Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 705: How to Tell Your Internal Story with Jen Grisanti

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IFH 705: How to Tell Your Internal Story with Jen Grisanti · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ih podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Indie
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Film Hustle Podcast, Episode number seven, O five. Plot is the most
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underestimated of all the major writing skills. Most writers know the value of strong
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main character and lean, hardening dialogue, but when it comes to plot,
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they think they're just going to figure it out as they go, which never
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happens. John Druby broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
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Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an
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indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host,
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Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast.
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I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by
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That's film eizbook dot com. Now today on the show, we have guest
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Jen Grassanti. Jen is a former Hollywood executive working with Aaron Spelling for many
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many years, and now is a current script consultant. She's also the author
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of Storyline Finding Gold in Your Life Story as well as the TV Writing Toolkit
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How to Write a Script that sells, and I want to have Jen on
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the show to get a perspective of someone who's actually been in the business,
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who knows what these studios are looking for, knows what these production companies are
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looking for, and how she really works with story and how to mind your
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own life story and experiences to help fuel your creative writing. And her clients
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have written for every major television show on the air over the past ten years.
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The list is insane. I had a real ball talking to Jen and
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she dropped some major knowledge bombs on the Tribe this week. So, without
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any further ado, here is my conversation with Jen Groissanti. I'd like to
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welcome to the show. Jen Groissanti. Thank you so much for being on
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the show. Oh thanks for having me. I appreciate it. You are
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a very very busy lady and doing lots and lots of good work for a
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lot of screenwriters out there. So thanks for taking the time out to talk
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to the Tribe. It is my pleasure. Thank you. So how did
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you get into this crazy business? You know? I went to USC and
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I studied cinema communications and I and then I, yeah, I got out
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of school. I really didn't have anybody contact wise, I knew who I
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wanted entertainment, I didn't know exactly what capacity. So I went to Friedman
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job finding agency, which is focused on entertainment jobs, and that helped me
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build my resume also, which is great for people to know, like just
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a cold calling and called all my top places that i'd want I wanted to
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work, and I said I'm willing to intern, and that helped me build
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my resume. And then I real quick, is that something that you think
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that is doable even in today's world with so much more competition? I definitely
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do. I mean, I talked to so many people who do cold calling,
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and it's fat. Well, first of all, when you're offering to
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work for free as an intern, there that that certainly has its leverage with
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it. You know, it's just can you afford to do that? So
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I recommend, Like what I didn't know, and of course I was in
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college at a whole different time than now, But what I didn't know is
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like I should have started during college doing all my interns. Did ye.
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Yeah, see that's the smart way to go, and so and yeah,
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yeah, I've definitely believe in the co calling is a good way. And
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then the great thing is when you do apply to an agency like the Freedman
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Agency or the Comar Agency in Beverly Hills, then you have a resume already
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started, so you're not like going into these companies with nothing on your resume.
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And and then you get placed. I got placed in the Spelling Office,
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so you know, through Freedman, and that changed my entire career.
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I mean, you know, that was a pivotal moment in the deciding of
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what direction I was going to go with my career. Now, let's talk
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a little bit about the Spelling Office. And when you say Spelling Office,
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you're talking about the legendary Aaron Spelling. For the audience. For audience members
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who don't know who Aaron Spelling is, please tell a little bit about who
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he is and what he did. And then how what was it like being
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mentored by by a course of course, so well Aaron Spelling, if you
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i'd like, the younger audience doesn't have near as much knowledge and I and
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I totally understand and appreciate that CW has done a new nine h two one
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zero in a new Melrose Place. But Aaron Spelling was the originator of like
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Dynasty, t J. Hooker in a million shows, like he is one
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of the most prolific producers in history with the number of hours of television that
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he produced. And then when I started in his office, he nine or
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two one o had been going for a year, Like there was a point
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in Aaron's career that that they called ABC because he had seven shows on ABC.
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They called it Aaron's Broadcasting Company, and so and and that didn't go
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over too well, so so that you know, so he went through that
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era and then he and then and he all of his shows got canceled at
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a similar time that were happening at that time, and then he kind of
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went through a dry spell before nine or two one zero, which really so
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when I entered his office, he was in such a place of he was
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so humble and so open because of what he had experienced. And nine or
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two wine I was taking off at the time that I was in the office,
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it was the first year. And then Melbour's Place was the day that
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I started, Melbour's Place was being cast. So the original, the original
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Melrose placed in the original Beverly Hills nine or two one oh, So that
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was you know, then Spelling was on fire again, and then everybody wanted
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to be in business with him, and he did a lot of business with
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Fox obviously because of nine or two one oh, melrose Place, and then
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branched out into seas and other network in NBC and UH and it really things
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took off again. So it was a very good time. I was twenty
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four, he was sixty nine, So it was a very good time because
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he was in a life place where where he wanted to mentor and he really
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wanted to teach me how to be his eyes and ears for you know,
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for scripts and story coming in. So I was very blessed, you know,
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you were at the right place at the right time. I was.
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Yeah, it was a good good thing and for and for people listening.
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I mean, you can't underestimate the power of what nine or two one oh
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did and melrose Place did at the time. It was a phenomenon, it
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really, it really was. I actually lived down the street in Florida in
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that mall where Luke Perry created the riot. Oh, I love that great,
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I love that. I mean, it was a pivotal time in my
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life. And even though like I had graduated college when it was first started.
