Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / UX/UI Design With Dennis Lenard | The Christian Reeve Podcast #239

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UX/UI Design With Dennis Lenard | The Christian Reeve Podcast #239 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome back to the Christian Reeve Podcast.
0:03
I have a very fantastic guest for you today.
0:05
But before we get into all of that, just just want to say a
0:09
massive, massive thank you for everybody listening and watching
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0:56
Reeve. Now, are we done with the plug?
0:57
I think we are. Let's introduce our guest.
1:00
Our guest today is a UX design and specialist, AGUI designer
1:04
and CEO of the Creative. They've got this right, Navy,
1:08
UXI agency, UXUI Agency. His name is Dennis Leonard.
1:13
Welcome to the show. How are you doing?
1:15
Hi, I'm good. It's great to be here.
1:17
It's a pleasure to have you here, man.
1:21
UX and UI design is something I have never kind of like
1:26
personally sat down and done myself.
1:28
I am aware of what it is. I worked in the marketing sphere
1:31
at one point in my life, so I would let's say, collaborate
1:35
with people that would work in that sphere.
1:37
So I have like a rough understanding of it.
1:39
But in your own words, how would you define UX and UI?
1:45
Well, I would say, you know, let's come in from the angle
1:48
that everybody knows, which is just the look and feel of
1:52
anything that is digital, let's say.
1:55
And of course most people interact with the website.
1:57
So when you say design, that's what they would think about.
2:02
But there are a lot of other things as well such as medical
2:05
devices or you know, when you're trying to use your online
2:08
banking, that's a more serious system, so to say.
2:11
And most people think about design in terms of this.
2:14
But what it looks like when when I see it, when it comes up on my
2:16
screen, and that's UI design. So that's the user interface
2:20
design, or the visual design if you will.
2:23
But behind that, there is another layer that is somewhat
2:26
more conceptual, because before you can really think about
2:29
what's the shape of a button or what's the colour of a
2:31
particular field, you would have to think about what should even
2:34
be in this particular page, or what should a particular process
2:38
look like so that people can actually get from A to B.
2:42
And that's the process of user experience design and usually
2:46
you would do that with without any colours because you would
2:49
want to get it right without any aesthetics or without any
2:52
distraction. There is always a grey area and
2:55
these terms are abused all the time.
2:58
So there is really, it would be nice for there to be right and
3:02
wrong, but you know what it is like with with new words.
3:07
But that's what we do, we we think about.
3:10
The process someone, someone should go through and then we
3:12
get all the point to the to the aesthetics.
3:16
I've always been interested about the kind of
3:18
experimentation aspect of UX and UI design like obviously I
3:23
suppose in a way you are. I mean you're always testing it.
3:26
You are yourself a user in a sense because you are testing
3:29
out this application and you know eventually, as you said one
3:33
day people for example, might be using it in the medical industry
3:37
and so patients might be using this particular interface.
3:40
So you have to kind of I suppose, look at it from the
3:42
perspective of what is the easiest, most simplest way I can
3:48
design this or it's kind of phrase, the most user friendly
3:52
way to create this. Do you kind of have to get other
3:57
people involved in that process or is it quite easy to just put
4:02
yourself in in the place of the the user if you if you see what
4:06
I'm saying? But The thing is, both of them
4:09
are very, very important. You you wouldn't really be able
4:11
to do it with just one of these methods.
4:15
Obviously, if you ask people what they need and so on, that
4:19
is very helpful. And sometimes you will be
4:22
surprised because they will tell you things that are very
4:24
different from your own perspective or from what you can
4:27
imagine and if you speak to a large number of users.
4:31
You will see that and also you will notice different patterns.
4:34
So you'll come to discover that there's not just one right way
4:37
of doing it or 1 preferred way of doing something.
4:40
There might be a number of these because that's that's one of the
4:44
challenges. You know when you sort of think
4:46
about it for yourself and based on your own intuition, you think
4:50
of 1 possibility and it might be a great one, but the world is so
4:55
much bigger. And so you have to take all of
4:58
that into consideration. But at the same time, if you
5:00
were to just design it by committee and just by what users
5:04
tell you, you would arrive at something that doesn't make any
5:07
sense. So there is a lot of, let's call
5:11
it flair or or experience or whatever it is that you have to
5:14
bring into this to judge what is more important, what is less
5:17
important, what really makes sense from the feedback that you
5:20
get because you have to keep in mind.
5:22
A lot of the work that you would do in this area with feedback
5:26
from users is qualitative. That means you, even though you
5:31
have sort of insights from the research, you haven't collected
5:35
them in a way where you can say, well, yes, this definitely
5:37
represents reality. We're sure of that.
5:39
It's very difficult to achieve that standard even in medical
5:42
research. With your exercise, it would be
5:46
closely impossible to get to that point.
5:49
Let's explore a little bit about the company that you're doing a
5:52
lot of your work with. So walk us through UX Design for
5:55
Medtech. Yeah, that's the thing.
5:59
So we focus on a lot of these serious and difficult systems, I
6:04
would call them or sometimes we just say complex, but what does
6:07
it even mean? But the point is, by now,
6:10
everything that we use as individuals, as companies,
6:13
organizations, governments and so on has a digital component to
6:16
it. I mean, I think we've long
6:19
passed that point. And so now we have to rely on
6:22
these systems. But there's been such a rapid
6:25
progress, there's never been really time to think about the
6:27
user experience of these things. So we have systems that on a
6:31
software level or hardware level sort of work more or less, let's
6:37
say it's OK. A lot of people have to
6:40
sacrifice their lives to keep it going at this very minimum
6:43
level, but it is what it is. It's OK, however.
6:46
This user experience level hasn't really been finished.
6:50
It has been perhaps with anything that's marketing
6:54
because that's where all the money goes or some of these
6:57
let's say consumer oriented applications that are very
7:00
popular because there there was time and there were resources to
7:04
improve that. But in the critical sectors,
7:08
actually there hasn't been much movement and so that's what we
7:13
focus on. And we've been doing that for
7:17
almost 15 years now. We were actually one of the
7:20
first companies to focus on usability for these digital
7:25
systems. Particularly interesting in the
7:28
medical industry because I mean, I have a little bit of
7:31
experience in this area actually.
7:32
There was a company that I worked for about a year ago now
7:37
and it was like the one and only sales role I was ever involved
7:41
in, but it happened to be for a medical company.
7:44
And so I saw their interfaces and the thing different things
7:48
they were using. And I mean I can't speak for
7:51
other countries, but I know here here in the UK we've got quite a
7:54
I'm going to put this archaic system for for medical
8:01
appointments and such. We are very, very slowly
8:04
migrating over to a system where you know, you would arrange
8:08
appointments via an app, something like that.
