Latest / State Of Mind Mental Health Podcast / #106 - Iran Used Children as Minesweepers - The Story of Iranian Resistance to Authoritarian Theocracy

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#106 - Iran Used Children as Minesweepers - The Story of Iranian Resistance to Authoritarian Theocracy · State Of Mind Mental Health Podcast

• 0:00
  you would see in the main square of the city, there's a public hanging.
• 0:02
  And so what does that do to a child growing up with that as a reality in your society?
• 0:09
  You know, the fact that...
• 0:12
  450,000 children were sent to open minefields.
• 0:15
  They were used as minesweepers during the Iran-Iraq war instead of buying minesweepers.
• 0:21
  So they would go to schools, they would take the children out of classes without their parents knowing, give them a gold plastic key and tell them, this is the key to heaven.
• 0:30
  So we're gonna roll you up in a blanket and roll you open on a minefield and then you'll go to heaven because you have this gold plastic key.
• 0:38
  I mean, a regime that does that with its own future.
• 0:41
  it's not going to show mercy to its people when it's willing to do that.
• 0:45
  Hello, Zolal.
• 0:46
  Thank you so much for joining me and sharing your experience, wisdom, strength with us.
• 0:52
  Can you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your work, how you got here in life and what you're up to now.
• 1:00
  First of all, allow me to say hello to everyone who's tuning into the podcast today.
• 1:04
  It's a pleasure to be with you, Mike, and um look forward to this conversation.
• 1:09
  If I wanted to introduce myself, I am a uh member of the Iranian Resistance, the National Council of Resistance of Iran Foreign Affairs Committee.
• 1:18
  And I have been a member.
• 1:21
  I've actually dedicated, I guess, most of my life to the cause of freedom for Iran.
• 1:26
  I joined the Iranian Resistance.
• 1:29
  at the age of 18.
• 1:31
  So it's been a very long struggle for 26 years now of continuing this fight.
• 1:39
  And hopefully we will be able to see the dawn of freedom soon in Iran.
• 1:44
  That is what we are striving for and working towards.
• 1:49
  So in a nutshell, that would be the introduction.
• 1:52
  And that's the N C R I that's the acronym for that.
• 1:56
  Yeah.
• 1:57
  Can you tell us how you got into that?
• 2:00
  know I have friends and people I've worked with whose families were either escaped Iran were on the execution list type of thing or for
• 2:12
  friend who was a gay man who fled Iran.
• 2:15
  So I'm just curious how you or your family, how did you get involved in all this specifically?
• 2:22
  Well, my parents came to the US before the revolution.
• 2:26
  So just like a few years before the revolution as students.
• 2:28
  But they were activists too.
• 2:30
  My father was arrested by the Slovak after finishing law school in Tehran only because he refused a job that the Shah wanted.
• 2:39
  I mean, it came with no strings attached and he wasn't willing to do that.
• 2:43
  He wasn't willing to, you know, put his entire
• 2:46
  and accept that and so that's why he was arrested by the Savak and was imprisoned and so uh the minute that he got a full scholarship to American U, my grandparents were like,
• 2:56
  you're leaving the country, you're not staying here.
• 2:58
  So my father came back in I think 1975 or so and then my mom joined later on in the U.S.
• 3:08
  so I...
• 3:10
  I'm part of the generation that unfortunately has never had the chance to actually see Iran.
• 3:14
  So I was born and raised abroad.
• 3:17
  But the reality is that Iran has always been a major part of my life.
• 3:24
  And I grew up with the situation and the circumstances in Iran.
• 3:28
  Because I was born in 1981 and just like three months after I was born, was the...
• 3:35
  you know, the height of the executions began in Iran.
• 3:39
  So June 20th, 1981 is when Khomeini opened fire on a peaceful protest of over 500,000 people in Tehran.
• 3:49
  And that day, or two, three thousand people were killed on the streets.
• 3:54
  from that night, mass executions began.
• 3:58
  So this has always been part of my life.
• 4:02
  I met people who were victims of torture when I was about four
• 4:06
  because my father, was a prominent writer and a human rights activist.
• 4:09
  And so I remember, you know, a group of people who had been able to escape from prison, they had come to go and testify in the U.S.
• 4:19
  Congress and at the United Nations.
• 4:20
  And so they were staying at our house for that time that they were here in the U.S.
• 4:26
  And so I got to meet them firsthand.
• 4:28
  And that really, even though I was a child, it really made an impact on me, even though they tried to shield me away and for me not
• 4:35
  to know like what their stories are or whatever but you know I was very I guess just
• 4:45
  I just wouldn't let it go.
• 4:47
  I forced them to tell me, you I was like, know who you are.
• 4:50
  I've seen your pictures.
• 4:51
  I've seen the posters and the demonstrations.
• 4:53
  I know who you are.
• 4:54
  You need to tell me your story.
• 4:55
  they eventually one of them had to tell me like a rated G version of his story for it to be acceptable for a four year old child to hear.
• 5:04
  But they became like my heroes in my in my mind.
• 5:07
  And to this day, they are still members of this resistance.
• 5:12
  And I still look up to them because I understand.
• 5:15
  everything that they've been through.
• 5:17
  But I always thought that was a new run and we're here.
• 5:20
  So there was that, you know, um distance, I guess, being in a safe environment and, you know, democracy and whatnot.
• 5:29
  Summer of 1988, things changed for me and that was because my father was killed by the regime.
• 5:34
  And that summer, the Iranian regime had 30,000 political prisoners executed within five, six weeks.
• 5:42
  And that was a turning point for the regime.
• 5:44
  And that is how the regime was able to keep its grip on power after the end of the Iran-Iraq war.
• 5:52
  And...
