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Jennie Byrne: How to Say Yes to Opportunity · The Bold Lounge

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact on the world.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Every week we have someone who's part of it.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: In addition to hearing their stories, all stories about their bold story, that they get everything active.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Whether they face children or outside, and openly their fault.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: These impactful stories are motivated and inspired to pursue your own culture.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be created.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: This morning I have Jenny Byrne, who is not only an author, but she's a practicing physician and someone who is looking at company culture through a new lens.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Nice to have you on the podcast, Jenny.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey there.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: So nice to be here today.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: I thought we'd start off because I think you've had an interesting path to where you are today.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Just an introduction and kind of the milestones that you've clicked across to get to where you are today in the world that you're leading.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm happy to dive in.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've had such a meandering path.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think like high level, you know, the first thing I tell people is the path is not linear, and I'm sure the future will not be linear either for me.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm from York, Pennsylvania, which I know is close to where you grew up as well.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very small town.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a pretty poor town.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Most people are very provincial and you know, not a lot of people leave.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very eager to get out and see the world.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: I went to college in Philadelphia, but I was actually a music performance major when I got started.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I had no idea I was going to be a doctor or a research.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know these things were really like out there.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I love to play music, which I still do.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I started as a bassoon major, you know, because bassoon, why not?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the hardest instrument and nobody else plays it.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's a bold choice, Jenny.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I played the violin and uh K through 12, but the bassoon, I think that's a bold choice.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's fabulous.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was the first bold choice.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like you, I played the violin, and then I think someone told me I couldn't play the bassoon.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, well, I'll show you.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how I got started.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I went through school.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: I also lived in France for a year.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I really wanted to get out and see the world.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was a French major.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then I really didn't figure out kind of where the path was going to go until my junior year.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I took a class in brain and behavior, which at the time was kind of unusual back in the 90s to have like interdisciplinary kinds of classes.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I just totally fell in love.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the arc of my career since then has been centered around brain and behavior in some form or fashion.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: So thinking about a couple of these moments, you know, we talked about being bold, but I always like to ask guests, what's your definition of bold?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And what would that look like for you?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me, bold is saying yes to things and things that maybe other people are telling me not to say yes to, like the bassoon, for example.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And just kind of being willing to say yes to things when I don't really know what's going to happen next, but it has a gut feeling of being right or just inspired me or made me curious in some way.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great definition.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other thing that you mentioned was life isn't linear, right?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Your life has not been linear.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Most maybe no one's life is linear, but I think we try sometimes to make it that way.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of the piece and the journey of like learning yourself and like learning what you're going through is like leaning into it.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you started out in a different major altogether.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: You were focused on music, you were also a French major.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: You went to France and spent a year there.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: From the perspective of being able to go to a different country and live, that's bold.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And being able to experience it.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think you learned about yourself during that year abroad?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: I learned that there was a lot I didn't know.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of that moment when you hit adulthood and you're like, wow, I thought I knew everything and I don't know anything.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's like the the year you feel like, oh, my parents really were smart about something, right?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: You were earlier than me.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think 22 was when I realized how much my parents actually were right in some of the situations earlier on.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you had that kind of awakening of like you still have stuff to learn.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I and I had an awakening that other people fundamentally thought differently than I did.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, like learning how I all my classes were in French.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: I literally didn't speak English at all.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Learning how to think in French, it's not just a you know, translation isn't just an equal equation.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you actually start to think differently in a different language.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was really eye-opening for me that different people actually thought differently than me, not just because of where they grew up, but like the culture and the language actually caused their brain to work a little bit differently.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that was another really interesting learning for me.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and early on, right?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: So a layer of your understanding.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: I always say there's a strata of like your experience.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: If we look at a rock from the side, there's just certain things that you learn across the way.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to just ask that because I haven't traveled abroad, which I always feel very limited.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've been to Canada, and not that that doesn't count, but I'd love to do certain things.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in the past, what has kind of held me back is just the fear of traveling and not knowing someone who's there who can tell me the right way to go.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And here's me, Miss, I'm all about being bold.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's something I'm still working on, right?