Latest / I Choose Me with Jennie Garth / I Choose … to Be Awake! with Jen Hatmaker

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I Choose … to Be Awake! with Jen Hatmaker · I Choose Me with Jennie Garth

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garland. Hello everyone,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: welcome to I Choose Me, a podcast about the choices
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: we make. So this week's guest is not only birdening
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: a new book, she is also a brand new grandmother.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: But welcoming Weston Joseph is not her only new beginning.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: From the heartbreak of waking up to a marriage in
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: crisis to the treacherous work of rebuilding a life, Jen
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Hatmaker has walked through fire and come out stronger, more vibrant,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: and wide awake. Join Jen and me as we laugh
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: and cry through choosing ourselves the hard way and reaping
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: the rewards that only come from fierce self awareness and
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable healing. Oh I'm so excited to talk to you.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: You have no idea. Okay, first, all things aside, you
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: are a hattie.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is the most important thing we
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: could discuss.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: It really is.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: So.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: I've heard women tell me in time, like lately more
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: and more how becoming a grandmother has changed their life.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, how does that feel for you? It's
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: so it's so insane. This is my oldest son and
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: his wife. So this is first grandbaby and in our family.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: This is first kid, first son, first grandkid, first great grandkid,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: first nephew. Like he's doomed, Like he's absolutely doomed. And
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: we have this massive family prepared to over respond, over
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: attend to him. I mean they'll just I don't suspect
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: we'll have any restraint at all. And it's perfect, which
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: is great news for us. We got a perfect baby.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. We're dreamy over here.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I bet West and Joseph.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Western, Joseph, I mean, I can't handle it. Like, and
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: these are new parents, if you know what I'm saying,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Like they're the young version of parents. They're different than
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: we were, and so they have a lot of boundaries
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: and like rules and whatever. And I just keep thinking,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: that's fine. I want to be respectful. This is your kid,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: you're the parents. But I swear to God if you
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: revoke my privileges in any way, I will mutiny. Mutiny.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: You have to. I mean, yeah, that's not going to
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: be acceptable.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I want to just talk about your.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Book, Okay.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: I loved it. I felt so connected to your story,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: even though it is not mine at all. There are
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: similarities in situations, but your upbringing very different from mine
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: and the way your early life. I mean, I feel
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: awake for you just from reading the book, because it
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: is the ultimate story of like figuring out who the
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: fuck you truly are, finally for yourself. Yeah yeah, And
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: I love how you start the book from the end
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: and then you go back and give it all context
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: and great storytelling. Well done, and clapping for you, I think.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: No, wonder, Oh god, what a nice thing to say.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I mean it because I'm looking at a strong, vibrant woman,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: and before all this happened, you didn't even know how
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: to pay your mortgage. You know, you were in a
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: very different life than you are currently.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so crazy to like say that. It's so
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: crazy to hear it back because even you know, I
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: lost my marriage five years ago after twenty six years
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: of marriage. You know, I was a child bride. You
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: were nineteen. It's insane. But even five years ago though,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I still had like this kind of career and this
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: this big life. But then when you strip away some
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: of the crutches, the places that I had been phoning it,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: in the places where I had simply made assumptions of
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: trustworthiness or competency inside the marriage, that goes away and
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: I finally went shit, I don't know how much money
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I make in a year? What am I doing? What
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: have I been doing? Like? What have I been doing?
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: And so the process of it was so chaotic because
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: on one hand, I am trying to simply get through
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  Speaker 2: the day because the marriage, the ending of our marriage
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: was so disastrous and so traumatic and.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: So shock for the people that don't know, give us
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  Speaker 1: the tragic to the dates of the tragic.
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  Speaker 2: It just ended in an affair, but not the kind
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: where I have something to tell you you I it
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: was all shock and all accidental, just middle of the
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: night discovery. Like everything, it's not original. It's not an
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  Speaker 2: original story, it really is. I am offering nothing new
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: to the middle aged male lexicon here, but when it
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  Speaker 2: happens to you, it is so so disruptive. It is
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  Speaker 2: so tragic. And we have five kids, two of them
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  Speaker 2: were in high school at the time. You know, we're
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: in it like we're in the thick of life.
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  Speaker 1: And you're in business together. You're you know, you're doing
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: everything together as you were taught you should.
