Latest / Yes And Land / Hunchback of Notre Dame and Autism Advocacy | Brett Nachman

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Hunchback of Notre Dame and Autism Advocacy | Brett Nachman · Yes And Land

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I felt more at ease with, you know, the young
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guy who I was becoming. Kind of the culmination
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of this that I talk about in a lot of different
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spaces because I view it as like a defining moment
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in my life was I was selected as our student
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commencement speaker. I was in front of a couple
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thousand people and I basically told folks about
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my autism and they didn't know it. I kept it
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very tight to the vest. Frollo says to him and
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trying to keep him up there and not go out there,
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he says, oh, my dear Quasimodo, you don't know
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what it's like out there. I do. Quasimodo is
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kind of the archetype of someone who feels like
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an outsider, who feels, I think, some degree
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of shame for being different and fear of being
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treated poorly by others. People didn't know,
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and not even back then in that context, realize
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the amount of stress that I carried with me in
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trying to show up in spaces where I looked like
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I had a lot of it together. just filled with
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anxiety and uncertainty. You can do a lot more
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than you believe. You just need to be around
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people who foster that sentiment and environment
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of building on strengths. And I think that's
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something that we all can embrace. Welcome to
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Yes And Land, where we say yes to the reality
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of yesterday and today. And we say and to the
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possibility, growth, and imagination of tomorrow.
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All right, welcome everybody to our next episode
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of Yes and Land. Very excited for our guest today
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who comes to us all the way from the University
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of Pittsburgh, right? Is that right, Brett? Yeah.
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Man, all the way out there in Pittsburgh, and
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we're located here in Utah. So we are very excited
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to get somebody on the other side of the country
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who has a lot of expertise, got a lot of knowledge,
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does some really great things in some of the
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research that he does and some of the teaching
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that he does. Professor over there. at Pitt in
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the School of Education, if I'm not mistaken.
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Is that correct? So very excited about what he's
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going to bring today because we're going to be
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talking about a really great Disney movie, The
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Hunchback of Notre Dame. It's a movie that for
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me personally as a kid, I didn't quite connect
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with as much as when I've rewatched it as an
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adult for some of the really important themes
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that there are. and those that maybe are more
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marginalized. And that's going to be our topic
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today is talking about people who tend to be
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more marginalized and how we can do a better
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job of finding ways to educate, to present to,
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to include those that might be on the fringes,
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those that might be marginalized for being different
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in any variety of ways. So very excited for the
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conversation today and where that's going to
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take us. So welcome to the program. Yeah, Ryan,
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thanks for having me. Glad to be here. What would
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you add to that biography of you, of the things
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that you're doing professionally? Yeah, no, I'm
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an assistant professor at the University of Pittsburgh.
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So my field, as I described to people, is very
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meta. So I'm in the field of higher education.
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So basically, I work with graduate students as
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we talk about issues facing academia and setting
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these students up for ascending in their careers
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or building their careers. in higher education.
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So to be administrators, student affairs practitioners,
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researchers, faculty, policymakers and the like.
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So it's a very reflective field where we look
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at ourselves and look at the spaces we're a part
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of and try to make it better in terms of inclusivity
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and equity and a bunch of other issues and considerations
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too. So, yeah, I've been here for the past two
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years and I've been a faculty member for the
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past four. And, yeah, glad to be building my
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own career here. I love it. And, you know, one
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thing I didn't mention, I can't believe I didn't
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mention because it's very, very important, which
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is Brett is I mean, really, he's a fellow Disney
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nerd, Disney adult. And he has a long running
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Disney related podcast called Notably Disney,
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which is just phenomenal, where he takes a look
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at. All things Disney music and Disney books.
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So anything that you can hear or read. He's been
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doing that for how many years now, Brett? We're
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going on close to eight. Close to eight years.
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And if I'm not mistaken, it's twice a month,
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right? Episodes that are twice a month. For a
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while, it was twice a month. This year pivoted
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to once a month. But nonetheless, a huge catalog
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of probably. Well over 150 episodes, maybe 180
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or so. Holy moly. Brett, that is a ton. And,
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you know, anybody that is wanting to to connect
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more with Disney stuff and get something that
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there's not other other podcast like Brett's
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podcast is definitely that way. It's really fun
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to hear. him talk about and break down for me
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i really enjoy the music conversations when they're
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talking about music stuff but also there's just
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tons of really great books that are related to
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disney stuff uh so his podcast is really great
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and and it's actually how i found him in the
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first place and really excited that we did because
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really want to dive into some interesting discussions
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today with his background in academia uh some
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of the knowledge that he has and ways that he's
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going to break that down so what's let's take
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it like way back brett so take me way back to
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like young Brett, where did you grow up? What
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was life like for you? And maybe a little bit
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from that perspective of maybe ways that you
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might have felt a little bit marginalized when
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you were growing up. Yeah, absolutely. I grew
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up in Scottsdale, Arizona, in the Phoenix metro
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area in the 90s and into the 2000s. And yeah,
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I think I grew up during a really great time
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in terms of Disney content, because this was
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the time of the Disney Renaissance. So many of
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the great animated films that so many of us love
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and carry with us today were released around
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this time. I had the opportunity at a young age
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to go to the Disney theme parks, Disneyland in
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96 when I was four, and then Walt Disney World
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at age seven in 99. And I was just a complete
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Disney consumer. All my merch was Disney. I had
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tons of Toy Story in my bedroom. That was my
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was and probably still is my favorite Disney,
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Disney Pixar film. And I was probably just very
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enchanted by. all the artistry and magic of it
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all. As someone who had a wildly imaginative
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mind myself, I was constantly creating things,
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whether it be, I love drawing maps. In particular,
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once I started going to the Disney theme parks,
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I would draw my own maps of Disney theme parks
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in my own mind. I'm thinking, hey, they should
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redesign Tomorrowland and it should look like
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this. I'm no artist, but I definitely enjoyed
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that. And I was constantly consuming Disney Channel
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and movies. You've got some Imagineer in you,
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don't you? There was that element, but it didn't
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translate to that part. Also, I love to write
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and that's now manifested in a wide variety of
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ways. But, yeah, I had a lot of passion for Disney.
