Latest / The Light Medicine Podcast / Methylene Blue, IV Light, and What Most Get Wrong | Ep. 15 with Dr. Paul Anderson

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Methylene Blue, IV Light, and What Most Get Wrong | Ep. 15 with Dr. Paul Anderson · The Light Medicine Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: There was a lot of concern that red and near infrared light in the setting of cancer might, you know, be a negative uh effect.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: And what the more modern research is showing is that it's very similar to hyperbaric, where in the setting of cancer and the tumor microenvironment, the light therapy does not do the same thing that it does in non-cancerous tissue.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: So the light therapies can be beneficial if they're used correctly and they're not uh going to aggravate the cancer, etc.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hello everybody, and welcome to a new episode of our light medicine podcast.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm very happy and honored that we have one of the most um yeah famous naturopathic medical doctors of the US as our guest today, Dr.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Paul Anderson.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um we have been to many of his um wonderful AAMP conferences um over the last couple of years, and he also lectured at many of our ISLA conferences.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, he's an expert on naturopathic medicine.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: He created a lot of great protocols for laser therapy um in combination with infusion, nutraceutical therapies, and so on.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I guess he can tell us more.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: So usually we start with you just telling us a little bit about your background and um yeah, how this all started.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you very much for having me.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I've been uh practicing and uh also teaching and doing research in our field for over 30 years now.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: And the idea of using uh you know light therapies, laser therapies in medicine, um I'd been aware of for quite a long time.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh one of the interesting things about the background of uh naturopathic medicine in the United States is in previous times they they used a lot of uh light-based therapies, a lot of you know, say ultraviolet therapies and other things, which were not uncommon in medicine, you know, over 70 years ago.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so we certainly had a lot of exposure to that.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um and what I noticed, because my patient population is half advanced cancer patients, and then the other half are uh advanced chronically ill patients who don't have cancer.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: So we have the kind of patients I think that maybe derive more benefit uh from more aggressive type therapies.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: What I also just by uh by luck or chance uh had a background prior to going and finishing medical school in uh in optics and physics.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was very aware of light in in that setting, so it was not foreign to me.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um so as you mentioned along the way, because we had this uh such sick patients, we developed a lot of intravenous nutrient therapies, uh, and then as time went on, we developed intravenous uh botanical uh therapy uh protocols, etc.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: And then I think about um uh maybe now 15 years ago, between 12 and 15 years, uh the technology for being able to augment the nutraceutical IVs with uh laser therapy became more available.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so that's when I sort of went back to my old life uh in optics and uh started to look at what combinations uh as far as the absorb uh the absorption of light of my different uh protocols and uh what we could do by uh photo-modulating them with the lasers.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: So then um again, I don't remember exactly how long uh ago, but uh we in our clinic then were able to have the uh Weber Endolaser, which you can you do many things with, but we use it as an intravenous augment.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: And uh from that time forward uh we've done a lot of that.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: And what I have found is um, you know, we've done it with natural intravenous products, we've we've done photobiomodulation with certain uh drugs that we have used.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and it it really, in my experience with patients, elevates what we can do with the intravenous therapy we're doing uh to a higher level as far as the clinical impact.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: But um nowadays are you still um like actively practicing with patients, or is it right now more the education and consulting stuff you are doing now?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the the mixture has changed.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I have a practice that is a small practice and it still has some advanced cancer, uh pediatric cancer, and then also some advanced chronically ill patients.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but because I do so much medical education and training, I have to keep the number of patients smaller than I used to have.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so I still have some active practice going on, but I would say about um 80% of my time is in uh medical education and writing.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right, okay, yeah.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and when we uh when you think about um, yeah, I would say the most effective protocols, or when you look at your experience now, especially with the systemic intravenous light applications, you already talked a little bit about the use in cancer and chronic infection and things like that.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, where did you see the best results in your experience?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think, you know, the I think the people who noticed results uh more quickly would be the chronic infectious patients.