Latest / Wake Up with Marci / Porn Addiction, Shame & How to Break the Cycle | Jeremy Lipkowitz

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Porn Addiction, Shame & How to Break the Cycle | Jeremy Lipkowitz · Wake Up with Marci

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I was walking down the street and I remember seeing
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: these college girls walking in front of me. And I
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: was so consumed by this feeling of lust and desire
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: to want to look at them and objectify them and
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: think about them in a sexual way. And it was
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: in that moment that a few really important insights came
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: to me. The first was just realizing that that state
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: of lust and craving and sexual craving was a state
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: of suffering in and of itself. That that state of
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: looking at what you don't have and desiring what you
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: don't have, it's not a state of gratitude and appreciation
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: for all the good things you have in your life.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: It's a state of lack and emptiness. So that was
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: really important. But more importantly, what happened is in that moment,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: I saw my future and I saw where I was
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: headed if I didn't make a change. And I realized
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: that if I kept watching porn and kept toxifying my
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: brain in that way, that I would end up being
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: one of these 65-year-old guys hitting on girls at college bars.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: This is Wake Up With Marci, a space for honest
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: conversations about healing, recovery, and women's wellness.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: I'm Marci Hopkins. Take a breath. You're safe here. Let's begin.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: There's an addiction millions of people struggle with, but almost
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: nobody wants to admit it.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Pornography.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: And because it's private, because it's accessible, and because someone
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: can appear completely successful on the outside, it can remain
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: hidden for years. But today's conversation isn't really just about porn.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: It's about what's underneath. Hello, all, and welcome to Wake
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Up With Marci. If you are new here, I am
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: so grateful you are here.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: Welcome, welcome.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Marci Hopkins, and I myself am in
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: long-term recovery. I'm about to Celebrate 11 years sobriety on
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: October 4th. So I'm super excited. And I created the
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: show because I believe honest conversations can change lives. Here
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: we talk about recovery, mental health, women's health, self-discovery, and
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: what it really takes to create a life you don't
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: need to escape from. And that last part is especially
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: relevant today because escape doesn't always look like alcohol or drugs.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's food, shopping, work. our phones, sex, pornography, or
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: anything else we begin to use that helps us to
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: avoid how we feel. Today, we're going to talk about
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: one of those behaviors that still carries an enormous amount
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: of shame, and we're going to approach it without judgment.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: If this conversation hits home, please like, comment, and share
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: this episode. Today, we're going to meet Jeremy Lipkowitz. He
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: is a former Buddhist monk, meditation teacher, IFC certified executive coach,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: founder of Unhooked Academy and the host of the Unhooked podcast.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: But his path into this work began with his own struggles.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: He himself discovered that he had an addiction to pornography
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: and he realized that he needed to make a change.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: And that led him into the journey of mindfulness and meditation. Today,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: with more than 15 years of meditation experience, Jeremy combines mindfulness, self-compassion, community,
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: and science-based recovery strategies to help high-achieving men and women
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: break free from compulsive behaviors and build lives with greater integrity, connection,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: and fulfillment. Now, let's meet Jeremy.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Hello, Jeremy. Welcome to Wake Up With Marci.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to be here.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: I'm really.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: grateful for this conversation because I talk about addiction and
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: disease and disorders that we have. And I talk mostly
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: about alcohol use disorder because that's what my addiction was.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: But I do speak a lot about other addictions that
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: are out there. And you yourself say that you struggled
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: with pornography. And I know this is something that many,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: many are faced with, and especially younger boys.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: So you yourself were.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: In college and you recognized that pornography had become something
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: that you were consuming on a regular basis. So what
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: happened in your life for you to finally think, this
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: may be a problem.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: I may be addicted to this.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, thanks for, for setting it up. And it's definitely,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: it's a huge problem that does affect so many, not
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: just young boys. It affects men as well. And it
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: also affects women, you know, it affects, you know, both
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: genders and almost anybody can get addicted these days and
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: it's growing. And in my own story, it started quite young.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I started in, not with hardcore pornography, not even with porn.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: I remember the first things that I looked at in
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: that way were things like the Victoria's Secret catalog that
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: would come in the mailbox or the lingerie section of
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: the Macy's catalog. And I remember just at a very
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: young age when I saw those images, it made my
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: body feel good in a certain way that I didn't understand.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: And so that's where it started and it slowly grew
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: and we got access to the internet. By the time
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: I got to college, we had high speed internet And
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: that's when I started getting into hardcore pornography. And it
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: had been a daily part of my life since my
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: early teens. But it was in college when it started
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: becoming this daily, you know, one hour every night. I
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: would go into my room, lock my door and start
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: to browse on porn websites. There were a few things
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: that started to happen in my life where I started
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: to realize that porn was impacting my life in a
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: negative way. I knew I didn't feel great about it,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: but I never saw the consequences. I never realized there
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: were consequences until I started to make some of these connections.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: And so one of the big connections I started to
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: see was just the way that my mind was constantly
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: being hijacked by this feeling of craving and lusting and desire.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: And it was like I was a slave to this
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: mental thing that happened in my mind. It was just
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: it consumed me and it took over my brain and
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: hijacked my brain. And I remember many times in college,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: I would want to go to a cafe to study,
