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Project Sign (2021 Edit) · Conspiracy! The Show

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, this is Adam, hosted of this podcast. Wait,
0:02
Speaker 1: this isn't an ad and if you're a Patreon or
0:05
Speaker 1: Supercast subscriber, you're not hearing this in error. I just
0:09
Speaker 1: wanted to let you all know a few things about
0:12
Speaker 1: this episode you're about to listen to. For one thing,
0:15
Speaker 1: it was originally released way back during the harsh California
0:20
Speaker 1: winter in November twenty eighteen, a point in history where
0:24
Speaker 1: clearly I had no clue what editing a podcast even meant.
0:29
Speaker 1: I'm not sure the original version of this episode was even.
0:32
Speaker 2: Edited at all.
0:34
Speaker 1: As released back in twenty eighteen, this episode was an
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Speaker 1: hour and six minutes long. Upon re listening and giving
0:41
Speaker 1: it another editing pass, it's now forty seven minutes long
0:45
Speaker 1: if you subtract all the blabbering I'm doing right now,
0:49
Speaker 1: and I suspect it tells a little more cohesive of
0:52
Speaker 1: a story than the episode did it first.
0:55
Speaker 2: That's why I'm.
0:55
Speaker 1: Also uploading this new edit for subscribers. I know that's
0:59
Speaker 1: the opposite of how these things work. Usually subscribers get
1:02
Speaker 1: the longer version, and you still do. You can still
1:05
Speaker 1: find it on our subscription sites. It's just that in
1:09
Speaker 1: this case, I don't think the extra content is necessarily
1:12
Speaker 1: a benefit to this episode, but hey, listen to both
1:15
Speaker 1: and decide for yourself. But also, we're releasing it for
1:19
Speaker 1: all the world to hear, even if you're not a subscriber,
1:22
Speaker 1: because it relates to a new series of pods that
1:25
Speaker 1: we're bringing your way. As I mentioned on a recent
1:27
Speaker 1: episode of Unpopular Opinion, the CIA just released a mountain
1:32
Speaker 1: of files about UFOs. I've been reading those files and
1:37
Speaker 1: they are fascinating. So we're going to do a bunch
1:40
Speaker 1: of episodes about what's in those files. Unlike the Paul
1:43
Speaker 1: Wellstone or Jonestown series, we're not going to do all
1:47
Speaker 1: of those episodes in a row. Instead, we'll just be
1:50
Speaker 1: dropping them in from time to time, first as bonus
1:53
Speaker 1: episodes and then eventually as free episodes. However, next week's
1:59
Speaker 1: episode with special guest co host Andy Sell is one
2:03
Speaker 1: of those CIA UFO files episodes, and it will be
2:07
Speaker 1: free for everyone to hear. But after that, if you're
2:10
Speaker 1: not a subscriber, you're gonna hear them just way later
2:13
Speaker 1: than the people with money, and ain't that always the way,
2:17
Speaker 1: But you'll hear them eventually, whether you're paying me or not.
2:20
Speaker 1: I love you all the same as for subscribers, you're
2:23
Speaker 1: getting this episode a day earlier than usual because tomorrow
2:27
Speaker 1: you're getting the first of those UFO Files episodes, a
2:31
Speaker 1: sort of bonus number where me and Fisi Desani run
2:36
Speaker 1: through some of the weirdest UFO sidings in those files
2:40
Speaker 1: from the nineteen fifties. And that's another reason why you're
2:43
Speaker 1: getting this new edit of this twenty eighteen episode. It's
2:46
Speaker 1: about Project Sign, which was a nineteen forties government project
2:51
Speaker 1: dedicated to researching the earliest reports of UFO sidings, kind
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Speaker 1: of the precursor to what we'll be talking about on
2:59
Speaker 1: these u UFO Files episodes. The stuff in those files
3:03
Speaker 1: relates to everything that happens after the CIA finally gets
3:07
Speaker 1: involved in UFOs in typically creepy CIA fashion in the
3:12
Speaker 1: early nineteen fifties. So yeah, until then, enjoy this newly
3:16
Speaker 1: efficient version of our episode about Project Sign.
3:20
Speaker 2: And Hey, thanks, we love you.
3:33
Speaker 3: Welcome to Conspiracy the Show with your hosts Adam Todd
3:39
Speaker 3: Brown and Connor mix Pattern.
3:53
Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome to Conspiracy the Show.
3:58
Speaker 4: I love the jaunty exclamation point in the title of
4:01
Speaker 4: the show.
4:01
Speaker 1: I know it's I haven't been saying it that way
4:05
Speaker 1: this entire time, so now I have to go back
4:07
Speaker 1: and edit all of the previous episodes.
4:09
Speaker 4: To go worthy expenditure of your time.
4:11
Speaker 1: So I can say it properly. How's everyone doing. That's
4:14
Speaker 1: Danger Van Gorder talking.
4:15
Speaker 5: Hi.
4:16
Speaker 4: Hi, everybody. Hello, everyone knows Danger Yep. I am universally
4:20
Speaker 4: acknowledged from the from the band Countless Thousands. That's correct,
4:25
Speaker 4: I'm very happy to be here.
4:26
Speaker 2: That is the name of one of their albums.
4:29
Speaker 4: We're just really excited to be here. Actually it's the
4:30
Speaker 4: first time.
4:31
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
4:31
Speaker 4: I wasn't even thinking about that, but yes, that's true.
4:33
Speaker 4: Oh my god, all of our all of our albums
4:35
Speaker 4: are positive affirmations. You guys really excited.
4:39
Speaker 1: Gross Rivers Langley is here too. Hey, I'm here as well.
4:43
Speaker 1: From the Goods from the Woods podcast. That's me also,
4:47
Speaker 1: Olivia Hidar Hello, Yes, Hi, how is it going?
4:51
Speaker 6: You know?
4:51
Speaker 7: Things are all right? Yeah, I mean, well, no, things
4:54
Speaker 7: are bad. So that was a lie. Other than that, yeah, great.
5:02
Speaker 1: So this is the lineup for the next two weeks
5:06
Speaker 1: on the show YEP Strapping. We're doing a two part
5:10
Speaker 1: episode of sorts where we're talking about some of the
5:14
Speaker 1: earliest government attempts at investigating UFOs and at covering up
5:19
Speaker 1: the investigation of those UFOs. This week we're talking about
5:23
Speaker 1: Project sign which was I think the first actual government Yeah,
5:29
Speaker 1: that was like Yeah, next week we're talking about Project
5:33
Speaker 1: blue Book. This week's episode is a Patreon exclusive. You
5:36
Speaker 1: lucky motherfuckers, right. Next week's free episode about Project blue Book,
5:40
Speaker 1: which is kind of the environmental protection agency of the
5:44
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties and sixties in how it was treated.
5:47
Speaker 2: That will be the subject in next week's episode, and
5:49
Speaker 2: we'll all be here for it, even danger.
5:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, unless I upset Adam.
5:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's possible.
5:55
Speaker 5: I think you've picked a great topic, especially to drop
5:58
Speaker 5: on a podcast, because I was dry here today and
6:00
Speaker 5: wanted to kind of bone up on Project blue Books.
6:02
Speaker 5: So if you type that into the podcast on Apple,
6:05
Speaker 5: it's all crazy people.
6:06
Speaker 2: Yeah.
6:06
Speaker 5: So yeah, you guys will be the first non insane
6:09
Speaker 5: people to have a Project blue Book pod.
6:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk about Projects Signes. UFO sightings really
6:19
Speaker 1: took off in the forties, and there's some speculation that
6:22
Speaker 1: it could be because we set off a bomb visible
6:25
Speaker 1: from space. Yeah, around that time, lots of them and
6:29
Speaker 1: aliens were like, what is happening down there?
6:32
Speaker 7: Yeah, we were setting off hundreds a year.
6:36
Speaker 1: So many UFOs have been a thing forever, Like there's
6:41
Speaker 1: there are there are fucking Bible Times images that have
6:45
Speaker 1: UFOs in the background of Ezekiel.
6:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe has a UFOs.
6:49
Speaker 1: That really famous one where it's it looks like it's
6:52
Speaker 1: almost like shooting something down to right.
6:54
Speaker 2: Yeah.
6:54
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's the chariots of fire and that sort of thing. Yeah,
6:58
Speaker 7: it even goes back all the way to Hindu texts.