8:10
But we still have the classic, and I don't know who decided
8:14
that this process was a good process, Whoever created this,
8:18
you suck. But the idea of bringing up a
8:22
doctor surgery at 9:00 AM and essentially just rushing and
8:25
hoping that you'll get an appointment that's still in 2023
8:29
an actual the main way that we arrange appointments in in the
8:33
UK for medical situations. However, increasingly we are
8:40
seeing the use of these interfaces and systems these
8:44
apps and and I mean they are getting better.
8:46
I've I've seen some, some companies who who've made them
8:50
really, really easy to use and I think a lot of the time you have
8:53
to think about who. Obviously it's an A lot of the
8:57
things I'm going to say today are like really stating the
9:00
obvious, but I think it's important because at the end of
9:03
the day you like I said before you want it to be as simple as
9:07
possible, right? Less is more even because your
9:11
everyday user, especially let's say like a user that's in 60s
9:16
seventies right. They don't want a lot of like
9:19
hassle and and stuff. They just want something that's
9:21
very simple like OK, I put this information in, I view, let's
9:26
say an appointment list, I choose that and then it's done
9:29
like you know, as fewer steps as possible, quite simple, easy to
9:34
read, etcetera, Right. These are a lot of the
9:37
considerations I would say from my experience would be the the
9:43
things you would look out for. But since you are the expert, I
9:47
want to kind of understand from your perspective what do you
9:49
think of the fundamentals of good UXUI design?
9:55
Before I get to that, you you reminded me of of two things
10:00
actually, and they're very relevant in the medical field
10:02
because the idea of. The user playing a role or sort
10:07
of let's consider whether people actually matter in this whole
10:11
thing. That's something that actually
10:14
started in the medical field. There is a thing that used to be
10:16
called human factors in this sector and that was people
10:21
thinking about medical device and considering first of all
10:24
whether it is safe and that started in the 50s, in the 60s,
10:28
so a very, very long time ago and.
10:32
We have ISO standards that came out of that.
10:34
So you know, very serious stuff and if you create a medical
10:38
device you have to have it certified that it passes all the
10:42
requirements for human factors and so on.
10:45
So that was a long time before the Internet, before the idea of
10:48
user friendliness and so on. But despite this medical devices
10:54
are still horrible. Their their user experience is.
10:57
I mean it's nothing I would say. So it's, it's, I think this is
11:02
interesting, the fact that it started very early, but it
11:04
didn't go anywhere. And I think one of the reasons
11:07
for this is that there wasn't really an ambition with that.
11:12
They just said let's make it barely safe or you know,
11:16
companies then say, OK, well if you have to make it barely safe,
11:19
we actually just have to make it barely pass certification.
11:21
It doesn't have to be actually safe.
11:24
It's just we need to be able to put a stamp on it.
11:26
That's all we want. So it didn't go further than
11:29
that and of course now. Because everything is changing
11:32
and the medical sector is also changing.
11:34
And people feel the user interface and then they say
11:41
something like, let's make it simple, it's it's obvious,
11:44
everybody knows it, let's do it. But then you actually start
11:47
doing it. What happens is it turns out to
11:50
be very, very difficult and frustrating.
11:53
And inpredictable and So what the business does in that case
11:56
is it compromises or in organizations particularly
11:59
larger organizations are great at making compromises and and
12:03
basically lying to each other in the project team that it's good,
12:06
it's good enough. We didn't have a choice.
12:08
We made it bad. But it's I don't know.
12:11
So this happens every day, every day, every day, every day.
12:13
And then you end up with something like you have to call
12:15
the doctor in the morning at 8:00 AM because that's the best
12:19
people who are able to do and so.
12:20
I think in this field in particular, if and and this is
12:24
particularly true of these complex or difficult systems
12:27
that involve a lot of people, you have to sort of dare to, you
12:34
know, sort of go outside the usual process or or outside the
12:40
usual just shoulder shaking and really try to create a good
12:44
product. I think that's also why.
12:46
When Apple first came out with something that was really
12:50
interesting and you could see that they made a huge effort,
12:52
everybody was surprised and it became something that's
12:55
inspirational, perhaps because they broke out of this mode.
12:59
But still today it's very difficult to break out of that
13:02
mode. And so that's what I would it's
13:05
difficult to say what is great UX.
13:08
I mean, you could formulate a lot of principles, but they
13:12
don't mean anything. If there's nothing, there's
13:16
nothing substantive to it because the principles always
13:19
lead to something else in practice, and the thing that
13:22
makes it be user friendly is that process where you translate
13:25
the principle into something that is exactly what users need
13:29
in this particular situation. That's why when you yeah, with
13:33
these systems, you have to understand what people truly do
13:37
with the systems because it's going to be very different from
13:39
what you intend them to do. And that's not wrong.
13:42
You just have to work it into your process.
13:45
Yeah, this is a solid point actually, because, I mean,
13:48
you're saying essentially like two things there, like 1 if it's
13:51
written on paper. In practicality it looks very
13:54
different. And secondly, and perhaps more
13:57
importantly, how the end user actually interacts with it,
14:02
because sometimes it's unpredictable, isn't it?
14:04
Like you might program it a certain way and then the user
14:08
just uses it in a totally different way that you hadn't
14:10
anticipated, and perhaps you don't want them to use it in
14:13
that way, but they are. And now you're like, hmm, OK,
14:16
well, we can either choose to work around this or forcibly
14:20
remove the ability to interact with it this way, But either
14:24
way, it's going to create more work and it may or may not be a
14:29
good thing. I mean I don't know it's but the
14:32
best example I can give which OK it's not related to medical care
14:36
but it's I've always found it quite interesting as as like a a
14:41
company that like pretty much always changes their the UXUI
14:45
design. So Facebook, I feel, is a
14:48
really, really good example because I I I've lost count of
14:53
how many times they've changed the look and the feel and the
14:58
vibe of the app and everything. And I mean, you see it a lot
15:01
with Instagram. They'll just throw things
15:04
randomly in different parts of the screen.
15:07
And I know that they're just doing it to test things out and
15:09
see, OK, maybe it's better here, maybe it's better here, you
15:12
know? Or maybe they are trying to
15:14
actively push certain things, like when they released their
15:16
Reels product, they were obviously doing that.