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It was my what you call like a hyper interest.
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I was very obsessed with it. It still presents
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in different ways if you look at my background.
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So this is my book collection and some knickknacks
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and tchotchkes. But Disney was an escape for
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me. And I think it is for a lot of people. It
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affords a sense of exploration into different
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worlds and different experiences. And for me,
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I think as I got older, it became clear why Disney
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was so important for me. And I think a big part
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of it was just... being able to resonate with
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a lot of the characters and stories and i know
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we're going to be talking about the hunchback
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of notre dame to some extent today but for me
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when i was younger i was in many ways a lot different
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from my peers At the time, it was probably harder
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to define or operationalize what it was. But
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when I was eight, I was diagnosed with Asperger's,
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which today would fall under the autism umbrella
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or label. And very apparently so in terms of
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the ways in which I communicated. Didn't start
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talking until I was about three. So delayed speech
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there. But I was also reading and writing around
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the same time. So there were some elements of
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my learning that were perhaps a bit more enhanced.
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Additionally, my... Is that pretty common, Brett?
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For anybody listening, like if somebody has a
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child that has autism or other people, like is
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it pretty common to have certain things that
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might be delayed, but other things that it ends
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up being a little bit more enhanced because of
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that? I mean, I've kind of heard that, but I
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don't know if that's supported by research. Absolutely.
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Yeah, we can look at autism as a developmental
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disability. So certain developmental processes.
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come at different times and different ways. And
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that's kind of an example of that. There's also
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a lot of characteristics associated with autism
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that in many ways society would view as more
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unacceptable or not as welcomed that I showed
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signs of, right? So when I was very young, like
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I would have tantrums, I would get super overstimulated
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or overwhelmed in crowds and loud spaces. I would
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have a variety of different sensitivities and
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challenges at times in communication, reading
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nonverbal communication, expressing my own ideas
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and thoughts. So these are just a handful of
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the characteristics associated with autism that
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sometimes are painted with kind of a negative
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light. On the flip side, some characteristics
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associated with autism that are more positive
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or considered strains. I also demonstrated extremely
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detail -oriented, organized, responsible. And
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I would say the creativity is also sometimes
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manifesting uniquely with autistic folks. And
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I guess to some extent, I demonstrated that.
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So diagnosed at age eight, and it was... I think
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it was kind of a transformative period in the
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sense that we could now define why I was different.
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But then it's like, OK, well, what now? And when
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I was a child, I went through a variety of different
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therapies to account for the ways in which I
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was different or needed additional supports.
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I had a lot of challenges with reading comprehension.
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So I worked on that. Also, some different therapies
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related to like. mobility and balance, which
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is not too unfamiliar or rare in the autism community
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to need like some degree of occupational or physical
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therapy, some speech therapy. And ultimately,
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amidst all this, like Disney was a real place
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of comfort because, you know, I'm trying to make
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sense of myself and my differences compared to
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my peers and how I showed up. And there are other
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forms of marginalization that that I experienced
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and experienced. And Disney was an outlet to
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feel like, you know what, I feel at ease, I feel
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comforted. The parks always felt like safe environments
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for me when a lot of things in the world felt
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just very overwhelming in nature. So that's kind
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of sum up that period of time. Were there any
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specific ways in which kind of during those years
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when you when you realize that that's a little
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bit different about you and you're getting some
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help to do it, were there any particular ways
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where you really did feel marginalized by your
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peers, by the people around you who treated you
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differently or made your life a little harder?
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Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there were definitely a lot
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of social challenges that I faced in my kind
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of elementary school years in terms of communicating
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with others and understanding. whether it be
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social norms or different situations. And actually
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that translated to right around the time when
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I was wrapping up my elementary school years,
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my mom had just completed an online master's
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degree. And this was in the early days of online
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education. And she was kind of experiencing like
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a bit of a career change and lots of challenges,
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again, with my education and making sense of
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my autism. And we as a family decided, let's
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see about me being homeschooled as a way to really
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hone in on the things that I was strong at and
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also make sense of and work on the things that
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I struggled with in many ways connected to autism
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and social situations and stuff like that. So
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in my middle and high school years, I was homeschooled.
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And homeschooling sometimes has a mixed reputation
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and interpretation depending on how people. frame
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it I had a lot of structure and you know took
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all the common courses that one would and then
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in tandem focused on some things that were reflective
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of my strengths we invested a lot of time into
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reading and writing so that I would feel more
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adept on that front but in the same period you
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know I was a teenager and also you know going
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through the changes that come with that and and
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because of a lot of the social anxieties that
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I had, quite honestly. I kept myself isolated
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from peers in middle and high school because
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I was fearful of rejection and stereotyping and
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a lot of things. And then I know later we'll
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talk later in my life, but when I started community
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college at 17, that was kind of like a huge transformative
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period in terms of me putting myself out there
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and ultimately redefining what my life could
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and would be like. Not everywhere can be the
14:12
happiest place on earth. And at RCG Law Group,
14:15
my job outside of our podcast, we get that. Life
14:19
throws curveballs, legal stuff, family stuff,
14:22
the things you didn't see coming. That's what
14:25
we're here for. If you're dealing with something
14:27
and don't know where to turn, give RCG a call.
