Latest / The You Project / #1949 The Biology of Trauma - Dr. Aimie Apigian

Transcript

#1949 The Biology of Trauma - Dr. Aimie Apigian · The You Project

0:01
Speaker 1: Dr Amy, Welcome to the You Project.
0:04
Speaker 2: Ah, thank you, it is so good to be here.
0:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you're impressive.
0:10
Speaker 3: I've done a little bit of a deep dive, I've
0:11
Speaker 3: done a shallowed a medium dive. I've watched some videos,
0:15
Speaker 3: I've read some stuff, I've listened to some stuff. Your
0:21
Speaker 3: work is great, You're great. Can you give rather than
0:24
Speaker 3: me just read something off the screen, which is boring
0:28
Speaker 3: for the listener, can you give my audience a snapshot
0:30
Speaker 3: of who you are and what you do?
0:32
Speaker 1: Please?
0:34
Speaker 2: The snapshot of who I am. I am a double
0:37
Speaker 2: board certified physician. I'm boarded in both preventive medicine which
0:40
Speaker 2: is your chronic health and epidemiology and public health, and
0:45
Speaker 2: then boarded an addiction medicine, and that was where I
0:48
Speaker 2: spent the most majority of my practice, running different detok centers,
0:52
Speaker 2: helping people get off of alcohol, opiates, pain pills, anxiety pills,
0:59
Speaker 2: and sleep pills, every thing that we can get addicted
1:02
Speaker 2: and dependent on. And that was not my original plan.
1:06
Speaker 2: So I actually spent four years in general surgery first
1:10
Speaker 2: before changing my career to addiction medicine. And the reason
1:14
Speaker 2: for that change was because I wanted to bring trauma
1:20
Speaker 2: into medicine, and the way that I saw that I
1:23
Speaker 2: might be able to do that was by going through
1:26
Speaker 2: preventive medicine and addiction medicine, as I felt that those
1:30
Speaker 2: were most closely attached to but also already recognizing the
1:35
Speaker 2: impact of trauma the average child experiences. Studies came out
1:39
Speaker 2: of preventive medicine departments, for example, and then addiction medicine.
1:43
Speaker 2: I think, especially with the work of gobor Mate, has
1:46
Speaker 2: been bringing light to the trauma piece to addiction, so
1:50
Speaker 2: I felt that that would be a natural home for me.
1:52
Speaker 2: I found that no medicine is not yet quite ready
1:57
Speaker 2: to really talk about and bring trauma in medicine, and
2:01
Speaker 2: so that was when I left my medical practice and
2:04
Speaker 2: have started online courses for self help individuals and practitioners.
2:09
Speaker 2: But going all the way back, my initial initiation into
2:13
Speaker 2: even studying trauma was becoming a foster parent and then adopting,
2:18
Speaker 2: and I thought I knew trauma. I thought I knew
2:22
Speaker 2: what kids who had been through trauma would need. They
2:26
Speaker 2: needed love, stability, and time, and I found that none
2:31
Speaker 2: of those are enough. In fact, time does not heal.
2:35
Speaker 2: Time only compounds the problem. When we have stored trauma, unresolved,
2:41
Speaker 2: experiences of neglect overwhelm pain, and that becomes our biology,
2:47
Speaker 2: and that becomes our disease. And that is what now
2:50
Speaker 2: motivates me to do the work that I do.
2:54
Speaker 3: Wow, Wow, without throwing anyone under the bus, because you
2:57
Speaker 3: and I are not you know, pradiction's throwing people.
3:01
Speaker 1: No, No, we're not like that.
3:02
Speaker 3: But of all the approaches and I guess models around
3:08
Speaker 3: treating trauma, how many what percentage, give or take.
3:13
Speaker 1: Do you think are not that effective?
3:16
Speaker 3: I mean that's a I know that's a hard but
3:18
Speaker 3: I feel like your approach, it's not unique, but it's
3:21
Speaker 3: not typical, and like as much as of dive I've done,
3:26
Speaker 3: it totally makes sense. And I feel like a lot
3:30
Speaker 3: of people are perhaps doing a version of therapy or
3:32
Speaker 3: something that's not really helping them a lot.
3:36
Speaker 2: Well, that was my experience and that's how I started
3:38
Speaker 2: with all of this. I found that I needed to
3:41
Speaker 2: do my own trauma work had never been something on
3:44
Speaker 2: my radar because I am not one who had thought
3:47
Speaker 2: that I had trauma to have to work through. But
3:50
Speaker 2: as I started my trauma work, I realized that my
3:54
Speaker 2: body couldn't keep up. Yeah, my body was getting tired.
3:57
Speaker 2: I'd go and I'd have a great therapy session, and
4:00
Speaker 2: then I'd find myself on the couch physically exhausted, binge
4:05
Speaker 2: eating and zoning out with movies and I'm like, something
4:08
Speaker 2: is not right here. And then I started actually going
4:11
Speaker 2: into therapy training. So I'm now training with therapists, and
4:16
Speaker 2: I'm finding my mind zoning out and checking you know,
4:21
Speaker 2: out for when they're teaching about specific things that I'm realizing, Oh,
4:26
Speaker 2: like my mind is dissociating when it's speaking a truth
4:30
Speaker 2: that my body is like me, that's been me, And
4:34
Speaker 2: I was so disconnected without even knowing I was disconnected. Great, Like,
4:38
Speaker 2: that's that's how disconnected I was. I didn't even know
4:40
Speaker 2: I was disconnected. And so then as I started looking
4:44
Speaker 2: at my patients and my patients are coming to me
4:46
Speaker 2: with the same conditions that I used to have, automunity,
4:50
Speaker 2: chronic fatigue, depression, anxiety, and I'm seeing that they are
4:56
Speaker 2: just as get disconnected. They also have this story trauma
5:00
Speaker 2: in their body and they don't even know it. They
5:02
Speaker 2: don't even recognize it because it's not yelling I'm trauma,
5:07
Speaker 2: I'm trauma. It's yelling I'm depressed, I'm anxious, I have autoimmunity.
