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Chesapeake Bay Conservation: Building Stronger Partnerships with Hilary Harp Falk · Clean Water Conversations

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_04: Hello everyone and welcome to Clean Water Conversations, the podcast where we have casual discussions about creating clean and clear waterways right here in Lancaster County.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Ken.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Allison.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_04: Allison, it is Black Friday.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: Just about.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we're we're at that season already.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: You you blinked.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_04: I know I I blinked.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's why that's why it's already here.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_04: So traditionally, there's been, you know, you get up early, early, early and stand in line.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_04: Are you plan on doing that?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: You is there anything that you're excited to be shopping for this year?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're using the word you, and that is not me.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I am not at the door trying to get the the deal.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: I am looking forward to shopping this year for my kids.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: We've got this tradition with an advent calendar that has these little doors for every day, the holiday season.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's part of my mom duties to fill that and have lots of creative little things for them.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: So nice.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: How about you?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_04: I don't get up and stand in line anymore.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: I did.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_04: Anymore.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_04: Anymore.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I did.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_04: The first time I I bought a video camera, like a professional grade video camera, um, was at wherever whatever was there at Best Buy before in that same location, another electronic store.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I got up at probably four in the morning and stood in line and waited for the doors to open and ran back and got that because it was on sale.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh huh.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_04: And then went to work afterwards.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_04: I was kicking myself all day long.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: It was crazy, but it that camera served a lot of a lot of function over the years.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_04: You go.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: Part of your story.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_04: And speaking of stories, there continues to be a lot of awesomeness going on in my world.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's wonderful.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: What is awesome in your world right now?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome in my world is continuing to be that storyteller at some places like the Lancaster County Association of Township Supervisors.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So a shout-out to them.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for including us this time.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_04: And also in getting the news out there, we have our newsletters that are coming out.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they and they've been following uh a theme of our values every month.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_04: And we've been trying to show examples of those values.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: It has been so easy to find content from uh you all as partner organizations who are doing that.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: You are implementing practices, you are expanding capacity, but it's with these shared values in mind.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for what you're doing and thank you, Ken, for putting it in our newsletter.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, thank you.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_04: And and last week was the extra give.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_04: So congratulations to all those folks that participated in the extra give.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yay! I'm sure they all spent considerable amount of time afterwards napping.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_04: There's so much to that.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_04: And by the way, if you want to learn more about that, check out our previous episode.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_04: Now on to this episode, we've got a great guest.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm such a big fan.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_04: Hilary Harp Folk is the president and CEO of Chesapeake Bay Foundation, or CBF.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: You will hear it referred to as CBF.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that buzz anyone.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_04: And she has a lot that you can learn from.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_04: Exciting stuff.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_04: I'll tell it.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Going for camel rides instead of horses.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_04: Let's start with an icebreaker.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_04: Your icebreaker question is if you could eliminate one thing from your daily routine, what would it be and why?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna go with making school lunches.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a lot every day to have to make two school lunches for my 13-year-old and my 10-year-old.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: And while I really want them to eat healthy lunches, I would I would eliminate that or have or have somebody else help me figure this out.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_04: Hire a cater catering company to do it for you.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_04: About that.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I swear the rate that they're all eating, we're gonna need a whole company for all of our kids.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna need a lot of food.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um they're really good at they actually are quite good at making their own lunches, but I wouldn't say that they are particularly healthy when that happens.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_04: That would have been me.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_04: That totally would have been me.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Shoving in bags of Doritos.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah, of course.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, of course.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: Doritos.