15:19
But with Facebook, I mean, I don't know, it's a pretty clear
15:23
system. It's this endless scrolling
15:27
cesspit and you know you're you're you interact with it and
15:31
that's pretty much all you need. I mean, yes, there are many
15:34
other things you can do with it, but that's kind of the the be a
15:37
window of of that particular app And there's been certain designs
15:42
they've had over the years that I I was like, OK, this is good.
15:45
I like this, maybe I even prefer this.
15:47
And then there are others where you know you log into the app
15:50
and it looks totally different and they don't warn you, they
15:53
just change it one day and and now it's perhaps not usable or
15:59
it's just really frustrating like I the problem I often find,
16:03
and I know this is by design and it's really infuriating is these
16:07
days with their settings it's really difficult to find certain
16:13
things like let's say in the privacy settings area or
16:17
anything you want to change. If you want to delete your
16:20
Facebook for example, that's near impossible.
16:25
A lot of time I have to go on Google and like just find out
16:28
like a step by step process of how to do that because it's not
16:32
clear within their app. And when I said, Doug, it's done
16:37
by design, it's because, yeah, they don't want you to delete it
16:39
or they don't want you to do a certain thing or they want to
16:42
make it as difficult as possible to do that to prevent you so
16:46
that you'll probably just get fed up and won't bother doing
16:49
it. And I don't know, I find that
16:52
really infuriating, but I understand why they do it.
16:55
And I think it goes back to your point previously about how you
17:01
can design all these different things.
17:03
But ultimately, there will be business decisions that will
17:07
override that. So it could be this is how much
17:12
we're willing to invest in this, or this is what we're willing to
17:16
put into this particular app. But you know, you might have
17:19
great ideas. Your team might have brilliant,
17:22
excellent ideas that might completely transform the
17:24
product. But it all comes down to whether
17:27
or not the top heads want it that way.
17:32
Yeah, that's. I mean, I have a lot of empathy
17:35
for this is all our budget or even this is not important to
17:42
us. Usability is not important or
17:43
not that important. I accept that.
17:45
That's fine. Perhaps it will be more
17:49
important eventually, or who knows?
17:51
What I don't appreciate at all is of course all these evil
17:55
design methods where you're trying to to manipulate people
17:59
or to use their weaknesses against them.
18:02
And I think we see a lot of this in particular with these very
18:09
large platforms that we spend a lot of time on and these
18:13
platforms that aren't really. That don't provide much value to
18:17
people so they they have to resort to these kinds of tricks
18:23
and they are horrible. I sometimes I'm being asked by
18:26
designers who start out what should I do if I'm being asked
18:29
to do something evil. My response is look for a
18:31
different job because it's not going to change.
18:34
You're not going to change anyone's mind.
18:36
I mean, you can try and you should, but it's not going to
18:39
work out and so you should go work for someone who has a
18:43
something positive to offer and. The good news is that most
18:46
businesses, I think, have something positive to offer and
18:49
they don't bother with these evil patterns, but they don't
18:53
make the headlines. And you know, they're not social
18:55
media companies, let's put it that way.
18:59
One thing that I, I find I suppose, strange about it is
19:04
that I feel like if you, let's say your point earlier about how
19:09
potentially certain companies might just not care, they might
19:12
not prioritize that. As you know, maybe, maybe it's
19:16
OK. This is how much we need to make
19:17
for this year. We want to keep these costs low.
19:19
So just make this in this way and that's fine.
19:23
But then let's say you do that and your app or your interface
19:28
on your website is just completely unusable to the point
19:31
where it gets attention online and people are talking about it
19:35
but in a negative manner. And they're just saying things
19:38
like, well, we don't want to use this system because it's not
19:41
usable. It's terrible.
19:42
We're going to go elsewhere. This is not the type of
19:44
attention you want. Some people, marketing
19:48
salespeople, might say, well, any attention has good
19:50
attention. I thoroughly disagree with that.
19:54
Because if if there's enough of it, you know, the tide can turn
19:58
and suddenly people aren't using your product, and then that's
20:00
very problematic from a business standpoint.
20:03
And I felt like a lot of the time, if the decision is just,
20:08
oh, we're just not willing to change this thing.
20:11
Long term, it'd make more sense to just put the money in, fix
20:15
the issues and then move forward with it, you know that.
20:18
That's something I've never quite understood is, is this
20:21
kind of commitment to short term gain over long term gain.
20:26
Because in the end, it's ultimately going to affect you
20:29
much more if you just don't do it.
20:32
You know what I'm saying, right? Well, I I think there's two ways
20:37
in which it affects you negatively.
20:39
One is that. You're slowly losing market
20:41
share and it is probably going to be slow.
20:44
And at first you're thinking, well, it's fine.
20:45
It's just a little, it's just a little.
20:47
But you know, seven years later, you will come to a point where
20:51
you're saying, oh, now we don't have much market share, we don't
20:54
have a lot of revenue. It's very difficult to make this
20:56
leap forward now because we don't have the revenue.
20:58
So we're stuck in a difficult position.
21:02
But the other thing is you're missing out on a lot of
21:04
potential. A typical client who comes to us
21:07
is a business. Who say, look, we've had this
21:10
software for 15 years, 20 years, something.
21:13
So you know, really the early days of software, it's it's
21:16
brilliant. It's really the strongest it can
21:18
be in it's niche, but because it is so powerful and complicated,
21:24
it can do so much and it is so old, people are now having a
21:27
difficult time starting to use it and we have those old power
21:32
users who are great. But the younger people, and you
21:36
know, young, could mean 40 years old, they they don't bother
21:40
because there's competition. It cannot do as much as we can,
21:43
but it's a lot easier to use. And you know what people are
21:46
like. They want to solve the issue
21:48
today or tomorrow or at least this week, but not longer than
21:53
that. And you know, we have clients
21:54
who have to have a. If someone starts to use the
21:58
software, they. Group these people together.
22:00
They meet somewhere, I don't know, in Vienna or in Canada or
22:03
somewhere, and they have a week long training session.
22:06
And then after that training session, the feeling isn't oh
22:09
great, now I know how to use this, it's what did I do wrong,
22:13
Why am I in this situation Now I have to actually use it and
22:16
there's no more support because the event has ended.
22:19
So we we we transform it from that point and to something
22:21
where people can learn it by themselves in a matter of hours.
22:26
And I think is that completely transforms a business because
22:30
it's you can grow many, many fold from that position there.
22:33
There's an accounting software in the Uki mean it's in many
22:37
countries, but we know it well in the UK it's called zero.
22:41
And they have an interface where if you look at it, it's not
22:44
aesthetic, it looks horrible actually.
22:46
But if you give it, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes.
22:51
You will figure it out and from then on you will be able to to
22:53
do this accounting chore quite easily.