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: pull out my textbook, but I would get started to
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: get consumed by these feelings of wanting to log on
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: to a porn website, wanting to lust after someone I
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: saw in person. And so those were some of the
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: things that happened early on. I also started to notice
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: the ways that porn was making me have these unrealistic
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: expectations of women's bodies. Because every time I logged onto
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: a porn website, I was searching for perfection. I was
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: looking at what I thought was perfect. And you get
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: to see what you think is perfect. You don't see
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: real bodies. You're seeing a highly manicured 10 out of 10,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to find. And so I started to
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: realize the ways that I was having these unrealistic expectations
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: of my partners in real life and that it was
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: leaving me unsatisfied. And the final tipping point came This
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: one day where I was at the time, I just
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: finished my undergrad at UC Davis. I was studying genetics
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: and I finished my degree and stuck around in this
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: university town for another year doing research. So I was
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: in my early twenties, maybe 23, 24. And I remember
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: walking down the street and just for some context at
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: this time in my life, I had it all going
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: for me externally in the sense that I looked very
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: successful on the outside. I had good grades. I had
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of friends. I'd been captain of a sports team.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: My life was really good in a lot of ways.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: But internally, I was struggling with addiction to porn and
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: using alcohol in an unhealthy way. And I remember very
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: distinctly this day because it was the day that everything
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: changed for me. I was walking down the street and
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: I remember seeing these college girls walking in front of me.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: And I was so consumed by this feeling of lust
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: and desire to want to look at them and objectify
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: them and think about them in a sexual way. And
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: it was in that moment that a few really important
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: insights came to me. The first was just realizing that
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: that state of lust and craving and sexual craving was
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: a state of suffering in and of itself. That that
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: state of looking at what you don't have and desiring
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: what you don't have, it's not a state of, of
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: gratitude and appreciation for all the good things you have
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: in your life. It's a state of, of lack and emptiness.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: So that was really important. But more importantly, what happened
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: is in that moment, I saw my future and I
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: saw where I was headed if I didn't make a change.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: And I realized that if I kept watching porn and
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: kept toxifying my brain in that way, that I would
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: end up being one of these 65 year old guys
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: hitting on girls at college bars. I really saw that future.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: I realized that, hey, I'm just going to keep going
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: down this path of wanting to objectify and lust and
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: crave and never be satisfied with what I have and
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: always want something fresh and new. And that scared the
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: crap out of me. It made me realize that, hey,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I need to make a change because this is not
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: the direction I want my life to go in. I
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: don't want to be this empty shell of a man
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: living an empty life. So that was one of the
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: big turning points for me where I started to realize
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: this lust that's taking over my brain isn't harmless. And
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: me engaging with porn on this regular basis and living
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: in this really lustful, craving dependent kind of way, it's
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: not a harmless entertainment that's going on. My mind is
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: really hooked by this and enslaved by this force.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, listen, you are sharing exactly what addiction is.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: And I can relate in so many ways with my
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: own addiction. And you also said that you were using
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: alcohol during this time and in a way that was
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: not normal. Would you say that alcohol and the pornography
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: were going hand in hand, would you want to drink
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: to partake in that behavior, if you will?
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll just kind of correct one thing. You said
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: that it wasn't normal, but this is the really sad
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: part of the story of alcohol is it's very normal
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: in the sense that a lot of people abuse it
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: in an unhealthy and unskillful way. And so growing up,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: You know, in this college town, university town, it was
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: very normal to be addicted to alcohol and abuse it.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: And it was something that I didn't question because all
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: of my peers were constantly drinking, getting blackout drunk every weekend.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: And it just seemed normal. It wasn't healthy at all.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: It was very unhealthy and unskillful. And they were definitely intertwined.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: When I realized that I was addicted to porn... It
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: was realizing that I wasn't just addicted to porn. I
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: was addicted to any kind of escape, any kind of
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: pleasure or numbing out. And so it was porn. It
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: was alcohol. It was also things like success and external
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: validation that I was addicted to, like needing these things
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: in my life. And yet, no matter how many of
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: these things I partook in, whether it was porn, alcohol, drugs, sex,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: validation and success, none of it satisfied me. None of
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: it left me feeling deeply fulfilled. And that was the
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: problem I started to see is that I kept using
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: all these things, thinking that if I just had more
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: of them, then I could be happy. And it's the
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: lie that we tell ourselves in addiction is thinking, oh,
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: this will be the solution. This time, this alcohol is
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: going to make me feel okay. And then it'll solve
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: all my problems. And it doesn't. The same with porn,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: no matter how much porn I watched, no matter how
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: much sex I had, it was never the solution to
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: the problem that I actually had.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Well, no, we have addiction because of trauma. I mean, there's,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: we're usually trying to fill a void in some way
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: or mask something that has happened. And just so you know,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: when I say normal, it may have been normal because
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: people around you were blackout drunk, but for the masses,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: like drinking like that is not normal. And so that's
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying. Like it is, we are drinking in
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: excess and that is not normal.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: I mean that, right?
