborating. He's not asking follow-up questions. The boys aren't giving extra information, or at least none that Shane Griffin thought was important to write down. And you can see these are like sentences and whole ideas when Lieutenant Sudbury is writing them down because most of these questions are yes or no questions. The answer to do you know who did this is yes or no. It's not list four people's names. That's not the answer to the question. The answer to the question is yes or no, correct? Do you know who did this? You do or you don't. They didn't ask you to give names. This is all Lieutenant Sudbury filling in these blanks, not asking direct questions of Damien and getting the yes or no or very brief responses that he gave the day before when Shane Griffin asked these exact same questions. You can tell that he is filling in these blanks the way he thinks that they should be answered based on what he is hearing in this conversation, whether it's accurate or not. It's really hard to go through this given the level of detail that you and I have put into this and try to convey and lay out the case for what has happened here, given where we're gonna go, because we're gonna play the trial testimony in a little bit. Both sides, Ridge, we're gonna give Damien and we're gonna give the cross examination of Damien. And the way this plays out, your blood will be boiling by the end of this. All right, number twenty-two. Have you ever been sexually or mentally abused? On the ninth, he said no. Sister abused by stepfather didn't bother him. On the tenth, no, would not make eye contact. This is probably a direct question from Sudbury in this case, because it's the only time we ever see this question brought up. Okay. The numbers have jumped around, but they've all been going forward. Now we're gonna go backwards. Number thirteen, how does being questioned make you feel? On the ninth, he said doesn't bother. On the tenth, he says scary. And I think this is an inferred answer that's coming from the question as to whether or not He's concerned about them doing a psychological profile and questioning him about this. So I think this is an indirect question that he's answering. All right. Number fifteen, are you a hunter, fish, camping? On the ninth, he said no. On the tenth, he said no outdoor sports. And this is probably a direct question from Sudbury in this case. Yes. Number fourteen, how do you think the person who did this feels? On the ninth, he said they like it. Happy. On the tenth, probably thinks it's funny. Won't care if he gets caught. And this is directly from his conversation with Detective Bridge. Yeah, almost word for word. Number 17, do you own a gun? Type, et cetera. On the ninth, he said no. On the tenth, he said don't own one. Twenty six. Have you ever experimented with controlled substances? On the ninth, he said breathed gasoline. On the tenth, he said sniffed gas. I'm gonna read twenty and twenty one together. Number twenty says, Are you familiar with Turtle Hill? 21 says, Are you familiar with Robin Hood Hills? On the ninth, he said he's not familiar with Turtle Hill, so he said no. But with Robin Hood, he said yes. On the tenth, Sudbury answered both of them with the words, have been in the woods. And this makes sense because his best friends that are like brothers are Michael and David Wren, and they live right next to the pipe bridge. However, Lieutenant Sudbury's handwriting is atrocious. And we actually had to look at this for a minute to decipher what it had been said because ⁓ there's been some question about what that first word is. And in fact, I think we may post this in our Facebook group and let you guys decide what you think it says. Yeah, it's pretty interesting because at trial they say it says something different. And what they say that it says is clearly wrong. So the question is is what is it that it really says? It almost certainly says have been in the woods, but if you're part of our Facebook group, you get to be part of this in little investigation on that particular question. I would look forward to seeing your comments. All right. Number eight, would you take a polygraph? On the ninth, Damien said no. On the tenth, he said, No reason I would fail. So that's a turnaround big time. And he is going to take a polygraph. He shouldn't, but he will. Number thirty two, why would your prints be in the area of or at the crime scene? On the ninth, that number for that question was not asked specifically, but on the tenth, he said they won't be. And the rest of the questions that we skipped were not asked or answered. They may have been asked, but they weren't answered on May the tenth. So we're not gonna go over those because we've already given you the answers for the ninth. However, Damien did make an additional comment according to what Sudbury wrote on his notes. And you have that additional comment, Paul? Yeah. He writes, I have no feeling about the deaths. It takes a lot to excite me. Nothing keeps me excited long. You could tell Sudbury does not like Damien, does not like him at all. And Ridge is on high alert with respect to Damien because he doesn't understand what Damien is trying to say. It almost feels like this religious stuff is over Ridge's head. And Ridge makes a lot of critical errors in his note taking about what the covenant of the divine light is, what Wicca is, what Satanism is. And he seems to be just kind of wrapping them all together and saying, Well, if you're a Wiccan, that means you're part of the covenant of the divine light and a Satanist all at the same time. And this is gonna go poorly. So with that said, we have some clips from the people that were present at this. Unfortunately, they didn't audio tape this thing. Had they done this, there'd be no questions. The audio tape would have been played at trial or probably not played at trial because there might not have been a trial at that point. But we have the eyewitnesses that were there. Damien was there. Sudbury was there. Now Sudbury does not give information about what happened on the 10th. That all falls onto the shoulders of Detective Ridge. So the first clip we're gonna play is Detective Ridge giving his testimony about his impressions and meeting with Damien during this interrogation, which went from eleven fifty-four AM on May the tenth until about one twenty PM in the afternoon. Did he tell you anything of how he believed that the children died? He stated that they probably died of mutilation. Some guy had cut up, cut the bodies up, heard that they were in bi in the water. They may have drowned. He said at least one was cut up more than the others. ⁓ purpose of the killing may have been to scare someone. He believed that it was only one person for a fear of squealing by another involved. What if anything did he tell you about the fact of water being present? He said water was a