22:57
And since they've done that they've they've had a number of
23:00
tries to nail the user experience and they figure this
23:03
thing out. Their business has exploded in a
23:06
positive way and that happens to to everyone who figures out
23:10
something that's great in terms of user experience, especially
23:14
if they also have the back end part because then they are, then
23:17
they are the the leader and it's all a question of.
23:20
What price do we want this to sell this?
23:22
Do we want to sell it at the high price to only take the top
23:25
market? Do you, do you want to reduce
23:27
the price to also get the mid market?
23:28
It's really our decision because we have the best product and
23:31
everybody wants it. Yeah, No, I mean spot on with
23:36
that. And I I think it a lot of the
23:39
time in those instances as well it's it's much more important to
23:42
have a a product, there's more you know has is easy to use
23:48
versus like how it looks and and feels like yeah it is going to
23:51
be a big put off if it looks just terrible.
23:54
But ultimately as you said like particularly people who are
23:57
computer experts are going to just play around with it,
24:00
interact with it and find the easiest way to use it.
24:03
And then that's ultimately going to be the the focal point, the
24:07
thing that draw draws people in. So yeah, I couldn't do more on
24:10
that one. One other question I I quickly
24:13
wanted to ask you is you are a GUI designer as well.
24:18
Can you explain briefly what that's about?
24:22
South GUI stands for Graphical User Interface, which is
24:25
actually just another way of saying user interface but in
24:30
this field of devices. So anything that it could be a
24:34
medical device, it could be industrial machinery, it could
24:37
be. Perhaps a welding machine and so
24:41
on. People usually call that the
24:44
GUI. That's sort of the old way of
24:46
calling it, but it's just the user interface.
24:50
Yeah. The more, you know, thank you.
24:53
One thing that you're involved with quite heavily now is AI.
24:57
And well, I mean AI is just taking over the world really at
25:01
this point. So I I find this out especially
25:04
with with my show as well. Increasingly over the past six
25:08
months I've been asking more and more people about AI because it
25:12
just directly effects everything and it's kind of impossible to
25:15
ignore it. But if we're talking computers,
25:17
it's it's going to be there in some shape or form.
25:20
So my question to you is how is AI either improving or assisting
25:25
with UXUI design? Currently.
25:31
It cannot do much in this field. I'm sure it will change, but
25:37
kindly sort of what it does is, and I have a feeling that that's
25:41
true for most applications, is that it comes out with something
25:44
that when you first look at it, you're surprised and you're
25:46
thinking, oh, this looks like the real thing.
25:49
But then if you spend another 5 or 10 seconds, you realize that
25:52
it's sort of mediocre. And it doesn't really apply to
25:56
the reality either, because it doesn't.
25:58
Truly understand the reality. So, so we're not yet at that
26:01
point where you can just generate a user interface with
26:04
an AI. But what I can imagine is that
26:09
sometime in the near future, whether that's years or or a lot
26:11
longer than that, it might be able to spit out different parts
26:16
of user interfaces, which would be very helpful because then you
26:20
could actually start to use those outputs to.
26:24
Just play around with them and sort of get a sense of where
26:27
things could be going, because kindly we do that manually and
26:30
it takes a lot of time. What we're trying to figure out
26:33
is a system that uses computer vision to measure the visual
26:38
complexity of an interface. Because humans, they can process
26:44
a lot of information, but complexity's very challenging
26:48
for them and it's very easy to be overwhelmed.
26:52
And you might not really notice that you're overwhelmed and that
26:55
you're not really processing all the information, but you
26:58
probably are. That can then lead to mistakes.
27:00
Or you know you you get tired while using a product and so on.
27:04
And therefore we want to create you said it yourself and a
27:07
simple user interface. But the question is what is
27:10
simple? Of course, if you have just,
27:12
let's say, a user interface with an image and the button, that is
27:15
a lot simpler than the entirety of Facebook.
27:18
So it's easy to just use your intuition to to measure that, so
27:21
to say. But when you have designs that
27:24
are somewhat similar, it's very difficult to say just by looking
27:27
at it which one is more complicated and you cannot do
27:32
that in a reliable and objective manner.
27:33
So we we're trying to create a measurement tool that can figure
27:37
it out and we're working on it. We're hopeful that one day we'll
27:40
really have something that is a true measurement tool but not
27:43
there yet because it's it's very difficult to measure anything.
27:49
Because when you really want to measure something in an
27:51
objective manner, you would want to be able to say that this
27:54
corresponds to something in reality.
27:56
Like with measuring length, we have millimetres, we have metres
28:00
and so on. That's great.
28:01
We're lucky to have them with something that's obscure, saying
28:06
visual complexity of the user interface.
28:10
It's more difficult to get to that point, but that's another
28:13
way of applying. AII think we'll also be able to
28:17
use AI to measure what users are doing within these systems.
28:23
We already have statistics and analytics, but they don't really
28:27
say that much. We also have screen recordings
28:30
where you can actually watch PL. users on a website or whatever
28:34
system it is do what they do. Of course it's anonymized
28:37
because it doesn't really matter who that is, but you would still
28:40
have to review all of these manually.
28:43
So I can imagine an AI that can. Tell you something, the
28:47
difficulty is always in what does that something mean.
28:53
And and I think that's that's where we have a limitation with
28:57
AI because we we happen to be able to create AI systems that
29:03
give us a result. We don't really know how, we
29:06
just look at the result and then still the question is what does
29:09
it mean? It's like, I think a lot of
29:11
people have played with ChatGPT. And it creates a lot of texts.
29:15
But the question is always what does this mean?
29:18
Because you're telling me something.
29:20
But is it true? Is it not?
29:21
Is it the best answer or not? Is it complete?
29:24
Is it incomplete? Is it?
29:25
Take that into account and we don't yet know.
29:30
Yeah. The problem I'm seeing in a lot
29:32
of industries right now is that it's being earmarked as a
29:35
replacement as opposed to, you know, an assisted tool, which I
29:44
mean, AI don't know why you would want to replace what
29:48
humans do. I mean, certainly there's many
29:51
things that can be used to improve.
29:54
I mean, for example, we take something very basic, like just
29:57
a data entry role, right, where you just have to input a lot of
30:01
information. Inevitably, humans going to make
30:03
mistakes because you know, we're not, we're not perfect.
30:08
You know anyone who's ever sat down and done data entry in
30:10
their life, we'll know. You know after about 5 hours
30:14
your mind tends to push. You just don't want to do it
30:17
anymore. And of course you're going to
30:18
miss things. A computer in theory, will never
30:21
ever miss anything unless it is, I don't know, corrupted in some
30:25
shape or form. Therefore, it's kind of a no
30:27
brainer that you know, it would be used in that field.