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  Speaker 2: We were in lockstap we were running a nonprofit together
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  Speaker 2: and previously had been in a ministry like that was
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: sort of our come up and was this very specific subculture.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: And I just had never known as an independent adult
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: minute in my life. Again, I was a nineteen year
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: old bride, So we literally grew up together. We grew
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: up together, and sometimes, like this isn't a prescription to
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: say that never works. I've got plenty of friends who
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: had young marriages and they grew together, and yes, I'm
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: nice for them. How nice for them? We felt the
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: tension of our connective threads frying for quite some time
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: as we grew up and into sort of different spaces,
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: and well, we just grew up. You know, I didn't
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: know what kind of adult I was going to be
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: when I was a teenager, and neither he didn't know
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: what kind of adult he was going to be.
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  Speaker 1: You guys, had you had the dreams. Sure you thought
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: you knew, and it seemed like you were so in
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: it together from the beginning of creating this magical, harmonious,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: beautiful life that your parents lived and that the people
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: around you and your community are living.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: And I was prepared because that structure works best when
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: the woman has a degree of subservience, when she is
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: saying you are kind of the leader of our marriage
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: and of our family and home. Your job matters the most,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: your preferences. You're the tip of the spear, right and
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: and the rest of us are kind of back here,
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: just pushing you forward. And so, because that was the
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: environment that I grew up in a faith world, I
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: was prepared. I'm like, great, that's that's my gender limitation.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Like that is that I'm in lockstep with that job description.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: And I will be a very good wing man, and
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: he will always be a trustworthy leader. And thus we
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: plugged ourselves into this outlet that promised a handful of
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: guaranteed outcomes. You know, everybody play their part, and you
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: do your thing, and you do yours, and you stay
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: here and you come forward, and then you get a
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: happy life. That's the transactional like structure. And so I
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: believed it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, why wouldn't you?
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  Speaker 2: Why wouldn't I work for my parents? I saw it
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: work elsewhere. I you know, I didn't come up in
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  Speaker 2: a generation where a ton of the women in my
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: ecosystem were questioning any of that. They were the cogs
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: in the machine. Of course, women are. I mean, it's
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: not as if the men are actually leading every system
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: and structure that exists on earth with integrity and excellence.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: It's the women you know back there in the behind
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: the curtain. But it was fraying already. It was fraying
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: already and then disintegrating toward the end until it was
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: a catastrophe.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: I have a certain level of respect for what you
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: just said about that, you the cog in the wheel,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: like so many women feel. I have never felt that way.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: So that's how different our stories are, but also so parallel. Yeah,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: well I love I love hearing your story and hearing
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: what a different version of this looks like.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. Right when I talk
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: about awake, I'm like, Okay, look, there's a small story
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: in here, and the small story is the story of
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: my divorce and recovery and rebuilding process. But there is
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: it is nestled inside a larger story, which, on one
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: level or another, virtually everybody in our generation and our
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: age group would go, oh, same on that one, same
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: on that one. We all grew up inside a patriarchal
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: culture in various rooms that we all found ourselves playing in.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: There were some gender limitations, and they those existed in
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: different ways and they manifested differently, but we know what
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: they look like. We certainly got a story about our
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: bodies from the time we were what four younger, and
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: so that is ubiquitous for our age group. This story.
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  Speaker 2: We this is what your body should look like, This
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  Speaker 2: is what your body is good for, This is how
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  Speaker 2: your body can be used. This is who your body.
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  Speaker 1: Girl. Be a good girl, yep, make girl pleasant, smile.
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  Speaker 2: Walk into every room, read it and give it what
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  Speaker 2: it wants. And the problem is we're good at that.
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  Speaker 2: We're so socially and emotionally competent that most of the
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  Speaker 2: women I know do know how to walk in a room,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: gauge the temperature, and adjust accordingly. And so it's a
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  Speaker 2: skill set that can be used for our own empowerment,
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  Speaker 2: but we were taught to use it for the comfort
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: of everyone around us.
