Latest / Beautifully Complex / 336: ENCORE: Lessons Learned: From Mom and Her Neurodivergent Kid, with Penny & Luke Williams

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336: ENCORE: Lessons Learned: From Mom and Her Neurodivergent Kid, with Penny & Luke Williams · Beautifully Complex

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Hey there, friends, it's Penny. I wanted to bring back
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: one of my all time favorite episodes for you this week.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: It is a conversation with my nerdivergent kiddo from way
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: back in episode two hundred. You guys always love hearing
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: from him, and I honestly do too. I learned so
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: much about his experience every time I am able to
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: interview him. He was about twenty when we recorded this,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: and what has really struck me both then and still
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: now is how clearly he was able to communicate that
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: he sees his neurodivergence as a difference and not a deficit.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: And that certainly is something that I think ebbs and
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: flows for him, and he was using his thinking brain
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: to really explain that he sees it as a difference.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: But I know that sometimes it doesn't still feel that
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: way to him. But he was able in this episode
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: to communicate a grounded sense of self acceptance and perseverance
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: that I think so many adults spend a lifetime trying
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: to build. So as we head into this encore, I
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: invite you to listen through two lenses as a parent
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: and just as a human being. There's so much wisdom
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: in his words, and so much hope in seeing how
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: far our kids can come when we start meeting them
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: where they are and we start seeing them for who
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: they are. All right, let's get into it. Welcome to
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really means to
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm Penny Williams,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: and I know firsthand how tough and transformative this journey
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: can be. Let's dive in and discover how to raise regulated, resilient,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: beautifully complex kids together. Oh and if you want more
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: support in our free community at hub dot beautifully Complex
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: dot life. Hello, Hello, our neurodiverse community. I am thrilled
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: to be recording our two hundredth episode right now of
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: the Beautifully Complex Podcast. I cannot believe that I have
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: been podcasting for almost six years and we have amassed
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: two hundred episodes, and I have a really special guest
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: for you on this episode. Do you want to say? Hello?
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Hi?
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Who are you?
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I'm Luke I am her Son.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: It's Luke. Guys, he's back after a year or two.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: You guys heard him in a previous episode. I'll link
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: it up in the show notes and everyone was so
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: excited to hear from you, Luke, and so I know
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: that they're really going to be so happy to hear
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: your insights and to benefit from them again in this episode,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about the big lessons that
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: we have learned in the fourteen years since Luke got
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: his first diagnosis that made him neurodivergent. Well, he was
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: born neurodivergent, right, but the first diagnosis where we knew
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: that he was neurodivergent, that ADHD diagnosis. And it's been
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: a long journey, right Benny, Right, Yeah, yeah, long journey,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: but you made it and you keep moving forward, right, Yeah,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: So you want to tell people, like what you've been
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: up to, what's happened? You graduated from high school? Right?
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: I did?
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Yes? And what have you been doing.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: A lot of stuff with music still? Yeah?
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: So creating your own digital music? Right, you're still doing
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: music lessons? You have had a job, right you worked
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: for a while in a print.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Shop and yeah nine months.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: You're thinking about some different opportunities of what to explore next,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: right yeah yeah, and so just finding your way in
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: your own time. Does it feel good to be able
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: to do that?
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, it's great to be able to have a
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: kind of normal, kind of role in my life for
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: at least a little bit.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. What do you mean by that, a normal role
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: in your life?
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of like normal progression.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, did you feel stuck when you were
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: in school?