• 5:53
  But change for me wasn't just because I had lost my father.
• 5:57
  It was also the impact that it made on Iran as a whole.
• 6:02
  Every family in Iran had either lost someone or they knew someone who had been killed.
• 6:06
  that really, Khomeini was able to spread fear in society that way.
• 6:12
  you know.
• 6:13
  After that, was a silence inside of the country for practically a decade until the summer of 1999 when the student uprisings began.
• 6:24
  And at that time, the student uprising, for me, that was a turning point because at that time, that was when I saw people from our generation coming to the streets.
• 6:36
  And it was the first time since the 1980s that we're seeing uprising in Iran.
• 6:41
  And there was also
• 6:42
  first time I was being televised because it was the start of cable TV and CNN and whatnot.
• 6:47
  So the world was seeing it for the first time and so seeing like you know students being thrown over buildings and things like that and just seeing that and it just hit me.
• 6:57
  was like what is your responsibility?
• 7:00
  Are you just bystander?
• 7:02
  Are you just going to watch or are you going to do something about it?
• 7:05
  And so that I had just graduated from high school about like a month before and
• 7:12
  I decided to actually join the resistance.
• 7:15
  I was on my way to go to college and study medicine and that was like the life path that I don't know how many Iranians you know, it's usually like your parents from childhood they
• 7:27
  teach you like you have to study you have to become either doctor, lawyer or engineer nothing below that so that was you know the direction I was going in but at that moment I
• 7:38
  felt like you
• 7:39
  What's interesting was one year before I had read in a magazine, a youth magazine that's printed in LA back then, that there were 20,000 Iranian doctors practicing in the US back
• 7:53
  in 1998.
• 7:55
  right now it's much, much more, but back then.
• 8:00
  And I thought to myself, are you going to be one of those 20,000 or are you going to do something for Iran to be freed so these 20,000 can actually go and serve their own people?
• 8:09
  And that was the moment that I decided to leave everything behind and just join the resistance.
• 8:16
  And I have been a member of the resistance since then.
• 8:20
  Wow.
• 8:21
  Um, it's so hard for people here.
• 8:25
  I'm also born in 1981.
• 8:27
  Not that that matters really all that much, but, uh, growing up in, in fairy tale land in Toronto, Canada here, uh, in the eighties and nineties, um, it's so hard for people
• 8:42
  relatively disconnected from global affairs to really understand how
• 8:51
  or what it is like in a country like that.
• 8:54
  I don't know if you can kind of help people understand the impact on their daily lives, the impact on you as an activist and all the work you're doing, but maybe first, how life
• 9:09
  in that reality differs so much from life in our reality.
• 9:14
  that automatically we take a lot of things for granted that we have.
• 9:17
  And these are the same things that they're denied in, you know, under dictatorships in Iran, especially the plight of women, because Khomeini knew from the onset that
• 9:30
  He was up against a generation that had decided to take destiny into their own hands and they had been able to create like a true popular revolution.
• 9:45
  But unfortunately that revolution was hijacked immediately by Khomeini.
• 9:49
  And he knew that the people of Iran hadn't revolted for...
• 9:54
  Islamic Republic or whatever he wants to call it because it's not neither Islamic nor Republic but he knew that people didn't want that so he knew that he had to be able to
• 10:04
  have everyone under his thumb so what he did was specifically targeting women as the first step.
• 10:12
  because if you have control over half of society, you have control over the entirety of society.
• 10:18
  And one of the first laws that he brought in, this is even before the Constitution and everything like that, was the compulsory bail.
• 10:28
  And so unfortunately, very soon after the revolution, you saw women coming in protesting again, and the dawn of freedom, and the spring of freedom,
• 10:38
  In the dawn of the revolution, they had a sign, there's this very famous poster, says, in the spring of freedom, we are missing the freedom itself.
• 10:49
  And this is unfortunately what happened in Iran.
• 10:53
  But what was important is that the women of Iran never gave in.
• 10:57
  To this day, it's 47 years, they have never given in to this regime and they have never succumbed to this regime.
• 11:04
  I think that's very important to understand.
• 11:06
  I'm not saying all of society, but what's important is that there's part of society that had never given in and has continued the struggle, has continued the fight.
• 11:16
  And I think that is very important.
• 11:18
  And so the people of Iran tried really, it has become part of our culture in a way, and culture of defiance, a culture of standing, a culture of not giving in and to stand your
• 11:30
  ground no matter what the price.
• 11:33
  120,000 people have been executed because of their political beliefs in Iran.
• 11:39
  And most of them,
• 11:41
  because they were affiliated with the MEK, the People's Majority Organization of Iran.
• 11:46
  And the reality is that that has set a precedent for generations because we grew up with this reality.
• 11:54
  Like I remember growing up knowing that in Iran, know, 13 year old girls were being executed.
• 12:00
  I remember, you know, knowing that.
• 12:03
  I had a pen pal inside of Iran.
• 12:06
  Her dad had escaped Iran, so I knew her dad.
• 12:10
  And she was arrested along with her mother, and she was in prison.
• 12:14
  She spent...
• 12:15
  She was in prison twice, one time eight months, one time a few months with her mom.
• 12:19
  She was just a year older then.
• 12:21
  And I remember writing her and I always kept putting myself in her shoes and be like.
• 12:29
  Why does, you know, I get to go out and play and I go get to do, you know, go around and this and that.
• 12:35
  And she has to think about, you know, being the only one in prison without a blindfold and seeing everything and seeing how they would take her mom at night to be tortured.
• 12:48
  And, you know, and to this day, she I mean, we're still friends and she is living in France now.
• 12:55
  But.
• 12:56
  The reality is that she has blocked some of that out of her memory.