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think that's because in cancer, a lot of times the changes are much slower or they're more subtle that you might see because of what you're doing.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: If you have somebody where they they have a chronic infection that is aggravating their chronic illness, um and this would match you know other data that's been done with photobiomodulation, the effect on the immune system I think is much more rapid when you have an infection because suddenly the uh the cytokines involved in fighting with the infection may be aggravated so the patient actually feels something happening more.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I think as far as what people notice, chronic infectious and potentially um uh immune deregulated, like autoimmune patients also seem to notice things more quickly.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And from your experience, where did you see the best synergies or which are the substances you see the most effective when we think about combination with the laser um like yeah, for infections or for cancer?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think generally speaking, um, although there there are exceptions to this, generally speaking, the larger the molecule, the more likely it is to be photoactivated.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: And that's simply just the physics of the light interacting with a bigger molecule.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so if you look at traditional uh photobiomodulating drugs, they have particular uh forms of their molecules.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: So when we would, for example, um biomodulate something like uh artemisinin or autesenate, uh, the malaria drug that we use in cancer and chronic infections, uh, or curcumin or quercetin, etc., these are a little bit larger molecules and they're I think more affected by the light and what the light does.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um interestingly, because we did some experimenting with it, in um maybe more acute infections in our chronically ill people, a number of the anti-infective drugs, just sort of standard drugs that are used, also are very um seemingly receptive to photomodulation as well.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I would say the structure of most of the the plant-derived nutraceutical you know drugs such as artesinate or curcumin, etc.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: Those seem to those seem to work uh and photomodulate, you know, at a pretty high rate with folks.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: So um you said you still treat or yeah, treat and consult, especially a lot of cancer patients, right?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, where do you see um or the benefits or are there from your experience certain types of cancers like more receptive to photodynamic therapy, or what is your experience in the cancer field?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think uh there's a couple of things.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um one is related to what we just talked about, but from a different point of view.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: So in cancer, a lot of times when we are using uh, say, a plant-derived drug, such as curcumin, say, or quercetin or something, um in research that I had done prior, uh, we I was part of some human research that was government funded here.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: We, for example, were using very high doses of intravenous agents such as curcumin, etc., and having a response to metastases, etc., calming down.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: So very good response.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: When we add uh photobiomodulation, what I believe that we see is we don't need this the extremely high doses of the agent, and so you get more benefit from less of, say, curcumin or quercetin uh or any of the other uh agents there.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that that's the biggest benefit is a synergy that lowers the dose.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because as most people, if you've ever had to pay for them or buy them, uh most of these agents like intravenous curcumin or testinate, etc., are fairly expensive.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're having to do very big doses, um it gets you know unaffordable.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um so the way I and when I whether I'm advising another clinic or talking to a patient, the way I characterize it is that we can make the smaller dose of curcumin work much harder by photobiomodulating it than just if we just gave a large amount of curcumin without.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, that's already a pretty good like clinical pearl, you know, so many people, um especially in the US, they're using also the count the compounds here from our pharmacy, the curcumin and the artistinate, exactly what you're saying.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: They often do the very high dose, which are yeah, not cheap, I would say, and you you're not done with one treatment, of course, in such cases.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, if you could reduce the dose and the price and then augment it with the laser therapy.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's an important um advice to many clinicians working on cancer therapy.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: Very much.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, another area that um moving away from say the the endolaser where it's inside, um, the other area that we've seen a lot of benefit in a little bit with cancer and more with chronic illness patients is transcranial uh application.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, for example, we we have used the the helmet and some other transcranial devices, and you can you can do a similar uh combination.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: Now, of course, those are in the near-infrared range, um, but there are certain agents that would be biomodulated in the red near-infrared range, and for uh brain recovery, say after a trauma, or uh the other setting is after surgery for brain tumor, um, and also in in profound fatigue sometimes, transcranial photobiomodulation along with other agents is is another really uh it's an area where people notice a change.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: That is that is, as you know, also the area where we focused our research and development work uh on now during the last two years, and we are just launching this new helmet type device with real laser technology now with deeper penetration.