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: Cup of noodle, you know, it's a really efficient meal, but it's really healthy.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_04: There's a little bit of sodium in those, you know.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: Just a smidge.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: The joys of parenting and working and trying to do it all.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_04: So they did did you grow up in Maryland?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up in Baltimore City.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_04: Usually when we talk to people that are in the conservation world, they grew up in an area where there's more nature.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_04: What brought you to the conservation mindset?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh well, Baltimore does have a fair bit of nature.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's some wonderful efforts to increase nature around Baltimore.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: But it was actually my dad's work at the Baltimore Sun as a photographer and his relationship with a reporter named Tom Horton who started a partnership of getting out on the Chesapeake Bay.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: And my dad's father was an editor at the Herald Mail News in Hagerstown, Maryland.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so my dad spent his childhood outside fishing and camping, although um sort of away from the bay.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: But when he came to the Baltimore Sun, he was able to do stories as a photographer all over Baltimore and actually all over the world.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: But his favorite stories were about the Chesapeake Bay.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: And when Tom Horton started writing a book called The Island at a Time about Smith Island, the two of them spent a lot of time down on the islands.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: And it was an incredible childhood of walking around the Chesapeake Bay's edges and marshes, running aground on boats, fishing, crabbing, swimming, and I fell hard in love with the Chesapeake Bay and knew that I would spend my time on the bay.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: And now I'm incredibly lucky to get to work on the Chesapeake Bay every day.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's amazing.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_04: Now, was there any specific moment from your childhood that brought you from there where you just described to where you are now?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'd say when I was eight, I knew that this would be my passion.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think I knew exactly where it would all end up, but I I loved following him and especially when he was doing stories about people and the Chesapeake Bay, which is what a lot of his work was, and the experience of watermen, farmers.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: I just loved to see people in places.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: And that really got me wondering about the health of the bay and meeting people within the community.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I just thought it was such a great community to grow up in and now to work in.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Circling back around.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well, we'll come back.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_04: We'll come back.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: You are a graduate of Franklin and Marshall College.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_04: So there's your Lancaster connections there, which is very cool.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_04: What are some of your favorite Lancaster County memories?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_04: And what has changed in Lancaster County since your time living here?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: My favorite memories of Franklin and Marshall were a lot of throughout the county for biology and geology labs.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I would many of them I I remember being in a like a 14-person van driving those very curvy roads to do research, um, usually stuck behind a buggy at some point in the day.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh of course, because that's the that is part of the experience.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: And just getting to see how beautiful Lancaster is, and also to understand the the culture of the county and especially the relationship to agriculture and the connection to the plain tech Amish community.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so that that had a really big impact on me.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I I felt by the end of my time there, had a really good sense of place.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that helped me a lot and certainly continues to help me a lot in the work that I do.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: That all sounds very official and like proper college memories from the academic, I should say academic memories, because I remember you talking about spaghetti pizza.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there I think there's so many good Lancaster food memories as well.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I will tell that one of the things that I noticed that's changed the most is the local food movement hadn't happened yet when I was in college.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so much of that is centered in Lancaster County.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: And to go back now and see the incredible diversity of restaurants and connections between food and business in Lancaster County is is really heartening.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that is that's improved significantly.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: Although I do miss spaghetti pizza and some of the other haunts around um Lancaster.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: I also regularly correct people on their pronunciation of the song.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I feel badly, sort of.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I uh I make sure that everybody knows how to pronounce it correctly.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's part of the culture experience as well.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you've described some of the ways that you're connecting people, making partnerships, building networks.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, those can be pretty authentic.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering what does it look like in an example and what are some of the different scales that you've done that?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because everything from small individual one-on-one type things to entire national networks, you've got this really amazing background and experience.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: What are some examples that you can share with us?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I will say my love of partnerships and collaboration goes um pretty far back, but maybe the best example of that is when I was able to help build the Choose Clean Water Coalition.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: So back in 2008, there was a group of funders through the Chesapeake Bay Funders Network led by Verna Harrison at the Campbell Foundation, and they were really interested in looking at networks of organizations and how those organizations could come together around a common goal.