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I, you know, I'm really working towards it of being able to do that, and I've set a goal for myself to travel internationally in the in the next year and to maybe do like an immersion.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: I can't do a year, but maybe do a month.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm excited about that.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you've had that experience, and it actually sounds like incredible value add to your learning.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, what did you do after that?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, after my undergrad, when I came back, I fell in love with this brain and behavior.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I started doing research.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: I loved it, and I really love the thought process about it.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was going to go do a PhD, and somebody said, you know, I think you should do an MD PhD because I think you'd be a good translator between clinical and research.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so this was another bold moment.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really not sure, like honestly, what possessed me to say yes, other than maybe I was being competitive.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, sure, I'll do an MD PhD.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I just jumped into that and and you know, had to go take my MCATs.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: I had to take a year off actually after college to get ready for my MCAT.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I was delayed a little bit.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a very competitive process.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was going to take six years to get an MD PhD.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: It took me almost 10.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: I did a basic science PhD.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it was way more than I bargained for.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sorry I did it, but if I were rewinding life, I you know, I don't know if I would have made that choice, honestly.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: But now that I did it, I certainly am happy to take advantage of like the different ways of thinking that that brought me.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thinking about the way to extrapolate this out into other areas and different things people are doing.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: You had a plan, it changed, and it actually extended maybe even the time that you were going to hit some goals or do some certain things.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: How did you feel along the way?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Finishing your MD PhD, like how did that feel?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I had a big moment.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it was like a not bold period leading up to a big bold move, I guess, which was, you know, as my PhD progressed, the relationship with my advisor deteriorated.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: And this is not uncommon, unfortunately, for PhD students.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to be very open about this.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: He was really going in a different direction.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: He moved to Oregon.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was it was pretty traumatic for me because I really trusted him.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to kind of figure out what to do.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And there reached a moment, literally a meeting where I remember sitting with him and he said, You're everything you've done is terrible.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is five years in, right?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: At five years in, everything you've done is terrible.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna start over and you're gonna do what I want you to do, and you're gonna do this other thing.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, You're a hundred percent wrong.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've done good work, I'm done the PhD, I'm gonna go and get my degree and move on.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And literally, that was the conversation that we had, and I had to walk out of the room and like figure it out.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I talked to my committee, my thesis committee, and they basically overrode him and allowed me to get my PhD against his wishes.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was bold and that I was able to actually make it happen, but that impacted me like long term, especially with my ability to trust people senior to me.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I really felt like I had to do things on my own.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's unpack that for a moment because uh I have a connection to that in a different way.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: It absolutely was 100% bold in the sense of advocating for yourself because when you're working on your terminal degree and I'm working on my doctorate, when you're just at that phase and you this is like you can see the finish line, but oh my gosh, it could be like a hundred feet in front of you and it feels like a million feet.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: At least that's how I feel.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And someone tells you when you're getting that close that you have to start over, it's like, oh, I don't think so.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: But you're also very tied to what they've been doing and how they've been guiding you, and how they're a big part.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Your advisor is a big part of you being able to graduate, right?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: So my personal experience with that is my dad went to a very prominent academic, got all the way to defending, and his advisor didn't show up to the defense.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: I wish, I wish I could say this kind of thing didn't happen, but it's actually fairly common.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so absolutely bold, and then the fact that that committee had their own boldness to override him, like two checks, big checks there.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you learned, I think, some key things in there too, like authority, power, you know, again, layering in some of the understandings of trust and mistrust.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as a student, when you have an advisor, you do lend your trust to them, right?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Of they're gonna help me, they're gonna challenge me, but they're gonna help me.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: They want me to succeed.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Just to give you like credible kudos, that's pretty tough.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's like eating nails tough in the sense of being able to like get through that type of situation.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I would absolutely say it's bold.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you graduated and then you were ready to kind of take things to your own level with regard to you know brain and behavior.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, what did you do after that?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, after I got through that, I did get my PhD.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: It is sticking up there on my wall because I'm like blood, sweat, and tears went into that thing.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's there, and yours will yours will be on your wall too, I'm sure.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I started to feel a little stifled in in academic research, and you've worked in academia, you know it's it's a very special environment.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Many things I love about it, but I got a little stifled, I think because I'm actually very creative.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was more creative than I knew I was, I guess.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started to go more into clinical work.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I did a residency, which was four years.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: I chose psychiatry.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: My choices for brain and behavior were psychiatry versus neurology.