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: So that is what I am saying. How I drank
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: was not normal for most. I may have surrounded myself
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: with people that drink that way to make me feel
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: more comfortable in my actions. Um, and I also, I
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: had things going on when I was younger because I
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: had certain things happen that I used myself. I objectified
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: myself to have power over men, but I would need
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: to drink to, you know, have those behaviors, right.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: To, to feel comfortable in them.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: So I guess that's, I could, I could relate with that,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: which is why I was wondering if you needed the
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: alcohol in the time you were watching the porn, if
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: that kind.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: Of went hand in hand.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not always. They did in the sense that if
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: I did go out drinking and came home drunk, almost
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: inevitably it would lead to logging onto a porn website
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and looking at porn while I was drunk or the
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: next morning being hung over and wanting to escape the
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: feeling of the hangover and watching porn. Um, but they weren't,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: they weren't linked in the sense where I needed to, um,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: to drink alcohol, you know, you know, cause that the
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: porn was a daily, if not multiple times a day
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: at some, at some points. And I wasn't drinking every day. Um,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: so it was something that where they could play into
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: each other and kind of, spiral in, but they could
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: also just be on their own. Right.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: So for you, how are you treating women? Does it,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: does it change it? I mean, it sounds like from
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: what you're saying, it does change how you see women
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: and how you treat women or treated them.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's something that's in some ways painful to
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: look at my past and to be honest with about
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: in the ways that, you know, that I did objectify
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: women and they treated them more like objects than like people.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: And I, you know, I wish I could say, like,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: I grew up in the Bay area, very liberal family,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: you know, very kind of feminist, uh, strong. My mom
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: was a, you know, very powerful, successful woman. And, and
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: so I'd like to think that I was a good
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: ally to women. But the truth is, is that I
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: treated women like objects, you know, I saw them as
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: a means to an end to get my satisfaction. And
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: there was a lot of cognitive dissonance, you know, thinking
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: that I was a good person. But at the same time,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: watching things that were out of integrity and in treating women,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: you know, I never did anything like really horrible, you know,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: like sexual assault type things, you know, but even just
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: the way that I would objectify people and, um, you know,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: treat them more superficially. Uh, it's, it definitely, but in
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: porn was a huge influence on it. Cause that's, that's
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: what porn does is it trains your brain to treat
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: women like objects and, You know, they actually did this
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: fascinating study. I've been trying to find it, but they
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: found out that when men are watching porn, there's different
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: regions of your brain. And, you know, so there's regions
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: of your brain that light up when you're talking to
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: somebody and empathizing with their emotions and your mirror neurons
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: are lighting up because you're talking to a person and
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: actually like empathizing and feeling that there's another person in
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: front of you. And there are other regions of the
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: brain that light up when you were interacting with objects,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: like picking up a stapler, grabbing a broom. And what
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: they found is that when men are watching porn, the
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: regions of their brain that are lighting up are the
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: regions associated with viewing objects, not the regions of their
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: brain associated with viewing people. And so on a very
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: neurological level and just a purely physiological level, porn hardwires
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: us to objectify people, to treat them like objects.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I could see that. I could see that.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: And I know different parts of the brain probably light
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: up for men versus women. And I'd wonder, well, porn nowadays, like, right.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: We used to have to pay for it, but now
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: it is so widely available.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: And I know that younger people are watching it earlier
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: and earlier, um, in, in age. And, and I wonder
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: if that affects somebody, um, in a negative way, just
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: because they're starting to, to be, it's available and you're
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: starting to see something like this at a younger age
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: when you're not even like really understanding it. So we're
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: watching porn, right. And it can be a good thing.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: And like you're saying, it can lead to the addiction. Um, so,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: so what's the line like is how can someone recognize
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: if maybe they are using pornography too much.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's a fascinating question. And a lot of
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: people ask, there's a lot of questions in there. One,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: some people ask, you know, is any amount of porn okay? And,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: and that's a good starting point because if you're saying,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: where's the line, then there's an implicit assumption in there that,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: that some amount of porn is okay. Yeah. And, I'm
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: a little bit agnostic on this in the sense that
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: I don't have anything against porn in principle. You know,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm not coming from the perspective that porn is,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: is like that there's something inherently wrong with watching other
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: people have sex. But when you look at what the
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: porn industry is today, the kind of stereotypes and tropes
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: that it, that it showcases the way that it exploits
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: people and abuses people and takes advantage of people. Um,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: And just how much of an unrealistic fantasy it is
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: and how much it skews healthy intimacy. It's not a
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: depiction of healthy intimacy. And so people who are watching
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: this don't realize how much they're being tainted by this
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: material that is created to be as addictive as possible.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: It's not created to teach you good lessons about how
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: to treat someone or what intimacy is or how to...
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: listen or how to communicate and have conversations about consent
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: or any of these things. It's just a fantasy that's
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: trying to get you addicted because there's a lot of
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: money behind these companies wanting to keep your eyeballs glued
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: on it. And people don't realize that the porn industry
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: is a bigger industry than all the sports leagues in
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: the U S combined.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Which is an astonishing fact when you think about how
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: big all the sports leagues are and you don't realize
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: that there's this hidden thing in our society that nobody
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: talks about because it's a taboo topic and it affects
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: so many men in our society and women. And it's,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: it's a massive industry and it exploits people. And it's,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: It's highly accessible. The other thing you mentioned is how
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: accessible it is. So there's something we call the three
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: A's of porn addiction. And it's these three qualities that
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: the more that any substance or behavior has of these qualities,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: the more addictive it's going to be. So the qualities
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: are the affordability, the accessibility, and the anonymity. So the
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: more of those three that you have, the more addictive
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: a behavior or substance is going to be. With porn,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: the affordability, it's free. There's no cost to it. If
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: there's a drug that costs you $ 5, 000 every time you
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: want to take a hit, you're not going to get
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: addicted to it unless you're a billionaire, right? Because it's
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: just too costly. So with porn, it's free. The accessibility
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: is how hard is it to get access to. Every
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: person has their phone in their pocket. I give the analogy.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: It's like imagine if you're a cocaine addict in recovery,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: but you have to keep a bag of cocaine with
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: you in your pocket wherever you go.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: Crazy.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: So it's wherever you are. And then the anonymity is
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: that it's very easy to do it in secret and
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: nobody knows. With other substances, even with alcohol, it can
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: be very hard to hide it. People smell it on you.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: It's hard.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: But with porn, it is so easy to hide and
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: most people do. And so it's easy to get sucked
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: into these shame spirals and isolate. And because of these things,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: And because it's a huge industry with billions of dollars
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: behind it, and because there's an infinite variety, this is
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: the other thing I like to explain is that if
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: you're addicted to junk food, let's say you're addicted to sugar,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: and you have a mountain of Snickers next to you,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: at some point, you get physically ill and you can't
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: eat more food. And so you can't keep going. With porn,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: there's no physical limit to it, which is why you
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: can sit there for eight hours or 10 hours just
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: finding a new video. Because every time you find a
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: new video, you're hitting on that little dopamine button. And
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: so there's no limit to it. There's an infinite variety.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: It's infinitely free. It's infinitely accessible. And you can be
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: anonymous as long as you have a room to yourself.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: And so because of these things, it's such a highly
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: addictive substance. And It's why so many of the guys
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: I work with, they say they've quit substances before they've
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: quit alcohol. Porn is the hardest one for them to quit.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Also because for so many of them, it starts when
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: they're eight, nine, 10 years old, you know, as it
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: did for me, I was eight, nine years old when
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I started looking at Victoria's secret and using it as
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: a way to self-medicate. Yeah.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: So let's, let's talk about that a little bit. There's
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: a few things I want to touch on. Um, First
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: of all, the shame cycle. And that's something I talk
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: about a lot because it's prominent in any, it.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: Works with any addiction, right?