5:13
Speaker 2: And so when I'm realizing that most of them have
5:16
Speaker 2: done some form of therapy and it clearly has not
5:20
Speaker 2: changed the impact of trauma on their biology. To me,
5:25
Speaker 2: that is not healing. To me, that's just managing behaviors
5:33
Speaker 2: and emotions. But that's not actual healing, because for me,
5:37
Speaker 2: healing is reversing the impact, reversing the damage, repairing the
5:44
Speaker 2: broken pieces. And if I haven't repaired my biology and
5:48
Speaker 2: my biology is still under the impact of my past,
5:53
Speaker 2: that's not healing.
5:57
Speaker 1: Wow, you're good. You should do this for a job.
6:02
Speaker 2: I'll think about that. These creed.
6:05
Speaker 3: Make a career out of it. You're quite good at it.
6:09
Speaker 3: I feel like doc that. In terms of treatment and uh,
6:16
Speaker 3: you know, health and wellness and the whole kind of
6:20
Speaker 3: you know, thinking, feeling, being better medically, emotionally, psychologically, sociologically,
6:26
Speaker 3: all of those things. When it comes to treatment, everything's
6:29
Speaker 3: kind of treated in echo chambers in isolation. Oh so
6:34
Speaker 3: there's the mind. Just go over there where the mind is,
6:37
Speaker 3: and then we'll go into that other compartment over there
6:40
Speaker 3: there the emotions over there. Oh, he's got he's got
6:44
Speaker 3: a physical problem. That's down the corridor. Fourth door on
6:47
Speaker 3: the left. We'll deal with the physical and then rather
6:51
Speaker 3: than go no, everything affects everything. This is not three
6:54
Speaker 3: or four or five systems. This is an integrated system
6:57
Speaker 3: and everything. You know, you have a thought, there's a
6:59
Speaker 3: there's a a physiological or biological consequence to the thought.
7:04
Speaker 3: If you have a certain thought, that might produce happy hormones,
7:07
Speaker 3: if you have another thought that might produce stress hormones.
7:11
Speaker 1: If you feel if you think something positive.
7:14
Speaker 3: Your heart rate goes up or down, or for better
7:18
Speaker 3: or worse, it depends, you know, or like I think,
7:21
Speaker 3: trying to understand that all of these physiological things are
7:25
Speaker 3: byproducts of experiences or thoughts or moments in time or
7:30
Speaker 3: emotions or Yeah, it's like trying to understand the totality
7:35
Speaker 3: of me. You know, I live in a body, but
7:38
Speaker 3: I'm not a body. That kind of stuff as well, and.
7:42
Speaker 2: The lack of integration is causing this big gap in
7:47
Speaker 2: our healing practices. Yeah, because we don't want a heal
7:52
Speaker 2: in isolation, and whether we're talking about isolated from other
7:55
Speaker 2: people or isolated in terms of our own compartments are
8:00
Speaker 2: being there has to be this sense of wholeness, because
8:04
Speaker 2: that's what healing is. Healing is a return to wholeness.
8:08
Speaker 2: But if you're not addressing the whole aspect of you,
8:12
Speaker 2: then you're never going to return to a sense of
8:14
Speaker 2: wholeness in the healing process.
8:17
Speaker 3: Yes, could you tell us a bit, as much or
8:20
Speaker 3: as little as you want about you know, being in
8:22
Speaker 3: medical school. How old were you when you adopted your son?
8:27
Speaker 2: I was in my twenties.
8:29
Speaker 1: Yeah? What what? What?
8:31
Speaker 3: How does that happen? I mean, well, firstly, amazing, well done,
8:35
Speaker 3: you're awesome. But why does a twenty year old who
8:40
Speaker 3: you know is uh knees deep, nose deep in study
8:46
Speaker 3: and research and trying to get through one of the
8:48
Speaker 3: hardest courses.
8:49
Speaker 1: Of all time. What leads you to go and adopt
8:52
Speaker 1: a child?
8:55
Speaker 2: Do you want the.
8:58
Speaker 1: Short or as long as.
9:00
Speaker 2: Actually acceptable answer or do you want the real answer?
9:03
Speaker 1: I want the real answer, of course.
9:07
Speaker 2: So on the surface, it is a very noble thing
9:11
Speaker 2: to do, right, Wow, look at you. You adopted and
9:15
Speaker 2: you did it while you were in medical school. Wow,
9:18
Speaker 2: how great you are. Yeah, that's the surface answer. The
9:23
Speaker 2: real answer is I was still searching for being worthy.
9:30
Speaker 2: I was still searching for my sense of I matter, Yeah,
9:37
Speaker 2: And that was how it presented for me. It presented
9:40
Speaker 2: in high functioning, always needing to accomplish, always needing to
9:45
Speaker 2: be busy, always needing to be creating stress for myself
9:49
Speaker 2: so that I could feel like I'm alert and active,
9:53
Speaker 2: because if I stopped, I would feel myself going into
9:56
Speaker 2: this heaviness and this depression was like, no, I don't
10:01
Speaker 2: like that feeling. Of course, now I know that that
10:03
Speaker 2: feeling is that buried trauma. And I was trying to
10:08
Speaker 2: escape that. Don't let me be still because I might feel, Yes,
10:14
Speaker 2: And I had the unconscious belief that if I actually
10:19
Speaker 2: felt the pain that I was caring from my life
10:23
Speaker 2: and childhood, I believed that I was going to fall apart.
10:27
Speaker 2: I'd become a puddle on the floor.
10:30
Speaker 1: Yes.
10:30
Speaker 2: And so it was this need for constant busyness, activity
10:35
Speaker 2: and accomplishment. My father was also adopted, so I grew
10:42
Speaker 2: up in a family where we were we were impacted
10:46
Speaker 2: by his unresolved pain of being adopted and him not
10:50
Speaker 2: ever being able to feel his pain and look at
10:57
Speaker 2: his pain. He spent his life to escape that, making
11:01
Speaker 2: himself busy, making him himself, trying to find ways in
11:06
Speaker 2: which he could feel like I matter, I matter, I
11:11
Speaker 2: am wanted, I am loved, And as the middle daughter,
11:16
Speaker 2: I ended up being the one who was emotionally closer
11:20
Speaker 2: to him than my sisters, and I absorbed a lot
11:23
Speaker 2: of that. I remember, even from a very early age,
11:26
Speaker 2: being a young girl standing watching him. I'm looking up
11:31
Speaker 2: at him, of course, and I'm looking at him being like,
11:33
Speaker 2: what do I need to do to make you happy?
11:37
Speaker 1: Wow?
11:38
Speaker 2: What do I need to do to take care of you?
