Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / Pat Forde on Crazy Dan Hurley, Billy Donovan to UNC Rumors, Will Wade to LSU | 04.01

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Pat Forde on Crazy Dan Hurley, Billy Donovan to UNC Rumors, Will Wade to LSU | 04.01 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A wave original.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Beaumont Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
• 0:11
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• 0:15
  Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: a hater. It is that time of week where we
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: have a guest join us, coming to us from SI.com.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: It is final four week with the weekend coming up.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Pat Forty, what's going on?
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  Speaker 2: Hey, Bo. Great to be on with you. Should be
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: a great Final Four. I know that you may still
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: be highly amused and enjoying the demise of Duke, but
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: the rest of us certainly were amazed by that shot
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  Speaker 2: and that story as well.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It's going to take everything in me to wait until
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: the second half of the show to talk about what's
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: going on there.
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  Speaker 3: It was a good day for a lot of people, man.
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  Speaker 3: It was actually interesting.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Was it Chris Vannini at The Athletic?
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: He had hit me up.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: It was funny because I became aware of him because
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I used to send out a tweet every year to
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: be like, hey, tell me who's covering these teams for
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: college papers, because that's a great way to find who's
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  Speaker 1: going to be next. I met my good buddy John
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  Speaker 1: Jones at CBS, for example, was doing that.
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  Speaker 3: And Chris was at Michigan State at the time.
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  Speaker 1: And then he hits me and says, hey, I'm doing
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  Speaker 1: this story about whether people hate Duke as much as
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: they used to.
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  Speaker 3: You want to talk about it? And I was like, okay, cool.
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  Speaker 1: We can talk about it. And I told him I
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: thought it had died down. But I was somewhat incorrect.
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  Speaker 1: That being said, I am disappointed a little bit that
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  Speaker 1: they're not in this Final Four. But this is a
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: strong Final Four. I feel like we've got with Arizona, Michigan, UConn,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: and Illinois.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: It's great. It's a really good Final Four. I think
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  Speaker 2: on the one side you have– Two of the three
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  Speaker 2: dominant teams for the whole season in Arizona and Michigan.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: The third one, hmm, oh, we know what happened to them.
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  Speaker 2: But you got, I think, outstanding teams with very few
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: weaknesses and they're going to play each other. And I
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  Speaker 2: think the winner of that will win the championship. But
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  Speaker 2: on the other side, you have the dominant program of
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  Speaker 2: the 21st century, UConn, and also winner of two of
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: the last three national championships and getting there on an
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: all-time play and shot. And then you got an Illinois
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  Speaker 2: team that's been outstanding all season as well. Number one
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: offense in the country in the analytics. Some people say
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  Speaker 2: the number one offense analytically of all time with the,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: you know, Balkan invasion of players from Europe there. It's
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: fascinating to me. You've got, you know, the Big Ten's
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: chance to finally break through and win a championship, which
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: I think has been almost as much a matter of mere, like,
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  Speaker 2: coincidence as any real fundamental weakness there. And we can
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: talk about that. But you've got, again, the UConn, the
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: dominant brand out there. And you've got the possibility of
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Arizona winning a championship again for the first time since 1997,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: also in Indianapolis. So there's a lot to chew on.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: All right.
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  Speaker 1: So I want to start with UConn because you just
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: said something that. It's an interesting discussion, which is UConn
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: as the most dominant program of the 21st century, which
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: is interesting because it has not been the most consistent
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: program of the 21st century, right? So, like, North Carolina,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: for example, has basically been 50, 60 years of consistency.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: There have been a couple of blips here and there,
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  Speaker 1: but by and large, they're the most spoiled fans in
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  Speaker 1: sports because the floor has been so high decade after
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  Speaker 1: decade after decade. But quietly, UConn has won six national
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: championships with three different coaches in the last 26 years.
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  Speaker 1: I think this is the 27th we're talking about because
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  Speaker 1: they won the first one in 1999 with no actual
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  Speaker 1: factual built-in advantage as to why they should have been
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  Speaker 1: so successful.
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  Speaker 3: But they have.
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  Speaker 1: But it doesn't feel like they are what you have
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  Speaker 1: described except the fact they've won six national championships in
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  Speaker 1: 27 years. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: In a period in which Carolina's won three, Duke's won three, right?
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  Speaker 2: They've literally doubled them in that period of time. So
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  Speaker 2: if you grant them the grace period to go back
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  Speaker 2: to 99 and start there and go forward, in terms
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: of hardware, yeah. Now your point is absolutely right in
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: terms of the consistency where, you know, Duke and Carolina
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  Speaker 2: have been to plenty of Final Fours, but not one. Right.
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  Speaker 2: You can't either go to the Final Four and win
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  Speaker 2: it all, or they don't go to the Final Four.
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  Speaker 2: And sometimes they crash out early. Sometimes they don't make
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: the tournament. Sometimes they're on probation, whatever. But to have
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  Speaker 2: done it with three different coaches, as you said, poor
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Kevin Olley, he just kind of gets flyover. It's like Calhoun, Hurley. Oh, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: there was that one title in 2014 when everyone was
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  Speaker 2: terrible and you guys won it. Um, it's, it's remarkable.
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  Speaker 2: It really is. And like you said, no built-in advantages.
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  Speaker 2: People have been to stores. No, there are no built-in
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  Speaker 2: advantages there. And by whatever miracle, they were able to
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  Speaker 2: get kids from Houston and Los Angeles and Seattle to
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: come to stores. I don't know, but I mean, they
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  Speaker 2: built some powerful teams with some great players over a
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  Speaker 2: long period of time.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the Kevin Olley flyover is interesting because it
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: was a weird year in 2014, right? Because part of
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  Speaker 1: it was that was the year Kansas had Embiid and
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  Speaker 1: Embiid got hurt and they wound up losing the second round.