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: So you have the shame and the isolation, and then
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: you use the substance, you feel bad about it. And
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: then you go into isolation and then, you know, use
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: it again.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: And it just keeps continuing, right? And we just continue.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Downward spiral.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we stay so sick in that isolation, right?
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: And we wanna stay in isolation so we can do
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: whatever it is that we're doing, the addiction, how we
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: want to do it, right? But then we feel awful
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: about ourselves, but yet we don't pull ourselves out of it.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: So how do you feel or how are you teaching
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: that shame is feeding our addictions?
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so passionate about this topic In part because
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: there's a nuance to the shame conversation that I think
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: doesn't get a lot of airtime, which is that there
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: is such a thing as healthy shame. And I'm a
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: big proponent about talking about what healthy shame is. But
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: in order to talk about that, it's helpful to understand
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: the difference between what we might call toxic shame and
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: what we might call healthy shame. So toxic shame is
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: the kind of shame you were just talking about, the
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: kind that exacerbates addiction. And a really, you know, just
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: a helpful way of framing it, what shame is, because
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of people don't stop to really think about it,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: but there's, it's this feeling that there's something inherently wrong
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: with me. There's something flawed about who I am. And
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: that if people knew the truth about me, they wouldn't
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: love me or they would kick me out or they would.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: shun me or call the police that they would think
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: I'm a monster if they knew the truth about me.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: And it's something inherently flawed with who I am. That's
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: what toxic shame. Yeah.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: And that's, that's the lie that toxic shame whispers into
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: our ear when we're feeling that toxic shame. It says,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: you're so broken and you're so flawed. And if people
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: knew what you were really up to, if people knew
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: what you were really like, they wouldn't love you. So
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: you need to keep it hidden because if they find out,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: you won't get the love. And because of that feeling
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: that if people knew they wouldn't love me, it leads
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: to people wanting to either hide and isolate or to
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: lie and live a double life and pretend, hey, everything's fine.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: I I've got it all together. I don't have any problems.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: There's no issue here. And there's this secret sexual basement
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: that some people talk about, or just that the hidden
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: double life, the imposter that's there beneath the surface. And
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: so that kind of shame, it really keeps people stuck
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: in addiction because they can't get the help that they
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: need because they're not even willing to admit that they're struggling.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: They're not even willing to admit that they need help
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: because there's so much shame.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: And also that shame itself is just such a painful feeling.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, feeling that toxic shame is so incredibly painful.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: And so this is what you talked about is when
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: you're feeling that shame, you're searching for this escape because
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: you don't want to feel it. And so you reach
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: for the only thing you know numbs the pain, which
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: is your addiction, whether it's alcohol or porn or gambling
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: or shopping, which then makes you feel worse about yourself
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: because it reinforces that belief that there's something wrong with you.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: And then you feel shame again. So that's where that
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: spiral comes in. So overcoming toxic shame is super important
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: in addiction recovery. I mean, and this is why getting,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: you know, involved in a community, letting yourself be seen,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: be vulnerable, knowing that you're not alone is so important. Like, oh,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: there's other people who struggle with this. I'm not the
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: only one. So there's a lot we can talk about
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: like overcoming shame, but I just want to give a
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: little plug for healthy shame for a second.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: It's really important. And sometimes shame gets thrown out completely.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, we got to get rid of shame.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: But it's like shame in Buddhist philosophy, shame is considered
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: one of the two guardians of the world. In the
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: sense that when you've done something unskillful, when you've caused
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: harm to yourself or someone else, and you remember the
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: harm that you've caused, and you feel that painful experience of, oh,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: like that kind of sinking feeling of, man, I did
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: something that wasn't right. I caused harm to myself. I
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: caused harm to someone else. That painful experience itself is
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: a protector in the sense that it stops you from
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: doing it again. If you didn't feel any shame about it,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: if you didn't have any of that painful remorse feeling,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: there wouldn't be anything stopping you from doing it again
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: because you wouldn't have that reminder of, This actually caused harm.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: So I just like to highlight that because it's so
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: important to recognize that that pain, the remorse can be
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: a benefit and it should be like, you don't want
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: to just say, ah, okay, I didn't do anything wrong.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: There was nothing wrong with that. You want to feel
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: that pain to move yourself in the right direction.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Our minds can sometimes, yeah. Our minds sometimes can play
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: that trick on us when we're, uh, addicts of some sort, right?
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: That it wasn't so bad or I didn't really do
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: anything that wrong or we compare our stories and we
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: try to convince ourselves. But you remind me from what
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: you're sharing right now, you remind me of a tool
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: that I used often and that was to pop it
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: in the tape and.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Play it out.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: So you play out what if I acted on the
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: behavior and what would happen realistically. Yeah.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: So, so here's the funny thing I mentioned earlier that
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: in Buddhist philosophy, the, moral shame was one of the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: two guardians of the world, right? So the question is,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: what's the other guardian? The other guardian is exactly what
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: you're talking about. So the first guardian they call moral shame,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: which is when you did something wrong in the past
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: and you reflect on that. The other guardian is moral dread.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: which is you think if I do this thing that
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: I'm contemplating, what will, what will happen and what would
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: wise people say about this thing that I'm about to do?