30:31
Rather bizarrely, right now the focus seems to be more on the
30:35
creative industries, which I can see the positives there, but
30:39
also I can see many, many, many negatives and the context of the
30:43
conversation that we're having right now.
30:46
Really it would be best used as as a administrative tool that
30:51
can help to kind of speed things up.
30:53
But as you mentioned before, it's sorry to put it like this,
30:57
but it's kind of just like a toy really at this point.
31:00
And we're just kind of throwing it around, seeing what it can
31:02
do. And it's like, OK, that's nice.
31:03
But like let's just get back to what you know, how we know it
31:06
works. But the reality is within the
31:09
next five years or perhaps even sooner than that, it will start
31:14
rapidly changing certain aspects of these things and probably
31:18
within UXUI design as well. But it's just we're not quite
31:22
there yet with that, but we are in other areas.
31:26
You know you use ChatGPT as an example.
31:30
And the problem with that is obviously it's just an
31:32
experimental thing that is crawling with information that's
31:37
a few years out of date at this point.
31:39
But the developments of that system and what it's capable of
31:44
doing now versus say six months ago are huge.
31:48
And I think a lot of people are sort of looking at that and how
31:51
much improvement and how things have rapidly changed and they're
31:58
sort of applying that to other fields and going, OK, there's
32:01
there's potential here. This is what we could do
32:03
potentially with this. But again, it's all speculation
32:06
at this point, but. Yeah, I don't know.
32:09
It's sorry. Go on, I'll go.
32:11
On and I was, I was just going to say that you know, AI is
32:16
great with patterns. I mean that's essentially what
32:21
it does so far. It doesn't do anything else.
32:24
If you want to sort of make a bold statement, but the point is
32:28
the things you can do with patterns are a detect them.
32:32
And I I think AI is fabulous with that.
32:34
And there are many applications that need just that.
32:39
And I think there AI is truly transformative.
32:42
For example, in the medical industry with certain illnesses,
32:47
you have to cultivate cells, you have to create a cell culture.
32:52
To see what comes out of that, and somebody has to look at that
32:54
under a microscope to figure out is it this or is it that you
32:59
cannot see with your bare eyes? Of course.
33:01
However, AI can actually do that.
33:04
It can just look at the whole cell culture without really
33:08
zooming into a microscopic level.
33:10
And just it figures out the pattern and says this is that
33:13
kind of culture and it's a lot more accurate than the whole
33:15
process of looking at it under Microsoft microscope and so on.
33:19
So that's pattern recognition. I think there it really helps
33:21
because it's almost free and so that that's a huge benefit.
33:28
The other thing you might want to do with a pattern is say I
33:32
have this pattern, I want you to generate more stuff based on
33:35
this pattern. Which sometimes is very useful,
33:39
but I think where it's sort of going to bite back is where.
33:44
Because we're such lazy animals, we'll use it to generate a lot
33:49
of things where we shouldn't use a particular pattern, but it's
33:52
just easier to rely on a pattern on a recipe, and so everybody
33:55
will do the same thing. And when everybody does the same
34:00
thing and uses the same pattern, the value of the pattern
34:02
degrades. Quickly, I think that's where
34:04
when AI will get to a point where we'll be really good at
34:08
generating things based on a pattern, so where the output is
34:11
actually going to be the right thing, so to say.
34:15
I think there's going to be a lot of enthusiasm.
34:16
And three months later we realize everywhere, everything
34:18
is the same now. And because it's the same, it's
34:21
not what we need. And every time we've copied this
34:23
pattern, it got degraded a little bit, a little bit.
34:26
It got dumbed down, It got dumbed down and now.
34:29
It doesn't do anything anymore. It's so sort of like with
34:31
vegetables, you know, we have a lot of vegetables now it's you
34:34
have avocados and everything all day round.
34:38
They're great, but you cannot, you have to eat probably 4 kilos
34:41
of that vegetable compared to the same amount of nutrition you
34:45
would get from let's say, the same tomato but grown in in more
34:48
organic conditions. Because it's just you buy the
34:52
shape of it. You buy the thing that is easy
34:54
to replicate, but you don't really buy the value of it
34:56
because that comes out of. The whole process of engaging
34:59
with it, that's also sort of the same principle that I mentioned
35:03
before with UX, where I was saying, well, you have general
35:07
statements about UX, but where the value comes from is where
35:09
you adapt those to the actual use case.
35:12
And I think that's something that AI is not going to be able
35:15
to do very soon because it requires the human touch.
35:18
If for humans it's difficult. I mean, it's not like we just
35:21
you just have to be human and you're going to do it, No.
35:24
You have to be a human who suffers and who goes through a
35:26
lot of pain for many months to figure out what the real thing
35:30
is that was needed, and then you're going to offer value.
35:33
So that's where AI won't be able to replace that.
35:36
But if it can help us, and I think it will help us with
35:41
limited tasks, that's great, because we'll be hopefully able
35:44
to turn that into something good.
35:46
And some will use that to provide more added value, others
35:49
will just use it to hide that they don't have any kind of
35:52
value. That's.
35:53
That's how it always goes, isn't it?
35:56
Yeah, you could see it as well. Like, I mean on a very
35:59
rudimentary level in the marketing industry, there's
36:02
already people that are, you know, creating articles purely
36:07
using ChatGPT or you know, there's YouTube videos being
36:11
created now that are completely AI generated.
36:14
And you can tell, you can tell because they're all terrible and
36:19
very basic and there's just no sold to them.
36:24
There's no, it's just say me, say me, say me.
36:27
Very, very basic stuff. But I want to just briefly touch
36:32
on what you said there is towards the end there, which I
36:34
think is solid, used as a kind of administrative tool in
36:40
addition to the efforts of the human being.
36:43
It can be brilliant, amazing even.
36:46
You know like to use a kind of a nerdy reference here.
36:48
Like I always look at it like Tony Stark in in the Iron Man
36:53
movies with his user interface system and and you know like
36:57
he's he he's the creator still he's in control but he's
37:01
throwing ideas and he's like, OK well let's try this scenario and
37:06
and the computer makes the model for him and then he looks at it
37:09
and he's like OK, we'll be tweet this, tweet this.
37:11
That would be perfect, That kind of a system where it's like the
37:16
merging of human and AI together, creating things.
37:21
Right now we're in a very kind of scary situation where it's
37:25
like AI, it's not doing it, but it's threatening to change and
37:32
replace everything so that humans just don't need to do
37:36
anything, which, I don't know. I think for many of us that's
37:40
problematic because it's, yeah, it's not all just about, you
37:45
know, trying to make life easier.