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  Speaker 3: Wichita State was undefeated.
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  Speaker 2: And then.
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  Speaker 1: You could have made a documentary about it if they
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  Speaker 1: had won. That was the year of that Kentucky team
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  Speaker 1: that barely made the tournament, but they were loaded. And
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  Speaker 1: then they kind of screwed Wichita State over because they
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: had a made-for-TV round of 32 game, but they won
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  Speaker 1: every game by a point or two, a point or two,
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  Speaker 1: a point or two. And then they got up against
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  Speaker 1: this UConn team, the Shabazz Napier team, that nobody thought
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  Speaker 1: was that good. And next thing you know, they were
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  Speaker 1: national champions. Then you fast forward to Hurley, and look,
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  Speaker 1: Calhoun to me, is the most underrated of the great
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  Speaker 1: coaches of that time for all the reasons that we
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: just spelled out. Like even getting UConn competitive before the title,
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  Speaker 1: like starting really in 1990 in that era of the
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Big East, again, with no advantages, right? Because I think
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  Speaker 1: eventually they became kind of a go-to program in the Northeast,
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  Speaker 1: but it had to become that. And they weren't that,
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  Speaker 1: but they still had that team I think where Christian
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  Speaker 1: Layton to beat him with the shot in 1990, the
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  Speaker 1: Tate George team, but you get the Ray Allen team
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  Speaker 1: in 1996, you've got all these others. And now you
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  Speaker 1: get Hurley and Hurley and Calhoun. They don't care if
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: we like them, they're just going to win some games.
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  Speaker 1: And it's good that they don't care if we like
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  Speaker 1: them because they make it really difficult.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, they do. And Calhoun always did. I mean, part
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  Speaker 2: of what made him good was he was so pugnacious
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  Speaker 2: all the time with everyone. You know, I mean, that
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  Speaker 2: dude was hard to get along with and also very
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  Speaker 2: hard to beat because he was so hard to get
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  Speaker 2: along with. He refused to accept anything other than, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to get the best players and then I'm
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  Speaker 2: going to beat you. So he was a force of nature. And, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: to have done it there, they had no history, no tradition,
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  Speaker 2: none of that. Come in and see our banners up here.
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  Speaker 2: You know, they had none. And then all of a
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  Speaker 2: sudden the switch flips in the 90s, and then by 99–
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  Speaker 2: When they beat, at that time, people were saying that
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  Speaker 2: Duke team was one of the greatest teams of all time.
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  Speaker 3: And it was.
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  Speaker 2: It was a wagon. Helton Brand and Trajan Langdon and whoever. Anyway,
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  Speaker 2: but then since then, yeah, incredible. And then the Dan
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  Speaker 2: Hurley thing has been unbelievable. And he is a phenomenal coach.
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  Speaker 2: And he is very much like Calhoun in terms of like,
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  Speaker 2: he rides that ragged edge between I'm going to coach
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  Speaker 2: or I'm going to fight. Like, I mean, talk about
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: being on that edge. I still cannot believe he did
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  Speaker 2: what he did with Roger Ayers, the official. You have
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  Speaker 2: just had this massive shot to win one of the
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  Speaker 2: biggest games of your life. And your reaction after pulling
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  Speaker 2: your coat half off of your body is to then
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  Speaker 2: get in the face, face to face with Roger Ayers
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  Speaker 2: and almost like provoke a confrontation. Roger Ayers, I think
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  Speaker 2: it is very fortunate for Danny Hurley. The Roger Ayers
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  Speaker 2: is not the guy to make a scene and is
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  Speaker 2: not going to afterwards say, yeah, he shouldn't have done that.
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  Speaker 2: In fact, he'll go the other way and say, no,
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  Speaker 2: that was my fault. I shouldn't have been this way,
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  Speaker 2: you know, but what are you, what is possibly going
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  Speaker 2: on in his mind at that point? What are you doing?
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  Speaker 3: He's a crazy person.
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  Speaker 1: And I have to say, and I've talked about this
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  Speaker 1: on other shows.
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  Speaker 3: I'm glad we got one of these back, right?
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  Speaker 1: Like coaches have gotten kind.
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  Speaker 3: Of boring, right?
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  Speaker 1: Like he doesn't seem to go all the way into
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  Speaker 1: the full night territory where we're having now a completely
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: different discussion about what it is. But no, this is,
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  Speaker 1: he's that guy. Because Calhoun, Calhoun wasn't a fun jerk.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: He was just kind of an obvious jerk, right? Like
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  Speaker 1: Hurley is walk out the tunnel and boo him.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
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  Speaker 1: You know, we, we, we don't have a lot of
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: those guys left. And also you hit it, man. It's
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: a really, really good coach. Like there's, there's no way
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  Speaker 1: around this in this team, which it kind of struggled
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  Speaker 1: to hold it together all year. And he's, he said
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: it would get better.