7:01
Speaker 7: Can see references to fiery objects and that sort of thing.
7:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's One of our earliest episodes was
7:09
Speaker 1: about ancient nuclear war and the idea that we have
7:13
Speaker 1: been through this before and we have some point in
7:17
Speaker 1: history we advanced to the point of having nuclear weapons
7:21
Speaker 1: and then we used them.
7:22
Speaker 7: And then Bettle Star Galactica heap.
7:24
Speaker 5: Yeah, what is it? It's a canticle for Lebowitz by
7:28
Speaker 5: Walter Miller. Is that exact plot line actually?
7:32
Speaker 2: Raising book. Walter Miller was a veteran.
7:35
Speaker 5: He fought in the US Army and he was in
7:37
Speaker 5: the Battle of Monte Casino, which was basically a Nazi
7:41
Speaker 5: slash Italians on one side. Of this mountain, US forces
7:44
Speaker 5: on the other and in the middle, on top of
7:45
Speaker 5: the mountain was a monastery and they just shelled over
7:49
Speaker 5: this mountain and ended up raising this monastery and killing
7:51
Speaker 5: all of the monks inside. And he was very much
7:54
Speaker 5: affected by it and basically wrote this book that takes
7:59
Speaker 5: place over the course of eight hundred years that describes
8:01
Speaker 5: exactly what you're talking about, where the whole civilization builds up.
8:03
Speaker 5: They nuke themselves off the map, and then the only
8:06
Speaker 5: people left are these monks who are just holding on
8:09
Speaker 5: to any text that exists, and one of them is
8:12
Speaker 5: some guy named Lebowitz's shopping list. So it's like pound
8:15
Speaker 5: of salami, two heads of lettuce, and they like to
8:18
Speaker 5: turn it into a holy text.
8:20
Speaker 2: It's so good. Yeah, that's amazing.
8:21
Speaker 7: Yeah that sounds incredible.
8:22
Speaker 5: It's really good. And then he shot himself as soon
8:25
Speaker 5: as the book was published.
8:27
Speaker 7: Hey is the way to go.
8:30
Speaker 2: So war's good.
8:32
Speaker 1: All of these UFO incidents really start gaining steam in
8:36
Speaker 1: the forties.
8:37
Speaker 2: Nineteen forty seven, Yeah, it's the summer of the UFO.
8:40
Speaker 1: And that is the same year nineteen forty seven is
8:44
Speaker 1: when the Air Material.
8:46
Speaker 4: Command I typed it.
8:48
Speaker 1: As Material and spellcheck was like no, no, no, no, no, no,
8:52
Speaker 1: you're you're fucking that up. So Air Material Command AMC
8:57
Speaker 1: was asked to study the situation to make some rec mondations.
9:00
Speaker 1: On September twenty third, Lieutenant General Nathan F. Twining wrote
9:04
Speaker 1: his superior with this analysis, the phenomenon reported is something
9:08
Speaker 1: real and not visionary or fictitious like danger says.
9:12
Speaker 4: I mean we haven't gone into that.
9:16
Speaker 2: It's got that in the fucking writing. I don't know
9:19
Speaker 2: what to tell you.
9:19
Speaker 1: And three months later Project sign Yeah was established.
9:23
Speaker 5: Well, that summer is crazy because you know, the first
9:26
Speaker 5: kind of modern UFO incident happens in June of nineteen
9:29
Speaker 5: forty seven, and that's Kenneth Arnold.
9:31
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was just about demention.
9:32
Speaker 5: Right right where he And it's funny because he describes
9:35
Speaker 5: the motion of the craft as like a saucer skipping
9:39
Speaker 5: across the water, not the craft itself. Because the craft
9:42
Speaker 5: that Kinneth Arnold saw basically the government lost a plane
9:46
Speaker 5: in Mountaineer National Park. They were like, hey, if you're
9:48
Speaker 5: a pilot you can find this plane, we'll give you
9:50
Speaker 5: five thousand dollars. So Kenth Arnold's looking for a down
9:52
Speaker 5: plane in the National Park and then he sees I
9:55
Speaker 5: believe it's nine.
9:57
Speaker 7: I believe in like a triangle.
10:00
Speaker 5: Yes, they're sort of chevron shaped craft and there's flying
10:03
Speaker 5: in sort of.
10:04
Speaker 2: A the shape.
10:05
Speaker 5: And he even describes opening it because he thought it
10:08
Speaker 5: just it was like a glare on the window or
10:10
Speaker 5: something coming off with the snow. So he opens the
10:12
Speaker 5: window of his craft and like sticks his head out,
10:14
Speaker 5: which is always.
10:15
Speaker 2: Cracks me up because I just think a snoopy.
10:19
Speaker 5: Sticks his head out and to make sure he can
10:21
Speaker 5: actually see what yuck, he thinks he's seeing, and he does,
10:23
Speaker 5: and he lands reports this and that goes all over
10:27
Speaker 5: the world and then like that's that's June of forty seven.
10:30
Speaker 2: I think July seventh is Roswell.
10:32
Speaker 7: Yeah, and that's where you know the term flying saucer, yeah,
10:36
Speaker 7: popular ised because he talks about it like it moves
10:39
Speaker 7: like a saucer, shaped like a saucery.
10:41
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, well I think actually he said it was
10:44
Speaker 5: shaped like a it was a chevron ship, right, But
10:47
Speaker 5: then the media techron Yeah, it had techron It had
10:50
Speaker 5: the little eyes on the on the front like cars.
10:54
Speaker 5: But then that got sort of telephoned through the media.
10:57
Speaker 5: To where it just became oh flying saucer. And then
11:00
Speaker 5: a month later Roswell happens, which is.
11:02
Speaker 7: Which is also really fascinating.
11:04
Speaker 2: Anyone been to Roswell?
11:05
Speaker 7: I have, Oh it's the best, it's such it's I
11:09
Speaker 7: love it.
11:09
Speaker 6: So they make a big deal.
11:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh my god, Oh my god.
11:15
Speaker 7: I would imagine they don't have an entire museum.
11:18
Speaker 2: My International UFO Musicum, which is really great.
11:23
Speaker 5: It's like if the year nineteen ninety seven just materialized
11:26
Speaker 5: into a museum.
11:27
Speaker 7: That is the year that I went, Oh.
11:32
Speaker 2: Wow, you picked the best year to go.
11:34
Speaker 7: It was amazing. I was truly a phenomenal experience.
11:38
Speaker 6: Man.
11:39
Speaker 2: I was there on the day Prince died, so oh wow.
11:42
Speaker 4: Yeah, I never forget.
11:43
Speaker 2: It was kind of a bummer, but the museum was dope.
11:45
Speaker 5: And then afterwards I was like, you know what I'm
11:48
Speaker 5: gonna put on by Because I'd come from Texas, I
11:50
Speaker 5: bought like some cowboys stuff. I was like, go to
11:52
Speaker 5: like a bar to hit on some some country girls
11:55
Speaker 5: out here.
11:56
Speaker 2: This would be fun. And it turns out they don't
11:58
Speaker 2: have a bar.
11:58
Speaker 5: No, the only bar, the only bar in Roswell is
12:01
Speaker 5: the Buffalo Wild Wings, And so I went to be
12:04
Speaker 5: Dubaduba Dubbles with my little Cowboy get up and I
12:08
Speaker 5: drank one jack and coke and then went back to
12:09
Speaker 5: my hotel and ate uh ten wings and watched Prince
12:13
Speaker 5: videos on the bed.
12:14
Speaker 1: When I went uh, I went with Portugal Man, No
12:18
Speaker 1: Big deal, oh NBD when we were Oh.
12:21
Speaker 4: Wait is that that band that I did guest vocals on? Yeah,
12:24
Speaker 4: and they're Grammy Woman. Oh yeah, that's high five book.
12:28
Speaker 4: We had a fun twenty sixteen, except for the part
12:30
Speaker 4: where I lost my job.
12:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, but uh yeah.
12:33
Speaker 1: When I I toured with Portugal the Man, they had
12:35
Speaker 1: a day off and they were stopping in Roswell, so
12:37
Speaker 1: I was like, of course I'm gonna fucking go to
12:40
Speaker 1: Roswell and we had the same situation.