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, um also for the future that might be interesting for you and your protocols as well, because now we can just yeah penetrate much deeper with higher energy um photon amounts going deep into the brain, especially for children.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's yeah, also for recovery, but also for yeah, you know, anxiety, mental issues, for other development issues within children might be very effective.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, very much, yes.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so let's go a little bit back to the um, yeah, you know, we have many patients listening here, but also um physicians, of course.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when we talk a little bit about the field of chronic infections, this is also very interesting for many people.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe you we go a little bit more in detail what type um of um yeah infection are you treating?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is it mostly Lyme, or where do we where did you see um good response towards a um photodynamic therapy?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think in the area of uh chronic infections, most of the time with our uh chronically ill patients, they will their immune system will be such that it will be permissive to multiple infections.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: So they may have um, you know, some chronic viral infection or infections, they may have uh either Lyme or a coinfection of Lyme going on.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so one of the things that we found very useful is the combination in those patients of uh artesinate and then uh high dose vitamin C, both of which you can photomodulate, um, that has been more beneficial than a lot of other things we would do in from intravenous point of view.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it's partly because people uh will think of artesinate for malaria, because that's its you know purpose.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: But artestinate also has a number of other things that it does when you have chronic infections and also cancer.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: It is also antiviral, so it's been shown to be effective against uh the HHV viruses like Epstein-Bar and cytomegalovirus, etc.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but the other nice thing is it's also effective against uh non-malarial infectious agent.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: So if you have a patient with Bartonella or Babesia, etc., it can it can be effective with those coinfections.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so um in many cases, as at least a beginning treatment, we will do the uh artesinate, and you will do that first as an infusion over its wavelength, and then we'll switch to a high dose vitamin C afterwards.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: Now, the other benefit that you get with artesinate is it's it's both an immune stimulating agent, so that's how it's anti-infective, but then it's also later, about 24 hours after you infuse it, is immunomodulating.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so it has a big burst of anti-infective in the beginning, and then uh it becomes an immunomodulator as the uh as the drug and the vitamin C work through the body.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and in people who have chronic infections, as we mentioned, part of the reason they have chronic infections is the immune system has been uh out of balance in a direction that allows them to you know propagate these infections.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: So what we think we see with the the R-testinate vitamin C combo, like we saw in cancer patients, is that it's not only aggravating the infectious agents itself, but it's also helping to calm the immune system down on the back end.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's an example of uh, you know, probably one of the most useful combinations, really, right there.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um we also use that same type of a protocol with cancer, but for different reasons.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: And uh likewise, it it in my experience it seems to be more beneficial to have the uh the synergy with the light therapy.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and when we add the light therapy, so a typical protocol in your approach would it be combining the different colors?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think like the the so-called rainbow protocol, a term which was actually created by um Dr.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Eric Schoen.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I guess you remember him.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm he was working with you in the past.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so this is but like the combination of all of the different colours, or are you like doing some colours or put priority on certain colours, or do you have a more general protocol when it comes to the IV light application?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: If um so there are different uh it's it's situational in what we're using actually.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: There are times where people will do, say, the rainbow protocol where they're just running, say, saline, uh, and they're photomodulating the actual blood uh as it goes by.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: So we we will do that with people, especially real sensitive people, to kind of see what their tolerance is.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: What I have done though is um I have a clinical chart that I've made of most of the agents that we use for infusion, uh, so whether it would be artesinate or curcumin or vitamin C or whatever, and then uh what light wavelengths uh their absorption is highest.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so what we tend to do with the protocols is if it's very clear that during the artesinate we need one band of light, and then we move to vitamin C and we might need two bands of light, we'll do a three-light protocol.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll start with the artestinate tuned light, and then when the vitamin C is running, we just split it between the two wavelengths, most likely to help there.