11:41
Speaker 2: And I lost myself in the process. Wow, I didn't
11:44
Speaker 2: even know who I was. Yeah, and you take that
11:48
Speaker 2: into adulthood, and here's an opportunity that I have to
11:51
Speaker 2: adopt as boy who was also born to a teenage mother,
11:56
Speaker 2: just like my father, And it was re enacting this
12:00
Speaker 2: relationship of trying to save someone else, yes, but losing
12:06
Speaker 2: myself in the process.
12:08
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, Wow, I feel a lot of people do that.
12:13
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's so that that kind of been smooth, that
12:20
Speaker 4: kind of been without significant hurdles, challenges, pain, chaos.
12:26
Speaker 3: May him tease that, what give us the snapshot of that?
12:30
Speaker 1: How do you? I feel like that's hotter than doing medicine.
12:35
Speaker 3: It was.
12:36
Speaker 2: It was the hardest thing I have been through and
12:39
Speaker 2: it led to many nights on the floor on my
12:43
Speaker 2: knees crying, I don't know how to keep going. Now,
12:48
Speaker 2: I will give this context that he he was very
12:54
Speaker 2: severe in his behaviors as a result of his attachment
12:59
Speaker 2: and trust issues. And there's usually a honeymoon period when
13:05
Speaker 2: a new child comes into your home as an adopted
13:07
Speaker 2: child or a foster care child, and that honeymoon period
13:13
Speaker 2: is normal, it's expected, and it's almost like they are
13:16
Speaker 2: on their best behavior because they too are trying to matter,
13:20
Speaker 2: They too are trying to be loved and accepted, and
13:23
Speaker 2: they want to belong and they know that they get
13:26
Speaker 2: their act together in order for you to not kick
13:28
Speaker 2: them out and reject them just like they've been rejected.
13:32
Speaker 2: But after that honeymoon period, for me, I started to
13:35
Speaker 2: see some real disregulation, emotional disregulation Craig. One of the
13:40
Speaker 2: things that surprised me the most was simply telling him no,
13:48
Speaker 2: just that simple word, two letters n oh. No would
13:53
Speaker 2: throw him off of the edge. He could not handle no.
13:58
Speaker 2: And I don't care if this was a no, we
14:01
Speaker 2: can't go outside and play right now because we're going
14:03
Speaker 2: to eat dinner, or no, you can't have that treat
14:08
Speaker 2: and that candy because for whatever reason, it didn't matter
14:12
Speaker 2: what it was about, just the word no he could
14:16
Speaker 2: not handle. And what that looked like for him was
14:20
Speaker 2: a lot of aggression and anger. He would hit me,
14:24
Speaker 2: bite me, kick me, punch me, pee on me. And
14:28
Speaker 2: that's just the beginning of the list.
14:30
Speaker 1: Wow.
14:32
Speaker 2: So if he had been less severe, Wow, I would
14:38
Speaker 2: not have been on this journey, Craig. So I look
14:41
Speaker 2: back and I see that because of the type of
14:43
Speaker 2: person that I was, I'm a different version of myself now,
14:48
Speaker 2: but the kind of person that I was then, I
14:51
Speaker 2: needed that level of challenge for it to break me
14:55
Speaker 2: and unravel me so that I could then take a
15:00
Speaker 2: good look at myself and see it's not just him.
15:04
Speaker 2: I also need healing.
15:08
Speaker 1: How does you know this is funny?
15:11
Speaker 3: I think about this a lot like my research is
15:13
Speaker 3: in metapception, which is understanding how other people perceive us
15:16
Speaker 3: and understanding the so in your case would be you
15:21
Speaker 3: know your insight into understanding the amy experience for Craig.
15:24
Speaker 3: Right now, I've been coaching and working with people. I
15:28
Speaker 3: owned multiple gyms, I've trained thousands of people, work with
15:31
Speaker 3: teams and athletes. All this stuff corporate speaker. So I'm
15:34
Speaker 3: always in front of people, and I've always been curious about,
15:38
Speaker 3: you know, how is this experience for them, and not
15:43
Speaker 3: from well maybe sometimes from an insecurity perspective, I guess,
15:46
Speaker 3: but typically more curiosity because I want I want the
15:50
Speaker 3: presentation or the meeting or the coaching to be of
15:54
Speaker 3: value to them.
15:56
Speaker 1: Right then, when I dive into.
15:58
Speaker 3: The research that I've been doing, it doesn't always align
16:02
Speaker 3: with the real world experience, and I'm like, yeah, I
16:07
Speaker 3: know that that's how your study went, but out of
16:10
Speaker 3: that fucking academic little pool bubble, bloody echo chamber out
16:16
Speaker 3: here in the world, it doesn't really work like that, right,
16:20
Speaker 3: what's that gap between what you know and what you've
16:24
Speaker 3: experienced personally at the coal face of the shitfest of
16:29
Speaker 3: all that? And I know you love him and it's beautiful,
16:31
Speaker 3: but it's also been a shitfest.
16:33
Speaker 1: I'm sure. What's the space between the.
16:36
Speaker 3: Research and the thinking within the psychology community or whatever
16:41
Speaker 3: and what you learned.
16:45
Speaker 1: Oh, Craig, You're.
16:46
Speaker 2: Taking me right deep into my experience. And this is
16:49
Speaker 2: what the hardest part was for me. I felt so
16:53
Speaker 2: alone in this. Yeah, because I'm looking at the research
16:58
Speaker 2: and I'm seeing the ever evidence based studies that well,
17:01
Speaker 2: this therapy should work, and this therapy should work. So
17:04
Speaker 2: what do I do as a parent who is so
17:07
Speaker 2: dedicated to finding answers for her son. I am driving hours,
17:12
Speaker 2: I am spending all of my money for these evidence
17:16
Speaker 2: based treatments that actually are making him worse.
17:19
Speaker 1: Yes.