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It was still such a pivotal time because high school is such a time
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for every single one of us. It's such a growth period that we're going
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through, like a huge arc of growth, and so and so looking at
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them kind of go through their their joys and their trials and their tribulations,
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it brings us back into it. But but they were but they were all
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twenty seven at least, Yes, exactly, I know they were a little
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outside. Yeah, there's nobody who was creative liberty, there was no doubt
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about that. I think was like thirty. I was funny. That's so
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funny. I remember all that went with that choice. Yeah, be right
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back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.
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Yeah, I Luke is such a good guy. Now what did you um
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What were some of the biggest takeaways you got from Aaron? You know,
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I mean, I again, it was a gift to be taught by a
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gentleman who was so about the work and so passionate about the work, and
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so like, he expected a lot from you in that he expected you know,
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he expected perfection and that was a very hard thing to learn, to
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really operate on that level. But it was the greatest training ground, and
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because he expected perfection from himself and he gave it, and it really helped
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to look at things and really operate at a high level. Now it's not
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to say, like when I say the word perfection, you are going to
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make mistakes along the way in every path, and it really I think what
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a lot of what he taught me was. You know, if a mistake
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is made, then it's how you fix it that makes the difference. It's
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how you respond after it, how you take responsibility for it, how you
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move forward after it. He was a master when it came to story.
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So watching him in the we would have rough cuts in his office at the
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episodes, and a rough cut is after production is done and it comes into
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the producer's office and then you watch what's called rough cut. And it was
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always really amazing to see how you could take a script and do all your
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notes on the sup and then when it would be filmed then recognize, well,
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there are changes that I want to make, and through editing, like
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just watching how he would do things to like make the act break more impactful,
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or how he would move around scenes so that the story would work in
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a lot stronger way and really, you know, learning about I think the
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thing that made him the happiest was, you know, knowing that he had
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the ability to discover young talent. And by young, I don't mean age,
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I just mean young at the beginning of the career. So he had
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to discover newer talent and know that he could open a door that could change
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someone's life. Now, how long were you with Aaron Spelling? Twelve years?
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While, so you were there for a while, Yes, yeah,
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you, And I'm assuming you you rose in the ranks I did. I
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buy now, And again, it's always good for people to hear like it's
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really focusing on what you want. I was lucky that at the time I
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was in his office, my mom had given me tapes from Tony Robins,
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and that tape set had really helped me, hone in on what do I
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want and how do I get there? And what are the action steps that
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I need to take. So when I was in his office, I recognized
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there was no one reading scripts in his inner office, in his immediate office.
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So because he would always do like five or ten calls trying to find
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the answers to things, I thought, well, why didn't I just read
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the scripts, and of course that meant that I've worked till eight thirty at
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night and read scripts till eleven thirty at night, but it was worth it.
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And so that is what began the process of me reading scripts and then
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we go over the script the following day, and that's really what taught me.
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And then from there I became a coordinator of current programming, than a
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manager, than a director, and then I ran current programming at his company
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for my last two and a half years before I was promoted to CBS Paramount
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where I was vice president of current Programming. And were you there during the
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Charmed years? I was, Yes, I love that show. Yes,
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yes, Charmed was a blast. It was amazing with that show to see
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where it started and see where it went as well. I think that was
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the most rewarding part of current programming, was, you know, really watching
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a show develop and find its voice and find its audience within the time.
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And certainly we're in a day and age where the TV shows don't have the
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luxury now that they did one I started my career, and that now they
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really you know, ideally, a current show usually can take anywhere from five
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to eight episodes, to really find its voice and to really blend the network,
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the studio, and the show runners vision into something that really works.
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And now the hard thing is is very often you don't have that kind of
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time, so you have to find what the show is sooner, right,
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because it's just too much company. I mean, before there was some channel,
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there was three channels, and you can just sit you can either watch
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what we're putting out or you can watch nothing. It's exactly exactly, And
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there was three there was three shows on at nine o'clock. I know.
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I mean when I started my career, the only expects people were writing were
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sopranos and sex in the city. You know what it means too. It
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was like, you know, how fascinating how different things are now? Very
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much? So well, can we talk a little bit about the explosion in
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scripted series and the opportunities for writers today. I mean, isn't there like
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four hundred and fifty? Yeah, you know, it's fascinating, Like even
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though there's massive opportunity and television and there definitely is, it doesn't make the
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path to getting a job not much easier. I wish that it did,
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but the thing is, there's just more competition now there is. If there
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would have been four shows in nineteen ninety, yeah, then yes, anybody
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who could literally just get up to a typewriter yeah and write scrapt something like
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a monkey could get a job. But there's so much more. No,
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it's not the case. I mean, it really takes a village to get
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a person staffed. Like when I was starting as an executive, you know
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really, I mean I really worked hard on staffing most of the shows that
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I worked on, I worked with my executive producer, and I was in
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all the meetings with the writers, and I handled many of the calls with
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the agents. So you really saw, you know, what went into why
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why the people were getting staffed, were getting staffed and so it was and
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it shows you and I definitely think and trust me in my business Generissanti Consultancy,
17:22
Inc. I've been doing this for ten years and I look at how
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many feature writers I've worked with that I've I've gotten to write television and just
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because there definitely is more opportunity in TV. So uh, if the talent
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is there, in my opinion, the platform to be in is television right
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now. That's what everyone talking to says. The exact same. Well,
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there's as it's a renaissance, honestly, it really is. And it started
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with I would agree, Would you argue it started with the sopranos honestly,
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yeah, I would totally agree. Yeah, it's and it kind of just
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went from there. Yeah. Could could breaking bad have happened in the nineties,
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I know, I mean you do look at the pivotal shows and the
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fascinating thing now, like when you look at shows now like like the OA
18:15
and sense Aid and Fleabag and there's a great show on Netflix called Deep Poor
18:26
Song ten Percent or Call My Agent is the English title, and that it's
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brilliant, and so you know, I think the work being done right now.