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Kind of? Yeah, it was a very chocked feeling when
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: you have a lot of trouble expressing your struggles in
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the complications that you have.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it can be really challenging. I know, and
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: it took me a while to really understand, and I
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: think it took you some growth and maturity to be
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: able to understand yourself even right.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I can tell you this once that I don't fully
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: understand myself still, but.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure any of us do totally.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: I have substantially improved my understanding of myself.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, and I've seen that so much in
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: you too. So let's start with your five big lessons learned,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: because I'm hoping that the parents who are listening might
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: have their kids join them to listen to You're ahaz
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: from your experience so far. So we'll start with you
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: and case kids want to jump in and listen. What
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: was your number one or the first thing that you
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: want to talk about on your big list of things
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: that you've learned.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Firstly, there is nothing wrong with you. I feel like
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: in the scape of neurodiversity, a lot of it is
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: portrayed as something being wrong with you, or, as a
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: documentarian on YouTube put it, a lot of people have
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: this ideology that your brain has just gone out. But
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: that's not true at all. It's more of just this
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: kind of divergence, which is where the term comes from.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: But it's just a different way that your brain functions.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: It's not the wrong way, it's a different way.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you got a lot of messages throughout growing
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: up that at least fell to you like people were
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: saying it was the wrong way right.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Right. The school system has this really weird fascination with
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: making the narrative virgin kids feel like they're not good enough.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: I think that system of compliance and conformity just doesn't
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: allow for differences, right.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Well, no, because they have their curriculum, and if the
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: curriculum steers up away from that and it's deemed improper education.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: So your number one was there's nothing wrong with you, right, Yeah,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: what's your number two?
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: It's a speed bump not a roadblock. I love that
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: the whole idea that you're unable to progress forward is wrong.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: It's a mindset that I've been in before where it's
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: very very hard to progress forward because you either like
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: don't see the reason too or are constantly opposed when
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: trying to move forward. But there's always going to be away.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: And I say roadblock instead of dead end, because in
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: most circumstances of where we feel trapped, it's not I
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: don't know where I'm going, it's I know where I'm
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: supposed to go, I just can't get there. Can you
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: give us an example of what part? An example of
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: a time where you felt like you were stock and
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: you knew where you wanted to go, but you were
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: having a hard time getting there, Like, is there a
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: specific example you can share? Well, there was a time
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: in school where I had to write a paper. M
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: I don't really remember the specifics of the paper because
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: that was like sixth grade, but I remember that I
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: knew what I wanted to do, my general statement of
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: the paper, but I couldn't get it to go on
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: the actual page. I couldn't like write down when I wanted,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: So I had this feeling of seeing where I needed
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: to go, but being unable to get there because there
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: was something blocking it. But in reality, it was just
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: a slope point because eventually I got myself to the
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: point of where I could put what I wanted to
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: put down on the paper and I got it done.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: And how'd you do that? Did you get help from
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: other people or what helped you?
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Trying to open my mind to the other possibilities of
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: what I could do was one thing of as I
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: like to call it, deep thinking and trying to find
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: alternative solutions to your problem. But asking for help is
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: always an option, and if people tell you otherwise, they're wrong.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you had to sort of step back and say, Okay,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: there's a problem here I need to solve. I have
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: to get creative on how I can get around this
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: roadblock so that I can get to this finish line
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: that I can already see right. Yes, nice and writing
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: was a big roadblock for you a long time, wasn't it. Yeah,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: it's really difficult. Yeah, and I think there's a lot
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: of kids out there who have that same difficulty, and
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: I don't think that your educators recognized it very much.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: It's something that when it comes naturally to you. It's
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: hard to imagine that other people struggle with it. Like
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I remember when you guys were little, and organizing is
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: really natural to me, like super super, very specifically organized
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: down to the in detail is the way my brain works.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: And it was really hard for me to realize that
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: it wasn't that you didn't care, it was that you
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: didn't see it the same way. Right. I had to
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: realize that you didn't see things the same way I
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: see things, and that your instincts weren't the same as
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: mine instincts, which can be really hard for adults to see.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: And so if you're a good writer, even somebody who
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: hasn't struggled with writing, for instance, it can be challenging
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: to imagine that somebody could know where they want to
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: go and not be able to get it on the paper.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: And you know, that's the beauty of this podcast and
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: others and the work that a lot of other neurodiversion
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: adults like you are doing and trying to educate people
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: and let them know that these are the things that
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: we have a hard time with right right, and that
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: you can help us if you understand, if you're open
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: to understanding that there are different ways of moving through
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: the world. So what's your number three on your list
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: of big lessons?