14:31
When you're going to go in through that a bit
14:33
and, you know, your family. hopes to make this
14:37
decision with you about doing the homeschooling
14:39
and you're getting some additional um help or
14:42
things what what did you feel like that that
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the help that you got did right and and where
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do you feel like it was maybe a bit lacking uh
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back then in the late 90s early 2000s yeah i
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mean i think all the support that i got um primarily
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from my mom and you know occasionally through
15:02
some therapies and different things everything
15:04
was appropriate for me and right. And I think
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a lot of that came from because my parents are
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very thoughtful and informed individuals who
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explored things and wanting to make sure that
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I would be supported. For those who aren't necessarily
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in the disability space that I'm in, both in
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terms of my lived identities and some of my research,
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this is also a time when there's kind of a shift
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in, to some degree, where a lot related to disability
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and autism and everything under that umbrella
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is often medicalized and looked at as like how
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do we treat this or how do we fix this right
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which could be almost like translating to like
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that someone has an illness or something that
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needs to be changed whereas in the past couple
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decades we've seen more of a shift to more of
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like a social justice social model where we're
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thinking of like you know society has its issues
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and society is not always understanding of and
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supportive of folks who are disabled. So how
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do we make adjustments in our own ways to to
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account for the differences among folks who are
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disabled or in my case, autism? So for me, I
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think I got a lot of the right supports because
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of the family that I came from and the space
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that I was a part of. I grew up in a metropolitan
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area, middle class family with familiarity with
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issues around disability and supports along those
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lines. So I think I was very well positioned.
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And then my mom was in a position to homeschool
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me and her background was, you know, she didn't
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have a formal background in education, but the
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nature of her past work was related to supporting
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folks with different health and educational considerations.
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So ultimately, I had a lot of privileges and
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a lot of support going in. But my narrative is
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not necessarily representative of everyone. And
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also, too, a lot of folks who are autistic, we
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see a lot of common representations being, you
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know, folks who are white, male, middle class,
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which I am. And so in that sense, what I've tried
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to do in... Talking about my story and also in
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the research I do around autism is kind of reinforcing
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this notion that autism and other disabilities
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affect a whole wide range of communities and
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not just folks who are commonly depicted in certain
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media. Yeah. So in doing my research, kind of
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in preparation for this, I came across a number
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of different materials and things that really
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stuck out. And this is your field. And so please,
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please correct me if I get anything wrong in
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this. But somebody that I came across is by the
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name of Temple Grandin. And I just a quote that
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I really liked and some ideas that it looked
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like she had that just really actually helped
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shift my perspective. I want to get your take
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on one of the things that I wrote down that she
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said about this specifically because she apparently
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is autistic herself. She said, I am different,
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not less. which I think really goes in line with
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what you're saying, right? And then one of the
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things that I took out of some of the stuff she
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had too is she trying to change the conversation
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from autism as a deficit towards autism as a
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different, valuable way of processing the world,
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which I just thought was really interesting that
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I hadn't looked at it from that perspective before.
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Kind of want to get your take on that and maybe
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some of the things that she's done or research
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that you've seen specifically on that. Yeah,
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no, and I think there's a lot of... transferable
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qualities that she puts forward there. She's
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kind of, I think, in many ways the face of autism
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because of the amount of good work that she's
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accomplished on a variety of fronts. And, you
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know, she's depicted by Claire Danes in a really
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popular biopic about 15, 20 years ago now. And
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there are more notable autistic folks who have,
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I think, surfaced in recent years, too. But I
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think the notion of you know, not deficit, but
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different is a great way of looking at it, right?
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Like who's ultimately carrying out those interpretations
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and notions of what's considered okay. It's generally
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folks who aren't autistic or aren't disabled
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and can establish what those norms are. I'm definitely
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a proponent of this notion of, in the autism
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community, it's called like the double empathy.
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It's this notion of like, let's try to meet each
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other halfway, right? Autistic folks sometimes
19:42
have to adapt to what the norm is, but the norm
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should also try to adapt to some extent to what
19:48
the autistic person needs. And not all autistic
19:51
people are the same and much like any other marginalized
19:54
community or group. So I'm definitely a fan of
19:59
the notion of that. You know, everybody has their
20:02
differences and everybody has their. challenges
20:05
based on what either they have in themselves
20:08
or how society engages with them or views them.
20:11
We need to work toward a society where we can
20:14
be more understanding and empathetic and including
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folks. Yeah. Did you call that double empathy?
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Is that what you called it? So the double empathy
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problem, yeah, is and more accomplished folks
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than me have and who are more kind of looking
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at autism as a disability in their work have.
20:33
worked extensively in describing this, but it's
20:35
this notion of that there's adaptations that
20:38
we should all be engaging in to try to engage
20:40
in some degree of perspective taking. Yeah. Yeah.
20:43
I really like that. Yeah. I'd never heard that
20:45
before. And I love, I love that. So here's where
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I kind of want to go from here because there's,
20:50
there's more about that your story and as it's
20:54
evolved and developed over time. I want to pull
20:56
it. I want to do it as we start working through
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kind of the arc of the Hunchback of Notre Dame.
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And so if there's anybody out there listening
21:05
to a Disney related podcast who hasn't watched
21:07
the Hunchback of Notre Dame, if they haven't,
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would you give us, Brett, a brief kind of 30
21:14
,000 foot view of the tale, the story of the
21:18
Hunchback of Notre Dame? And then we can really
21:20
start diving into the arc of the movie. Gosh,
21:23
yeah, I don't feel like I'm going to do it justice.
21:26
You've watched it more recently than me, as we
21:28
discussed. But it is it is a favorite of mine.
21:31
So this is based on the Victor Hugo novel from
21:34
many centuries ago. And as at least in the Disney
21:38
version, what we have is it's set in Paris and
21:41
it focuses on Quasimodo, who's this at the beginning
21:46
of the film, he's this physically disabled. baby
21:52
who is essentially through a very problematic
21:57
opening. It's a very disturbing opening where
22:00
his mother is a gypsy and essentially dies. And
22:07
Frollo, who's this judge and figure in medieval
22:15
Paris, essentially takes Quasimodo and and locks
22:20
him in metrodome and bell tower to basically
22:23
because there's embarrassment over what he looks
22:26
like and thinking that he needs to be shunned
22:28
from everybody and at least in the film it's
22:31
implied that quasimodo is a teenager or young
22:34
adult very very young adult who is you know tired
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of this life that he's been living where he's
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locked away and he longs to be out there among
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The village people and through a series of different
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experiences comes to befriend Esmeralda, who's
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a gypsy, an outcast like himself, and Phoebus,
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who's this kind of dashing soldier who ultimately
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falls in love with Esmeralda alongside Quasimodo.