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: And you just, just as you say, you play it
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: out and you say, Ooh, I'm about to steal this
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: thing from somebody like, and if you have some moral
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: ethical dread about that experience, if you play it out
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: and you're like, yeah, that's, that's not, not so good.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: That's the other guardian of the world. So you totally
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: nailed it. I mean, those are the two it's, it's
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: the moral shame of, Hey, I did this thing that
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: was bad and unskillful. And then it's also, it's like, yeah,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: if I, this thing that I'm about to do that,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I'm thinking of taking the cookie from my
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: coworker without asking, is that right? Nah, it's not right.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: And I don't want to be shunned for that. I
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: don't want to be called out for that unskillful behavior.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Hmm. One of the things that you have shared and
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: you keep touching on is basically filling that void, masking, numbing.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: What for you.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Were you numbing? Was there something that you were numbing?
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: For me, openly, I talk about it. It was abandonment
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: from my parents, alcoholism in my family, sexual abuse.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: That's what I was numbing.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. For me, there was no capital T trauma in
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: my life. There was no big event that I can
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: point to and say, well, this was the, you know,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: the trauma that caused me to become an addict and
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: get into addiction. There were a lot of lowercase T traumas,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the ways where my needs
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: weren't met, where I got bullied at school, where I
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: got teased for being chubby and where I didn't get
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: the attention from my parents or the love from my
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: parents that I wanted or needed. You know, all of
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: these little ways where I felt insecure and unlovable and unworthy.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: And it's, you know.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: I feel it's the same.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know there's big T's and little.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: T's, but I feel, yeah, the feeling is the same. Yes.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: The reason I like to highlight that is because a
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: lot of people feel like it has to be some
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: capital T trauma.
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: You're right. You're right.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: And they don't give themselves credit for all the lowercase
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: T traumas that they went through as a kid. So
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: it doesn't, you don't even have to, like, I feel
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: like you don't even have to necessarily know exactly what
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: it was in order to start doing the healing work.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: You just have to know that you did go through
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: difficult things and you were trying to fill a void
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: because you felt unlovable. And that's enough to already start
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: filling that void with self-love and with connection and community
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: and you know, gratitude and all the things that genuinely
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: fill the void.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, those are all so beautiful. Cause that's the same.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: That's how I healed. So you were, you went through these.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Very difficult times and you had that extraordinary moment where
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: you recognize like, this is not right.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Like, and, and for me, I had a rock bottom
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: moment and I, And it wasn't my only rock bottom,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: but this one, when I was 2015, something shifted for me. Right.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: And I was then, I was like, I'm done. I mean,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: it is time. I can't live this way anymore. Right.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: I can't, I can't continue to keep this mask on
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: and performing. So I had to make a huge change.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: And so that happened for you and you started this
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: whole different Western way of life and you ended up
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: training as a Buddhist and you got your PhD, like
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: what were you searching for and how has this changed
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: your life?
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: So that story that I told you about when I
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: was walking down the street and saw these two girls
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: and had this realization that, hey, if I keep living
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: this way, I'm going to be miserable. I'm going to
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: be alone, no friends, empty, just chasing after pleasure. In
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: that same moment, the flip side of the same coin
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: was me realizing what I really, truly want in life.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: was a life of deep inner peace, a life of,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: of inner contentment and fulfillment and real happiness, not the
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: kind of exuberant kind of smiley, uh, you know, uh,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: ecstatic bliss happiness that you get when you take a
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: lot of drugs and go to a party. I wanted
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: the inner peace, happiness of, ah, I'm living a good
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: life and I'm at peace and I'm content. And I'm
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: filled with gratitude for all the good things I have
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: in my life. So that was the realization I had.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't know how to get there. But fortunately, because
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: I was quite a nerd at the time, I was
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: very into my studies and science and I loved reading
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: and all these things. When I had that existential crisis
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: of realizing that my life was on the wrong trajectory
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and I couldn't keep living that way, I went through
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: this existential crisis because I thought, well, I have everything
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: I want. I have all the sex. I have all
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: the lovers. I have the accolades, the validation, but I'm
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: not happy. So will I ever be happy? If I
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: have all the things I want now and I'm not happy,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: will I ever be happy? So I went to the
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: bookstore and fortunately found some books on positive psychology. And
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: then through my exploration of positive psychology, I started finding
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: books on neuroplasticity and ended up finding this book on
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Buddhist philosophy. And again, my background is very much in
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: the sciences. I've always been a big proponent of science,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: a lover of kind of rational thought. I was never
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: into religion or spirituality. But this book that I read
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: was written by someone who had a background in molecular biology.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: He had a PhD from the Pasteur Institute, this French guy.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: But he ended up traveling to Asia and becoming a
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Tibetan monk and spent the next 40, 50 years being
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: a Tibetan monk. He's known as the happiest man on
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: earth And his name is Matthew Ricard. And he wrote
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: this book called happiness. And that book fundamentally changed my
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: life and gave me a complete 180 in the sense
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: that it finally opened my eyes to the, to first
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: of all, to what happiness really is. Cause I knew
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I wanted happiness. I just didn't know what happiness really
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: meant through that book. I started to realize it's not
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: these things that we get taught in school, like make
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: more money, have a beautiful wife. You know, it's not
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: kind of the stereotype that Hollywood tells us. What really
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: brings happiness are things like gratitude and being of service
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: for others and being in connection and community and having
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: patience and courage and all these qualities of the heart
