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Gunfighter Nation · Political Junkie Podcast

0:24
SPEAKER_00: For many, Melissa Hortman and her husband were beloved.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: Republicans in our state have come out very strong against this violence.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: And in fact,
0:33
Congressman Emmer and I led a bipartisan statement of every
0:38
single member of our
0:39
SPEAKER_00: delegation decrying this violence,
0:41
SPEAKER_00: calling it politically motivated,
0:44
SPEAKER_00: and saying there's no place for this in our politics.
0:46
So Senator Lee and I had a good discussion,
0:49
and I'm very glad he took it down.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: And I also thank my colleague, Senator Smith, for also
0:56
That was Amy Klobuchar speaking in the rotunda about her dismay
1:02
at Republican
1:03
responses to the slaying of several of her colleagues in the
1:08
Minnesota state
1:09
SPEAKER_01: legislature.
1:10
And we're going to return to that topic after we go through the
1:14
news today.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: But I'm Claire Potter.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm Neil J. Young.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: And we are just as distressed as Amy Klobuchar is.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: about what has become a gunfighter nation.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: So let's begin with the news roundup on Wednesday.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: So depressing, Neil.
1:37
SCOTUS delivered an unsurprising but distressing decision in
1:41
United States v.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Skirmeti,
1:44
the constitutional test for a Tennessee state law that bans
1:48
chemical or physical
1:49
SPEAKER_01: treatments for minors who seek to transition from one gender to another.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: It was a 6-3 decision.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: Surprise, surprise.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: And there's a key point.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: It does not ban the treatments or procedures.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: In other words, the law does not ban the treatments or procedures.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: It only bans them for transition for minors,
2:10
SPEAKER_01: which is how they got around the Equal Protection Clause.
2:15
I'm also going to be including for our listeners a response
2:18
from Samantha Williams,
2:19
SPEAKER_01: the parent who brought the case.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: But Neil, what's your response to this?
2:24
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think unsurprising is absolutely right.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: Nobody was expecting this court to rule differently.
2:31
I am really struck now the decision is out that this case was
2:36
pursued at all.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: And that's not to blame the victims, but it did seem like this was the
2:44
foregone conclusion of a decision um and so why plaintiffs
2:49
pursued this i i just am
2:51
SPEAKER_02: confused about that claire um you're right to note that this decision is
2:59
SPEAKER_02: It only addresses underage minors and their care,
3:05
but I think a lot of people are understandably concerned about
3:09
what sort of
3:10
precedent does this establish upon which further assaults on
3:17
LGBTQ rights can be
3:20
SPEAKER_02: developed from this court.
3:21
And I think this decision also stands sort of in contrast to a
3:26
lot of LGBTQ rights
3:28
SPEAKER_02: successes at the higher court.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: So does this mark some sort of turning point?
3:33
SPEAKER_02: Is it a standalone decision?
3:35
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: We shall see.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: What do you think, Claire?
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, I agree with you, Neil.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: And I think the
3:42
Vast majority of the world agrees with you that this was not a
3:45
good case.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: I guess I have conflicting responses.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: One is,
3:50
SPEAKER_01: as Samantha Williams says in her op-ed for The New York Times,
3:53
SPEAKER_01: that we're linking to what are parents to do?
3:56
SPEAKER_01: Right.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: They are now on their fourth or fifth state of doing...
4:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
4:02
SPEAKER_01: 500 mile round trips to get six months of medication,
4:08
SPEAKER_01: which maintains their daughter's health,
4:12
SPEAKER_01: but that's not transgender health.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: And,
4:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
4:17
children should have access to health care and getting it from
4:22
four or five states
4:23
SPEAKER_01: away is not
4:25
SPEAKER_01: health care.
4:26
I would also say it matches up with what adult women are
4:30
dealing with in abortion cases.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: So there is some convergence there.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: I would also say that it seems to me that there is a strategy here among
4:45
SPEAKER_01: Republicans,
4:45
which is if you're not banning transgender care for adults and
4:49
you're not banning
4:52
the drugs for other things which they haven't for example um
4:57
puberty blockers are
4:59
perfectly legal in tennessee for precocious puberty for her
5:04
suitness in girls for
5:05
gyne mastia in boys and so on and so what the state is
5:10
targeting is a particular
5:11
use and that is well within the health care prerogatives of the
5:15
state to do that so
5:18
SPEAKER_01: it was a messy messy case and i agree with you
5:21
that it does uh lay yet another precedent for attacks on lgbt
5:27
rights i also wonder
5:28
how it is going to mix with some of the speech cases coming
5:34
forward to the court
5:35
first amendment cases on book bans in schools and public
5:39
libraries because these
5:40
states too can argue we're not actually banning the books which
5:44
they're not they're
5:44
not like seizing them at the state lines and burning them in
5:47
piles they're simply
5:49
SPEAKER_01: saying they can't
5:51
be available to school-aged children and in some cases to
5:55
school-aged children
5:56
SPEAKER_01: without the permission of their parents.
5:59
So it is a tricky threading of the needle that is working for
6:05
Republicans right now.
6:06
SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
6:07
SPEAKER_02: I think the other thing that I was,
6:09
SPEAKER_02: well,
6:10
SPEAKER_02: you know,
6:10
the part that I found the most chilling about that parents
6:14
op-ed in the Times was
6:16
SPEAKER_02: also the fears around
6:20
You know,
6:20
so Trump this spring likened this treatment for underage
6:25
children to child abuse.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: And so the very,
6:30
SPEAKER_02: I think,
6:30
SPEAKER_02: real concerns on the parts of this parents and others like her that like,
6:34
SPEAKER_02: what does this mean?
6:35
SPEAKER_02: What might it mean?
6:36
SPEAKER_02: Should I worry about my child being taken away from me?
6:40
SPEAKER_02: Should I worry about being imprisoned?
6:42
SPEAKER_02: And I think all of those things are real possibilities.
6:45
SPEAKER_02: And I kind of can't imagine living under those fears.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I agree with you completely.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: And my heart goes out to all of them.
6:54
I think it also kind of conflicts with a lot of the parents'
7:01
rights discourse as well.
7:03
I mean,
7:03
these are parents who wish to do the best thing for their
7:06
children.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: They wish to have charge over their children's health care.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: And I had a little scuffle on X with someone in which I brought this up.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: I said, do you want the state to
7:17
SPEAKER_01: demand that your child be vaccinated.
7:21
And the person responded and said,
7:25
you know,
7:26
vaccination is not child abuse.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: This is child abuse.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: So the language of child abuse is being deployed over and over again.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: And I think
7:36
and this is sort of the theme of this show,
7:37
extremism shifts the conversation dramatically.
7:42
I just want to say one thing around that because I think that's
7:45
such a smart point
7:45
SPEAKER_02: that I hadn't put my finger on.
7:47
I've thought a lot about the discourse of parental rights
7:50
because I've written
7:51
SPEAKER_02: about it a lot and the sort of things I've looked at in the history of
7:54
SPEAKER_02: conservatism.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: Um,
7:56
SPEAKER_02: and you know,
7:57
SPEAKER_02: when I,
7:57
SPEAKER_02: whenever parental rights is invoked,
7:59
SPEAKER_02: my response has always been,
8:01
SPEAKER_02: you know,
8:01
SPEAKER_02: which parents,
8:02
SPEAKER_02: right?
8:03
SPEAKER_02: Um,
8:03
SPEAKER_02: because of course there are always competing,
8:06
SPEAKER_02: um,
8:07
SPEAKER_02: groups of parents who have different objectives,
8:09
SPEAKER_02: different sort of beliefs and different ideas about what should happen.
8:13
Um,
8:13
but the discourse of parental rights is this has been this
8:17
incredibly effective,
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um,
8:19
language in American politics to cover a lot of bases and to
8:24
get a lot of things
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SPEAKER_02: done around a very particular agenda.
8:26
But I think what will be really fascinating is if parental
8:30
rights discourse sort of
8:32
SPEAKER_02: gives way to the language of child abuse.