12:42
Speaker 2: We were like, let's hit a bar.
12:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we asked our taxi driver like where, like
12:49
Speaker 1: what's what are the good bars?
12:50
Speaker 2: And he was like, man, Buffalo Wild Did we go
12:54
Speaker 2: to the same Buffalo Wild Wings? Yeah?
12:56
Speaker 4: It sounds like the kind of small town where the
12:58
Speaker 4: tech it's you don't call a tack, so you just
13:00
Speaker 4: call like the v taxi.
13:02
Speaker 2: Yeah.
13:03
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's a really small town and it's right next
13:05
Speaker 7: to an old Air Force base and so there's a
13:07
Speaker 7: big military town kind of feel to it.
13:10
Speaker 1: Right.
13:11
Speaker 7: It's just yeah, really interesting.
13:13
Speaker 5: Not terribly far from the Trinity Test site right right,
13:17
Speaker 5: detonated the first nuclear weapon.
13:18
Speaker 1: I think everyone's pretty familiar with the Roswell Yes incident,
13:22
Speaker 1: and even if you're not, that's a whole other I
13:24
Speaker 1: don't think we've ever done a Roswell episode, which is insane.
13:27
Speaker 1: I mean it's like you should, we should, We'll do
13:30
Speaker 1: like it. That would be like a four part episode. Yeah,
13:33
Speaker 1: there's so much to.
13:34
Speaker 7: It's so interesting. It really is such a confluence of
13:38
Speaker 7: so many different I don't know, ideas and things. It's
13:41
Speaker 7: just yeah, cool.
13:42
Speaker 2: I like it a lot.
13:43
Speaker 1: So some of the incidents that happened after Projects Sign
13:48
Speaker 1: was established, there were three incidents that really kind of sold,
13:53
Speaker 1: allegedly sold the members of Projects Sign on the idea
13:57
Speaker 1: that these were UFOs that.
13:59
Speaker 2: People were seeing. And the first one was the Mantel
14:02
Speaker 2: UFO incident.
14:03
Speaker 1: Leading up to this, we were already getting into that
14:07
Speaker 1: time where UFO incidents were like mocked and people were like, yeah,
14:11
Speaker 1: that's fake bullshit.
14:12
Speaker 4: You're sermon going you get the little fishing wire.
14:16
Speaker 1: That all changed because of the Mantel incident, because Mantel
14:21
Speaker 1: fucking died, and when that happens, people take it more seriously.
14:27
Speaker 1: It happened January seventh, nineteen forty eight. Twenty five year
14:30
Speaker 1: old Captain Thomas F. Mantel, Kentucky Air National Guard pilot,
14:34
Speaker 1: died in the crash of his F fifty one Mustang
14:36
Speaker 1: Fighter jet after being sent in pursuit of an unidentified
14:40
Speaker 1: flying object. This was one of the most publicized early
14:44
Speaker 1: UFO incidents. Mantel was an experienced pilot. He was only
14:48
Speaker 1: twenty five, but he had two thousand, one hundred and
14:51
Speaker 1: sixty seven hours in the air. Because this was World
14:54
Speaker 1: War Two, like twenty five was today's forty.
14:57
Speaker 4: That puts him at That puts him in France and
15:01
Speaker 4: Germany at like twenty.
15:02
Speaker 1: Two, right, yeah, probably, but yeah, he probably had like
15:07
Speaker 1: four kids at home, and he had been married for.
15:09
Speaker 7: Two years, been in the force since he was eighteen.
15:12
Speaker 2: Yeah.
15:12
Speaker 1: On January seventh, nineteen forty eight, at Godman Army Airfield
15:16
Speaker 1: at Fort Knox, Kentucky, they received a report from the
15:19
Speaker 1: Kentucky Highway Patrol of an unusual aerial object near Madisonville, Kentucky.
15:24
Speaker 1: At about one forty five PM, Sergeant Quentin Blackwell saw
15:28
Speaker 1: an object from his position in the control tower at
15:30
Speaker 1: Fort Knox. Two other witnesses in the lower tower also
15:33
Speaker 1: reported a white object in the distance through binoculars. It
15:37
Speaker 1: appeared to have a red glow along the bottom. It
15:40
Speaker 1: remained stationary for one and a half hours, which that's
15:43
Speaker 1: a long time to just look at it, yeah, and
15:46
Speaker 1: not send something out. Four Air Force f fifty one
15:49
Speaker 1: Mustangs were in the air at the time. All four
15:51
Speaker 1: were sent in pursuit. One had to turn back almost.
15:54
Speaker 2: Immediately due to low fuel levels.
15:56
Speaker 1: At one point, all three are told to level out
15:58
Speaker 1: to see if they can get a better view of
16:00
Speaker 1: this object. Two of them did that, but Mantel, for
16:03
Speaker 1: some reason, continued climbing, got to twenty five hundred thousand
16:07
Speaker 1: feet and passed out from a lack of oxygen. His
16:10
Speaker 1: plane went into a tail spin and crashed on a
16:12
Speaker 1: Kentucky farm. He was the first member of the Kentucky
16:16
Speaker 1: Air National Guard to die in flight and Project SIGN
16:19
Speaker 1: this was one of the first things that they investigated
16:22
Speaker 1: in NINETEENIX.
16:24
Speaker 2: Project SIGN was active for most of nineteen forty eight,
16:27
Speaker 2: or I think all of nineteen forty eight.
16:28
Speaker 1: And one of the weird theories about this is that
16:34
Speaker 1: everyone was just seeing the planet Venus, yeah, and freaking
16:37
Speaker 1: out about it being a UFO.
16:39
Speaker 2: Yeah.
16:40
Speaker 4: Was there some gravitational lensing that might account for the
16:43
Speaker 4: different appearance of the Venus?
16:46
Speaker 1: Well, what he described was like the size of a
16:49
Speaker 1: football field, and no matter.
16:51
Speaker 4: Vas is a pretty big object.
16:55
Speaker 7: Venus is like very large. It's also millions and millions
16:59
Speaker 7: of us.
17:00
Speaker 4: I mean, you get a little gravitational lensing, it would
17:02
Speaker 4: did you see this on like a Bill Nye episode
17:04
Speaker 4: or something?
17:05
Speaker 2: What's happening here?
17:05
Speaker 4: I just I just like, gravitational lensing is just really phenomenon.
17:10
Speaker 1: But this would have no matter what looked like like
17:13
Speaker 1: a pin prick of light in the sky, right.
17:15
Speaker 5: I remember a couple of years ago where there was
17:17
Speaker 5: like a Facebook meme going around that was like, on
17:19
Speaker 5: November fifteenth, Mars will appear to be the size of
17:23
Speaker 5: the moon in the sky and it was like super bright,
17:27
Speaker 5: I guess, but it still looked like a pin prick
17:30
Speaker 5: in Yeah.
17:32
Speaker 2: It looks like a star.
17:33
Speaker 5: But so many dummies retweeted that and it's just like
17:37
Speaker 5: you know that you've never seen that in your life.
17:39
Speaker 5: You'll never see it unless something goes horribly wrong, in
17:44
Speaker 5: which case.
17:44
Speaker 2: You notice a lot of other really weird yeah, biggest
17:49
Speaker 2: moon in the sky. Then everything is fucked.
17:53
Speaker 1: So yeah, what made this more credible than most UFO
17:57
Speaker 1: reports at the time is that Mantell was like, he
17:59
Speaker 1: was a decorated fighter pilot, yeah, reporting this. He wasn't
18:03
Speaker 1: just some crazy person who happened to be in his
18:06
Speaker 1: plane at the time, which is I think, how what
18:09
Speaker 1: the first incident you mentioned. I think that's kind of
18:12
Speaker 1: how like they basically wrote people off as crazy, sure,
18:16
Speaker 1: and it's hard to do that with a guy like this.
18:19
Speaker 1: So this is one of the incidents that got the
18:21
Speaker 1: attention of Project Sign. We were going to do an episode,
18:26
Speaker 1: Olivia and I were going to do an episode last
18:28
Speaker 1: week about the.
18:30
Speaker 2: Loveland UFO Oh yes, yeah, yeah, incident.
18:33
Speaker 1: And the only reason I didn't do it is because
18:36
Speaker 1: it's it's a fascinating story and it happened around this
18:39
Speaker 1: time too, but it was in somewhere in Texas, Texas, right.
18:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Loveland UFO incident.
18:44
Speaker 1: It's just there's like thirteen or fourteen different people who
18:48
Speaker 1: gave reports, and what's interesting about it is what's also
18:51
Speaker 1: boring about it.
18:52
Speaker 2: They all give.
18:53
Speaker 1: The exact same report, sure, like every person they were
18:59
Speaker 1: driving in and they see this cigar shaped object in
19:03
Speaker 1: the road ahead of them. As they approach it, the
19:06
Speaker 1: electrical system in their car dies, the lights go out,
19:10
Speaker 1: and it just sits there until someone starts to approach it,
19:14
Speaker 1: and then it fucking lights up and takes off into
19:16
Speaker 1: the sky.
19:17
Speaker 2: Wow.
19:18
Speaker 1: As soon as it leaves, the electrical system in the
19:20
Speaker 1: cars start working again. And like I think it was
19:24
Speaker 1: like fifteen different people give this exact same report over
19:27
Speaker 1: the course of like two hours, right, which is fascinating,
19:31
Speaker 1: But also it would have just the episode would have
19:34
Speaker 1: been us reading the same account, right, fourteen fifteen times
19:38
Speaker 1: in a row, right.
19:39
Speaker 5: When you could just watch the first like half hour
19:41
Speaker 5: of Close Encounters exactly.
19:43
Speaker 7: Yeah, which, yeah, definitely borrows a lot from these incidents, right. Yeah,
19:48
Speaker 7: it was a really interesting case. But it's interesting how
19:51
Speaker 7: many of them, how many reports and the ones that
19:54
Speaker 7: end up being seen as more unknown involved the cigar
19:59
Speaker 7: shaped object. Right, And now we've got a cigar shaped
20:02
Speaker 7: object in our solbular system.
20:04
Speaker 2: Oh too.
20:05
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's called I believe Muama or something like that.
20:11
Speaker 2: And they think it could be an alien pro it might.
20:13
Speaker 7: It's either an asteroid just a normal that. Oh I can't.
20:17
Speaker 5: I was sad when I read that that they said
20:19
Speaker 5: it was just a probe and not a gunship here too.
20:21
Speaker 2: I was like, come on, it's time, you know.
20:24
Speaker 7: Yeah for real. But I mean, also, the probe thing
20:27
Speaker 7: is just a theory. They don't know. I know, it's
20:30
Speaker 7: impossible to tell right now.
20:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, so let's talk about another incident.
20:45
Speaker 2: The child's witted. I don't know why. It's a busy child.
20:50
Speaker 2: It's a soul food restaurant. Yeah, that was weird.
20:53
Speaker 1: This happened early morning July twenty fourth, nineteen forty eight,
20:56
Speaker 1: Clarence Chiles and John Witted. They were the chief pilot
21:00
Speaker 1: and co pilot, respectively, of the Eastern Airlines Douglas DC
21:05
Speaker 1: three passenger plane. They were flying about five thousand feet
21:08
Speaker 1: near Montgomery, Alabama, Strike one at about two forty five am.
21:13
Speaker 1: Child saw a dull red glow above and ahead of
21:16
Speaker 1: the aircraft. He told Witted, look, here comes a new
21:20
Speaker 1: army jet job. I don't even know what the fuck
21:22
Speaker 1: that means.
21:23
Speaker 7: That's exactly what he said.
21:26
Speaker 1: He was probably smoking. Army jet job army jet job.
21:30
Speaker 7: I think that actually would probably make more sense with
21:33
Speaker 7: a with a Southern accent.
21:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, an army jet job.
21:36
Speaker 5: Yeah, probably think an army jet job is when you're
21:39
Speaker 5: in the Army and you stick your dick in a.
21:42
Speaker 2: Glory hole and a guy the air force off. That's
21:45
Speaker 2: a jet job.
21:46
Speaker 1: And this object, well, if it happens really really fast.
21:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's quick too, they're good. If it's slow, it's
21:54
Speaker 2: a jet career. Yeah.
21:56
Speaker 1: The so this object closed in on their plane in sets,
22:00
Speaker 1: and they both later said that they saw the object
22:03
Speaker 1: fly past the right side of the plane at high
22:05
Speaker 1: speed before it pulled up with tremendous bursts of flame
22:09
Speaker 1: out of its rear and soumed up into the clouds.
22:13
Speaker 2: Oh now you can't just dude, y fie. Yeah, sounds
22:17
Speaker 2: like the player.
22:18
Speaker 5: It sounds like the plane went to Laredo on Montgomery
22:21
Speaker 5: for Taco Tuesday.
22:23
Speaker 1: Who Laredo Taco Tuesday. Everybody used code.
22:27
Speaker 2: On pops fifteen at the register. That's for Florido. Man,
22:30
Speaker 2: he knows me there. Eduardo's good people.
22:34
Speaker 1: So they observed this object for a total of ten
22:36
Speaker 1: to fifteen seconds. Child's and Wedded stated that the object
22:40
Speaker 1: looked like a wingless aircraft. It seemed to have two
22:43
Speaker 1: rows of windows through which glowed a very bright light as.
22:47
Speaker 2: Brilliant as a magnesium flow.
22:50
Speaker 1: Wow, I think that's what they sounded like. Only one
22:54
Speaker 1: passenger saw anything, and that was C. L.
22:56
Speaker 2: McKelvey. You know Cee l McKelvey Rivers.
22:59
Speaker 5: I know some MCA they're not good people. They lived
23:03
Speaker 5: down in the hall and they're always fussing and fighted.
23:05
Speaker 5: And my granddaddy's a sheriff. He had a round up
23:09
Speaker 5: several mckelvey's.
23:11
Speaker 1: He reported seeing a bright streak of light that flashed
23:15
Speaker 1: by his window. They were interviewed by Project Sign also
23:19
Speaker 1: Edward Rupelt, who will come up a lot in this,
23:22
Speaker 1: a US Air Force captain. He would write at one
23:25
Speaker 1: point that, according to the old timers at ati C
23:28
Speaker 1: that's Air Technical Intelligence Center, the child, the child's witted
23:33
Speaker 1: report shook them worse than the Mantel incident. This was
23:37
Speaker 1: the first time two reliable sources had been really close
23:41
Speaker 1: enough to a UFO to get a good look.
23:44
Speaker 2: Well.
23:45
Speaker 5: So, the one thing about this airspace that it should
23:47
Speaker 5: be noted is that Montgomery, Alabama is home to Maxwell
23:50
Speaker 5: Gunner Air Force Base, So you've got a military presence
23:54
Speaker 5: in that city. It's actually Hank william Senior is buried
23:58
Speaker 5: in Oakwood Cemetery across the street from Maxwell Gunter Air
24:01
Speaker 5: Force Base.
24:03
Speaker 2: But yeah, so you know the good Hank Williams.
24:05
Speaker 5: Yeah, the good one, got your, Hank three, got your
24:10
Speaker 5: And none of them are named Henry, by the way
24:11
Speaker 5: it should Yeah, no, no, no, Hiram, Randall and Sheldon.
24:17
Speaker 2: Those are those are the three Hanks.
24:19
Speaker 5: None of them are that Shelton, Sheldon's Hank three's man.
24:24
Speaker 7: I did not I would never have guessed. Yeah, Hank
24:27
Speaker 7: three is named Shelley.
24:29
Speaker 5: Yeah, Hank Senior is Hiram Hiram King Williams. And then
24:33
Speaker 5: Hank Junior is Randall Williams.
24:35
Speaker 2: Was he in the fucking Freemasons?
24:38
Speaker 7: They were born in the fifties, one.
24:41
Speaker 2: Of those teens, and they were super into the Bible.
24:44
Speaker 5: But uh, point is, like for the skeptics out there,
24:47
Speaker 5: you've got either a point of contact with American military
24:51
Speaker 5: or potentially you know, Russian military spying on American hardware.
24:55
Speaker 2: Right.
24:55
Speaker 5: So it's one of the questions I always have with
24:57
Speaker 5: this because you always get the American perspective as far
25:01
Speaker 5: as as far as like skeptics go, they'll always say like, oh, well,
25:05
Speaker 5: the American Army had Project Muggle, which is like supposedly
25:08
Speaker 5: or Mogul or whatever it was, which had the Muggles
25:10
Speaker 5: Harry Potter projects many years later Project Mogul, where it's
25:13
Speaker 5: the you know, the big weather balloon that supposedly crashed
25:16
Speaker 5: at Roswell.