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: and mind that directly lead to a sense of inner
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: peace and inner happiness and have nothing to do with
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: how quote unquote successful you are in life. And so
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: it was through that book, first of all, I had
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: a North Star where I said, oh, this is what
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: I want. And the other thing the book did for
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: me is it gave me a pathway that made sense.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: It started to talk about neuroplasticity. And I'll never forget
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: this phrase that changed my life. There was a phrase
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: where they were talking about neuroplasticity, and there was this
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: phrase that said, neurons that fire together wire together. And
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: it made me realize two things. First of all, that
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: all the times I watched porn, what I was doing
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: was hardwiring feelings of dissatisfaction and unhappiness and craving and
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: lust and aversion and all these things that were directly
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: leading to suffering and unhappiness. Because every time I logged
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: on to porn, it was, I was activating those neural
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: pathways of craving something I didn't have not being satisfied
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: with what I already had. So that's where I started
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: to see, Oh, I'm actually training, like I'm responsible for
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: all the suffering I'm feeling because of the porn I'm watching.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: But the other thing, the flip side of that is
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: you can train your mind in these wholesome qualities of
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: happiness and inner peace through intentional practice. The more time
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: you spend in the neural pathways of contentment, the stronger
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: that becomes in your life. Yeah. And it turns out
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: that's what meditation is. I had always thought of meditation
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: as this airy, fairy, fluffy, spiritual thing where you had
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: to chant and you had to believe in some gods
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: and deities. And it turns out meditation is simply a
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: way of cultivating the mind in qualities that are good
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: for you and letting go of the qualities of the
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: mind and heart that are bad for you. That's it.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: It was mind blowing for me. So that sent me
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: on this long trajectory of realizing that that was the
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: most important thing in my life that I could do.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: I got to tell you everything. you're sharing about is
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: such truth. I mean, that's my story. That's my lived experience.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: And while my process was different, the things that changed
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: my life are exactly what you're talking about. We're just
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: going to take a quick moment. I'm going to share
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: about my new book that just came out, Wake Up,
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: You're Not Broken. It's a gentle companion for anyone who's
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: ready to stop drinking and taking their life back and
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: move from that chaos towards peace one day at a time,
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: especially during those first 30 days. You don't need to
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: have the rest of your life figured out. Sometimes we
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: feel like we got to have it all figured out,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: but it's just Staying in those days and when you
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: need the encouragement, the practical tools and the reminders. So
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: we're going to take a quick break and we'll be
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: right back. And I'll share about the book, Wake Up,
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: You're Not Broken, a gentle companion for your first 30
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: days of sobriety. Are you in the first 30 days
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: of sobriety or wondering if now is your time to start? Hi,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: I'm Marci Hopkins and I wrote Wake Up, You're Not
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Broken just for you. It's a real raw guide to
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: those first 30 days, what no one tells you, what
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: you will feel, and how to keep going. This isn't
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: about perfection. It's about progress. Order your copy now on Amazon. Remember,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: you're not alone. You're not broken. You're waking up.
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: Hello, all.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Wake Up With Marci. I am speaking
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: with Jeremy Lipkowitz about compulsive behavior and shame, mindfulness, and
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: overcoming addiction. And so now I want to take that
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: shift and start talking about the mindfulness and the gratitude
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: practice and all these incredible things that you have been
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: talking about, like what helps us.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: So for you, what, what was the.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: First thing that you would say the start of firing
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: our brain in a different way. You were talking about
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: meditation and I'm a huge, well, I won't say believer,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm a believer, but it really changed everything
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: for me. So what's happening when we meditate and we
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: practice that mindfulness?
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: One of the best ways to think about it is
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: with the gym analogy. In the same way that when
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: you go to gyms, And let's just give a basic
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: example of doing a bicep curl. Let's say you want
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: to grow your biceps and you go to the gym
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: and you pick up a dumbbell and you do a
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: bicep curl. And over time, that muscle grows stronger. The
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: more you use it and the more you give it
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: that resistance and that training, it grows stronger. And the
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: same is true for mental qualities. And meditation in many
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: ways is like going to the gym for the mind.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: You know, it's about strengthening the mind, It's about cleaning
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: it out and decluttering it and dusting it out and
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: sweeping out the cobwebs and making sure that it's actually
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: healthy inside. What's happening on a neurological level, every time
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: you practice meditation, is you are firing certain neural pathways
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: of certain mental qualities. And again, with that quote that
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: I mentioned before, that neurons that fire together wire together,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: the more time you spend in meditation, the stronger those
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: qualities in your mind become. So it can be as
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: simple as sitting down to follow your breathing. And a
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: lot of people make the mistake of thinking that meditation
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: is about following your breath. And they think that the
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: breath is what's really important. And when they lose track
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: of the breath, they get really discouraged and they say, oh, shoot,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: I lost the breath. I've lost the meditation. I'm such
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: a bad meditator. The truth is, Mindfulness has nothing to
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: do with the breath. It's about the quality of your
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: attention to what you're paying, you know, to what you're
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: paying attention to and how you're relating to what's happening.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: The breath is a helpful anchor. It's a helpful tool.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: But what's really important is, are you cultivating the kinds
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: of qualities that you want to pervade your life? If
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: you're sitting there in meditation and every time you lose
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: the breath, you chastise yourself and you beat yourself up
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: and you say, oh, I'm such a horrible meditator. All
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: you're doing is strengthening the mental qualities of self-hatred and
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: self-judgment and shame and feeling not good enough. It's so funny.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: We can turn something as beautiful as meditation into just
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: another way to shame ourselves and beat ourselves up.
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: Can you imagine?