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: And the foundation had seen success in other parts of the country, especially in the Great Lakes and the Healing Our Waters Coalition, and decided that they wanted to use that model but to bring all of the organizations, local, state, and regional and some national groups together to protect the Chesapeake Bay.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I was working at a small think tank in DC on research around congressional coalitions and water bodies across the country.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I heard about this and I thought it was such an incredible idea and applied to be the first director of what would become the Chiefs Clean Water Coalition and worked with about 10 organizations that saw the value of this idea.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I spent my time driving around just talking to people.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think one of the tenets of all of this is just personal relationships and trust.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know that everybody quite saw it right away, the ability of coming together.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and when I was out in the Great Lakes talking to folks about the Great Lakes Coalition, I would tell them who I was.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I was from the Chesapeake Bay community.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember one person saying, Oh my gosh, those folks are tough.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: They're never gonna work together.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I had I knew I had my work cut out for me, but I also knew some of the individuals who were working at the local level and some folks who are working at the state level, and these were really good people, and so we started with a couple focal points.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I think one of the other things is early on it was helpful for folks to see a path or a vision and some specific work.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: At the time, it was getting ready to support the Chesapeake Clean Water Blueprint or the total maximum daily load for the bay, lovingly acronymed TMDL.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well done.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Very good.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so we just started having these conversations and talking about the potential.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: And early on, I I don't know that everything went just the way it was supposed to go.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but what started to happening are convenings of groups, come people coming together who didn't have close relationships or some who did, but on different issues.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: We we spent a lot of time at doing dinners together and talking about what we could do together.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: And then we started to see some early success in increasing the federal appropriations for the EPA Chesapeake Bay um program.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: Environmental protection.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, oh, I was trying to get it in just before we did that.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_04: EPA stands for environmental protection.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_04: There we go.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_04: There we go.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry about that.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, I fair enough.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I think people saw how effective working together was, especially around a common goal, and that it was the relationships and the network that ended up sustaining the community and it brought so many wonderful things to all of us.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and so it was it was such a privilege to be part of the formation of the Choose Clean Water Coalition, and it's been really fun to see its success over the last 15 years.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's fantastic.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm hearing you say things like time driving to them, pathways with goals that people can see ahead of them, and those focal points, the whether it's topics or regions, those are some of the essentials of success.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Then it also is important, I think, to acknowledge that you're saying this doesn't happen overnight.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is a longer term game.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is a commitment that people make for the long term in mind.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Am I correct in those?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And what have I missed?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or what are there specific examples that um you call out now thinking back like the amount of time that's passed since then?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's the Choose Cleanly Water Coalition, for example, has grown so much and you really set the stage for that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: You made that possible.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering are there specific examples where those three or four things were the essentials and now have resulted in something that you're seeing that's on a completely different scale.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it actually your question reminds me of this early, early days, and I think we had put in some early grant proposals that we would be able to update the Chesapeake portion of the Clean Water Act, section 117.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think there was another goal around the Surface Transportation Act.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: So there were some very specific policy goals, and we failed at both of those things early on.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember going into that meeting, I was very nervous about this meeting, by the way.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I go in and I'm like, we didn't do the thing, the tactic that we said that we would do.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um and this this wonderful person on the other side of the table was like, let me just stop you right there.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't I'm not funding the coalition to pass a specific tactic.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm interested in building something bigger than its parts and the and what the coalition will do over the next decade and the relationships and how those will fuel success over time.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I look back on that terrifying meeting and see so much in that conversation about what was to come, which is that the coalition has has become a a place for debate about what the Chesapeake Bay community and especially organizations upstream, how we can work together places where we disagree.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a really, a really effective place to to talk about disagreement and to disagree thoughtfully.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it's been successful in in so many different ways of holding the community together around some big decisions and advocacy and threats to appropriations over different timescales, and and now is been really focused on the 2025 deadline for the current set of agreements and thinking about the future.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, like to keep building on that.