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A lot of the shows that I teach from currently I can't tell you,
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like like so many of the shows that I teach from our British shows
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too. You know that that land on network, I mean on Netflix or
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Amazon or Hulu, and they get to go outside the box. They have
18:56
more freedom. And because they have more freedom and more creative liberty, I
19:03
find that I'm able to create story tools from the writing on there that I'm
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able to pass on to the writer so that they can write the script that
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can't be ignored that will lead to a sale, that will lead to them
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getting staffed. And do you suggest that writers do a screenplay or a teleplay
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first? Which one do you think? If there's if you're a screenwriter and
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you want to get attention, do you write a teleplay first? Or do
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you write a feature screenplay first? As as a proof of concept, I
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mean you certainly like when you're looking at writing portfolio right now, you could
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have a feature script in it. Now, You're never going to get someone
19:42
in television to read a feature script unless they hear it's so good and the
19:48
content and it is so right for the show that is being staffed. We'll
19:55
be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.
20:04
So really, in TV you want to write now? Now? Of
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course you had what you're asking I think as well is do you write a
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spec script of a show that's already on or do you write an original?
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And you know, there are different schools of thoughts. Certainly, when I
20:21
came up the ranks, you had to have two spec scripts and your writing
20:26
portfolio that were current no no older than two years old, and two originals.
20:33
And I would definitely say there's been a shift and that there are writers
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out there who really don't want to write TV spec scripts or the existing shows.
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They only want to write original material. It used to be that you
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couldn't you had to have it. And the reason was because when you would
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try to you know, when I would pitch a writer to my executive producer
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with a TV pilot, they would read the pilot first and be, you
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know, and really want to know the original voice of the writer. But
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then they'd want they'd ask for the spec script because they wanted to know that
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that writer knew how to mimic somebody else's voice, right, And that's that's
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that's a really good point when you're when you're writing for a show, because
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a lot of writers have a very unique voice. You know, Tarantino has
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wanted to arguably one of the most unique voices out there. Uh. And
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he did do some writing. He did a CSI episode which and an ear
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episode. Actually, I love it, that's great. I didn't know that
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they did great those and they and he wrote them in but he was Tarantino,
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so they let him kind of go off a little bit um. But
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generally, but generally speaking, when a writer comes on staff, he has
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to mimic the show. He can't just be himself or herself. How how
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do you what kind of what kind of tips do you have for writers to
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be able to adapt like that? Well, you have to know, I
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think also now more than ever, you have to understand your voice. And
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I always ask writers do you know what your voice is? And then I'll
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get like, say, a third of a room that knows, and then
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I'll say, how would you describe it? And then I'll have like maybe
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four hands left that really want, really know how to describe their voice.
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And so I think part of the journey for the writer is knowing what your
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voice is, and then when you're mimicking somebody else's show. I've had many
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writers say, well, I can't really use my voice on someone else's show
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because it's air show. Now that that's not true, because you what a
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writer, you know. I remember Dan O'Shannon, who's an Emmy Award winning
22:45
writer from Modern Family. He said to me, like one of his strategies
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and I loved it, winning with staffing for shows at the beginning of his
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career was he would find out that character that they struggled the most with writing
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wise, and he would make he would have a pitch ready with that character
23:10
in a stronger light so that they would realize they need him on that show.
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And so I thought that was such a such a great approach. But
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I think, like for me, when I remember watching a show like say
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Big Love on HBO, and I would know as soon as I saw the
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writer's name, I would know if I was going to love the episode,
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because I so understood the voice of each writer and the capability of each writer
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with the stories. So there's definitely even in mimicking somebody else's voice. Like
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you with your spec scripts, you definitely don't want to write a spec script
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that doesn't feel like a produced episode. You want to write a script that
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feels like a produced stephod. But you also want to write a script that
24:03
dives and digs deep into, you know, the emotional aspect of the story
24:08
or the uniqueness of the story that makes it so that yours is a script
24:15
that can't be ignored. Like I remember, I remember there was a writer
24:18
uncharmed who I brought him into the executive producer and he got staffed in the
24:26
room based on the strength of his spec script. He wrote a Sopranos script
24:32
that was so memorable, like I still remember it, and it was,
24:37
you know, Tony Whenny. They showed a flashback of Tony Whenny was a
24:41
child and he got caught masturbating by his mom, and the shame that was
24:48
in that moment transferred to everything that was going on in the current plot,
24:55
and so he threaded it through so that everybody could connect with what that experience
25:03
must have been like, which brought you so much deeper into the story.