8:35
SPEAKER_02: Um,
8:35
SPEAKER_02: much as religious liberty language went away,
8:39
SPEAKER_02: um,
8:39
SPEAKER_02: for other sorts of discourses in the,
8:41
SPEAKER_02: in the,
8:41
SPEAKER_02: in recent decades,
8:43
SPEAKER_02: um,
8:43
because so much was pointed out that religious liberty wasn't
8:46
actually being
8:47
SPEAKER_02: broadly applied,
8:49
SPEAKER_02: um,
8:49
SPEAKER_02: but was like a narrow sort of a narrow political agenda.
8:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, so we shall see.
8:54
And obviously to invoke child abuse,
8:56
um,
8:57
is enormously powerful as well as a,
8:59
as a scare tactic.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: It is.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: All right,
9:04
SPEAKER_01: so in more bad news,
9:05
SPEAKER_01: on Tuesday,
9:06
New York City comptroller and mayoral primary candidate Brad
9:11
Lander became the
9:11
second Democratic politician detained by ICE as he was
9:15
escorting an immigrant out
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SPEAKER_01: of 26 Federal Plaza,
9:18
SPEAKER_01: which is where a lot of immigration hearings are held.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: Numerous Democrats, including Governor Kathy Hochul, defended him.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: Kathy Hochul actually went down
9:28
SPEAKER_01: to 26 Federal Plaza to retrieve Brad Lander,
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and she held a press conference in which she announced that his
9:36
arrest was
9:37
SPEAKER_01: bullshit.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: I've never heard Kathy Hochul use that kind of language.
9:42
And what's also interesting is that Kathy Hochul has now
9:45
elevated herself by doing this.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: He's a progressive.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: She's not.
9:50
Lander has described what happened to him,
9:54
which he has done several times before.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Apparently, escorting immigrants is a thing.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: You have someone who is documented, who is a citizen.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: Stay by the person in case something happens.
10:06
You walk them out of the building and hope that that will
10:11
shield them from being arrested.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: But right-wing media, of course, went berserk.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: with many people calling it a campaign stunt.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Now,
10:21
SPEAKER_01: I think it has,
10:21
SPEAKER_01: in fact,
10:22
SPEAKER_01: elevated his numbers a little bit,
10:24
SPEAKER_01: probably because more New Yorkers just know who Brad Lander is.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: But Neil, where are we heading with this stuff?
10:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think we're going to see a lot more of this happening.
10:33
I think back to Lander,
10:35
I don't think this is at all a campaign stunt on his part.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: I think he had been doing this.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, obviously he benefited from this sort of politically and that
10:45
SPEAKER_02: His name has been very much in the news,
10:46
and I think a lot of people rightly so in the city are admiring
10:52
what he's done
10:52
SPEAKER_02: here.
10:53
But this is clearly a tactic that the Trump administration is
10:58
happy to use and will
10:59
SPEAKER_02: continue to do so.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: was it Kristi Noem or Pam Bondi,
11:04
SPEAKER_02: one of the two of them,
11:05
like literally said within the last week or so that they are
11:08
going into democratic
11:09
SPEAKER_02: cities to liberate them from the democratic politicians.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: So they've said out loud exactly what they're gonna do.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: And that's gonna take different forms.
11:17
And one of them might be actually detaining and locking up
11:21
elected officials.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: Right, right, which is ugly.
11:26
It's very symbolic about what this administration does and does
11:30
not respect.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, part of what's a little scary about it as well
11:37
is Trump's apparent willingness not just to use this
11:41
militarized force of ICE and
11:45
SPEAKER_01: Homeland Security,
11:47
but his stated intention to put more federal troops in blue
11:52
cities to make sure
11:53
SPEAKER_01: this mandate is carried out.
11:55
And it's something he has,
11:57
I think,
11:57
shifted to more strongly after that sort of taco moment
12:03
SPEAKER_01: where he said,
12:04
SPEAKER_01: oh,
12:04
everyone in the hospitality industry and the agriculture
12:07
industry is upset that
12:08
SPEAKER_01: we're arresting their workers.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: So we're not going to do that anymore.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: We're actually just going to turn to the blue states.
12:15
In fact,
12:17
Washington is saying they are still arresting people at work
12:21
sites.
12:22
But he's really being,
12:24
he's pushing himself to make this much more direct attack on
12:28
blue cities.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: And it's also interesting that the other mayoral candidates,
12:37
SPEAKER_01: most prominently Andrew Cuomo,
12:39
SPEAKER_01: came out against it.
12:41
So it's something that has kind of unified the democratic field
12:45
in a way nothing
12:45
SPEAKER_01: else has so far.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: So we don't normally do foreign policy, Neil.
12:53
Neither of us are really experts on foreign policy,
12:56
just intelligent observers.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: But we can't ignore developments in the Middle East.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: Right after we broadcast last week,
13:03
Israel launched a series of air attacks on Iran that
13:06
decapitated its military
13:07
SPEAKER_01: leadership,
13:08
SPEAKER_01: damaged nuclear facilities,
13:10
SPEAKER_01: and killed at least two leading nuclear scientists.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: The possibility of U.S.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: involvement,
13:18
SPEAKER_01: which the president is toying with,
13:20
SPEAKER_01: he says he's going to make the decision in two weeks,
13:23
SPEAKER_01: has split the MAGA coalition.
13:26
with many of them urging Trump not to betray his America First
13:30
pledge to the American people.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: One of them is Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: who has loudly opposed intervention.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: On his ex-podcast, Tucker Carlson pilloried Ted Cruz and belittled him.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: Cruz is a traditional GOP Israel hawk.
13:50
And then there's bipartisan legislation that is making its way
13:53
through the House
13:54
SPEAKER_01: and the Senate,
13:54
SPEAKER_01: invoking the War Powers Act.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: Holy moly, Neil, what is going on here?
14:02
SPEAKER_02: A lot's happening, and I think this is a place where you see
14:06
SPEAKER_02: the sort of loose coalition that Trump was able to tie together,
14:12
SPEAKER_02: showing some of its divisions around obviously a big,
14:17
SPEAKER_02: important issue.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: And I think that especially to see that America first
14:24
for a large faction of Trump supporters really is a sort of
14:29
pure isolationism is
14:31
SPEAKER_02: fascinating to watch.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of things to be said here about different,
14:36
the sort of different factions of the different folks who are
14:40
making different
14:40
SPEAKER_02: cases here.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: I have to say, I was just,
14:44
in a real pickle watching the Carlson Cruise conversation
14:47
because,
14:48
you know,
14:49
right?
14:50
SPEAKER_02: Like,
14:50
SPEAKER_02: it's like,
14:50
SPEAKER_02: feels really weird to be like,
14:53
SPEAKER_02: really thrilled that Tucker Carlson is landing these punches because,
14:58
SPEAKER_02: you know,
14:59
SPEAKER_02: Ted Cruz is a very punchable figure,
15:02
SPEAKER_02: but then you're like,
15:03
SPEAKER_02: oh,
15:03
SPEAKER_02: but then this means I'm sort of like cozying up to Tucker Carlson.
15:07
And it's not necessarily that I even agree with Carlson's
15:10
position around this at
15:11
SPEAKER_02: all,
15:11
SPEAKER_02: but it just feels really good to see someone just eviscerate Cruz,
15:16
SPEAKER_02: like a smug person like Cruz.
15:21
I think obviously there's going to be Marjorie Taylor Greene is
15:26
going to do her
15:26
SPEAKER_02: stuff on Twitter.
15:30
the sort of serious-minded folks that are writing isolationist
15:34
pieces for foreign
15:35
SPEAKER_02: affairs probably isn't gonna have a huge effect.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: But someone like Tucker Carlson,
15:43
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
15:43
SPEAKER_02: that feels like it really might have an impact on this.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: And of course, Trump has no idea what he's doing.
15:50
The two-week deadline is just an expression of the fact that he
15:52
has no position on
15:53
SPEAKER_02: this to begin with.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: We shall see.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
15:57
SPEAKER_01: and there was a New York Times piece today that said,
16:00
SPEAKER_01: basically,
16:00
SPEAKER_01: have you noticed whenever Trump doesn't know what to do,
16:02
SPEAKER_01: he says he'll decide in two weeks.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: That seems to be his unit of time.