a demon type symbolism. And did he tell you anything about demonic forces? Yes, sir. He said that all people have a demonic force in them and that person would have no control over that demonic force. Did he what did he tell you? What if anything did he tell you about how the how he thought that the person felt ⁓ who would be doing this? He said the pos person would probably feel good. I did he say anything about the fact that the children were young? Yes, sir. He said that The younger the children, the more innocent they would be, and in turn the more innocent that person would be, the more power that would be derived by that killing. What did he say about doing evil, about how that returned? Doing evil would be returned three times. In other words, that evil done would be returned and revenge three times back to the doer. Did he tell you ⁓ which ⁓ Book of the Bible was his favorite book. Yes, sir. He said the book of Revelation. when asking him how someone would have gotten the kids to that area, he replied that the person probably knew the kids were out there or knew the kids and asked him to come out there. And what else did he say about the children? He said that they were not big, they were not smart and that they would be easy to control. All right. What if anything did he say about about the Children ⁓ screaming. Okay, he was not he said that the person who did the murders would not be worried about the screaming due to the being in the woods and near the expressway where all the cover sound would be there. And what else did he tell you about the screaming? He probably wanted to hear it, the person doing the murder. And did you what if anything did he say about how the person who did it felt? He said that the person who did the murder probably thinks it's funny, didn't care if he would get caught, and probably wouldn't get caught. Did he tell you ⁓ about some Things that you might expect to find in the area? Yes, sir. He said it you would be looking for stones in the area, candles, a knife, or crystals. Did he say whether he thought it was somebody ⁓ About where the person might be from. Yes, sir, he did. He said that he thinks that it would probably be someone local and that that person would not run or flee from the area. Did he tell you who his favorite authors were? Yes, sir, he did. Anton LeVay and it's a Satanist book and likes Stephen King novels because they're scary. Listen, if this interview had been recorded, they could have just played it into the record and then the prosecutor wouldn't have had to ask Detective Ridge 40 leading questions. That's all I have to say about that. Listen, it's like it was objection, Your Honor, leading. Objection, Your Honor, leading, objection, Your Honor, leading. Every question, because clearly he is asking the questions based on this report. Just read the report into evidence. Like what is happening? It's not even accurate. So I hope the listener now understands why we went through with grueling detail going over the three reports at the same time, showing where the interview notes were going to be evolved in into a handwritten report. And then that handwritten report was then evolved into a typewritten report. And that there was this metamorphosis that would happen in the conversation. Some of it was reliably transferred, but much of it was changed and altered and took on new meaning that wasn't there the original interview notes. And What is he testifying to? What's in the typewritten report? The evolved version. Twice over. He's testifying to that. And as a consequence, my patience, while I have deep sympathies for what the man went through on May the 6th, removing those bodies out of the creek, which probably scarred him for the rest of his life, along with the rest of his colleagues. I completely run out of patience with him on the tenth when this report gets written in the way that it does, and then later on he testifies to the report, which is in some ways inaccurate. Telling of what happened during that interview from his own notes. He's not even being honest to his own notes, let alone anything Damien is gonna say. Right. And Damien will have to rebut this on the stand and set the record straight because there is no recording. And we're not done. So Damien's attorney is gonna try and rehabilitate the situation and they're gonna cross-examine Detective Ridge on these questions. We're gonna play that clip. Senator Bridge, on May the tenth, when you were talking to Damian Eccles, was he a suspect in these murders? Yes sir, he was a suspect. Yeah, the questions that you stated some responses to w was there a series of thirty-two questions that y'all had prepared? Yes, sir. Right, if you want to refer to those. Alright, now was this a set of questions that was asked to a number of of suspects of witnesses in this particular case? Yes, sir. All right. Do you recall approximately the date that y'all first prepared this particular questionnaire? Sir, I didn't prepare the questionnaire. My recollection is that Lieutenant Sudbury prepared it. All right. Do you recall approximately what date it was that that this questionnaire was ⁓ compl was initially written out? ⁓ prior to the tenth. I'm not exactly sure when. All right. Do you know if there were other individuals that you asked the same thirty-two questions to before you questioned ⁓ Mr. Eccles? Okay, sir. You're referring to me using this sheet. Most of the time I did not use the sheet. ⁓ Lieutenant Sudbury would use this sheet as the interview continued. He would look at those questions and if in a response applied to a questions that's where you would check it off. All right. I noticed there's a a typed up version that has numbers. One it doesn't appear well it's not Thank you. Yes, sir. All right. That appears to be doesn't appear to have all thirty two questions listed. It looks like there's a lot of them but some of them kind of skip around. So is your testimony that during the the questioning of Mr. Eccles, if y'all would cover a certain question and he'd give an answer relating to that question, y'all would write something down about it? Lieutenant Sudbury would. Okay, but it's not something that y'all went directly down all thirty two questions in in chronological order. No sir, I did not. I noticed one of the questions here list ⁓ listed number nine says, How do you think they died? Was that a question that you ask ⁓ almost everybody that y'all had interviewed? Yes, sir. Right now, I noticed well during the approximate two hour interrogation of Mr. Eccles, did you ever tape record your conversation? No, sir. And did you ever videotape your conversation? No, sir. Did you ever go back and after you had your written notes ask Mr. Eccles to look at them and read them over and sign at the bottom agreeing that this is what he said? No sir, I did not. And I believe you have there