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if it's a single infusion, say of curcumin or curcumin in one IV and then the next IV maybe is uh quercetin or something, then they would get their own you know wavelength uh uh applied.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: So rather than kind of giving all of the colors, which you might do with a you know a saline protocol, if we're giving something that we know its light absorbance, uh we try to match it as close as we can.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that makes sense, of course.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um how about uh as you talked about, immunomodulating effects?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Are you also or do you also have experience with autoimmune conditions?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um in the case of autoimmunity, it's a similar uh the theory is similar that whatever you're giving would be uh augmented by adding its light wavelength pair through the laser.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um what we tend to see there is we would be using more pure immunomodulating agents.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: So if you have an autoimmune patient and maybe they have uh some infections as well, we want to treat their infections, but again, use something that would be immunomodulating also.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: But in an autoimmune patient where there's not an infectious component, we use a lot more of the um in the nutrient end of the world, uh they would be getting a vitamin, mineral, amino acid, nutrient protocol, and then glutathione uh as a base, and those can be photomodulated.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: And then they tend to do better with the um immunomodulatory botanical uh drugs such as quercetin and uh curcumin.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes uh EGCG fits in, sometimes that's more stimulating for folks.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: Resveratrol can be very helpful, uh, you know, some of those sort of things.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: So then if you think about it, with with most of with all of the botanical based drugs, they're gonna be in their own intravenous bag because they're not tolerant of other things with them.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: So we just will give that agent, say it's Resveratrol with its matched laser wavelength.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that can help the autoimmune patient again to kind of come back to an immune balance that is not that is not as aggravated and attacking the tissues, etc.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a you know it's not it's not a cure for it, but it's a very good augment to the other things you're trying to do for autoimmunity.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now we talked a lot about, yeah, especially about nutrient therapies, infusions.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um where do you see synergies or which other therapies, modalities are you using in your clinic where you see synergies?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, a common example would be hyperbaric therapy or ozone therapy has been um covered when I talked to Michael Ellenberg, or where do you see other good synergistic uh therapies to towards a photobiomodulation approach?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so one thing that uh we did a lot of was stepped therapy.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: So we we because we had availability of hyperbaric and photodynamic therapy and hyperthermia, you know, and and IVs and everything.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think one of the biggest synergies that we see with the phototherapies is to combine them with hyperbaric oxygen therapy.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and that's partly because depending on what you're photobiomodulating, you're going to have a certain uh group of things happen with the immune system and uh and and downstream effects.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: Hyperbaric oxygen takes the body uh through a response curve that uh enhances the downstream effects because it it essentially at the end of the hyperbaric dive you trigger uh a redox cascade that uh will essentially accentuate whatever you did with your photobiomodulation, etc.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so we do a lot of a lot of that.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um my uh my daughter has a clinic where they do hyperbaric and phototherapy together, and uh they do a lot of that uh in in sequence and combination for a number of different things.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so I think hyperbaric and photobiomodulation go very well together.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um as you mentioned, other oxidative therapies like ozone, for example, you know, is it is very that's another very useful one that can be augmented either with phototherapy or hyperbaric.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh and there's other, you know, there's other things I think that, you know, anything if you're thinking clinically that okay, the photobiomodulation is going to make the either oral or IV therapy I'm doing more active, then anything that would normally go uh in sequence with that therapy would be, you know, would would be benefited.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think another thing that it this comes up a lot with clinicians is well, I don't, you know, I don't have an endolaser, um, so could I still do photobiomodulation with people taking oral agents?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: And the answer is yes.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: If you say, for example, you have a person on a botanical treatment, after they've been on it for usually a few days, their blood will be at a steady state, if they're taking it every day, of those botanicals.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: What we do a lot with those patients is if if it's a uh if it's an agent that is photomodulated in the red near-infrared spectrum, we'll use external red, near infrared, you know, whole body pads, etc.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: If it's other colors, we will often use the the wrist device because that's at a very uh superficial area between the radial and ulnar arteries where the light can get through.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so we can tune that and you know turn it to different color uh that might match what they're getting.