37:46
It's also like, you know, humans, we like to build, we
37:50
like to create things, We like to tweak, work on things.
37:52
I mean, that's kind of what UXUIUI is all about really.
37:55
When when you break it down, it's playing with the system and
37:59
and trying to kind of isolate what's good about it, what's bad
38:02
about it, what's the best way that this can be used, you know,
38:08
and improved for the future. And one of the key things you
38:11
mentioned there, which I think is a really, really amazing
38:13
point as well, is that, yeah, AI can't really look at it from a
38:18
human perspective and go, well, these are all the problems
38:20
because it's not the human. It's not there's things it's
38:23
going to miss because it's going to throw what it thinks is the
38:27
most logical solution to the problem.
38:28
But that doesn't always equate to what the user actually wants.
38:33
Sometimes there's things that you discover by surprise.
38:37
People prefer maybe even. I mean, I've seen this before
38:40
with certain apps as well. There's sometimes something can
38:44
be much more complex that people prefer it that way for whatever
38:48
reason, because it's it just. I don't know.
38:51
Just, well, more user friendly maybe.
38:53
I don't know. It's it's it's a strange one,
38:56
but you know, human beings are strange really.
38:59
Like the way we interact with things and what we prefer and
39:01
what we don't prefer and everything.
39:03
It's it's interesting, it's interesting stuff.
39:08
One question I wanted to ask you, throughout everything that
39:11
you've kind of done in your career, what would you say has
39:14
been the kind of biggest challenge that you've faced and
39:18
how did you overcome this challenge?
39:22
Well, I I suppose the biggest ones I haven't overcome, but I
39:26
might not. I might never be able to, but I
39:30
I I think if you if you look at it or for a very long
39:34
perspective of time. The biggest challenge is of
39:38
course to to persist, I think, because the most valuable things
39:47
require a level of persistence that is definitely out of your
39:50
comfort zone. But I was going to say it's
39:53
Inhuman, but who knows what that means.
39:55
But the the point is, you know, everything that's worth
39:57
attaining requires such a level of effort that it it feels like
40:02
maybe it's not really worth it. So where you doubt that, I think
40:05
that's the the magic area. But there's no.
40:08
Maybe you get used to it, but then you just you become able to
40:12
do even bigger things, let's say.
40:14
So you're you're always faced against them and so there is no
40:17
magic wand and every time you get to that place it's
40:21
difficult. And I think always keeping at
40:24
that is the big challenge. But it also comes with sort of
40:31
the other side of the coin where if you've overcome a challenge
40:35
that feels great and because you've made such a huge effort,
40:38
you're thinking, oh, you know what, I like this comfort now.
40:42
I don't want anything else. I don't want those emotions I
40:45
had before. And and I think that's something
40:49
that I'm still struggling with. And I'm sure I will.
40:52
I mean all all the old people I know who I admire and who I see
40:56
doing great things and who who look like they've overcome this,
40:59
they're still still struggling with it.
41:01
When they're honest, they say that.
41:02
So I don't have high expectations, but that's that's
41:09
the big hurdle. I think what changes however is
41:14
that you're struggling with different kind of discomfort.
41:18
I mean what what makes me feel uncomfortable now is probably
41:22
100 times bigger than what made me feel uncomfortable 10 years
41:25
ago. So let's say the type of
41:28
challenge or the size of challenge you can deal with
41:31
evolves. So in that way, there is
41:33
progress, but you never it's never going to be feel good.
41:37
It's never going to to feel good if you're doing useful things,
41:41
let's say. Yeah, this is something I've
41:44
been thinking about a lot over the past year, and I remember
41:48
reading something recently that connects with what you said
41:52
quite, quite well. This idea that, like whatever
41:55
challenges you're facing right now in life, be at work,
41:59
personal, whatever they may be, you will be able to deal with
42:04
them. There's never a challenge you
42:05
can't overcome. It's just that you most likely
42:09
will have to evolve and as you said, go out of your comfort
42:11
zone in order to overcome that challenge.
42:15
And a lot of the time that's a hard, difficult process,
42:19
uncomfortable, scary. But then you come out the other
42:23
side of it and then you realise like, wow, that was, you know,
42:28
it felt difficult. It was difficult, but then I got
42:30
through it. Imagine what else I could do and
42:32
like that. Mindset I feel is like very
42:35
powerful to be in because it's like if you can stay in that
42:41
Sky's the limit as far as what you can achieve.
42:43
Then it becomes more about OK time versus resources versus you
42:51
know the, the and these are things that again can be
42:53
overcome. Like I I look at things a lot
42:55
like that now. It's never a case of can I do
42:58
it, It's well, when can I do it? What what do I need to do it
43:02
like? Yeah, that's a powerful, yeah.
43:06
And I think the challenge is that you always have to give up
43:11
something. Sometimes you have to give up a
43:13
lot of things or even everything.
43:15
Everything, let's let's call it everything.
43:20
And that is always very, very uncomfortable.
43:22
But I think or something that I have discovered makes a
43:25
difference, is when you learn about meta emotions.
43:30
Meta emotions are emotions that you have about your own
43:34
emotions. So for example, let's say you
43:41
have to go to a meeting and you you're nervous.
43:48
You realize that you're nervous, you're thinking, oh, and on top
43:52
of what had me worry before, now I'm also nervous.
43:56
That makes me very nervous, and I'm always very nervous.
44:01
So that makes me very angry because I don't want to be a
44:04
weak person who's always very angry.
44:07
And because I'm now angry, it means I'm not a person who's in
44:10
control of the emotions. So now I'm even depressed.
44:13
So you have no, it all started with a little thing, but it got
44:16
amplified because all the emotions you had about your own
44:19
emotions and it's it's natural because that's how we are as
44:22
human beings. But I think becoming aware of
44:25
that, and maybe even practicing to notice notice these patterns
44:30
helps a lot. And so hopefully this helps you
44:32
just stay nervous or just be generally a little bit anxious
44:35
without going all the way to the point where it becomes where it
44:40
feels exists like an existential threat or where it's truly
44:43
hurting you. I never realized there was a
44:45
word for. Or a particular way to describe
44:50
this sensation, Because I think we've definitely, we've
44:52
definitely all experienced this. I know I do often.
44:55
I don't realise there's a specific term for it.
44:59
Men or emotions, learning something new every day.
45:01
Thank you for that. A couple of final questions for
45:04
you to kind of like round things off.