was a the long hand sheet It's looks like legal length paper, about four pages. This was were these the notes you were writing as you went along? Yes, sir. Right. And then later you went back and I believe you had written out on a investigative report form, the one with with lines on it, approximately three pages sort of condensing his responses. In outline form, yes. In outline form, okay. And then you went back later and actually had it typed up, a typed up version. I typed it, yes. Okay. But basically all three of these relate to essentially the same two hour period of time that you interrogated Mr. Eccles. Yes, sir. All right, at the time that you were questioning Mr. Eccles on ⁓ May the 10th, did you think that this was a cult-related killing? I thought it was a possibility, yes, sir. Okay. Did you also think think that this was a sex killing? Yes, sir. Okay, I notice another question listened on here number 10. Do you believe in God dash the devil? That was a question that you asked Mr. Eccles? Yes, sir. All right. And was that also a question that you asked all the individuals that you interviewed using this particular questionnaire? Yes, sir. Okay. Now there were other there were some people that you talked to, ⁓ if you're asking for a particular thing, you didn't go down the full set of questions. Right? I never used the questions per se. Okay. All right, I noticed a another question on here, number twenty seven, do you believe in white or black magic? Was that a topic that you covered with was that a a subject that you covered with Mr. Eccles? Yes sir. No, that's right. You had had mentioned a few minutes ago that in your opinion that Mr. Eccles when you were take questioning him on May the tenth was a possible suspect? Yes sir. All right. Do you have your ⁓ typewritten report, the first paragraph? Yes sir. Approximately one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. About eight lines down middle of the page where middle of the paragraph where it says at this point. Yes, sir. Okay, please complete that sentence. At this point, Damien was not considered to be a suspect. And only general knowledge questions were being asked. All right. So is that your testimony that when you were talking to Damien Eccles on May the 10th, he was not a suspect? No, sir. I told you he was a suspect. Okay, but the report indicates that Damien was not considered to be a suspect. Is this an error? May I explain? Yes, sir. Okay, in talking with him the knowledge he had, the responses he gave to the questions, my belief was he turned that tide to be a suspect. All right, so after you questioned Damian Eccles on May the tenth, then he became a suspect? Yes, sir. All right, did you also ask a question of Mr. Eccles? I know on the form here, do you believe in white or black magic? Yes, sir. I believe that's question number twenty seven. Yes, sir. And that's a also a question you asked Mr. Eccles. Yes, sir. Okay. And then you also ask him number twenty eight, do you have and own a Bible? ⁓ yes, sir. And that was also a question that you asked him? Yes, sir, I think so. And during the entire two hour interrogation that you had with Mr. Eccles, he denied involvement in these murders. Is that correct? Yes. Was there an article published in the West Memphis newspaper about what ⁓ speculating on what the the the manner and the details of the death were? Not to my knowledge, I'm not sure. Okay. Were there rumors running rampant in West Memphis during this time in May about what happened out of the crime scene? There were all kinds of rumors, yes. And did some of these rumors include some of the th same things that Mr. Eccles told you about during your interrogation? specifically as to the question number nine about how do you think they died. Well there were all kinds of rumors of how people thought they died, yes sir. Okay. I noticed on the notes on page number two, this is of a long handwritten about during the middle, probably died of mutilation. Mr Eccles was not the only person that told you that the children the kids probably died of mutilation, was he? No sir. And he indicated that he'd heard it, that they were in the water. And that was also on here? Yes sir. Yeah. Okay, now he had stated that there would probably be stones in the area? He said that would be something to look for. Okay. Now when you looked at the crime scene during the two or three times you were out there, you never found any stones at the crime scene, did you? No, sir. Okay. He also said there might be candles at the crime scene. Did you ever see any candles at the crime scene? No, sir. ⁓ he also said there would be knives at the crime scene. Did you see any knives at the crime scene? No, sir. Okay. He also said there would be crystals at the crime scene. Did you see any crystals at the crime scene? No, sir. Now when you're conducting interviews do you is it do you get a much more accurate listing of of what questions you ask and what questions a or what answers a suspect gives if it's tape recorded? A better record? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And on May the tenth, the West Memphis Police Department did have a tape recorder. Yes, sir. And during this during the investigation, there were lots of times when the West Memphis Police Department would tape record interviews of various individuals, correct? Yes, sir. Say that he thought these murders were somehow d demonic murders. Well in his response to that why the penis would have been cut off, or he believed that it was cut off, was that ⁓ satanic in nature. Alright, did you tell him at that time that the penis was not cut off? No, sir, I did not. I know the question number nineteen. his answer or the question was, have you ever wondered what it would be like to kill someone even if you didn't go through with it? And I believe your the answer is on nineteen. Only out of anger to beat someone up, whatever you do comes back to you. Three times soda's good. portion. I I don't have that type response to that question. All right, did you ask him two different questions about if ⁓ why would his fingerprints be out of the scene? ⁓ question number twenty nine states why would your fingerprints be at the scene? Yes sir. I didn't ask him that question. Lieutenant Sudbury may have. Okay. Did you or Lieutenant Sudbury tell Mr. Eccles that y'all didn't find any fingerprints out of the crime scene? No, sir, we didn't. Also, question number twelve on the thirty-two pa number questionnaire dealt with where were you on Wednesday, May the fifth, nineteen ninety three, between six PM and ten PM? Yes, sir. Okay. Did you ask Mr. Eccles where he was after ten PM? First page of the handwritten notes it begins with Tuesday. These are the questions as I asked him. Asked his recollection of where he was at Tuesday, where he was on Wednesday. and he explains to me that shortly