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: So it's and and a lot of times for patients uh you know where they need long-term therapy, we will have them do that at home.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: They'll get the wrist device uh and then they take their oral uh botanicals on a regular basis.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: So it's always in their plasma, and then that way it can be photoactivated.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there's a lot of really good synergy that can happen, and it doesn't always have to be in the clinic, it can also be at home.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, another question for you would be what is your opinion on methylene blue?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, it's also a very popular um thing right now.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's um you know, there's it's a strong photosynthesizer absorbing in the red light range, but there are also a lot of claims out there and many products on the market.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, what's your opinion in general on this tape, I would say?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I mean, I think a couple of things.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: One is, of course, methylene blue as as a drug has been around for 300 years, I think, um, and it's used in emergency medicine a lot.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: The first thing that I will tell patients uh especially is methylene blue can can be purchased anywhere, um, but most of what you purchase as supplements is not uh pharmaceutical grade.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: And the problem with that is if it's not pharmaceutical grade and um uh quality controlled for heavy metals, in the research grades, which a lot of you know supplements are made out of, have a lot of heavy metals in them.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, for research or use as a dye, it doesn't matter if there's heavy metals.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: I have colleagues who work in the compounding pharmacies, and they will sometimes go through three kilos of methylene blue raw material pharmaceutical grade before they find one that has low enough heavy metal to use for drugs.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the first thing is make sure wherever you're getting it, they have quality control and can tell you they test for heavy metals, number one.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because one of the big problems is if people, you know, because they can buy it anywhere, if you're taking it every day for whatever problem, and you're also taking heavy metals every day, you're sort of, you know, those two things are are not compatible.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you're making yourself toxic.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: Now, let's say you get a good clean source.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the way that I will use methylene blue, and we do photoactivate it with red light, is I tell people that if you think of a hierarchy of intervening to activate your mitochondrial function, which is really what it does.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um what we should do first is use the things that your body already is trying to activate the mitochondria with.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: So your body naturally uses lipoic acid, it naturally uses NAD and other B vitamins and some trace minerals.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: So we usually try those things first because methylene blue isn't part of what our body uses.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: But if we have somebody with very profound fatigue, say long COVID fatigue or uh chronic fatigue, something like that.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: Methylene blue can be an outside agent that will it essentially kickstarts the mitochondrial function, and when you add red light, uh it it kickstarts it in two different places, so it's quite effective.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: We will use methylene blue with people with profound fatigue to try and you know improve.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: And then what we do is once they're feeling less fatigued, we'll we'll we'll back off the methylene blue and keep doing, say, NAD therapies or you know other things like that.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's it fits in, but it's uh something your body doesn't normally have, so it's more of a drug therapy, and it I reserve it for more, you know, more intense or profound problems.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: The other place outside of fatigue, though, that I have found it very useful is in uh neurological recovery.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um so after trauma, uh traumatic brain injury type things, uh long COVID with a lot of neurological uh features, and uh and also you know, some other kind of chronic neuroinflammatory problems, neuro autoimmunity.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: So those are the places I really use it, but I I think getting a clean source that has been checked for heavy metal uh presence is the most important thing.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and a lot of people miss that.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a lot I've looked online, there's a lot of supplements, some are great.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: Some they'll say it's you know pharmaceutical grade, and you look down in the fine print and it's not pharmaceutical great.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: So you just have to be careful with it.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess that's with most, also with most oral nutraceuticals.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's so many around, and yeah, you just make have to make sure you find good quality, but you're absolutely right.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: The heavy metal load is a big issue in massine blue.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, good take-home message.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: It might have very good benefits, but you have to make sure to find a high quality one.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and then um another big hype right now is this whole field of um longevity.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the like the most popular term right now.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I prefer to um call it regenerative medicine, I would say.