16:08
But let's pretend for a moment that we don't dislike these
16:14
people so much,
16:16
SPEAKER_01: that we can't look at them objectively.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: I have two observations.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: One is that Marjorie Taylor Greene has really matured.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: as a legislator.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't like her.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't like what she stands for.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: I don't like who she is,
16:31
SPEAKER_01: but she's taking a very,
16:33
very strong leadership position on an anti-war stance for the
16:38
party that is
16:40
SPEAKER_01: actually going to push her up the ladder with a certain group,
16:46
SPEAKER_01: I think.
16:47
Um,
16:47
my second response is I liked watching Tucker Carlson pillory
16:52
Ted Cruz as well.
16:54
And then I had this thought of like Tucker Carlson is like a
16:58
mouthpiece for Vladimir Putin.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: And,
17:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:01
it's part of where we've gotten with our media atmosphere and
17:05
the ways in which
17:06
SPEAKER_01: enemies of the United States have infiltrated the media atmosphere.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking,
17:11
am I listening to Tucker Carlson or am I listening to what
17:15
Tucker Carlson is being
17:16
SPEAKER_01: paid to say by Vladimir Putin,
17:19
SPEAKER_01: which makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: I know I'm not a conspiracy theorist,
17:24
but Tucker is awfully cozy with the Russians and it doesn't
17:29
really give him
17:31
SPEAKER_01: much of a platform for being credible on this issue.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: Completely so,
17:36
SPEAKER_02: even as I think he,
17:38
SPEAKER_02: you know,
17:39
one doesn't have to be a Putin puppet to expose Cruz's
17:43
ignorance around these
17:44
SPEAKER_02: issues,
17:45
SPEAKER_02: right?
17:45
SPEAKER_02: So I think that's where it's hard to know,
17:48
SPEAKER_02: you know,
17:49
SPEAKER_02: what here is sort of legitimate pushback to Cruz,
17:52
like Cruz not being able to tell you what the population of
17:56
Iran is seems like
17:57
SPEAKER_02: something a senator should know as they're
18:01
you know,
18:02
calling for it to be bombed off the face of the earth or
18:04
whatever.
18:05
SPEAKER_02: And also, Carlson is in the hands of Putin.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: So it's just a messy situation there and assessing things.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: I want to go back to your point about Green,
18:14
SPEAKER_02: though,
18:15
SPEAKER_02: because if you told me two,
18:17
SPEAKER_02: three years ago that Green would make herself into a
18:21
more legitimate political candidate and perhaps someone who
18:24
even has a better
18:25
SPEAKER_02: chance on the national stage via foreign policy issues,
18:29
SPEAKER_02: I would have thought you're absolutely crazy.
18:31
And yet it is fascinating that this is the ground upon which I
18:35
think she's made
18:36
SPEAKER_02: herself into some sort of,
18:38
she's presented herself in a much more serious form than she
18:42
has around other
18:43
SPEAKER_02: issues.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: And that's, I think that's a big surprise to me.
18:47
Yeah,
18:47
I agree with you,
18:48
and I think several things have been good for her.
18:51
One is her very shrewd decision to separate her fate from the
18:56
fate of Lauren Bobert.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: She did that about a year and a half,
19:01
SPEAKER_01: two years ago,
19:02
SPEAKER_01: and Bobert has almost disappeared from the map,
19:07
SPEAKER_01: and Green Star has risen.
19:09
The other thing that I think has been very good for her is to
19:12
have Matt Gaetz gone.
19:14
Because she and Gates were really good friends and they worked
19:17
together a lot.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: And he's just like a crazy, nasty motherfucker.
19:22
And so she has actually gained some legitimacy from the absence
19:27
of these other
19:28
SPEAKER_01: extreme figures from her orbit.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a great point.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: So,
19:35
SPEAKER_01: Neil,
19:36
SPEAKER_01: before we go on to our main focus for today,
19:39
which is the escalating political violence that actually
19:43
exploded in Minnesota last
19:46
SPEAKER_01: Saturday,
19:46
SPEAKER_01: I just do want to add one more news item,
19:49
which is another one of Elon Musk's rockets blew up this time
19:53
on the launching pad.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: in a huge fireball.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: There was a video of it on the New York Times,
19:59
SPEAKER_01: and it was,
20:00
SPEAKER_01: first of all,
20:01
SPEAKER_01: cool if you like to watch things blow up.
20:03
But really,
20:04
it's just sort of like a punctuation mark on Musk's endless
20:10
failures in 2025.
20:12
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that news.
20:15
But can you imagine seeing that and then going out to your
20:17
garage to get into your
20:18
SPEAKER_02: Tesla to drive to the supermarket?
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Or getting in one of Tesla's self-driving cars.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, baby.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, no.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: All right.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: So let's get to our main focus today.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: Last Saturday,
20:35
SPEAKER_01: Vance Bolter,
20:37
SPEAKER_01: a 57-year-old evangelical Christian and registered Republican,
20:41
SPEAKER_01: executed Democratic Speaker of the Minnesota House,
20:45
SPEAKER_01: Melissa Hortman,
20:46
SPEAKER_01: and her husband,
20:48
SPEAKER_01: Mark.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: May they rest in peace.
20:50
and also severely wounded Democratic State Senator John Hoffman
20:55
and his wife Yvette.
20:57
Apparently,
20:57
it was the Hoffman's daughter who called the police and
21:01
interrupted this spree.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: He had apparently been planning the attack for months.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: It obviously went off on No Kings Day, a perfect day to get a platform.
21:14
He was going to attack some of the No Kings protests in the
21:17
Twin Cities areas.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: He left behind a long list of other targets.
21:22
What is perhaps most chilling about this is that he disguised
21:27
himself as a policeman.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: He came to the door dressed as a policeman.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: Who doesn't open the door for a cop?
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Neil.
21:37
Yeah,
21:37
I think that honestly,
21:39
doesn't that scare everyone listening to it?
21:41
SPEAKER_02: Because you just imagine yourself being in the same situation.
21:45
And I think it's obviously the fears around that are heightened
21:50
by the moment we're
21:52
SPEAKER_02: in,
21:52
SPEAKER_02: in which we have masked
21:56
authorities,
21:58
pulling people into vans and detaining them and deporting them
22:01
and all the rest.
22:02
So there's a moment in which law enforcement feels really
22:06
lawless because of the
22:07
SPEAKER_02: way in which and we talked about this,
22:08
SPEAKER_02: I think,
22:09
SPEAKER_02: last week.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: So much of it is being done
22:14
SPEAKER_02: in sort of disguise or under sort of,
22:17
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:18
not open and sort of transparent in the ways that I think we
22:20
would expect.
22:21
So that just feels very chilling that he tapped into that as a
22:27
way to pull this off.
22:30
SPEAKER_02: And just the sort of trusting nature of any person,
22:33
SPEAKER_02: especially I think an elected official going to their door and seeing,
22:36
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:36
SPEAKER_02: a person who seems to be a law enforcement officer,
22:41
SPEAKER_02: that that would be the last thing they would expect.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
22:46
And,
22:46
you know,
22:47
you can go online and buy police gear,
22:49
which he apparently did.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
22:51
the first reports that came out said that he was a private
22:54
security guy and linked
22:56
SPEAKER_01: him to a couple of companies that seemed to be doing very well.
22:59
That turned out not to be true,
23:01
as early reports are often not true nowadays.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: He was sort of a marginalized figure economically.
23:11
suffered from depression,
23:12
it looks like,
23:13
was a Donald Trump voter,
23:15
is a registered Republican.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: Not that that means you're a violent person, right?
23:22
SPEAKER_01: So there's a certain kind of person who is violent,
23:25
SPEAKER_01: who is a registered Republican,
23:27
SPEAKER_01: who then turns to this kind of activity for whatever reason.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: And that's really something we've got to figure out as a society, Neal.