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  Speaker 3: It got better.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he's, he's a, he's a brilliant coach and
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: outstanding coach. His father, you know, I think is one
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: of the great pure basketball coaches ever at Jersey city, St. Anthony's,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: you know, he just, he stayed at the high school level.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: And Dan, I think, is not far from him in
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways. Ability to motivate, ability to X
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: and O and strategize and those sorts of things. And then, yeah,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: you're right. He is the fun jerk. Because he does,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: he is a magnet for everything, for praise, for criticism.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: And he's like, bring it on. I don't care. And
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: then eventually, the hilarious thing, what kills me, Bo, is.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Like every single year, maybe once, maybe twice, maybe even
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: three times a year, Danny will have this self-actualization moment
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: and say, yeah, you know, I need to do things
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: differently and I've lit candles and I do some yoga
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: and this sort of thing. And so I think, no, no,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: you're the same wild man all the time. You can
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: say it, but it doesn't matter. You're the same wild man.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: And that's just the way he's wired. And it's great
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: for the sport, frankly.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: Let me tell you a bizarre world I just thought of.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Like, what if he had been the one to go
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: to Duke and Bobby had been the one to go
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: somewhere else? Because Bobby does not take to that. Like,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: after being coached by his father, Krzyzewski could not quite
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: deal with Hurley the way he dealt with everybody else
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: because of what it was. And if you haven't read
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Adrian Wojnarowski's book, The Miracle of St. Anthony, it's worth
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: checking out. And I felt like it soft-pelled a little
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: bit the intensity of Bob Hurley Sr.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: As coach.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: But if you had put Hurley and Krzyzewski together, I mean, look,
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  Speaker 1: Hurley did enough to himself.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: When he was in college, just being over the top
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: about this.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: He did.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: Illinois, I watched them.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: And it's funny you talked about the Balkans because I
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: talked about on this show. Chicago is a very Eastern
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: European city. And it was the first time that I
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: looked out and was like, hey, you guys may have
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: been missing out on a little advantage you guys might
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: have had going around there. But that game against Iowa,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: which I thought the final score did.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Not indicate it.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: That was a really good game. And they had to
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: really keep it together in order to win that game. Like,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: what do you think their chances are against UConn?
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they're better than UConn. We'll see if
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: they're as well coached and kind of still have that
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: championship DNA, you know, that Alex Caravan-led team will probably have.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: But I think Illinois is better. Yes, the game against
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Iowa impressed me because in the past, Brad Underwood teams
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: have found a moment in the tournament where they'll just
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: freak out and melt down. If you remember... I think
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: it was against Duke in the regional final a couple
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: of years ago where they were outscored like 100 to
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: nothing to start the second half. It's like a good
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: game and all of a sudden it is the worst
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: game you've ever watched. And you're like, Illinois should just
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: leave the floor. Just give up, go get your stuff
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: and get on the bus. Before that, they lost to Loyola, Illinois, Loyola,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Chicago in the second round with a really good team.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: So to break through, I think to win that game
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: in some stressful situations against a coach that was just
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: going to make you play his aggravating slow style was impressive.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And the way they did it, they just, they pounded
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: their advantage, man. They just took it inside with their
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: two seven footers and their six nine guy and just
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: went to the rim and made it happen. And I
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: think they're equipped certainly to win one game, possibly to
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: win two in Indy. If you catch, a worn-out opponent
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: in the Monday night game, which has happened before. Five-slam
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: at JAMA against North Carolina State. Wisconsin, I think, in
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: 2015 against Duke after beating undefeated Kentucky. It's hard to
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: have 80 minutes of max intensity at the Final Four.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: It is a different world, obviously, now, but Illinois is
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: such an interesting program historically where one could argue the
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: great underachiever That given a lot of the advantages that
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: one would have expected that they had, especially when the
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: game was a lot more regional, that this is a
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: team that has been to so few Final Fours historically.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: But I feel like we're out of time as much
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: as anything else.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: You can sneak one, right? Like just about anybody can
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: sneak one.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah. No, absolutely. Yes, it could be done. And that, yeah,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: like the 2005 team was an outstanding team. They just
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: ran into an outstanding North Carolina team in a great game.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: One of the, I think, underrated championship games. The 1989
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: team that lost to Michigan. Michigan wins the title. That
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: took a putback shot by Sean Higgins at the final
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: couple seconds for Michigan to win that. Those were good
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Illinois teams. Historically, you're 100% correct. The school, with that
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: proximity to Chicago and other great areas of basketball, has
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: produced zero national championships is crazy. But... I think the
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: program is positioned now. Hey, yes, you're going to Croatia
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: and Serbia, wherever you got to go to get guys.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: But they're getting guys and they've got a program that's built,
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: I think, for the long haul.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of those programs that has it's like
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Coach Legend, who was really good at ball rolling.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: You know, your alma mater got one of those. A
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: ball roller's name, I believe, is on the court. But
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: it was always fun to watch him.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's funny, you know, like
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: as a Missouri alum, people think Norm Strode was Bob
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Knight in terms of tactical genius. No, no. I hate
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: to inform you that was not the case. It was
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: the best teams had very good players and still never
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: made a Final Four. So, yeah, man.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: So we got the other game. Michigan, Arizona is very interesting.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: One. Michigan, at their best, looks just about as good
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: as anybody can, in part because they've got a guy
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: in his physical prime at 37 years old bringing the
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: ball up the floor every time.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: But he looked– the axle, he looked dominant over the weekend.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: It was unbelievable. Like, that guy– that's why I said,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean– It was pretty clear, I think,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: most people thought Boozer was the best player this year.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: There's no doubt who's the best player still playing. It's
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Yaxa Lindemore. He's 23 years old, three years of JUCO,
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Arizona Western, two years of UAB. And then talk about
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: going to the right place at the right time. Holy cow.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Him with Dusty May has been a lethal combination. And