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And it was a memorable script, you know. And then, like I
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mean, people did stuff like I had writers write combinations spec scripts like I
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had. There was a writer that wrote a Sopranos and a Sex in the
25:23
City mixed, you know. So there certainly were different strategies that people use
25:30
and carry in the same episode. Yeah, I'm sure he got some notice
25:37
for it, I know in the and people remember this. I remember there
25:40
was also a writing team who had been together for many, many years and
25:45
they wrote a pilot that was loosely based on their split, and everyone wanted
25:52
to know that story, so that became you know. So I definitely think
25:56
there are there are such original ways and as I said, when you look
26:00
at shows like Fleabag and The OA and De Persant like there, you there
26:07
are ways to go outside the box with your voice but still have a strong
26:15
structure. There are also shows that that are succeeding quite honestly, that are
26:22
the structure isn't great, but the voice is great, and so you know,
26:27
so there's something to be said about this as well. That's why I
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think it's more important now than ever to know your voice and create concepts that
26:40
really utilize the strength of your voice. And that voice is so strong in
26:45
a show like Stranger Things, which is a phenomenon at this point. Definitely,
26:48
absolutely, but that voice is so strong and so specific. It is
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thirteen reasons why. I mean so many, Like there's just so many smell
27:00
That's now up for Best Comedy. Yeah, there there are so many shows
27:04
that the people are going outside the box and they're taking risks and they're not
27:10
doing traditional structure, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But there's
27:15
a freedom to do that stuff where it couldn't you couldn't do it before.
27:19
Yeah, I agree. Look at a show like Frank Frankie and Grace and
27:22
Frankie, Yes, which is I just love that show. Yeah, I
27:26
do too. Such a well written show, and it's so funny and it's
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so out like they would never put that would never be on network television.
27:36
It just couldn't, it couldn't. I agree. It's so wonderful to see
27:38
them all just pounding, you know, the stories are just pounding at at
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a high level as you Yes, um, Now, what is the biggest
27:48
mistake you see first time writers make? You know, I think when it
27:55
comes down to development story, I think the biggest mistake made in pilots is
27:59
either too much character and not enough plot, or too much plot and not
28:03
enough character. So I think it's really recognizing that, you know, TV
28:11
is a character based business, so your audience is coming back because of your
28:15
characters. So it's really doing the work on developing two to three of your
28:23
characters in a very strong way that brings your audience back. And I think
28:30
that many writers, you know, first they'll populate their show way too much
28:36
and have way too many characters, and they'll have several characters serving the same
28:41
purpose and doing the same thing. And so, you know, I think
28:47
it's understanding, it's really understanding that less is more and when an executive,
28:52
like when I would have three hundred scripts behind me during staffing season and I
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opened a script. First of all, with dramas, you want to be
29:00
around fifty eight to sixty pages max. And and you don't want it to
29:10
be so complex that the executive would have to read it three times to really
29:15
be able to grasp the concept. So it's really writing toward that recognition.
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And I would say newer writers, you know, have the weight of oh
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my god, I have to make this stand out, and it has to
29:30
be a dynamo. And in order to be a dynamo, so many people
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think they have to reinvent the wheel, and in doing so, they lose
29:41
a grasp what it is they're trying to say with their story because they're trying
29:45
to impress. Yes, now with that on that topic, trying to impress.
29:51
And this is something I've seen and I've heard from multiple places. Well,
29:53
I'd love to hear your opinion. We'll be right back after a word
29:57
from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Sometimes when you're reading
30:07
a script, especially from a new writer, you see them using not only
30:11
fifty cent words, but dollar fifty words that are just you know, so
30:18
out there as far as you know, just reading. Do you feel that
30:22
by doing that you alienate the reader sometimes because you know it's it's not supposed
30:26
to be a vocabulary test. Well, you know, I know that note
30:30
is definitely given and writers on the Virgin MBC. I'm a writing instructor there
30:36
like and I've done that for nine years now, and I know that one
30:40
of the notes that is often given by my colleague Karen Horne, who who
30:47
runs the whole diversity program at NBC, all of the diversity programs, Karen
30:53
like, she's definitely given the note of if I can't understand it, and
31:00
you know what I mean. So so you have to, yes, you
31:03
have to think of those things, like if it's one thing like to go,
31:07
oh, I want to use big words because I want to impress my
31:10
audience. Now it really is looking at I always say, like, you
31:14
always have to think what serves the story in the strongest way, right and
31:18
what you know. But if the reader has to literally stop reading your script
31:25
and go to the dictionary because they can't really place the use of the word,
31:30
then there's a problem. You're interrupting the process, You're interrupting the flow
31:34
but I am a person. I have to be honest. I like the
31:37
high vocabulary, like I am interested and the people who get and I like
31:45
the lyrical and the poetic use in the language. I'm a big person of
31:49
I love when I read action lines that they even get really creative with the
31:56
action lines like that for me? Is I love all that? Now?
32:00
I read um in Stephen King's book on writing. He actually brought that up.
32:06
He's like, look, you know and he's arguably one of the most
32:07
successful writers in history. Yeah, He's like, look, I can use
32:12
big words. Watch and he just lays out this little paragraph with forty five
32:17
I mean forty five words I've never even heard of. And he's like,
32:21
did you understand that? No, that means I didn't sell that book,
32:23
so stop it. Yeah, and I could not. I could not agree
32:30
more. I have to admit, though, like I don't think I've ever
32:32
put a script down and said those words are too big and I can't get
32:37
it. Now it rare. Now, you're also very experienced reading. I've
32:45
been in this for twenty five years. Yeah, there's you're not the audience
32:49
pay general audience reading scripts today. Yes, that's true. Now it's very
32:54
true. Well, and I have to say it's fascinating thing too in what
32:59
people have to consider, Like, you know, I have writers in my
33:04
story Wise community and they're always on a private Facebook and I always look at
33:07
the comments and see what writers are talking about. And I know recently I've
33:13
had several of my writers from my story wise can we tell us theminar end
33:16
up doing incredibly well in the competitions and the writing programs. And so they
33:23
were talking about this one festival which I'm not going to name, but they
33:28
were talking about this one festival where you know, several of them had one
33:34
or placed in several competitions based on the script. There one script, and
33:40
then they sent it to this festival and suddenly the feedback didn't at all aligne
33:50
with all the other feedback that they've gotten. And that's because some of these
33:57
festivals pay their readers nothing, and they're readers are twenty five years old,
34:01
and they don't have the experience with story to be able to give the feedback
34:07
that really really reflects what the work is. And so when you're writing the
34:14
big words and you're going over the top, you have to think about things
34:16
like that, like if you have a twenty five year old reader who misses
34:21
the whole point of your story because of your vocabulary. That's a problem,
34:27
and it will never get to a person like you who can actually understand it
34:30
because the gatekeepers will let it go through. Yeah. So it's it's strategy
34:36
as much as it is writing. Yes, it is. No, everything
34:40
is strategy. I always say to writers, like, when you're designing your
34:45
writing portfolio, you have to think, what are the three top shows that
34:50
I would die to write on? And then you have to look at your
34:53
portfolio and go does my portfolio support that outcome? Fairly simple, but very
35:00
It's something that is missed quite often. Yes. Yeah, it's like the
35:05
director who wants to direct action movies but he's only done period drama sincere.