25:17
Speaker 2: Did they talk to the Russians?
25:18
Speaker 5: Like the Russians surely had weird ship that they were
25:21
Speaker 5: testing out over our skies all the time too, right, Yeah,
25:24
Speaker 5: I guess we're not. We're not super close with them
25:26
Speaker 5: right now. But in the eight years that we got
25:28
Speaker 5: along with them from from ninety one to two, could
25:31
Speaker 5: we have asked, like, yo, what were.
25:32
Speaker 1: You guys up to? Like we'll put our cards on
25:35
Speaker 1: the table too. Yeah, it was a weird time. It
25:37
Speaker 1: was in arms race almost like where we were both
25:41
Speaker 1: fighting to find out as much as we could about
25:44
Speaker 1: this ship. Yeah, but also telling the public that now
25:47
Speaker 1: we're not looking into this, it's all dumb right, right,
25:49
Speaker 1: you're an idiot. And yeah, I think a lot of
25:51
Speaker 1: UFO sightings do come down to government testing.
25:55
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, they're always doing Like just think
25:59
Speaker 5: of the weird ship that we know about.
26:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, the government does.
26:02
Speaker 4: And then may they remember that awesome sky spiral from
26:06
Speaker 4: a couple of years ago.
26:07
Speaker 1: That's oh that was a SpaceX Oh motherfucker. Yeah yeah,
26:12
Speaker 1: every yeah.
26:12
Speaker 4: Ever looked like a crazy warp thing that was gonna
26:16
Speaker 4: suck something in from the forgotten dimension.
26:18
Speaker 5: But my my thing with that, whenever those pictures come
26:21
Speaker 5: out and there's just a million l a fucking people
26:23
Speaker 5: being like, uh wow, what is that?
26:26
Speaker 2: Is it a UFO?
26:26
Speaker 5: And I just imagine there's a bunch of people in
26:28
Speaker 5: Candahar being like, yeah, it's a trite and missile.
26:30
Speaker 7: You you know what those look like? Yeah, that's the
26:33
Speaker 7: that's the thing is Uh, there are definitely a lot
26:36
Speaker 7: of and and they and they admit this in the
26:38
Speaker 7: report that they released later on that a lot of
26:40
Speaker 7: the reports do indicate that they were just misidentifying experimental
26:45
Speaker 7: aircraft and that sort of thing, And that is definitely
26:48
Speaker 7: that seems like a very reasonable explanation.
26:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, for a lot of things. Yeah that I bring
26:53
Speaker 1: this documentary up all the time called men.
26:56
Speaker 2: Yeah I still have a watch that yet, but I
26:57
Speaker 2: swear to god, I'm gonna it's so good.
26:59
Speaker 1: And they they really go into like I wonder how
27:02
Speaker 1: much Like there's some parts in this episode in the
27:05
Speaker 1: next episode where I wonder if that's sort of what's
27:09
Speaker 1: happening here where the government's going out and giving people
27:12
Speaker 1: information and being like, yeah, fucking run with this, dude,
27:15
Speaker 1: And then as soon as it comes out, they're like, what,
27:18
Speaker 1: we've never heard of that?
27:19
Speaker 2: Ye, in our entire lives. It was crazy.
27:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's one story where there's two I don't think
27:24
Speaker 1: I put it in the notes, but one of the
27:25
Speaker 1: incidents that happened around this time, it was two like
27:28
Speaker 1: highway patrolmen who reported it, and it like there was
27:32
Speaker 1: this investigation and it went to the highest levels of
27:34
Speaker 1: the government and they were like, yeah, it was just
27:37
Speaker 1: military testing. And these two dudes were like, you're fucking
27:40
Speaker 1: ruining our credibility, Like we would know if it was
27:44
Speaker 1: fucking government testing, Like no matter what altitude, we know
27:48
Speaker 1: what the fuck we saw, and you're just like using
27:51
Speaker 1: science to destroy us as people. And there was a
27:54
Speaker 1: lot of that, Yeah, like that's what the fuck we
27:56
Speaker 1: got up to as a government for about fifty years
28:00
Speaker 1: and you know.
28:00
Speaker 5: Still now, yeah, well it's it's easier to discredit just
28:04
Speaker 5: people on the ground, you know what I mean.
28:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot.
28:07
Speaker 5: Easier to make people look crazy than it is to
28:09
Speaker 5: make the government look like they're fucking with you.
28:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. So let's talk about the Gorman dog fight. This
28:16
Speaker 2: is a fun story.
28:16
Speaker 1: It happened October first, nineteen forty eight, and this is
28:19
Speaker 1: kind of the trifecta of UFO incidents that happened under
28:23
Speaker 1: Project Sign that lead them to their belief was that
28:28
Speaker 1: it was UFO activity. George Gorman, he was a pilot
28:31
Speaker 1: with a North Dakota Air National Guard.
28:33
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, bring over some lutfisk and we can watch
28:37
Speaker 5: the dogfight.
28:39
Speaker 1: The aforementioned Captain Edward J. Ruppelt wrote in his book
28:44
Speaker 1: The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. He wrote that this
28:48
Speaker 1: was one of the three UFO incidents that quote proved
28:52
Speaker 1: too intelligent specialists that UFOs were real. And his name
28:56
Speaker 1: will be really important in the next episode because he's
28:58
Speaker 1: the guy who ran Project Blue Book. Yeah, he was
29:01
Speaker 1: the first guy who ran it, and by nineteen fifty
29:04
Speaker 1: six he's out and writing books about how the government's lying.
29:08
Speaker 7: He was one of the few members along with Jay
29:11
Speaker 7: Allen Heinik, who's a doctor professor at the time and
29:16
Speaker 7: who is also another person who will be really important
29:18
Speaker 7: right on, but yeah, who's also worked on all of
29:21
Speaker 7: these cases that project sign was.
29:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's interesting about him is he worked on all
29:25
Speaker 1: three Yeah, exactly, and he had so no one has
29:29
Speaker 1: seen more UFO right than him, like just the amount
29:33
Speaker 1: of Well we'll talk about it more next episode, but
29:37
Speaker 1: Project Blue Book ends up analyzing something like twelve thousand
29:41
Speaker 1: reports of UFO activity.
29:43
Speaker 2: It's insane.
29:44
Speaker 1: So Gorman was twenty five at the time, but also
29:47
Speaker 1: a veteran World War Two pilot. He was participating in
29:50
Speaker 1: a cross country flight with other National Guard pilots. They
29:53
Speaker 1: all landed at eight thirty pm and he decided to
29:56
Speaker 1: get some night flying in and it was there were
30:00
Speaker 1: clear conditions. He flew over a football stadium at one
30:03
Speaker 1: point and could very clearly make out this plane flying
30:06
Speaker 1: five hundred feet below him and to the west, he
30:08
Speaker 1: sees an object that appeared to have no wings and
30:11
Speaker 1: was blinking. Air traffic control confirmed there were no other
30:14
Speaker 1: planes in the area. They reach out to another official
30:17
Speaker 1: who confirmed he also saw the object. Gorman decides to
30:20
Speaker 1: chase it, but realizes it's moving too fast to be
30:23
Speaker 1: caught in a straight run, so he tries cutting it
30:26
Speaker 1: off by turns. If anyone's ever played football, when like
30:30
Speaker 1: when someone's running down the sideline, you're not going to
30:33
Speaker 1: catch them. If you run in a straight line, they're
30:35
Speaker 1: just going to pass you. Yeah, but you can no
30:37
Speaker 1: matter how slow you are, you can usually catch a
30:40
Speaker 1: person if you go in the right angle and you
30:42
Speaker 1: have a much enough time.
30:45
Speaker 2: So that's what he was trying, And what if he
30:48
Speaker 2: caught him? Like I always think, like I've never flown
30:50
Speaker 2: a plane.
30:50
Speaker 5: Obviously, but like when you hear all these things, it's
30:52
Speaker 5: like and then we went after him, we were gonna
30:53
Speaker 5: get them.
30:54
Speaker 2: I'm like, the fuck that dude. No, Yeah, I think mostly.