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: he's showing the full arsenal now. You know, he was
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: just like wild man, offensive rebounder at UAB. Now the
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: offensive game is incredible running the floor. And with the
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: guys that are around him, he's just a perfect fit there. And,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: and he's playing great. And yeah, I mean, Michigan is,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: is just crushing people again. They, they, they were doing
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: that early in the year and then, you know, people,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: it's the big 10. You're not going to crush everybody,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: but then what they've done in the tournament has been
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: extremely impressive. And I actually, I tweeted, I think it
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: was December 13th. I said, I'm tempted to take Michigan
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: and Arizona against the field. One of the few times
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: I may actually be right, I still could end up
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: being wrong, but those two teams I think have been
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: that good all year.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in watching the game that Michigan played against Tennessee,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: and I mean, Tennessee was just overmatched. As much as
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I love to get off a good Rick Barnes joke,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: I don't think that there was anything that Rick Barnes
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: could have possibly... Rick Barnes, by the way, has gotten
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: into three straight Elite Eights. Let's just throw that out
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: there for those of us who are always kind of like, eh,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know about that guy. Okay, sometimes you just
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: need 35 years, right? Before you, you know, really hit
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: your stride and get to the place that you're supposed
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: to be.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: But.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: The way that Landenborg played, I didn't even realize he
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: was a big man in the way that he's just
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: getting the ball, facing up, taking it to the basket
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: with a coach that if Florida Atlantic doesn't go on.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: That run, I don't know where he is. Like it
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: was all like, like.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: That was another one where it's kind of like, you know,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: that was a pretty ambitious hire that you made considering
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: there wasn't that much of a track record and it's
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: clearly paid off.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. No, Dusty Mays is a superstar, man. It's unbelievable.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: And yeah, like the first couple of years at, at, uh,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: at FAU were not very good, but the program sucked and,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: you know, he didn't have anything. And then all of
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: a sudden he puts together this team 2023 and you're
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: watching them. And I thought they were just phenomenal. It
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: was just like, how did they go from zero to
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: a hundred like this? And then he kept most of
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: them for the next year. And they were really good
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: in 2024 as well, made the tournament again. Uh, and I,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: I really, I was a believer in Dusty and, and boy,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: the market was very hot for him. Michigan outflanked, uh, Louisville,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Louisville wanted him badly. Vanderbilt was in on it. Ohio
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: State made a fateful decision to keep Jake Diebler interim coach.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: When I think that's who would have had interest in
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: that job. And he goes to your arch rival and
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: takes the arch rival to the final four. An elite
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: eight in the first year, final four in the second year.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Not bad.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: By the way, that was him.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, one other thing. Sorry to interrupt. Indiana made the
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: fateful decision to keep Mike Woodson at the behest of
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: some interested alums, including Quinn Buckner, instead of getting rid
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: of him when they could have brought Dusty May home.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: And they didn't. And he goes again. He goes to
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: a Big Ten rival.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a run number one.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: That was a great year to be the number one
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: guy to try to hire. Let's just throw that part
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: out there. The names that you throw out all looking
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: for coaches or potentially looking for coaches at the same time.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: Big win for that guy. You would also mention that.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Earlier, the Big Ten, or just the larger discussion of
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: the Big Ten, because if we're talking... 10 years ago,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I think is even safe to say 15 is even safer.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: The big 10 in both football and men's basketball, big
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: name results.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: Not quite right.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: It was, it was, but it was truly a quaint
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, a quaint regional conference.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: They enjoy playing against each other. It had always been
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: the concern, but the.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Money game has changed up so much. And now they
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: are an absolute force in everything.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no doubt about it. Women's basketball and other
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: sports as well. But yeah, the money has changed things
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: for sure. You know, the streak of no title since 2000, hey,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: it's a thing for real. They had a lot of chances.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: They had that good Illinois team. I mentioned.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: In 05. They had... Good Michigan teams that ran into
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Louisville and Villanova. They had Wisconsin in 2015. Ohio State
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: with Greg Oden that ran into the second year of
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: the Florida dynasty. So they had chances. They just didn't
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: have the best team. This year, it looks very much
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: like they might have the best team, unless Arizona says otherwise.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: And this season, I thought it was by far the
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: best league. So you combine what they're doing right now
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: with what the football has done with three different champions
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: in three different years. And you look at the revenue,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: going back to when they brought in those schools, they
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: killed the Pac-12 and juiced up the media contracts. It's
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: been a game changer.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and doing what you can to beef up the
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: middle of the conference matters in things like Nebraska being good.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Because I think they have been down for so long,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: but it's easy to forget. Like Danny Knee in the
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: 90s had a team there that consistently made it to
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: the NCAA tournament. Back when the game was to get
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: you a coach that was from New York and had
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: a line to New York, and there were always boys
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: that needed to get far away from home. Look, Nebraska's
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: whole recruiting strategy in football and basketball for decades was,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: We could keep them out of trouble.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: Send them all the way over here. We could keep
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: them out of trouble.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Didn't always work in football in terms of keeping them
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: out of trouble, but they still won a lot of games.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the problem.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: When you get a bunch of people that are supposed
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: to be kept out of trouble, they get each other
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: into trouble once they wind up in the same place.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: But I think you're right.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Like adding UCLA and, you know, the weirdest program to
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: evaluate how good they should or should not be based
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: on history and everything else. but you add them to
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: your basketball conference, you're going to get better. And this
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: is at a time right now where Maryland, which should
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: be better at everything, but Maryland's at the bottom of
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: the conference now.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: Indiana, which I don't know.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: About you, but I always feel like it could still happen, right?
