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Building an Early Foundation for Healthy Sexuality · Embodied

• 0:00
  Kaia Findlay: This is Embodied, our show about sex, relationships, and your health. I'm Kaya Findlay, sitting in for Anita Rao. A healthy relationship to sex and sexuality starts in childhood, but knowing what's normal in terms of kids' sexual development isn't always clear, and talking to them about it can be tricky and sometimes uncomfortable.
• 0:40
  Nadine Thornhill: Hi, thank you for having me.
• 0:42
  Kaia Findlay: So I'd love to start by laying some groundwork for this conversation by talking about what we mean when we say childhood sexuality. So I'm curious to just hear how you define this topic as a sexuality educator.
• 0:55
  Nadine Thornhill: So, uh, what I often say is that childhood sexuality and actually human sexuality is really just a part of learning how to be a human.
• 1:58
  Kaia Findlay: I really like that definition of sexuality, of just thinking about it as being all-encompassing. And when we're thinking about talking about it with kids specifically, I think it can-- it's kind of a tricky conversation because what we're not talking about is, like, we're not talking about kids having sex.
• 2:25
  Nadine Thornhill: Yes. That, that is definitely a lot of it. It's also about, you know, their-- you know, young children even though they often don't have a language and they don't have the same context to understand the world the way an adult might, they are still existing in the world.
• 3:12
  Kaia Findlay: Mm-hmm. And can you describe a little bit about, like, what, what kind of develop is-- development is happening in terms of sexuality and health before we reach puberty? I think maybe it can be a little bit surprising that, you know, we associate kind of learning about our bodies and, like, exploring relationships with those puberty and teenage years, and so what, what is happening before that?
• 3:36
  Nadine Thornhill: Yeah, absolutely. So before I dive into some of the specifics something I just want to address is that as a sexuality educator I would say that 90% of the questions that I get, um, including those about childhood sexuality are some version of, "Is this normal?" or, "What is normal?" Which is very understandable.
• 12:27
  Kaia Findlay: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's a really nice, yeah, overview of all the things to look out for, and especially what you were saying about for young kids, it's not necessarily always erotic.
• 13:23
  Nadine Thornhill: Yeah, absolutely. So I am, in addition to being a sex educator, I, um, I am a, a parent. I'm almost two decades into parenting now. And so I have a lot of empathy for my fellow parents and I just want to, assure folks that a lot of us, myself included, and this is my job come to this with some degree of anxiety.
• 16:51
  Kaia Findlay: Mm,
• 16:52
  Nadine Thornhill: thank you.
• 16:59
  Kaia Findlay: And when you come back, just beware of the elbows. Okay.
• 17:09
  Nadine Thornhill: Oh no, two trains. Wow. Is it-- Are they commuter trains or for- They're commuter trains. They're going in-- They're-- One's coming, one's going. Busy Wednesday. Okay. All right. Okay. There we go. I think we're good now. Yeah. So we all bear responsibility for teaching our children well and giving them the tools that they need to make, healthy, life-affirming decisions around their sexuality.
• 17:58
  Kaia Findlay: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I like that about how, yeah, these are conversations you're gonna have again and again, and yeah, you can try several times. And I'd love to hear about, yeah, one specific scenario that, a conversation that you might be able to have that will change as a kid gets older because, yeah, just as they get older.
• 18:46
  Nadine Thornhill: Okay, yeah. That's a, that's a, a great one, um, and that comes up often. So I'll sort of, yeah, I'll, I'll give you sort of, ideally what would happen. So yeah, you know, you might have a very young child who is, you know, just fiddling with their vulva or their penis while they're, you know, you know, say like watching TV in a shared family space.
• 23:06
  Kaia Findlay: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think-- Yeah ... that's so important to think about that line between setting boundaries and talking about what's private, but also not introducing the shame or creating this idea that the behavior is bad in itself. And so I'd love to hear, like, how parents can, like, keep walking that line and, like, in a different scenario, like, maybe where kids are not only exploring their own bodies, but they're exploring other people's bodies and, like-- Mm-hmm
• 23:56
  Nadine Thornhill: Yeah, absolutely. And again, this, this can be a hard one. There, we, you know, we can have our own feelings of shame that might come up particularly if we th- you know, we're thinking about, oh, you know, what is somebody else's parents going to think about me or my child or whatnot.
• 25:26
  Kaia Findlay: Busy morning,
• 25:27
  Nadine Thornhill: getting going. It's a busy morning. Okay.
• 26:18
  Kaia Findlay: Mm-hmm. That's interesting of, like, yeah, the social appropriateness of these conversations, 'cause some things-- Mm-hmm -- it seems like it's more okay when the kid is little and it's obvious they're learning, but then there gets to be a point where maybe it's not socially acceptable for a kid to be running around naked anymore, for instance.
• 26:40
  Nadine Thornhill: That is so c- socially and culturally dependent because for example and if you have, you know, listeners outside of, of North America, specifically English-speaking North America, you know, say in I know in Europe and, and other parts of the world where public nudity is much more common in certain scenarios than it is here.
• 28:28
  Kaia Findlay: These examples of the conversations are great, though. Thank you.
• 28:34
  Nadine Thornhill: So, for example, if you live in a home where, your value is nudity is something that I am comfortable I'm comfortable with in this home, then you can say that to your child by owning your values using an I statement or a we statement or an our statement.
• 30:53
  Kaia Findlay: I like that of having them be part of the conversations rather than you're have-- giving them a talk. Like, they're, they're allowed to ask questions and respond and think about things for themselves. And I think that that relates to this question I had about how I've heard this fear about sexual education, that if you tell kids about something, especially something pleasurable, like, they'll just wanna do it.
• 31:41
  Nadine Thornhill: Yes, absolutely. So I'm, I'm going to sort of reiterate something that I said earlier that if you are, a loving, caring, conscientious parent, which I find that most parents who are grappling with this question of like, "Oh my gosh, what if I say too much?" Typically are. That's why they're, questioning their approach.
• 35:35
  Kaia Findlay: Yeah. And so you said, yeah, you said earlier, like, there is such a wide range of what's normal, and it's, yeah, it's okay for you to make mistakes in how you talk about things, and but it is like, yeah, so parents are concerned about, like, yeah, making sure their kids are safe and learning boundaries.
• 36:08
  Nadine Thornhill: Yeah, absolutely. So there are a few things that I would advise parents to look out for. And actually the first one has to do not with your child's behavior but with people who may be in your child's life, specifically other adults or, um, people who are older than your child, so even, say teenagers, whatnot.
• 42:24
  Kaia Findlay: Yeah, that's all great information to have.
• 43:12
  Nadine Thornhill: Yeah. I think one of, one of the most important benefits of being that parent or caring adult who, you know, has these conversations, asks these questions, does as much as they can to let their child know that, hey, sex and sexuality is, yeah, this is just part of, you know, this is part of what we, we talk about.
• 44:58
  Kaia Findlay: I like that question. Is porn happening?
• 45:01
  Nadine Thornhill: Is porn
• 45:04
  Kaia Findlay: happening?
• 45:16
  Nadine Thornhill: Okay. So yeah, if you, you have a teen and they have a phone and, and you're wondering to yourself, "Oh, okay, is porn happening?" You may not ask them directly, "Hey, are you watching porn on your phone?" They might tell you if they are, but there's a good chance that they won't. But something you could say to them is, "Hey, I, I read an article," or, "I was talking to some of my friends, um, about online porn.
• 47:24
  Kaia Findlay: Nadine Thornhill, thank you so much for this conversation.
• 47:28
  Nadine Thornhill: Thank you so much for having me.