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Dealing With Church Hurt: How Can Youth Pastors Help Those Navigating It? · Ministry Coach: Youth Ministry Tips & Resources

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: How can we as youth pastors help people navigate their church earth?
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we're talking about today on the Ministry Coach Podcast.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Ministry Coach Podcast, where we bring you weekly tips and tactics to help you fast track the growth and health of your youth ministry.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Jeff Lascola, and this is Kristen Lascola.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: And today's episode is brought to you by one of our listeners, actually, named Kara Daniel.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: She wrote in a couple of episode ideas and they were really good.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: So we're going to do one of them today.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you might not know that as a listener, that you can.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: You can email us.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: If you are like, I wish they'd really talk about this.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: We we really wish you would email in because it's what you want answers to, is what makes a great episode.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, agreed.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: So where can they email some ideas?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Glad you asked that question, Kristen.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can email us at ministrycoachpodcast at gmail.com or you can message us at Instagram, DM us, you know, whatever, and we should get those messages.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So um she had a great idea for how to minister to people with church hurt.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: And this is probably one of the saddest scenarios, you know, because I think as pastors, ministers, youth workers, whatever, we always just know that the world will hurt you.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, of course, like things happen and relationships break down and there's sickness and, you know, loss of a family member, loss of a job, and we see our families going through difficult times.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: But then to think it was caused by the church itself, where this is supposed to be the peep the place that people find healing and refuge and love.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: And when they find the opposite there, when that's the source of the hurt, it is just to me, just like uh extra helping of pain.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so sad.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: And people aren't perfect.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And church hurt, the term is kind of loose because that could be a myriad of things.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like it could be hardcore, like there was scandal, there was abuse, there was something, you know, that maybe somebody's actually been like arrested, you know, for something that happened.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: But then there's church hurt too.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: That is maybe a group of people, like it wasn't the church entity itself, but it was like a group of people at church who hurt you.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like there was a click that left you out, or there was someone who gossiped about you.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that is like people hurt, not necessarily church hurt, church people hurt, whatever.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: But there is varying degrees of like, what does this mean?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: And when people come through your doors and they're new to your church, when you start talking, you might pick up on wow, you have like a traumatic experience from a previous church, or you have hurt from people at your previous church, and neither one is wrong, it's just might might gauge the intensity.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Both of them are wrong.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, not wrong to feel hurt.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: I know you're that's what I meant.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for clarifying that.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: Not wrong to feel hurt, but the way that we deal with it and the intensity of that might, you know, vary a little bit.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: So the first thing any good pastor or ministry lead or anyone who's trying to reach somebody who's just hurt in general is number one, be a good listener.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to have advice, you don't have to solve a problem.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: You just need to listen.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I've just learned over the years that even when people come to me for an answer, I feel like 10% of the time they actually want an answer.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: 90% of the time they just want to talk it out.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because then I'll be like, oh gosh, they came to me and they asked a question.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: They need advice.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Here I go.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then I find that they usually take the ball back and want to do most of the talking themselves.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I used to be so confused by that.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why, why did you ask me?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't help you at all.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: But just having a safe space to talk and process it with someone who listens and is an empathetic listener actually is a very healing process for them.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like just to be able to say this stuff out loud to another human who cares.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so just being super compassionate when they want to talk and not defensive.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: So saying things like, I'm so sorry that happened, is you know, a compassionate response.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then validating those feelings.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, like, no matter what the source of the hurt was, it's not really up to us to see if that was valid or not.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: It won't make a difference, you know.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Say deep down, you're like, what?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: That makes no sense.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: You weren't there, who knows?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that doesn't matter, anyways.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: So you just validate how they feel of like, yeah, like I'm so sorry you feel that way, or I don't blame you for feeling that way, or wow, tell me more about that, and just let them talk as much as they want, you know, and you don't want to overdo the questions if they're some people, and this is where you really need the Holy Spirit to kind of guide of like sometimes too many questions are painful, and sometimes not enough questions are painful.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like, well, you didn't care, you didn't ask, you know, somebody was going through a hard time recently at our church, and I could tell something was wrong.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so I finally asked, and they were like, Whoa, you're the first person who's actually asked, and they wanted to talk about it.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: But if you sense like, I'm fine, like, you know, and they're like almost offended, then just let it go.