23:36
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: But also,
23:39
SPEAKER_02: you know,
23:39
SPEAKER_02: the immediate rush by so many folks to brand him as a Marxist and,
23:45
SPEAKER_02: you know,
23:45
SPEAKER_02: a radical left.
23:46
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: And this is, you know, example one million of the violence of the left.
23:52
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that exploded on Twitter.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: It didn't really make sense,
23:58
given the context of what we even those early clues we knew
24:01
about what was
24:03
SPEAKER_02: happening there.
24:05
about this character and the folks that were murdered and the
24:13
attempted murders.
24:15
But yet that narrative took hold really quickly on Twitter on
24:20
the right and being put forward by
24:23
SPEAKER_02: even someone like Senator Mike Lee from Utah.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: So these are not just like crazy conspiracy folks in basements,
24:29
SPEAKER_02: you know,
24:30
SPEAKER_02: with like Twitter accounts that have 12 followers.
24:33
SPEAKER_02: This is like even including a US senator putting forth these ideas.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Neil, let's talk about Mike Lee for a second.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: What happened to Mike Lee?
24:46
SPEAKER_01: You know,
24:46
SPEAKER_01: I've never liked Mike Lee,
24:48
SPEAKER_01: but I always thought he,
24:51
SPEAKER_01: well,
24:51
SPEAKER_01: he's a religious person for one thing.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: He's a devout Mormon.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: He seemed to be sort of a garden variety conservative.
25:00
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: And he has now seized on this very MAGA style.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
25:07
SPEAKER_01: even the account that he was tweeting from is called Based Mike Lee,
25:11
SPEAKER_01: not Senator Mike Lee or Michael Lee of Utah or something like that.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: It's this sort of slangy gamer term.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: What happened to this man?
25:22
SPEAKER_02: You know, it was interesting.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: I was seeing on Twitter someone who said,
25:27
and I can't remember if it was a political reporter from Utah
25:29
or just from DC who
25:31
SPEAKER_02: knows Lee well and basically was like,
25:35
SPEAKER_02: he has been broken by Twitter.
25:38
Like this guy was sort of self-radicalized on social media and
25:43
was a different
25:45
SPEAKER_02: person altogether 10 years ago.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: Sort of, as you said, a garden variety Republican.
25:51
SPEAKER_02: Um,
25:52
and who radicalized himself on Twitter because he was in this
25:55
sort of feedback
25:56
SPEAKER_02: loop,
25:58
SPEAKER_02: um,
25:58
where what was working to get him the most attention was the
26:02
most radical,
26:03
SPEAKER_02: um,
26:04
SPEAKER_02: and hateful and ugly stuff that he put forward.
26:06
And that apparently like this person's assessment of him sort
26:11
of on a psychological
26:12
level was that he's a person who desperately needs approval and
26:15
needs recognition
26:16
SPEAKER_02: and wasn't getting that from sort of,
26:18
SPEAKER_02: you know,
26:19
SPEAKER_02: as sort of,
26:19
SPEAKER_02: you know,
26:19
SPEAKER_02: uh,
26:20
SPEAKER_02: an important Republican senator,
26:22
SPEAKER_02: wasn't really getting that from the power players in Washington,
26:25
but started getting it once he went in this sort of off-kilter
26:31
direction on
26:32
SPEAKER_02: Twitter.
26:33
And I think like what you said,
26:35
the Twitter handle is,
26:37
that's the best evidence here.
26:40
Like that a US senator would call himself based as part of his
26:47
Twitter handle
26:48
SPEAKER_02: is all we need to know about really what's happened here and who he is.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree with you.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: And just to sort of offer some context,
26:58
SPEAKER_01: as you just did,
26:59
SPEAKER_01: Neil,
27:00
I would also wonder if being paired with Mitt Romney had
27:05
something to do with it,
27:06
SPEAKER_01: because Mitt Romney,
27:07
SPEAKER_01: of course,
27:08
SPEAKER_01: was sort of more of a centrist Republican for many years.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: People may recall he was governor of Massachusetts many years ago.
27:16
He established the health care system in Massachusetts that
27:20
Obamacare was based on.
27:23
And then,
27:23
of course,
27:24
ran for president and failed in 2012 and came back as a
27:29
senator.
27:30
So he was the junior senator from Utah,
27:32
but he was the more senior political figure to Mike Lee.
27:36
And I wonder whether that kind of dynamic where Lee decided he
27:41
had to differentiate
27:43
SPEAKER_01: himself sharply from Romney by becoming...
27:47
SPEAKER_01: this other person?
27:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
27:49
I guess what I'm asking you is how conscious do we think it is
27:53
and how unconscious
27:54
SPEAKER_01: do we think it is?
27:56
SPEAKER_02: The differentiation from Romney?
27:58
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
27:58
I think it's probably there a lot because I also think that
28:02
this brings out sort of
28:04
SPEAKER_02: factionalism within Mormonism too.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: So it's not just Republicanism we're talking about,
28:08
SPEAKER_02: but it's also sort of divisions with Mormonism.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: And I think
28:11
you know romney represents um sort of east coast establishment
28:17
um elite mormonism
28:19
which there is a long robust history of that and lee lee first
28:23
of all is an
28:24
incredibly important mormon last name almost as important as
28:28
young and smith um so
28:30
tracing himself didn't know that yeah so this is like one of
28:33
those early names that
28:35
SPEAKER_02: you know is a
28:37
has high status in Utah and certainly would trace you back to
28:40
the pioneer tradition.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: But also has,
28:44
SPEAKER_02: from what I understand,
28:46
Mike Lee himself has sort of operated more in the most right
28:49
wing factions of Utah
28:53
SPEAKER_02: Mormonism.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: And so I think there's sort of multiple things happening here.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: And
29:02
SPEAKER_02: It also deserves to be said again, just what an ugly thing he did.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: And I thought it meant a lot that,
29:07
and also I think it's telling that the two senators who
29:10
directly confronted him
29:11
SPEAKER_02: were both women.
29:13
SPEAKER_02: But obviously, I think it's so honorable that they did so.
29:16
But I do think it's telling that it was two women who actually
29:19
went to speak to him
29:20
SPEAKER_02: and to say,
29:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
29:21
SPEAKER_02: this really is beyond the pale.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: This is in the case of,
29:26
SPEAKER_02: I think,
29:26
SPEAKER_02: actually,
29:27
both of the women who went to talk to him knew the victims
29:31
directly and said,
29:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
29:33
what you've done is just disgusting and hurtful for the
29:36
families and for all of
29:37
SPEAKER_02: Minnesotans.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
29:41
SPEAKER_01: Minnesota is a huge state,
29:43
but I think people don't really understand what a small
29:45
political community it is.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: And that's always been true of Minnesota,
29:50
SPEAKER_01: particularly in what is the Democratic Party there,
29:54
SPEAKER_01: which is the Farmer Labor Democratic Party.
29:57
and so the two senators amy klobuchar former um former
30:02
presidential candidate and
30:04
tina smith who was originally appointed to replace al franken i
30:09
believe was was she
30:11
not that's right and and then was re-elected in her own right
30:14
uh correct they did
30:17
SPEAKER_01: go and face him down there was actually a picture online of
30:22
SPEAKER_01: Tina Smith,
30:23
SPEAKER_01: who looks like maybe she's about five feet tall or something,
30:27
standing ramrod straight talking to Mike Lee and Mike Lee
30:31
looming over her in this
30:33
SPEAKER_01: really sort of aggressive,
30:36
SPEAKER_01: super masculine in not a good way fashion.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: And Amy Klobuchar,
30:44
SPEAKER_01: who we heard at the top of the show,
30:48
SPEAKER_01: also said that the entire Minnesota delegation,
30:52
SPEAKER_01: Democrats and Republicans,
30:55
SPEAKER_01: sent a letter to Lee saying that this was unacceptable.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: So we're seeing a little bit of bipartisanship.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: People talk about Minnesota nice.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's Minnesota nice.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: I think it was Minnesota honorable, Minnesota respectable.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: Minnesota, what the hell happened to our politics?
31:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: So if those senators going to Mike Lee was not enough today,
31:23
the New York Times delivered a stinging rebuke to Donald Trump
31:27
for having fomented
31:28
SPEAKER_01: political violence against politicians in both parties.
31:32
And basically,
31:32
the New York Times has said,
31:34
you know,
31:34
it isn't just Democrats getting attacked.
31:36
Although Democrats are attacked more,
31:39
women and people of color are attacked more.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: more,
31:44
but that it's Donald Trump who made political violence
31:48
acceptable and made it
31:50
SPEAKER_01: acceptable for other politicians to ignore it,
31:53
SPEAKER_01: to shrug their shoulders at it.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: In this case,
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Donald Trump was on an airplane coming back from the G7,
32:01
SPEAKER_01: I think,
32:02
and he first posted a long rambling repudiation of the violence
32:06
on Truth Social.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: And you think, well, it's better than last time.
32:10
And then when asked by a journalist whether he was going to
32:15
call Minnesota Governor
32:17
SPEAKER_01: Tim Walz to say he was so sorry it happened,
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Trump said no.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: He said it was a waste of time.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: And then he went on to insult Tim Walz,
32:27
SPEAKER_01: who was,
32:27
SPEAKER_01: of course,
32:28
SPEAKER_01: the vice presidential candidate for the Democrats in 2024.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Neil, why would it be so hard for Donald Trump
32:39
to express sympathy in a situation like this because he's never
32:44
done so before in
32:45
his life and that is a core human quality that he does not
32:49
possess in any measure
32:51
um so we shouldn't be surprised at this at all we should say
32:54
this is just the
32:56
latest example of something he's shown us over and over again
32:59
um and also you know
33:02
it's like he has one little piece of information that he gets
33:05
from the most you
33:06
SPEAKER_02: know
33:07
SPEAKER_02: right wing media sources that he has,
33:09
SPEAKER_02: which is that and this was taking off on Twitter,
33:13
SPEAKER_02: was that Tim Walsh appointed this guy and they were friends.
33:17
And this is all Tim Walsh's fault because the the killer was on
33:22
some sort of,
33:23
SPEAKER_02: you know,
33:23
government council or something that he'd been appointed to by
33:27
the previous
33:28
SPEAKER_02: governor.
33:29
SPEAKER_02: And Waltz has had, you know, reappointed him and some, you know,
33:35
SPEAKER_02: just, you know, routine act that one does as a governor.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: Um,
33:40
SPEAKER_02: but of course this is all getting twisted around and,
33:42
SPEAKER_02: and it's just the perfect nugget that,
33:44
SPEAKER_02: that Trump needs to sort of,
33:46
SPEAKER_02: you know,
33:46
SPEAKER_02: validate,
33:48
SPEAKER_02: um,
33:48
SPEAKER_02: the decision around here,
33:49
but all of this boils down to the fact that like Trump
33:52
possesses no empathy and
33:54
SPEAKER_02: sees walls,
33:54
SPEAKER_02: not as another human and,
33:57
SPEAKER_02: uh,
33:58
SPEAKER_02: you know,
33:59
SPEAKER_02: the governor of Minnesota.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: And this is just something that one does in a leadership position,
34:06
SPEAKER_02: but it's his former adversary.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's really stunning,
34:11
SPEAKER_01: actually,
34:12
that someone who has as much media experience as Trump can't
34:18
even summon an I'm
34:20
SPEAKER_01: sorry this happened in person,
34:23
SPEAKER_01: speaking extemporaneously.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: You know, most of us could do that.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Even really horrible people could do that.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: I remember, and this, of course, takes us back a ways,
34:34
SPEAKER_01: When Steve Scalise was shot on the baseball field,
34:39
SPEAKER_01: the congressional baseball teams were practicing,
34:42
SPEAKER_01: and an anti-Republican guy showed up and started shooting,
34:47
SPEAKER_01: and Steve Scalise could have died from the injuries he received.
34:53
And the outpourings of affection and concern from Democrats
34:58
were overwhelming.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: We just really didn't see that from Republicans at all.
35:04
Maybe it wasn't elevated in the media,
35:06
but I didn't see it on social media.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: Everybody seemed to be following Trump's lead.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: What does this do to the Republicans as a party, Neil?
35:14
SPEAKER_02: It's so, so toxic.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
35:16
I don't think we can ever I don't think there's a record of
35:19
Trump ever saying the
35:20
SPEAKER_02: words I'm sorry publicly.
35:22
This is a man who when 9-11 happened and literally the
35:27
buildings were collapsing on
35:28
SPEAKER_02: live television,
35:29
SPEAKER_02: he was interviewed and was talking about himself and his own.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: the ways he had been wronged and how he knew things.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: He has never once expressed any basic human empathy towards others.
35:41
And that's one thing for it to sort of corrupt his own life and
35:46
his own relationships.
35:47
But for that to become the spirit and culture of an entire
35:52
political party,
35:52
SPEAKER_02: as he has more and more influence over the ways in which they act,
35:56
SPEAKER_02: is hugely damaging,
35:58
SPEAKER_02: not just to the GOP,
35:59
but to our whole body politic and the way that things operate
36:03
in this country
36:04
SPEAKER_02: politically.
36:05
That folks are scared or they don't believe at all that they
36:07
can express those
36:08
things because they too will get the wrath of Trump or Trump's
36:12
followers who think
36:13
that this is now to express sadness over an American being
36:18
murdered is to be woke
36:20
SPEAKER_02: or to be soft or to be
36:24
SPEAKER_02: anti-MAGA.
36:26
It's really ugly what his own ugliness has done to infect an
36:32
entire party.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: I think that's right.
36:36
And I think there's a sort of crumbling of the MAGA narrative
36:39
around guns,
36:40
too.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
36:41
SPEAKER_01: if someone shows up at your door presenting as a policeman,
36:47
SPEAKER_01: you don't answer the door armed.
36:50
SPEAKER_03: Right.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: That would actually just be a terrible, terrible idea.
36:54
I don't even know that much about guns,
36:56
and I know that that's a terrible idea.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: So the MAGA narrative that if we were all armed,
37:02
SPEAKER_01: none of these things would happen is,
37:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
37:06
SPEAKER_01: none of us really believe that who are not part of the gun lobby,
37:10
SPEAKER_01: but it's just paper thin.
37:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: Right?
37:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
37:17
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
37:18
So the other thing I just sort of wanted to point to is I sort
37:24
of feel like so many
37:25
of these things are happening that there isn't enough time to
37:31
pause on any of them.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think that because,
37:36
SPEAKER_01: first of all,
37:37
SPEAKER_01: on the same day that the Minnesota legislators were targeted,
37:45
SPEAKER_01: There were not one,
37:47
SPEAKER_01: but two shootings in Utah,
37:50
SPEAKER_01: one at a No Kings protest in which security,
37:57
SPEAKER_01: people had come to the protest armed to protect the protesters,
38:03
SPEAKER_01: then turned around and shot the guy who was shooting.
38:07
The only person who was killed was actually killed by one of
38:10
the security people.
38:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's one horrible thing that happened.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: There was a second shooting in Utah at some kind of festival.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: A gunman just showed up.
38:21
And then on Wednesday,
38:22
the Democratic mayor of Memphis,
38:24
whose name is Paul Young.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: Paul Young is not just a Democrat.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: He is also black.
38:30
um confronted a 25 year old white man in his in his yard a guy
38:36
who had just like
38:37
come over the fence and knocked on the door he's a guy named
38:41
trenton abston he was
38:43
armed with a stun gun a rope and a duct tape now now he said
38:49
that he was just
38:50
coming to talk too young about high crime in the city but he
38:55
seems to have come to
38:57
SPEAKER_01: kidnap him um
39:01
SPEAKER_01: I just feel we're becoming immune to these things.
39:04
You see a news item and then you just go on to the next thing
39:08
when each of them
39:09
SPEAKER_01: would have just stopped the clock back in 2005.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: Completely.