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: You're capable of learning and growing no matter.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: What, everybody, right, right.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this isn't just strictly for the neurodivergent, but it
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: does help neurodivergent people a lot. And you express to
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: them that they are capable of doing the thing that
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: feels really difficult to them, which is to comprehend and
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: capture information as well as other people can.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so the roadblock there again, right, is that
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: the system is very rigid, and if you don't learn
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: in the ways that the system is designed, then it
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: feels like you're not capable, doesn't it, right, Yes, And
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: so what do we do about that? How do we
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: help kids with that?
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: If a kid needs something explained, you don't question why
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: they need it explained or deny them the explanation. You
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: explain it to them. Again. There were a lot of times,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: especially with math stuff because I hate math, there were
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: several times when I would have to have the same
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: thing explained to me over and over again. I think
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: in particular it was division because I didn't really understand
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: what the whole thing of what it meant to divide
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: was so I had to have my teacher explain it
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: to me multiple times, and every time that it was
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: explained to me, I took something away from it, but
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: I didn't take the whole thing away from that.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Does a building process, Yes, And I want to point
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: out here you are wicked smart. It has nothing to
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: do with smarts, right right.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: I would like to believe it. As you know, a normal,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: normal brain is a disgusting term. But like you know,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: non neurodivergent people, their information is more like a block
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: or like a square. It's just a solid thing, m h.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: And when they learn it, it's there. But with neurodivirgin people,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: it's like building blocks. Every time it's explained to you,
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: you get a new part of the puzzle, and yet
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: sometimes you get the whole puzzle and sometimes you don't.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a good way to explain it, bed
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: I like that. It makes it really easy for us
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: to understand from the outside. So we're on number four, right,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: of your lessons learned? What's number four?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, find your people? The rest don't matter.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: How did you find your people.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: My circumstance, I guess, but I did look for them
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: kind of.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was when you joined robotics club
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: in middle school.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Possibly i'd argue that point, but I feel like it
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: was before that. But Robotics Cup did certainly affirm those
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: friendships for me because it was me realizing that, hey,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: these people are a lot like me, aren't they.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so looking for people with similar interest to you
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: or even like similar challenges, I think you can bond
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: over that as well.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I think about eighty percent of my friends
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: there's some form of neurodivergent mm hmmm.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think a lot of times neurodivergent people
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: have similar interest too. Like you guys were really interested
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: in gaming, you were really interested in technology and stuff
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: like that. That's why you guys were in robotics together
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: in the first place, because you had similar interests. But
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: it can feel for parents, especially like your kids are
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: never going to find good friends, They're never going to
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: have a really solid connection. And what would you say to.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: That that it's not true and that there is someone
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: for everyone out there, regardless of it's friendship or relationship.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Everyone has someone that they can get along with in
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: the world, and all you have to do is just
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: keep looking.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, being open to meeting new people and stuff like that,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: which can be really hard too for a lot of people.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: But I think what we tried to do to help
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: you was just to keep encouraging you to participate in
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: things that you were interested in, knowing that there would
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: be people your age with similar interests there as well,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: and that that would be a helpful maybe environment for
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: you to meet your tribe, to find your people. What
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: is your number five?
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: But you're never fully stuck?
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: I think everybody needs a big exhale in that one.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: You're never fully stuck? Does it feel often like you're
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: fully stuck?
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: I think there are times where I've bricked myself in
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: a corner because I felt so stuck that I couldn't
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: do anything. But eventually there was a way to solve
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: that problem. So even if you feel stuck, there's always
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: some way to get yourself out of it.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Can you give some examples? I know that's going to
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: be different for everybody, but how did you work yourself
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: out of that corner when you felt like you were
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: totally stuck for good?