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: And but being available to be a compassionate and empathetic listener who doesn't need to fix it, solve it, or talk you out of your pain, but just I'm here to process, I'm here to listen.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Can too many questions even come across as like an interrogation?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it depends how you ask and what you're asking as well.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think some people do take that as a little bit like, whoa.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I feel like most people err on the other side of like nobody cared, nobody asked.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is more of a common scenario than guy, third degree.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, most people have enough EQ.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's a few in there that probably don't know boundaries of questions, but I find in general, general, most people have enough EQ to but questions that show interest or compassion or like availability on your part to keep going if they want, but you can tell pretty quick if someone's giving you really short answers or somebody is not wanting to talk much about it.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And secondly, take it slow.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: So if somebody has church hurt, you know, from a, you know, I keep framing it like it's a previous church.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: I guess it could be in the church that you're at as well.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: And just take it slow with them.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: This kind of applies more to like a new person at your church, but I would say don't push giving or serving right off the bat.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would say there is a time in someone's faith journey where, like, we always talk about like be a contributor, not a consumer.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there really is a time in some people's faith journey where they need to just be a consumer, like they don't need to be giving right now.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then let the Holy Spirit kind of lead them when it's time, but they need to just be taken care of.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we call the church a hospital, and we usually put that in the sense of like spiritually, like when Jesus says it's not the healthy that need a doctor, it's the sick.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think Jesus meant spiritually sick.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think we can also say, like, the church can be a hospital for, you know, the emotionally sick, you know, and I just need to be taken care of by my church family right now.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think that would fit, you know, in that definition as well.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so just allowing people space and permission to just you just come and we will take care of you right now.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: So not pushing their involvement and then giving opportunity for community, but not pushing it until they're ready.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: Just like, hey, there's a Bible study Wednesday nights, of course, you're welcome or invited, or you know, like so that they know, but not hounding them to sign up for like, well, you gotta join a Bible study, you gotta join a life group, gotta join a small group.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like it might not be time for them, but just knowing that that's available, community, small group, but you just might not be ready for that.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it's hard to pinpoint, like, because what is the hurt?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know what I mean?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: But these are, you know, more generality.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, and then number three, it's incredibly important to be who you say you are.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: And this goes far beyond church hurt, but we build trust with people that are hurt, and just in general, you don't just like, oh, you're the hurt person, so I'm gonna make sure I'm on my best behavior.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, in general, this is how we one way we prevent it is we be who we say we're gonna be.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: We do what we say we're gonna do.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we don't overpromise and underdeliver to people, and we build that trust by doing what we say we're gonna do.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you say, Hey, I'm gonna follow up with you in a couple of weeks, really do it.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: If I say I'm gonna pray for you, really do it.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: If I say like I'm gonna get you a resource of a counselor or something like that, really deliver on that.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think people with church hurt especially need us to be reliable, need us to be people who follow through on what we say and not just be another, oh yeah, like I got lost in the crowd and you eventually kind of forgot about me.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: But like when that's happening, like whatever you've committed to, like I'm gonna, hey, we need to go to coffee and talk about this, or I'd love to take you out and you know, pray for you, whatever you've committed to.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: Don't it's it's easy in that moment with a hurting person.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: You want to promise the world.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: You want to say, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna, you know, you want them to feel that comfort.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: However, if you don't follow through on it, then we're sort of right back where we started.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because like building it, building that trust is like any kind of like construction, it's like, how long does it take to build a house?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, six months, something like that.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Slow process.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Each phase goes along.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: But demoing a house, demolishing a house, that's a day.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like in an instant.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like you're slowly building that trust, but you can destroy it in a moment.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Good point.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: And when people are already kind of emotionally vulnerable, they're, you know, we've all been in that position before.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: You're very sensitive to that.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you don't want to be let down again, you know, and it's not like, okay, so be perfect now.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: Don't ever let anyone down, but just be cautious of like, am I acting like I'm gonna be there for you?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I remember one time I was going through a really hard time and somebody had reached out to me and I kind of like poured my heart out, and then it was cricket.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: To this day, they never wrote back.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: You really offended them.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: I was just saying, like, they had texted to check in, like when my mom passed away.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I kind of was vulnerable and like texted them back and told them how I was feeling and how Christmas is really hard for me and blah, blah, blah.