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love neurologists, I love neurology, but I just felt like that would have been stifling all over again.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went to psychiatry, which is known for being pretty quirky.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I felt better.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: I felt better being able to talk a lot.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: I like to talk.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like, you know, with a patient, at least I have my words.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: If I have nothing else and I can help somebody with my words, like that's pretty powerful.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I did.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and as part of that, I decided to do my own psychotherapy.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is New York City, you know, tons of shrinks.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's very heavy on psychotherapy.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I was pretty skeptical about the whole thing.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was just doing it as part of my training.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I would I did therapy for four years with a very talented psychodynamic therapist on the couch.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: By the end, I was lying down on the couch two days a week, like the whole thing.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I just got so much out of that, and it really opened me up into my own kind of range of things with emotions and irrationalities, and it just made me a much more whole person.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't expect that at all.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was very skeptical about therapy when I did it.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And coming out of it, I just I can't thank her more for all of the things that she did for me.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you learned a lot about yourself, and one of the things you says is, you know, irrational, like you learned about irrationality.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: What's something that's good for us to all know that you learned through that process?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a whole science around this, and it's called behavioral science.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you can read about all the different types of psychological errors that humans make.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the most fascinating examples for me was there's this idea of parallel process.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens with one person reflects with other people, but it's like very subconscious.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a patient that I was treating as a psychiatrist in training who was very challenging and would really push on me.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt helpless to take care of him.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I reenacted that dynamic with my supervisor.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I would bring the case to her, but I wouldn't bring my notes.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would forget my notes, or I would forget details, or I would say, Oh, I can't do this, I can't do that.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was projecting my helplessness onto her, and she was astute enough to say, Hey, this is called parallel process.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're projecting your sense of helplessness with this patient onto me.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, he's probably projecting his sense of helplessness onto you.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of this effect of you know, helplessness was moving up and down the relationships.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think as an example, humans do this subconsciously, and it really matters in families, but also at work because if you have a hierarchical work environment, you know, what happens with your entry-level person sometimes reflects all the way up to the top, and vice versa.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: What happens in the C-suite sometimes reflects all the way to the bottom.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if the C-suite is feeling anxious, for example, about growth, that anxiety at some level will trickle all the way down, and vice versa.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's this really fascinating subconscious human process where we take our emotional states and subconsciously project them.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it really, if you're not thinking about it, you can inadvertently create a lot of problems in your relationships or even in your work.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I've seen this in companies play out in this weird subconscious way, and they're totally unaware of it.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've never had psychotherapy, but I have had some extremely deep coaching, right?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Where we hit spots that from my typical coaching, I would say we didn't hit.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I had very I've had coaches throughout my career and they've all been different.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there's a for me, I think there's a continuum of good to bad of what happens, but experience some who really their job was to kind of be the person that helps us all work together and kind of gets into the how do we work together better, but doesn't really like move you up a level or help you understand yourself.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: But the one that helped me the most was the one that helped me understand myself, why I did things, what were my atos, and some of the things you talked about.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: When it comes to going from the psychotherapy aspect to where you're working now, how can we understand kind of the world you're in now and to take some of those pieces and parts?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I know you have a book coming out, which probably we all can learn from that, and I want to talk about that a little bit, but you know, you get through this psychotherapy, you it sounds like you had a lot of self-learning in that.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely, definitely.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think you know, things have maybe come full circle for me in some ways, but all the things I've learned about the brain, right, through research and all of that, and then all the things I learned in psychotherapy about human psychology and why we behave the way we do, you know, now what I find is I'm a consultant.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I work with a variety of healthcare companies typically who are looking to innovate or pivot very strategic level.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, I do coaching with other leaders.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, some of it's very content specific, like here's how you think about mental health and how you treat it and so forth and so on.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: But what I think I'm bringing the most value to people is this deeper understanding of how human brain and behavior work and how that plays out in business and how that plays out.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that lens of how humans work, not to say it's good or bad or you know, it's just how we are, and taking that lens into the workplace and looking at what people are struggling with today at the leadership level or just at the entry level, I think if you look at it with that lens, things make a lot of sense.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you can say, oh, well, I'm just beating my head against the wall here trying to do this, because that's not really going to move the needle.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: If I just understand how people work, even though I might not be a people person, I might be someone who likes operations much more, or a tech person, or you know, maybe you don't love the human part of things, but just understanding that I think can really make work a much better environment, much more efficient, and much more effective.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And probably more joyful, right?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's always this piece of you that, wow, I wish I knew that when.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I also feel like if I didn't experience what I experienced, I wouldn't know what I know today.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the self-awareness piece and understanding projected helplessness, like, was someone doing that throughout my career, or am I doing I don't I want to make sure I'm not doing, I think that's the other thing is the more you learn.