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: I feel like we're all doing that unless we really
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: have practiced enough to know, wait a minute, I'm not
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: supposed to do that.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, this is why I became so passionate.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: about teaching others about meditation because I saw so many
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: people making these mistakes and thinking that meditation was about
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: something and really going down the wrong path with it
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: and just actually causing a bit more damage because of
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: these very subtle nuances that people often don't get taught.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: And it's actually really important if you add up all
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: that self-judgment every day for weeks or months or years
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: on end, it just adds to more self-hatred. And so
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: really there are some, you know, really helpful ways to
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: practice meditation and mindfulness that lead to helping you break
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: free from addiction that lead to you living a more
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: peaceful life that lead to you being able to be
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: in more harmony in your relationships with others. And actually share,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: please share. I mean, what's so funny is a lot
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: of the guys I work with come to me because
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: of porn, because of porn addiction. But almost inevitably, the
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: work that we end up doing is more about healing
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: their relationships. It's about learning how to be in honesty
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: and integrity, learning how to have difficult conversations with their
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: partner and not avoid the difficulties. It's about doing what
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: needs to be done and learning how to speak the
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: truth and communicate with love. I mean, it's all of
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: these things that people think recovery is just sobriety. And
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: it's not the same thing. You could stop drinking alcohol
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: and still be an addict. You could stop watching porn
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: and still be an asshole with a lot of problems.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people think stopping drinking is
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: the hard part. The hard part is actually learning to
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: live a new life, right? I always say, I try
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: to reframe the thought, right?
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: We're not giving up the addiction.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: We're actually getting our lives back and going back to
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: who we were before the addiction, right? And so, but it's, it's,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: The process. I mean, there is a lot of action
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: that has to be taken. And meditation is something, I
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: don't know, I can't tell you how many times I've heard,
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: I can't meditate.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: I can't quiet my mind. I don't know how. I
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: can't do it.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: And it's just like anything, right?
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: You do it more.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: You do it at small little intervals and then it
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: grows and grows and grows and you get better and
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: better and better. So you were saying, you know, about
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: how we can meditate. Does it always have to be
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: sitting in silence? Can we have guided meditations? Can we
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: be walking? Can we be in nature? Like, how can
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: we meditate? How can we even start? Yeah.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: So many fantastic questions. And they're all so important. And
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: so I'm glad you asked them. You know, a couple
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: of things. So first of all, the clearing the mind. Like, oh,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: I just can't, I can't clear my mind. I can't
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: empty my mind. This is another one of those huge
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: misconceptions that causes people so much pain and so much
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: suffering because they think that they're supposed to clear their
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: mind or empty their mind. And again, the point of
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: meditation is not to clear the mind. It's to be
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: in harmony with your mind. So you don't have to
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: stop your thoughts. You can't really stop your thoughts. And
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: so You know, a more skillful approach to meditation is
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: to say, just let your thoughts come and go. Let
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: them be like leaves floating down a stream or clouds
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: floating through sky. You don't have to fight them. Just
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: be aware of them as they're happening. And it's not
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: about clearing the mind. You can't clear the mind. It
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're a bad meditator. It just means you're
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: still alive and still kicking. So that's one thing I'll
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: say is to get out of this misconception of clearing
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: the mind. It also doesn't have to look like a
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: yogi sitting in full lotus posture with a mudra. You
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: can meditate in any posture, in any position, including walking,
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: including standing, including doing literally anything. You could be chopping
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: vegetables or brushing your teeth or having a conversation. And
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: in that process, you can still bring mindfulness to the
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: act of what you're doing. It doesn't even have to
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: be a five minute thing. It can be one mental
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: moment of being aware of what's happening as it's happening
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: and being in that state of curiosity and acceptance and
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: openness and actually like being there for what's happening. So
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: let's say you're having a difficult conversation with your partner
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: and there's some tension arising, some irritation. Just one moment
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: of being mindful and aware, oh, there's irritation. or there's tension,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: that's already a moment of mindfulness. And so you can
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: do these, you know, anywhere you are, which is the
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: beauty of them is that they, they pop up when
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: you need the most, when addiction strikes and craving strikes,
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: or you start to get hooked by a strong emotion.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: So they're different. There's, I guess another thing to say
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: is there's a difference between mindfulness and meditation. Meditation will
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: usually talk about it as a dedicated practice where you
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: set aside five minutes or 10 minutes to do a
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: kind of practice. And there are different forms of meditation.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Mindfulness is the one we're talking about the most right now,
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: but there are other kinds of meditation like self-compassion meditations,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: concentration-based meditations, and they're all slightly different and done in
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: different ways and have different outcomes and different effects on
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: the mind-body system. So it's important to know that there's
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: kind of a landscape of different practices out there.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: So I want to, okay, just for someone out there
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: right now, what is something they could do to start
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: introducing meditation into their life?
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Get an app. Get an app. Download a course. Find
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: a way to have a structured orientation to meditations. Just
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: kind of winging it and thinking, I'm going to go
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: sit on my front porch and I'm going to meditate. Again,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: if you don't really know what you're doing, you can
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: just be kind of not necessarily getting the benefits, the
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: most benefits out of it.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: You do need to learn how to do it. Yeah,
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: there is a learning the practice of it. Now, how
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: about gratitude? Because this is a huge one for me.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: How can someone start gratitude? the practice of gratitude and
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: moving from a.
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: Place of lack?
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: First of all, even if you're just aware that gratitude
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: is something you want to cultivate, that's already a huge
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: step in the right direction because most of our society,
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: it's not even on the radar. The idea of, wow,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: I should actually learn how to be grateful for what
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: I have and practice some contentment. you know, you're already
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: ahead of the game if you're even thinking about it.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: The next step after that is to then say, okay,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: what are the practices I can do? And there's many kinds.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: And my personal feeling is find what works with you
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: and find what resonates. And so for some people, having
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: a gratitude journal where they journal about the things they're
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: grateful for is really powerful and they really love it.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: For other people, it can be gratitude meditations where you
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: sit down and you're actually just kind of reflecting on
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: what you're grateful for and that can take the place
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: of thinking about your life at large and the people
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: you're grateful for and the the opportunities that you're grateful
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: for it can also be as simple as one of
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: the things i love to do with the people i
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: work with is doing a gratitude body scan where you're
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: simply scanning through your body like feeling different parts of
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: your body and sending gratitude to these parts of your
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: body that you take for granted I mean, when was
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: the last time you were really grateful of your eyes
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: for giving you the gift of seeing? Like, wow, I
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: have both my eyes.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: Those are huge. These things are huge and we take
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: them for granted. Yes.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: And we take everything in our body for granted. When
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: was the last time, you know, we actually sat in
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: gratitude of I have both my thumbs. Not everybody has
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: their thumbs.
