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The Rise of Christian Nationalism | Tim Whitaker, The New Evangelicals · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host, Leigh Larson. And ⁓ my goodness, do I have a special guest for you all today. Tim Whitaker, welcome to the studio. Tim Whitaker: Thank you, Lee. Thanks for having me. means a lot. And I'm so sorry that off air, I guessed your name wrong twice. I was like, is it Leah or, you know, or Lea you're like, it's Leah. I'm like, of course the one option I didn't suggest. So I apologize. I want your audience to know that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It's all good. Follow the leader and Lee. It's a play on words. Yes, absolutely. But blame my mother. That's five letters to a pronounced gang. ⁓ Tim Whitaker: Yes, yes, I love it. It's great. Thanks for having me. That's funny. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Folks, I really am humbled and touched that Tim Whitaker came to the studio today. He's the founder and the creative director of The New Evangelicals. He is an ex-evangelical faith believer. And he has developed over the last five years a ⁓ following that is not just deconstruction and pointing out the flaws online, which I feel like I do. constantly going after political officials, but. He's also created a community, a place for others to come and deconstruct, to find one another, answer the hard questions and lean into a new perspective on their faith. He's amassed quite a following, I mean, between all platforms, your podcast, ⁓ you also, your co-creator on your podcast is April Ajoy with her Star Spangled Banner. ⁓ So again, I want to thank you for coming to the studio for such a small creator when you're so big, you and Melinda Hill, who was on here a few weeks ago. Thank you. Tim Whitaker: Absolutely, every creator matters, especially in this war against Christian fascism. you know, I think that part of the capitalist mindset for us is that bigger is better or more is better. But honestly, I think qualified is the best. And considering that you have your masters in theology, voices like yours, credible voices are really needed now more than ever. absolutely happy to come on. I'm honored and ⁓ keep going. It's important work. Leigh/@followtheleighder: back at you. Folks, Tim comes from us out of New Jersey. And is that where you have been all your life? Are you a New Jersey boy? Tim Whitaker: ⁓ yeah. Yep. Born and raised. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, ⁓ folks, why I wanted Tim to come on today was A, to talk about the new evangelicals and their mission and to talk about deconstruction. But really we talk a lot about Christian nationalism in the United States at large, in the military, in all these different groups. And I was very curious to hear from a man who grew up in this. I wanted to hear about masculinity, about manhood, maleness. Why are people like Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth so appealing when so many of us are horrified? Tim Whitaker: Hmm. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ just kind of walk us through how you were raised, what was your faith like in your New Jersey community? Tim Whitaker: Hmm. Yeah, you know, ⁓ so New Jersey is a very liberal state overall, but I was still raised in a very conservative evangelical kind of world and bubble. I was homeschooled for nine years, went to a small private school where I graduated top five in my class out of six. So really stepping up there on the educational level. But yeah, I mean, just kind of grew up in this in this very insular. white evangelical bubble. And I think the masculinity part is really important because I don't think enough people understand ⁓ how you're kind of primed to, I'm not gonna say look up to guys like Trump, because you're not in the general sense, but you're definitely primed to become people like Pete Hegseth. And what I mean by that is not necessarily the abusive side or his alcoholism, not that, but the idea of like a man is ready for battle. A man takes on the armor of God fights for a beauty to rescue. know, there's a very infamous book in these spaces called Wild at Heart that every person I knew, including myself, every young boy and man read by guy named John Eldridge. And you know, the general thesis is that men are created to be out in the wild and that society is domesticating them. And look, I would say that like anything, you can find elements of truth to that. Like, hey, there is maybe some things that we can think about as a society, right? For sure. But it's tied into this idea of a man wants an adventure and a beauty to rescue and women don't want to be the adventure they want to be brought on an adventure. It's very like you know this like romanticizing of like life and grandiose-ness and so there are books like that that that you're reading you're reading books about about lust and the war for your for your heart when it comes to issues like that and you're also really into like battle imagery. This is reinforced in the songs that you sing. There's a song by Elevation Worship from back in the day that says, God's a mighty warrior. That kind of language is reinforced kind of everywhere you go. I mean, even as a ⁓ child, I learned the song that I'm in the Lord's army. You know, I can still sing it by heart, the whole thing. So this this image of battle and war, it's very normalized ⁓ in this particular expression of Christian thought. And men are kind of taught that they have to be in control. control of themselves that they can't give into lust that they have to you know be a man who is going to be the provider in the family a man who is ready to be courageous and take on the war of the world and so Trump in some ways blows that narrative away because he is ⁓ an adulterer, right? He isn't abuser. He's