after he returned from the Sanders on a visit, he had gotten on the phone with Holly George and talked with her until eleven thirty PM and was there the rest of the night. Okay. ⁓ specifically as far as the question that was is type written but where were you be on Wednesday, May the fifth, between six PM and ten PM? Was that a time period that you asked most of the the suspects that y'all interviewed during this investigation? Again, I didn't use that questionnaire. Do you recall if you ask any of the suspects where they were between one AM and five or six AM on May the sixth? I don't remember asking anybody that specific question, no, sir. That's right. And when you ask him about what his favorite book of the Bible was, that's when he told you Revelations was? Yes, sir. Okay, and did you was that a question that you asked other suspects in this case? I don't remember asking that of anybody else, no sir. And when Mr. Eccles you asked him of something effective what type of books did he enjoy reading? Yes sir. Okay, and that he told you I think is it Anton Levy and Stephen King? Yes sir. Okay. Yeah, in your opinion was is there anything unusual about those being the type of books that Mr. Eccles likes to read? Anton LeVay is a book of satanic rules and involvement. Stephen King's seems to be horror movies, ⁓ horror books. And if you're asking if I felt that was strange, yes or I did. So you can see how this is going. This is not going well for Damien at all. Ridge is answering straight from his typewritten notes, his inferred answers that he's getting. That are evolved through his reports. But furthermore, Damien's attorney is now asking about the 32 questionnaire. And the 32 questions on the questionnaire were not asked or answered by Ridge. He's asking Ridge to answer questions that are actually should be supplied by Sudbury. This is a disaster. There's just no way that Ridge could effectively answer or be impeached about something that somebody else said. He's effectively providing hearsay evidence and everybody's kind of letting that happen. This is not to Damien's benefit. Detective Ridge even puts in his report that Sudbury was there. Sudbury was asking some of his own questions, taking his own notes. That should have been reflected in the record. How many times did Detective Ridge have to say, I don't know. I didn't write this questionnaire. I didn't use this questionnaire. I didn't write down the responses to any of the questions on this questionnaire. He said it over and over and over again. And for whatever reason, the state did not ask Lieutenant Sudbury call him to ask him about this questionnaire and the responses given on the questionnaire. He did testify to some other things, but he was not called in reference to this. This was all put on Brian Ridge's shoulders, who had nothing to do with it. But it is going to be used against Damien. Yes. And what's really fascinating about this is the admission that Damien comes in as a person of interest and he comes out as a suspect. He is the suspect in ninety minutes. In an interview that is not recorded, in an interview that he should have never have ever shown up for. Less than twenty-one hours earlier, his best friend's mom is saying, You, Jason, are under no circumstances to talk to these police. And incidentally, I want to throw this as a side note. Steve Jones did go to Jason Baldwin's house on May the tenth and was trying to get him to talk. And his mom said, Get lost. You're not talking to my son. Leave him alone. You're picking on him. And here we got Damien. Down there. His mother's actually waiting out in the hallway, but we haven't gotten into Pam. She'll be a bigger figure in the upcoming episodes. But Damien is in there with these guys for 90 minutes, and this is 90 minutes that's going to change his life. Obviously, Detective Rich does say on the stand that Damien was a suspect. He has to explain why his report says he's not a suspect. I don't even buy that. As we've said, his handwritten notes, his handwritten report, and then his typed report were all done on May 10th. I imagine they were done with some time in between. He's gotta have time. He's busy doing other things. He's t interviewing other people. Somewhere throughout that day he has these three documents that he has written. You would like me to believe that by the time he typed his report, based off of his handwritten report, which is based off of his notes of his interview with Damien, that by the time he typed that report on May the tenth, at whatever time of the night that was, that Damien wasn't a suspect at that point. I can swallow that he wasn't a suspect, maybe, when he came in for questioning just before noon. I cannot at all believe that Detective Ridge did not consider him a suspect by the time he typed his final report on May the tenth. Yeah, it's this is not good. And that's gonna be manifested by their behavior towards Damien. So they brought him in and they're asking him, hey, you know, talk to me about Deanna Holcomb talked to me about this witchcraft stuff, but their demeanor is going to change as they become more and more persuaded that he's their guy. And Damien talks about those interviews. I'm going to play the next clip. This is Damien Eccles recalling this interrogation. Do you recall talking to Officer Brian Ridge and another officer that that first two-hour time period? Yes. All right. Did you hear Officer Ridge testify earlier a couple of days ago about conversations that you had with him on that date? Yes. Okay. During the conversation with Detective Ridge, did you deny any participation in these murders whatsoever? Yes I did. Okay. Did he ask you about some wicked beliefs? Yes. Okay. During the time that that Ridge talked to you for that well, I'm back up. During the entire time that the West Memphis Police Department talked to you on May the tenth Did they ever have a tape recorder running? They had one in the office but they didn't turn it on. All right. Did they ever have you at the conclusion of an interview look at their notes and have you sign them saying, Yes, I agree this is everything that I said? I don't think so. All right. ⁓ do you recall a c part of a conversation with Detective Ridge about the significance of water? I can't really remember all the questions but I think they did ask that. Okay, do you did you hear the response that ⁓ Detective Ridge testified about in court the other day? ⁓ he said water was some kind of demonic force or something like that. All right. Did you tell ⁓ Officer Ridge that water was a demonic force? Most of the questions you asked me were just like yes or no questions. And h when I would say no, I guess he would go, Well well, do you suppose and he would start something like yeah, I guess so. Did he ask you a lot of leading questions? Yeah, like ⁓ he asked me, do you think ⁓ one of the