45:06
These are questions I ask every guest, completely unrelated to
45:09
today's conversations. What's the biggest mistake
45:13
you've learned? Sorry.
45:14
What's the biggest mistake you've made?
45:16
That you learned a valuable lesson from Yeah, I think it's a
45:28
mistake I keep making, but it's sometimes it's a mistake to be
45:34
patient. Sometimes you try something and
45:38
you want it to work and that clouds your judgment.
45:42
So you give it a lot of time or resources or whatever it is
45:47
until you actually get to the point where you're saying, no,
45:49
this is, this doesn't work. I'm going to stop this, whatever
45:51
it is. I think that's a trap that I
45:56
fall into quite often. I think most people do from what
46:00
I see, and that costs a lot of time and energy because it's
46:03
such a recurring trap. It, you know, eats away a lot of
46:06
your your energy and your time, which is very limited.
46:10
And I've learned from this and I'm better at it, but I'm still
46:13
practicing because. And I think that I think that
46:18
the horrible thing is that it feels to me at least as if this
46:21
is getting more difficult. Actually, the challenge is
46:24
becoming bigger because the world is becoming so much more
46:28
complicated and confusing. And then it's difficult to say
46:32
this is bad, this doesn't work. It doesn't deliver the results
46:37
because you can always sort of find an excuse for it.
46:39
But also it's difficult to to really measure it and to say I
46:42
I'm, I can be sure that it's bad.
46:44
So I'm going to stop it. But it also kind of brings a
46:51
difficult question to ask oneself as well.
46:54
It's like now I'll preface this by saying like I don't believe
46:59
in giving up. Like overall, you know, like I
47:04
think you should always try to pursue things and not let.
47:09
Life to tell you or whatever. However, I will add to this,
47:14
there are certain points in life where you have to kind of draw a
47:17
line under things and realise OK, this thing is not working.
47:21
And as you said, you're you're spending time and resources on
47:23
that thing. You have to know where to kind
47:28
of draw the line under that and that can be a difficult
47:31
conversation to have with oneself.
47:33
Like where where do I call it quits on this particular thing?
47:38
Am I ready to do that? Especially if you've spent the
47:41
better part of several years on that thing that can be crushing.
47:45
But then I suppose a good, a good.
47:48
Another question to ask yourself on top of that is, well, how
47:52
much more time do I want to waste on something that may
47:55
never work? And when you start looking at it
47:58
like that, like it because that's the thing like it's you
48:01
can turn negatives into positives.
48:03
It's like, OK, well this thing didn't work, but then maybe
48:06
that's opening the door for the thing that will work, you know,
48:10
as the way I try to look at it. And yeah, granted, maybe it is
48:14
not completely grounded in realism, but that positivity
48:18
leads to motivation, leads to enthusiasm and ultimately will
48:21
lead to success if you keep pushing.
48:25
But you know, it's very easy, as you said, to fall into that trap
48:29
of of like something not working.
48:30
You keep pushing. You keep pushing, you keep
48:32
pushing. And I think that usually
48:38
happens, for example, when you feel like that's the only thing
48:43
or the only method that could work.
48:45
And so you're thinking, if not this, then what?
48:50
There's no alternative? Well, it always looks like
48:54
there's no alternative. Maybe there isn't.
48:55
Then you should be something entirely different.
48:57
But then there's also that bias where it seems like other people
49:03
doing that thing or that method or whatever it is like it works
49:07
for them because we have such a deceiving culture where
49:10
everything is fake. And then you also want and so
49:14
you're thinking, well, if everybody else has this and it
49:16
works for them, it doesn't work for me.
49:18
All I have to do is keep doing this.
49:20
But I think this is the biggest trap.
49:23
But you you preface this rightly with saying, well, you shouldn't
49:27
just give up everything that is worth having requires a lot of
49:30
persistence. But I think a good technique
49:33
here is to sort of study whether which course of action feels
49:38
better and easier. And because sometimes, you know,
49:43
just sticking with something that you're used to, even if
49:45
it's horrible, is easier. And often times the thing that
49:49
feels less nauseating and you know, more difficult and so on
49:54
might be better. But if if you're giving
49:56
something up for something that's more difficult, well then
50:00
you're not seeking, you know, a comfort zone.
50:03
You're getting out of your comfort zone.
50:05
So it's not that you're giving up on something, you're actually
50:10
attempting to do something that might be even more difficult.
50:12
So, so that that's, I think, how you can avoid giving up just for
50:17
pleasure or for the sake of having a little bit of peace,
50:23
but I think that's the biggest challenge.
50:25
And that's that's amazing as well.
50:26
When you really look at it, if you've got a thing that's not
50:28
working out and then you go for something bigger than that, I
50:31
mean, and then you succeed. I mean that almost negates the
50:35
issue you had previously. It's that, well, who cares?
50:38
I achieved something even bigger.
50:40
This is, this is huge. Yeah, totally good this.
50:45
This is why we have a lot of poor systems and horrible
50:47
interfaces. Because when you design, you
50:51
work based on some assumptions and perhaps it works for a
50:54
while, and then you get to a point with the interface where
50:57
you cannot get it to also do this, or to also work well in
51:01
this particular situation, and then you're trying to fix it.
51:05
Sometimes it works, other times it just doesn't.
51:08
And so you're there at the point where you have two options.
51:10
Either just accept it, saying it's it's great in some
51:13
situations, in others it's bad, or you can go back to the
51:17
drawing board and try to come up with a better concept.
51:19
But that means you also have to give up all the work you've and
51:22
all the solutions you've put into the rest.
51:24
And that's where some teams always choose the compromise and
51:28
then you have something that doesn't work.
51:29
And other teams that are prepared to really suffer for
51:32
months to finally get to that point where they can say, well,
51:36
now we have something that works in all the cases.
51:42
What's the best advice you've ever received?
51:48
I'm not sure it was advice. When I was young it was a
51:53
reaction. But when I was young I was very
51:57
stressed. You know, I'm starting a company
51:59
and all of that. My life felt very improvised.
52:03
Everything was difficult. So I was very stressed and I met
52:09
with an old guy who I knew. I mean he was old at that point
52:15
and I hadn't seen him for a few years.
52:18
He's an older electrician let's say very like his.
52:23
His life wasn't eventful by those standards that he would
52:26
use in today's meeting. You know, he he wouldn't have
52:28
had a great LinkedIn profile, let's call it that thing.
52:31
But he was always eager to learn and a very wise guy.
52:33
And so he was, she just asked me, he just asked me, how are
52:37
you? What's life like?
52:38
I told you, you know what? It's not that bad.