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  Speaker 1: True, very true. Yeah, after I read what happened, where
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: you came from, how it all transpired, I felt immediately
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: excited for you, like genuinely excited for what is next
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: for you, because yeah, it sucked, it hurt, it blew
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: up your universe. But my excitement really comes from what
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: is basically what it feels like your rebirth.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for saying that. I
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: love hearing that, and that that thought, that perspective comes
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: from women who have already figured out how to live
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: in their own freedom, in their own autonomy, in their
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: own agency. And here's the good news about that that perspective.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: It's true. You're right, it is true. We are so
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: interesting and capable and powerful. And I don't love the
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: system that sometimes something has to die in order for
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: that truth to live. But it is the truth. That
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: is how it is sometimes. And had I been more
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: honest back then, before I lost my marriage, I would
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: have already known that. I've already said that, And if
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: I would have been more courageous, I would have chosen
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: that before all this trauma chose me. Ye, But I'll
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: never know. I was too afraid to lose it all.
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  Speaker 2: I couldn't. I didn't have vision for what it might
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: look like on the other side of that. The disruption
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: of it was such a deterrent that I was willing
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: to sit in my own unhappiness, in my own misalignment.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: I guess forever, I think I would have stayed. I
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: think I would have stayed, So.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I feel exactly the same again. Completely different situation and circumstances,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: but I hear you. I felt the same, like I
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: am supposed to keep this family together. I am supposed
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: to be the glue, you know, and if i am not,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: then I'm a failure and I'm ashamed and all the
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: things we do to ourselves.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Totally totally and then even lacking the imagination for what
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: my kids, how resilient they are, I felt also in
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: a codependent way, responsible for their life experience, which meant,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: if I'm a good mom, i am absolutely shielding them
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: from pain, from disruption, from loss. I'm certainly not going
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: to choose it for them. I you know, that is
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: such a ridiculous way to live and not true, not
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: true at all. But also so that kept me from
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: thinking with a clear head, what was the right thing
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: to do, what was the next best thing in my
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: life because I had this overdeveloped sense of responsibility for
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: literally everybody else in my life except myself.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, this is where it gets good, because it wasn't
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: until your rebirth, I like to call it that that
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: you started to live in a completely different way, and
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: this is where choosing yourself really started to happen for you.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, I mean At first it was so terrifying. I
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: felt like I was in a constant free fall where
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: I was so used to my safety nets. I had
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: always had a partner, another person. I'd always had these
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: institutions that I had a lot of traditional success inside,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: which looked like marriage and to some degree like the
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: institution of church or faith or however you want to
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: put that. And I had so I had these like
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: big systems as my scaffolding, and so having like fail
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: fail on both of those, having lost a partner. So
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: now I'm all by myself in my upper forties trying
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: to figure out how to pay my taxes. So at
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: first it was just like a tailspin. Every single thing
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: was new, like everything, and everything was sort of consequential.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, these weren't small things. But once I figured
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: out pretty quick, oh my god, I'm good at all this.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: I'm smart, I'm super capable in my story, and this
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: is what mattered to me the most. I am trustworthy,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: like I do not have to outsource my will being
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: to another person who is not safe ever again, ever again,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: and hope that they treat hope that they have integrity,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: and hope that they I will never do that again,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: and I don't have to do it again because I'm
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: good enough for all of this, Like because you don't.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: You never know when you put that kind of like
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: faith or responsibility or whatever it is that on someone else,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: the good in you wants to think, if I have
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: faith in this person and I just believe it will
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: be so and they will take care of their end
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: of the responsibilities and treat me with respect and grow
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: old with me. But that doesn't do it.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: It doesn't. And I had that story for a really
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: long time. You know, I didn't have twenty six years
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: of a tragic marriage, right, you know, I a lot
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: of that muscle memory was built in in a genuine
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: way where we were partnered and we were in the
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: same boat, growing in the same direction, and those were
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: like really lovely years and really beautiful years. And I
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: don't have regret. I don't know how to. I don't