not in control. At the same time, evangelicalism has been looking for a strong man type person to stick it to the mainstream media and the libs, right? And so it wasn't that hard for white evangelicalism and the leaders in that movement, all of the pastors and stuff, to kind of rewrite and overlook some of those flaws by saying, well, Trump is the strong man that we all need. And maybe one other go I'll offer here then we can riff on it whatever you want and this part I think was really under reported Trump is popular with white evangelicals because Trump really is ⁓ like an embodied image of the kind of God that they worship The kind of God that evangelicalism worships is a God of vengeance, a God who will destroy all of his enemies, God who will put you in hell forever if you don't say the right words and go to the right team, a God who is harsh on people that this God doesn't like. And so it's not hard for me to see why there isn't a Lord here because they worship a very wrathful God, a God of wrath and judgment unless you're on the right team. And that's how Trump operates, right? As long as you're in Trump's good graces, can be great. The second you even critique Trump, right? It's wrath and judgment and you're kicked out. Same thing with the evangelical God. So there's a lot of connections in my opinion. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Wow. No, that is a great connection. Because I think about that too. I read Pamela Cooper White's The Psychology of Christian Nationalism, and it's why people are drawn in. Are you familiar with this book? you? OK, well, yeah, it's super cool. It looks into like, I'm sure it would probably be weird for someone like you to read it because you're like, these are exactly how we recruited people. Or you know what I mean? It's like, it's very like, you're like, ⁓ my God. But it really goes into, but one of the things it talks about is the use. Tim Whitaker: ⁓ cool. Mm-mm. No, I need to get it. It sounds great. You Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: of, so you have might have the older youth leader, sorry, older church leader and he's a man, he's got a beard, he's probably got gray or white hair and he wears a suit but then there's also the younger guy that is fit and like super active and talks about his hot wife and like but right, but this was almost like Tim Whitaker: Yes, super hot wife. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And talk about how these two leaders are typically in churches, but the older one is for maybe like, you might see them both depending on how big the church is or what the needs are, but like very much this male patriarch that is leading and they might dress a certain way to come off as a different, like maybe the younger male doesn't wear the suit or the tie, but, and he's chill, right? He's doing it in jeans. But all of this around like masculinity that's patriarchal ⁓ and not able to question because that also came up is like, what do you do with like those church leaders when they get a little grabby with women? ⁓ the church or like can you question these men in the church? Have you either through your community or just in your network, have you heard of these stories of ⁓ pushing back against individual church leaders or questioning and like and it not going well? Tim Whitaker: What y'all When that happens, it's yeah, no, I mean that that that's pretty standard. You know, I mean, I yeah, I mean, reflecting back on my own upbringing. And by the way, white evangelicalism is kind of nuanced, right? It's not monolithic and like its expression or even the culture, the subcultures inside of it. But in my experience, I remember one of the pastors was confronted over his anger issues and essentially ended up splitting the church down the middle and taking half a church with him to a new space. know, you know, church splits growing up for me were kind of like a thing over sometimes. I mean minor things like, there's drums at the church. We're out of here. As a former professional drummer who started in the church, in a church that only had a piano and no modern instruments, that was really divisive when I started playing drums in the church, you know? yeah, when it comes to the leadership, maybe that's another connection to draw from, right? There is a very hierarchical, the pastor is the one in charge. You don't question the pastor because he's been chosen by God to lead this congregation. How dare you? And it does create a systemic issue of abuse and cover up of the abuse, right? I think it's fair to say that humans anywhere can do bad things, right? This is not exclusive to white evangelicalism. The problem with white evangelicalism is that it's largely unaccountable when those bad things happen. Right when when the pastor is actually abusive or narcissistic for example, mark driscoll a very famous example of this, right mark driscoll blows up on the scene He's he's this firebrand type of personality Claims to read a book a day yada. Yada. Yada Turns out the church that he built back in the day mars hill imploded because he was he had real anger issues and was very cruel and very rude and some argue narcissistic and his reaction was to essentially blow the church up not submit to any kind of accountability by his elder board. He left that church and then Robert Morris who is a pastor of what was the world's largest, ⁓ the US's largest mega church, who was on Trump's faith council, who is now in prison for molesting a 12 year old when he was 21 back in the 80s. That Robert Morris back in the day brings Mark Driscoll in front of his entire church and says, you know, he says, and I'm paraphrasing, we have two options. We could crucify Mark or we could trust the one that's already been crucified. That's kind of how he phrases it, right? So really articulate way of saying that, but essentially giving market pass. And now Mark Driscoll has over a million followers on social media. He's a huge name in the turning point USA world, but he's a narcissist. He has a mountain of bodies behind him to the point. There was an entire podcast series done around Mark. It's called the rise and fall of Mars Hill. It was, ⁓ it was pushed by Christianity today. I think it's still on the podcast charts. three or four years later and it documented the entire story. That did not stop Mark or people around Mark from bringing him into these spaces to platform him. That's a great example of how this space can operate very often. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I'm glad you bring up Mark Driscoll because I want to talk to you about it and that makes sense. Like you're talking about the lack of accountability. You're talking about these male hierarchal leaders, masculinity. I'm really glad you made that separation that Trump might seem like the more powerful God, the wealthy abundance that he's portraying. ⁓ the harshness, like you were talking about derived from the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible. And then Heg Seth would be his younger model, like we were just saying, the two church. ⁓ But I like that you brought up Mark Driscoll, because I wanted to circle back to your homeschooling, because there's an... Tim Whitaker: Mmm. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: From what I've gathered, ⁓ a lot of homeschool communities in rejection of secular public school academics have gone through on the homeschool route and they're getting their material from a lot of the same sources. So like, Marjorie School, focus on the family. Can you talk about, I have yet to find, can you just, if you can remember, can you talk about some of those homeschool or Sunday school, just what were y'all learning? Tim Whitaker: Yep. Yes. Yeah. ⁓ boy, I how long do you got? No, so here's the TLDR on the like homeschooling network, right? By the way, a fun fact, the original homeschooling movement started by a secular borderline Marxist in America who thought that public schools were oppressive to children and wanted to liberate them from the oppression, which by the way, as someone who has kids in public school, two boys, I'm like, I kind of get that. I don't know if it's really healthy to have kids sitting down for eight hours a day, right? Whatever. But that got co-opted in like the 80s, 90s. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Sorry. Tim Whitaker: a movement, a big homeschooling movement that actually coincides with integration. It's amazing how you can trace so much of the modern evangelical movement to the days of integration. Jerry Falwell, founder of the Moral Majority, was not politicized over abortion. He was politicized over integration, school integration. And so the homeschooling movement and the private school movement explodes when the schools become integrated. That's when the Christian right kind of takes over the homeschooling world. Now, I say all this because I was homeschooled and no shade to my parents. My parents had their convictions, but I had a pretty healthy homeschooling childhood. And my mom, when she realized that she couldn't teach me certain things, it was beyond her knowledge. She put me in school to get more education. So props to her, right? And also I will say as a musician, I was 11, drumming became part of my daily curriculum, and I also had ADHD as a kid, no doubt about it. So I was able to run around the table and get back to doing my work, right? It was a customizable routine for me that worked really well. However, the broader waters that swimming in the curriculum I was swimming in comes from that fundamentalist way of thinking. So there are curriculums like Bob Jones University. which by the way, Bob Jones University for your audience ⁓ in the 70s and 80s refused to allow interracial dating on their campus. And when the IRS said, Hey, Bob Jones, we're gonna essentially erase or take away your tax exempt status. Bob Jones was so convicted in their beliefs that they said, No, we're gonna sue you because you're infringing on our religious liberty to practice our faith freely. Does that sound familiar? And they lost the case. And they overtook their interracial dating ban in the year 2000. Okay, I was learning from that school curriculum at one point. There's also paces. That's another one. And then there's the big one of Becca and these this world of curriculum kind of comes from like a couple different sources, but it's all the same stuff. I wasn't really taught about slavery in my homeschooling curriculum, you know, like that kind of stuff isn't really taught. And I mean, you could argue that even in public schools, it's not taught enough, but I was given a real whitewash version of that, you know, so yeah, the homeschooling world is built. It preys on the fear of fears of parents that if your kid goes to public school. Not only will they be corrupted because other students are there and they're automatically going to be a bad influence, but the teachers are indoctrinating your kid into what we would now say is woke ism, right? ⁓ gender affirming stuff, gay stuff. ⁓ it's all indoctrination. We have to keep our kids safe from the world. So let's homeschool them and teach them our values. That's the general idea of what we're talking about here. It's very effective for the religious right because so much of what is going on in that world is based on fear. It's not based on curiosity, right? It's not inappropriate. of hey, well, if our child has that moment where maybe they do meet a friend who's about influence, we can walk them through that and kind of come alongside them. It's not that it's protection from that, which ultimately, I to a degree I can understand, but also you're kind of delaying the