• 13:01
  And then there are certain aspects that she has learned about afterwards, but she has still to come to terms with it and accept it.
• 13:09
  But that was the case and that is what happened then.
• 13:11
  But that wasn't just like one exception.
• 13:15
  had a new girl who...
• 13:18
  At the age of five, she had been arrested with both her parents.
• 13:22
  And as a method of torture, the regime would make her watch her father be tortured.
• 13:26
  And unfortunately, her father ended up dying under torture.
• 13:29
  So she used to have like these nightmares about that.
• 13:33
  even though when you spoke to her during the day, she would be like, I have no recollection of going to prison with my parents.
• 13:40
  But that was still there.
• 13:41
  And I, and I always saw these people and I was like, seeing them, I always thought I'm the lucky one.
• 13:47
  Yes.
• 13:48
  I've lost my father, but I've never so had to suffer any of that.
• 13:51
  And just imagine having to, you know, this is, this was a reality for many from our generation or even the generation after us who they going to school, you might be, you
• 14:03
  know, because people walk to school and you run in.
• 14:07
  Like all of a sudden they would see like there would be a roadblock in front of them.
• 14:12
  And you would see in the main square of the city, there's a public hanging.
• 14:15
  And so what does that do to a child growing up with that as a reality in your society?
• 14:22
  You know, the fact that...
• 14:25
  450,000 children were sent to open minefields.
• 14:28
  They were used as minesweepers during the Iran-Iraq war instead of buying minesweepers.
• 14:34
  So they would go to schools, they would take the children out of classes without their parents knowing, give them a gold plastic key and tell them, this is the key to heaven.
• 14:43
  So we're gonna roll you up in a blanket and roll you open on a minefield and then you'll go to heaven because you have this gold plastic key.
• 14:51
  I mean, a regime that does that with its own future.
• 14:54
  it's not going to show mercy to its people when it's willing to do that.
• 14:58
  And I think it's just like every aspect of life is really affected by it.
• 15:02
  Children are taught, you know, in schools, first of all, every day you start with chance of death to this and death to that.
• 15:11
  And then every day you have to put up with, you know, the morality police and this and that.
• 15:18
  I mean, the regime tries to control every aspect of your life, but then it's up to you to not give up hope.
• 15:26
  and morale under these circumstances, especially when it's been 47 years.
• 15:32
  So not only your generation, but your parents' generation have probably only seen this.
• 15:38
  And what is interesting is that you see that despite all of that, the people of Iran are still defiant and they still come to the streets.
• 15:45
  mean, just in the past nine years, we've had four major uprisings in Iran, even though the toll has always been high, because people in Iran know that no one
• 15:55
  going to hand us freedom in a silver platter, we have to pay the price for it.
• 15:58
  But they have been willing to pay that price and they have been coming to the streets knowing the cost, knowing that they might never return home.
• 16:06
  But they also have seen and learned from the previous generation, especially the Gen Z everyone, they have learned that look, if you just try to safeguard your own life,
• 16:16
  nothing's ever going to change because everyone is just thinking of their own families or their own lives.
• 16:20
  that sacrifice has to be made somewhere for us to be able to see change.
• 16:24
  And because this regime is not going to just wither away itself.
• 16:28
  And that is what we have been seeing in the past few decades, anyone.
• 16:32
  So I think we tend to take things for granted or that we have here, you know, just being having the ability to have, you know, these freedoms and
• 16:44
  being responsible toward it, you know, understand if you understand that this is something of value, then you safeguard it, then you take care of it.
• 16:52
  But once when you think it's just a given, you just don't realize it until it's too late.
• 16:58
  And I think that is the major one of the most major differences.
• 17:03
  But right now, the reality is the situation in Iran is dire.
• 17:06
  I mean, even before the start of this war today is unfortunately day twenty five of the war when we're speaking.
• 17:12
  But even before the war, there was not a single aspect of life anywhere that you could put your finger on that had not been completely destroyed by this regime, be it from the
• 17:22
  infrastructure environment, know, economy, like practically, literally, there's no not a single place that you could put your finger on.
• 17:32
  Air pollution, water shortage, people didn't have electricity.
• 17:38
  at least two, three hours a day before the start of the uprising because the regime was using Iran's electricity for its, you know, for other uses.
• 17:47
  One of them was their Bitcoin farms or whatever, and also for their nuclear program and everything.
• 17:53
  So people of Iran have really been suffering from every aspect of it, and they just want to see change.
• 18:00
  But I think one of the things that's really important is the fact that.
• 18:04
  There has been organized resistance in the face of this regime all of these years.
• 18:08
  And that is something that is unprecedented, I think, in history.
• 18:11
  Because dictatorships, unfortunately, have always existed.
• 18:16
  you know, a organized resistance that continues its fight, not for one or 10 years, but for decades, for six decades.
• 18:25
  I think that is something that's unprecedented.
• 18:27
  Here in France, mean,
• 18:29
  France is known for resistance and everything during World War II and the whole, you know.
• 18:34
  I mean the history of it and just the culture of it and there are those who were very good friends of this resistance.
• 18:43
  Unfortunately they have passed away since but who were members of resistance back then during World War II and they said look ours at the end of the day it lasted like four or
• 18:54
  five years not four or five decades.
• 18:58
  The fact that you guys are still continuing after all of these years that is something that is unprecedented and the fact that
• 19:04
  They have tried every method to get rid of you and they haven't been able to succeed.
• 19:10
  That is what's important.
• 19:11
  And so that is the resilience of the Iranian people that we're seeing.
• 19:15
  And I think that's really important.
• 19:18
  Yeah.
• 19:18
  Wow.
• 19:19
  Thank you for all of that.