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So we have a little love triangle of sorts going
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on. And it's this notion of folks trying to escape
23:16
persecution and disrupt Frollo's wield over them
23:25
and aspects of society. And it's a beautiful
23:29
story of resilience. understanding and teamwork
23:34
to some degree. So it's a forgotten film in some
23:38
ways in kind of the lineage of Disney animated
23:41
films of that era. But I think there's also been
23:44
a generation of people like myself who grew up
23:46
on it and find deep meaning and value in the
23:50
storytelling and the themes. And we can take
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it from there. Yeah. um but well said uh i think
23:58
that was a great description uh of it of the
24:00
overarching kind of story there and so as we
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kind of roll back to the beginning and we kind
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of take a look at the beginning of this film
24:08
after after the problematic opening right where
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uh but frollo actually was going to kill quasimodo
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he was going to throw him into a well that's
24:16
right uh decided decided not to because uh the
24:19
the priest i think there at that notre dame archdeacon
24:21
yeah yeah yeah and so um at this thing when the
24:26
feast of fools is going to be going on and quasimodo
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wants to go to this feast of fools because he
24:30
from the bell tower you know celebrates it with
24:33
the gargoyles every year and they're trying to
24:34
convince him that he should go down and um frollo
24:37
says to him and trying to keep him up there and
24:40
not go out there he says oh my dear quasimodo
24:42
you don't know what it's like out there i do
24:45
i do and you know what we're starting to see
24:48
you know with that is is kind of frollo's role
24:52
in Really, I mean, keeping Quasimodo down and
24:56
marginalizing him. Let me get your kind of take
24:58
on that of kind of what the role of Frollo is
25:00
and what that is like for people who are marginalized
25:04
today in the Frollo's in our lives. Yeah. Yeah.
25:10
I mean, he's a character who represents a lot
25:14
of emotional manipulation, gaslighting and all
25:17
the. problematic things. And, you know, there's
25:21
so many different examples of that in modern
25:24
day and in society. And you mentioned this notion
25:28
of Frollo's in our lives. Like, you know, a lot
25:30
of people, unfortunately, by virtue of where
25:33
they are in circumstance, like sometimes are
25:36
around folks who are demeaning and condescending
25:39
and diminish someone's worth. And until you sometimes
25:46
have a bit of exposure to the to other folks
25:49
and folks who are not necessarily demonstrating
25:51
those characteristics, your your picture of the
25:54
world can be very distorted, unfortunately. Yeah,
25:58
for sure. And and and then, you know, Frollo's,
26:01
I guess, hatred or marginalization of people
26:06
extends, you know, obviously well beyond just
26:08
Quasimodo extends then to the gypsies. Right.
26:12
And. um in kind of explaining or a portion of
26:16
it where he's kind of explaining this um he says
26:20
the gypsies live outside the normal order their
26:23
heathen ways inflame the people's lowest instincts
26:26
and they must be stopped and it's just more of
26:29
this marginalization that he's doing right of
26:31
of who the gypsies are and what they're doing
26:33
and just trying to keep keep people down Where
26:37
do you think that comes from for people, again,
26:40
for those Frollo's that are in our lives? Where
26:42
does that come from where they try to keep people
26:45
down, where they try to cast people out or make
26:49
people claim that people are living outside the
26:53
normal order just because they're a little bit
26:54
different? Yeah, I mean, I'm not I can only psychoanalyze
26:59
this so far, but but I think a lot of it stems
27:03
from people's lack of. self -confidence and fear
27:07
of themselves being marginalized by others. And
27:14
so it comes out in bullies and different behaviors
27:19
where people are going to try to assert their
27:21
strength and power and influence, right? And
27:26
how does that manifest itself? Kind of like what
27:28
we discussed in terms of the emotional manipulation.
27:31
I'm no expert on that front, but I think we see
27:35
that it's often stemming from a lack of faith
27:39
in oneself that causes someone to lash out toward
27:41
folks who hold less influence or power in certain
27:47
respects, but actually may carry a lot more than
27:50
meets the eye. What's the role of framing for
27:56
us when maybe we're not as bad as Frollo, but
28:01
that we sometimes will frame somebody in a certain
28:06
way or put a certain label on somebody in a certain
28:09
way that then affects how we actually will interact
28:13
with them? What do you think the role of that
28:14
framing is here? You know, he's saying like.
28:17
The gypsies, they live outside the normal order.
28:20
They're lower, they're worse than. So he's framed
28:22
them that way in his own mind. What's the role
28:25
of framing for us as we're thinking about other
28:27
people, people who maybe are different than us
28:28
or not like us? Right. Yeah. And that can extend
28:31
to so many different spaces, right? Folks from
28:34
a different culture or nationality than ourselves
28:36
who speak a different language, racially, gender
28:39
identity, you know, the list goes on and on.
28:41
And I think, you know. there's a lot of ignorance
28:45
in the world. And, you know, and not everybody
28:48
is going to be adept in understanding every lived
28:52
experience and identity. And that's okay. But
28:56
sometimes, you know, and again, I'm no expert
28:59
on this, but we talk about this in different
29:01
spaces on the part of in terms of microaggressions,
29:03
right? This notion of saying things that are
29:07
not necessarily meant with malice, but doing
29:10
things that actually may still produce harm in
29:12
terms of language or framing questions a certain
29:16
way or having certain stereotypes of people,
29:20
so on and so forth. And, you know, and these
29:23
are pervasive in all spaces. And even the most
29:26
well -informed person on marginalization and
29:29
identities may not necessarily get it right either
29:33
all the time. But I guess what I would say is
29:37
that we just need to be open to learning and
29:40
unlearning. information and things that have
29:43
been kind of espoused to us in different settings
29:45
over time and realizing that there's often a
29:49
lot of adjustments in our discussions around
29:54
marginalized individuals, looking at that more
29:56
collectively as time goes on, depending on the
30:00
spaces we're a part of, right? If we're inculcated
30:03
in a space where we're told XYZ about an individual
30:07
with a certain identity, then we're going to
30:09
probably embrace that, internalize it, and express
30:11
that in ways that could be hurtful, as opposed
30:14
to if we're in a space where we're challenging
30:16
ideas and conventions and learning and exploring
30:19
things on our own. And again, that just comes
30:21
down to where we grow up and what we have access
30:25
to in terms of our resources, our own open -mindedness
30:29
and wanting to learn from others as opposed to
30:31
just having certain assumptions. So I know that's
30:35
kind of talking very broadly, but that's often
30:38
there's a lot of different factors that play
30:39
into possessing those connotations of of people.