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then they just kind of never wrote back.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, okay, I assume because you're so busy praying for me, all right.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Still, yeah.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I can rise above that.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's like they probably got busy and forgot and had no intention of hurting me.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: But if I was a vulnerable person who was just like so untrusting of the church, I would find that as C one more thing, right?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like it just depends on how fragile you are in that moment.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, just being careful that we're not adding to this by saying, Yes, I'm gonna be there and text you and take you out and pray for you and pray over you and get you plugged in and get you this resource, and then well, where'd you go?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: You got busy, like nice, right?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then use wisdom to gauge their desire and pace for relationship.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: So some people with church hurt really just want space.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I remember there was this woman who was going through a really hard time, and I was kind of trying to be consoling and encouraging, and she was like mad, like, because the thing she did not want to happen happened, and I was just trying to be encouraging.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, I don't want to talk about it.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't, and I'm like, Yeah, valid, that's fine.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: So gauge that, like, she wasn't mean to me, but she was firm of like, I can't talk about this right now.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was just sensing, oh, you really need space, so that's okay.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you're giving me that signal, I'll pray for you from afar, you know, and then maybe try again later on or write you a card or something that's very distant so that you can do with it what you want.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, someone told me recently they weren't ready to talk about something, an area of pain in their life.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's totally fine.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then I said, Well, what you can come can count on is me praying for you.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: So if you don't, if if this is too tender of a time, you know, hurt-wise, guess what?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's valid, and I'll just be over here praying, and that's how I'll partner with you in this season.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, um, but some people don't want to be left alone, you know?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of like we have to gauge a little bit, like what are the signals people are sending us?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, all of this as I'm saying it, what keeps coming to mind is to be in ministry, you need to be incredibly emotionally intelligent.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: The less emotionally intelligent you are, the harder it is going to be to do ministry.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of this stuff, it's like, where tell me where the verses on church hurt.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can think of rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Be, you know, that's and that's not even specifying church hurt.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's just, you know, a life principle, like rejoice with the happy and be sad with the sad.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Don't try to pull someone out of their pain if they're right in the middle of it.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: Just be sit sit with them in it.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Other than that, I'm like, yeah, like where is this verse on church hurt?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I think it's just so important to be emotionally intelligent with the power of the Holy Spirit as well, to sort of care well for these people and gauge what each individual needs.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because some people might say, give them space, they just need time.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And some people might say, No way, don't leave me alone.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Sit next to me, like be with me, drive me to church.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to show up alone, like whatever.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and I've been in ministry 21 years and I've seen all of that.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen people who it's like, it's not gonna happen unless I physically go to your house, get you in my car, and we go together.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Other people like they don't even want to sit with their own family, they just need space, you know?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so or the people that all they want to do is talk about it and those who are like, that's the last thing I want to talk about.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: So just being emotionally intelligent.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess that all things to all people kind of thing.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's probably a stretch of that interpretation.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: But just like, what do you need now?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I'm gonna do.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna sit with you in the pain, I'm gonna listen to you through the pain, I'm gonna be there for you.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: But just you, you're gonna need to use wisdom there.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: And if it isn't the type of person who's like, please don't leave me alone, the more relationship, the better.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have time to take them to coffee and just listen to them?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe do something extra outside the church walls.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have time to invite them to dinner and just say, you know, I a while ago there was someone going through a really hard time, and we just went and had dinner one night during the week and just talked.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like they wanted to.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: That was the state they were in of like, I need someone to talk to about this and and the pain I'm going through.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then invite.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I think for someone going through church hurt feeling very included in church through personal invitations.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so, what I mean by that is we send out a lot of general invitations to people, like, hey, we're doing a barbecue after church, everyone's invited.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: However, someone going through church hurt might need a specific personal invitation.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, there's a barbecue after church, we're gonna be sitting at this table.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Will you join us?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because they're already a little bit vulnerable.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so showing up to things, being a part of community, they know it's a general invite, but they might need in the stage of grief they're in to have a personal invite and somebody waiting for them.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, hey, we have a row saved, sit with us, or we have a table saved, sit with us, or we're all carpooling, come with us.