• 19:21
  It's so hard to fathom for people just not connected to things like this.
• 19:25
  And that was a lovely explanation of a couple of questions.
• 19:28
  One is also, I have a family member who I met, who I met, who is now deceased, who was in the French resistance, ended up in Auschwitz, survived, lived in France his whole life.
• 19:39
  Just anyway, I just thought I would say that out loud.
• 19:42
  Because it's a lot.
• 19:45
  Yeah, please.
• 19:46
  had the opportunity to visit Auschwitz, I think it's been now a decade or so, but uh when I went, there were a few people where we all went together, a few of them were former
• 20:00
  political prisoners.
• 20:01
  And the resemblances that they saw, Iranian, yeah, the resemblance that they saw between
• 20:09
  some of the situation and the same methods used in Evian Prison and in Auschwitz, for me it was startling, even though I had heard both, you know, I had
• 20:21
  I mean, growing up in DC, think from childhood, I had gone to visit the Holocaust Museum like number of times.
• 20:27
  And I had also heard all these stories of resistance in the prisons of Iran from people who were victims of it.
• 20:34
  to be there with someone who had actually lived through that and was like, this is how this works.
• 20:38
  This is how was.
• 20:39
  then the tour guide saying that is exactly how this worked.
• 20:43
  This is how the system was.
• 20:45
  To see that dictators,
• 20:47
  actually use the same methods.
• 20:48
  But on the other hand, the values of resistance also are the same and they're universal too.
• 20:57
  I want to kind of zoom in a little bit on the reality of how evil and dark the human mind can be.
• 21:07
  And I think so many questions I want to ask you.
• 21:11
  So one is.
• 21:12
  for people to understand because part of what I'm so curious about is how we can get more understanding into the quote unquote Western mind, if you will, of how evil this regime
• 21:25
  really is.
• 21:27
  And one perfect example, which you described was what they did with the children in the Iran Iraq war sent children using children.
• 21:37
  to walk through minefields and just how you can't.
• 21:42
  I mean, that's up there with the most evil thing you could possibly fathom up and how it's rationalized through.
• 21:48
  Maybe you can explain a little bit about this.
• 21:50
  Do they actually, the people sending the kids out to the minefields, do they actually believe in the religious fantasy that they claim?
• 21:58
  in those moments?
• 22:00
  No.
• 22:01
  Yeah.
• 22:02
  If they actually did, they would have to believe in like, first of all, you are putting people, taking people to their death.
• 22:10
  Do you think that one day you're going to have to respond to that for that?
• 22:14
  You know, you're going to be held accountable for that.
• 22:16
  The reality is they don't, they just, you know.
• 22:19
  they preach it, they don't believe in it.
• 22:22
  I think there's like, that is something that is very clear when it comes to the radio imaging because...
• 22:29
  nothing that they say or do represents.
• 22:33
  mean, anyone who has like an ounce of decency or humanity could never do perpetrate the crimes that they do.
• 22:39
  And so clearly they don't believe in that.
• 22:43
  But they knew that it's a very strong tool to be able to use and manipulate and for power.
• 22:49
  Unfortunately, dictators use these
• 22:53
  these type of things as a mean to be able to, you know, just strengthen their power.
• 23:02
  It has been, it has seen, you can see it throughout history from the Middle Ages till today.
• 23:06
  But also like for instance, you know, you see a lot of parallels even with regimes or dictatorships that they seem to differ one another in one thing or another, but at the end
• 23:17
  they have the same core systems.
• 23:20
  Like for instance, when you compare it to the time of the Shah.
• 23:23
  The Shah was a classical dictator who was brought in by foreign powers.
• 23:28
  So he had that backing, but
• 23:30
  He also needed something to just, you know, strengthen his grip on power.
• 23:35
  So what did he say?
• 23:36
  He used to say he is, he has a divine calling to be the king of Iran and he has been the chosen one.
• 23:43
  He called himself the shadow of God on earth.
• 23:47
  And Khomeini called himself the soul of God on earth.
• 23:50
  So, I mean, it's the same thing.
• 23:51
  And in fact, the reason that the mullahs were able to come
• 23:56
  into power after the fall of the Shah is because during the time of Muhammad Zopah Al-Avi, the number of mosques in Iran went from 500 to 5,000 because he needed the clergy to back
• 24:12
  his rule.
• 24:13
  So he extended that network because that was was legitimizing his rule.
• 24:19
  Like even if you look at the names in this family, like all the male names, it's all has
• 24:26
  the name Reza in it.
• 24:27
  Reza is the eighth Shia ema who is buried in Mashhad which is the holy city in Iran.
• 24:35
  So he wanted to make that direct connection that we are the descendants of you know that that
• 24:42
  that one Imam was Iranian, you know what I mean, making those connections.
• 24:46
  So that's why his father's name was Reza and then his name is Mama Reza and then his brother was like Gholam Reza and this and now his son's name is Reza, the other one was
• 24:56
  Ali Reza.
• 24:56
  So they wanted to make sure that they have that word in it to make that connection.
• 25:01
  And so that is, you know, the same.
• 25:05
  principles and so that's why a lot of Iranians say that he you know Khomeini was truly the the true heir to the throne of the Shah because
• 25:16
  they had been given free hands to be able to grow while all the organization, all those you know progressive movements that have formed in Iran after the coup d'etat against Dr.
• 25:27
  Mossadeb when they realized that you know peacefully or with you know just trying to reform the system we're not going to get anywhere because then they will do a coup d'etat
• 25:36
  like they they did to eliminate Dr.
• 25:38
  Mossadeb and after that it was the rule of the SAVAK everything was forbidden any organization association all of it was forbidden
• 25:45
  then the country became a one party state.