39:14
SPEAKER_02: I mean, one of the things that deserves to be included in this
39:19
conversation about political violence is a major event that
39:23
happened not that long
39:23
SPEAKER_02: ago,
39:24
SPEAKER_02: which was the arson attack on Governor's Mansion in Pennsylvania,
39:31
which was an anti-Semitic attack on Governor Shapiro that was a
39:37
blip in the news
39:38
SPEAKER_02: because,
39:38
SPEAKER_02: of course,
39:38
it was being overtaken by every other awful thing that was
39:41
happening around the
39:42
SPEAKER_02: same time.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: And also by a political party that was unwilling to acknowledge it.
39:48
And so you have like the politicization of something that
39:50
really shouldn't be as well.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I think that this is the way in which Trump flourishes.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: And of course, he's a creator of a lot of this chaos.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: Um,
40:00
SPEAKER_02: but also benefits from it,
40:02
SPEAKER_02: um,
40:02
because it also just allows so much of a normalization of so
40:06
many of these awful
40:06
SPEAKER_02: things.
40:07
SPEAKER_02: Um,
40:08
SPEAKER_02: and also the opportunity by which,
40:10
SPEAKER_02: you know,
40:10
SPEAKER_02: through which,
40:11
SPEAKER_02: um,
40:11
SPEAKER_02: one can sort of expand their author authoritarian impulses and,
40:15
SPEAKER_02: um,
40:16
SPEAKER_02: and projects.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: And then,
40:18
SPEAKER_01: of course,
40:19
there's the group of people who were getting ready to kidnap
40:22
Governor Gretchen
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Whitmer of Michigan back before the election.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: All right.
40:27
So there are two things all of these violent activists seem to
40:31
have in common.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: One is that they're white.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: And one is that they are men.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: And they are not always young men.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
40:40
SPEAKER_01: people talk about young men being radicalized,
40:42
SPEAKER_01: but a lot of these guys,
40:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:44
SPEAKER_01: Vance Bolter was in his late 50s.
40:49
The guy who set off a bomb,
40:53
a car bomb in Nashville,
40:55
he was in his 40s,
40:57
I think.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: So why are we not talking about white men?
41:05
as a serious problem that we need to address in terms of
41:10
political violence?
41:11
SPEAKER_01: Because you don't see women doing this.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: You don't see gay people going out and doing this.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: You don't see, by and large, Democrats doing this.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Why are we not talking about that?
41:23
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think some of us are, and some of us have been for a long time.
41:27
I think historians especially have a good scholarly record when
41:32
it comes to thinking about
41:35
violence in this country and that it being overwhelmingly
41:39
carried out by white men.
41:43
SPEAKER_02: But that scholarship and that conversation,
41:47
SPEAKER_02: I think,
41:48
SPEAKER_02: has gotten so much pushback,
41:51
SPEAKER_02: not only from the usual suspects,
41:54
but also has been barely taken up by a media that I think seems
41:58
really unwilling to
41:59
engage with us because of their own fears about bias and double
42:04
standards and all
42:05
SPEAKER_02: the rest.
42:06
And I think that this is one of many topics upon which the
42:09
so-called liberal media
42:10
SPEAKER_02: has showed itself to be not very left-leaning at all.
42:15
But I think that this is one in which the lack of media
42:19
coverage and the lack of
42:21
SPEAKER_02: sort of public conversations around
42:25
SPEAKER_02: race and gender in this particular realm,
42:32
it's significant that the media has been sort of so unwilling
42:36
to engage along those
42:39
SPEAKER_02: lines of analysis.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right about that.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: And I would also add another thing here,
42:48
which is the history of white male political violence often
42:54
implicates women very
42:56
SPEAKER_01: closely,
42:57
SPEAKER_01: white women.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: We see that in the history of the Ku Klux Klan, in which
43:02
white men who declare that their purpose is to prevent violence
43:07
against white women
43:09
SPEAKER_01: also have women who are making their outfits,
43:13
SPEAKER_01: who are cooking for these get-togethers and festivals.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: We see lots of women who are present at these events.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: We see lots of white women and white children who are present in grisly,
43:25
SPEAKER_01: horrible photographs of lynchings.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: What seems to be a little more
43:32
SPEAKER_01: or shall we just say different about this,
43:35
SPEAKER_01: is what we're now seeing is men who are detached somewhat from family,
43:40
SPEAKER_01: who are detached from community,
43:43
SPEAKER_01: who have suffered in some way and become economically marginal,
43:48
SPEAKER_01: who may in fact be mentally ill.
43:51
And we're seeing less of a presence,
43:53
an active presence of women supporting political violence.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: Would you agree with that?
44:01
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I apologize for my dog going crazy in the background.
44:04
He's committing violence on the pool guy who's just trying to
44:08
make our pool nice.
44:10
Yes,
44:11
I think,
44:11
you know,
44:12
social media with my 12 pound Yorkie going berserk at the door.
44:18
I sort of lost the thread of the conversation as I listened to
44:22
Toby go crazy.
44:23
But I think,
44:24
you know,
44:24
obviously social media drives so much of the atomization here
44:28
and
44:29
And I think sort of both empowers and isolates a particular
44:34
white man towards these actions.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:39
SPEAKER_02: And I'll just, I'll leave it there.
44:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: So just to wrap this up a little bit, Neil,
44:51
If you were thinking about something that could be done to
44:55
intervene in political
44:56
SPEAKER_01: violence,
44:57
SPEAKER_01: no matter how much it's wishful thinking,
45:00
SPEAKER_01: what would it be?
45:04
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, can we imagine a much more
45:09
SPEAKER_02: more restrictive gun,
45:12
SPEAKER_02: restrictive gun legislation passed by this Congress,
45:14
SPEAKER_02: that seems like it would be hugely helpful.
45:16
SPEAKER_02: I also think a president speaking out against it carries a lot of weight.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean, the bully pulpit counts for something.
45:24
SPEAKER_02: And I think Trump, especially having such
45:28
loyal devotion from an enormous base might actually sway the
45:32
circumstances.
45:34
We can imagine that so much of this is happening because of the
45:37
things he has said
45:38
SPEAKER_02: and the things he hasn't said.
45:39
And I think we can also imagine that things might be different
45:42
if he were to say
45:44
SPEAKER_02: something definitively around this.
45:45
SPEAKER_02: So I think a president who spoke up and out against this,
45:49
SPEAKER_02: especially one like him,
45:51
SPEAKER_02: could have an impact.
45:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree with you completely.
45:55
I think the thing I would add to that is I actually think the
45:59
Republican leadership
46:01
SPEAKER_01: needs to act in relation to their members.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: and get them to stop tweeting this extremist bullshit.
46:11
I think Mike Lee should have lost whatever committee
46:15
assignments he had for a
46:17
SPEAKER_01: period of time for doing what he did.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: And I think what is really discouraging is that someone like John Thune,
46:25
SPEAKER_01: who I actually think is a good person,
46:28
SPEAKER_01: and he has a long history of moderation in the Republican Party,
46:35
SPEAKER_01: that John Thune will not discipline
46:38
SPEAKER_01: his members for tweeting things that are lies,
46:41
SPEAKER_01: for tweeting things that encourage violence,
46:43
SPEAKER_01: that Thune will not publicly say to the president,
46:47
this is not acceptable in our party and you need to stand up
46:51
with me and make a
46:52
SPEAKER_01: statement with the leadership about how much we deplore this and we'll do
46:59
SPEAKER_01: everything in our power to make it end.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: I haven't seen Kash Patel out there, have you?
47:05
SPEAKER_02: Right.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
47:06
SPEAKER_02: you know,
47:06
SPEAKER_02: Thune,
47:08
SPEAKER_02: really,
47:08
SPEAKER_02: I think it's not surprising Kash Patel is not doing anything here,
47:11
SPEAKER_02: but like Thune,
47:12
SPEAKER_02: it's such a disappointment.
47:13
SPEAKER_02: But I also think it also just exemplifies the bind
47:18
SPEAKER_02: Well,
47:18
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say the bind that every Republican leader is in,
47:21
SPEAKER_02: but that's,
47:22
SPEAKER_02: that I think get,
47:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
47:24
SPEAKER_02: lets them off too easy.