31:04
to make the dream a reality yeah well i mean
31:08
i think the the general broad application is
31:11
helpful as we think about it because i think
31:13
anybody listening can say like okay in in our
31:17
lives and the different facets of our lives in
31:20
work in home in other spaces when when does that
31:25
manifest when do we start allowing ourselves
31:27
sometimes to maybe judge a little bit from lack
31:30
of information and can we be open i think one
31:32
of the things i heard you say is just like even
31:34
people who are really aware of it can sometimes
31:36
still make mistakes so what i would say is like
31:39
if we're aware of it and we're willing to work
31:42
on it and then when those things come up that
31:44
we're not offended if somebody brings up to us
31:47
that there may be we're not looking at the whole
31:49
picture or maybe we are marginalizing somebody
31:51
if we can be open to that and be willing to listen
31:55
be willing to acknowledge that we could do things
31:57
a little bit different i think that's really
31:58
helpful in keeping the conversation going um
32:01
you know when when we take a look back at the
32:04
movie right um if we look at esmerelda so she
32:09
herself obviously has been marginalized she's
32:11
a gypsy and she's obviously looked down on by
32:13
a lot of people but i think you kind of see her
32:16
going through that with quasimodo right when
32:20
she first encounters him she thinks he's wearing
32:22
a mask because it's the fist of old fools and
32:24
she thinks that he's like this is a really great
32:26
mask that this guy's gone on and then initially
32:28
like oh wait there's this kind of shocking reveal
32:31
when she tries to pull the mask off and it's
32:33
not actually a mask and it's him but then she
32:36
started to kind of adopt this that later in the
32:38
movie i wrote down this quote i want to get your
32:40
take on of kind of like the role that maybe somebody
32:42
can play in in supporting somebody who's marginalized
32:45
where she's talking to i believe frollo and she
32:49
says you mistreat this poor boy the same way
32:51
you mistreat my people you speak of justice uh
32:54
yet you are cruel to those most in need of your
32:57
help and so i maybe give your take on like what's
33:00
the role that somebody can play in supporting
33:02
somebody else who might be marginalized yeah
33:05
i mean i think this it's this notion of empathy
33:07
that can transcend um even a specific community,
33:11
right? This notion of what we say in a lot of
33:14
space of being othered, right? Being viewed as
33:16
the other or the different person. So, and I
33:20
think, you know, that's why I think these are
33:22
such great characters because Esmeralda really
33:26
empathizes with Quasimodo, even though their
33:29
lived experiences are different, despite the
33:32
fact that, you know, Quasimodo's mom was a gypsy
33:34
herself, like this notion of that they are shunned,
33:37
they are viewed. in a very negative light, unfortunately
33:41
so. And so we need to, it's so important to have
33:46
folks in our world who not only have complementary
33:50
experiences to our own, so who can provide like
33:53
a different perspective, but to find what are
33:56
those common threads in terms of, you know, maybe
33:59
challenges that they faced by virtue of their,
34:01
you know, lived experiences. And also realizing,
34:05
you know, within any community, marginalized
34:08
or not, there's a lot of diversity. So also realizing
34:12
that just, you know, even two people within the
34:15
same very limited space may have vastly different
34:18
ways of having navigated the world or what their
34:21
strengths are, what their challenges are. So
34:23
Esmeralda, I think, is a... Lovely example of
34:26
someone I think we all want to try to be, which
34:29
is just really compassionate. And I like her
34:34
feistiness, too, because I think we all need
34:35
to have a bit of that. But there's a lot of good
34:39
qualities that come through in how she interacts
34:42
with the other characters. Yeah, for sure. Related
34:47
to that, you know, the next kind of quote that
34:50
I pulled was from Amy Edmondson. And one of the
34:54
things that she said that I think is something
34:58
that maybe we could dive into a little bit is
35:00
she said low levels of psychological safety can
35:03
create a culture of silence. And so when we look
35:06
at, you know, creating psychological safety in
35:11
the different environments we're in so that people
35:13
can feel more empowered to be themselves. Right.
35:18
What what perspective do you have? Maybe specifically
35:21
as it relates to. uh to the things that you do
35:24
um in the school of education over there um for
35:28
helping those that are going to be in the education
35:32
profession those that are going to be uh professors
35:35
or teachers or in higher education like uh what
35:38
what kind of things do you help your students
35:41
learn and understand to create kind of these
35:43
this psychological safety yeah gosh um that's
35:48
a great question and i think it looks You know,
35:51
it looks differently at different times and in
35:53
different spaces, but fundamentally, like I'm
35:57
in a position where as a college professor and
36:00
working with folks who are themselves in education
36:03
and wanting to ascend in their careers, like
36:05
there's already some degree of shared understanding
36:07
of here are the places we're a part of, right?
36:09
Like I'm sure like you thinking about your own
36:11
journey. Ryan, like, you know, being in spaces
36:15
related to law, like there's certain things that
36:18
like everybody understands and certain people
36:21
and certain norms and whatnot. So like bottom
36:24
line is I'm in the helping profession. I'm in
36:26
a space where we're all focused on making other
36:30
people's learning experiences and settings better.
36:33
So baseline, I'm in it. in a really viable space
36:37
for a lot of introspection and reflexivity. And
36:40
when I interact with students for the first time,
36:42
you know, I tell them a little bit about myself.
36:45
I'm more interested in them than I am sharing
36:47
about me, but I make it very clear that the settings
36:50
that I try to create in my classroom are such
36:53
that, you know, I want you all to kind of set
36:57
expectations with me, like what type of environment
36:59
do we want to build together? What are our expectations
37:01
of one another? But also, You know, what can
37:05
I do to make it a better environment for you?