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Well? I would sit there in that corner and it
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: would really feel like I was just not going to
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: be able to get out of it. But eventually you
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: start to see if you really try, you start to
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: see the ways that it can get better, and you
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: usually act on those and it'll help you get unstuck.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: And I from the parent side, would add to take
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: the pressure off. And I know you're a big proponent
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: of stop pressuring your kids, stop pressuring your students. Yeah,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: so I know you would agree with that. But also
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: what strikes me is that you needed time to be
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: able to think through it. And so what I know
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: about the nervous system and the brain is that when
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: you were in that corner and you were getting the
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: feeling of being bricked in and completely and hopelessly stuck,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: it was because your emotional and survival brains were taking
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: over and your thinking brain was becoming inaccessible, and so
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: you couldn't really see a way out because you couldn't rationalize,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: you couldn't problem solve. But you sat in that until
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: your thinking brain was able to come back online because
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: your nervous system had calmed down and your emotional brain
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: had calmed down, and then you were able to think
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: more clearly and to really problem solve and be able
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: to see that yes, I can get unstuck. This isn't hopeless.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Does that feel true to you?
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing when we learn about what our bodies
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: and our brains are doing during those times, how much
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: it describes exactly what we need to know to do
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: the most helpful thing for our kids. So what I
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: needed to know in those instances to help you was
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: to give you time, right, which I know you will
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: nod your head vehemently in agreement. I struggled with for
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: a long time giving you time and space, right, Yes,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: I see you nodding.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Yes, it was very hard because why do you know
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: why it was so hard for me to give you
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: space and time? No, because I wanted to help you
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: so bad, And that's where so many parents get stuck
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: in that same trap that I did. I wanted to
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: help you so bad right away, and what I was
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: inadvertently doing was actually making it harder for you, right
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: because I was putting all that pressure on. I was
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: piling onto the overwhelm, and I didn't see that for
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: a long time until you we were able to let
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: me know what was going on and what I was
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: actually doing. What that felt like to you on the
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: receiving side of it. And I've been working really hard
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: to not pressure you to talk about things right away
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and to give you time and space. How have I
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: been doing better?
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: Better?
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Still room for improvement? Yeah, I'm sure, yeah, because mom
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: just wants to help. Man, it's hard. It's hard when
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: you're a parent to see your kid struggle and to say, Okay, well,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: you know, I've got to give him time. I have
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: to give him longer to feel really crappy, but it
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: really is true for all of us, and I have
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: to remind myself of that. We all have a similar
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: nervous system and a similar brain, you know, in the
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: ways that it sometimes gets stuck and what helps, and
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: so we have to remember that just like we sometimes
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: just need time and quiet and space, so do you,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: So do our kids, so to our students. So let's
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: talk about my list of my parent lessons, because I
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: think you're going to have a lot of input for
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: what I have on my list too, And I'm really
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: curious about that as well, what you're going to say
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: to that. And I think we've touched on some of
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: it already, but I would say that I would start
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: with there's nothing to fix and that kind of dovetails
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: with one of your lessons, and I got really stuck
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: and fix it mode when you were in first grade
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: and second grade and third grade and you were really
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: having a hard time, and I was getting so much
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: pressure from the school that you had to behave a
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: certain way, you had to learn certain things, and I
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: was just trying to help you to meet those expectations,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: not understanding that that was a completely wrong way to
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: go about it. That it wasn't about fixing the situation
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: making you capable of fitting into their box. It was
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: about helping everyone see that you learned differently and helping
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: you to do it in your way and your time.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: And it took me a really long time to learn that,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: and I wasted a lot of time trying to fix it.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: So now when I look back, that's one of my
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: biggest lessons for parents and for educators. There's nothing to fix.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: It's not a matter of fixing something. It's not a
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: matter of making kids fit into this box that you've
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: dreamed up. It's about opening that box, flattening all the
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: sides of that box, and being free to be creative
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: and to be different, to learn differently, and to show
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: what you've learned differently, to participate in a birthday party differently.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Maybe you know it's okay for you to go about
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: the world differently. Do you agree?