35:09
Yeah. And you know, I am a believer that I see the dream
35:15
happen all the time. So I'm definitely not a person who's going to say
35:20
the dream doesn't happen, because the dream happens every day. And you have
35:24
I think the biggest, the strongest component for the writers I've worked with that
35:31
have made it in a big way is belief. You have to have belief
35:37
in your talent because if you don't believe nobody else will. Now is what
35:42
stops screenwriters from being successful getting in their own way. I mean I see
35:47
it all the time. I see it all the time. You know,
35:51
you see writers who write too much and don't know how to edit back and
36:00
talk like that as well. When they're in a room like there, there's
36:04
so much being said that you have to really fish out what is the main
36:08
point of what is being said. So that's certainly a way, and I
36:13
know that's nervous energy and that's and you have to go through things to really
36:17
know them. But but things like in other thin ways people get in their
36:22
own way is they'll they'll they'll be in a room and they'll alienate other people,
36:30
or they'll um, they'll talk they won't talk at all, so they
36:36
won't contribute, so so that's a problem. Or they'll talk too much and
36:42
you'll feel like, okay, they just want to hear themselves think and and
36:46
you know there's not valuable stuff coming out here. So I think the whole
36:52
editing process on the page and in the room, uh is the biggest part.
36:58
And then I think you have incredibly talented writers who are very internal people
37:06
and to make a writing career happen, you have to be external. So
37:12
that journey, you know, the perfect pilot that went into that was Silicon
37:16
Valley. You know, Richard when Erlok said, dude, you got to
37:20
make something a pie piper or you're out of the house. Richard then,
37:25
who was a very internal person, had to learn to become the external.
37:31
In the first scene, he's pitching is pie piper idea to these two guys
37:37
at the sink at the office, and they laugh at him, and that,
37:43
you know, but that's the process, Like the growth process is,
37:46
Yeah, you're going to make mistakes, You're going to pitch ideas that people
37:51
don't like. That's okay. At least you're trying and you're learning, and
37:54
you're growing and you're evolving and you're moving forward, and that's what you want
37:59
to be doing. Certainly, don't want talent like it drives me crazy when
38:05
I see incredible talent that they never be realized because of one thing that that
38:13
gets in the way of the outcome happening. It happens in every aspect of
38:17
the of life. But in the film business, I've seen it. Two
38:21
directors just get in their own way we've seen it publicly to something yes,
38:25
oh yeah, sweet, I mean the whole new world going on right now,
38:32
I think, do you know, like for me though, and not
38:35
to go into anything on that, which I certainly could, sure of course,
38:39
but I you know, my feeling with that is now that it's been
38:45
exposed and the careers and livelihoods and everything else have are gone, I've gone
38:52
down the drain and now it's like it has to be about the focus needs
38:59
to move into changing systems so that this doesn't happen Like that is more important
39:07
than ever right now. I certainly love that out of all this, our
39:13
young daughters are going to be able to go after the dream without having to
39:21
go through that. Like that makes my heart very happy to know. I
39:24
don't have kids, but my yeah, like that. It's an important thing,
39:30
and so I think it. I think it's a growth time for everybody
39:36
in the business to really look at behavior and understand it. Yeah. The
39:43
one thing I find fascinating about it and I've never seen this, I don't
39:46
think ever, other than maybe in the McCarthy day. No McCarthy, but
39:52
is it McCarthy. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
40:00
And now back to the show. Well, they were they were doing they're
40:05
doing the communist hunt. Yes, yes, yes, um that I don't
40:08
think that's you know, everything that's happening right now is completely valid um and
40:13
needed without question. But I've never seen complete careers oscar winning careers, I
40:21
know gone and like it's gone. Kevin Spacey will not work again. I
40:27
can't see. I can't see a path back. I can't see a path
40:30
backwood redemption story I do. That's like there are people like Harvey Wines,
40:37
things Bill Causey that you look at and you know, and there are other
40:44
there are other big ones, but I'm not even gonna name. Look,
40:47
you know, you sit there and you go. They can't they can't like
40:52
it. It was too dark and there were too many people saying too many
40:57
things that aligned, and so you have to But I, you know,
41:04
see stuff like this intrigues me on a psychological level because I would love to
41:08
see a show done where the league character is like a Kevin Spacey or a
41:15
Matt Lower or a Harvey Weinstein and how do they move through life after that
41:22
fall? So so like a breaking bad But instead of selling me that they're
41:27
they're harassers. They're finding their life. I mean, they're having to figure
41:31
out where they went wrong and how do they get life back on track.