37:07
And I allow folks to demonstrate this anonymously
37:11
if they so choose. So they, you know, I found
37:14
out from folks about whether it be different
37:16
disabilities they have or different life considerations
37:19
they have, whether it's their working parents
37:22
or they're taking care of someone who's ill or
37:26
whatever the case may be. Elevating psychological
37:29
safety in my mind is trying to kind of lay it
37:36
all out in terms of like, here's what I'm going
37:38
to contribute to the space. Here's how I'm showing
37:41
up, right? Like I carry with me a lot of forms
37:44
of privilege that may differ from y 'all. I also
37:48
have some different forms of marginalization
37:49
that you may or may not be aware of. And I share
37:52
it so that you have a better understanding of
37:54
how I'm approaching things. And I do think to
37:57
some extent that that builds a degree of trust.
38:00
But more than that, it's I think in how um how
38:04
i engage with students and that i i want to create
38:07
a shared learning experience i tell them you
38:09
know i'm not the expert in everything and you're
38:11
going to teach me stuff along the way and my
38:13
even though i hold more power in this space than
38:16
you um that doesn't mean that i'm not wanting
38:19
to to learn and adapt and so i think that overall
38:23
goes uh that goes well um and people respond
38:27
favorably to that it doesn't mean that i haven't
38:29
you know made mistakes and made adjustments and
38:32
And how I've approached my teaching and other
38:35
spaces. But I think psychological safety accounts,
38:38
it translates to building a space where everybody
38:41
feels welcomed and supported and can thrive.
38:44
Like I, I'm particularly attuned to the fact
38:48
that like, not all examples I bring about in
38:54
class may resonate with folks, whether it be
38:57
things in history of our field or even pop culture
39:01
examples to try to make it more flavorful. And
39:03
I try to be very self -deprecating and playful
39:07
and make it not like this is my approach and
39:09
I want you to feel like that, you know, you can
39:12
laugh and have fun, that you can ask questions
39:14
and not feel inhibited. I tell students, like,
39:17
don't fall into learned helplessness. Don't.
39:20
be in a space where you are afraid to ask for
39:23
support. And ultimately, then you face later
39:25
challenges down the line. I can't necessarily
39:27
change how you experience things internally and
39:30
how you've been taught to communicate ideas or
39:33
share questions. But I can reinforce that, like,
39:36
I'd rather you be proactive. And even if it's
39:39
hard to ask for help or to not know how to do
39:41
something to do that, as opposed to putting yourself
39:45
in a compromised situation. So I think that too
39:47
may also make them feel like they're in a safer
39:50
environment. Yeah, I mean, I heard some really
39:53
great things when it comes to creating that psychological
39:57
safety. I mean, one is that you're opening up
40:01
the discussion to find out what things they're
40:04
looking for in the shared experience that you
40:06
have and trying to create an environment where
40:08
they can contribute and tell you those things.
40:12
I also heard an acknowledgement that you make
40:14
of like, hey, you're here to learn and I'm here
40:16
to learn, too. I don't know everything. I think
40:19
that's really important. Anytime there is going
40:21
to be a power dynamic that exists, because obviously
40:23
there is. You're the professor. They're the students.
40:25
There obviously is. But acknowledging that you're
40:28
willing to learn and that you're willing to listen,
40:31
I think is very, very helpful. I also love how
40:33
you talk about bringing in a little bit of levity.
40:36
I think that's I think it's important in. um
40:39
in a learning environment i think is important
40:41
in um a work environment i think it's important
40:45
in conversations um dr allison wood brooks she
40:49
she has her acronym talk right if you've if you've
40:52
heard of that and one of the key things that
40:54
she talks about in quality conversations that
40:56
the l and talk is for levity where you bring
40:59
a little bit of humor because it tends to help
41:01
help people just feel a little bit more comfortable
41:04
right everything doesn't have to be super serious
41:06
all the time bringing that levity can be really
41:09
helpful what advice would you have for say people
41:14
like myself who run a small business yes i'm
41:17
a divorce attorney and certainly there's a component
41:18
there uh we could maybe dive into after that
41:20
but but i i run a small business and so i'm i'm
41:24
working with people in an environment where i
41:25
want to create that psychological safety there
41:28
other small business owners you know i'm sure
41:30
have similar things where they want people to
41:34
feel like going to work as a place they want
41:36
to be and that they can feel safe and accepted
41:38
in those spaces what advice would you have for
41:39
small business owners yeah no i mean i think
41:43
those folks are and yourself like you're very
41:45
well positioned to create that because there's
41:48
fewer people to account for where it's like a
41:51
shared shared experience like work i think about
41:54
it like working on a on a team right so i don't
41:57
have a small business but um but i led and worked
42:01
on research teams where, you know, relatively
42:03
small group, much like a class. And ultimately,
42:07
how can you elevate that? It's through kind of
42:10
sharing what your values are, you know, in a
42:13
lot of workplaces, right? You know, there's either
42:15
a mission statement or a webpage or something
42:19
that illustrates, like, here's what we're prioritizing
42:21
and having folks collectively work toward whatever
42:24
those goals are, but also realizing that there's
42:27
some degree of iteration depending on who's part
42:30
of the conversation and knowing that things may
42:31
change. It's being understanding and empathetic.
42:37
And I think both things can be true. Like, you
42:41
know, someone can be judgmental about things
42:43
they don't like in terms of qualities, but at
42:46
the same, like, for instance, like being late
42:49
and not doing things, you know, in a timely fashion
42:51
or whatever the case may be. Like my students
42:54
know that I'm very precise about communicating
42:57
and And making sure that things are done in a
43:00
timely manner. And if not, like, you know, please,
43:02
let's come up with some alternatives. But in
43:05
terms of empathy, right, it's realizing that,
43:08
you know, you don't always know, like when someone's
43:11
showing up to work or showing up into a class,
43:12
like what have they dealt with in the past 12
43:15
or 24 hours with their families or their home
43:21
situations, whatever the case may be. So I think
43:24
a safe environment is one where you can. Allow
43:27
others and allow yourself to be open to talking
43:30
about things that are sometimes uncomfortable
43:32
or not always quite, you know, according to what
43:38
you have envisioned. But if you can allocate
43:40
that space, you know, it can be helpful, right?