inevitable because what happens when that kid turns 18 and hits the quote unquote world for the first time. Now they're now they're not equipped for any of it because you shelter them so much. They're curious, but with no with no parameters or no wisdom and they're set up for disaster. you Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, and that's kind of, I like that you said at the beginning is that there's these kernels of truth in there. Like I was reading, I've read Pete Hexthutt's books quite a bit and there's some... I'm really thankful that I have a support group and I'm so grounded in my values because there are some times I was like, damn, he's got a point. But like, yeah, our public school system is, it does need some, it needs to be addressed. And I understand all these parts that contribute. then it's an ideological thing. And it's not just like, oh, the structures are broken and we need to repair it. It's just like sweeping in. Tim Whitaker: Right. Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: a totally new way. I majored, so I was an international relations major in college. And I was also in the second program called Cortex and Ideas under the Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson program. And it was essentially classical liberalism. And it was ancient Greece and Rome and Roman Republic and then an enlightenment and a Bible and then American Revolution. And then ⁓ my seminary taught liberation theology or progressive theology. And so Like it's just a wild thing and I don't and I like to talk to you all too but like have a head full of you know like John Locke or classical Christian liberalism and then also I've got bell hooks now right and now they're arguing. Tim Whitaker: Right, right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And because they're, they're ideal, like they're just different ways of seeing and viewing the world. And one is very much based on a hierarchy and one is much more based on like a communal circle. And they're clashing. it's, tell me about your, ⁓ so you're pretty much in this world and you go into being an evangelical pastor? No. Tim Whitaker: No, I was always on the volunteer level in church world, but I was really every pastor's dream volunteer, because I was always all in. So I helped plant their churches. I built their worship teams. I was always there. But I kind of saw early on, I even did some education for ministry, but I saw early on, I don't have the gift, we'll call it, of pastoring. I am pretty blunt. I'm from New Jersey. At some point, I'm going to say something the wrong way. And frankly, saw even in those spaces, I saw the on pastors, like be perfect. And I was like, hell no, like it's never gonna be me. am, I do, as a human, I don't do well trying to be contained into like boxes and systems. I'm just not, it's a Jersey thing, I'm close to Philly, it's a Philly thing, it's my attitude, I'm a drummer. So I knew that being a pastor on staff somewhere probably wouldn't be my thing, so I just said, hey, I'll just be a great number two in terms of volunteering. So that's more of my background. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's awesome. Well, and that's very true. ⁓ That the burden of being a pastor just, and particularly like so many churches, especially that are congregationalist or like independent, the pastor has very little power to like in trying to change things. At least in my denomination, Disciples of Christ, it gets very church board driven and. Tim Whitaker: ⁓ yeah, yeah, yes, yes. As someone who started a nonprofit by accident, a small one, I've had enough of that in my life. Which by the way, I get and I understand, I respect it, but like, know, it gets to a point where you're like, guys, do we have to have a meeting over this? It's so inconsequential, but you need those things, like they're important, you know? So I definitely get it, but I'm also kind of impatient. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's, ⁓ yeah. And I went into ministry years ago and I also felt that I did not like ⁓ congregational ministry. I thought maybe I could do some part-time hospital chaplaincy or some sort of that work, but wound up going into military chaplaincy and that's where, it... It was like I woke up or something. I had been on just like my little trajectory, like, oh, I'm going to go be this reservist chaplain. I'm going to go help the soldiers. And then I get in there and they're like, we don't think that women should be here. And I was like, what? I didn't I thought you were joking. I thought. And very true. And and and I just. Tim Whitaker: So funny. Yep, sounds about right. You're right. ⁓ Yeah, fact check true. That's the problem. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I just, saw it and you know, I went through a phase where I was like, I blame myself. Well, this is what I get for joining. I was like 2017, 20, 20, I need to go back. like that was Trump's first term. Like, what are you thinking during? And then I was, don't know. I was just a, I was just a young American who wanted to go serve my country and spiritually care for folks and didn't realize how intense the politicization had become. Like, um. Tim Whitaker: Yep. Yep. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And it's a really interesting dynamic on the military chaplain side because Southern Baptists or non-denominational evangelicals vastly are represented in the military. And a lot of that has to do with A, the Vietnam War and just post-1960s distrust on progressive mainline side of it. A lot of progressive mainline churches saw Vietnam War footage and they're like, you know what, I don't think we want to emphasize war theology and ministry. We're gonna focus on hospital, prison, and like domestic chaplaincy if we leave the church kind of thing. so for, quote unquote, progressive, that's why like they aren't sending a lot of folks from their own faith into military, because it's just not what they emphasize. then, so you got that, but meanwhile, you got people getting excited by like, you know, this is now after the... ⁓ Tim Whitaker: Mmm. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: After 1960s and Vietnam War, you're going pretty quickly into Reagan and then into the 90s. It's just like you see also all these reasons for faith to get into the fight and you start to see the evangelical chaplains. Tim Whitaker: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: really take ownership of it. And I think it's fascinating. I talked to an Evangelical military chaplain yesterday and he watched that change in the 90s. he was like, I remember that like, you know, there was a lot of progressive mainline folks calling the shots and then like right around the 90s, it flipped and started growing in the 2001, 9-11 just skyrocketed. Tim Whitaker: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, I believe that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And so it's like a fascinating thing for us. I don't know how old you are, but I know that you were probably young when 9-11 happened. Tim Whitaker: Yeah, I'm 37. So is that like maybe 10 or 11 now something like that? Definitely. Well, and my uncle was in the towers. I mean, I live in New Jersey. He worked in the towers. He got out okay, but like I was at my aunt's house and she was freaking out because we didn't know if he was alive and he showed up later. You know, because this is the world before real cell phone service. And it was a very emotional moment that part is like seared into my memory forever. You know, so yeah, absolutely. Very personal. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, but like old enough to process and understand what the kids like churches were saying. ⁓ my gosh. So I'm so sorry that happened to you. ⁓ yeah, I that it is so, you know, I forget this, I was in Texas. So it was like, it was a New York thing, but it's that 9-11 was so communal and hit your entire region community so hard. So I'm glad he got out safely, but yeah. And, but building on that 9-11 piece, did you, was that a very clear message you received? Was that like, US and George Bush and and like we're going to war what was that what was the sentiment if you remember Tim Whitaker: Hell yeah, brother. mean, you have to imagine if you're growing up in this world, chances are you're listening to talk radio. Chances are you listen to Rush Limbaugh pretty often because your parents listen to Rush Limbaugh. So you hear Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity, whoever else. Absurd, freaking lutely, you know, like the war on terror, right? That was reinforced by Sean Hannity and Rush and Michael Savage and all the other names daily. And I remember that. I remember vividly Sean Hannity would bring on Imams and just like, you know, and just get them into like these corners where they had to like denounce the craziest stuff or else they were painted as a radical. It was always like, you know, like just tricks that Sean would use to get people into really awkward positions on the radio. And I remember him talking about, you know, about about radical Islam and extremism and how there's these sleeper cells everywhere. I mean, I really was I was taught and just kind of picked up, you know, they say culture is caught more than taught. I just picked up this notion that like Muslims are probably extremists, like generally speaking, you know, they are just not good people. ⁓ And they're extremely they want to kill Americans and that war on terror was ⁓ in my tradition was seen as kind of a holy war. know, like God's on our side. We have to eradicate this evil. This is is terror. Right. And it is it's so interesting as I got older and, you know, deconstructed and kind of read more widely. I was like, you know, well, certainly, I mean, like, you know, terrorism is bad. I think that we're also terrorists sometimes as the world's biggest empire and exporter of arms like like interesting, you know, because you're just taught that you're always America's always a good guy. Like we're on the side of God, everyone else is on the side of Satan, we have an obligation to carry out the will of God as a nation, right? So yes, 9-11 was a huge... rallying cry personally to become very extreme in my faith to become all in on Jesus and also to realize that there are bad people out there that look like that that largely look like they're middle eastern and and worship Allah which is just the you know, Arabic word Arabic word for God, but you know, that's not what you're taught then you're just taught that these are just bad evil people who hate you Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and what's interesting is I also noticed a divide around George Bush's response. There were people that absolutely like, it, George W. Bush's response was not enough and it pushed some folks further into their evangelicalism. And is what kind of I've gathered. mean, there were some that heralded him as a hero, but then also there's emergence of the Tea Party and then there was Obama and there was all this. I was, it's just like a, And one of the things that the and I don't want to spend too much time on Obama because I want to go back to masculinity, but one of the things I was yeah, yeah Tim Whitaker: Can I interrupt you really quick? Oh, sorry, I'm starting to cut you off. A really key point that needs to be made while we're on 9-11 briefly. And I can give you this clip that you can put in this episode if you want. So Doug Wilson, who disciples Pete Hegseth, okay? I have a clip of Doug Wilson speaking maybe a week after 9-11 where he says, and I'll give you the audio after this we record so you have proof, he says that the worst thing about 9-11 was not the towers being hit, it was the ecumenical worship service that happened in Congress where a Buddhist ⁓ and a Hindu and a lady preacher was there and the representative of evangelicalism gave the stamp of approval. He really said that. That's the man. discipling Pete Hegstedt today. So that extremism was right there all along, but even that, even those comments by Doug Wilson were not enough for evangelicals to kick him out of their tribe. I just wanted to highlight that while we were on that topic. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, that is, ⁓ I thank you for bringing that up, because those are great strands. Like, to keep this whole string has been going. ⁓ You know, I recently saw that, with the announcement of the make of the Chaplain Corps great again by Hegseth, I saw that the religious, ⁓ I can't remember the official title, but Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick of Texas runs it. ⁓ Tim Whitaker: Yes, yes. So stupid. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and it's this council on religious freedom or something like that and they were praising Hegseth for the make the chaplain court great again and in the essay or in this bit it talks about Dave Barton and how Dave Barton's on this council and supports Tim Whitaker: you Leigh/@followtheleighder: Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick and like it was like all the names were in this ⁓ and this was a this is a public statement again, I can send this and post a screenshot for my audience, but Dan Barton for my viewers is a history or grifford history or griffer ⁓ Which is not the same as a historian a historiographer is someone who likes to embellish like maybe add some things that are creative ⁓ Tim Whitaker: Yeah. put it, you're putting it so kindly. I he's a propagandist is what I would say. But yes, sure. He's adding creative retellings of history that just happen to fit a certain narrative, you know. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Yeah. And these people, to your point, all these people have been here all along. And now, like, they are, like, emerging at, like, you know, the right hand of Pete Hegseth or the right hand of Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick. And Dave Barton's books, folks, have been disseminated to military academies all across the country. He's been pulled off shelves. Literally, his publisher retracted his book because it was... Tim Whitaker: Yes. Right. That's right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: terrible like there was no Tim Whitaker: I'm pretty sure he was an accountant first. think those are like his credentials. As he went to school, I'm looking it up really quick. I'm trying to look... Yeah, he was employed as a teacher of math and science in a small Christian school. ⁓ Like that's that's who this guy is. He has he has a bachelor of arts degree in religious education from Oral Roberts University. That's a huge Christian, like evangelical think tank. There's no credentials at all for this man to be a historian of any kind. And yet he's paraded at Turning Point USA. His books are widely written. That's a great example of the kind of revisionist history and mythology that that the white evangelical space creates, which is why Trump fits so well into it. Sorry to cut you off there. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ absolutely. that didn't give that circles right back to masculinity and manhood as someone who has developed this community. Again, with Melinda Hale through the New Evangelicals. What have you seen that men have been struggling with as they deconstruct? Tim Whitaker: You know, that's a good question. I'm going to be very honest with you, Lee, about that, because I've been thinking about this in particular, because I get the double edged sword that this is, right? On one hand, a lot of us are coming out of a particularly white male dominated space where men call the shots, men give the attention, men are centered, right? I understand the need to decenter men like that. I understand the need for, you know, people like me to just sit and listen from other voices, right? I am all a that. At the same time too, I think that as a man there are times where I'm like... Am I allowed to admit that I every now and then will smoke a cigar and eat a steak without it being called like, you know, inherently toxic? Because I know that Doug Wilson does that, but I also like steak and cigar sometimes, you know, or is there a way where I can be with guys and talk about stuff that we think about as guys without without it maybe coming across as like, you know, the boys club, right? Is there space for me to say that as a white man, I still struggle with mental health sometimes, or I have my own doubts or fears, or sometimes life is tough for me without being told that, know, check my privilege at the door because I'm still a human being, right. And again, these are I'm giving kind of a maybe an oversimplistic explanation. But I think about both of those things. I think about men who are deconstructing what we I think what we need is two things. One, I think that we have to be able to reclaim community. out of the unhealthy ways that it was given to us. ⁓ I think that that's really important for us as humans, but I think for men right now, especially given that our culture really teaches this really unhealthy, you know, the individual man who's a lone wolf kind of vibe, it's so bad. Like I am in a moment, I tell you something, in my marriage, I am the emotional spaghetti brain guy, you know, my wife is not that way at all. I'm an emotional ball of all the feelings, right? I want people in my life. I want to hang out with guys. I want to be in community. So I think that we have to kind of reclaim that because of what both secular