kids was hurt worse than the rest of ⁓ So yeah, I guess. Did you ever have any independent knowledge of any of the details of what happened to the boys? Just what was public knowledge on TV. Okay. And was there also by this time well then the newspaper articles were there articles in in the the West Memphis paper and the commercial appeal every day about the murders? Yes. And w was this a a topic that everybody was talking about? Mm-hmm. Damien basically is verifying exactly what we're saying here is that there's a lot of leading questions, that they became more and more agitated and aggravated as they went through the questioning. By the end of it, they were quite cross with him. They were angry with him. In our introductory clip, you can hear the claim that they were going to fry his ass, right? That's the very first thing you hear at the beginning of this podcast. And that is the words of Detective Sudbury, as reported by Damien Eccles. So this is. An absolute nightmare situation that's playing out. But we want to give you a little bit of food for thought on who you believe on this because Damien is saying, I learned a lot of the stuff that they're talking about from the news. And we did some research and we were able to pull up the news coverage. And this is the first news story to hit the television all the way back on May the seventh. And we're gonna go ahead and play that for you. Scene remains sealed off. This morning investigators continued searching the wooded area where the boys' bodies were found. Police say they were found in water with their hands and feet tied up, but would make no comment on reports the boys were sexually mutilated. So is it plausible in your opinion, Kristen, that he picked this up from the news? Of course. And I think that very likely he heard far more about the crime from other people, people in the neighborhood, than he ever heard on the news. But yeah, that the news just reports things and he can go, Okay, well, this thing that I heard from my neighbor, I guess it's true. They just repeated it on the news. So maybe that corroborated some of the stuff he was hearing. But Yeah, from people we've talked to, it was everywhere. Like that's all anybody was talking about. Damien even said that on the stand. That's all people were talking about was these murders because it was so horrific. And everybody had an idea about how it happened, why it happened. They were adding details that were not fact. But yeah, he definitely got some of his information directly from the news, from a news reporter. And had nothing to do with being there. Yeah, remember he said that he first heard about it from Jason Baldwin. And then he started hearing about it on the news the next day, which would have been May seventh. That's when this report would have been airing in the morning. He probably woke up. He's hearing about it and then knocking on his door is Steve Jones. And so now he's getting even more information. The information about the possible missing testicles, about the children possibly being in the water and the urine and all this other stuff. And they are off to the races on him. He didn't have a minute to think before these news articles came and they were already knocking on his door. This is completely consistent with the testimony he's providing. And Damien being eighteen, I don't care how smart he is, he's still, you know, a kid basically. And when in particular Jones is talking to him and asking him about these very specific details, Damien is going to assume that the things he's asking him are fact about drowning, about tying, about satanic symbols being there. Whether or not it's possible that they were drowned to remove urine from their mouths. So Damien's going, ⁓ that's what happened to these boys. Like you've just given me all the details about what happened to these boys. And he assumes that it's fact because he's hearing it from a police officer, whether he trusts that police officer or not, otherwise. And so he probably went and told somebody else what Steve Jones told him. Well, we know he told Murray Ferris, and Murray Ferris told Chris Latrell. And Chris Lattrell is calling everybody in the covenant of the divine light, telling them And very rapidly the entire town knows we're gonna discover that the local skating rink is talking about this stuff. Yeah. Wig including these details. It becomes common knowledge very quickly. Right. And so these details are fed basically to Damien before he's formally interviewed by the police. And so they're like, ⁓ how does he have this insider knowledge? Because one of your guys gave him details that weren't even factual. Because all he's been talking about all weekend long since Friday is this crime because he's been interviewed by the police on Friday, again on Sunday, and now he's in there being picked up by the police on Monday. He's been talking to his friends about it the entire time. And the rumor mill is going crazy in that city. And a large amount of that rumor mill is focused towards Damian Eccles or people very close to Damian Eccles. A lot of his friends and family are going to be looked at just as critically as he was himself. So as if it wasn't bad enough they went in and gave this interview and he has to now go and defend himself on the stand during trial, the other real pitfall of going to trial is that you have to weather cross examination yourself. And one of the things I will say is that the state's prosecuting attorney, a gentleman by the name of Brent Davis, is ruthless. And Damien Eccles is going to be questioned by Brent Davis on the stand for his life over the stuff that was said on this May tenth interview. For two days. And we're gonna play some highlights from the first day and some highlights from the second day. So this is from the first day. Now these tattoos that Mr. Price asked you about, the pentagram up here or the chest. How'd how did the tattoo artist do that? No, I did it myself. How'd you do it? With India Ink? And what? ⁓ part of them with a razor blade, part of them with a ⁓ needle. Describe to me how'd you do that. You dip it in the ink, then you cut the top layer of skin. Okay. Is that how you did the evil that you tattooed on your knuckles? Mm, that's why they don't stay, 'cause they're never deep enough. Okay, is that when you tattooed the evil on the knuckles, is that so is that significant in the Wiccan religion? No. Isn't evil kindly a primary premise of the satanic beliefs? The belief in evil and that evil brings you power? From what I've read, most of their beliefs involve around self indulgence. And so the evil what's what'd you do it for? Just 'cause I thought it looked cool. And the same way with the pentagram? Mm-hmm. Okay. And then you had another tattoo up on his shoulder? Mm-hmm. Okay. Did you carve it in too? Mm-hmm. Okay. And did you carve the one in on your