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like they just sort of need to be adopted in a little bit more instead of fending for themselves of like, well, you know where it is.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know what time it starts.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: In general, I feel like that's always a better invite, anyways, is like, come sit with me, come with me, versus, you know, if you're there, you know, say hi, or I'll see you at this day, or you know, whatever, but specifically saying, like, we'll save you a seat.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I better go.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and then you feel wanted, you know, like it's so nice when people think of you specifically and not just like, well, we're all here, but like, hey, I saved you a seat.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's no better feeling like when I'm going to an event and it's a big one, and I know a few people there, and someone will text me and say, I saved you a seat next to me.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh good.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Cause you know, I walk in and I don't have to be like, all right, gauge the situation, where do I go?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just feeling like I was thought of, I was planned for, I was wanted.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: There was intention behind it.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we do that for people going through church hurt, we show a lot of, again, that extra tenderness, that extra care where they need, you know, that space to heal.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's just easier to do when you've one less step of funding for yourself.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And this really, I mean, I think the tone that we're talking about, yes, do this, number one, number two.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: But the spirit of it and what I hope is coming through is that we're like we're protecting and we're caring for and we're like almost like nursing somebody back to health with like a little bit more extra tenderness and love and intentionality.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, should everybody get that?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: But the point is like they need that extra little scoop of of tenderness in everything and that intentionality.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then this is like something maybe we shouldn't have talked about in the beginning.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: But like, how do we protect people from church hurt and prevent it in the first place?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: I can't control what the church down the street is doing, but how within our own walls can we hope to prevent as much as possible?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you can't eradicate it, like I said, because some of it's not on the church level, it's like that group of people.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, all right, I can't regulate that group of people.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I think for church leadership, um, being a person of integrity, being honest, being um the kind of church leader that is the same person behind closed doors that you are in front of your congregation.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one thing I love about working at North Coast.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, obviously, you don't know everything about everyone, but the like I tell people all the time, like our pastors are the same off stage as they are on stage.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're literally the same person.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, as long as I've worked here, there's no nothing I'm like, oh, hopefully no one finds out this, you know.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: So being the kind of person that's like, yeah, go through, like, what if what if everything was on the table?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, obviously protecting individuals' privacy, but what if they went through the computers, went through the ledgers, went through the, you know, we're a fly on the wall on a meeting?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, would everyone be like, yeah, sweet?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'll still go to this church, or would it be like, oh my gosh, you know?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like you can only hold that kind of stuff in for so long, like, and then something like leaks out somehow, some way eventually.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I'm there'll be like individuals, but it's like, are we the kind of church that like it could be a glass house, like we have nothing to hide?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's I think one way we protect people from church hurt and caring for people very well as well.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you just sense something's not right, deal with it.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: If you're in church leadership, if something I think sometimes we can sweep things under the rug or protect certain people, but if we're full of if we're leadership that's full of integrity, we seek transparency, we seek accountability, and we deal with things that need to be dealt with in a biblical way, like obviously, but making sure we're not high like hiding anybody or hiding anything or hiding like oh, like protecting our own in a way that we shouldn't.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's the word I'm looking for.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: The classic, you know, where the cover up is sometimes worse than the crime itself.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: And when people fall from grace, how do we handle that?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: And being transparent of like, just because you're in leadership doesn't mean you're perfect, but okay, we deal with what we need to deal with though.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody is above like church discipline or like nobody gets nobody's secret sin gets protected, you know, and we hear those horror stories of other people knowing what's going on and then just kind of helping cover it up and protecting it for years and years and years and years.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where the most like egregious self or self-hurt church hurt comes from is those like really dark corners of places that people were willing to cover up for a really long time.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's important that we vet our leaders well.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, even with the greatest vetting system, people still do things.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: So vet your leaders as well as you can.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: And if you say see something, say something.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: If you see something that is concerning to you, hopefully you have a church environment that you can bring it up and not feel punished for it.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: But you're allowed to ask questions and express your concerns and they're taken seriously, you know.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: If you see something that doesn't seem right, you know, or that gives you that feeling of like, I don't know, this is something you might just need more information, you know.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you think like, why do we do this?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Is that right?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then you just ask a question and it all gets cleared up, or maybe it doesn't.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: But all that to say, yeah, no cover-ups, all fully transparent, all of that.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then just like a few final notes that I just kind of randomly was thinking about today is sometimes like people that are in a super vulnerable place with church hurt just might need some extra special privileges.