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was in nursing school at an undergrad, and the more I knew, the more I had.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember I was having my daughter and I was in OBGin rotation.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, everything, everything that happened, I was like, Oh, I gotta look that up.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta make sure it's not this or that.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: My mom would always say, you know, too much, like just put the book down.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's also that piece of it, the more you learn, like you have to also know how to apply it, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: That I love about what you do is the lens that you apply to culture and companies is the human lens.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the way that you do that though is through brain and behavior of the human.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we all hear a lot about empathy and kindness and psychological safety and all of these things that you know there's lots of information out there on for us to learn.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the lens that you provide, I think, for your clients and the companies that you work with really is different and unique.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So as you think about what you've learned, how did you get to the book piece?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: How did how did the book come about?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the book was again a serendipitous moment where I was thinking a lot about this topic and I was working with clients and I was looking for answers, like you said, that I was reading about empathy or things, but there was nothing really seemed to answer the question.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I started just doing my own research, right?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, I just started reading and researching and and then a colleague of mine who was actually my coach, who is also a chief member, she called me up and she said, Hey Jenny, I'm gonna write a book and I think you should write a book too.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about this before.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm taking this program to write a book in a short amount of time, and you should do it.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Maybe I should think about that.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought about it for like 30 seconds, and I was like, Yes, I'm gonna say yes to that.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this meets all the criteria to say yes.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've never written a book, I don't know anything about the process of writing a book.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm literally a novice.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love to read, but I'm a novice.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just said yes.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, we'll see what happens.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's a learning piece in there too.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think the bold piece, writing a book isn't easy.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one thing people may not understand is depending on the type of book you're writing, but I do think there's levels of like you're understanding yourself in there.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're going through like, why did it take so long?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or why did I why couldn't I write that?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Or oh, I learned that about myself when I wrote it down.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's different things that you learn.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: What did you learn the most about writing your book about yourself?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a great question.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: I have learned that I have been really holding back on sharing who I am with other people.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that even is people close to me.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: So part of the book is writing personal stories.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And every time I was going to write a personal story, I have this like hesitation like that's too personal, you know, that's too vulnerable.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's too personal.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: For example, I picked up the electric base during the pandemic and I've been playing in a rock band.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, before I would have been like, oh my God, I can't tell people that.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's not professional.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's not who they think of.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't say that.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so the book has really shown me that like storytelling, if you want to be an effective storytelling, especially when you're talking about yourself, like you have to find vulnerable moments that still feel safe to you.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's been like testing that boundary.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's the manuscript is done, the first draft.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot in there that I don't know.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: It I would never have written that like five or 10 years ago.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I would have thought that was too personal.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's letting the boundaries dissolve a little bit between who I am as a whole person and like what I bring to a professional setting.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've been letting that dissolve a little bit more and finding ways to do it that still feel safe.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it'll be pretty scary when the book comes out because there is a lot of personal storytelling in there.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I I know logically, rationally, that it's fine.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's vulnerable to be authentic.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel comfortable all the time.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that comes from, and I'm certainly not as schooled as you are, but wanting to feel accepted, wanting to feel like people like you, wanting to people to know the true you, and maybe they'll think differently of you.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is uncomfortable at times to be vulnerable and authentic.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And something I heard Jen Gottlib say in the last week was your mess is your message.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I loved that she said that because I was like, Oh, I've never thought of it like that.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I still like am figuring out how to open.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Open up and I was extremely private, you know, in the corporate world.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Similarities of what I people may think of me if I do this or that or look like this.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: I wear a hat.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: You see me like my pictures, I have a hat.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: I love the hat.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love the hat.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I never wore a hat before, let people see me in a hat before 2020.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, right.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I remember my husband saying it was right after I'd resigned, and I was like, Should I wear the hat?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Wear the hat.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was this like, I was like, that could be a chapter of the book.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, love that you're one sharing that, but also sharing it with others of this is my story and this is the true me.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then it comes back like from feeling uncomfortable to like feeling like empowered, and like there's that moment of uneasiness in between.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm assuming as as you go through it.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to write a book.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's this piece of it like wanting it to be perfect or wanting it to be exact, and it's okay if you start out, it doesn't mean that's your only book, too.