17:21
Speaker 2: Yes, And there came a moment when for me it
17:25
Speaker 2: changed everything, for me being willing to stop the search
17:31
Speaker 2: for another evidence based treatment and go with my gut
17:35
Speaker 2: for what I saw was working. This moment came on
17:38
Speaker 2: a hot August afternoon. We had just come in from
17:42
Speaker 2: playing outside. It was my ritual that I get home
17:45
Speaker 2: from the hospital because, let me remind you, I'm a
17:48
Speaker 2: medical student during this time. So by day I'm in
17:51
Speaker 2: the hospital clinic, I'm seeing patients, and I'm coming home
17:55
Speaker 2: and my home is like a child psych unit. It's dangerous,
18:00
Speaker 2: it's emotional, it's reactive. I never know when something is
18:04
Speaker 2: going to come flying at my head. And it was
18:07
Speaker 2: just that routine that I got into. The minute I
18:09
Speaker 2: get home, I know that he's going to have emotions
18:12
Speaker 2: about me being home, me having left him alone all alone, right,
18:16
Speaker 2: like leaving him in daycare during the day for him,
18:19
Speaker 2: that was you left me, and so we're going to
18:21
Speaker 2: need to work through some emotions. He's a boyd Let's
18:24
Speaker 2: go outside and play, let's play ball, let's get active.
18:27
Speaker 2: And so we're coming in from our daily routine and
18:30
Speaker 2: now we have our daily bonding time and I pull
18:35
Speaker 2: him up into my arms, so I'm holding him. His
18:38
Speaker 2: head is in my shoulder or my elbow as if
18:40
Speaker 2: he were a little baby, and I rock him as
18:43
Speaker 2: I always do to kind of promote that relaxation and
18:47
Speaker 2: that bonding and this, you know, like attachment stuff that
18:50
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be doing. And I was not prepared
18:54
Speaker 2: for what he was going to say next. He said, Mommy,
19:00
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill you tomorrow.
19:02
Speaker 1: Wow.
19:03
Speaker 2: Not today, Mommy tomorrow wow. And he talked about it
19:09
Speaker 2: as if it were talking about what we were going
19:12
Speaker 2: to have for dinner. It was very casual for him.
19:15
Speaker 2: It was very pallast for him. And he went on
19:19
Speaker 2: to say that he was going to start by poking
19:22
Speaker 2: my eyes out with sticks.
19:24
Speaker 1: Wow. How old was he at this stage.
19:28
Speaker 2: At that moment in that rocking chair? He was five?
19:33
Speaker 1: Wow.
19:34
Speaker 2: And we I mean talk about the perception that people
19:37
Speaker 2: have of you. This is what he was going through.
19:41
Speaker 2: He had an experience of what mom meant to him. Yes,
19:47
Speaker 2: Mom meant someone who says she loves you and then
19:52
Speaker 2: forgets to feed you. Yes, who abandons you, who prefers
19:57
Speaker 2: for him. His birth mom preferred substances and drugs and
20:01
Speaker 2: her friends to caring for him. He had fallen off
20:06
Speaker 2: of a bed and broken his collarbone, and she had
20:08
Speaker 2: never taken him to the hospital. So that for him
20:13
Speaker 2: was his body's implicit memory of what Mom meant. And
20:19
Speaker 2: so then when I step into the role of now
20:22
Speaker 2: he's calling me mom, I'm getting his perception of mom,
20:28
Speaker 2: and he wants nothing to do with me, even though
20:33
Speaker 2: I am not that mom. Yeah yeah, yeah, But that's
20:38
Speaker 2: not what his brain and his body were wired to believe.
20:43
Speaker 2: And this is what trauma does for us. Trauma creates
20:46
Speaker 2: these beliefs that are so deep beyond our conscious control. Logically,
20:52
Speaker 2: he could look at me and he would even tell me.
20:54
Speaker 2: He'd put his arm next to my arm and he'd
20:55
Speaker 2: be like, mom, we're different colors, because he was full hispanic.
21:00
Speaker 2: I know, look at that. So he could consciously understand
21:04
Speaker 2: I am not his biological mom, I am not that mom.
21:08
Speaker 2: But his body and his brain had these experiences that
21:12
Speaker 2: had been so terrifying for him, and that is what
21:16
Speaker 2: trauma is. Trauma is a moment where we feel terrified
21:20
Speaker 2: for our life. Yeah, and the body holds onto those
21:24
Speaker 2: experiences and creates our perception of the world, of others
21:30
Speaker 2: and even ourselves. And so he had from a perception
21:34
Speaker 2: of himself that he was unlovable.
21:38
Speaker 3: How do you protect you in the middle of that,
21:40
Speaker 3: because obviously, in that moment, your priority is him and
21:43
Speaker 3: his well being and physical, mental, and emotional health and
21:47
Speaker 3: an opportunity for him to flourish, which is why you
21:52
Speaker 3: or a big part I guess of why you brought
21:53
Speaker 3: him into your life. But at the same time, there's
21:58
Speaker 3: you as well, like you'll, I mean, you know, you're
22:04
Speaker 3: a baby yourself, kind of trying to figure out your
22:07
Speaker 3: own shit, right, trying not to have a meltdown. And
22:11
Speaker 3: then how do you not let his trauma become your trauma?
22:16
Speaker 1: How do you keep how do you keep it together?
22:21
Speaker 2: I had none of those skills at that time, Craig,
22:24
Speaker 2: As you say, I was a baby. This was my
22:27
Speaker 2: initiation into all of this. I didn't know what I
22:30
Speaker 2: was doing.
22:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was.
22:34
Speaker 2: How I learned all of this. I went into this
22:37
Speaker 2: experience Craig feeling. I think. I think I am assuming
22:42
Speaker 2: like a lot of twenty year olds do, right, Like, oh, okay,
22:47
Speaker 2: you know, I've got these big dreams and plans for
22:49
Speaker 2: my life, not realizing like how life actually goes, not
22:53
Speaker 2: according to your plans, and and so then to come
22:57
Speaker 2: face to face with this kind of experience it was
23:01
Speaker 2: I mean, it was my wake up call that made
23:05
Speaker 2: me become a different person. Now I could have chosen
23:08
Speaker 2: a different path. I chose to go on my own
23:12
Speaker 2: healing journey and to look at my shit. But I
23:15
Speaker 2: could have chose not to. And I know that a
23:17
Speaker 2: lot of parents choose not to, and that's okay too.
23:21
Speaker 2: But this experience definitely took me from someone who was
23:25
Speaker 2: a I would say, a professional perfectionist, a professional sure thrower,
23:32
Speaker 2: meaning I am going to, you know, lose myself and
23:36
Speaker 2: just take care of you and make sure that you're okay,
23:38
Speaker 2: to realizing actually and I know this may come as
23:42
Speaker 2: a shock to a lot of people for me to
23:44
Speaker 2: say this kind of thing, but I had to come
23:48
Speaker 2: to the place where I saw that in our relationship,
23:51
Speaker 2: me and him, he was not the most important one.