• 25:49
  The Shah said if it's, you know, the Ras al-Khais party is the only party, if you don't like it, either leave the country or you're going to be arrested.
• 25:55
  So that was like the atmosphere.
• 25:57
  So these progressive movements that formed, they were working underground.
• 26:02
  Most of them, the, you know,
• 26:05
  the top of all these organizations were all executed by the Shah and the ones who were remaining, they were imprisoned during the time of the revolution.
• 26:14
  The message of their movements was was spreading throughout Iran, especially among the youth in Iran.
• 26:20
  But the reality is that by the time they were released from prison Khomeini already had.
• 26:28
  his foot in the door and he was already in that position because he had been in exile in Iraq and had gone to Paris six months before the revolution and there there were
• 26:40
  negotiations made with him and western governments and it was the cold war era so they figured well you know he's a mullah so at end of the day he's going to he's not going to
• 26:52
  be you know giving in to the USSR so maybe it's to our benefit then these
• 26:58
  of revolutionary progressive movements who are against the fact that we have meddled in their country so much.
• 27:04
  So they might have fined a leniency to USSR or something like that.
• 27:09
  And unfortunately, people, everyone have been paying the price for that foreign intervention for 47 years now.
• 27:14
  But actually they've been paying the price for foreign intervention for a hundred years now since, I mean, the path that we each one of them was also brought in through foreign
• 27:24
  intervention.
• 27:25
  Can you explain, I think people.
• 27:29
  sort of don't quite understand that history.
• 27:32
  don't know if it's worthwhile describing all right now, but maybe you hear
• 27:37
  at least in sort of Western media, sometimes there's a focus on I think it's the son of the Shah or something as a temporary leader or whatever.
• 27:49
  What might a post Islamic revolutionary regime, etc.
• 27:56
  look like and how maybe you don't know because it's not happening, but maybe you know what what can a potential future look like?
• 28:06
  a certain element that I think maybe people find interesting to know.
• 28:13
  The reality is that first of all the people we run have made very clear that they don't want a return to monarchy.
• 28:24
  uh One of the slogans, especially in the universities in Iran, is neither the crown nor the turban freedom and equality.
• 28:32
  or like for instance, down with the oppressor, be it the Shah or the mullahs.
• 28:36
  The reality is that we're not stuck between choosing between bad and worse, like the current regime being worse and then that one being bad.
• 28:45
  We're not stuck between choosing between the current status quo or the previous dictatorship.
• 28:51
  want to move forward, especially in the 21st century, I think the era of, you know, hereditary rule has come to an end.
• 28:59
  And we, the people, we all want to move forward to a secular democratic republic.
• 29:04
  And those are the three key elements.
• 29:07
  So secular, separation of religion and state, so no more laws.
• 29:13
  democracy, which was against all forms of dictatorship, and a republic against monarchy.
• 29:19
  So secular democratic republic is what they're asking for.
• 29:22
  So there's a third option on the table.
• 29:25
  But in general, so you know, the Iranian resistance uh has created the National Council of Resistance of Iran is actually a parliament in exile.
• 29:34
  It was created in July 1981.
• 29:37
  After
• 29:38
  brutal crackdown on the protesters on June 20th, 1981.
• 29:43
  So one month later, this was formed because they realized that
• 29:47
  Now that we, the regime has shut all avenues of being able to create reform within this new government, we have to overthrow this government.
• 29:58
  And to overthrow it, we need to form a coalition.
• 30:02
  Everyone needs to come together.
• 30:05
  That unity, that solidarity is important.
• 30:07
  And so the National Council of Resistance of Iran was formed.
• 30:11
  And today the National Council of Resistance of Iran has about 500 members.
• 30:16
  25 different committees, 52 % of which are women in the National Council of Resistance of Iran and the president-elect for the interim government, which is a, you know, we have a
• 30:27
  provisional government outline, but the president-elect for the interim government is also a woman, her name is Maryam Majabi and she's the leader of this movement.
• 30:36
  The provisional government set forth by the NCRI, it would be in charge for about six months and then there will be free elections where people choose a assembly.
• 30:45
  That assembly will be in charge of running matters of the country, but also coming up with a new constitution of Iran.
• 30:52
  And then that constitution would be put to a vote by the people, like direct vote.
• 30:57
  And
• 30:58
  then based on that finalized constitution and the new republic will be formed and free elections will be held based on the rules of that new republic.
• 31:07
  So that is the whole process.
• 31:09
  The main concentration of the NCRI from day one has been the transfer of sovereignty to the people of Iran.
• 31:17
  And that is all we are working towards.
• 31:20
  And I think that one of the strongest...
• 31:24
  strengths, I guess, of this movement is the fact that it has withstood the test of time.
• 31:31
  Because 47 years of, you 45 years in July, it'll be 45 years that the NCRI has been formed.
• 31:38
  Through thick and thin, through all of the ups and downs, they've been able to
• 31:45
  stand, stick to their principles and values.
• 31:47
  And I think that's very important because right now these days we see people changing their messaging like with the wind, literally.
• 31:54
  uh But this movement has always stood by its principles and values, even if it's not pocketed, but that is to the benefit of the people of Iran.
• 32:03
  So at a time that people of Iran have unfortunately had their trust betrayed time and time again, to have that, to know like,
• 32:11
  these people who have dedicated decades of their lives only seeking freedom for Iran because if they were seeking power, if they were seeking name recognition, they were
• 32:25
  seeking becoming rich or something, that there were other avenues that they could go into and be able to get that.
• 32:32
  For instance, we had a women's conference for International Women's Day and one thing that was very interesting to me in one of the side workshops,
• 32:41
  actually one of the prominent women who was there.
• 32:45
  she was speaking about Mrs.