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, of course, here we also have a lot of applications with laser.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um so this what are your thoughts here for um so let's keep it maybe more in the regenerative medicine space.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, yeah, I I think um so um many years ago, prior to doing exclusively cancer and chronic illness, I did a uh a lot of uh orthopedic regenerative therapies with people, prolotherapy and things like you know for joint and muscle problems.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that we always saw in in the regenerative orthopedic uh therapies was the healthier the body that a regenerative you know protocol goes into, uh the better the protocol works and the longer you know it uh it it remains a positive effect.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: If you take somebody who's very ill and you try and do a regenerative treatment with them, it may either aggravate them or just do nothing, you know.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: So in thinking about it, you know, more that way, where in regeneration or regenerative medicine, you're either maybe trying to optimize function of a previously injured area, or you're just trying to optimize your body function so that your cells work good and you you know live longer, etc.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that that's a really good place for a lot of the external therapy.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: So the red near-infrared end of the spectrum uh you know goes through the skin and into uh enzyme pathways and things.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it I think that's probably one of the best uses of that.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and even now with my practice, I still I will use um, you know, if people are having problems in joints uh or muscle areas, we'll use maybe focused external uh near-infrared therapy for joints and uh and muscles, and it really uh can help in the healing and getting back to normal process.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think also the you know most people now know because it's all over social media, but um red and especially near infrared, which do work really well externally, are activating to the mitochondrial uh enzyme cascades.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so they, if you're thinking about regeneration and regenerative medicine, that's one of the biggest battlegrounds is getting the mitochondria back to working at their normal uh speed.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: So the the red near infrared can be quite helpful.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and um, we already talked a little bit about the transcranial application.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: So when we think about neuroregeneration, um yeah, we talked a bit about the new laser helmet.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think also it would be interested in the future maybe to create some protocols with you, or um what comes to your mind when you we think about neuroregeneration?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of nutraceuticals would you add into a good protocol when you think about dementia care, Parkinson patients, or also on mental issues?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: The helmet alone has already shown great benefits, but we you know we always look for synergies for optimizing protocols, so maybe you um have some good insights here.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the uh definitely the the helmet has has been very helpful, and I'm uh I'm very excited to try your new helmet when it's available.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I think when we think about either memory problems uh or um post you know trauma, inflammation, like in long COVID, and getting regeneration there, in addition to the near infrared, red light, um things that the brain uses a lot of in its memory circuits, you usually we see clinical benefits.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: So that would be phospholipids like phosphatidylcholine, very important.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh partly because membrane uh membrane structure is dependent on phospholipids, but also phosphatidylcholine feeds into the acetylcholine uh synthesis uh machine in the brain, and that's a lot of our memory circuits run on acetylcholine.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a big one.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um the use of uh lipoic acid, alpha lipoic acid, can be helpful because it crosses the blood-brain barrier easily and it supports mitochondrial function.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, anything that helps the brain has a lot of mitochondria, so uh not only B vitamins, but but NAD therapies or nicotinamide ribicide orally, very useful for brain things.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then one thing that we found, and this kind of came from uh a trauma model, but we noticed it very much helping the brain, is in people who had brain surgery, usually for a brain tumor, previous we would do vitamin C intravenous with them, and it would be helpful to some degree.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: But when we tried uh intravenous and oral curcumin, if we gave uh after brain surgery, if we gave intravenous curcumin, the patient's neuroinflammation would drop much faster and they'd be less likely to have seizures, etc.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: So in the neurodegenerative world, not surgery, uh, we we have started using a lot more, you know, curcumin, I think, is maybe intravenous, you get a lot more absorption.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's very hard orally to get enough curcumin in someone for that, for brain purpose, but you can get a lot in intravenously.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, if they're doing it orally for the neurore repair and inflammation, the botanical uh Boswellia uh absorbs better and it's it's very neurologically specific.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: So those are the things, you know, there's there's other things, but those are sort of the main uh focus in any neuroinflammatory or dementia or memory issues or or post-trauma.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, so those are very valuable insights, and yeah, we should talk more about creating some good protocols.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, get you one of the new helmets so you can also try a little bit on your patient.