47:25
SPEAKER_02: I think the situation that they've all allowed themselves to be in,
47:28
SPEAKER_02: which is that they won't stand up at all,
47:31
SPEAKER_02: um,
47:31
SPEAKER_02: to the ugly MAGA wing and the,
47:33
SPEAKER_02: and the MAGA impulses of,
47:35
SPEAKER_02: of,
47:36
SPEAKER_02: you know,
47:36
SPEAKER_02: sort of Trump politics and the GOP,
47:38
SPEAKER_02: uh,
47:38
SPEAKER_02: cause they don't want to get primary.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: They don't want to get,
47:40
SPEAKER_02: they don't want Trump to turn on them and all that,
47:42
SPEAKER_02: but it like,
47:43
SPEAKER_02: what kind of leader is not willing to face any of those things.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: It's just really pathetic.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: Why even be a senator?
47:51
SPEAKER_02: Like, why be a senator?
47:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
47:56
SPEAKER_01: Well,
47:56
SPEAKER_01: and if they don't care about this,
47:58
what they should care about is that every senator and every
48:03
congressperson is
48:04
SPEAKER_01: spending a ton of campaign money on extra security.
48:08
The amount of money that these people are spending on security
48:11
has escalated
48:12
SPEAKER_01: dramatically since 2016.
48:13
SPEAKER_01: I found a list on Vox.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: Ted Cruz pays $350,000 a year for security.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: He's at the top of the list.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: He is the most threatened person.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: And I guess he must be being threatened by Democrats.
48:30
I can't imagine why Republicans would threaten him,
48:33
although he's so unlikable.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: I guess everybody threatens him.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, then the next four are Democrats.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, I think, is number five on the list.
48:44
SPEAKER_01: She spends over $100,000 a year on security.
48:47
Cori Bush,
48:49
again,
48:50
Black woman,
48:51
Congresswoman,
48:52
she spends over $100,000 a year on security.
48:56
So you would think that at a certain point,
49:00
party leaders would say,
49:02
Houston,
49:03
we have a problem.
49:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I didn't know any of that.
49:07
SPEAKER_02: I was going to say shocking to hear, but actually it's not at all.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: The Ted Cruz part of it does sort of surprise me.
49:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
49:17
SPEAKER_02: maybe in the state of Texas where you have bigger guns,
49:20
SPEAKER_02: you have to pay more for these sorts of things.
49:23
I can imagine him getting threats from the extreme right in his
49:27
state as well.
49:27
SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
49:29
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, all of this is terrible.
49:31
SPEAKER_02: And it's sort of it's it also,
49:33
SPEAKER_02: I think,
49:33
SPEAKER_02: is telling that they're having to pay for this themselves,
49:37
SPEAKER_02: right?
49:37
That this is coming out of their own pocket,
49:40
that the government and the Congress hasn't.
49:42
And maybe there are some sort of protections a little bit or
49:46
some sort of ways in
49:47
SPEAKER_02: which they're subsidized a little bit around this.
49:50
SPEAKER_02: But that so much of this is stuff that they're paying for.
49:53
SPEAKER_02: That was really
49:57
Again,
49:57
not shocking information to hear,
49:58
but just,
49:59
I guess,
49:59
a sign of our times.
50:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I do want to add a little footnote to that.
50:05
Ted Cruz is actually much more likable in person than he is
50:09
when you see him on a screen.
50:10
I once met him at CPAC and sort of engaged in a little gaggle
50:15
with him just walking
50:16
SPEAKER_01: down the hall.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: And he was actually kind of smart and funny and nice.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: And I kind of thought, why can't you be like this as a senator?
50:23
I just want to add a little coda to this conversation and then
50:27
we'll move on to our
50:28
SPEAKER_01: Viral moments.
50:30
SPEAKER_01: But that last year,
50:32
SPEAKER_01: at least one Republican,
50:33
SPEAKER_01: Mike Gallagher,
50:34
may have left his Wisconsin House seat because he feared for
50:37
the safety of his
50:38
SPEAKER_01: family.
50:39
SPEAKER_01: And he basically said,
50:40
SPEAKER_01: you know,
50:40
SPEAKER_01: I can walk around wearing a bulletproof vest,
50:43
SPEAKER_01: but my kids can't.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: And his home had been targeted so frequently by opponents.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: And again, I think we have to implicate crazy Democrats in this.
50:54
He had been targeted so frequently,
50:56
he just said,
50:57
this career isn't worth it.
50:59
SPEAKER_01: And it is a sort of rising conversation.
51:03
How many people who ought to be in politics are staying out of
51:07
politics because
51:08
SPEAKER_01: they don't want to endanger the people they love?
51:12
SPEAKER_02: who would submit themselves to this.
51:13
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's not just those who are gonna retire and resign from this.
51:20
SPEAKER_02: Think of all the people who might enter politics,
51:23
but definitely not gonna do so because of the ugliness of our
51:27
political moment,
51:29
SPEAKER_02: but also the violence of it.
51:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:32
Okay,
51:33
so let's turn to our last segment,
51:35
which is what we want to go viral this week.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: Neil, what do you want to go viral this week?
51:40
SPEAKER_02: All right.
51:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, this week, I'm not recommending a book.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm recommending a book review about a book.
51:45
SPEAKER_02: So there's this big,
51:46
SPEAKER_02: huge biography that's come out,
51:49
SPEAKER_02: which hopefully I'll get to at some point this summer,
51:51
SPEAKER_02: the Sam Tannenhaus biography of William F.
51:55
SPEAKER_02: Buckley.
51:56
know it's like this huge doorstopper of a book that sam spent
52:00
more than two decades
52:01
writing it's getting all the incredible accolades i think it's
52:05
600 800 pages like
52:06
you know it's a it's an enormous opus and uh no it's over a
52:11
thousand pages my
52:12
goodness um there is also a much shorter and very brilliant
52:17
review by our good
52:18
SPEAKER_02: friend nicole hemmer or as we know her nikki
52:22
SPEAKER_02: in Democracy Journal.
52:25
SPEAKER_02: That is just a wonderful overview of the biography.
52:28
But something that I think is really interesting that she
52:32
really pulls on from the
52:35
SPEAKER_02: Tenet House biography is like William F.
52:37
SPEAKER_02: Buckley,
52:38
SPEAKER_02: a lot of ink has been spilled about him.
52:40
Like anyone who wrote about the history of conservatism in the
52:42
last 25 years had
52:44
SPEAKER_02: Buckley sort of front and center on that.
52:47
SPEAKER_02: Often as sort of like this respectable
52:50
SPEAKER_02: like sort of the respectable example of modern conservatism.
52:56
And the Tannenhaus biography really focuses in on sort of what
53:01
a terrible person he was.
53:04
The sort of terrible politics he has that like a lot of
53:07
historians have written
53:08
SPEAKER_02: about,
53:09
SPEAKER_02: but have sort of soft peddled or sort of
53:12
SPEAKER_02: intellectualized away,
53:14
but also the terrible person that he was and so many of his
53:18
like personal relations
53:19
SPEAKER_02: and his family background.
53:21
There's some really ugly stuff there with his father and that
53:25
this biography really
53:26
puts that front and center and thinks about why that matters in
53:29
the politics that
53:29
SPEAKER_02: were that he was
53:32
advancing in this country and that he had huge influence over
53:35
the development of
53:35
SPEAKER_02: modern conservatism.
53:37
And then Nikki has this wonderful closing section in her review
53:41
that I think is
53:42
SPEAKER_02: really worth reading the piece in full for,
53:44
SPEAKER_02: which says,
53:45
SPEAKER_02: you know,
53:45
SPEAKER_02: to its credit,
53:46
SPEAKER_02: this book ends at the time of William F.
53:51
SPEAKER_02: Buckley's death in,
53:52
SPEAKER_02: I believe,
53:52
SPEAKER_02: 2008 and doesn't sort of
53:55
make a case for you know buckley as the precursor of trump or
53:59
trumpism or doesn't
54:00
like think about buckley in our moment right now but she says
54:04
and yet it also can
54:06
SPEAKER_02: be read as a lens through which we might understand
54:11
SPEAKER_02: this moment and what has come to be.