23:56
Speaker 2: The most important person in that relationship was me, because
24:00
Speaker 2: if I'm not okay, there's no chance that he has
24:05
Speaker 2: to be okay.
24:07
Speaker 1: Yeah I have my.
24:09
Speaker 2: Nervous system is not regulated. There is no way that
24:12
Speaker 2: his nervous system has any chance of becoming regulated because
24:16
Speaker 2: he needs me to be that anchor for him.
24:21
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the ironies of prioritizing you.
24:27
Speaker 3: It seems selfish, it's actually really quite it's quite aware
24:31
Speaker 3: and quite evolved thinking. Because if every day you start
24:35
Speaker 3: and your physically, mentally emotionally you're a three out of ten, Well,
24:41
Speaker 3: you can't be a great mum, you can't be a
24:42
Speaker 3: great listener, you can't be a great problem solve it
24:45
Speaker 3: definitely can't be a great doctor, you know. So this
24:49
Speaker 3: I always say, it's nice to be nice, but it's
24:51
Speaker 3: not nice to be a doormat, right, and so looking
24:55
Speaker 3: after you to be kind and compassionate to yourself first. Yeah,
25:01
Speaker 3: I think that too, Like personally, like I've got really
25:06
Speaker 3: old parents, who are you know, there's a few challenges
25:08
Speaker 3: and I deal with a lot of people and I
25:10
Speaker 3: talk to a lot of people, a lot of people
25:13
Speaker 3: every week who have got like way bigger problems and
25:16
Speaker 3: issues than me. My life's great. I'm very lucky. I
25:19
Speaker 3: really don't have any you know, so I'm very grateful.
25:21
Speaker 3: But I'm also aware that I need to I need
25:25
Speaker 3: to be in good shape and I buy that. I
25:28
Speaker 3: mean primarily mentally and emotionally, so that I can be
25:32
Speaker 3: in a place to do what I do hopefully as
25:37
Speaker 3: well as you know, my ability allows, you know, even
25:40
Speaker 3: on a podcast, which is obviously really informal, but at
25:44
Speaker 3: the same time, I've done nearly two thousand and every time.
25:48
Speaker 3: My goal is that this is the best podcast I've
25:51
Speaker 3: ever done. This is the best chat we've ever had.
25:53
Speaker 3: This is something that people want to listen to and
25:56
Speaker 3: tell people about and share. And not for my numbers
25:59
Speaker 3: and not for my ego, but because it's valuable for people,
26:02
Speaker 3: you know, so that people go, fuck, did you listen
26:04
Speaker 3: to doctor Amy? You've got to listen to this, You've
26:07
Speaker 3: got to like that's but you can't be that best
26:12
Speaker 3: version of you without.
26:13
Speaker 1: Prioritizing you to some extent.
26:17
Speaker 3: I want to ask, what, what is something that you
26:24
Speaker 3: know about you? I'm talking about self awareness now, something
26:28
Speaker 3: that you know and understand about you really clearly that
26:31
Speaker 3: you had no idea of when you're in this starting
26:35
Speaker 3: this journey, where do I start.
26:41
Speaker 2: It's a long It's a long list. And that's why
26:45
Speaker 2: that's why it was actually so hard for me to
26:47
Speaker 2: write this book that I wrote, because it was taking
26:51
Speaker 2: everything that I've learned and how do I present it
26:55
Speaker 2: in a way that it makes sense to someone else,
26:58
Speaker 2: Because for me, Craig was literally learning the manual for
27:04
Speaker 2: my body. Yes, and even as I say that, I
27:09
Speaker 2: know the irony of that, because here I had gone
27:12
Speaker 2: to medical school. My bachelor's degree is in cell biology,
27:18
Speaker 2: I went through residency, and yet I got to the
27:21
Speaker 2: end of that and I still really truly did not
27:24
Speaker 2: understand how my nervous system works. What had been trauma
27:29
Speaker 2: for me in my life and not just a stress
27:32
Speaker 2: like I had said it was, and my nervous system
27:36
Speaker 2: helps me survive life, navigate grief and loss, overcome my
27:43
Speaker 2: childhood dynamics. I didn't know any of this, even as
27:48
Speaker 2: a physician. And so for me to actually be able
27:52
Speaker 2: to understand the three states of my nervous system, be
27:55
Speaker 2: able to know which state am I end in any
27:58
Speaker 2: given moment, what does my body then in order to
28:02
Speaker 2: feel safe enough so that it doesn't continue to go
28:05
Speaker 2: into those survival patterns and recreate the stories that I
28:10
Speaker 2: don't want to be re enacting. I mean, just having
28:14
Speaker 2: the manual from my human body has been the biggest
28:18
Speaker 2: change in my life.
28:20
Speaker 3: Wow, do you feel like, Okay, I'm going to say
28:26
Speaker 3: what I feel, and then I want to know whether
28:28
Speaker 3: or not that aligns with you.
28:29
Speaker 1: I feel like over the years that.
28:31
Speaker 3: We've become more and more disconnected from our body for
28:34
Speaker 3: a range of reasons. I feel like our body, of course,
28:37
Speaker 3: is its own wisdom. You know, it's always speaking to
28:40
Speaker 3: us by feedback. You know, like it's brilliant, it's telling
28:44
Speaker 3: me something, but I'm ignoring it, or I'm taking a
28:47
Speaker 3: drug to alleviate the symptom that's like a strong message
28:52
Speaker 3: about or whatever. And I feel like, we know the
28:56
Speaker 3: average person knows more about their iPhone than they do
28:59
Speaker 3: about their body.
29:01
Speaker 1: I think that's a problem, Right, It is a problem.
29:04
Speaker 2: And yet I would also say it's not really our fault.
29:07
Speaker 2: I mean, who's given us the app that comes with
29:10
Speaker 2: a manual? Right? We get that when we order something
29:13
Speaker 2: from Amazon, here's your product, here's your manual for how
29:16
Speaker 2: to use it. We never got that with our body.
29:19
Speaker 2: And even as I look at our educational system, we
29:23
Speaker 2: do not do our education in a way that aligns
29:28
Speaker 2: with how the nervous system needs to experience life to
29:33
Speaker 2: move to process what we're learning. So our whole society
29:41
Speaker 2: is still promoting a sense of disconnection that only feeds
29:47
Speaker 2: itself and becomes worse with time.
29:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, how do we then build a relationship with our
29:53
Speaker 3: body built around writer awareness and empathy and understanding so
29:58
Speaker 3: that we can I might better decision, self regulate, more
30:02
Speaker 3: effectively navigate life with this like increased connectivity with our body,
30:11
Speaker 3: That's the question.
30:12
Speaker 2: I remember that I had a patient and her name
30:15
Speaker 2: was Elena, and she developed automunity one year after a
30:20
Speaker 2: car accident.
30:22
Speaker 1: Yeah.
30:23
Speaker 2: I remember the first conversation that I had with her,
30:26
Speaker 2: and she was thinking that there was no relationship of
30:30
Speaker 2: her automunity diagnosis with anything else in her life. Yes,
30:35
Speaker 2: it came out of the blue for her, and so
30:39
Speaker 2: as I just started asking her some simple questions around
30:44
Speaker 2: what happened in your childhood? What was a time in
30:48
Speaker 2: your childhood where you didn't want to be alive, you
30:54
Speaker 2: didn't want your reality? Yeah, And I remember the the
31:00
Speaker 2: action that her body gave me. It was this horrified
31:04
Speaker 2: pulling back. I don't even want to think about that. Yeah,
31:09
Speaker 2: but that's how it shows up for a lot of people.
31:11
Speaker 2: Is there's pain that's so buried. I don't want to
31:16
Speaker 2: look at that. And so why would I want to
31:19
Speaker 2: connect with my body? I intentionally don't want to feel
31:24
Speaker 2: and connect. And I didn't think much of it until
31:27
Speaker 2: I moved all the way into my addiction medicine practice,
31:30
Speaker 2: and this was where it came all full to the head.
31:33
Speaker 2: Where I'm working with a patient and I'm trying to
31:36
Speaker 2: detox them off of a substance. And Craig, what they're
31:39
Speaker 2: telling me is, but my substance use isn't the problem.
31:46
Speaker 2: I only use the substance because I don't like to feel.
31:51
Speaker 2: I don't like to feel my body. My body has
31:54
Speaker 2: been through horrible things. My body isn't pain pain and
32:00
Speaker 2: emotional pain. Why tell me again? Why no, no, no, doc.
32:05
Speaker 2: I want to stay on my substance. I just don't
32:08
Speaker 2: want it to ruin my life anymore. But I don't
32:10
Speaker 2: want to get off my substance. And so Craig, like,
32:14
Speaker 2: this is what I started to see as a physician.
32:17
Speaker 2: Everyone is living disconnected, and how do I take that individual,
32:21
Speaker 2: whether it's Elena and her automunity, or whether it's a
32:24
Speaker 2: patient who's addicted and dependent on substances to not feel
32:30
Speaker 2: and be able to tell them no, no, no, no, feeling
32:32
Speaker 2: is safe. No no, no, connect with your body, because
32:36
Speaker 2: they are literally telling me, oh no, that is the
32:40
Speaker 2: last thing that I want to do, and I do
32:42
Speaker 2: these things in order to not connect and feel. So
32:46
Speaker 2: that was when I realized, I've got to change my game,
32:49
Speaker 2: because if I'm just telling them, oh, you need to
32:52
Speaker 2: do this mind body connection thing, They're not going to
32:55
Speaker 2: do it and they're not going to get better. So
32:57
Speaker 2: I actually had to break things down and creates such
33:00
Speaker 2: a simple first step that even they would be successful
33:05
Speaker 2: at it. And here's what I learned, Craig. For them,
33:09
Speaker 2: it's not safe to feel safe.
33:15
Speaker 1: What's that mean?
33:17
Speaker 2: It means that when they if they were to really
33:19
Speaker 2: feel safe, they would relax.
33:22
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, if they.
33:24
Speaker 2: Relax, their guard comes down. If they relax, their defenses soften,
33:32
Speaker 2: and for them, that means I'm going to feel and
33:36
Speaker 2: that is not safe. So they had built their whole
33:40
Speaker 2: life around not allowing themselves to truly feel safe, relax
33:48
Speaker 2: and connect with themselves. And so I had to create
33:53
Speaker 2: that first step of connecting with their body to be
33:56
Speaker 2: so small you're going to probably laugh at this, and
33:58
Speaker 2: that's fine. I called it microdosing safety.
34:03
Speaker 1: Yeah.
34:04
Speaker 2: I had to give them such a small dose of
34:07
Speaker 2: feeling safe to connect that they weren't scared of it,
34:11
Speaker 2: and that they would do it again on their own
34:14
Speaker 2: to practice building those neural pathways. So I would give
34:18
Speaker 2: them homework because if you're only going to do it
34:21
Speaker 2: with me, that's not going to be enough. I need
34:23
Speaker 2: you doing this every single day to build those new
34:26
Speaker 2: neural pathways that tell yourself it is now safe to
34:31
Speaker 2: connect with my body. But we had to start with
34:33
Speaker 2: micro moments, microdoses of ten seconds of actually just connecting
34:39
Speaker 2: with your body. Ten seconds was sometimes all that they
34:42
Speaker 2: could handle. I would have them feel their heart beat.
34:45
Speaker 2: Just notice your heart beat, Notice your heart working hard
34:50
Speaker 2: to keep you alive, and they'd notice it. And then
34:53
Speaker 2: about five six, seven seconds in, they're getting uncomfortable because
34:56
Speaker 2: they're actually pausing and feeling and so we need to
35:00
Speaker 2: the rut attention. Okay, and now let's talk about the
35:02
Speaker 2: weather again. Now let's talk about the project you have
35:06
Speaker 2: going on, because more time just feeling their body was
35:11
Speaker 2: not something they could tolerate at the beginning. This is
35:15
Speaker 2: how much we have become a disconnected society.
35:19
Speaker 3: And the interesting Wow, that firstly, well done, that's amazing.