culture and evangelicalism has kind of taught us about what it means to be a man. ⁓ And also, I think that we have to be able to model what a healthy masculinity looks like. That might be, you know, it might come across kind of brovangelical, so to speak, but it's rooted in in equality, it's rooted in humanization, it's rooted in fighting for the rights of our trans neighbors, right? But it might look a little rah rah, but it's rooted in these values of equality and equity, etc. Anti-racism, decolonization. So I think that's kind of like what needs to happen. And like I said, I get both sides of it. I get the double-edged sword that this could be, which is why I think those things should happen mostly offline. with maybe a podcast or two that are designed to reach men with a better way forward, so to speak, right? That lets them keep who they are, just who they are as guys, but rooted in these values that are not patriarchy, that are not misogynistic, that are not hateful, that are not domineering, et cetera. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ and I think that's ⁓ a great point on when there is one way to be a man and then you realize that that way has been, or a female for that matter, because I'm sure women are, I mean, know women are deconstructing the whole thing too, like, it's... Tim Whitaker: Totally. Yes, exactly, exactly. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And that's almost like the heartbreaking part is it does take the sacred man, does take the sacred masculine, sacred malehood, and then amplifies it to become toxic. But of course, like smoking cigars and eating steak, hunting and smoking tobacco, that's as old as time. Like, like Doug Wilson does not have the monopoly on being a dude. And right. Tim Whitaker: Right. Right, right. right? Right? I'm kind of mad at him for doing this, right? Like he I'm not sure if you've seen like his clips. He does this thing called No Quarter November. And his thesis is look, guys, 11 months out of the year, I'm just this nice old grandpa type. But once once a year, one month out of the year, I go just scorched earth, right? That's his whole vibe. And he does these little trailers for him, where he has a flame thrower and something's on a fire is burning something I'm like, know what, Doug Wilson? Can I curse on your podcast? I'm like that wasn't damn you because a flamethrower would be pretty freaking cool. But now if I do that, I'm gonna look like a freaking Doug Wilson and be seen as like, you know, this this this bro when in reality I'm like, I don't know. That's kind of a cool concept. Like setting something on fire could be fun. But I don't mean it in Doug Wilson's world of like this like faux alpha male masculinity. It just looks like it's fun to do. So there are definitely times where I'm like these men have ruined even just fun things that I think are innocently just a fun time. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. Tim Whitaker: because they're attached to this like pseudo masculinity. I rule my house, you know, I'm the king of my castle. My wife is just submits and all they do is make babies like no, of that is attached for me. When I say I would love to wear a flamethrower and set something on fire. That would be fun as hell. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Hey, I think there is a thing, a venue in Vegas that does that. You and your team can like go and shoot grenades at like cars that were pulled from junk lots and stuff. Sponsor us. Sponsor us right now. Tim Whitaker: So much power, you know? Right, right, right. I would, that would be so, like crushing something would be fun, right? So I think that I'm at the point in my life where I'm starting to kind of like be okay with the fact that I like things that might be stereotypical male, but they're not attached to the values that I learned in evangelicalism or even in secular culture, right? And so I'm kind of learning how to thread that needle personally. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And I think that's beautiful. like, there's also the other side of all of this energy and this feeling of, you know, the dominance, the totality. On the other side of it, there is, I mean, like, the music that has come out of the Christian church, the evangelical church, ⁓ much better than hymns, what I grew up with. ⁓ We've got, I mean, a lot of these churches do significant work for their local communities. I ⁓ know teachers of private Christian fundamentalist schools and those schools also offer so much medical help to, you know, vulnerable. And so there's like, there's so much, there's community, there's feeling, there's a lot to be, again, attracted by. ⁓ And then very quickly, it turns into something like this. Tim Whitaker: Yeah. ⁓ Jesus, yes, yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ So I know that you have to hop off soon. Can you share with us what's going on for the New Evangelicals and for yourself or anything else you got going for people who wanted to learn more? Tim Whitaker: Well, yeah, you know, so the TLDR is that I started the New Evangelicals in December of 2020. Completely by accident. I was just some rando dude in South Jersey who had a lot of questions and had this thought about the new evangelicals No one had the name so I grabbed it on Instagram and just started asking questions and it blew up into this thing Like it became this nonprofit it evolved. I'm I'm like so proud of what I've done But also but a year and a half ago. I realized that like where I'm heading long term I think I'm kind of getting burnt out of being like in charge of this thing also I think I'm just limited in my in my skill set for organizational leadership and so Melinda Hale who was on our board took over as ED last summer. And it's been like amazing. It's been so good to watch what she's done