30:57
Speaker 7: They just wanted to like identify it. Yeah, just be like,
31:01
Speaker 7: what is this thing? Ye have an answer?
31:04
Speaker 5: I don't need the answers that pat I'd rather remain unexploded.
31:10
Speaker 2: Yeah.
31:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I'd just be like, there's a UFO,
31:14
Speaker 1: I'm coming in for landing.
31:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, it off to the west.
31:17
Speaker 5: Gonna go get a boat and stay out of the skies.
31:22
Speaker 1: Because this basically turns in It's called the Gorman dog
31:25
Speaker 1: Fight for a reason. It turns into basically him in
31:28
Speaker 1: this fucking.
31:29
Speaker 2: Ball of light. Oh there, it goes shoot him.
31:33
Speaker 1: And they're like doing these evasive maneuvers and like the
31:36
Speaker 1: light keeps flying at him and then like like it's
31:39
Speaker 1: trying to fucking crash his head, like it's a dogfight.
31:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, all like flies.
31:43
Speaker 5: Into like a trench and he's flying through the trench
31:45
Speaker 5: and then it takes one miraculous shot Star Wars, Star Wars,
31:52
Speaker 5: I've really done it here.
31:53
Speaker 1: He chased it to fourteen thousand feet at one point,
31:56
Speaker 1: at which point is playing stalled, chased it until he
31:59
Speaker 1: was approximately twenty five miles southwest of Fargo, and eventually
32:02
Speaker 1: broke the chase off at nine twenty seven pm.
32:04
Speaker 2: Pussy yeah, what a fucking asshole.
32:08
Speaker 1: And this was the statement he gave to Air Force investigators.
32:13
Speaker 1: I am convinced that there was definite thought behind its maneuvers.
32:17
Speaker 1: I am further convinced that the object was governed by
32:19
Speaker 1: the laws of inertia because its acceleration was rapid but
32:23
Speaker 1: not immediate, and although it was able to turn fairly
32:26
Speaker 1: tight at considerable speed, it's still followed a natural curve.
32:30
Speaker 1: When I attempted to turn with the object, I blacked
32:32
Speaker 1: out temporarily due to excessive speed. I am in fairly
32:36
Speaker 1: good physical condition, and I do not believe that there
32:38
Speaker 1: are many, if any pilots who could withstand the turn
32:42
Speaker 1: and speed affected by the object and remain conscious.
32:46
Speaker 4: Yeah, I real I would like to see him saying this,
32:48
Speaker 4: But he's just he's not a b He's saying everyone
32:51
Speaker 4: else would have passed out to you guys, you know,
32:53
Speaker 4: come on, lay off.
32:53
Speaker 7: He's just like just trying to get a joke in.
32:55
Speaker 5: I was gonna say, I just liked when he's like, yeah,
32:57
Speaker 5: I'm in pretty good shape. I imagine him just eating
32:59
Speaker 5: a big sandwich.
33:03
Speaker 1: The object was not only able to outturn and outspeed
33:06
Speaker 1: my aircraft, but was able to attain a far steeper
33:09
Speaker 1: climb and was able to maintain a constant rate of
33:12
Speaker 1: climb far in excess of my aircraft. Project sign finally
33:16
Speaker 1: got involved at one point. At first they examined his
33:20
Speaker 1: plane and determined that there's all this radiation that other
33:23
Speaker 1: planes don't have, so he must have come in contact
33:25
Speaker 1: with something that ran on, like nuclear power. But then
33:31
Speaker 1: later someone said, well, if you fly up that high,
33:34
Speaker 1: it's just there's radiation up there, and maybe that's why
33:36
Speaker 1: you were getting radiation on it. But this is another
33:40
Speaker 1: like the this was like the third thing that happened
33:43
Speaker 1: where Project Sign was like, Okay, so this might be
33:47
Speaker 1: real because this guy didn't have any like he's a
33:50
Speaker 1: reliable source. Yeah, that's a thing that becomes important, especially
33:54
Speaker 1: with the next episode where Project Blue Books starts breaking
33:57
Speaker 1: down how credible all these different reports are?
34:01
Speaker 2: Danger?
34:01
Speaker 4: How you doing I'm good, good, You've been very quiet.
34:05
Speaker 4: I'm just I'm just interested in these stories here. Soaking
34:08
Speaker 4: it in?
34:09
Speaker 2: Okay, soaking it in? Your name is danger? Do you
34:13
Speaker 2: chase the UFO if you're heavens?
34:15
Speaker 6: Yeah?
34:16
Speaker 4: No, no, no, Like, hey, you know what, there's a thing
34:18
Speaker 4: that I don't understand. I'm going on break.
34:22
Speaker 2: You know. We need to rename you sensible.
34:24
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll take that.
34:26
Speaker 2: I'll take that, Yeah, sensible.
34:28
Speaker 4: Van Gordon, middle name, very kind eyes.
34:45
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the estimate of the situation. Yes,
34:50
Speaker 1: this is the PROG album I love Yeah, I love
34:53
Speaker 1: the name of this thing.
34:55
Speaker 2: Rick Wakeman's estimate of the situation.
34:59
Speaker 5: Oh nice, it's a different band.
35:05
Speaker 2: The estimate of the situation was the WWF's.
35:10
Speaker 5: Estimate of the situation the Worst Paper View of nineteen
35:14
Speaker 5: eighty nine.
35:15
Speaker 1: It was the alleged end result of Projects Sign and
35:20
Speaker 1: sort of Project Grudge too, which like pops up the
35:24
Speaker 1: next year for about a.
35:25
Speaker 4: Year envious a Projects Sign. I couldn't hear a better name.
35:28
Speaker 7: It felt they could do better and it really Yeah.
35:32
Speaker 2: It showed up in the background of pictures.
35:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you get that reference, pal, Yeah, it's a movie.
35:39
Speaker 2: What's it called The Grudge?
35:41
Speaker 1: Oh?
35:41
Speaker 5: Good job? Oh I thought it was a Men in Black.
35:45
Speaker 5: The Grudge was dumb like the actual Men in Black.
35:48
Speaker 7: The original was pretty good though.
35:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, so so the estimate of the situation. It was
35:58
Speaker 1: allegedly written in nineteen forty by Project Sign members, and
36:02
Speaker 1: it supposedly explained Project Signs reasoning for concluding that the
36:06
Speaker 1: extraterrestrial hypothesis was the best explanation for unidentified flying objects.
36:14
Speaker 1: This is the holy grail of UFO research.
36:18
Speaker 2: And they could come up with a killer name.
36:20
Speaker 1: Well that's apparently an official government name for when you
36:26
Speaker 1: do a.
36:26
Speaker 2: Big research project like this. It should be called my
36:29
Speaker 2: shit right here. This is my shit right here.
36:33
Speaker 1: The first public report of the estimate was in Repelts
36:36
Speaker 1: Book in nineteen fifty six. So the same guy that
36:39
Speaker 1: ran Project Blue Book is the first guy who went
36:42
Speaker 1: public with the existence of the estimate of the situation.
36:46
Speaker 2: And oh my god, this is a long quote. I'm
36:48
Speaker 2: not gonna I'm not gonna read all that that.
36:51
Speaker 4: I'll read it for you.
36:52
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, welcome to the episode. Now.
36:53
Speaker 4: Every time in intelligence, if you have something to say
36:57
Speaker 4: about a vital problem, you write a report, and that
36:58
Speaker 4: is known as the estimate of the situation.
37:03
Speaker 6: A few days after the DC was buzzed.
37:06
Speaker 4: Parenthesis the Child's witded Ufo report, the people at a
37:09
Speaker 4: TIC decided that the time had arrived to make an
37:12
Speaker 4: estimate of the situation.
37:13
Speaker 6: The situation was UFOs.
37:14
Speaker 4: The stimate was that they were interplanetary exclamation point. It
37:18
Speaker 4: was a rather thick document with a black cover, and
37:20
Speaker 4: it was printed on legal sized paper stepped to gossiphon
37:22
Speaker 4: with the words top secret. It contains the Air Force's
37:25
Speaker 4: analyzes of the many incidents I have told you about,
37:28
Speaker 4: plus an analyses the many innocentence I have told you
37:35
Speaker 4: many similar ones.