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Like this is, it's, the idea that Indiana is no
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: longer a blue blood, one, I don't think that's how
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: blue blood stuff works, but two, the right person can
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: make that job go because they care so much.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent. They care. That's it. And that's, you know,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: it's like, Texas football, eventually you get the right guy
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: and it all works, right? I mean, I absolutely believe
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: it will happen. There's still so many players there. Braylon Mullins,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: the shot makers from Greenfield, Indiana. Kyle Guy on the
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: Virginia National Championship team is from Indianapolis. John L. Davis
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: from the Florida Atlantic Final Four team is from Gary.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: All the Purdue guys are from Indiana. If Indiana gets
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: some of those guys with the right coach, if you're
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: recruiting right, and then you're coaching them right, you're there.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: There's players in that state. There still are, there always
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: will be, and they want to win. They want to
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: be good.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, we have, I remember, I think it was
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: a Mike Davis left that job.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: It was a column that you wrote.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: That was just, let's run through all the guys from
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Indiana that if they played for you, Indiana, Indiana would
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: be the number one team in America. Like you could
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: do that for the last 20 years. And they used
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: to get them. That was the thing about it. Even
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: if half of them go to Purdue, like this is
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: a place that still produces players. And if you get
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: the money, right, these guys, you said it, they want
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: to stay like that. That's where they want to be.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Sure. And that's like Braylon Mullins. Going to UConn, who
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: can blame a guy for going to UConn right now?
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: But if Indiana were on top of its stuff, I
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: would have to think he would have stayed and gone
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: to school at IU.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: No, absolutely.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Now, Arizona right fast, they're going to grind it out, right?
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: They're the team that's decided we're going to play this
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: style of basketball. I think it was Tommy Lloyd that
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: made the interesting point that in this day and age,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: the game now is less about trying to shoot a
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: bunch of threes than getting– good twos because the good
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: teams are going to be physically superior to their competition.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: And that's, that's, that's the game.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean, that's, that's it. They have just said,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: you know what we are, we're going to play to
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: our strength and our strength is we're huge and we're
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: physical and we're going to get good shots. We're going
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: to get better shots than you are. And then we're
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: going to defend your good shots. And that's, you know,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: I'm looking here. They, they are number two nationally in
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: two point field goal percentage defense because they're huge. and
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: relentless inside, and then they get good shots on offense,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: and they make them, and they pound it in. Koa
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Peet is a 6'8, 235 guy who, you know, unfortunately
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: for him, I think he's going to get drafted, you know,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: top 10, top 15, and he's going to go to
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: the NBA, and they're just going to say, spend the
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: next year just shooting threes so that you can learn
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: how to be a wing, because that's what you're, you're
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: two inches too short to be a big man in
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: our league, but in college, oh my gosh, he is
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: a Power inside. Mo Cravis, the seven-footer, is a power inside.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: And then Braden Burries, it's funny to me, the guard
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: from California, who's their most talented player, and he's a
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: top-ten pick, I would say. He has, like, the face
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: of a child actor. He looks, you know, this nice
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: little endearing, you know, maybe potentially soft guy. And then
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: you watch him play. It's like, oh, no, no, no.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Don't let looks deceive you. That guy is a killer.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, he makes tough shots. He'll play physical, and
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: I think he'll be maybe the key to their final
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: four here because somebody's got to make some tough shots,
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: and he's capable of it.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you this.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Coming up next, we're going to talk about another thing
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: that's going on with Arizona, but it doesn't involve their
• 25:18
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  Speaker 1: That's BetterHelp.com slash Bomani. All right, we are back with
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Pat Forty, SI.com, talking some college basketball. And Arizona's in
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: the Final Four. Tommy Lloyd is their head coach. And
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: all the clips I see of the questions he's being
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: asked are about the North Carolina job, a job that
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: he will not come out and say that he's going to.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: He does not want.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Just throwing this out there he is not hey you
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: know it's just hey because you know i got a
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: good team here can we talk about something else please.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah i was in uh San Jose last week when
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: he was asked about it. And, you know, look, those
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: of us who have been around a long time, we're
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: finally attuned to the coach speak in these situations. And
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: there's one of two ways you can go. You just
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: stomp it out and say, I have no interest. Or
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: you mouth a bunch of platitudes and say how focused
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: you are on right here and right now. But you
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: avoid saying, I have no interest. And that means, guess what?
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: There's maybe some interest. Or at the very least, there's
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: interest in playing the leverage game. Yeah. Arizona.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: Do these guys still have to lie anymore?
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: And I ask that question because you were you were
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: no longer asking players to come because you were going
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: to guide them through life. You're paying them now. Like,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: I know you can't just flat out say, hey, man,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about that other job as soon
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: as I can. But it feels like the paradigm hasn't
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: adjusted or that rhetoric hasn't adjusted to the reality. that
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: everybody's playing on a one-year contract now. Like, I don't
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: think you have to put yourself through, like, we'll talk
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: about another guy in a second and we'll wait, but
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't think you have to play this
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: game anymore.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: No, that's a good point. You really probably don't. It's
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: certainly to the extent that it gets played. Um, you know,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: I think that was purely like, I don't want my
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: fan base melting down right now in the sweet 16.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Just get me out of here. Get me off of
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: this podium as fast as you can. Uh, But you're right,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: in terms of the actual brass tacks of it, there's
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: less of that, oh, I've got to keep my recruiting
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: class together or any of that sort of thing. That's
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: almost immaterial now.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, though, this also touches on something that
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: I'm curious your thoughts about this because I feel like
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: cyclically with any big job in college football or basketball,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: something comes up and a program is in down times
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: or something like that, and the argument is made in
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: response that, You know, this isn't the old days.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: You know, USC is never going to be what USC
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: used to be.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: Then they hire Pete Carroll. And what do you know?