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: know that regard wrehat has a place in anyone's story.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: If I regret my whole marriage, I would have to
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: regret my whole life.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: And all the good things that you learned.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: That's right, and the children, that's right, the all of it. Yeah,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: that isn't I can't. That doesn't actually make sense to me.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: But I think integrity would have been way more honest
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: when the train was beginning to leave the tracks, And
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: hindsight shows me I knew my body, knew my wisdom,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: knew my intuition, knew my body was raising the flares
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: yep and going listen. We got some alarm bells, and
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: we would like you to pay attention.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: And that always happens, but we don't. We either ignore
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: it or we pretend that it's not happening and we
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: just shove it aside because it's real inconvenient.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's so inconvenient. And you know, I've
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: had some folks ask me, do you feel like you
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: ignored your own red flags, your own sense of knowing
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: that things were absolutely going wrong because of optics? Because
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: you have this public life and you had a public marriage,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: and you want you wanted people to think of you
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: in a certain way. And I would never be like
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: so unself aware to say that had No, that's a
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: non factor. But I feel like I can say, truthfully,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: it's less that I wanted to appear a certain way
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: to other people and more that I actually wanted my
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: marriage to work. I just didn't want to face what
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: I knew I needed to face. I didn't want to
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: look directly at all these red flags waving in front
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: of my face because I did not want them to
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: be true. It's not that I didn't want to I
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: just didn't want it to be true. I'm like, I know,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: I'm going to find our way through this.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, you want that picket fence life, you know, and
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: you're building it and you seem to have and you
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: don't want to break it down.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: No, And I even though I knew things were going
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: so wrong and we were so sideways and something at
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: the time, I couldn't exactly say what it was. Now,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: of course I know, but something was very, very, very wrong.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: But my little brain of denial just kept going, we'll
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: get through. We'll get there. I don't know how, but
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: he will get over this. He will come back to himself,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: and then he will come back to me and this marriage,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: and this will be a rough bump on the road,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: but we will get over it. And I just told
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: myself that over and over, but without the necessary subsequent
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: steps of actually engaging everything that was wrong. It's like
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: I just kind of closed my eyes hence the title
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: of the book, awake and just went maybe this will
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: just work itself out while I'm not looking at it
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: seems like a great approach, like what could go wrong?
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Why didn't that solve problems?
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I admire about women and
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: about you in situations like this, and I honestly admired
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: about myself. I spent a good amount of time and
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: blame and pointing the finger and being the victim. But
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: there comes a point when you have to stop pointing
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: the finger and start pulling the thumb and you have
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: to look at your pardon things. Yeah, and that's when
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: real change starts to happen.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Undoubtedly, I am so glad I did not write this
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: book three years ago. I was still living inside a
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: bit more of a trope of victim, villain, good, bad, guilty,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: innocent that the earliest version of the story, which maybe
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: even has its place. Yep, I'm not even I'm not
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: even judging us for sitting in that place of just
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: absolute like betrayal and tragedy and loss to just go well,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: just you know, fuck that guy. There's a place for that.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: But to your point, that runs out of fuel. And
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: if we do not look at that differently and began
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: to go, all right, what's my part here?
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: What? What? What did I bring to this table? Where
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: was I complicit? And what did I sign on for?
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Then we will just become this miserable, resentful victim. And
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: like my counselor told me a billion times when she
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: was working with me on all those codependent behaviors that
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: apparently I had deeply exhibited my entire marriage. She's like, look,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: this is your problem. She's look at your problem where
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: you either deal with it? But yeah, I was like,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: that's so, don't pay you to be mean to me,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Like I came here for you to tell me this
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: is his fault and poor me. But she's like, you'll
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: just walk these habits and these patterns right into your
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: next relationship. You will keep them up with your kids
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: where you're already exhibiting it. And I'm like, yeah, so
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: you're right.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: And that's when you ask yourself, is that the life
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: I want? Is that the woman I want to be?
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: That's right? Is that the rooleman I want to be?