• 32:47
  Rajavi as president-elect of this movement who has been trailblazer really in the issue of women's empowerment.
• 32:55
  That is something that is extraordinary what has been accomplished in this movement because like for instance in the MEK the entire leadership council of this of the MEK have
• 33:07
  been women since 1993 till today and
• 33:12
  like all the secretary generals since 1989 have been women.
• 33:16
  Because we believe women are the force for change, especially because this regime is a misogynist regime.
• 33:22
  You have to be able to counter it and be able to create equity to then be able to create equality.
• 33:29
  So this is like the whole process.
• 33:31
  And so she was addressing this issue and she said, you know, I was thinking the other day that Mrs.
• 33:36
  Rajari has been joined this movement when she was 19.
• 33:41
  And that means over five, now it's like five decades that every single day of her life has been dedicated to the fight for freedom.
• 33:49
  That kind of dedication is not something that.
• 33:53
  comes easy, especially when you have that responsibility on your own shoulders.
• 33:59
  It's not just being a member of the movement, you have the responsibility of this revolution on your shoulders or creating this change on your shoulders.
• 34:07
  And I think that is something that people around have learned to see and be able to trust, even though this movement has been the number one target of propaganda.
• 34:17
  with annually the regime spending millions of dollars in just on propaganda against this movement because they see them as the main obstacle in their path.
• 34:28
  But I think that that is something that's really important.
• 34:31
  And on February 28th, actually, Mr.
• 34:34
  Rajavi announced again that, you know, that
• 34:38
  the provisional government is ready to take up that responsibility and for the safe and transfer of sovereignty to the people of Iran.
• 34:48
  And so I think that that stands.
• 34:50
  The other thing is that I think it's very important to understand
• 34:57
  know, the history behind everything.
• 35:00
  That usually puts things into perspective.
• 35:02
  You just mentioned we can't go into a lot of detail right now just because of the time, but like I said, if you look in the last hundred years, the people of Iran time and time
• 35:12
  again, they have suffered from foreign intervention.
• 35:15
  That's why from
• 35:18
  22 years ago, Mrs.
• 35:19
  Rajarishi had a speech at the European Parliament and she said, know, the solution to Iran is neither war nor appeasement because democracy can't be installed in the country as to
• 35:32
  come from the people.
• 35:33
  And we have the, you know, unfortunate experience of foreign intervention in our country.
• 35:41
  But appeasement will also finally lead to a war because one day you'll reach a point of no return and unfortunately it will come.
• 35:51
  to interrupt you.
• 35:52
  Do you think the appeasement is what led to this current situation?
• 35:57
  Yes, completely.
• 35:59
  I mean, for 40 years, the Iranian regime has been, you know, has gained from the policy of appeasement and it has just emboldened the regime time and time again.
• 36:09
  um And it has just added to the lifeline of this regime.
• 36:14
  But so that is why we are where we are today, in fact.
• 36:18
  But there's a third option here too, and that is supporting the people of Iran and their organized resistance to bring about change.
• 36:25
  Because the people of Iran feel like we have the capability and the potential to bring about that change.
• 36:31
  But unfortunately, due to the policy of appeasement, we're the ones who have been used as the bargaining chip at the table for decades.
• 36:39
  So just imagine if that policy of appeasement wasn't in place, well, the regime would have been overthrown many, many years ago.
• 36:46
  But
• 36:46
  now is also, I mean, I think maybe a lot of people back then, you know, they would tell, you know, when we said this, because we've been saying this for 22 years, it's not just
• 36:56
  today.
• 36:58
  And when we said war is not the solution, people didn't really understand.
• 37:02
  And we're like, look, even if you look at it from a military perspective alone, I'm not even talking about principle and values and everything, because that's clearly war is not
• 37:13
  the solution.
• 37:14
  But
• 37:15
  Because war is not just as we've seen in the last month practically.
• 37:21
  It's not just hitting like the single building or that office or this.
• 37:26
  It has casualties.
• 37:28
  It has human casualties.
• 37:30
  has infrastructure casualties.
• 37:31
  has when you're fighting especially against the Iranian regime, which is the number one state sponsor of terrorism, it spreads out far beyond Iran's borders really quick.
• 37:42
  right.
• 37:43
  Yep.
• 37:43
  seeing in the region right now too.
• 37:45
  you know, understanding just even from a military perspective, look, Iran is not Venezuela because like, for instance, if you remove just Khomeini, which was eliminated on day one
• 37:56
  of this war.
• 37:57
  This regime doesn't fall and collapse because it has a apparatus intact.
• 38:02
  It has a structure.
• 38:03
  It's not like, for instance, the classical monarchy of the Shah.
• 38:07
  The minute the Shah escaped Iran two weeks later, the revolution was over.
• 38:12
  It had been completed.
• 38:13
  This is different.
• 38:14
  You remove hominy, the whole system is still intact and it's still doing its work.
• 38:19
  So that apparatus is there.
• 38:22
  On the other hand, Iran is also not Iraq or Afghanistan.
• 38:26
  Iran is three times the size of Iraq with four times the population.
• 38:30
  The terrain of Iran is very different.
• 38:32
  have mountains, extensive mountains in Iran.
• 38:36
  different areas of Iran and then we have the desert, have the sea, have jungles, everything.
• 38:42
  So troops on the ground is not very practical, especially with the large cities that Iran has.
• 38:48
  it would need, you know, urban warfare too.
• 38:52
  I mean, this is not something that's practical or doable.
• 38:55
  So really military intervention is not going to bring regime change in Iran.
• 39:02
  That regime change has to come from the people of Iran.
• 39:05
  When there are bombs over your head, that's very difficult to do.