with the organization, how she's evolved it, all the resources that we offer now. We have our own community space called TNE Connect. So right now we actually announced this publicly so I can say it. I'm transitioning away from the creative director role and I'm shifting to an independent contractor position. We're also host the New Evangelicals podcast and the Tim and April show and do creative stuff for the org as needed. But I'm kind of developing my own it's called Tim Whitaker speaks like you know platform that I've been focusing on more and more So it's been a really cool transition It's been really great to hand something off that I built which I never thought I had in me and it's even cooler to watch Melinda and Rebecca Thomas our board president Really start to grow the organization in ways that it's always needed But in ways that I just didn't have the talent to do frankly, you know, I'm much better yapping on a microphone I'm much better getting passionate and talking about Christian Nash and responding to all the fundamentalists. I love that work. I don't like executive director work. I don't like the fundraising part. I don't like the organizational part. I don't like any of it. So it's been really cool with that transition. I think for some people, maybe listening, who grew up in church world, whenever there's a change of leadership, you're just kind of conditioned to believe that something must have went wrong. Like, ⁓ what happened? Like, what's the T? what are they fighting? And in this case, it's like, no, not at all. The organization evolved. evolved, I handed it off and now it's growing again and it's great, you know, it's great. So it's been a lot of fun to watch the growth of the organization over the past year. And I really love what I'm doing as an individual creator under Tim Whitaker speaks. So it's really a match made in heaven. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ I love that for you. ⁓ that's fantastic. Can you ⁓ leave our listeners with some parting words or some just anything you want them to think about? yeah. There's a mix of military clergy, a lot of academic, and it's a lot of women. And so. Tim Whitaker: Well, who are your listeners? Who do you think that they are? Cool. All the things I am not. Leigh/@followtheleighder: So yeah, I guess there's a lot of folks that just like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, I guess for those audiences, like. Tim Whitaker: It's so funny. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I like what you're doing. I'm excited you're here. really, again, I want to circle back to while you're here, like to me, folks like you, Melinda, not Melinda, but you and April, like, ⁓ you're giving a voice to people. And that's really powerful. And you're also coming on and you're educating us. again, crossing that, allowing like that humanizing like what is going on and just better able to shape. In fact, I've like come away even just reading this book on the psychology of Christian nationalism. I was like, ⁓ they actually have some pretty good recruitment tips, guys. all that to say, I guess if you don't have words off the top of your head, I know I just put that on you. I want to say thank you. Okay, let me hear you. Tim Whitaker: Hmm. Mmm. No, I do. I do. For sure ⁓ Thank you for having me my words I think to this audience would just be that we need all hands on deck You know you don't push back against Christo fascism By just having one or two leaders like say stuff from whatever you perceive to be a large platform the change happens With who you know it happens with with who you're in conversation with it happens with the work that you do on your own social media platforms and so you know I think that what happens is and I struggle with this I'm sure you do too Lee so you just feel like you're such a little pebble. You know, you're just such a little like dot on the spectrum of media and of influence, right? But I'm reminded of the words of Reverend Otis Moss III. ⁓ He's an amazing pastor. His dad marched with MLK. His dad, Otis Moss, actually married MLK. And so he's one of the most prolific leaders in the Black Liberation Movement. And he sent me this message from what his dad used to say, that, you know, our job is not to build the entire Cathedral of Liberation. Our job is to place our brick on that cathedral. That's our job is to take your brick and to put it on that Cathedral then you take your brick Lee and the people out there take their brick and we keep building this house of liberation You know, so that's my encouragement. It's like just keep going. I know it's discouraging I know it feels like every day There's a new horror that we have to respond to or think about and it just feels so crushing That is a tactic of authoritarianism and fascism. mean Steve Bannon literally said we're gonna flood the zone with shit This is intentional. So find moments of joy touch grass I mean that in the in the literal happy way not in a as a pejorative, like spend time offline with your families, raise radically empathetic, loving, inclusive children who are little rebels of love to fight fascism in the future. Like do your part and don't think that it's on you to save the world. It's not, we do it together. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. That was fantastic. Well, folks, you heard it here. Tim Whitaker. Tim Whitaker Speaks is the direction he's heading in. If you want to know more about ⁓ evangelical deconstruction, the New Evangelicals is that nonprofit that he accidentally started and taken off. Tim, thanks for being here. Tim Whitaker: Absolutely, we'll do it again. Thank you. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Folks, make sure to like, share, comment. What do you think? What do think? That's another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.