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: Alabama is never going to be what it was.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: And then you hire Nick Saban and then it goes.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: It feels like right now is North Carolina's time. And
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: we can go back through the last however many years
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: there hasn't been.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: The program has produced an all star in nearly 30 years.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: Vince Carter's the last all star. that they had produced.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: But they've also been wildly successful in that time. And
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: I am of the belief that just because the money
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: game is what it is and all these things have changed,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: that's still North Carolina and that's still a job that
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: most coaches would love to have. And I feel like
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: the fact that Tommy Lloyd is over there tap dancing
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: when he has one of those jobs that most coaches
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: would love to have is an indicator that this is
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: still North Carolina.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Without question. I think there's still a large number of
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: great coaches who look at this and say, that's the
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: best job you can have in college basketball. It's another thing,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: you know, like Indiana, like we were just talking about, well,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: you get the right guy. North Carolina is so much
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: closer to always being that team, even than Indiana. You know,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: that program where just line them up and it's going
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: to work. You know, get a coach who's a good
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: coach and you're going to get good players, great players.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: As you said, I don't care whether you're an NBA All-Star.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Tyler Hansborough, who cares whether he's an NBA All-Star? Joel Berry,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: et cetera. I mean, you know, they get great players
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: who do great things at North Carolina. That can certainly
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: still be the case and will be the case, I think.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: You know, if this thing plays out the way it
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: looks like it might, they're going to have a great
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: coach and they're going to win a national title again
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: sometime in the next five to ten years.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but the concern, though, is obviously they seem to
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: have a chaotic infrastructure situation and.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: A resource drain named Belichick.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Like, I think the part of the Belichick hire that
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: we didn't really do the math on is there's only
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: so much money, and they ponied up a lot of
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: money to do the things that he wanted to do
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: for that football program, and it ain't working.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: And I think the biggest part of why.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: That's making people mad and people– These basketball programs, it's interesting.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Football pays so much of everything else, but the tail
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: will never wag the dog in Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: And the dog is basketball.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: The dog is basketball, and they've got to figure it out,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't... There was a level of alignment that
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: they used to seem to have up top for a
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: very long time that does not seem to be there now.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, that's a great point, that there is,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: you know... Seemingly a battle for the soul of Carolina
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: athletics going on on a number of fronts. And one
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: of them, yes, is who's in charge? Who's who do
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: the money people want to be in charge? What do
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: we want to be? And it feels like, you know,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: just the group thing that happens in college sports amazes me.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: But like Carolina seemed to like listen to the outside
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: people saying, well, football is all that matters. Football is
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: all that matters. We got to go take a home
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: run swing. Let's go get Bill Belichick. Wait a minute.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Does this make any sense? And then we're going to
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: pay him a gazillion dollars and there's a gazillion dollar
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: support staff and everything else. And then it flops as
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: badly as it did in year one. I mean, it's
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: one of those things where. I think especially if you
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: go get the right basketball coach here in a couple
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: of weeks or however much time it may take, you
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: come back and you say, let's get back to who
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: we are. Let's give Bill one more year. And after that,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: we are diverting funds back to where the dog is,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: not where the tail is.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because, hey, look, that's one thing people don't get also.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Boosters make decisions by doing that. When a booster decides
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: that they're tired of a coach, we saw this happen.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Charlie Strong could speak to it from his time at Texas.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Konzo Martin could speak to it from his time at Tennessee.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: All of a sudden, wait a minute, what do you
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: mean I can't use the plane? to go recruit what
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: are you talking about like little things start getting dialed
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: back when it's like yeah we're gonna get you out
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: of here this like we may not be able to
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: afford to buy out right now but we don't have
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: to put up with this because I feel like and
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know your spin on this I don't think
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: they made a bad hire with Hubert. I think it
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: turned out to be a different job than Hubert thought
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: he was taking. But, I mean, he was clearly being
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: groomed for that job. They went to a Final Four,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: and they had.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: Some good teams.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Like, it's not– this is– I didn't think– they fired
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: him because they wanted to. I didn't think that they
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: had to fire him, though morale had definitely fallen among
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: the fans and everything else.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: But they fumbled the fire.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: And the one part that would worry me if I
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: was somebody that was taking that job is any place
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: where they fumbled the fire that bad.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Sure, and that tells you, yeah, there's too many cooks,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: too many disagreeing cooks in the kitchen, right? And it
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: does seem weird, like, nobody, I didn't think there was
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: much smoke about Hubert getting fired at all until they
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: blow the game against VCU. And then all of a sudden,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: there seemed to be some emotional decisions being made. Like
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: you're hearing, oh, the money's no longer there. Well, what
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: did it take? Like eight hours for the money?
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Get rid of him.