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And we have a long way to go, don't we,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: with especially with our education system, to say it's okay
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: to do it differently. But there's a really big acceptance
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: for parents, and it's a process that we have to
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: go through to realize that we're not trying to change
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: the diagnoses. We're not trying to change the child that
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: we have. We have a fantastic, wonderful child with thoughts
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: of greatness within them. It's a matter of helping them
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: figure out what that journey looks like for them, because
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: it can be different than that really stereotypical path that
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: we want to push every kid to. My number two,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: you can co escalate or you can co regulate. Can
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: you remember times when I've co escalated you?
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, probably more than you can count. Yes, Because it
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: took me a long time to learn this right that
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: I had to really stay calm, that I had to
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: take a step back and let you find your way
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: sometimes it didn't have to be my way again, And
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: then you know what we want to do instead of
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: co escalating is to coregulate. And I will say about
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: co escalating, it's not our intention. It's never our intention
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: to make things worse, to get you more stuck, or
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: to get you more just regulated. It is our instinct
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: to respond in kind. So if you're yelling, it's my
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: instinct in my body to yell back for protection. And
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: we have to as parents and educators and other adults
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: in your lives, we have to figure out how to
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: offer you calm tomorrow, how to stay calm for our
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: so that we can stay in that thinking brain and
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: we can stay regulated so that we can actually be
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: helpful to you. Because just like it's hard for you
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: to do things when you're just regulated, it's hard for
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: appearents and educators to do things when they're just regulated too.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: So we have to work really hard at not escalating
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: the situation but offering calm to try to help our
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: kids too become regulated again and be back online with
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: all of those thinking brain, emotional brain, survival brain working
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: in harmony. And so that's my number two. Can you
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: think of like one example where I was super co
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: escalating that you can share no, no, nothing, like jumps
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: out at you like, oh this time, mom really was
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: not just off it. No, I'll take that as a win.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Maybe then, okay, you haven't been scarred by anything that
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: I've No. Am I better at co regulating, offering you
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: coregulation and calm now than I used to be. Yes, yeah,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: you sound like maybe you don't believe that, but you
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: want you don't have to say what you think I
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: want to hear.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: There are times, but it's it's better.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I'm human, right, dude, I understand that
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: I'm human. I'm going to make mistakes. Parents make mistakes
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: just like kids.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I'm not denying that.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: No, I know. I'm just pointing it out for everybody listening.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: We're human beings as parents or teachers or whatever, and
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: we're going to make mistakes. We're gonna get caught up,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: but we certainly are trying right, and when we know better,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: we do better. So I know better and I'm working
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: on doing better. So my number three, which we've already
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: talked about, my number three biggest lesson was that pressure
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: makes things less doable for everyone, I think, but especially
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: for neurodivergent individuals. If I put pressure on you then
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: you kind of shut down, Right, Do you want to
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that? Because I know this
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: is a big topic for you. It's a big sticking
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: point for you. And it's sort of the societal tool
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: that we're taught to use that we put pressure on
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: kids to perform, to do what we've asked. If you
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: don't do this, this thing you don't like is going
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: to happen, right, the whole crime and punishment. And I
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: learned from you in pretty recent years when you were
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: finally able to sort of pinpoint it and to tell
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: me about it, that the more pressure people put on you,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: the less capable you are of meeting whatever expectation they're
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: pressuring you on. Right, What does that feel like for
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: you when somebody is really pressuring you?