41:37
That intrigues me because I'm that's a curiosity too, Like after you know,
41:43
I mean literally, they wiped Kevin Spacey from this movie that came back,
41:46
yes, a few weeks before the release. That's wild. You're raced,
41:52
that's what you're You're gone. You're doing it now. Now you're doing a
41:57
House of Cards and all this kind of stuff. Um. And the fun
42:00
thing is, I know, I'm talking to my friends who you know,
42:02
are in the business, but you know, I've been around a bit longer
42:05
than them, and I'm like, this guy's gonna come out next. This
42:07
guy's gonna come out next, and this next. Do you know what?
42:10
I done that too? I feel so funny that you said that. Like
42:15
I was a dinner with a close friend of mine who had a big project
42:21
with a big producer, and I said his days are numbered, and two
42:24
days later it was in the trades, and and yes, it's so true.
42:29
It's I mean, I was talking to my buddy the other day.
42:31
I'm like, you know who's coming out next? It's gonna be Rattner's coming
42:35
next, and yet is the one we all heard it. I knew,
42:40
we all knew, and I knew. And by the way, I heard
42:44
those stories when he was in Miami pre rush hour, yes, before he
42:49
was a big So I've heard these stories. And then I heard about Brian's
42:52
singer. I heard it happy before that happened. Yeah, Brian and Kevin
42:57
both, I heard about them back in two thousand and one. Yeah,
43:00
I was hearing about those two. That's how long ago it was. It's
43:06
insanity. Well, and the thing that's hard about this too is there there's
43:10
a lot of hypocrisy, so so you know, there's certainly, uh you
43:17
know, things have to change because there there are a lot of people that
43:22
supported this who aren't being punished. Oh yeah, and who were a part
43:28
of this happening. So things have to change so that we don't have careers
43:37
going down the toilet left and right every day, like literally it feels like
43:40
a pr thing of who gets what day when they come out. I mean,
43:45
it's insane. It's insane. And it's not just our business. It's
43:49
not every it's every business, and it's all over the world. London is
43:53
now heavy into it and then Australia with Jeffrey Rush I mean everybody is it
44:00
now, it's so it's yeah, yeah, it's gonna get pretty We've got
44:05
We've gone way off topic. Yes, that's all right, that's what's going
44:09
on right now. That's typical. But that is how we draw from that
44:14
and bring that to the page without question. And that's h that's very very
44:19
valid. Now, um can you can you talk a real quick about some
44:22
bad habits you see writers do all the time. Um, well, you
44:27
know there are people who will harp on typos and this and that, and
44:31
I I say, whatever you can do, have as few typos as possible.
44:37
I definitely agree that it will distract you. However, I have also
44:43
seen writers who just kill themselves worry wise after they enter a program because they
44:49
find two typos. And what you have to know is if the content is
44:54
there, that's what sells. So so so you really have to trust in
45:01
the content, I would say, you know, so they you know,
45:06
things like things to look at, like you know, steady scripts, I
45:10
mean look at you know, look at scripts. Know how many pages are
45:15
per act? No, you know, and there's no steadfast rule on how
45:20
many pages per act, but have a general idea like don't have a thirty
45:24
page Act one and then five pages for every other act, like really know
45:30
things that you should know through that through looking at scripts. Certainly you can
45:35
go to the writer Scale Library. There are many people who say, well,
45:37
I can't get a whole of scripts number I on my website, and
45:40
I'm sure you have resources as well, where you go to my resources page
45:45
and my links and I have all the websites that have scripts, and so
45:51
you can get scripts. And then I would say another mistake writers make is
45:54
they're not prepared for meetings. They don't know who they're meeting with. And
46:00
there's no excuse for this right now, like the Internet tells you everything about
46:05
everyone, and so you you know, walk into a meeting, be prepared,
46:10
be ready. To always tell writers too, to think when you're going
46:15
into a meeting, have three marketing points that you absolutely do not want to
46:20
leave the meeting without sharing. Have three points, then you could relax in
46:25
the meeting. But no that you have to bring up those three points.
46:30
Now, what are those when you mean marketing points? What do you mean
46:32
exactly? Well, anything that markets you as a writer, so say,
46:36
for example, I had I'm not going to name him because I don't want
46:43
to embarrass him, but it was actually I love that he shared this.
46:45
I had a very big showrunner at one of my seminars share a story that
46:51
he had gone into a meeting that was a medical show and he had thirteen
46:54
years background as a medical administrator he forgot to bring on. Yes, So
47:06
you know there are things that you know you get nervous and you forget and
47:10
so you yeah. So that's an example, Like you you have to be
47:16
prepared. You have to know what is a show I'm up for? What
47:21
do I have in my background that shows the executive that I have a huge
47:25
well of story to be able to tell story for this concept if you're going
47:31
on a specific show. If you're not going on a specific show, then
47:36
you want to know, like what are my overall general story points and that
47:40
could you know, you definitely want to think about what is a personal anecdote
47:45
that I have that reveals something about me? For example, you know I
47:50
can say for myself when I started my own business ten years ago on my
47:57
two main story points were I'd are you know I was in a long relationship
48:05
that ended in a short marriage and represented the death of the fairy tale.