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned something that to me sounds like accountability and setting the space to be in a potentially conflict-related conversation.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so are those some of the biggest challenges that you're seeing for large-scale conservation networks?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that could be at the region for the Chesapeake Bay or the national scale, or it could just be one small neighborhood.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm curious if those are two things that you're seeing and if there is something else to add to it.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And are those how do you navigate those challenges?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think when the work around clean water started in its current state, so when the Clean Water Act was developed in the 70s and through the last several decades, we were really hyper focused on clean water.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: And in the age of climate change, things look really different.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I think about your question, I also think about just the complexity of issues facing the world.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: And frankly, a community that, especially at the beginning, it wasn't very inclusive.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so we've seen over the last decade a lot of questions about what does this work look like in the 21st century given that we're in the age of climate change?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: How do we ensure that we are addressing environmental injustice and the communities that are facing the greatest impacts around air quality and water quality?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that has made our work more complex and really hard.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's made it harder.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's also made it a more complete story.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: When we think about all of these issues in one in these places, I think we are only telling part of a story, and we are now telling a much bigger story and more complete one.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: You use the word inclusive, and I think that helps us redefine success, both at the local level and and the regional level.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, thank you for that language.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: You put together several fairly substantial networks.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: Now, for someone who would be, this is kind of crazy, but for someone who would be trying to put together a network or even merge existing networks, what would your advice to them be?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I mean, I think you just start with listening to people about what they need and who they are, what their vision is for the future.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: And when you start asking people those somewhat simple questions, uh I think you can quickly build networks through those sets of those conversations one-on-one.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think people really want to be working together on some of these bigger issues.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, and making making these problems bigger means that we can have more people who are part of the solution.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that the challenges exist, but we're all built for problem solving.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think that's that's what I see every day at the Chesapeake Bay Foundation and across the community.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: We all want to be part of a solution and part of an exciting and positive vision for the future.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: And when you start to work with people and build those networks, that's what that's what it's about, is getting people together towards that more positive vision and and getting people just at the table ready to roll up their sleeves.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Those wins along the way, celebrations of the small ones, but also working towards the big one.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_04: Now you have held uh executive roles at the National Wildlife Federation and became the chief program officer.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_04: Uh now tell us a little bit about your professional work with a national audience, a national team strategies that impact a national initiative.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, after I I left um the Chusclean Water Coalition, I ran National Wildlife Federation Mid-Atlantic office.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: And then a few years later, I had the privilege to lead all seven of National Wildlife Federation's regional centers.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I was a water person from the East Coast.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: Learning about bison and butterflies and mountains.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: I got a whole education on western conservation, which Which is like oh just a completely different world, and I absolutely loved it.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: I thought it was so fun to learn about our national park system, you know, these big western landscapes, and also people in places that I had never been to.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was just really exciting to me.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: And one of my favorite projects I got to work on was at the time National Wildlife Federation was building the largest wildlife crossing across the a five-lane highway in Los Angeles to protect mountain lions.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so I got to work on the Save LA Cougars campaign, is very intentionally named that.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: I remember the gear, the t-shirts, all the wet shirts from that one.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: I just did I didn't know a lot about connectivity and and western landscapes.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: I spent a lot of time in California learning about mountain lions, and and that was just a wonderful time for me.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I I also think that those experiences and working at a national level and seeing how a place like the Chesapeake Bay and the people and and and challenges here were replicated in in various different ways across the country.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: So we were seeing how people in nature were in these interconnected challenges.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes it was water quality, sometimes it was water quantity, sometimes it was these landscapes that were being cut up by roads.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: But there was so much common challenge, and I love both the differences between all those different places across the country and and all of their similarities.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: Now, in the difference out there, I mean, did you have to evolve your leadership style?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_04: Well, what let me take a step back.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_04: What is your leadership style?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: I would say, in one word, it's collaborative.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: And people who know me could probably just tell me that that was um I love working with people and I love leading and partnering with with teams.