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: And I had nobody else left to take the blame.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: And so part of independence includes being responsible for yourself
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: and your garbage and your dysfunctions. And that is where
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: I finally found myself after I got through the just
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: the bottom of the ocean season of grief where everything
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: is just chaos. By the time I kicked to the
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: surface and had some fresh air again, I went right,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: what's my deal? And I hope that that comes through
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: in the book. I hope that I was at least
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: self aware enough to go, Here's where I made our
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: marriage harder, worse, more difficult, and more unlikely to heal.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: And I can see that now with much clearer eyes.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it happens for so many of us,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: because living in codependency or living in that world where
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: you are catering to someone or supporting your husband, your kids,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: your household, you get so lost in it, and it's
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: really easy to not look in the mirror, to not
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: face the reality of your part in how things got
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: to where they are. And that is hard work.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's horrible. It's so horrible, and that is the
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: crucible for everyone who struggles with dependency because, by definition,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: like our approach to all the people around us, the
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: ones that we married, the ones that we birthed, the
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: ones that we came from the friends that we've chosen.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Is this sense of responsibility for them, how they feel,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: what they think, how they're behaving, how they are responding,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: what is their environment? Is there any way we can
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: control the outcomes of their choices, because I'll sure try.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I also want to make sure that everybody sees
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: them in their in their best light.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: God, I know you, you know.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I read that in your book. That takes a lot
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: of energy.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Well, and back to your point, I don't have time
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: to look in the mirror. I'm too busy looking at
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: everyone else's mirrors. I'm making sure their mirrors are all
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: shined up for the world and for themselves, and I
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: am taking on responsibilities that should be theirs. And so
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: that's at least with my care I robbed them of
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: a lot of independence because I came in with too
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: much control, which, by the way, isn't even true. You
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: were never in control of somebody else. That is a lie.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: That's an absolute lie. That's what you learn. It's an illusion.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: It's more fun to live in that illusion, isn't it.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: It's just so much easier. I have so many ideas
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: about how everybody else should live. I mean and they're
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: such good ideas. If they would all just listen to me.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: I have a vision for your behavior, and I just
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: if you'll sit down and listen for thirty five minutes,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: I will give it to you. But it doesn't work
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: that way. That only creates resentment, that deteriorates relationships, It
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: steals autonomy from everybody around you. It's that is a
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: sinking ship.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: For sure. Okay, So speaking of your children, you said
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: that two of them were in high school when this
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: all went down, but they had grown up in that house.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: They were suffering the dysfunction in their own ways, but
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: probably oblivious also because that was just their life. Yeah,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: how did they take the news initially? And how are
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: they doing now?
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: That first year when I was so afraid of their
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: own of their pain, I was just so afraid of it.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: I remember one day my daughter Sydney, who at the
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: time was twenty, and we were in the living room.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: I remember where I was standing when she was talking
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: about how she was feeling and what felt sad and
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: what felt hard and what still felt really confusing. And
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: I was so committed, I was so uncomfortable with her
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: pain that I did what I do what codependents do,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: which is try to huh somebody else through their actual
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: experience to get to the ending I want for them.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: So I'm I'm ten miles down the road trying to
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: protect her future relationship with her dad, her future wholeness
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: and wellness. I have this thing that I want her
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: to get to, like down the street, and so I'm
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: shoving her that direction with you know, don't forget, and
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: I'm massaging the truth. Well, you know one thing that
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: you know, I hope you can understand, was And finally
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: she just stopped me and she said, Mom, when you
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: do this, when you do what you're doing right now,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: you are making me feel so lonely, like I am
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: the only person still sitting here in this room, sad, hurt, confused.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: You are making me feel all alone in my pain,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: like you are well past it, and you are dragging
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: me try to get past it, and it's making it work.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: And I was like, holy shit, wow. And I took
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: that to my therapist of course that week and told
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: her all this and she goes, all right, Jen, here's
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: what you need to know, especially the ages of your
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: kids period. And this is probably a rule for me
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. She's like, at this point,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: you need to prioritize comfort over coaching. And she's like,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: if you reach for coaching first, you isolate your kids
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: and you make them feel alone.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, you're right, so true. I can relate
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: to that as well. Trying to fix it for them,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: trying to give them the tools that you know they're
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: going to need, help them get to where they can
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: be healthy again and not be saddled. Oh my gosh,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: it's so true. And all you need to do is
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: just hug them and just let them have their feelings because.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: They're going to have them. It doesn't matter what we
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: do or don't you do, they're going to have them.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: So we might as well get in there with them,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: hold their little hands and say I cannot fix this.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: You're going to have to just feel this and experience it.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: But I at least will never leave you alone in it.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: I'm right next to you.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: You know. One of the things I learned in therapy
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: was because I want to fix things too, I so
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: badly want to make everybody feel better and know that
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: you're going to end up okay. Yeah, But I learned
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: a saying that I've used many, many times with my
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: girls throughout the many years that we've gone through this.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: I say I wish I had a magic wand and
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: I could change things h or make everything better perfect,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: but I won't have that. And it kind of gave
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: them a new way of understanding and also me that
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: like realization that I can't fix it.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: That's right, but it's such a nice thing to say,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: I wish I could. I do not wish this pain
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: for you. I do not wish this suffering. I can't,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: but I wish. Yep. It's such a lovely that's sitting
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: next to them saying I'm at least here, I'll feel
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: it with you. I can't change it, but you at
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: least will not be alone in it. I think that's everything.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: I think our kids are just going to have to
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: live a real life like we did. It's unfortunate. I
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: really wanted to work around Yeah, it's inevitable.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Okay, so let's widen out for a second. Okay,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: life exploded, hard work, self awareness. Now you're on what
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: you rightly call a midlife renaissance. In this stage of life,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: you know you are reconnecting with yourself how are you
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: doing that? And are you intentionally choosing how you want
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: your life to look more moving forward?