hand? Mm-hmm. Now you talked a lot about the officers putting words in your mouth. Isn't it true that you're the one who told the officers that the children were mutilated? Yes, I said that. And that was on may the tenth, ninety three. The autopsy was done on May the seventh, so we're talking about four days after they're recovered, the bodies recovered. You said that they were probably cut up one more than the other. Those are your words, aren't they? He asked me, was one cut up more than the other? I said yes they were probably. You indicated that you heard that they drowned? No, I indicated I heard they were mutilated. So when he put down in his response that question Heard that they drowned, he made that up too. That just isn't true. They've made up a lot of stuff so far. Answer my question if you would, please. No, it's not true. Okay, so you never said that. The officer just put that in on his own? Yes he did. And that when he put in there probably regarding whoever committed these crimes probably thinks it is funny and that he won't get caught and won't won't care one way or the other if he did. Step did you say that? Yes. mean the officer didn't write didn't make that up, did he? No, I said that. Okay. And You told the officer it was was that you told him that you thought the person who did it would think it was funny? Yes. And wouldn't care one way or the other if he got caught. Probably not. And LeBay, the person that you indicated to the officers that was one of the persons you read a lot, that's that's not Wiccan or white magic, is it? No. Did you tell him in that statement that you had been a member of a white witch group for five years? No. Okay. So if that's contained in his report that you told him that you had been a Wiccan or White Witch for five years, that would be inaccurate. I told him that. I did not say I was a member of a group. But you had been says he has been a member of this group for about five years. I've never been a member of any group. And so if he put that in his report, you're saying that's inaccurate. Yes I am. He made that up. Yes I am. I think it's a pretty common tactic, right? So for example, he says, Did you say that you were a Wiccan or a white witch or into white magic? And Damien says, No, that's not what I said. Like he's misconstruing what I said. Well, are you saying that when Detective Ridge wrote that you were into white magic or Wicca or whatever else, you're saying that he made that up, Damien? Yes, I'm saying he made that up. So you are you saying that when he said that you're a Wicca and you're white witch and you're whatever, you're you're saying that he's lying. Yes. So now Davis has gotten to say all of these descriptors about Damien. three times in a row to get the exact same response. Like that's a tactic to put that in the juror's heads. Like these are the words that describe the defendant, even if he's denying it. I'm gonna pound it home. I'm gonna say it over and over and over, even if the defendant is saying that the report isn't accurate. And Damien's defense attorney should have raised an objection and said he's already answered the question. Right. Asked and answered. Yeah. We're not even remotely close to the trials. We're gonna get to it at some point and we're gonna be going through that with the same level of detail we're going through this, but you can see this just isn't gonna get any easier for Damien. Davis is ruthless. But one of the things that we get out of this is Damien is telling Brent Davis, I was asked a bunch of leading questions. They asked me yes, no. If they didn't get what they wanted, they would reas question in another way to try to elicit a yes no response. And so he's telling them straight out, I wasn't part of a group of the covenant of the divine light. I was a Wiccan or I was involved in with getting to know about this stuff involved either with Wicca or magic or whatever it is that he is referring to in his mind when he's saying that, but he's not saying I'm part of a group. It's absolutely true. When we look at the notes, he doesn't say he's part of a group. That group identity of him being associated with Wicca and that Wicca is associated with the covenant of the divine light, and the covenant of the divine light is somehow associated with Satanism. That is completely put together in the notes of Brian Ridge. So Damien never says that a single time, and he's defending that position. It would have been nice, one, if there was a tape that they could play, or two, even better, that Damien hadn't spoken to them to begin with. He would be in a safer position than he ever was coming in there. He thought he could talk his way through this. He just talked his way into being a suspect. And so far, the only group that's been named that has anything to do with some alternate religion, Wicca, whatever, white witches. Is this group that Murray Ferris talked about that we've already listed a couple of times? Damien's not on that list, right? There's a Mikael, a Michael. We don't know who that refers to. There's no last name. I kind of think it doesn't actually refer to Damien because he would have known his name, his first and his last name, and he probably knew his old name and his new name. So I think he would have made that clear if Damien was to be included on that list. I think it refers to someone else. So Damien's not even on the only list they have of people who are practicing this witchcraft. They have no proof that he's a part of any group. Yeah, Damien's association with this is that they're part of the friend group, but not necessarily part of his religious group. They have common friends. In fact, Domini's ex boyfriend happens to be one of Murray Ferris's neighbors, you know, that kind of thing. They know each other by association. Chris Latrell, as we're gonna find out, lives in Broadway Trailer Park, right next to Damien and Pam and Joe Hutchison and Michelle Eccles. So they all live close by. They all have alternative religions. They all have kind of common cause to be friendly with one another. Damien is interested in Wicca. These guys are into Wicca, probably even more than he is, but Damien has some alternative ideas that kind of go in a different direction as well because he has a strong influence from an ex girlfriend named Deanna Holcomb. We haven't talked about Deanna and what she's into, but she will talk about that in her police interview soon. We have one more clip that we got to play. Just to show you how far down this is a cautionary tale. Don't talk to the police, or you might be in a situation just like this. You testified yesterday about the questions that were asked to you on the questionnaire. Do you remember who asked you those questions? I think it was Detective Ranch. Okay. And he asked to you on question three, why would someone do this? Do you remember him asking you