35:23
Speaker 3: But what is interesting is a bunch of things. One,
35:26
Speaker 3: so you can put a drug in your body that's
35:28
Speaker 3: going to change your physiology, right, you can also have
35:32
Speaker 3: another thought that'll change your physiology. You can also go
35:35
Speaker 3: do something that'll change your biochemistry and physiology. Right. It's
35:39
Speaker 3: like we can create all of these internal responses by
35:45
Speaker 3: doing a range of things that you know can can
35:48
Speaker 3: change the biochemistry of our brain, from taking a drug
35:51
Speaker 3: tube for me, riding a motorbike to someone lying on
35:54
Speaker 3: the floor with a Golden retriever just freaking out, you know,
35:57
Speaker 3: having fun for somebody else, a hot shower for somebody else,
36:01
Speaker 3: as cigarette and a cup of coffee in the morning,
36:03
Speaker 3: looking at the sun.
36:04
Speaker 1: Right.
36:06
Speaker 3: But also that I guess the complexity of this is
36:11
Speaker 3: that what you'll do with John won't work with Jack
36:14
Speaker 3: the exact same protocol.
36:16
Speaker 1: It'd be brilliant for Jane. You need to do a
36:18
Speaker 1: little bit less for Dolly and a bit more.
36:21
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, it's like there's no single
36:24
Speaker 3: protocol even though they might have the same symptoms or
36:27
Speaker 3: similar or the same issue or the same what we
36:30
Speaker 3: might call sickness, that there is no three step plan
36:35
Speaker 3: that you universally is or is as universally effective for
36:39
Speaker 3: every individual. So you've got to figure that out in
36:42
Speaker 3: real time and go, let's open this door. No, fuck
36:46
Speaker 3: that door, shut that door, Let's try this. Okay, this
36:50
Speaker 3: is a better door. Right, that's really problem solving one
36:54
Speaker 3: oh one in real time. And that's like that that
37:00
Speaker 3: is the hardest but probably the most effective in inverticoma's medicine.
37:06
Speaker 2: And this circles us back to how you started this podcast, Craig,
37:10
Speaker 2: which was asking, I'm seeing that there's a lot of
37:13
Speaker 2: therapy and treatment protocols that aren't really effective. And this
37:17
Speaker 2: is why, because they're a protocol, they're not actually personalized.
37:22
Speaker 2: And I'm liking it to going into the gym, Jane
37:26
Speaker 2: is walking into the gym, Jack and John are walking
37:28
Speaker 2: into the gym. They're all walking into the gym at
37:30
Speaker 2: the same time. Are they all going to be lifting
37:33
Speaker 2: the same weight? Well, no, because for one thing, John
37:38
Speaker 2: is you know, hasn't taken care of himself. He's walking
37:41
Speaker 2: in the gym and hasn't been in any exercise regimen
37:44
Speaker 2: for thirty years, so his tolerance is really small. You're
37:47
Speaker 2: not going to start him with something so heavy that
37:50
Speaker 2: he's going to break. His body's going to break. But
37:53
Speaker 2: you know Joe, well, he's been walking into the same
37:56
Speaker 2: gem through the last thirty years. So if you gave
37:59
Speaker 2: him the same weight as Jane, he's going to be like,
38:03
Speaker 2: why am I even here? This isn't doing me any good,
38:06
Speaker 2: This isn't growing my muscles, this isn't even helping me
38:11
Speaker 2: have a better day, Like this is nothing for me,
38:15
Speaker 2: and so it really does need to be personalized. But
38:18
Speaker 2: here's the thing. Most practitioners don't have the integration of
38:22
Speaker 2: the skills to be able to personalize it. They only
38:25
Speaker 2: have one tool. They only got trained in CBT. So yeah,
38:29
Speaker 2: that's what you're going to get. But what if you're
38:32
Speaker 2: that person where the mind is not the entry point
38:36
Speaker 2: for you, your entry point is actually the body, or maybe
38:40
Speaker 2: your entry point is more the biology. But if they
38:43
Speaker 2: don't have those tools, then maybe they don't even have
38:46
Speaker 2: They don't even have that knowledge to know that these
38:50
Speaker 2: are other entry points and that you should go to
38:52
Speaker 2: see someone first who has this skill set. You're getting
38:56
Speaker 2: the protocol.
38:58
Speaker 1: That's not love that for you. You know the.
39:02
Speaker 3: Analogy to that or the comparison to that. From my background, right,
39:06
Speaker 3: so I grew up in gyms and all of that
39:08
Speaker 3: exercise science, all that stuff and just f y I
39:13
Speaker 3: kind of I set up the first personal training facility
39:16
Speaker 3: in Australia thirty five years ago. So I was in
39:18
Speaker 3: on the ground floor, very lucky, lots of fun. But
39:24
Speaker 3: if you even still most gyms, you're going if you
39:28
Speaker 3: see a trainer, whatever the trainer does. If the trainer
39:31
Speaker 3: is a bodybuilder, then he or she will train most
39:35
Speaker 3: of their clients like bodybuilders.
39:37
Speaker 1: If there are.
39:39
Speaker 3: If they're a functional practitioner, they do they do all
39:42
Speaker 3: you know function then everyone's going to do functional training, right,
39:46
Speaker 3: which I'm not saying any of they is good or bad. Right,
39:48
Speaker 3: Or if they're an endurance athlete, then everyone's fucking running
39:51
Speaker 3: and riding and doing interval sprints.
39:53
Speaker 1: And you know, it's like.
39:55
Speaker 3: They they train people the way they train themselves because
40:00
Speaker 3: they essentially live in an echo chamber of thought and
40:03
Speaker 3: behavior and protocol and now it doesn't matter what your
40:06
Speaker 3: actual personal needs are.
40:08
Speaker 1: You're on the bench press chap, you know.
40:13
Speaker 2: And so people ask me, well, you know, does emd
40:16
Speaker 2: R work, does horse therapy work? And I'm like, depends
40:21
Speaker 2: on what you're trying to accomplish. But I will be
40:25
Speaker 2: you exactly. I will tell you that if you really
40:28
Speaker 2: want to make the most change, yeah, the fastest, the
40:33
Speaker 2: biggest bang for your buck, Yeah, you're going to want
40:37
Speaker 2: to seek out the integration of pieces all simultaneously, so
40:44
Speaker 2: that you're working at the level of your mind, your thoughts,
40:47
Speaker 2: your beliefs, and you're working with your body and the movement,
40:52
Speaker 2: that expression of emotions, the connection with your body, and
40:56
Speaker 2: the biology, the oxidative stress, the mitochondria, the inflammation. And
41:01
Speaker 2: when you're working on all of those levels at the
41:03
Speaker 2: same time, yes, you can make bigger changes happen because
41:09
Speaker 2: they compound each other. They're synergistic. Yeah, Whereas if you
41:13
Speaker 2: only try to do one thing, you're trying only one
41:17
Speaker 2: thing and it's going to take a lot more effort
41:20
Speaker 2: to create the same change with just one thing than
41:23
Speaker 2: if you can address all the levels that have been
41:25
Speaker 2: impacted and all the levels that need a shift and
41:29
Speaker 2: repair and change.