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Some of the some of the bones of that new
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: person came from necessity, because I had to learn how
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: to become just a functional, daily independent person for all.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: And I have a big life, just like we have
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: big lives. They have a lot of moving parts, we
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: have a lot of people in them. Work is big.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: I have a big family, like nothing as small in
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: my whole life. And so some of just the functionality
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: of all right, here's all my own, here's my own
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: retirement plan, here's I drafted a will like boring life adulting,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: which I had to do and had a incredible It
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: was an accelerant to this deep, new growing sense of
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: pride like I can not only can I do all this,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: I've done it, I learned it, I tackled it. I'm
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: better at it than even my partner was. I'm more responsible,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: I'm more trustworthy, I am in charge of my own future. Period.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: I do not have a plan.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: B You abolt to identify in that stage a newfound
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: love for yourself.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, every day felt kick ass for a while.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Every day was just like I'm doing it. I am
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: making so awesome. I'm so awesome, Like I've done so
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: many hard things while by the way, we're all trying
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: to recover emotionally and like psychologically, and then there's all
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: these logistical things that just happen. So all of that together,
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: I think coming to terms. And this is for anybody
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: with what we are actually capable of is pretty incredible
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: to bear witness to. And so some of that was
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: just by nature of doing which I don't need a
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: parade because I had to. So it's not even like
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I like, I'm going to choose to figure out how
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: to pay my quarterly taxes, you know, had Yeah, I
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: had to. I had to. But then I did it,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: and then I was like, oh, wow, what else can
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: I do? I guess I can do anything. I guess
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: I can do anything.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: And so that when you survive something like what you
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: went through, what we go through, when these things happen, yeah,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: you realize like there is nothing I can't handle.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I kind of that is true, and this is a
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: dark version of what you just said. But also it
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: built something else strong in me, which was now I'm
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: not there's nothing else I can lose like I lost
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: what was so precious, what felt so important to me
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: and so valuable that I didn't even have a vision
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: for my life without my marriage, like without my intact
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: family in the way that I had always known it
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: and built it, And so having lost it, I also
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: ended up going well, I'm way less afraid to lose
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: anything else at this point. I feel like I am
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: less risk averse. I'm less attached to what anybody literally
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: in the world thinks of me, or their assessment of me,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: or whether they understand me or they're misinterpreting me. I'm
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: just less connected to it. I feel like I've already
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: done my losing at such a high level, and I'd
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: already lost a version of my career before, right, So
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what else? What else? I those external factors
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: now have less power over me because I lost them
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: and lived, And so I like this version of me
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: on the on the downslope of suffering because I go, okay, okay,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: I don't have to make decisions just based on fear anymore,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: because I'm too afraid to lose something. I I think
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: I can make decisions more out of integrity, more out
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: of alignment, And that goes into a lot of categories,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: and so that was a really unusual and surprising outcome
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: to loss.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, it's the best outcome. Okay, So a little
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: bit of a fast forward. I adore what you found
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: your met Camp. Oh, I know, I love it so much.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: It like rings all my bells. Tell our listeners about that,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: because it's wow, what a thing you found for yourself
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: that helped you through such a difficult time.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: That was my favorite entry to write in the whole book,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: by the way. I loved it. And you know that
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: the book is set up just in it's not in chapters,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: it's just in vignettes, and so there's just three sections,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: the end, the middle, and in the beginning, and met
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: Camp is the first entry in the beginning. It's that
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: back third of the story where the sun rose again,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: where the sun came out. And I'm like, I'm going
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: to make it. I I'm not just gonna make it.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be happy again. I wasn't sure about
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: that my first year. I'm going to be happy again.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: I my life is in front of me. But me
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Camp was an accidental life changer. I we had come
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: up on the first summer, so I was right at
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: the one year mark, and my youngest was going to
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: a month of camp, of summer camp, and she needed it.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: We were both broken. Our bodies were broken, our brains
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: were broken, our hearts were broken. So she's going to
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: this pure, wholesome, beautiful camp in Maine. I had never
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: been to Maine in my life, but I know that's
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: the right response for anybody who's ever been to Maine.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: They're like, oh Maine. Yeah, so dreamy, so dreamy. But
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: she's going to Maine. But she was still pretty fragile,
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: and so, in an absolute spontaneous blaze of glory, I
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: tell her, honey, how about this. This is three weeks
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: before camp starts and I had just signed her up.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: We were just in crisis. That's a whole different story.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: I'm like, if I come to Maine the whole time
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: that you're at camp, so that if you need me
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: for any reason, I can be there in two hours.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: I just felt like I needed to put this emotional
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: safety net under her. Well, how am I saying?