48:08
And I had my career was interrupted mid flow when I was a vice president
48:17
because I thought I was going to run a studio, and so when the
48:22
job, when my contract wasn't renewed on the heels of an unexpected situation,
48:30
then I had to readjust and redefine and everything that. I was a blogger
48:37
for Huffington Post for like seven or eight years, and my books, my
48:42
two books sold on those two story points. So you have to really,
48:46
really you know, and when you share your emotional truth, that's how you
48:52
discover your audience. That's how you find when I'll go into a room and
48:57
I'll say, oh, Aaron Spelling was my mentor for twelve years, and
49:00
I've been in the business for all this time. I've been a writing instructor
49:05
for NBC for nine years. I this, I that people don't connect with
49:08
that because they don't know that life experience. But when I say I was
49:14
in a long relationship that ended in a short marriage and represented the death of
49:19
the fairy tale, how many people know what it is to have your heartbroken?
49:22
Then you have half the room. Yeah, everyone knows and then I'll
49:25
say how many people have lost a job? Then you have the other half
49:29
of the room raiser, and and it's like then it's like I see you,
49:32
you see me, and that's what you want to do. Now,
49:37
can you discuss a little bit about your books? Yes, so storyline finding
49:40
gold in your life. Story is adding fiction to your truth. So as
49:46
an executive, the biggest thing I was known for was really diving deep in
49:53
my writer meetings into the well of story. We'll be right back after a
50:00
word from our sponsor, and now back to the show of writers. And
50:08
then I would say, have you ever written about that? And I'll say,
50:12
not in an autobiographical way, but in a way of sharing your emotional
50:17
truth. And the difference in the gift of sharing your emotional truth is that
50:24
you can heal, and writing is healing. You can heal and bury your
50:30
truth in fiction, which is why people write. And so you know,
50:37
it's really this book is all about through breaking down features and television. And
50:44
both books are based on my philosophy of story, which in simplistic terms,
50:50
and I certainly go into a much more advanced look at it in my books,
50:54
but in simplistic terms, my formula that I discovered that Oscar nominated,
51:00
Emmy nominated, Golden Globe nominated stories. What I found when I extracted at
51:07
a formula was that every story starts with a powerful trigger incident that pushes the
51:15
character into a dilemma. And then the choice that is made in that dilemma
51:22
is what defines the external goal. And then every action taken, obstacle hit
51:30
needs to link back to that goal. And it's when the goal isn't defined
51:37
that the story doesn't work. So we have to know what the character wants
51:42
and why they want it, and so that philosophy is in every single one
51:49
of us, like you talked about Michael Hagan, everyone out there, you
51:53
know, Lead, Jessup, Pilar, Alexandra dary Marks, you know,
52:00
like everyone. The gift of story people really is that we are sharing what
52:08
we know through our lens, through our worldview. A story I happen to
52:15
come from the studio executive worldview, So that's how I see story. I
52:21
see story through that lens. And then after leaving that view and becoming a
52:25
writing instructor for NBC and building my own business, then that lens became even
52:31
more enhanced because I was I had the time to dig deeper into the story
52:38
process and really see what it was and read every single thing out there.
52:44
I mean, I highly recommend that every writer, like, read every script
52:49
you can get your hands on, read every book that comes out on story
52:53
and recognizers of value and a gift through understanding other people's world you and understanding
53:00
how to utilize it in your voice, in your worldview. It's it's a
53:07
very good point, is understanding and when when when you're following people, and
53:10
because there's so many people, so many podcasts out there, yeah, so
53:14
many blogs out there. Yeah, and a lot of them are saying a
53:16
lot of the same stuff. Yeah, But it's all about perspective, And
53:21
I think that's one of the reasons, right, because I mean, look,
53:24
a lot of the information that I put out there through indie film Hustle
53:28
is out in other places. But I have a unique perspective. And you're
53:30
right. I never thought of it that way. But my worldview is coming
53:34
from post production and film and kind of like the trenches, if you will,
53:39
but not from directing a two hundred million dollars movie. Yeah, there's
53:44
the value in your perspective because we need to know all of it, you
53:47
know, like you'll have people who will say I'll have people say, well,
53:51
Jen, have you ever written a script? And I have written a
53:53
script, but I'm not a writer like I am. I recognize that my
53:59
strength is internal with writing. So writing articles content in books is where my
54:07
love and my passion is and screenwriting is not my passion because I was raised
54:16
on the analytical side of it. And that's that's the side that I love.
54:22
I love diving into why story works and how to create tools to pass
54:30
on to writers so that they can make their story work. Now, I'm
54:35
going to ask you a few questions ask all of my guests. So it's
54:37
kind of like rapid fire. Yeah, what advice would you give a screenwriter
54:40
wanting to break into the business today? I think, right right, right
54:50
is the probably the bigg I know so many writers who don't write. So
54:54
you have to have a body of work. You have have to fearlessly move
55:01
through every story and recognize that you grow with every script you write. So
55:09
you have to you know, really, and I think it's it's it's understanding
55:15
your passion and your emotional truth, and then it's also looking at what the
55:22
market but not but recognizing your passion is what sells, so the market has
55:29
room for new ideas. So don't think you have to write only toward the
55:35
market. Know that you have to write toward your passion, because your passion
55:39
is what sells. Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest
55:44
impact on your life or career? Uh? You know, I've had so
55:50
money. That's such a good question. I mean, like on a spiritual
55:52
level, you know there are God there's a book called Understanding the Why.
56:05
I can't I forget the name. Exactly what I would say in in the
56:10
Entertainment, in writing my favorite books, and I have so many of them,
56:15
but I'd have to say, I love Stealing Fire from the God.