• 39:08
  I mean, the reality is that this is the direction that the people of Iran were going in.
• 39:14
  after the uprisings in January, just five days before the start of the war, saw 250 members of resistance units.
• 39:24
  They targeted the headquarters of Homenay, which is the most secure location in all of Iran.
• 39:31
  And they were able to do that.
• 39:33
  That had a message for the people of Iran and for the regime.
• 39:37
  First of for the people of Iran, showed that the
• 39:40
  The most secure location of Iran in a time that they were on heightened security due to being afraid that the war is going to start any day, they were still pretty weak that they
• 39:51
  were able to carry out this operation.
• 39:54
  oh So the message to the people of Iran was the regime is in a much weaker position that it tries to present itself, especially after the massacre that they created in January in
• 40:04
  Iran.
• 40:05
  also the message was like people understood like, okay, this is going to be the new norm now.
• 40:09
  We have reached the phase that especially after that the IRGC had now been placed on the terrorist list by both the US, Canada and the European Union.
• 40:21
  Now is the time that we can actually fight back.
• 40:23
  against the IRGC because till then...
• 40:25
  Unfortunately, any act of resistance was marked by terrorism, even though it's resisting against brutal dictatorship.
• 40:35
  And so we were seeing those activities grow, but unfortunately right now that is very difficult.
• 40:41
  And so just to give you an understanding, there's this thing that the Iranian resistance has presented as a strategy for over a decade now.
• 40:51
  We call it resistance units.
• 40:53
  It means people
• 40:56
  who are local in their area, who form groups together, be it from two, three people to 20 people, and they are able to carry out different activities, be it raising awareness in
• 41:09
  society, keeping up the hope.
• 41:12
  and hope alive and keeping up the morale and you know even be it with graffiti, be it with coasters, be it with whatever kind of activities but also carrying out operations against
• 41:23
  the centers of repression like for instance in the last year from last March till this March I guess we could say
• 41:30
  they targeted 4092 centers of oppression, these resistance units.
• 41:36
  This is unfortunately something we don't hear about too much in the news, but this is actually what breaks fear in society.
• 41:46
  People are like, okay, so this can be done.
• 41:48
  ah One of the things that people said in regards to the uprisings in January was people on the ground, they're like, you know what, this time around it was very different.
• 41:58
  people, first of all, the protesters were on the offensive.
• 42:02
  Why was that?
• 42:03
  Because they've been seeing the activities of the resistance units throughout the last year and that they were like automatically we knew that we had to, you know, unarm the
• 42:14
  suppressive forces.
• 42:15
  We needed to, you know, protect one another.
• 42:19
  You could see organized, you know, structure in the protest.
• 42:25
  And this was the role of
• 42:26
  resistance units.
• 42:27
  Unfortunately, till right now, I mean over 50,000 people were detained during the uprisings.
• 42:33
  Many members of the resistance units were also detained but
• 42:37
  Over 2,000 of them have gone missing.
• 42:40
  So we're not really sure if they're among those who unfortunately were killed or they've been arrested.
• 42:45
  It hasn't been verified yet.
• 42:47
  So it came with a very grave price, but we see that.
• 42:53
  cultural resistance growing inside of Iran.
• 42:56
  like for instance, last year they carried out over 13,000 just activities of like, know, raising awareness, being, you know, with posters or being with, you know, graffiti on the
• 43:10
  walls or passing out pamphlets or whatever throughout the city.
• 43:14
  And so that is something that we have seen.
• 43:17
  And we also see like, for instance, certain elements that are very key, I think.
• 43:23
  Like if you look at Zaheddin, which is in the southern, southeast Iran, is unfortunately where Iran's ethnicities are unfortunately one of those who are the most targeted by this
• 43:38
  regime and always have been, I guess they've always bared the
• 43:45
  discrimination and suffering under all the dictatorships in Iran in the past century practically.
• 43:53
  But in the southeast of Iran, have the Baluch ethnicity, which is in Sistan Baluchistan or Zahedan.
• 44:01
  And then we have, for instance, the Kurds.
• 44:03
  And then on the west side of Iran, and then we have, for instance, the Turks and everything else.
• 44:09
  And Zohedin since the 2022 uprisings, every Friday, the people of have been turning the Friday prayers into demonstrations.
• 44:19
  And it has continued for 173 weeks.
• 44:23
  That dedicate that kind of, you know, continuation, despite being unfortunate, if you look at the number of people who were executed in 2025, there were 2200 executions carried out
• 44:36
  by the regime in 2025.
• 44:39
  Most of them, if you look, they're either from the Baluch ethnicity or from the Kurds, and then it's political prisoners.
• 44:48
  So even though they've paid a grave price for it, but this continuation, I think these are very important to understand.
• 44:54
  And that is what has kept the flame of resistance alive throughout Iran.
• 44:59
  And that's why we believe that even today, despite everything that has happened, one message is clear.
• 45:05
  The people of Iran, even before the start
• 45:07
  of the war they were saying you know the regime suppressed the uprisings but it's not over.
• 45:12
  they're continuing.
• 45:14
  And we saw that like one week before the start of the war on February 22nd, university classes resumed on, you know, on campus classes, because everything had been put on online
• 45:26
  to be able to shut down the universities, because they're they're usually the hotbed of, you know, protest.
• 45:32
  The day that the classes were resumed, protests began on university campuses.
• 45:38
  And so the regime had to shut down the universities again, because they could
• 45:42
  control it.
• 45:43
  So the regime knew that look this
• 45:48
  This is just like a powder keg just waiting to erupt at any moment.
• 45:52
  So it's like ticking time bomb right now.
• 45:55
  And that is what we're seeing on the ground really in Iran.