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: What am I even talking about? I've never even been
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: to Maine. I don't even know what I'm saying.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Have you ever been gone on a trip by yourself.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: I've never even been in the movies by myself. Like,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: what am I doing?
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: And so in like a minute, I had to figure
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: out what am I. I guess I'm going to have
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: to figure out a town in Maine and then maybe
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: a house. I don't know. So fast forward, I end
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: up renting this house in Bar Harbor for the duration
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: of her camp, this entire camp, and it changed my life.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: I know that that sounds hyperbolic, but here I am
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: traveling by myself for the first time in my life.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: I'm forty seven years old, I old independent, I'm I'm
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: paying for it myself. I'm on my own dime. I'm
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: in this beautiful, idealic Hallmark movie of a town. I
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: am delighted beyond anything I can ever explain.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Everything is like fresh and new.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: I'm in a movie. I'm in a movie. Every store,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: every dog, every sweatshirt. It was cool and beautiful. I
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: just could not and all of a sudden I realized,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I'm good company. I like me. I
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: choose me if you will, and I it changed me
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: so much that independent joy. It wasn't just independent. I've
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: been independent for a year, but it was that independent
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: delight to be able to just absolutely delight in life
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: again on my own, not because somebody, because I got
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: a new boyfriend, or you know, some some external thing
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: came into my life to bring me joy. Agan, it
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: was just just me, just me being happy by myself
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: and so delightful that I have repeated I called it
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: me Camp and I didn't mean. I didn't mean to
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: brand it, but remy my daughter was at camp and
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: I was like, well she's at camp. I guess I'm
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: at camp. I'm at me Camp, and I just branded
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: it on the spot. I have now done it five
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: summers in a row. So now every single July, I
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: travel by myself one small little town somewhere. I've never
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: been on the water somewhere, and it is maybe the greatest,
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: most outrageous thing I've ever done.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: I need to go to Mee Camp so bad right now,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: I mean that sounds just so good.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Go. I know so many women since I I've done
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: me Camps now for five summers do him. And so
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: every summer, like my community starts going off on their
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: meat camp plans. I just nothing can make me happier
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: in life. And seeing all these women and some of
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: them are perfectly happily married. You don't have to have
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: your life fall apart to do this. But they're just
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: like and who travels for a month? I understand that's insane,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: But a lot of them will be like, I'm going
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: for four days by myself.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: I'm like, off, you go, there you go.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: You're a good company, you don't need anybody, but you
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: go do it.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Isn't it the best feeling to be able to take
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: tragedy in your life and turn it not only into
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: something that changes your life for the better, but also
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: you're able to change other people's lives because of it. Oh,
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: It's like, it's like, it doesn't get me better than that.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: It's everything. It's absolutely everything. I The joy and the
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: loyalty and the support and the encouragement that I have
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: received from my community just living the story in front
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: of them for the last five years is it is unmatched.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: I don't even know how to I actually don't know
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: how to describe it. But it's like we take turns,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: we take turns, going Okay, I have an idea. It's
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: called me camp, y'all go, And then they're like, okay,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: we have an idea. How about you do this. It's
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: just beautiful. Women are the best. Women are literally the best.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that until I found my community, and yep,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: it was on social like finding women that were in
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: similar situations, are going through the same life phases. And
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: I never knew how much comfort I could feel from
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: that support and then in turn the just absolute joy
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: of being able to help somebody else get there.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, Jenny, it's the truth, and we're all
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: just doing that for each other. I was just writing
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: this to my community and telling them that because people
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: ask me a lot, and this is a very fair question,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: why would you want to write such a personal memoir?