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like you could write the next book in the next book.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I always tell people there's always a step one to anything, and it doesn't have to be the perfect step.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that's hard to apply to ourselves, and so um I love that about your story and your journey, and your book comes out.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: What is your book called?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the working title is Work Smart, Use Your Brain and Behavior to Master the Future of Work.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Long title.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's good because you know what the book's about.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the key things around that are really the new lens that you're bringing to company culture and how to do that.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you had to kind of sum up what are the learnings that why someone would want to pick up the book, what would be the reason?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think the people who will really love the book are people who are probably a little older, so you know, 40 or over.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Not that younger people might not get something from it, but people who are a little older, people who really are struggling with the shift to doing more virtual work in particular.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then people who really want to make some small changes now to make things better.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: My premise, which is that everybody thinks the future of work is about better technology, but I think it's about being a better human.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: It has some foundational sections around things like time management, communication, which I believe are kind of the fundamental pieces to build towards empathy and connectedness, which is what I think people are really missing.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: People talk about, you know, the tech problems or the communication or this or that, but I think it's really like the connectedness of human relationships is what we feel like we're missing right now.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of builds to that.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have a section at the end which is a little more future looking, like what does the future of work look like in the next five, 10 years?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: What can it look like?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of a little bit more of a vision of what it could be.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot wait.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll have all the details to that in the podcast information below for everyone that wants to pre-order, look at the book, be ready to take it all in, or connect with Jenny for the services that she does, you know, as we're closing out here.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: One of the conversations that I hear a lot is around the return to work or coming back to the office or figuring out the right setup.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any advice for us?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it can be a very uncomfortable situation for people who are asking people to return, and also uncomfortable for potentially our employees who have you know settled into a rhythm and a routine with their family and working towards having some I use alignment.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I never say balance, because I think that's very challenging.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: What advice would you give employers around return to work and setting what is the new way of work forward for their boys?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would say two things.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, I think a recognition of what the what I call the traditional office was and where it came from.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: It came from the industrial revolution.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the things we thought about work are assumptions and schemas that we have had for a long, long time.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: So my advice is when you think about where and how you want to work together, the question really isn't do we go back to the office or not?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's what do we want to accomplish and what is the best way to accomplish it with the people we have.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: That is gonna look totally different for different groups of people.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna look totally different for different types of work product.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think people are stuck in their own box of like office versus not office or you know, nine to five or not, like they're kind of very stuck in this schema that we've had for over a hundred years and they don't realize the assumptions they're making.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say, you know, really get out of that mode, think about what is the work and who are the people and what do we need to do to make that happen.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you're gonna find that the answer to when to go to work or not, or have an office or not, or blah blah blah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: That will come quite naturally when you really break it down into saying, like, what do we actually need to do and who do we have to do that work.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because then it leads to the how do we do the work?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: What, the who, and then it leads to the how, right?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe we need to be in person to have that kind of conversation or do that strategy session, or maybe we can do that virtually in those types of things.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's also the purpose, right?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: The purpose in the in the work.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Be a little careful about the research you see online.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen one study cited recently very often about brainstorming doesn't work virtually.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if you actually go to the research article and read that article, it's not a great indicator of reality in the office.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I would just be a little careful.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: People are citing research to make these very big corporate decisions.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're basing it on these little tidbits of media press that if you actually go to the research, it may not say what you think it says.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be my other word of caution.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: As you're making these big decisions, you know, really like look at what you're doing and and your assumptions and don't just base it on like little tidbits in the media.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, be thoughtful, be pragmatic.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a one-size-fits-all.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you're the expert.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just someone who worked in it.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's what I've experienced in my role.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I was very open to working from home years ago.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's especially in an academic, it's a really hard sell.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's some partners now that I think are more open to some of the things.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's been, I think, a positive out of a very negative situation for the world is just a new way and maybe a reset.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I appreciate everything that we talked about, information on your book and you and and just being able to continue learning from you.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: You've motivated me today to to do some things and to maybe think about things different.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: So very appreciative of your openness and your willingness to share your journey of being bold and where you are today from taking those steps.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you very much.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's been fun.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important stories.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with the bold.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.