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so for me, it was the first time I managed a team that I didn't get to see every day.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that was that was really hard because I I really get a lot of energy around being physically with other members of the team.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so I had to, I had to adapt because I was talking on the phone at the time to people across the country.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: And and then jumping in and out, you know, I'd fly to all the different regional centers, I'd only be on site for a day or two.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so building trust and relationships in that way is was just harder.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I did once we were moving more to Zoom and and other um formats, we got you know into a really good rhythm around understanding what people's experiences were, spending enough time physically with them and travel to get a sense of of what individual folks were were facing, whether that was work out out in the world or you know, team dynamics.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so I got really used to it, which was good because of course the pandemic put you know right after that.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so everybody was everybody was virtual.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I was I was pretty set up at the time because I was used to I was used to being on the phone or on Zoom talking to folks across the country.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: I realized so much about leading was was being clear, and that's harder to do at a distance too.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so finding ways to just be really honest with folks.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that you can also do that by being kind.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: Those years for me at National Wildlife Federation were just a a master class in in management and leadership.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, some what was taught, and and I had that incredible opportunity through the International Women's Forum as a fellow to learn management leadership uh classically, but so much of it was just watching other leaders that I saw were in my mind shared my values, were clear and kind and collaborative.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so I spent a lot of time just following modeling um until I had a better sense of how I wanted to lead.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then and was able to do that partly by making plenty of mistakes and learning from those mistakes and just trying to do better.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one of the ways that you've already started with that, and well, there's lots of ways that you've already started with that.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: One of them is the strategic planning process that you've led with Chesapeake Bay Foundation.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that a big part of that is being more people-centered, including more upstream areas like Lancaster.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the ways or what are some of the triggers that you brought to that process?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hearing you say leadership style.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what you described is perfectly fit for that, of just being kind and being inclusive.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I yeah, I'm curious to hear more of your comments and stories about that strategic plan as a as a tool and as a process for for CBF.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I would say I have had lots of good and bad strategic planning experiences, like most people.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like you say strategic plan, and you know, you get like a visceral response from people.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, some people will completely recoil, and others are like, confetti, I love this.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: But I have found with strategic planning processes that the the more that you can take a step back, get feedback from across the community, from your friends, from maybe some folks that aren't really all that enamored with your work, something that is co-created with with board and staff, then at the end of the process, you're getting, you know, there's there is a formal approval.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: But by that point, you've asked all the hard questions, you've gotten all the hard feedback, you've taken your time.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you're a little exhausted, and I will say at this point, we're all a little exhausted with strategic planning, but I feel like in the end of this, we're gonna get, and we are getting a really clear picture of where we need to go, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation's best role in that, and a plan to change.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: And and like in its essence, a strategic plan is a plan to change.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm incredibly proud of the work that the team has done, the hard questions we've asked, and I'm excited this winter and over the spring to roll that out and and talk to people about our work and and where we're headed.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_04: Now you had mentioned the 2025 deadline.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_04: Uh there over the years, there have been we'll call them some contentious views by some in the Chesapeake Bay area towards Lancaster County.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_04: And and and some justified, I think.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_04: We especially with uh the amount of of agriculture that we do here, it creates a lot of things that go downstream.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_04: Has have those views, in your opinion, changed in recent years?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think they have.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: And when I came back to the community after leaving for 20 years on national conservation work, I took a hard look at at where the Chesapeake Bay Foundation was and where the community was.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I just didn't feel like blaming and shaming Pennsylvania was getting us anywhere.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: And frankly, it meant that we were not talking about the pollution that Virginia and Maryland and some of the other Bay states were contributing.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: And Pennsylvania has a lot of work to do.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think there's no question.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: But my goal was to move from blame and shame to building capacity and accountability.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's where we need to support the great work that's being done in Pennsylvania.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think there are so many exemplary efforts going on, many of them with Lancaster Cleanwater Partners.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, I'll just go ahead and plug you guys right then.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I'll just over and over.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm also I'm so excited.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: And and when people ask me, I was at a talk, I was doing a talk in St.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: Michael's with the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum, and somebody stood up at the end and said, What's the Chesapeake Bay's biggest challenge and what gives you hope?