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like maybe they need more time with you, maybe they need to sit with you instead of with the kids, maybe they want to visit a different class, or I don't know, just like I'm I hold the rules and regulations a little looser with them because I'm like, I just want you here.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, so like if you not bend the rules in a way of like you're allowed to do whatever you want, but it's like, oh, all the kids sit in those chairs during service, and this kid wants to sit with me in the back, like fine, you know, not the end of the world.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I try to like, okay, the the point is you need to be here, the point is you need to be in relationship, and the point is like we want you to heal.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: And if I'm just such a stickler for like, no, you must sit here, no, you must do that, when it doesn't really matter, you could say on one side, well, what if everybody did that?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, everyone's not going to, you know, and so I just try to be flexible and kind of like like there was one of our little sixth grade boys was just having a hard time the other day.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: And this isn't church hurt.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: He just was like, Will you sit in the back with me?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's I can't sit over there with my friends right now.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and I was like, sure, you know, and then 30 minutes later, he's like, I want to go sit with my friends.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, all right, bye.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad I was able to help, you know.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so I instead of saying, No, this is where the sixth grade boys are right now, and you need to go there, mister.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: I just was like, Okay, let me meet you where you're at.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need now?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's not hurting anyone or inconveniencing or threatening or causing, you know, major problems, why not?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just I'll be there for you.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I just try to use that lens through looking through even like church hurt of like, okay, I'm here.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's the best I can do.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Please don't make me, you know, there was a girl just having a really hard time, and it wasn't church hurt, it was more family hurt, but it was like instead of listening to the sermon, she just needed to talk the entire time about like, I'm I'm not okay, like there's some stuff going on.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so instead of saying, it is sermon time, Missy, be quiet, listen to whoever's teaching.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: I just was sat in the back of the room with her and we talked for 30 minutes and it was fantastic.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: And she was like, you know, I was saying in the beginning, like gauging, does this person want to talk?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: So if they do, you better pull up a chair and get comfortable because that is giving you a signal.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is part of my healing.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: I want to talk about this, I want to go there, I want to be honest.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're prying, you know, like and giving them the time to be able to do that too, not like, you know, oh well, I can't really, you know, not right now, and then never following back up at all.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but just giving them that engaged time, yes.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then lastly, you know, pray, duh, like pray for them, pray with them, pray over them, you know.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: I love doing that with a kid who's hurt in some way, and you know, just pray for that healing for them.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, can I just pray for you?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I think that means a whole lot too.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Cause here's the thing I'm not gonna heal a kid from church hurt, you know, I'm gonna do things that God has called me to do to be there for them, and God can use those actions as part of their healing.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: But we all know the true healing is always gonna come from the Holy Spirit.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: So just inviting God into that of like, you know, I can't, I can't take away what happened, I can't undo it.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: But God can heal like those broken places, those hurtful places.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna be praying for you, but I'd like to pray for you right now, like praying together and hearing them say those words.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: If you can't like maybe there's a situation where you can't pray for them in that moment, I've texted prayers to people before.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, here's because I think it's just something cool about instead of just saying I'm praying for you.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever heard someone pray for you or heard those actual words?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I kind of get choked up.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, whoa, like hearing the petition you're making on my behalf to God and like the words you're using kind of like got me rather than just I'm praying for you.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea what you said.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, or if you even said it.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: So if I couldn't be with that person the moment, like I'll text them here's what I said to God, you know, here is the prayer, you know, so that they can see and hear that and that.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: Is a huge ministry, I think, to the heart, especially a hurting heart.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, we've talked a lot about emotional intelligence in this episode.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not familiar with what that is, we actually did a whole episode with your sister many years ago on this podcast about leadership and emotional intelligence and how that can help you in your ministry and in your leadership.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure make sure you check that out.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's do a community comment of the day.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: This comes from Michael Milliard, who says, Thank you for this video.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Me and my wife just took over for the youth group in our church.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I had been discouraged because we were small, but this video has changed my mind completely and has encouraged me.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: God bless both of you.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Michael.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: This was this was the episode we did on how to make a smaller youth group feel much bigger.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm so glad.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yay.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad it was an encouragement, Michael, and thank you for the comment.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: We appreciate you.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we thank you guys for watching and listening.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll see you next time.