that? Mm-hmm. Okay, and your response was that the person was sick or a Satanist. Is that correct? He asked me was it possible if they could be a Satanist? I said, Yeah, I guess. Okay. So it's your testimony that you didn't say that the person was sick or a Satanist, that Mr. Ridge, the officer, is the one who made those statements and you just agree? That's correct. Okay. So those weren't your words. Officer Ridge was talking about a sight in this night. She Now On question number nine, when he asked you how do you think they died, and its answer is mutilation, cut up all three, heard they were in the water drowning, cut up one more than the others. Is that again what Officer Ridge said and you just agreed? No, I had saw that on TV, newspapers, people talking. And You knew it about the drowning, correct? I knew they were in the water. I didn't know that they drowned. You knew that one was cut up more than the others? Whenever they were asking me about mutilation, that I thought different from mutilation, what I call mutilation was different from what I've seen up here. I was asking about one being cut up more than the other. He asked me, was it possible he said, do you think one was hurt worse than the others? I said, Yeah, I guess. So again, that particular area is one of those things where Officer Ridge told you, and that wasn't your response. You just responded about the drowning and mutilation. If he didn't get the answer he liked, he would go back and try to get me to say something else. And it's your testimony specifically that you aren't the one who said one was cut up more than the other, that it was Officer Ridge who said that. I agreed with him when he said that. Okay. But the other parts of that answer were your words, not not Mr. Ridge's. Question number eleven. How do you think it would the person feels that did this? The answer was probably makes them feel good, gives them power. Now I guess Officer Ridge said that too. No, I use common sense on that. Okay. If someone was doing it then they must have wanted to. And if they were doing something they wanted to, it must have made them happy. I don't think they were doing it because someone forced them to or because they didn't want to. Okay. So in your mind The person that killed these three kids, it's common sense that killing three eight year olds would make you feel good. Whoever did it, it must have. And it gives them power. That's that's also another common sense perspective from you. Pretty much. Okay. How when you say gives them power, is that based on what you read in these books? No, I had nothing to do with that. Just the crime itself. Killing three eight year olds gives you power. I don't understand that. Explain that to me. They probably thought well th they were like overcoming other humans or something. Now On question number 19, he asked you, have you ever wondered what it would be like to kill someone even if you didn't go through with it? And your response, did you respond to him, Gosh, I've never thought about killing anybody? I don't remember what I said. Okay. Well did you did you tell him you'd never thought about killing people? I don't remember. Okay. The response was See if I can read your writing. Okay, Your Honor, I'll I'll repeat. This is I can't read Officer Sudbury's writing. You responded to him that whatever you do can come back to you three times as bad or as good. Okay. And that's where did you get that statement? That was your remark, right? Right. Okay. Is that something that you learned when you were practicing to be a Catholic? No. Where did you kick that up? I don't remember. I guess I've just heard it all my life. Now Officer Ridge has that when you were asked these questions that you say it was a thrill kill. Is that your words? He asked me what did I think could be the possible motivation. Okay. And you indicated that a thrill kill. Is that right? Right. Or a satanic act. Right. And also says in here that there was a number of three victims, and it was symbolic because three is a special number in some of these religions. Is that your response? No, I w I wondered what three had to do with it. 'Cause he made a big deal out of me wearing three earrings and anything with the number three, he was making a big deal out of it. Okay. So that wasn't your response. You're saying that Officer Ridge made that up and you just went along with it? I agreed with him, so he would leave in a line. Okay, but but the but the significance of the three victims and that sort of thing, Mr Ridge back on May tenth was the one who made that connection. Right. And that did you also tell him that each person had a demonic side to them? I believe every person has a good side and a bad side. Yes. Well did you were those your words when you referred when he got written down here he stated that there was no control of the demonic portion of people? He asked me, did I think there were some people that that that could not control that site? I said, Yes, I guess there is. ⁓ I don't know if it was me or him. Is that something you've read about in some of your books and things and literature you study? Not really. It's common sense. It also states that Damien stated that the younger the victim would mean more innocent and in turn more power would be given the person doing the killing. Right. Okay. Did you say that? Yes. Okay, those are your words. Mm-hmm. Kind of sounds like that guy we talked about yesterday, right? Mr. Crowley. Is that where you got that idea? I saw that on several movies, books. Well d did you pick that up when you were studying to be a Catholic? No. You also said and told Officer Ridge, is it not correct, that you told him that the killer knew the kids went out there, knew the kids and asked the kids to meet them out there. Is that what you told him? He asked me, was that possible? I said yes. Okay. So once again, are you saying that you didn't say this, that he just threw an idea out there and you just agreed to it? Right. Okay. And if he says something different, that'd be he he'd be lying about it, right? You're the one telling the truth. I wouldn't put it past Did you also tell him that they would be not big, the speaking of the three eight-year-olds that were murdered, they would be not big, not smart, and easy to control. Right. And you told him that. When he asked me why did I think they chose those victims? Did you tell him about the killer not being worried about the victim screaming because it was located near an interstate where the noise level was high? No, I told him it was because they were in the woods. ⁓ In the woods. And you indicated those are your words to the officer that the killer wouldn't worry about the screams because the woods would be such that people couldn't hear them? He asked me, ⁓ did I think that they were worried about the screams or if they tried to stop them from