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: No, I have learned. Yeah, I have learned.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: I still beat myself up about some things, but then
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: I'll go, Thank you for my beautiful body. Thank you
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: for this beautiful body that I have, right? So for
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: someone out there, because all diseases are a family disease,
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: if there's a woman, her husband is watching porn and
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: it's affecting their relationship and she's not feeling good enough,
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: is what can she do to maybe help him or
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: vice versa?
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we need a whole nother hour for the conversation.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: I know, we do, we do. It could go on
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: and on, yeah.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such an important topic because there are so
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: many partners out there of porn addicts and they're suffering
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: from a lot of these consequences and it can be
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: very confusing and it can be very distressing of believing
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: certain things to be true because of what you're witnessing.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: So one of the common ones is, thinking that your
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: partner is addicted to porn because there's something wrong with you.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Thinking that, oh, if I was just more beautiful or
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: if I was different in this way, like, is that
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: why he's watching porn? And what I'd like to highlight
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: is that almost 100% of the time, this addiction started
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: long before you and your partner met. This addiction started
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: in his, you know, before he was in his preteens,
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: most likely. For 99% of men, it starts when they're 8, 9,
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: 10 years old. And so this predates you by a
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: long shot. And the other thing is that for most men,
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: their porn addiction, and this gets a little bit controversial,
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and this might sound spicy, but the truth is,
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: is that for most guys, Their viewing of porn is
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: not about their sexuality. It's not about sex. It's a
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: coping mechanism that they're using to deal with difficult emotions
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: that they don't know how to deal with in any
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: other way. And they learned at a really young age
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: that if they're feeling stressed or they're feeling lonely or
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: they're feeling anxiety or they're feeling shame, that this thing
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: can help them numb. And it has nothing to do
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: with their sexuality. It has nothing to do with their
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: needs for intimacy. It's just the coping mechanism that they
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: latched onto when they were really young. And so if
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: they're still acting out with it, it's not because you're
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: not meeting their sexual, you know, kind of needs. So
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: that's just another point. It's not to condone their behavior.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: That's the thing that where it gets kind of misconstrued
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: as people think, oh, you're, you're condoning this behavior and,
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: but it's not to condone it. You know, a man
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: still needs to take ownership of that. He's causing harm
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: and that it's not okay. And that he's out of
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: integrity when he's doing this and keeping secrets, but it's,
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: it's simply to understand what it is and what it isn't.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: And for most of these guys, it's just a coping mechanism.
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: So for everyone out there, um, I, I'll just have
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: to have you come back.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: We'll talk more. Cause I feel like we could go
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: on and on.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Um, And I especially love speaking with someone that speaks
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: what I feel my language, what saved me. And what
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: you're sharing, I mean, saves people.
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: This really creates the change.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: I never thought I'd ever have peace in my life
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: and true happiness like you're speaking about. And these things work.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: So how can men or women reach out to you
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: for your support, your help, or if they even have
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: a question.
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: Well, first, if they're just interested in this topic and
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: want to learn more, I have my own podcast called Unhooked,
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: the Breaking Point Addiction Podcast. So if they just want
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: information and want to get started in that way, they
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: can check out the podcast. If they're interested in some
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: of the work that I do, they can check out unhookedacademy.com.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: And that's where I have an online men's group that
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: I run. And I also do one-on-one coaching. So they
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: can reach out to me there. Okay.
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: Fantastic.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: Well, Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on wake up.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: I've really enjoyed our conversation and you're doing great work. Yeah.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: And like the title of your book, I mean, you're
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: not alone. Like that's, you said it perfectly there. And
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: so for anyone out there listening, if you're struggling with this,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: or if you know someone's struggling with this, you're not alone.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent. So thank you again, Jeremy. And like
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: I said, we'll have to do it again. And thank
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: you again for coming on the show.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: My pleasure and happy to come on anytime.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Awesome.
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: All right, Jeremy, see you soon.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: I think one of the most important things about today's
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: conversation is realizing that although our behaviors may look different,
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: the desire underneath them can be remarkably similar. We want relief.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: We want comfort. We want to stop feeling whatever we're feeling.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: And eventually healing asks us to stop running long enough
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: to understand what is actually happening inside of us. So
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: if you're struggling with a compulsive behavior, shame will tell
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: you to hide it. Don't tell anyone that you should.
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: Be able to fix yourself. Tells you that you're not lovable.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: But secrecy is often exactly where these behaviors become stronger.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: Honesty creates the possibility for something different. So if this
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: conversation hits home, please like, comment, and share it with
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: somebody you know that may need to hear it. And
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: if alcohol is the escape you're ready to leave behind,
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: please check out my book, Wake Up, You're Not Broken,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: available on Amazon.
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: I wrote this book so it can be a guide.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: It can be a companion.
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: This book will walk beside you through those first 30
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: days of sobriety one day at a time. And this
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: could create a foundation in hopes of for yourself, for
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: long-term recovery.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: This is my lived experience. This is what has helped me.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: And like I said in the beginning, I'm about to
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: celebrate 11 years sober. So I hope you will check
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: that out. And I want you to know that you
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: don't have to become a completely different person overnight.
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: You're not going to.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: You can start by becoming honest about where you are
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: and taking the next step.
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: I want you to know you're not broken. You are beginning.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: This is Wake Up With Marci. I'm Marci Hopkins, and
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: I'll see you next time with an all new episode
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: every Thursday.