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Not good?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously? Can you describe though, Like, are there certain
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: feelings in your body or certain thoughts that you have
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: when you're getting really pressured.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do it. That's a pretty common
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: thought on I'm being pressured because it feels less of
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: doing it of my own volition and more of this
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: person is forcing me to do it. So I kind
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: of have to do it now, don't I? You don't
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: like to be told what to do. Right, I'm less
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: likely to procrastinate if I set up the thing for
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: myself than if I'm told to do it.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: M that's so good. Say that again.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: Uh no, No, you're less likely to procrastinate if you
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: set it up for yourself.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Set it up for yourself then if you're told to
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: do it by someone else, because it feels more like
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: your goal than someone else's.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: And that interchange was an exact example.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: You're welcome, right.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: You just felt pressured by me to do it because
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: I I just wanted you to reiterate that for people listening,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: because it's so so good. We need to know that
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: in order to do right by you.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: I was with you.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I know, I was goofing my favorite thing about you.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: You're so funny and kind and I love it. I
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: always laugh with you. It's amazing part of your greatness.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: So my number four, I'm on. My number four behavior
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: is often a physiological instinctual response. This is what I
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: learned from learning more about neurobiology and brain science, is
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: that our nervous systems are sending us messages constantly, and
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: very often that message is of danger, and sometimes there
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: is danger, and sometimes it's a false alarm. But so
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: often behavior is an instinct well automatic response to something
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: that is hard. Right, if it's a challenging or unwanted behavior,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: it came from something that was hard and it was
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: an automatic response. So your child or your student didn't
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: sit down and go while I'm gonna scream at mom
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: and tell her I hate her and then I'm gonna
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: get my way. That doesn't happen. It just automatically. Your
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: body is trying to protect itself. Our kids' bodies are
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: trying to protect themselves, and that's what we're on the
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: receiving end of. And it can feel really intentional, it
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: can feel very personal, but so often it's not. That
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: was a big, big, big, big big parenting aha for me,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: a big mindset shift for me. That was really helpful
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: because then I could more often see that Luke wasn't
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: giving me a hard time, he was having a hard time.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: I could tell when he was having a hard time,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: and then that made me go, Okay, how do I
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: help him? Versus why is he doing this to me?
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Why is he acting this way? Do you have any
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: input for that one? But no, nope, nothing. Does it
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: feel true. Yeah, yeah, Sometimes you aren't really in control
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: of your responses to things. Yeah yeah. And one big
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: clue for me when you were growing up on that
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: was that something would happen, it'd be really hard, it'd
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: be really intense, and then later you would come and
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: you would say, I'm so sorry, Mom, I didn't mean
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: for that to happen, or you know, I don't mean
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: what I said. And then I knew that you weren't
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: really in control because you weren't okay with what happened either.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: And I think that parents really have to key into that.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: That's a big signal that that was more of an automatic,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: instinctual response.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: So my number five, My number five, The relationship always
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: comes first. You're reallylationship as the adult, the parent, the educator,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: or the soccer coach, whoever you are as an adult
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: in the life of a neurodivergent kid, the relationship between
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: you and the connection has to be the top priority.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: So some days homework isn't a thing because the relationship
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: matters more. Some days getting that math work sheet done
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: in the classroom isn't the top priority. The top priority
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: is the connection and the relationship with that student. What
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: happens when you have a good relationship with the adults
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: in your life, Buddy, what happens when you feel a
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: good connection with your parents, your teachers, your grandparents, you know, whoever.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: You're a coach, it feels a lot easier to trust
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: them with knowing about your struggles when they seem to
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: understand them, so you'll go to them more frequently when
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: you have problems with something.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And does it make you feel more understood?
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: And does that make things feel more doable?