43:44
Like I've worked with so many folks over the
43:47
years where, you know. whether they had just
43:51
lost someone right before class, a family member
43:55
or pet, or dealing with financial concerns. Maybe
44:02
I've had a few deal with natural disasters that
44:05
have uprooted their kind of home life. So many
44:10
different things. So a safe work environment
44:13
or safe learning environment is such where you
44:16
offer yourself to be supportive and open. and
44:19
try to create a setting where they can feel like
44:23
they can share and not just keep it all to themselves,
44:25
but also still focusing on the task at hand.
44:28
And if you need to, you know, make adjustments
44:30
and then work toward that, that's all well and
44:32
fine. Yeah, I mean, it's a great point, Brett,
44:35
because, you know, as I think about, I think
44:38
about that idea that I've heard from you a number
44:40
of times is the empathy with those situations,
44:42
you know, in my profession. We are dealing with
44:48
people going through divorce all the time and
44:50
with certain situations that occur. And then
44:53
we have at times have had employees where a certain
44:57
start time that we have normally for the office
45:00
becomes very difficult because they are divorced
45:03
or going through it. And now their responsibilities
45:05
with kids in school are suddenly vastly different.
45:08
And if all we do is just say like, hey, look,
45:11
start time is this. No offense or buts about
45:13
it. I don't care what the reason is. then it
45:15
becomes harder to have that environment. But
45:17
when we're willing to ask the questions, we're
45:18
like, okay, why have you had a hard time getting
45:21
to work on time? And they can feel safe enough
45:23
to come to us and say, hey, yeah, I mean, look,
45:25
I'm going through a divorce here and here's the
45:28
situation I have and I've got to take the kids
45:29
to school. And so I have a hard time getting
45:32
to work at this time. Being willing to sometimes
45:34
make adjustments when it's possible. Certain
45:36
things aren't right. Like certain jobs that we
45:38
have, there's just nothing you could do. But
45:40
when there is room for that, being willing to,
45:44
make those adjustments and make those accommodations
45:46
for people so that they can come to us and we
45:48
can work together to work on solutions and make
45:51
things happen i do think to your point it just
45:54
brings a little bit more of that having that
45:56
empathy brings a little bit more of that safety
45:57
there and when you have more safety i think people
45:59
will will give better work, right? Whether or
46:02
not it's a student who is able to learn more
46:04
effectively or it's in a work environment where
46:06
their work product improves, their customer service
46:08
improves because you can create that environment.
46:10
I think it's really, really important. I really
46:13
appreciate what you're saying there, Brett. I
46:14
like that a lot. One of the other things I want
46:17
to ask you about is there's a quote here I've
46:20
got from Brene Brown where it talks a little
46:24
bit about some of these topics we've come up
46:26
with and maybe a little bit different light on
46:27
it. But what she said is, True belonging never
46:30
asks us to change who we are. True belonging
46:33
requires us to be who we are. And I just find
46:38
that to be, I think it's timely. I think it's
46:41
on point with the things that we're talking about.
46:42
Let me get your take on that real quick. Yeah.
46:47
Say the last part again. True belonging is. True
46:50
belonging requires us to be who we are. Be who
46:53
we are. Yeah. And I think that can take a while
46:57
for so many of us. And I think. being who we
47:01
are that that has so many different there's so
47:04
many different ways to disentangle that right
47:05
according to time context who we are with yeah
47:10
where we're at in our lives and to kind of jump
47:14
a little bit and kind of in my own timeline so
47:17
we talked about me being homeschooled in middle
47:19
high school years, I kept myself very isolated.
47:21
I was trying to really make sense of like, how
47:23
do I fit in the world? Because I feel very different
47:26
than when I started community college. I was
47:29
extremely scared. I was thinking, gosh, like,
47:31
how am I going to navigate, you know, taking
47:34
college courses, being in an unfamiliar space.
47:38
and feeling like I could thrive. At the time,
47:40
I wanted to be a journalist. Ultimately, things
47:43
pivoted, but I was still able to harness my passion
47:47
for writing into a research -related career in
47:50
education. But going back to this point of being
47:53
who you are, I think for so long, I held on to
47:56
this notion of that. Much like Quasimodo. So
48:00
try to full circle. I was afraid of like, would
48:03
people judge me for being different? And for
48:06
me, how that showed up as a 17 year old was like,
48:09
I was very quiet. I was very introverted. I still
48:12
had my distinct passions, but I didn't know how
48:15
people would respond to that. And ultimately,
48:18
I was starting a college in a space where a lot
48:22
of people were significantly older than me. through
48:26
a variety of different student leadership roles
48:29
that I unexpectedly found myself in and ultimately
48:32
making friends, which was really meaningful to
48:36
me. I felt more at ease with, you know, the young
48:39
guy who I was becoming and kind of the culmination
48:43
of this that I talk about in a lot of different
48:45
spaces because I view it as like a defining moment
48:48
in my life was I was selected as our student
48:50
commencement speaker and I was in front of a
48:53
couple thousand people. I pretty much rehearsed
48:56
this whole seven, 10 minute speech. And I basically
49:01
told folks about my autism and they didn't know
49:03
it. I kept it very tight to the vest. And I wanted
49:07
to kind of illustrate that, you know, we all
49:10
have different identities and life experiences
49:12
and not everybody always sees them or understands
49:17
them. You know, we're all seeking to expand our
49:20
lives through education and pushing ourselves
49:22
and challenging ourselves. And this is how it
49:25
shows up for me. And belonging is being who you
49:27
are. I had reached a point almost like some not
49:31
quite self -actualization, but a point where
49:34
I felt a lot more comfortable with who I was
49:36
and where I could be more transparent about that.