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, Well, that's easy.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: Some of our biggest challenges, and also so much potential and hope.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: And if we can take and channel our energy to something that's much more positive, I think we'll just get a better result.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and I also love with the passage of the whole Watershed Act in Maryland, which is a piece of legislation that passed last year, a lot of the models that they were looking at are from Pennsylvania.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so to have Pennsylvania be leading and showing the way for Maryland, I think it's just a perfect example of what's possible when we focus our positive energy on this long-standing challenge.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_04: And it goes back to what you were saying about more people working on working on a big problem.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_04: My dad would have said um many hands make light work.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_04: Not that, not that any of it's really light work, but you know, certainly certainly makes it a lot lighter by comparison.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and I love what Lancashian Water Partners and partners around Lancaster, including my colleagues at the Fesbeak Bay Foundation, were really focused on homegrown solutions.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like it wasn't folks from Maryland or Virginia telling you what you need to do.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but frankly, community members in Lancaster looking at this challenge and wanting to improve their community.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's such a great model for every community where you can focus on challenges, but also the benefits to people and looking at the the heritage of Lancashire and how important the story of agriculture and water quality are to the community there.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: And then also, frankly, what that will do for those of us that live downstream.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think cheering on the communities that are that are really willing to roll up their sleeves and do the work and trying to find every way that we can support the capacity.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then also the accountability.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I see accountability as a much bigger frame.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, accountability is also making sure that we're being accountable ourselves and ensuring that we're putting everything we can in and our shoulder in and helping with funding and and support along the way.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's been amazing.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think that Pennsylvania has this thing about local control and local decision making, but it is because the local water improvements, those are what we'll see here.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we talk about clean and clear by 2040, that's for Lancaster's waters, but it will literally trickle downstream.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so that success story, it has this local focus, but it also is part of a bigger story of the entire Bay watershed.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, working as an entire Bay watershed community is a big piece of this, both for resources and support, but also accountability.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I I completely hear what you're saying.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And our I think what we've experienced with things like the countywide action plan or the CAP, like that's our local contribution to Pennsylvania's watershed implementation plan.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: So those are things where we need some Bay numbers or things that are driven by Bay related goals, but they still help us achieve the local, yeah, the local goals.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: The process is done locally.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: It needs all those voices.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: It needs the network that you described.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious with um the end of the year coming up, what do you want the Bay Watershed headlines to be in 2025?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm excited about the upcoming Executive Council meeting of the governors, the Environmental Protection Agency, administrator, the mayor of DC, and the head of the Chesapeake Bay Commission, all here in Annapolis, where I am, talking about the future together.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's really extraordinary, especially when you have, you know, Maryland governor as a Democrat and Virginia's governor as a Republican spending time together and talking about these issues when we think about the world as such a divisive place.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: The Chesapeake Bay has always been nonpartisan.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: And the idea that we could have all those people together, different parties, different backgrounds, all committed to the Bay and to what comes next.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so my headline would be Chesapeake Bay leaders come together to commit to bold plan for the future.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: Love it.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that is good.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it really is the now 41-year-old partnership that has sustained the movement over decades and challenges and a few lawsuits, some of them by the Chelsea Bay Foundation.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: People are still coming back to the table.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: And to me, that's that's what sustained us.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: And there is so much to be excited about.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so I hope even with all of the challenges that we have, that we're still celebrating success and thinking about this very exciting future where we have clean streams in Lancaster, and we've got oysters all throughout the Chesapeake Bay, and we've got living shorelines and vibrant communities in Baltimore and Norfolk.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I just think all of that together continues to fuel me and and our work to build this exciting vision for the future.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, you guys have a presence across the 64,000 square mile watershed.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: What's the piece that your Pennsylvania team within the Chesapeake Bay Foundation is kind of most excited about or leaning into?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they love working with you.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll start with that.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um likewise, the feeling is mutual.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's so great to see how the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Pennsylvania team, and partners have focused on the sub watersheds that really need the most attention and focusing on those places that are currently on the Environmental Protection Agency's dirty waters list and trying to one by one remove them.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think one of the biggest challenges that we face from a communication standpoint is getting the public to believe that what we're doing is possible.