52:41
It's it's OK. But I'm very stressed.
52:44
I'm. I'm just stressed all the time.
52:47
And it's it's it's horrible. I don't know.
52:50
I'm tired all the time because I'm stressed.
52:52
And he said, you know what, Dennis?
52:55
When I grew up, there was a famine.
52:58
Then we had a war. It was a very, very bad war.
53:02
My parents died and then we were deported and we lived in
53:06
horrible conditions for a long time.
53:07
And then we moved to a country that didn't love us and so on.
53:14
I don't know if it was an easy life, but I can tell you
53:17
something. Nobody, absolutely nobody was
53:21
stressed and that somehow but he, you know, because he said it
53:27
in such a genuine way, I think it you know what, maybe I
53:30
shouldn't be stressed. Maybe this is just what life is
53:33
like. Obviously a lot of people have a
53:35
much more difficult life. But just having this meta
53:38
emotion of I'm stressed about all of these other emotions and
53:40
of all of these other things I'm I'm having to do, and that sort
53:45
almost cured me. So it was very good advice, I
53:49
suppose. I don't know.
53:50
I. Suppose as well you could sort
53:51
of pull from it, just just go with the flow.
53:56
Like, you know, yeah, maybe this is just what life is.
53:59
Life throws these challenges. There is something to be said
54:04
for and I I tried to tell people this all the time, like don't
54:07
cause unnecessary stress for yourself.
54:10
Like there is stress. There are things that are
54:12
stressful. But then there's no point
54:15
sitting and stressing over said stress like that literally is a
54:20
waste of your time and energy, like there's nothing will be
54:23
achieved with that. But again, it is easier said
54:27
than done as well because you know, feelings materialise, they
54:30
just happen. It's not like we choose.
54:32
It's not like I sit down and go Oh well, I'm I'm choosing to be
54:35
stressed till 12 in the afternoon like it's doesn't work
54:38
that way. But.
54:41
Yeah, no, it's definitely something that we all do, and I
54:43
suppose we can all try not to do.
54:46
But yeah, What's the biggest life lesson you've learned so
54:51
far? Let me try to formulate it.
55:00
It's it's difficult, but one of the ideas in this life lesson is
55:08
that people aren't as great as we think.
55:12
And by great I mean they're not really as capable as we think.
55:16
The the human animal is a very fragile thing that doesn't
55:19
really work really well, and it cannot really do as much as we
55:23
try to make it do. Whether this applies to
55:26
ourselves or perhaps our partners or our friends or our
55:30
the people we work with, the people who we encounter when we
55:33
just, you know, buy a coffee and so on, they're all
55:37
underperforming because I think there's being asked too much of
55:41
people. And so with that in mind, it's
55:46
not a miracle that nothing really works that well and the
55:49
world is in in constant state of chaos and it looks like it's
55:53
going to explode any minute because that's what it is like
55:57
because that's the best we can do for now.
55:59
Of course we've made a lot of progress.
56:02
But then with that comes also the point that anything that is
56:07
good or beautiful or nice or whatever positive way you want
56:11
to describe something, it needs to fulfil a lot more criteria
56:15
than something that is horrible or bad.
56:19
And so it's very, very difficult to come by something that is
56:22
good because it's very unlikely that it can exist in, you know,
56:26
this state of chaos. And so that makes everything
56:29
that is good very difficult to to attain, but also very
56:33
precious. So I think any times we any time
56:36
we see something that we like, we should treat it to something
56:39
that's very, very precious. But also when we're trying to
56:42
create something that is positive, we should be very
56:45
patient, realising that it's and we we might be able to, let's
56:50
say, force into existence 20 of the criteria that are needed for
56:54
it to be nice and to exist, but perhaps it needs 60.
56:58
And so with that in mind you, you can see that it requires a
57:03
lot more work and perhaps the contribution of a lot more
57:05
people and you shouldn't necessarily expect it to happen.
57:10
But of course, understanding the the how precious positive things
57:14
are, you would see that it's still worth trying to make them
57:17
come about. It's just that you have to be
57:20
prepared to make the sacrifice of trying it many, many times,
57:24
understanding that maybe you'll never succeed, but it's still
57:27
worth doing it because if sufficient people work in this
57:30
way, you're going to have a better life.
57:32
And today we are the people who have a better life because of
57:36
all millions of people who have sacrificed a lot before and they
57:40
have sacrificed a lot and they have done it for us, even though
57:43
they don't know us personally. I think a lot of people have
57:48
thought about things in this way and then really, you know, given
57:51
up on their comfort and even some have made huge sacrifices.
57:56
And so we will directly benefit from that by virtue of being
57:59
able to talk to each other here, of being moderately healthy, at
58:03
least having food and all of that I think is a miracle even.
58:08
So that that's that's the life lesson.
58:12
I think I'm trying to go by long term.
58:17
Beautiful man. Thank you so much for sharing.
58:19
Yeah, some really great stuff there.
58:21
I could not agree more. Final question for you.
58:23
Do you have any upcoming projects or final thoughts that
58:26
you'd like to share with our listings?
58:30
I don't have any big announcements to make and just
58:32
our work can be seen on our website creativenavy.com.
58:35
There we actually share some case studies in depth.
58:38
We try to show as much as we can.
58:41
I just say that we've done something, and I think some
58:45
people might find those interesting.
58:47
If you're trying to build things, you could see even
58:50
deliverables in there. And I personally find it very
58:53
helpful to see deliverables that others create, because that
58:56
tells me something about how they work and I can perhaps
58:59
incorporate it into my work even if I'm not in the same field.
59:02
But that's about it. Oh, that's a massive thank you
59:05
for appearing on the show. It's it's been an absolute
59:08
pleasure picking your brains about UX and UI and just also
59:10
just life in general, like, just a real pleasure.
59:13
Thank you. Thank you.
59:15
It's been a pleasure from you. So I'm.
59:17
Glad to hear that. Thank you so much, Sir.
59:19
And to all the listeners of the Christian Re podcast, I hope you
59:22
enjoyed this episode. If you did as I said at the
59:25
beginning, please leave us a review on Pod Chaser, Spotify,
59:30
Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, YouTube wherever you listen to
59:33
the show. Please leave us a review.
59:35
Please share, spread the word. It really, really helps us out.
59:38
Thank you so much. Also make sure to go subscribe
59:41
and support the show on patreonpatreon.com/christian
59:45
Reeve. Make sure you go check out
59:46
Dennis's work. It's fantastic stuff that he's
59:49
doing. And thank you so much for
59:52
watching and listening. Until next time, be safe.
59:54
Be well. I'll see you in the next one.