54:13
And I think especially what she argues really effectively is a
54:17
much closer line
54:20
SPEAKER_02: between the collapse of Cold War conservatism and the rise of Trumpism.
54:24
So she has some really smart analysis of the biography that
54:28
lets her say something
54:29
SPEAKER_02: about our Trump moment,
54:31
SPEAKER_02: even as she,
54:32
SPEAKER_02: I think,
54:33
SPEAKER_02: sort of rightly appreciates the biography for not going there.
54:37
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's just a really
54:40
SPEAKER_02: beautiful piece of writing and what reviews of books really ought to do.
54:46
And obviously everyone should go read the biography as well,
54:50
but we'll link to both.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: all 1,000 pages of it.
54:54
SPEAKER_01: But what you just said,
54:56
SPEAKER_01: Neil,
54:56
SPEAKER_01: makes me want to run down to my local bookstore and buy it immediately,
55:00
SPEAKER_01: not only because I actually love a good meaty biography.
55:03
And I think the last one I read at 1,000 pages was The Power of
55:06
Adrienne Rich.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: So this will be a very different experience.
55:10
SPEAKER_01: But just listening to you talk,
55:13
I was thinking of things that Buckley did that were not
55:18
immediately successful
55:20
SPEAKER_01: but ultimately were the direction for success of the Republican Party,
55:26
SPEAKER_01: one being Young Americans for Freedom,
55:28
SPEAKER_01: another being recruiting somebody who was literate on television,
55:37
SPEAKER_01: Ronald Reagan,
55:37
SPEAKER_01: who had star power as a political candidate.
55:41
SPEAKER_01: And then also having a, having the,
55:47
SPEAKER_01: shall we say,
55:48
SPEAKER_01: courage or guts or something like that,
55:51
SPEAKER_01: to not care what the Republican Party thought of him,
55:54
to sort of create this third way for conservatism that wasn't
55:58
necessarily about
55:59
SPEAKER_01: electing people,
56:01
but was about actually changing the ideology of the party in
56:06
which he was obviously
56:07
SPEAKER_01: successful.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: I have something that's in its own way,
56:11
SPEAKER_01: just as long as what you have suggested with the Buckley biography,
56:15
SPEAKER_01: which is
56:16
SPEAKER_01: Ezra Klein's podcast this week with Sarah McBride.
56:20
SPEAKER_01: The title of it is Sarah McBride on Why the Left Lost Trans Rights.
56:25
SPEAKER_01: It's 90 minutes long, which is a long listen.
56:27
Fortunately,
56:28
I was in the car,
56:29
but you can also read it in the New York Times.
56:32
And it elevated my view of Sarah McBride even further than I
56:37
thought was possible.
56:40
SPEAKER_01: Sarah McBride is the representative from Delaware.
56:43
SPEAKER_01: She is the first transgender woman to be elected to the US Congress.
56:48
She has been the object of endless slings and arrows from the
56:52
likes of Nancy Mace,
56:54
who took McBride's arrival as an opportunity to put forward a
56:59
bill preventing Sarah
57:01
SPEAKER_01: McBride from using the women's bathroom anywhere in the Capitol.
57:04
SPEAKER_01: She was supported in this by Speaker Mike Johnson,
57:08
There have been repeated moments in which she has been
57:11
deliberately misgendered as
57:13
SPEAKER_01: she's being introduced to the floor.
57:15
Her maiden speech on the floor of the House,
57:18
she was introduced as Mr.
57:20
McBride.
57:22
SPEAKER_01: The second time she was misgendered,
57:24
she then turned around and misgendered the person who had
57:26
misgendered her,
57:27
SPEAKER_01: which was sort of hilarious.
57:29
But what's great about this interview is Sarah McBride speaking
57:34
to a moment in
57:36
SPEAKER_01: which trans rights are
57:38
SPEAKER_01: slipping away rapidly,
57:41
SPEAKER_01: how scary it is,
57:43
SPEAKER_01: why she thinks it happened,
57:44
SPEAKER_01: and what we have to do to move forward again.
57:48
And McBride's basic approach is that the trans rights people
57:54
got out over their
57:55
SPEAKER_01: skis,
57:57
SPEAKER_01: and that the
57:59
The strategies for them to have watched would have been the
58:03
civil rights movement,
58:05
SPEAKER_01: the black civil rights movement,
58:06
SPEAKER_01: the gay civil rights movement,
58:08
SPEAKER_01: the women's movement,
58:10
SPEAKER_01: in which McBride said,
58:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
58:11
it took decades to change attitudes about all of these groups
58:17
to a point where it
58:18
SPEAKER_01: became common sense,
58:19
SPEAKER_01: say,
58:19
SPEAKER_01: that women were entitled to equal rights,
58:22
SPEAKER_01: that women are at least theoretically entitled to equal pay,
58:25
SPEAKER_01: even though they don't really get it,
58:27
SPEAKER_01: for gay marriage.
58:29
SPEAKER_01: which has been an active campaign since 1972.
58:34
So McBride talks about the ways in which trying to push ahead
58:41
of public opinion is
58:43
SPEAKER_01: bad political strategy,
58:45
SPEAKER_01: that it absolutely forces trans people into the position of saying,
58:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
58:51
SPEAKER_01: I have one precious,
58:52
beautiful life to live and I'm not going to live it the way I
58:56
want to live it.
58:57
SPEAKER_01: and that actually maybe people have to accept that,
59:01
SPEAKER_01: because in the way things are moving,
59:05
SPEAKER_01: trans people have not only lost rights,
59:09
but are the subject of a variety of what you might call
59:13
information attacks about
59:15
SPEAKER_01: their personal integrity,
59:17
SPEAKER_01: about who they are,
59:18
SPEAKER_01: about whether they exist.
59:20
SPEAKER_01: And I guess part of what I liked most about this interview
59:25
SPEAKER_01: Sarah McBride is both incredibly smart and incredibly humble.
59:32
SPEAKER_01: And she talks about the painful experience of being hated,
59:37
SPEAKER_01: both by people who know her and people who don't know her.
59:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she talked about coming out as trans to her parents.
59:44
And she said,
59:44
you know,
59:45
when my brother came out as gay,
59:47
they immediately accepted him.
59:48
SPEAKER_01: They loved him.
59:49
SPEAKER_01: They reassured him that they loved him.
59:52
I knew when I told my parents I was trans,
59:54
it was not going to be like that.
59:56
SPEAKER_01: It was going to be a fight.
59:57
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't that they didn't love me.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_01: It's that they didn't understand and they didn't want this to happen.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: And I had to fight it out.
1:00:05
And she talks about the ways that trans activists have
1:00:11
cultivated a kind of
1:00:12
extremism in online culture that has alienated others and
1:00:19
failed to engage people.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_01: And frankly,
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: Neil,
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: I was surprised that I liked it so much because for most of my life,
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: I have not believed in the politics of incrementalism and moderation.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think
1:00:35
SPEAKER_01: Now that Trumpism has pushed us all to such extremes,
1:00:40
we need to rethink those strategies and Sarah McBride really
1:00:44
understands how they
1:00:45
SPEAKER_01: work.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_01: I had one final thought about McBride,
1:00:48
which is there's a lot of conversation about the lack of
1:00:51
leadership in the
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: Democratic Party.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_01: And I think what people mean by that,
1:00:56
SPEAKER_01: but do not say explicitly,
1:00:59
is that there is not one single leader emerging as the magic
1:01:04
person who's going to
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: lead us to the promised land.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_01: There's no Obama.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_01: There's no, to put it in another vein, Ronald Reagan.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_01: There's no Clinton.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_01: But in fact, there are a great many younger people who are leaders.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_01: And Sarah McBride is one of them.
1:01:22
And she has very quickly taken her celebrity and her uniqueness
1:01:28
and turned it to a
1:01:32
SPEAKER_01: really important microphone for speaking to all of us.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's it for today's show.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
1:01:59
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1:02:46
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SPEAKER_01: That's all for now.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_01: See you next time.