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Is your therapist cringe? · Brilliant Minds?

• Andrea: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Brilliant Minds, the podcast of two therapists. as I always like to say, we're chaos, but we are professionals. We're just not your professional. and this is my co-host and my best friend. ⁓ Olivia: This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. Olivia da da da da da. ⁓ Andrea: If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org. Hello. we're off to the running today. And we are gonna talk about things in the therapy world that ⁓ give us icks or make us cringe. Olivia: Yeah, I ha I have like a few already ready because I I've been mulling over this over the last couple weeks and just like thinking about things that just like I don't know make me go like roll my ⁓ or you know whatever. So my one that I thought of, and this actually kinda goes back to grad school, maybe not just therapy itself. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. You know how much I love talking about grad school, so Olivia: Role plays. Andrea: Just like, okay, okay, role plays in the teaching aspect of therapy, role plays as a therapist with your client, or both. Olivia: Both. Both. Now full disclosure here, I don't think I've ever done a role play with a client in session before. Andrea: I'm trying to think back to see if I have I I think maybe as a joke. Olivia: Yeah, that's the closest I think I've gotten. But I I'm talking about like so that's a thing. I've never done it, so it's hard for me to be like, Yes, if you're doing it with clients like actual full blown roleplays, cringe. But I'm specifically talking about in grad school when you have to do roleplays like with your cohort. You're like your classmates. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I have some really vivid memories of role plays in grad school. Like vivid. Olivia: ⁓ my Yeah, me too. And I mean like the idea of them isn't bad per se, but they're so awkward and uncomfortable. And you're all in the work together. So you never are going to be like a difficult client. Like it's all going to line up perfectly and be great. So it's like, what's the point? You know? Andrea: No. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm curious. Yeah. In your experience, was roleplay like in grad school for you? Because I'm I'm curious. Olivia: We didn't have role play role plays in grad school. I had role plays in my bachelors. Andrea: ⁓ interesting. Okay. I mean, I did too, but I had it throughout the whole thing. Okay. So this might make you really cringe then. So in my grad school, at the beginning we had because I went to a hybrid program. So it was online and in person, kind of a mix. for the whole beginning, it was all online for the most part. And I would have to like find a friend and record myself doing a role play with a friend. Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: It was, and it was like they didn't give us it started with only like five minutes and then it got to like 10 and 15. So it wasn't like full hours. It was just like really short because I had to demonstrate the specific therapeutic skills, like reframe, paraphrase, listening, like all those silly things. and like your friend could bring like a real issue to you, or they could make something up. Most of the time it was a real issue. But that was the first part. And then when we moved into in person, it got Olivia: How long? Andrea: Real weird because we had to do role plays in front of the entire cohort. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. Andrea: It was rough. And like they would give the like person doing the role play, the student, the student being the client, like a prompt to pretend to be that. And because I was in marriage and family, I would have like people role playing children who were full blown adults. And I would have people role playing like couples. And like, and the teacher would just sit in the back and like write notes and then hand you their evaluation after you were done. Or if you were doing really bad, they would call you out in front of everyone and correct you. Olivia: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Andrea: I never got called out because I'm just good, you guys. But remember other people getting called out and like the teacher asking us, like in the audience for recommendations. And yeah. Olivia: Like what would you do? Ugh. ⁓ rough. Andrea: Yeah. And we did that for like a full week at a time. Like Olivia: Yeah, so yeah, I didn't have to do role plays. In in my grad program I did have to do like a ten minute video every week on like talking about my practicum and stuff. And then like upload it and watch other people's. And that was extremely cringy. yeah, every once in a while my computer will be like, ⁓ this was, you know, like God, ten years ago. and ⁓ be like some video. I'm like, ⁓ my Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Olivia: Don't like that that's saved somewhere in the like recesses of yeah, don't like that. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Did you have to ever transcribe anything? Olivia: I did I did for a sociology like a sociology class in my bachelor's we had this like a really odd assignment and we'd have to like do transcription and it was ⁓ to say the least. But not not for s not for social work. ⁓ the group the role play I did in my bachelors was we did ⁓ it was like a group so did classes that were like individuals ⁓ Andrea: Interesting. Yeah. ⁓ Olivia: groups and then I forget I don't know. Anyways, it was like the group one. so we had this whole project where we had to design like a a curriculum for, you know, six ⁓ like and whatever. And we had to pick our client demographic and make it evidence based and all this stuff. Well part of the project was like taking one of those groups that you planned and then like doing it like role playing it Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Olivia: in your class and then all of your classmates were had to pretend they were that like client demographic for that group. and I always hated them because everyone just kinda like played it super easy. And so I was a bitch. and also people