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: Get rid of him.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: We just blew this game. I was like, holy moly.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Now, yeah, look, I thought he was a perfectly fine hire.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: He had some incredibly high moments there. Obviously, the two
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: flag plants against Duke. but the next year they're number
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: one seed. They win the ACC. I mean, it's not
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: like Hubert Davis was Matt Doherty, right? And even Matt
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Doherty's first year wasn't terrible, which is another reason why
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: that job is so good. You know, I look at
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: that and think that, yes, that there was a lot
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: of emotional reactions to Hubert Davis, but I would not say, gosh, Hubert,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: you did a terrible job by any stretch. No, no.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: It's, well... It seems very clear.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: The name that we're hearing the most is Billy Donovan
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: around that job. And it looks like enough chaos in
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Chicago that it looks like Billy Donovan will be available.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: And I don't think anybody else would hire Billy Donovan
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: to coach their NBA team at this point.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: And I think that he was a.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Replacement level NBA coach.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: I don't mean he wasn't bad. He wasn't good.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: But if he still wants to coach and the North
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Carolina is there and if they want him, I reckon
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: he's there on the first thing smoking. My question is,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: a guy that hasn't coached in college in 11 years,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: what is the adjustment? Though I guess if college is
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: more like pro, he's done that.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he'll figure it out. I don't think it would
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: be a problem for him, and I think he would
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: be a great hire, as would Tommy Lloyd, I think, too.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: But Billy, you know, I heard back when he was
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: at Florida and when he was in the NBA, the
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: only other job that would interest him, that would kind
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: of light the candle in his eyes would be Carolina
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: because he realized what kind of job that is. He
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: is a great coach. I think he would walk in
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: and immediately be at the very top as an X
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: and O coach. And yeah, you can figure out the
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: rest of it. And as you said, if it's more
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: of an NBA, you know, a professional style roster building everything, well,
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: what's he been doing for the last 12 years? He's
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: been doing that. So I don't think this is the
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: kind of thing where he would be– blindsided, overmatched, getting
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: the wrong guys, thinking like Bill Belichick, I can get
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Mac players and turn them into ACC players. You know,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: I think he would have a very good grasp on
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: what to do. The learning curve would be short, and
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: then Carolina would do extremely well with Billy Donovan.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: And I think that important, if I were in charge
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: of that search— College basketball, winning is not enough. Different
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: places want to win different ways, right? So we all
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: remember the infamous Herbst Sendak era at North Carolina State.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: And no matter how good a coach you thought Herb was,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: they didn't like the way that he played basketball. It
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: was only happy when they won, but running that slowdown,
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Princeton stuff that he was doing, it made them miserable
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: when they didn't. And that's why ultimately he left. They
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: didn't fire him, but they didn't, nobody was that sad.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: When he got out of there, I was there for
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: his last ACC tournament. Nobody was sad when he left,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: but they didn't like the way he played that kind
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: of grinded out ball that Lloyd is playing.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: They're not going to like that there.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: I think Donovan with a more guard centered off, you know,
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: type of play that he was known for when he
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: was coaching in college, that's the one for them. And
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: it's enough to feed their egos and make them feel like, yep,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: we're still the program that can get you Billy Donovan,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: which again, very important jobs like these.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: No doubt. I mean, How many schools have tried to
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: hire Billy Donovan in the last 20 years? I mean,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Kentucky tried multiple times. Couldn't get him. I mean, big-time
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: schools wanted Billy Donovan for a good reason. He went
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: to four Final Fours. He won two national championships in
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: a row. He knows how to recruit. He knows how
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: to put together a team. He knows how to coach
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: a team. I see no weaknesses there other than, yeah, okay,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: I've been gone for 12 years. He'll figure it out.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: He'll be fine.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: There's one thing, though, that has to be resolved that
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: only guys like you and I would probably remember, which
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: is way back in 1997 or 1998, when Mike Miller
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: was a recruit, Roy Williams and Billy Donovan got into
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: a real nasty thing about who said what and who
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: did what.
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: And I imagine that Billy Donovan has let that go.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: I promise you that Roy Williams has not. That's not
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: how he operates.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, look, this is going to be an
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: adjustment for Roy no matter what. First of all, there's
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: not some new Dean guy, you know, to take over.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: So he's going outside. But then if you go outside
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: to Billy, yeah. Most of you guys can have a
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: nice closed-door chat about Brett Barrett and a few other
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: things and then move on. And then get behind him, Roy.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's going to have to happen, and I
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: wish I could be there for it.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Oh. It was bitter between those two for a while.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: I miss my days of paying attention to this stuff
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: every day, all the time.
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: Because every now and then, something comes up, and I'm like,
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: that's right. That thing did happen. Staying in that area, you....
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll go to Will Wade before we get back
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: over there to Shire. We talked a little bit about
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: the Will Wade situation here. It is one of the
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: more amazing things to happen in college sports where apparently
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: everybody knew Will Wade was just itching to get back
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: to LSU.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: The block had finally calmed down enough.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: I compared it to Alex Cora in baseball where the
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Red Sox had to fire him because of the Astros
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: cheating thing, and then they waited until nobody cared anymore,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: and they brought him back. And that's basically what happened
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: here with Will Wade, except speaking of people who didn't
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: have to lie, He just lied and lied and lied
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: and lied and lied. And now he's going to go
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: to LSU where he never got out of the round
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: of 32.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: That's it. You know, like honest to God, like LSU
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: has just willfully said, we have no shame and we'll
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: go ahead and be a laughingstock because we've got to
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: have a guy who can take us to the second
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: round of the tournament. Really? Is that what we're talking
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: about here? Like that's like people seem to confuse him
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: with John Wooden. and Mike Krzyzewski and Roy Williams quite
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: often in terms of like, he's the greatest coach ever. No, man,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: he's a good coach who's a renegade red ass, which
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: is what we kind of like at LSU. We put
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: him together with Lane Kiffin, and we bring in Rick
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Stansberry on his staff among other people.
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: It's like shame has left the building in Baton Rouge.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: It's a whole new deal.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: They brought back Johnny Jones, too.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Brought back Johnny Jones, yeah.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: The LSU basketball program is so interesting because no program
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: in history has done less with the best top line
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: of players in the history of programs.
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: Nobody's beaten LSU.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Robert E.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: Lee Pettit, Pistol Pete, Shaq, Chris Jackson. Yeah, like.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: and didn't win a damn thing with any of those guys.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: But if you gave Dale Brown, John Hotplate Williams, and
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: a random smattering of dudes, somehow we will make the
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Final Four.
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: You gave John.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: Brady quite possibly the worst coach ever to make a
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Final Four, but you gave him Glenn Davis and Tyrus
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Thomas and Garrett Temple and beat Coach K all the
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: way to a Final Four. Like they, nothing about their
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: program historically has made a great deal of sense, but
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: they're always entertaining, right? And it's always like something to watch.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: And then you'll, you know, what was the Bob Knight line?