• 45:59
  And that's why the people of Iran believe that the solution to Iran is neither war nor appeasement.
• 46:03
  We have the potential.
• 46:05
  We have the capability to bring about that change.
• 46:08
  But unfortunately, until now, our hands have been tied due to the policy of appeasement and the fact that we've been used as bargaining chips at the table.
• 46:17
  with this regime, all we're asking, we're not asking for money, we're not asking for troops on the ground, we're not asking for anything, we're just asking you to stop the
• 46:24
  policy of appeasement, allow the people of Iran to take their destiny into their own hands.
• 46:29
  That is the message of Iranians.
• 46:32
  Wow, that's the sort of philosopher, therapists and political scientists and scientists in me are fighting each other for questions.
• 46:41
  And I'd love to talk to you again, maybe in a month or so to get more, I don't know, an update on all this.
• 46:47
  As we run out of time here, and thank you for explaining that I had never really heard that perspective before.
• 46:53
  Certainly you don't hear that in the Western media or at least
• 46:56
  North American media at least.
• 46:58
  Can you just talk a little bit about the energy and the attitude of?
• 47:05
  courage, persistence, hope, those type of energies which you've touched on throughout the conversation.
• 47:12
  How do you maintain that and how do you see other people being able to maintain that?
• 47:20
  I think that during these times, unity is very key and just supporting one another through difficult times.
• 47:28
  So I think that is something that we strive on and I think it's key to have.
• 47:34
  I also think that for me,
• 47:37
  and for many in the resistance, think the keeping your eye on the ball on the final goal, which is the freedom of the people of Iran and to make sure that we can truly be able to
• 47:51
  give the people of Iran that true democracy and freedom that they deserve.
• 47:57
  And it is their God given right that they have been denied for for a very long time.
• 48:03
  And
• 48:04
  to make sure that we can see that.
• 48:07
  I think that is like the greatest inspiration for me.
• 48:11
  think like that, I guess that would be the greatest accomplishment that I could ever wish for in my life to be able to give that to the people around to be able to see.
• 48:20
  you know, Iran really flourish into the true democracy that it has the potential to become.
• 48:27
  And just imagine, you know, the ripple effect that it can have in the world.
• 48:31
  And I think that's unfortunately one of the things that we suffer from too, because Iran has always played a very important geopolitical role.
• 48:38
  And there are those who don't necessarily want to see a independent, know, reviving Iran, a democracy in Iran, unfortunately, because Iran
• 48:49
  We are a country that's rich in natural resources, but I think the greatest asset that we have is our people, and Iran has the greatest brain drain in the world too.
• 48:58
  So just imagine if you look at right now, every practically all the top Fortune 500s and all the top institutes anywhere, you see Iranians at the top of it somewhere.
• 49:11
  ah There was a statistic given, I just heard it in December, that throughout every university, every single university in the US has at least one Iranian professor.
• 49:27
  And, you know, if you look like, for instance, when you look at NASA, like some of the heads of a lot of the departments are Iranians.
• 49:34
  So just imagine if these people could actually serve their own people or in their own country and Iran could flourish really fast.
• 49:40
  But unfortunately, we haven't had that possibility.
• 49:43
  And it's very tragic that the country that the first human rights cylinder comes from, the people of Iran are denied their most basic human rights.
• 49:53
  And I was actually working on a report a few months ago in
• 49:57
  I ran into a report from Amnesty International, their annual report from 1976.
• 50:03
  And at that time, Iran was the number one state in executions.
• 50:10
  And today, Iran is the number one state in executions too.
• 50:13
  And that is really sad, to be honest.
• 50:17
  And I hope that we could see it,
• 50:20
  doesn't have that.
• 50:23
  So you know the NCRI, Mrs.
• 50:24
  Vajrava has set forth a 10-point plan.
• 50:27
  It's kind of like the, I guess the cliff notes of the plan for the provisional government, but it calls for uh the abolition of the death penalty in Iran and all forms of torture.
• 50:40
  And I think that's something that our people really need.
• 50:42
  It calls for separation of religion and state.
• 50:45
  It calls for, you know,
• 50:47
  recognizing the rights of Iran's ethnicities and their autonomy, the cause for a non-nuclear Iran.
• 50:54
  And unfortunately right now, Iran is the number one state sponsor of terrorism.
• 50:58
  Just imagine if it was a stabilizing force instead of the destabilizing force that it is today with all the proxy groups and everything that it funds.
• 51:06
  But we hope to be able to see that dawn of a truly democratic Iran and hopefully
• 51:13
  hopefully we could set a precedent for others too and we could help the world toward a brighter future which I think everyone deserves.
• 51:26
  Agreed.
• 51:27
  Wow.
• 51:27
  Thank you so much.
• 51:30
  Well, I have to, I guess we have to stop talking.
• 51:34
  And my curiosity doesn't want to stop talking and asking you questions.
• 51:37
  So, thank you so much for sharing all of that with us.
• 51:40
  And I hope I get the opportunity to speak with you again.
• 51:44
  definitely look forward to it.
• 51:46
  Thank you and hopefully we will have better news for everyone next time.
• 51:51
  indeed.
• 51:53
  Thanks for listening to this episode of the State of Mind Podcast.
• 51:56
  Before you go, pick one idea from today's episode and practice it this week.
• 52:01
  Remember, live with courage, clarity, and compassion.
• 52:05
  Practice inner strength and develop within.
• 52:09
  If you enjoyed this episode, please like it, please follow and subscribe to the podcast, and if you feel so inclined, leave us a great five-star review.
• 52:20
  Please share this episode with someone who you think might find it helpful.
• 52:24
  I wish you all the very best.
• 52:25
  Take it easy.
• 52:27
  Peace out.