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Like it's it's in there, man, like it is very vulnerable,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: it is, and I put things in there that I
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: don't know, and they're like, why would you want to
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: do this? And when it all fell apart in twenty
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: twenty and I have such a public facing life and
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: I have this huge community of women, and also I
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: don't have I honestly do not have the gear to
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: carry on as usual when something is tragic. So I
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: just went radio silent. I just completely went offline. I
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: canceled everything in my life, pulled out of everything on
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: my calendar and went off social media entirely. So since
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: my community is located there, that's noticed. So everybody's like,
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: what is what is going on? And so when I
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: finally had to come and tell my community that this
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: marriage that I have been putting in front of them
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: for almost twenty years was destroyed, and I was so
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: afraid had I blown my credibility?
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Like had I had you let people down?
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Had I let them down? I talked about marriage and
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: family for so long, like I just had no idea.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: I just didn't even know. But the amount of love
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: and encouragement that I got back of women saying endless,
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: women less, I'll never get to the bottom, of them
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: saying we've been there, We've already walked that road. You're
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: gonna be okay, keep going, keep walking, keep coming. I
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: promise you your life is not over. And at the
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: time it fell over. So I thought this, I don't
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: know this truth yet, but I told them that for
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: me felt like all these women holding up these lanterns
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: from further and down the path, when at the time
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: I could not see two inches in front of my face.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: Everything was I was in a dark night of the soul,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: and here's all these women holding up their lanterns going
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: you're gonna be okay, keep going, we promise was so
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: meaningful and important to my recovery process, and so thus
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: to me, I feel like awake is my lantern. It's
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: my turn. It's my turn to hold up my lantern
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: and to tell women keep going, keep coming. The second
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: half of our lives, I suspect, are our best days,
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: no matter what, no matter what we've lost, no matter
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: what's changing, no matter what we're transitioning into or out of.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: This is my lantern to say, keep walking and you
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: can do it. I believe it, I really believe it.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Live my story is not special. Yeah, and I'm not special.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: I'm not. Nothing about my story is special and I'm
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: not so if I have lived it, anyone can period.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Yep. Oh it's the best, the best, the best message. Okay,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: you've had what sounds like just a season of choosing yourself,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: which brah bah. But before I let you go, yeah,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: jin hatmaker, I want to ask you what was your
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: last I choose me moment?
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: M As you know, because you know this well, this
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: is a real busy season, like anytime you're putting a
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: book out. It is it is a it is a marathon,
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: and it is on the gas at all times, so
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: this is not a good time to take time off. However,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: my three best friends all live right here. One of
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: them lives right across the street.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Two of them live on the street over, so we
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: are point zero two miles from each other. And in
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: case that's too far, we have a golf cart so
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: that we don't have to walk that far. And two
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: of us have August birthdays, and so the other two
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: planned this whole surprise three day birthday weekend. They didn't
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: We did not know where we were going. We did
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: not know what we were doing. They just told us
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: what to pack, and this was not a great time
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: to do it. I had I have enough work now
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: to last twenty days a week. And I just told
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: everybody in my whole team, I'm like, these days are
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: blocked completely. And they're like, oh wow, oh we hate
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: that for us. Yeah, I'm like, I ain't going for you,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: but I know. And so I spent three days on
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: the lake with my girlfriends, acting insane and being idiots
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: and wearing matching pajamas they had made for us and
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: eating food and playing games and drinking wine and laying
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: by the pool, and it was just marvelous. That sounds
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: so nice, doesn't it.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: God, I'm happy for you.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: The book, you guys, is called Awake, a Memoir, and
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: it is out now. Be sure to get it because
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: you are gonna love it.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Thanks Jenny, thank you.