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: I didn't, you know, I thought we were in trouble
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: until I looked over there and saw Dale Brown and
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: I knew everything was going to be okay.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: That's right. That's right. 80, I think it was 87 tournament.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: He said that.
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, No, it is like that place is just
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: a freaking hot mess. And especially with basketball, like football
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: is too important to just kind of song and a
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: prayer at basketball. They're like, hey, we'll just take the
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: mess and see how it works out. Like you said,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: they have had, if you put together, if you had
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: an all-time starting five of LSU guys versus other teams,
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: it's right there. I mean, you named them off. I mean,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: all-time great players who never went anywhere.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: They might have the four best players in the history
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: of the Southeastern Conference.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: Like the literal four.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I mean, people forget how good Chris Jackson was.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Chris Jackson played with Shaquille O'Neal on the same team.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: And I saw him go into Rupp Arena and lose
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: to a team that had seven scholarship players and was
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: playing Richie Farmer. I was like, what on earth? Not possible.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: With Stanley Roberts, who we joke about for being fat,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: but was a really good basketball player.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, yeah. God love Dale. Dale was entertaining
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: and he's still with us. Yes. But he underachieved a
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: few times.
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: And a good man, right?
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: He's on the Guy V.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Lewis list of good men who could get good players
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: to coach them badly. Right. Like Gavi, Gavi got off
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: in history that the NC State story was so inspiring
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: to people to ignore the fact.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: Blew it. Flat out. Blew it.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: The loss to NC State, that championship game is absolute malpractice.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's I did something on the greatest buzzer
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: beaters this week. And you go back and watch and
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: watch the last minute of that game. There was no
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: shot clock. And they've got all those athletes out there,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: and they're just standing there in a zone like this
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: for a minute, letting Sidney Lowe and Derek Wittenberg pass
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: the ball back and forth, Terry Gannon. And that's what
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: basically the whole game was. It was 52 to 52.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: It should have been 80 to 65.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: Right, with Akeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: And Larry Bichon.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: Anyway, we can move.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: NC State, by the way, shout out to them. Recovered quickly.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Made what seems to be a pretty good hire. Did
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: not embarrass themselves, which is always on the board over there. So, like,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: way to go. Now, I want to wrap this up
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: with Duke because I, counterintuitive though this may seem, it's
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: a bit of a defense. I don't know if defense
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: is the right word, but I am surprised at the
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: level of criticism the Shire has received.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: Coming off of this.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: Now, there have been some embarrassing losses in the ways
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: the games have been lost, but to me, it's like, Like,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: are people new here? This is kind of how it
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: goes for all coaches, even if it's not at the beginning, right?
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: There's stretches.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Like, I remind people, Dean Smith did not make a
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Final Four from 82 through 91. Roy Williams did not
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: make a Final Four after 93 and before 2002.
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: Like, these things happen.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Shire's a little ahead of the game, I would argue,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: for where he is to.
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: Start this off, while also acknowledging.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: The last couple of years have ended in what they
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: call an ignominious sort of fashion.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Ignominious is the word for it. It really is. I mean,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: the problem, yeah, like you got number one seed. Last year,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: getting to the final four as a number one seed,
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: that's fine. But the way you blew the game against
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Houston with Cooper Flag, ugly. And then the way you
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: blew this game with Cam Boozer, very ugly. and just
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: the way things kind of unraveled, and even kind of
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: gradually at the time. And then really, if you want
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: to go back the year before, when you lose to
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: NC State and that Fluke Miracle team, ugly. So three
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: straight really ugly elimination games. But to be number one
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: seed a couple years in a row is great, and
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: win 70 games is impressive. Nobody should be saying John
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: Shire can't do it. They should just be saying John
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Shire has a major problem at key points of the
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: NCAA tournament, he'll get past it, right? He's 38 years old,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: as you pointed out. There's been plenty of coaches that
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: have had very bad tournament losses. It's nice when your
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: bad losses happen at the final four and lead eight
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: stage as opposed to the first round. That's a good thing.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: So I think he will move on from it. He'll
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: get better handling these things. And eventually he's going to
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: win a title. But you know, the way they have
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: lost has been ghastly. Yeah.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: I think ghastly is the way to put it. And look,
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: I've enjoyed how it's gone personally. It's worked out very
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: well for me, but no, no, no, no, no. This
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: is something would drastically have to change for me to
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: not look at Shire and be like.
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: No, this is good.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Look, I don't think that's a job that's guaranteed to
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: be great forever. They don't like, they have a brand
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: that's been built over time, but they don't have like
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: the super built in advantages either.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: No, I agree. I mean, look, in, in our lifetime,
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: what Krzyzewski built, it looks like immovable, but over time,
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: as you said, things can change. And that is not,
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: that's one of those places where I think it's a
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: little less kind of secure, like in terms of like
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: in perpetuity is Duke going to be good for 50 years? Probably,
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: but not certainly. I don't think, um, And so, you know,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: if anybody's sitting out there saying Shire's got to go,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: be careful because who the heck's coming in next who's
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: going to win 70 games in two years?
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: 70 games in two years.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: It's like 70 and 7, I think, is what it's
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: been in the last two years with like two or
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: three ACC losses.
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: Like, guys, come on.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Totally dominated that league.
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: And, you know, still a good league. I'm sorry. Yeah, man.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: That is Pat Forty. Check him out.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: SI.com, covering college sports. My man, I appreciate you.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Bo.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: All right, ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: us here on The Right Time. We do this four
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: times a week. Brian Brumley handles everything behind the scenes.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: Thank you, sir.
• 50:58
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• 51:10
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• 51:11
  Speaker 3: Take it easy.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Thank you.