were dumb and they kept choosing to do groups with like teens. ⁓ Andrea: Oof. What? Olivia: Yeah, like a lot of them were doing like groups for kids or teens or whatever, because like that that's the kind of like I don't know, demographic they wanted to work with. So they like made a whole like six week group or whatever. And so then like everyone's just like doing these like art activities or whatever, completely quiet or like totally going along with it. And I'm like, if you're a teenager, you don't want to do this. And so like I'm act yeah, yeah. So I'm like acting out because ⁓ Andrea: ⁓ Woof. No, you're gonna be a bitch. Olivia: That's that's a roleplay. Like I'm not try I wasn't trying to like and they would like laugh cause like you know it's really like it's uncomfortable so people laugh. Right. Right, we're right. But like it's uncomfortable and so people laugh and they're uncomfortable and like that's totally normal, whatever. And ⁓ yeah. And then when it got to me, thought it was so funny. I thought I picked a little bit more of a like Andrea: Yeah. 'Cause it's you, it's not yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Easier group to do because I was like, I'm gonna learn from y'all, and I'm not doing one for younger people because I'm like, you you're gonna screw with me like I've screwed with you, right? But I got mine because I did it for like I think it was like older adults, I can't remember exactly, but it was like older adults, and so they were like all super grumpy and kept asking me to repeat myself and like saying that they didn't understand, and like so I still got mine. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: But Andrea: It's really funny. I would have so much fun playing an old person. Like that What? What? Can you say that again? Olivia: Right. Yeah, like I had so much fun playing a teenager and everyone was like laughing because they were like just going along with it 'cause like everyone's like j let's just get through this. Like we all have to do this, like, ⁓ my god, like let it be over. But also keep in mind, my cohort was like there was like twenty seven or eight of us. So like it really wasn't that it wasn't that big of a class. Andrea: ⁓ my god. Yeah. Yeah. I Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mine was smaller than that, so Olivia: Well, the class itself that did the role play in it was less than that, but like my cohort overall was like was like about that big. Andrea: Hmm. Overall, that makes sense. Yeah. I would be super curious to know like how therapists actually do role plays in sessions. Like as a skill or like as a therapeutic tool. Olivia: Yeah, if they Yeah, I it's so it feels so foreign to me that I w I can't even picture using ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. No. No, I mean like sometimes I think I propose it to my clients and then they're like, Nope, I'm just gonna go do it the thing. think it's like a weird, like, I don't know, scare tactic. Yeah, like Olivia: Reverse psychology scare scare tactic. I didn't know we had those in therapy. I've been using it wrong. ⁓ Well, you could stop avoiding it, or we could do a roleplay. so funny. Andrea: Where are just like let's do let's do a role play. You might be You know what, I th I actually think that that's happened to me because I think I've proposed it as like, well, we could roleplay like this conversation or whatever. And then they're like, nah. Which like I feel that in my bones. If my therapist came to me and was like, let's do a role play, I'd be like, Olivia: Yeah. I'd be like that meme of like s ⁓ Bart Simpson like full like getting back into the foliage. Just like Yeah, just like Andrea: Ha ha ha Eat on the grass. ⁓ that's such a good one. Like I can feel the cringe in my body for that. Like, And I remember like the students that didn't do well in front of everyone and just like feeling despair for them and just being like, Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, that's brutal. Yeah, yours definitely sounds worse than mine, for sure. My gosh. Andrea: Yeah. It was it was wild because it was like the one on one role plays that we had to do were in a hotel room in like a new state because we had to go like for the in-person part, we had to travel to go wherever this was. And so it was like the first one I did was in Puerto Rico. It was so wild. And like we would be in a hotel room all day. Like the hotel would like move the beds to the side and we just like be in a hotel room with like eight people and do role plays in front of everybody the whole time. Olivia: That just got so much weirder. You were in a ho ⁓ hotel room, not even like a like a meeting room at a hotel, because they do have those. Just a room. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. They didn't have enough of them. They didn't have enough of them. So they the meeting rooms were for the bigger cohorts and then the rooms were for the smaller cohorts. So for our program. And then would like it was like the suites. So our school would basically rent out the whole hotel. And we would like do big classes in the meeting rooms and then do lunch. And then we would break off into our small groups or like eight, seven person groups. And that's where we would do all of our role plays. And we did role plays every single day in these like hotel rooms with a bunch of people. Olivia: And it w was in different locations every time? Andrea: Yeah, so my first one was in Puerto Rico and my second one was in Atlanta. Olivia: Obviously the the next destination. I I was gonna guess that. I don't even know why you said that. Of course I knew. Andrea: Yeah. And now now they only they only do them either online. My program only does them online or in Minneapolis, which w which is where the school is based. Olivia: That is so bizarre. What? That's so weird. How did I not know that? That's so bizarre. Okay. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the experience overall was amazing because I got to meet all my cohort like in person and it was so cool. Like made really awesome friends during that time because we like we're all staying in the same hotel. We didn't want to go out to dinner ourselves. Like it was so fun. But the role play piece was we like were sh like every time it would just be like dread. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, that's so uncomfortable. I I so this might get us ⁓ don't know, banned or something? ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Mm. What are you gonna say? Olivia: But the fact that it was in a hotel room and like everything was pushed to the side, it it reminds me of the like what? Do you know what I'm gonna say? ⁓ no. Okay. It reminds me of the like hotel ⁓ like cuck chair. Andrea: I don't know No Olivia: Mm-hmm. Andrea: I don't even have to bleep that out. Hopefully the new update has a bleep feature. It definitely gives Yeah. Olivia: Viewership. That's yes. Viewership is I think the most diplomatic word I can give today. Andrea: ⁓ no. Yeah. Olivia: Sorry, I I okay. something else that I also think is really cringe ⁓ when say therapy is a journey. ⁓ Andrea: Moving on. yeah. That was when I was thinking about this topic, that was like top of my list, actually. Olivia: Yeah. Journey. Journey. It's just a journey. It's a process. It's a like what? Andrea: Journey. Now this one might be a hot take, but like adding healing to that. Olivia: Unless I am Ooh yeah, mm-hmm. Yes. Absolutely. Healing. Healing what? There's nothing inherently wrong with you. Andrea: Sorry guys. I don't like it. I know. Olivia: Yeah. La. Andrea: We don't have to fix anything. And also like, what is the purpose behind saying journey? Olivia: Yeah. tend not have to use the word therapy, I guess, to make it, I don't know. More like casual language? I don't know. Andrea: It doesn't even feel casual. It feels Olivia: Disingenuous. Overused. Andrea: Hippy dippy. Definitely overused. Definitely overused. I mean if you scroll through therapy bios, it's like journey, journey, journey, journey, journey. Yeah, people know why they're coming to fucking therapy. Olivia: Stupid. Anybody's bio. It's still voluntary folks, you know? Like it's it's alright. Yeah. Andrea: Like I think that's the thing that bothers me the most about bios that say that or like therapists that say that is like people are coming to therapy for support. Like, why are you asking them to come along the journey or telling them that you're gonna go along like what? Like I Olivia: I yeah, this isn't like we're not creating a fellowship, right? Like I'm not Frodo and I don't need to go on a journey to like destroy the ring. Like I really it's okay. Andrea: You know what though? You know what though? If a therapist had that statement in a bio, you bet your ass I'm booking. Olivia: That's what we're doing wrong! need to be we should have more nerdy quotes in our bios. Andrea: I know. I did, I do have an associate who says something about like loving tabletop games in their bio. And they have had more than a handful of clients like reach out to them to be like, hey, I like that you said you like tabletop games. And I'm a nerd like that too. So I want to like have a consult with you. And I was like, yeah. Personality, yo. Olivia: Yeah, like on our website we have like our guilty pleasure and like our favorite food and like a hobby or interest. I can't remember. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We've g yeah, what it Yeah, or like something you might not know about me type thing. Like it's like three fun facts, which I love. I love that we did that. Adds some flair. Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Like it really doesn't have to be like in your bio bio, but like it can still be there. You can still have a personality. I think like to broaden it beyond just journey and healing, therapists that don't have like a personality or like don't swear or don't emote or like don't vary the tone in their voice or like don't get into it or you talk with their hand like can't. No. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Now dis disclaimer, these are our cringes. If you like a therapist that's like that and you like a blank slate, go for it. We ain't blank slates, clearly. Olivia: Mm mm. Boring. I'm gonna fall asleep. Yeah. don't think that's ⁓ been associated with my personality ever. Andrea: Is No. 'Cause that was one that was on my list, which is kind of similar to this is the blank list the blank blank slate therapist. Like that whole idea just like it Olivia: Hm. I mean just could be the types of people that we are more drawn to, but I can't think of a single c colleague or therapist that I know that is a blank slate therapist. Andrea: People who I consider colleagues, no. People who I've met that are therapists that are blank slate, I have met them. Olivia: Mm. right, you ⁓ now. Andrea: But again, I take pictures of therapists and that I see it all. I see it all, folks. Olivia: things I think is like very cringy is when anyone is so into ⁓ approach to therapy that they apply it to everything. Even it has no business being applied to everything. Like ⁓ you do art therapy for ADHD. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: You know what I mean? Like maybe you may maybe you could, right? Like maybe you could figure out somehow how to apply art therapy to somebody understanding their ADHD. But Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. But exclusive exclusively like if you're using art therapy to teach someone like executive functioning skills, question marks. I don't think that works. Olivia: Right. Right. Andrea: But like doing art while you're talking about ADHD? Great. But is that considered art therapy? Olivia: Yeah, I don't know. But just like just generally or like someone who's maybe like more psychodynamic, it's like they approach everything in that lens and it's like, well, ⁓ my god, like not everything can be approached from the same angle. Like, please, like, stop. Stop. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's and maybe this is the neurodivergence in us, but I it people who are one dimensional in that, like the theory based people, like that I'm oddly curious about it because I could never sit there and refocus everything to one lens. Like that is so hard for me to imagine even trying to do. Olivia: Yeah. No I it just 'cause it sounds boring. Well it sounds boring and ultimately like ineffective, I think is the biggest thing. Like it's boring and it sounds ineffective. Maybe not for everyone, right? But like eventually it's like, Yeah, art therapy isn't gonna work for this thing or like somatic therapy isn't gonna work for your partner that sucks. Andrea: I know but all Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. ⁓ it does. You just have to sit back, breathe, stretch, ⁓ it and you're ⁓ Olivia: You know, I mean Feel it in your body. Let it go. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: Yeah. I think just like again being dimensional like makes the most sense and like not being dimensional feels Olivia: Yeah. Which leads me to hot I know a lot of people use it. I know you even use it. But I will never ⁓ say do you feel that in your body? I will never will never say that. That is so cringy me. I'm like, ⁓ no. That's that's no for me. Immediate no. ⁓ Andrea: Dick. ⁓ Hm. I do know this about you. ⁓ Olivia: Nobody's gonna hear me say that. And not even like say it ironically, 'cause I d I don't I don't like to say things ironically. Andrea: Yeah. No, no one No, no one will ever hear Olivia say that. I will say that. Don't say it like that. I say it a little bit better. Like Olivia: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I I delivered it that way on purpose, but yeah, I'm I'm sure it's asked a little bit differently. ⁓ also, again, ⁓ of adding on to this, like not so myopic or like so laser focused on one approach. I don't think that you're asking that question of every single client all the time. Right? Right? Exactly. Like you're only asking it in maybe some instances with some clients. Andrea: right, right. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, no. No. Where it's necessary. Yeah. Olivia: Because it works well. Yeah, when it's necessary, but like when it works well for a client, but you know you know your clients well enough to know the ones that it won't work well with, right? So it's like Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. For the most part, it's also like it's I'm watching the client and if I'm noticing like them like do something, then I'm gonna be like, What's happening there? Like, why are you rubbing your arm? And that's like how I ask that question. So it's like Olivia: Yeah, but see that's that's not where do you feel that in your body. I I'm asking like verbatim, those words. Never would say that. No. Andrea: Right. It's yeah. Yeah, no. I will also I mean, I don't think most I will actually, correction. I hope most therapists don't say this, but it's the how does that make you feel? Nope. that out of your syntax. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: Nope. That's the same it's like essentially the same type of thing where it's like, let's get away from some of those like phrases. My grad program actually grilled into us to never say, How does that make you feel? Olivia: One of the things that my program ⁓ my bachelor's program specifically like grinded into my soul and I'm really glad they did. I'm really, really glad they did. ⁓ never say it's going to be okay. Andrea: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, I heard that one too. Olivia: And I was like, Yeah, because you have no freaking clue if it's gonna be okay. So why would you Andrea: Right. Olivia: they were just like, never it's gonna be okay, never say it's gonna get better. Like none it. You can have hope that it will. You could believe that it will, but you will never say that. Like it's like that ⁓ is such a false hope thing and blah blah blah blah. ⁓ Anyways, and really, really appreciate that. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. No. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Right. Even Yeah, and even if I heard that from a therapist, I'd be like, fuck off. Like For r like, that doesn't feel good to hear. That's not what I wanna hear. I act this might just be me, but I actually just wanna hear that life's gonna be shitty. Like Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: Sit in it with me. That's what I want. Like, I don't want you to tell me it's gonna get better because like maybe it won't. Olivia: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of like goes along with that. This is a I feel like a very very hard thing to balance because when I think about it, I think about myself and I feel like I'm always negotiating with this idea even now. I think and and I think I always will. But generally speaking, if we're like super generalizing or stereotyping, I would say it's very cringe when Andrea: It's a good one. Mm. Olivia: you try to jump in and solve something too fast. Or you like try to give input or like feedback on something too quickly, or like you don't ask enough questions. Or you're like or like therapist to kind of like just jump in too quickly and like try to solve things or like they don't sit with you in an emotion or whatever. Like like I said, I bring this up because it's a really hard balance to strike, I think, when you're working with clients, and I think I'll always be working on this skill. But Andrea: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: I I can give myself the ick sometimes, every once in a while when I like step too far and I see that I've stepped too far and I'm like, ugh I did it. Like damn it. Okay, I need to like back. I'm missing the point. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Some Sometimes I will call myself out in front of a client for that. Like I'll just be like, whoa, I that sounded cringe as hell. And Olivia: Mm. Andrea: Or like I'll even preface it sometimes. Like if I feel myself saying something that like I can't find the other words for, but like I'm only gonna s I just have to say it, I will be like, Okay, this is gonna sound so cringy, but like I think at one point during this week, I think I said, That sound this is gonna sound cheesy, but sounds like your relationship is electric. And like Olivia: Mm. Andrea: like ⁓ yikes Andrea but it worked like me being able to say like this is gonna sound cringy but here I can't find the other words for this like actually landed really well for them. So it's like I could call myself out. Like I know I'm being cringy. But you're right. Like I'm always gonna be working on that for sure. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, there's so much nuance in that. Yeah, I usually this is my caveat that I like have gotten into the habit of using is I'll be like, I could be wrong. please let me know if I am 'cause I've been wrong multiple times today already. And then I'll be like, you know, whatever. ⁓ but yeah, there have been plenty of times that I'll be like, Ooh, okay, thank you for correcting me. Like, yeah, like you're right. Or like, ooh, yeah, I goof that totally, like Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Totally. Yeah. Olivia: Or like I appreciate you saying that, like that that perspective makes more sense to me or, you know, whatever. ⁓ so that's the yeah, that's how I own it. But it's it's can be tough sometimes, for sure. Andrea: Yeah. And yeah. Totally. And maybe this is something that we can talk about in another episode is like it's also a red flag if your therapist can't accept being wrong. And like I think that's different than being cringe, and maybe we can talk about like red flags of a therapist at some point. But like that's that's just what I want to put in there too, is like if your therapist can't admit to being wrong about like something you're feeling or like something they said or a reframe that they got wrong, ooh. Olivia: Mm interesting. Yeah, that's fair. Again, that's so counter to me that I'm like, why would you even double down on something like that? Andrea: It's happened. Olivia: ⁓ no, I know. I know it happens. And it's happened to like some of my clients that I've worked with too. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah. The stories that we hear. And like Olivia: Yeah, and it's like, ⁓ well like this therapist thought all of my problems were because I like didn't know who my dad was. It was like well ⁓ Andrea: Right. Yeah. And and I fully admit, maybe I've been that therapist that just w like in the past. I don't think so. I would like to hope I didn't. But right, like I'm not perfect. Like maybe a client perceived me differently. Yeah. Olivia: Yeah, but like yeah. Yeah. But like we goof. Like there's no there's no way around it. And like sometimes we don't get feedback on when we goof. Andrea: Yeah. No. Right. Right. But I'm fully here and ready to Yeah, but I'm fully here ready to admit that like, yeah, I'm wrong. Like I can be wrong. And I want you to tell me that. But if my if my therapist can't admit that, peace out. Olivia: And I think that can be hard, but Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Like I said, it's just one of those like it's not a big cringe thing, but it's just like something that I think about internally and that like comes up in the more like day to day ⁓ I guess of therapy being a therapist. I guess I should correct that. Andrea: Mm-hmm. ⁓ for sure. Olivia: Yeah. Any any ⁓ cringe things that were on your mind? Andrea: I kinda have like two ish and I don't know if they're necessarily cringy, but they're things that like kind of annoy me. I guess that's cringe, icky, whatever. therapists that give homework every single week, like or like tell their clients to read books. Olivia: ⁓ I'm so happy you're saying this. Andrea: Like, I will fully admit, I have suggested books and like suggested things for people to like listen to on audiobook or whatever. But I'm not gonna be like, let's read chapter one together. Like, no. that's a style thing. I don't know. And maybe some clients do want that, but like, why are you doing that? Olivia: Totally. Andrea: It's not school. Olivia: Yeah, the homework. I do not like the homework. I'll recommend things. Like I'm not against I like it makes sense for us to recommend things. That's kind of the whole shtick, right? So it's not that I'm like anti-input or like not trying to be active in session or like engaged in what's happening or like I'm not trying to be passive, but like w w why would I Andrea: It also is just Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Why would I give them homework? Andrea: Mm-hmm. I've had clients ask me for homework. And feels like a lot of pressure. Because I used to, when I worked with kids, I used to give a lot of homework. And looking back on that, I'm like, why did I give kids their fucking therapy homework? Like they already have homework from school. I'm I why did I do that? It was because of my supervisor at the time. But it's like looking back on that, I'm like, why would I do that? That was so much pressure on me to like. Olivia: Hm. Andrea: rep homework and then if the session didn't go the way that the homework would have needed it to go, like then I'd wasted all that time. Like, no. Olivia: Yeah, it just doesn't really feel very individualized and and if you spend the time to make it more individualized, that's a lot of time. That like I I don't know, to me feels kind of wasted. I'm like, why would I wanna spend that much time? Andrea: No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing with like like I I think that there are some good books out there that clients can read on their excuse me. clients can read on their own on own time that is good in like conjunction with therapy. But I've seen therapists be like, ⁓ you should just This fresco's really getting me. Olivia: It's okay, the fresco got me earlier when we are meeting. You heard me. Andrea: Yeah. What was I saying? There are therapists out there that'll be like, just read this book and you'll feel better and I'm like Then wouldn't the client just read the book and not spend the money on therapy if that was true? Olivia: Yes. Andrea: Right? Like, yeah, I will recommend like there's a handful of books that you know that I recommend to people, but it's like I'm gonna have you come and talk to me about it and we're gonna talk about it because I need you to process it with me, like if you're really gonna do that. And I have done a client asked me to like walk through a book with them and we read like chapter to chapter. That was client led and because I'm so client centered, like I'm gonna do that. But it wasn't like that's not me. I don't know. It's weird. It doesn't feel like you know what you're doing. Olivia: I'm also a general proponent of I I wanna put in as much work as a client's willing to put in. So it's like if a client's gonna do homework then I should be doing homework. And I don't wanna do homework, so I'm not gonna give home work. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I like that perspective. ⁓ Olivia: Like I I wanna match my client's effort. So like if my client wants to put in the work, like I I'm gonna put in the work with them, but I think that work just looks different through my approach. It's not gonna look like homework. But because I like I wanna really meet that effort, they wanna do homework. I am not the clinician for them. Cause I'm not doing homework. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No. Yeah. Same. Same. I'm not like a a structured therapist either. Like and like that's a cringe thing. Like I think structure helps a lot of people, but that's just not me. Right. And I think homework leans into that structure piece that just feels unnatural to me. Unless it like comes up, like you said, and it's just ⁓ I'm gonna recommend this for you. Like or I've assigned clients to do homework. Olivia: Absolutely. Right. Yeah. Andrea: Which is like, I want you to go build a pillow fort this week. Like I've literally told somebody to do that. And that's like different, right? That's like engaging in things that we need during our week and it's not homework. And if they don't do it, I don't give a fuck. Like Olivia: Yeah, it's not like Right, that's the other downside of homework is that like when clients don't do it, then they come in. They're gonna be less likely to wanna come to therapy because they know they didn't do it. And then they like feel guilty and their shame. Andrea: Yeah. Great. Yes. ⁓ my gosh, yes. There's so much shame to that. Especially ADHD's. Olivia: So it's like well yeah, don't if they remember that if they remember that they had homework, yeah. Andrea: Yeah. You right? Yeah, exactly. it's like, I don't I don't want to have to sit in session when somebody pops in and be like, so did you do the homework? Fuck that. Olivia: Right. Yeah, if if you're starting session with how'd your homework go? Andrea: No. No. Not unless it was the unless it was like, did you build a pillow for it? Olivia: I'd rather start eating wood. Andrea: That's kind of my go to that's kind of my go to like inner child shit. like go build a pillow for it and watch a movie on your laptop. Olivia: Exactly. I like that though, right? Yeah, like yeah, I like that. What what was your what was your other thing? Andrea: I love it. Right? Isn't that fun? Yeah. other one, I don't want to be like dragged for this one. social media therapists. Like, but I have a little bit of like I have a lot of tolerance for it because I do think there's a lot of good to it. Like I do see a lot of benefit. I really like a lot of therapists on social media. I follow a bunch of them, but there's also like a line. Olivia: Mm. Andrea: And when I see a therapist like doing a full like TikTok dance I'm out. don't know. But like some of these other trends, like there's a trend right now where it's like if Netflix made a documentary about toxic therapy organizations, I'm like, ⁓ Love that. Get after it. But then if I see someone that's like, like doing a dance, I'm like, gross. Olivia: ⁓ Debbie, what's so funny about that is you made the same sound for the dance as you did your response to the dance. Andrea: Yeah. I did, didn't I? I did. Yes. Yes. Olivia: I appreciate it. Yeah, I I I'm all about that. Like, I'm all about that. ⁓ the ⁓ mu Andrea: Yeah. 'Cause like, what if ⁓ go ahead. Olivia: I'm a total topic change, so please keep keep me keep me here. Andrea: Well, what what ran through my head as I was saying that was like, what if my client saw me dancing on Instagram? Olivia: If I saw my therapist dancing on my phone, I think I'd be probably pretty close to like immediately throwing my phone away from me. Like that's the level of ick that I would feel. I'd be like, Whaaaa You know what I mean? Andrea: Because like Yeah. And again, like I think it would be kind of cool to see my therapist like giving therapy information or like mental health support out like or information out into the world. I think that'd be cool. But the moment I see them doing some sort of dance. Can't do Olivia: The other thing that I think about though is like of my clients have seen me in person. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: So like they just see me from like here up. I feel like just that alone would be bizarre. Like if I like, you know, like I saw my therapist remote and then all of a sudden I saw their whole body. I don't know. Like I feel like that would be immediately be like, ⁓ no, they're a floating head. Like can't do that. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have I have s I have seen some of my clients in person that I have, because like at our old job I would sometimes offer that if I was in town or whatever, because I needed to be at the office anyways. it was really weird when they would walk in and I would be like, like even for me, that's like weird, right? Where I'm like, I can't imagine what you thought my bottom half looked like. Like ⁓ Olivia: it's not even like in a negative way. It's just like you don't you don't think about it, and then all of a sudden you're like, you're a whole person, my God. ⁓ Andrea: No. But like Yeah. Well I think even when I met you for the first time in person, I was like, You're tall. Like Didn't I? I'm pretty sure I did, where I was like, ⁓ shit. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well that's what's so funny about doing things online is because everyone like is the same height. I had that. Andrea: Yes. I like swore you were the same height as me. And then like I had it in my head. I was like, ⁓ we're gonna see eye to eye. Nope. Nope. Olivia: Yeah, that's fair. We're not. had that happened when I met a supervisee in person like years and years ago, like at one of our like ⁓ ⁓ old employers like parties. And he was like 6'2. I was like, my god, you're like a giraffe person! I didn't say that out loud. I kept that in. I'm not an animal. But I legitimately was like, ⁓ my god, you're so tall. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: It was it was alarming. It was so alarming. I had no idea. Too funny. Andrea: Right? Right? Or you're like, ⁓ my God, you have an entire leg tattoo. Like you're like, what? Olivia: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Andrea: Or like are you a Vans person or a Converse person? Like It's so funny. Yeah, it's such a it's such a random thing, but it is like it's funny to think about like if I move away. Olivia: Totally. Also, f just for a reference, I'm five six. I'm really not that tall. Andrea's just short. Andrea: Okay I am five three ish. ⁓ Olivia: Yeah, we're real there's not really that much of a height difference. Andrea: To me it is. have to look up. Olivia: It's three inches too much. Andrea: Y it's a lot. means your chin is like at my eyeballs. Olivia: luck. The ⁓ other cringe thing that I thought about when we were talking about homework, journaling. Yeah. Andrea: Okay. Just generally. All of it. Olivia: So much. I I wanted to add context when I introduced it, but I just felt like it needed sparkle hands for introduction. Okay. Andrea: Yeah. It did need sparkly hands, yes. Olivia: think if a therapist is recommending journaling Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: I personally feel it's a little cringy. Andrea: I could see that. Mm-hmm. Olivia: Just like the general idea that like if we like journal it will be better. Andrea: Yes. So like using journaling so like using journaling as a therapy intervention. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. Yeah. Like I've seen it work for people, but I've never actually like I wouldn't be like journal it feels better. Olivia: That feels a little cringy. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ and There's very few people I know that actually journal. Like journal in the stereotypical sense when we say journal, like write down like thoughts and feelings of the day and blah blah blah blah blah. And maybe it's not every day, but like I knew I know very, very, very few people in my life that like actually journal. Andrea: Yeah. Exactly. Я A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. I think like if I am to recommend something like that, I number one, don't call it journaling. I call it like brain dumping when you need to. But like it's not traditional journaling, I guess. Cause I think the idea of journaling I also think that there was a I think journaling was a fad for a while. Like I wanna say like Olivia: Hm. Fair. Right. Andrea: I mean, teenagers obviously, like there when I was a teen or like a pre-teen, it was like real big to journal. And then I think there was a therapy trend of journaling where it was like gratitude journals and all these things. And there was like gratitude journals that you could buy at Barnes and Noble's and all these things. And it was like, Well, what is that really doing? Like I there is some value to gratitudes and like affirmation and stuff, but I was like, this is just a fad. This is just a we another trend. Olivia: ⁓ god, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. You know how many journals I I wished I journaled in when I was like a teenager? I felt more pressure to journal, like I feel pressured to eat protein now. Andrea: Yeah. Yes. Yes. agree. Olivia: But have you noticed that protein's turning to fiber? I'm feeling pressured to have fiber now too. Andrea: Don't even get me started on fiber. Don't even Olivia: I'd rather be pressured to journal, 'cause at least I know I'm not gonna do it. Andrea: Yeah. I mean I'm still not gonna do fiber even though I probably should for my heart health, but like Girls got high cholesterol. Like Olivia: I mean who doesn't in America? I mean on. Yeah, but just generally journaling, like that that whole thing feels ⁓ ⁓ I I wanna like put a disclaimer out there. We about like owning our ⁓ I I did full send recommend journaling in like my first year as being a therapist. Cause I like 'cause I had no idea what I was doing and I was like, well ⁓ Andrea: Truth. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Mm. Yeah. Well, I think you and I are both first to admit when we've done like leaned into a trend or when we've like recommended things because we didn't know what else to do, right? Or like Yeah. Olivia: Have you tried journaling? Which is so like it's so bonkers to me 'cause I'm like, I I will never journal in my life. Why on earth would that come out of my mouth as a recommendation? Like actually psychological. I can't believe I recommended that when I knew in my heart I would never do that in my life. Andrea: I know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think the I would say the only time I've ever, like in my more recent years of being a therapist, the only time I would recommend it is if I noticed a client finding like support in writing. And then I'd be like, hey, I've noticed this about you. Let's try journaling. Right. Like, but I'm not gonna just outright be like, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: What? Right. Right, or like they already journal or like have journaled. Like, hey, like you said that was helpful, like have you done it recently? Like blah blah blah blah blah. But yeah. Andrea: I had I had I I did a a first session with a therapist for myself once. And like I could talk about her, all of her red flags in this first session in another episode. But one of the things I started, I was seeking therapy because I had just lost a friend to suicide. in the first session, I was like telling her everything. She was like, I think you need to journal about your ⁓ excuse me. No. I haven't even had the mo had a moment to process it. Like Olivia: Or I could just I was like, or I could just talk about it now. Andrea: Yeah. And she was like, you should write a letter to your friend. Olivia: that's yeah, let's let's let's circle on that for a second. That is cringe. Writing ⁓ that you're never gonna send I don't know. That just says like what? ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. I've done that one a handful of times. Olivia: For yourself or like f suggested to clients? Andrea: No, for suggested for to clients, but but again, it it's not a tool that I use all the time, which I feel like is my disclaimer, is that like again, I only do it when I see it having an actual potential impact. It's not like a skill or a tool that I use all the time. Olivia: Right. I mean honestly, like to me I would say that's like a therapeutic tool, not a clinical one. And we could get into like the splitting hairs on that in another episode as well of like what's the difference between a clinical thing versus a therapeutic thing. But like writing a letter you're never gonna send isn't really a clinical intervention, that's like a therapeutic one. In my mind. Andrea: Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: So like to me it doesn't doesn't count because I'm talking about like if somebody were to try to s recommend it as a clinical intervention and I'm like, yeah no. Very, very, very cringy. Andrea: Mm, yeah. ⁓ yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I just thought of an another one. is Therapist I don't even really know what else to say. Like, I will be honest. I think I have sent you, I think I have sent you one before that was like a trip somewhere to like Costa Rica. And I was like, business expense. But like, in reality, reality, I don't think I could handle that. Like, I don't think I could be in a room of therapists for like four days. Like rich. Olivia: What yeah, what what even is that? What what is that? He Yeah, 'cause you already had to do that for your grad program, where you were like stuck in a hotel room with a bunch of people. Andrea: Right? What is that gonna do? What is that gonna do? Like, some of these retreats have special like CEUs that you can get or like trainings, but I'm like, why can't I just sit in my pajamas and watch a live webinar on this? Why do I have to go to Costa Rica, do with all these therapists and learn about ACT? I don't know. ⁓ Olivia: It's just Okay, ⁓ when I've seen the retreats, they're like super hippy dippy, right? It's like, ⁓ like they're like ⁓ we're all gonna meditate together while touching toes for the first four hours and it's like, okay Andrea: Yeah, that's the ones I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta breathe. I did a tra I watched a training. Like I did my own on demand training and the therapist was touching toes with her client. That's what triggered the what triggered. Olivia: Okay. Andrea: Sorry for the sound. Olivia: I I don't personally meditate a lot, but helpful for people, sure, cool, whatever. I don't wanna do it with a room of people I've never freaking met in a place that I would rather be outside in than inside meditating. ⁓ think that sounds like hell. You're not gonna catch me on one of those retreats, that's all I gotta say. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. just can't really think of a retreat that I would be cool with unless it was a bunch of people that I really liked. Like if it was like you and some of our like close colleagues and we just like I don't know went to a cabin for the weekend and colored. Like I'd be like, Yeah, therapist retreat. This is great. But the ones that are advertised for money, nah. No like it. Olivia: like it either. That's so gross. yeah. And there was like all inclusive guy. Look. was to make a point of how ridiculous it sounds and how I would never do one. Andrea: You said touching toes. Yeah. Yeah. And now I'm seeing ⁓ with Olivia: Even just the idea of like going away for the weekend for like a weekend long training sounds exhausting and terrible. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. If if it's your thing, it's your thing. It's not our thing. It's not our thing. Olivia: So I feel like a lot of therapists that would be going to those things would have them paid for by their work. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: 'Cause I have a colleague that like she's like, ⁓ yeah, I like get a like C E budget every year and I'm like What? Andrea: If I had a C E budget, you bet your ass I'm doing something like that. Olivia: That's it that's the point I'm making. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. I do know people that have paid out of pocket for like self care retreats. But like I think I'm so good at doing my own self care retreat that that feels like a waste of money to me. Olivia: What the heck is a self care retreat? Andrea: Cabin in the woods with a bunch of therapists meditating, talking about their burnout, things like that. It's like a burnout summit type stuff. Olivia: I hope they don't call out call it Burnout Summit because that's a really funny thing to me. Here's the peak of burnout. Join us. Andrea: Honestly, should we monetize that? And then all of Olivia: Also, just go rent a cabin in the woods and go be by yourself for a weekend. Like, I don't know. Like, why do you need a what Andrea: I'm gonna go capitalize on that. Cause and it's gonna be it's gonna be a cabin in the woods or on the beach and all we're gonna do is drink margaritas. Olivia: Ha ha the deli containers. Where you like punch a straw through the top. Andrea: Yes. And then we're gonna have like one twenty minute session on like burnout and and then we're going to the beach. Count it. Olivia: Check. Andrea: Twenty four C E Olivia: Ha ha ha. The end of CE survey is like, was the margarita good? Yes or no? Andrea: Ha ha Olivia: Did you attend? Yes or no? Andrea: Did you Did you learn anything from your instructor? They make a mean margarita. Olivia: Yeah. Would you recommend this to a colleague? Andrea: ⁓ man. ⁓ man. Well that we have some cringes. Olivia: ⁓ goodness. We covered a lot, yeah. We we covered some good ground. I feel I feel good about that. Andrea: We really did. We really did. As usual, as usual. So I am curious to hear people's rebuttals and people's cringes if there's any that we didn't miss. But we covered a lot of ground, so like you said. But I think, yeah, please add to the list. Let's see what else there is. but definitely thought of some other interesting topics to talk about along the way. Of course, if you have any ideas, please leave them in the comments. Olivia: Yeah, let's add to the list, friends. Andrea: ⁓ don't forget to like, subscribe, share. it helps us just like reach other people and get our nonsense out there. but that's all for us and we cannot wait to see you in another episode. Yeah.