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Love to try, yes.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then we can you can give us some input from your side on creating good protocols, and then yeah, because this is what I mentioned already right now, our main focus of research, and um yeah, so that would be helpful.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: We will talk more about that.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so last question basically research when you look at research or or let's say um where do we have a lack of research, or where would you wish um to have more answers or more research when it comes to photobiomodulation?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think um I think uh you know, the which is all research, I think the one of the biggest limitations is quantifying the synergy.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: So for example, if we give you know uh intravenous botanical alone versus intravenous botanical plus uh photobiomodulating it, we know there's a difference in effect, but what is the difference in effect?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um you know, we have we have that data for a few things like infections of certain types, etc.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: But when you get to some of the more novel molecules like all of the botanicals that uh the pharmacy makes, etc., we know there's benefit, but we don't know exactly is it you know 50% or you know, is you know what is it?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's one area would be the actual like clinical impact area.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um and another thing that I see that's uh very confusing to well, probably patients, but mostly practitioner, is in prior times, meaning not that long ago, it's a lot like hyperbaric.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: There was a lot of concern that red and near infrared light in the setting of cancer might you know be a negative uh effect.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: And what the more modern research is showing is that it's very similar to hyperbaric, where in the setting of cancer and the tumor microenvironment, the light therapy does not do the same thing that it does in non-cancerous tissue.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_03: So the light therapies can be beneficial if they're used correctly and they're not uh going to aggravate the cancer, etc.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and and a lot of that research is very new uh because no one had thought to look there.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, I'm thinking the last six or seven years uh is just papers coming out.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I think I think that'd be another research area would be more clarity around the fact that uh phototherapies work differently with tumor cells and tumor microenvironment than they do in normal tissue, uh, and how to harness that as a therapeutic.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're absolutely right, and that's an important point because yeah, yeah, like five or ten years ago, people have always been very afraid, like, oh, when because we have those stimulating effects on cells, so if we stimulate tumor cells, they might grow.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: But you're absolutely right.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Latest research, also there has been um new publications on brain tumors, for example, that just the infrared light alone does not make the cancer grow.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's rather um the opposite.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's yeah, you're absolutely right, we need more research, but the research that came out um over the last couple of years um is showing that we don't at least we don't need to be afraid.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's it, that's right.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think making practitioners aware of that is very important.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, correct, yeah.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and for that we do our education here or at our conferences, at your conference.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um so last but not least, um maybe or you would like to share a little bit more on yeah, whatever contact information, or um where people find you, find your amazing books.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: You wrote a couple of nice books, you have your conference, so whatever you would like to share with the audience now is the um possibility.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um one to make it easy, I have a uh hub website that that has links to all these things.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so there's a link to the books, and there's a link to uh I have a YouTube channel where I do medical education.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: There's hundreds of videos there.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and then as you mentioned, we have our conference, advanced applications in medical practice.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: That can be linked through my provider web page.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and it's it's very simple.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's D-R-A-Dr A N O W now, dranow.com.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh that then leads to all the links for all the other things.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: So it's we try and keep it simple that way.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's perfect.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, from our side, we can really recommend that.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: The conferences are always awesome, the books are great to read.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um, if you're a patient uh looking for advice or a practitioner looking for more education in the in this field, um, yeah, I think there you will find a lot of great content.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, so yeah, thank you very much again for being our guest today.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, I will be in touch for the helmet and things like that, for creating more protocols, and I really hope to meet you at yeah, one of our or your next conferences.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I'm sure I'll see you soon.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Paul.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.