41:32
Speaker 1: Here's one of the problems though.
41:33
Speaker 3: Doc People's identity becomes intertwined with the thing that they do,
41:39
Speaker 3: so they become resistant to any idea or any protocol,
41:43
Speaker 3: or any philosophy or ideology that isn't their you know,
41:47
Speaker 3: so fuck you and all your weird integrative ideas.
41:50
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?
41:52
Speaker 3: It's like, what I do, this is what I do? Well,
41:57
Speaker 3: what if that's cool? But what if that's not the
42:00
Speaker 3: best approach?
42:02
Speaker 2: And what if that were even a trauma response?
42:05
Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, Oh, that's so interesting.
42:09
Speaker 2: I think that the practitioner of the future is going
42:16
Speaker 2: to be one who is integrative and holistic, because they
42:21
Speaker 2: are the ones who are going to be able to
42:23
Speaker 2: actually meet a person where they are and be able
42:26
Speaker 2: to see what is the best entry point. What is
42:29
Speaker 2: your microdosing of safety that we need to start with.
42:32
Speaker 2: Are you a five second microdose? Are you able to
42:35
Speaker 2: tolerate thirty seconds? But if we're not being precise with
42:40
Speaker 2: our tools, Craig, we're not going to be able to
42:43
Speaker 2: create the change that is possible.
42:47
Speaker 1: I love it micro docing safety.
42:49
Speaker 3: I'm writing this down. This is the name of that
42:53
Speaker 3: I tell everyone about your book what's the cold?
42:56
Speaker 1: What's it about? Where can I get it? I am
43:00
Speaker 1: what fining about this? Plug the shit out of that.
43:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am so excited that I wrote a book
43:06
Speaker 2: for one thing. This has been something that's been on
43:08
Speaker 2: my heart in my mind forever. And the process was
43:13
Speaker 2: more than what I thought it would be. I thought
43:15
Speaker 2: it would be easy, because I mean, I do this
43:17
Speaker 2: stuff in my sleep now, But to actually sit down
43:20
Speaker 2: and say, if I were sitting across from Craig, how
43:23
Speaker 2: would I walk him through this? Where would I even start?
43:27
Speaker 2: So I just started. I decided to start the book
43:30
Speaker 2: with Elena's story and her car accident and her in
43:34
Speaker 2: the middle of the car accident, and then walk people
43:36
Speaker 2: through how the body experiences a trauma, the inner experience
43:41
Speaker 2: of that, like the inner physiology, so that they are
43:43
Speaker 2: clear from chapter one, what is the difference between a
43:48
Speaker 2: trauma and a stress on the body?
43:50
Speaker 1: Yes?
43:51
Speaker 2: Yes, From there we build on that foundation, and now
43:55
Speaker 2: I can talk to you about, well, why does the
43:57
Speaker 2: body hold on to that trauma response? Why does it
43:59
Speaker 2: not just get over it or move on like we
44:02
Speaker 2: would all like to be able to do. And then
44:05
Speaker 2: the last sestion of the book is all of this
44:07
Speaker 2: repair and the integration of the pieces and how to
44:10
Speaker 2: do that integration so that people have that sense in
44:13
Speaker 2: the roadmap for this is what I'm looking at, and
44:16
Speaker 2: they can have success where maybe they have been stuck.
44:18
Speaker 2: So this is a big deal for me to put
44:21
Speaker 2: out this book on the biology of trauma. But this
44:24
Speaker 2: is really for me a message of hope that once
44:27
Speaker 2: we understand the science, there are so many leverage points
44:32
Speaker 2: that are unveiled for how we can make a difference
44:35
Speaker 2: and create a better tomorrow for ourselves.
44:38
Speaker 3: Well, congrats, congrats on the book. I know it is.
44:41
Speaker 3: I've written a few books. It's the idea of writting
44:44
Speaker 3: a book and the practical reality of writing a book,
44:46
Speaker 3: and on all what do we put on the cover?
44:48
Speaker 1: What do we call it? How do we distribute it?
44:50
Speaker 1: What do I self published? Do I get publisher? How
44:52
Speaker 1: do I promote it? What about the marketing? Look, feel
44:55
Speaker 1: what's on the back cover?
44:56
Speaker 3: Like, there's so many things that like the actual raw
45:00
Speaker 3: of the book, it's not easy, but it's only one
45:02
Speaker 3: of fifty seven variables and factors. Like who knew there
45:06
Speaker 3: was so much shit that goes into getting a book
45:09
Speaker 3: onto a shelf.
45:11
Speaker 1: I didn't know.
45:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, but yeah, the process of writing and then
45:17
Speaker 2: the process of launching are two very different things.
45:21
Speaker 3: Hi, Doc, it's been great to talk to you. You're fantastic.
45:24
Speaker 3: I'd love to talk to you again at some stage
45:26
Speaker 3: if you're avilable. Tell people how to find you, follow you,
45:30
Speaker 3: connect with you, all that stuff if you're interested.
45:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, I just thank you for your work,
45:37
Speaker 2: like you are someone that I looked up to. You
45:39
Speaker 2: have been so consistent about providing quality, value content and education.
45:44
Speaker 2: So you're a hero of mine. In my book, so
45:47
Speaker 2: people can find me a Biology of Trauma dot com.
45:50
Speaker 2: They'll find the book web page, they'll find some resources
45:54
Speaker 2: that I have for them to download with the book
45:56
Speaker 2: for them to help integrate some of the pieces, the concepts,
45:59
Speaker 2: the frame work, and they can find more about me.
46:03
Speaker 2: And that's all on Biologyoftrauma dot com.
46:08
Speaker 3: Amazing Doctor Amy will say goodbye off air in a moment,
46:11
Speaker 3: but for now on behalf of the team and I
46:14
Speaker 3: you're great.
46:14
Speaker 1: Thanks for being part of the You project.
46:17
Speaker 2: Thank you