56:21
I love, I love dB Guiles book, The Screenwriter Within, I love
56:29
Oh my God. There's a book that I'm reading right now, and I
56:31
have to tell you, I have never heard of this writer. And his
56:36
book is blowing me away. And his name is Matt Bird, and it's
56:43
the Hidden Tools of Story and it the wild thing is is I think it's
56:49
structured toward fiction writers, not specifically television or film. But he goes so
56:54
deep into television and film that that I look at him and I think,
57:00
all right, if there were a book that I if I had the time
57:04
to go at the level. He goes like, that's a book that I
57:08
wish I had written. What's your name of the book, because it's got
57:12
here, I'm looking it up. I think it's the Hidden Tools of Story.
57:16
Um it is. I'm looking it up right now. Um but Matt
57:23
Bird, Okay, I'm gonna put it in. I just want to put
57:24
the link in the description. Yeah, put it in, link in because
57:29
that book I have referred to people and my clients have been blown away by,
57:36
Like literally, I dogeared so many pages it was crazy. I'm I
57:40
also love Chris Bogler. I also love Michael hag Sure you now I am
57:45
here? Oh, here it is. I am a huge of the Secrets
57:50
of Story. Okay. So it's called the Secrets of Story Innovative Tools for
57:55
perfecting your Fiction. Okay, great, So so yeah, that will give
58:02
you an I'm I'm a very spiritual writer. So the type of authors that
58:08
I'm drawn toward are people who think in the same way. Perfect. Now,
58:14
what lesson took you the longest to learn, Whether in the film industry
58:17
or in life, Probably you know I do think the idea that I'm always
58:27
learning is listen before you speak, like really listen. I think the biggest
58:35
gift and I do practice it every day is really like I think, what
58:40
we tend to do, certainly in the writer's room and meetings and everything else,
58:46
is we tend to like either defend or get ahead of like we're hearing,
58:53
but we're already thinking of our answer that we're not really listening. So
58:59
I would say the thing that I am always I feel like the greatest gift
59:04
we give each other is our time and our attention. So that is something
59:10
I think when I think about my arc of growth in the business, and
59:15
I think of when we first start our careers, we always think, oh
59:21
my god, we have to speak up, we have to say stuff,
59:23
we have to make a point, and you do, but you don't want
59:29
to do it just to do it. You only want to do it when
59:32
you truly have something to say. And one are three of your favorite films
59:37
of all time? I would say my very favorite film of all time is
59:44
The Lives of Others, which is a German film that won Best Foreign Film,
59:52
won the Oscar for Best Foreign Film in two thousand and seven, we'll
59:57
be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.
1:00:06
Um, that is definitely. And then I would say the King's speech
1:00:10
I think was beyond perfect film. Uh. I Also, I would say,
1:00:20
I mean, there are so many that I love that it's ridiculous,
1:00:22
but all I wish there were more. I say that there are so many.
1:00:25
I'm talking over like a ten year period. I wish there were more
1:00:29
in one year. Um, Birdman, I have to say, like Birdman,
1:00:34
I watched. I saw Birdman three or four times. Like for me,
1:00:39
that was that was just brilliant. It's it's an that movie. When
1:00:45
I when I saw that movie, I was watching the screener and I was
1:00:47
like, oh, that's what a director does. Yes, yes, Oh
1:00:52
I forgot because I haven't seen that in so long. Yeah, that's what
1:00:55
a director does. It is it's fascinating when you see something too, like
1:01:00
what I can say, like there was. I remember when I first watched
1:01:04
The hurt Locker and I thought, oh my god, there's something so special
1:01:08
here. But I have to watch it again because I feel like I missed
1:01:13
some of it. And when I watched it again, it was so impactful
1:01:17
to really see just where true brilliance comes from and how we feel story you
1:01:28
know. So yeah, well, I mean she did make one of the
1:01:30
greatest action movies of the nineties, play Break, obviously. Yeah, yeah,
1:01:34
exactly, exactly. Yeah, Hey for gather. Now, where can
1:01:39
people find you online? They can find me very Easyjen Grissanti dot com.
1:01:45
So that's very easy. My email is Jenetjenrissant dot com. Also very easy,
1:01:53
and if you google me, you can find out everything there is to
1:01:58
know. Just like I've mentioned that you should do on every person who you
1:02:01
go to me, I also have to recommend too, Like I don't know,
1:02:06
are you familiar with Film Courage? Yeah? I know them, sure.
1:02:09
So it's interesting because Phil I did an interview for Film Courage that they
1:02:15
divided it into like ten parts, and I have so many people who say,
1:02:20
oh my god, I learned so much through that. So that's that's
1:02:23
if you want to know me and understand my philosophy, that is that dives
1:02:30
pretty deep into it. Great. I'll put some of those in the show
1:02:32
notes as well. Jen. Thank you so much for taking the time.
1:02:36
Congrats on your show, and I love everything you're doing and I'm honored to
1:02:39
be a part of it, and I love that you are getting out the
1:02:44
word out and helping writers. I think there's nothing better. Thank you again
1:02:49
so much. All right, thank you. I want to thank Jen for
1:02:52
being on the show and dropping those major knowledge bombs on the tribe. Thank
1:02:57
you again, Jen. And if you want to get linked anything we discussed
1:03:00
in this episode, including her contact information, her books, her courses,
1:03:04
things like that, just head over to indifilmhuscle dot com forward slash seven O
1:03:08
five and if you have it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot
1:03:14
com, subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps
1:03:17
us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening.
1:03:21
Guys, as always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive,
1:03:23
Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening
1:03:27
to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at Indie film Hustle dot com. That's I
1:03:31
N D I E F I L M hustl dot com.