• 37:12
  unknown: Right.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's a really big effort.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's one of the biggest restoration efforts in the world.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: And we've got a long way to go.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so to show in Lancaster County that we are putting points on the board as a community, that we're making progress, that we're removing moving streams from the dirty water slith to the clean water slit, I think it's a great model for how we move forward.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so I love that that's where the Pennsylvania team at the Chesapeake Bay Foundation has put so much of their time working directly with farmers, with communities, with partners to make progress on the ground.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I also love that the team has been so committed to advancing state policy, which is really hard to do in Pennsylvania.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: For those listening.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: And to work with so many great legislators at the state level and the governor to get the Clean Streams Fund and associated agricultural cost share program funded at$50 million.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: Those are things that I think are so critically important to our collective success and where we will continue to be spending our time and energy.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_04: And for all the people that uh made those things happen.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: There we go.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Those are huge.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: They make such a big difference.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you to the Pennsylvania team and the support from the entire organization for that.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_04: And now we have come to my favorite part of the show.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's trivia time.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, Hillary, uh, you went to FM, as I mentioned before, and you played squash at FM.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: I did.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_04: I'm learning I'm learning things from your friends.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: That's all I can tell you.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so your question is where did the game of squash originate?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm gonna go with England.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna give that to you.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_04: It squash has its origins in an older game called Rackets, and that game was played in London's prisons in the 19th century.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: I did not know any of those things.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_04: Neither did I until I looked them up after I found you played squash.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_04: How did the game of squash get its name?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I I actually don't know the answer to that question.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but in squash, you smack the ball really hard and it kind of smushes the ball.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm gonna say that's exactly why.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_04: You you are absolutely correct.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_04: Around 1830, boys at the Harrow School noticed that a punctured ball would squash on impact with the wall.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_04: That is exactly the correct answer to that.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_04: I am so impressed.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was really good at gapping, by the way.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_04: I would tend to agree.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_04: So your sons play baseball.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_04: Uh they do.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_04: In what Pennsylvania town is the Little League World Series played?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I know that.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_04: Think Bucknell.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_04: Cheater.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I will go ahead and say Williamsport.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_04: It is indeed Williamsport.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_04: This one is gonna be really hard to guess.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, how many innings were played in the longest major league baseball game until it was called?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_04: Meaning until they said, okay, we're done here.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_04: 23.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, you you know what?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna give that to you.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_04: You're so close.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's 26 and it lasted three days.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_04: It was between the Brooklyn Robbins and the Boston Braves in 1920.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_04: So you had mentioned about camping earlier in our conversation, and your family likes to camp and travel.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_04: So just a little bit of travel stuff here.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_04: Which US states has the most national parks?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_04: California?
• 41:25
  unknown: Woohoo!
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_04: You are absolutely correct.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_04: It is California.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't have to.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: And they do have some really really beautiful national parks in that state.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_04: In which city can you find the beginnings of the historic Route 66?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_04: Fairly large city.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I don't know.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_04: It's in Chicago.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_04: You have lived on two different islands.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_04: One of them was in the Chesapeake.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_04: According to historians, over 400 islands in the Chesapeake Bay have disappeared in the last three centuries because of what?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_04: Erosion.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: Sea level rise, subsidence.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_04: Rising sea levels.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_04: I got one more for you here.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_04: Tangier Island was discovered, I'm using air quotes, was discovered by Captain John Smith and is home to the Chesapeake National Historic Trail and the Star Spangled Banner Trail National Historic Trail.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, that's a lot.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_04: What name did John Smith give the island, now known as Tangier?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_04: You're you're gonna kick yourself.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_04: He named it Smith's Isle.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_04: Really?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, he did, but it was spelled with a Y.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_04: Uh-huh.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_04: So that's that's our trivia.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your authentic answers and sticking with us through lots of different kinds of topics here.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I can honestly say this is one of those podcasts where it's like, oh, I wish we had more time.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_04: I want to learn more.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm happy.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_03: I uh I'm sorry I'm not with you guys, and I'm you know always happy to to chat.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: And Ken, I can tell you more Allison stories than you could ever want.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: Really, I mean we we have so many good stories, and we even keep a list of of our worst camping because we've had a couple that have gone so wrong.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: But my memories now of those times are so fond, yeah, even though everything possibly that went could go wrong went wrong.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: I feel share with all of those very funny memories.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um grateful for friendship, professional connections, and just being able to spend time with with you, Hillary, both in person and here via podcast connections.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, thank you.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you've got more coming for your day, and we really appreciate your time this morning.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, thank you.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, take care to both of you, and talk to you soon.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_04: And we will be right back in just a couple of weeks.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_04: Till then, take care.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_04: Bye, everybody.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_04: Cleanwater conversations is brought to you by Lancaster Clean Water Partners.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_04: If you have comments or suggestions on the show topics, please contact us at infolancaster cleanwaterpartners.com.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for listening.