37:37
Speaker 7: Truly analysis, I'm just saying the plural of analysis is
37:42
Speaker 7: isis uh yeah.
37:43
Speaker 2: My boy, go on danger.
37:49
Speaker 6: All of them have come from scientists.
37:50
Speaker 4: Pilots are the equally credible observers, and each one was
37:53
Speaker 4: an unknown. When the estimate was completed, typed and approved,
37:56
Speaker 4: it started up through channels to hire command echelons. It's
38:00
Speaker 4: your considerable comment that no one stopped it on its
38:02
Speaker 4: way up.
38:03
Speaker 1: So over the years, the Air Force has basically just
38:07
Speaker 1: flat out denied that this estimate of the situation even exists,
38:12
Speaker 1: and like they have basically shot down the idea that
38:15
Speaker 1: a team of scientists in the fifties got together and
38:20
Speaker 1: were convinced that UFOs were real.
38:23
Speaker 5: Right, the Air Force is just like, dude, I didn't
38:25
Speaker 5: say I fucking liked her in my diary.
38:26
Speaker 2: Shut the fuck up. Yeah, you were supposed to read that.
38:30
Speaker 1: But what's really interesting is that this book had to
38:34
Speaker 1: pass Air Force sensors because they're not going to let
38:38
Speaker 1: him put out like national security stuff or anything that's
38:41
Speaker 1: going to endanger us. So that's what makes me wonder
38:45
Speaker 1: is this book real, because if it is, for one thing,
38:49
Speaker 1: it would have been finished after he left Project Blue Book,
38:53
Speaker 1: because all of the stuff that results from Project Blue
38:55
Speaker 1: Book happens after the one guy who cared about it left.
39:00
Speaker 1: So with this book passing Air Force censors, I brought
39:03
Speaker 1: up mirage men before, and that's a documentary about this
39:06
Speaker 1: government agent who when people stumble onto something real, he
39:09
Speaker 1: goes out and gives them fake information and says, hey,
39:11
Speaker 1: I'm the government.
39:12
Speaker 2: You can trust me. It's coming from the government.
39:14
Speaker 1: And as soon as they publicize that information, the government's
39:17
Speaker 1: like what, yeah, you fucking crazy person. That could be
39:21
Speaker 1: what's happening here where the Air Force saw that in
39:25
Speaker 1: his book and was like, no, that's not real, but
39:29
Speaker 1: let's put him Let's let him put it in the
39:30
Speaker 1: book anyway. Yeah, and we'll just see what people say.
39:34
Speaker 1: And then now every year after year they're like, what uhuh.
39:38
Speaker 5: That's not a real thing, right right, So similar to
39:41
Speaker 5: the Russwell thing where you know they released in the newspaper.
39:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
39:45
Speaker 5: Yeah, which I have that on a coffee cup that
39:48
Speaker 5: I bought uh at the at the International UFO.
39:51
Speaker 4: Music But were you saying that you're not sure if
39:53
Speaker 4: this book exists the Repelts book.
39:56
Speaker 2: No, Repels book obviously exists.
39:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just found on an Amazon.
40:00
Speaker 2: No, why would we be questioning if that.
40:02
Speaker 6: Book sounded like that? That's what you were saying.
40:05
Speaker 2: Are you even still listening to the barely? But why
40:09
Speaker 2: did you want to do.
40:09
Speaker 4: This episode because I like you.
40:11
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's fun to follow on Twitter.
40:17
Speaker 6: So and I'm excited to finally meet Rivers.
40:20
Speaker 4: I like his fun.
40:21
Speaker 6: I like his fun, Rivers fun.
40:24
Speaker 2: I like this fun. Yeah, that's my new Twitter bio
40:27
Speaker 2: estimate of the situation. I like his fun.
40:33
Speaker 4: I misheard something you said, please continue.
40:35
Speaker 5: No, what he's saying is that this this exists, but
40:38
Speaker 5: we're not sure if it's if it actually came from
40:40
Speaker 5: the government, if for someone just made it the fuck.
40:42
Speaker 1: Up, right, Yeah, and but that was in nineteen fifty six,
40:46
Speaker 1: is when rumors of this book existing, this book where
40:51
Speaker 1: science gets together and convinces themselves based on evidence that
40:56
Speaker 1: UFOs are extraterrestrial.
40:58
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like the Chinese democracy of government documents, right
41:03
Speaker 5: or smiled or something like that, And.
41:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, they've No one's ever been able to get anywhere
41:08
Speaker 1: with Freedom of Information Act requests about this book. So
41:12
Speaker 1: depending on who you believe, that's how Project Sign ends
41:16
Speaker 1: or Project Sign just ends and becomes Project Grudge, Yeah,
41:20
Speaker 1: which also ends really quick.
41:22
Speaker 2: And then we get to Project Blue Book.
41:23
Speaker 7: Yeah, calling any like saying that any of the like
41:26
Speaker 7: Project Sign or Grudge saying that the end always feels
41:29
Speaker 7: kind of weird because they continue the same work with
41:34
Speaker 7: most of the same staff.
41:36
Speaker 2: It just.
41:38
Speaker 7: Changes names several times.
41:40
Speaker 1: Danger what's your take on this, like on the UFOs,
41:46
Speaker 1: on not on UFOs, but on the idea that this
41:49
Speaker 1: Do you think the government Do you think the government
41:51
Speaker 1: put out a extensive book about how they believe UFOs
41:56
Speaker 1: were real?
41:56
Speaker 4: I mean, if they had, I'm sure that the Freedom
42:01
Speaker 4: of Information Act would have uncovered something, some record of
42:04
Speaker 4: it somewhere. I think that I'm sure, I'm certain this
42:08
Speaker 4: guy wants this thing to exist. But that's a lot
42:11
Speaker 4: of that's a lot of effort to then not only
42:14
Speaker 4: produce this thing, but then destroy it without ever having
42:18
Speaker 4: any record of any of it. I mean, we know
42:20
Speaker 4: what our government, by and large, we know the sins
42:23
Speaker 4: of our government, you know, and we can especially believe that,
42:26
Speaker 4: and we can especially tell when they're like, don't look
42:29
Speaker 4: at this, it's that there's nothing there, but like, well,
42:32
Speaker 4: there's some evidence, and there's some paper trails, and look
42:34
Speaker 4: at all this, and you know that there's there are
42:36
Speaker 4: things that happen. But if this book, I mean, it
42:40
Speaker 4: just sounds keep.
42:41
Speaker 1: In mind that when when all of this technically concludes like, weirdly,
42:46
Speaker 1: all of our really shady government programs end around the
42:50
Speaker 1: time of Watergate, when everyone's like fucking shred every.
42:57
Speaker 2: And we were just like, nope, we're not doing any
42:59
Speaker 2: of that anyhow. It's like the at the Embassy, it's
43:01
Speaker 2: like burn everything. Yeah.
43:03
Speaker 1: And a good example of that was mk ultra, Oh,
43:06
Speaker 1: which was are you familiar with mk ultra? It was
43:09
Speaker 1: a literal government program that lasted fucking thirty.
43:14
Speaker 4: Or forty years. Was like LSD on folks.
43:17
Speaker 2: A lot of stuff.
43:18
Speaker 1: It was way more than just LSD. It was a
43:21
Speaker 1: mind control program that we worked on for decades. It
43:23
Speaker 1: might have involved kids, like it probably.
43:26
Speaker 2: Involved as well.
43:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, right right, and we would not have known about
43:31
Speaker 1: that if not like they destroyed most of their documents,
43:35
Speaker 1: and the only way we ever found out the full
43:38
Speaker 1: extent of that program was twenty thousand documents got filed
43:42
Speaker 1: in the wrong place.
43:45
Speaker 2: And at what happened.
43:47
Speaker 1: The CIA came out after like word of mk ultra spread,
43:51
Speaker 1: they were like okay, yeah, but like it wasn't massive.
43:55
Speaker 1: People are saying it was massive, and then a few
43:59
Speaker 1: years later we find these twenty thousand files and the
44:02
Speaker 1: CIA has to come back out and go.
44:04
Speaker 2: It was pretty mass. It was huge large.
44:08
Speaker 1: It involved something like one hundred and fifty hospitals and
44:12
Speaker 1: universities around the United States. Yeah, and Canada. Wait, we
44:17
Speaker 1: got them and they're nice people.