screaming? And I said no. And he asked me, why not? I said, Well, they were out in the woods, so I don't guess there would be anybody there to hear ⁓ scream. So why would he be worried about it? And did you also tell him that the killer would probably want to hear the kids screaming? If he got off on killing people, he'd probably like to hear ⁓ scream. Okay. Those are your words though, right? Right. And is that also part of the common sense that whoever kills eight year olds would feel good and whoever kills eight year olds would like to hear ⁓ scream? Is that part of your common sense philosophy? I figure they must have if they did it. And you told him that the person was probably someone local, didn't you? Mm-hmm. And that they probably wouldn't try to leave town, correct? Correct. Now he also asked you about what books you like to read, didn't you? Mm-hmm. And you told him one you told him Stephen King, right? He wrote that down. And you told him Anton LeBay, correct? Yes. I haven't read anything by him, but I know who he is. Well, how did he get Stephen King? Because he was looking through the books in my room. Okay. But I mean, how did he write that name down? Who told him Stephen King was one of your favorite authors? He asked me, Did I like him? I said, Yes I did. Okay. Did he ask you about Anton LeVay? Yes he did. And what did you tell him? I said, I haven't read anything by him, but I am familiar with him. Okay. And he's the head of the church of the Satanist Church? Yes, he is. Again, they're just demonstrating how Damien is asked questions and then forced to give an answer, often agreeing with something the detective says, or actually just giving his opinion. If three eight year old boys were killed, the person who did it wanted to do it, right? If they'd wanted to do it, then they're probably happy that they got it done, that they accomplished what they set out to do. They might feel powerful because they have committed these murders. These are things that make sense to Damien so he says them out loud and it does not help him at all. So he's up on the stand and his attorney is trying to explain to the jury why he said the things that he said because the way it's reported by Detective Ridge and Lieutenant Sudbury is It sounds awful. It sounds like he knows more information than he should. It sounds like he has some sort of insight into the killer. It doesn't look good for Damien. So he is forced into a defensive position where he has to explain what is being written in these reports. And Damien's saying, That's not what I said. Or it that's not what I meant. Or they asked me this question and I answered it, but They're misconstruing what I said or they're taking it out of context. And it's a horrible position for him to be in. Yeah, he's being crucified by the typewritten report of Ridge and the handwritten questionnaire of Sudbury, which we've already demonstrated is on shaky ground, but it's not revealed that that is shaky ground, not during this trial. And so Damien has got a massive uphill battle, and right now the jury's got one choice before them. We either trust Damien Eccles or we trust detective. Brian Ridge. And that's not going to turn out to be as hard a decision as you think that's going to be because Damien's attorneys did not do a good job of showing that the questioning and the answers that were presented as being Damien's words, like some type of reflection of this interview, was accurate. It was an extremely distorted view of some of the things that he was saying. The only thing that should have ever been admitted, in my opinion, because it's the only thing that's reliable, were the actual interview notes by Ridge. But here we are. I'm going to go out on a limb here. Maybe I'm wrong. In this case and in others where there were interviews conducted and most of them not recorded, I think that is on purpose. Yeah, he's not the only one that's not going to be recorded that they believe has a religious motive for this crime. If you are perceived to have a religious motive for this crime, you are not going to be recorded. And if there's no recording, how I mean you can say whatever you want on the stand, but then you have police officers who are testifying to something else. Who is the jury gonna believe? If the questioning is, well, how do you think the boys died? I don't know. Well, they were found in water, what do you think? I don't know. Well, if they were found in water, do you think they might have drowned? Yeah, I guess that's possible. Writes down the answer, the boys drowned. That's how they get from point A makes the boys drowned, yeah. To point B because he's now just agreed with this hypothetical scenario. Presented to him by a police officer, and that's all that gets written down. If there's no audio or video of this interrogation, the jury is left choosing who they're going to believe, just like Paul said. Do you believe Detective Ridge, who's up on the stand telling us what happened? Or do you believe Damien, the defendant, who's up on the stand saying what Detective Ridge is saying is inaccurate? They have to make this choice with absolutely no evidence. besides the testimony of these two people. Served on a platter by a very angry prosecutor, Brent Davis, does not hold back. And like I said, he's relentless, he's vicious. And that's just a little taste of what Damien went through for two days on the stand. I mean, this is rough. So earlier I was reading this typed report from Detective Ridge. There's one part left that I have not read. I'm gonna read that to you now. It says, After a time, Detective Durham came and met with me and other officers and reported that Damien had been untruthful and according to the polygraph was involved in the murders. It was determined that at this time Detective Durham and Lieutenant Sudbury would continue the interrogation that had begun when it was discovered that he was being untruthful. So Damien's nightmare day is currently in a downward spiral and it's going to accelerate. That's what we're gonna talk about in the next episode. If you want to join the discussion, we strongly encourage you to contribute to the case by following Crooked Tree Pot on Facebook, on X, or to follow us on YouTube. Next time on Crooked Tree. You are Bill Durham with Westminster Police Department who's previously testified. Yes sir. The report that that we have says during the post test interview the subject denied any involvement in this crime. That's is that the language on your report? That's correct. And is that accurate? Do you want me to read the report? No, sir. I want you to ask me my my question, please. ⁓ Officer Durham, do you have a copy of the tape recording that you made during your entire interrogation of Mr. Eccles? I didn't tape record his interview. You didn't tape record any of his interview with you? No. All right.