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember so many times we battled about homework
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: because school was really hard for you, and it was
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: pretty unfair. I think for any kid it's unfair for
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: them to have to do homework. Truly, you have already
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: been doing seven hours of it during the day. You
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: need a life outside of school. But that's a whole
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: other conversation.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Homework is bad. I'd love to have that conversation.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you were so spent by the time you got home. Right,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: How hard were you working at school to keep it together,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: to try to fit and do what you were asked
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: to do? Hard, way harder than people realized.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so did you have any energy left or
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: any will to do more hard like no math work
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: or writing or reading.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: You expel all of your energy at school and all
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: of your willingness to do anything that you like don't
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: want to at school. So the fact that they expect
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: you to come home and do more school stuff is abysmal.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Because homework is not an optional thing. You have to
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: do it. So they're literally forcing you to go home
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: and do more school in an environment you know you
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: could be doing not school.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And you just need a break, don't you.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Yes. I feel like that's not even for neurodivergent children.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: That's just everyone.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, homework is terrible and the prospect of homework is insulting.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I agree, but I agree for all kids. I don't
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: want to get way into this in this conversation. We'll
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: definitely do another episode and we'll get into it, oh
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: for sure, But for now, this just illustrates so much
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: why the relationship is so important, because we are asking
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: our kids to do really hard things, and we often
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: don't recognize that these things are harder for our kids
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: than maybe they were for us as kids, maybe they
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: are for their peers in the classroom, and so we
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: have to see them. We have to hear them, we
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: have to meet them where they are, and all of
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: that is part of making sure that the relationship comes first.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Don't you feel Luke the most capable when people really
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: get it around you and when they're really open to
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: you doing things in your own way and your own time.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, such short answers from you today are usually such
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: a talker. So let's have some final thoughts. What is
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: one final thought for any kids or young adults who
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: are neurodivergent who are listening?
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Don't do drugs?
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Look ever it?
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay. Regardless of what your aspirations are, you can
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: achieve them, unless this aspirations are to achieve un vehicular flight.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: But whatever your dreams are, if you work hard enough
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: to get it and believe in yourself to get it,
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: you can get it regardless of your nerdivergency. Nice and
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: don't do drugs?
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, I agree with that. What is your final message
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: for parents or teachers, educators adults in your life?
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Do you got it?
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Okay? What is your final helpful thought for the adults?
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: Apply what you learned here to your teaching or parenting.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: That's why we're doing this, is it not?
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, observation, Mom, thank you.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: So I will just say for Luke. Luke's final overarching
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: message for the adults is to quit putting pressure on us,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: because I know that's what you would probably say, because
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: you've said it a thousand times. Okay, Oh, I love you.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: And so my final thoughts as I reflect on this
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: journey of being your mom is one how much I've
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: learned from you, and how much of a better person
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: I am and a better parent I am because of you,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: and how truly grateful I am. Things have been hard,
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: no doubt, but you are an amazing human being, and
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: I'm so very grateful that you gave me the opportunity
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: to be more empathetic, more compassionate, more understanding, and more
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: open to a lot of differences and a lot of
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: different people and different perspectives. And I just feel like
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: my life is richer because you've helped me learn these things.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: And my life is richer because this has afforded me
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: the opportunity to help other people. And it's so amazing
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: to be able to spend my days helping other people,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Helping kids like you, helping parents like me, helping the teachers,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: and the principles and the school counselors to really letting people,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: letting kids be exactly who they are and celebrating it.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: And I'm just so in awe in all of you,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: and in awe of everyone and what we get to
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: do and the impact that we get to make. I'm
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: just so grateful. And that is two hundred episodes. I
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: can't believe it. To one hundred conversations that I have
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: had and put out there for the world. And we're
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: going to keep going, right and Luke, you're going to
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: be on more episodes in the future. I'm so glad.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad. I know our listeners are glad to
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: all right. Well, number two hundred is in the books,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: it's out there, and I'm so happy to keep having
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: these conversations and to keep trying to help help families
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: like ours and help kiddos like you. So I will
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: see everyone on the next episode. Take good care. I
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: see you. You're doing hard and meaningful work and you
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: don't have to do it alone. If you found this
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: episode helpful, share it with someone who needs it and
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: leave a quick review so others can find this support too.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: When you're ready for next steps. The Regulated Kid's Project
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: is here with the tools, coaching, and community to help
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: you raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: at regulated kids dot com.