44:19
Speaker 2: Leave them alone.
44:20
Speaker 1: One of the craziest figures in the MK Ultra story
44:24
Speaker 1: is this Canadian psychiatrist who went on to be the
44:29
Speaker 1: first person in charge of I think both the Canadian
44:32
Speaker 1: and American Psychiatric Boards, and like his whole thing was
44:39
Speaker 1: basically drugging people and then playing a loop of whatever
44:44
Speaker 1: memory he wanted them to either have or not have anymore.
44:49
Speaker 1: And he called it psychic driving.
44:51
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I know that.
44:54
Speaker 4: And album from the Men.
44:57
Speaker 1: And like, these were the kind of people running a
44:59
Speaker 1: legit government program that we pumped millions of dollars into.
45:03
Speaker 1: So we were looking at fucking aliens. Yeah, oh for sure.
45:06
Speaker 2: Yeah. What was Project Grudge? By the way, can can
45:10
Speaker 2: can y'all give.
45:11
Speaker 7: Me like a It is basically the same idea as
45:14
Speaker 7: Project Sign and just like I think it was a
45:17
Speaker 7: little bit smaller scale.
45:19
Speaker 2: Because it sounds badass. Yeah, oh yeah, they're all great names,
45:23
Speaker 2: really good names.
45:24
Speaker 7: Yeah, but yeah, it was it was basically the continuation
45:28
Speaker 7: of Project signs.
45:29
Speaker 2: Okay, So when it comes.
45:30
Speaker 7: To like whether or not this book existed, I mean,
45:34
Speaker 7: I don't know. It's tough. Repel is a really credible
45:38
Speaker 7: person who doesn't really have a lot of motivation to lie.
45:45
Speaker 7: I mean like he wants his life's work or part
45:48
Speaker 7: of his life's work to I guess have meant something.
45:50
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, a significant motivate.
45:52
Speaker 2: It is.
45:53
Speaker 6: It is.
45:53
Speaker 7: But also at the same time, like I don't think
45:56
Speaker 7: that's enough to discredit things that he says, because he
46:01
Speaker 7: has seen a lot of stuff. And also the person
46:04
Speaker 7: I mentioned earlier, Jayleen Heinich, had nothing but praise for Repelled.
46:11
Speaker 7: He was one of like two or three people that
46:14
Speaker 7: he worked with through all three projects who he felt
46:16
Speaker 7: was open minded and honest and like trying to legitimately
46:21
Speaker 7: find the truth.
46:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's what you hear about this Repelled guy
46:25
Speaker 1: in general, is that he and we'll talk about it
46:27
Speaker 1: more next episode, but he's like one of the last
46:30
Speaker 1: people in government who actually looked at this in a
46:34
Speaker 1: serious way without getting in like going in with bias.
46:38
Speaker 1: He actually not to give too much away from next episode,
46:41
Speaker 1: but at one point when he was running Project Blue Book,
46:44
Speaker 1: if anyone under him became too skeptical or too convinced. Yeah,
46:49
Speaker 1: he would kick him off the team because he did
46:51
Speaker 1: not want people who were biased in any way.
46:54
Speaker 7: It was really like an admirable effort by most members
46:57
Speaker 7: of the team to try to be as neutral on
46:59
Speaker 7: this as possible, because they understood how easy it is,
47:03
Speaker 7: I think, to get carried away on both sides.
47:05
Speaker 1: So he fires scullies and molders exactly exactly, and it
47:10
Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting how it mirrors what kind
47:13
Speaker 1: of happened with the EPA.
47:15
Speaker 2: Do we even have the e p A anymore? Like
47:18
Speaker 2: I don't.
47:19
Speaker 5: I'm passively like talking about the EPA will date this episode.
47:22
Speaker 1: Out, like like the if the e PA showed up
47:25
Speaker 1: at my door right now, it would be like when
47:27
Speaker 1: I saw Joe Namath in a commercial the other day,
47:29
Speaker 1: I was like.
47:29
Speaker 2: What, you are still alive? Oh yeah, Oh I'm from Alabama.
47:34
Speaker 2: Joe Namath is still.
47:36
Speaker 7: I think it's still technically exists despite everything our government
47:40
Speaker 7: is trying to do.
47:41
Speaker 2: Right.
47:41
Speaker 5: Yeah, his his fur coat is covered in mites, but
47:44
Speaker 5: he's still Broadway.
47:46
Speaker 2: Joe, go fuck yourself or or eagle anyway.
47:49
Speaker 7: And the e PA's code is all covered in mites too.
47:51
Speaker 4: It's really eas Yeah, they've only got the one.
47:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, weird that they have a fur coat. Yea, well no,
47:58
Speaker 2: it's made out of a stinct to mammals.
48:01
Speaker 1: Oh.
48:01
Speaker 7: Sure, something's gonna happen.
48:03
Speaker 1: So does anyone have any final thoughts on projects sign
48:07
Speaker 1: before we?
48:07
Speaker 2: Uh?
48:08
Speaker 7: Nothing that I don't think we'll get to next week.
48:11
Speaker 4: I feel like if they had the Internet at this
48:13
Speaker 4: point in time and they'd released whatever, if this black
48:17
Speaker 4: book exists, and they'd put it out into the Internet,
48:21
Speaker 4: the skeptical community, I.
48:23
Speaker 7: Mean, the estimate of the situation.
48:24
Speaker 4: The estimate situation, that's right. Uh, I'm sure, uh, the
48:29
Speaker 4: skeptical Internet would see it and be like, nah, whatever,
48:32
Speaker 4: I don't believe it. And the same token, like, there'd
48:35
Speaker 4: be just as many people who are already convinced of
48:38
Speaker 4: the you know, whatever it is that they believe, and
48:40
Speaker 4: that's all right, here's the evidence.
48:41
Speaker 2: You know.
48:42
Speaker 4: It just seems like had there been more information sharing
48:47
Speaker 4: infrastructure at that point in time, like, I'm not sure
48:51
Speaker 4: that it would have any more effect on what people
48:56
Speaker 4: ultimately believe, because this is that's really what it boils
48:59
Speaker 4: down to. It was like believe so.
49:02
Speaker 5: You're saying if more people saw the sign, it wouldn't
49:05
Speaker 5: necessarily open up their eyes.
49:06
Speaker 1: No, okay, wow references. I'm sending as base an invoice
49:15
Speaker 1: my ad revenue after this. So yeah, we're going to
49:18
Speaker 1: talk about Project blue Book next. And uh, I think
49:23
Speaker 1: I think it's it's gonna be an interesting episode because
49:26
Speaker 1: it uh, because we're.
49:27
Speaker 2: Gonna do it naked.
49:28
Speaker 1: We're gonna do it. We're gonna do it. Okay, we're
49:33
Speaker 1: all gonna do hyahuasca first. Oh well, now I'm did I.
49:40
Speaker 2: Tell that we'll talk about it the same it for
49:43
Speaker 2: boat though.
49:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh, Olivia has a concussion.
49:48
Speaker 7: Now, I just was worried about making noise.
49:53
Speaker 5: We need to get more people on the Patreon and
49:54
Speaker 5: then we could get the uh the foam behind it.
49:58
Speaker 1: Put phone behind the skow curtains. I don't know why
50:01
Speaker 1: I didn't. I feel like they dampen the noise enough.
50:05
Speaker 1: What the hell those were a bitch to put up.
50:07
Speaker 1: I'm just looking out for Olivia's safety here.
50:09
Speaker 2: Oh I'm not.
50:10
Speaker 7: I want to make everyone clear. I am fine. I
50:15
Speaker 7: bumped my head against the wall. I was more concerned
50:17
Speaker 7: about noise for the neighbors.
50:18
Speaker 5: I'm just saying as a as a person prone to gesticulation, I.
50:22
Speaker 1: Appreciate it, all right, let's get the fuck out of here, Olivia,
50:25
Speaker 1: say goodbye bye wherever.
50:27
Speaker 2: Say goodbye, Guden dog.
50:30
Speaker 6: That's all.
50:31
Speaker 5: No good day, It's good day, sir, or should I
50:34
Speaker 5: say air Dangler.
50:37
Speaker 4: I'll feel the saying goodbye everybody.
50:38
Speaker 2: We love you.
50:44
Speaker 1: People you're playing. It has