49:40
And that has shaped a lot of subsequent experiences
49:43
where. I've tried to create spaces or be a part
49:47
of spaces where folks can feel authentic and
49:51
expressing themselves and in learning and being
49:55
around others who sometimes have shared identities,
49:58
but not always. I'm in a field of study where
50:00
there's a lot of introspection and reflexivity.
50:04
So I do research on autistic college students
50:06
and disability and higher ed community colleges.
50:09
So a lot of the stuff that I. Explore is closely
50:12
connected to my own lived experiences, but I
50:14
also realize that not everybody in those spaces
50:19
I inherently relate to or understand or can appreciate
50:21
because there's different experiences. But ultimately,
50:24
it's this notion of wanting to create belonging.
50:28
And that shapes both the spaces that I have control
50:31
over, like a classroom or a research team, but
50:34
also joining a space and wanting to elevate those
50:39
considerations. So being who we are is important,
50:44
but it requires folks who are holding some degree
50:47
of influence to set those norms and not just
50:50
talk the talk, but walk the walk. And that's
50:54
not always an easy thing to do. Yeah, for sure.
50:58
So when we go back to that commencement speech,
51:01
what did that feel like emotionally? leading
51:04
up to it as you're putting together what your
51:07
speech is going to be and going to be talking
51:09
about those things? What kind of emotions were
51:11
experiencing leading up to it? Yeah, I mean,
51:14
I don't know if I knew from the onset when I've
51:16
selected that I was going to go quite that angle,
51:18
but I felt like in many ways I had proven myself
51:21
to others through, I mean, I led our campus newspaper,
51:25
I led our honor society. I was very visible on
51:30
campus and I felt like, you know what? I feel
51:33
empowered and I feel empowered for people to
51:36
hear about a different piece of me. People didn't
51:39
know and not even back then in that context realized
51:42
the amount of stress that I carried with me in
51:46
trying to show up in spaces where I looked like
51:50
I had a lot of it together, but I was just filled
51:53
with anxiety and uncertainty. And so for me,
51:59
I wanted to utilize that as a as an opportunity
52:03
for empowerment, not only for myself, but also
52:05
for others. And I mean, for all intents and purposes,
52:09
this was 14 years ago now, and a lot's changed.
52:12
And, you know, who knows who I graduated with
52:16
or who was there, like, to what extent anything
52:19
I said may have carried with them. But for me,
52:24
at the very least, it was a chance to feel like
52:27
that I literally had the stage. I had a lot of
52:29
influence in that moment. And I think it's with
52:33
that spirit that I try to carry with me in my
52:36
subsequent work in roles where I want everybody's
52:42
voice to matter and to feel like that they have
52:44
the opportunity to share it, even if it's not
52:46
standing in front of a podium, but rather, you
52:48
know, maybe it's, you know, in a meeting among
52:51
one small business for someone to, you know.
52:54
raise their hand and question something that
52:56
feels unsettling to them or to just elevate a
52:59
question in a classroom. Little things make a
53:02
difference. And if I can play a role in fostering
53:06
settings that empower others, great. And also,
53:08
I know that I may not always do things right
53:11
along those lines in the spaces where I do carry
53:14
that power. But anybody who knows me personally
53:17
realizes my open us to adapt and hear others'
53:22
feedback and to try to create a constructive
53:24
shared space, if you will. Well, I mean, I guess
53:28
what I'd say, let me toot your horn a little
53:30
bit. I mean, certainly I'm sure that there was
53:33
people there who were impacted by what you shared.
53:36
And I'll go with our yes and. And like you said,
53:40
you've shared it now since. It's shaped and affected
53:42
what you've done since then. And you have created
53:46
a career. out of of looking out for those people
53:50
and helping uh people who may have felt that
53:53
way or may feel that way and so you have your
53:55
your career in academia doing that and you also
53:58
have your podcast where you do that where you
54:00
i i think really help people to build a sense
54:04
of belonging when they might not otherwise help
54:06
people who might feel a little bit marginalized
54:08
to feel like they've got a place where they can
54:09
come where they can be heard uh and that their
54:12
their their impact matters that who they are
54:17
and that everybody has something to contribute.
54:20
So certainly that had impact then and continues
54:24
to have impact in what you're doing with your
54:26
career. So sorry, I said to toot your horn a
54:28
little bit, Brad, okay? We got to give you some
54:29
credit here, my man. Before we move to our this
54:35
or that, wanted to get any kind of final thoughts
54:37
you had about the hunchback of Notre Dame and
54:40
about this kind of topic that we've been talking
54:43
about. Yeah, no, I think it's a beautiful story.
54:47
And the reason why I felt like that was because
54:49
when we're kind of talking about potential directions
54:51
to take the conversation and I mentioned Hunchback
54:54
because it's very much always resonated with
54:56
me. Like Quasimodo is kind of the archetype of
54:59
someone who feels like an outsider, who feels,
55:02
I think, some degree of shame for being different
55:06
and fear of being treated poorly by others. And
55:11
his story, I think, connects with a lot of people
55:14
who are marginalized, especially folks who are
55:17
disabled in the disability community. It's a
55:20
story that I think has also connected with a
55:22
lot of folks in the LGBTQ plus community for
55:27
this notion of like masking, like trying to put
55:30
on a different image just out of acceptance and
55:34
self -protection. So there's different video
55:37
essays and things online about. how Hunchback
55:39
shows up in kind of those contexts. And so for
55:42
me, and also as someone who's gay and who experiences
55:47
different forms of non -apparent, maybe marginalization,
55:50
I'm very mindful of stories that have that transferable
56:01
quality. And I think Hunchback is one of those.
56:03
And I think the takeaway is it's a story that
56:06
really preaches um understanding and acceptance
56:09
um and also this idea of going outside of your
56:14
comfort zone and putting yourself out there um
56:17
so i i think it has great value i don't think
56:20
as a child i could have uh interpreted it from
56:23
from that lens and i don't know if a lot maybe
56:26
some kids are I do believe in the power of children
56:29
being very intuitive and seeing things more than
56:33
what maybe their parents or older people would
56:35
expect of them. But I think as I've gone older,
56:38
it's had further meaning because of those very
56:42
pervasive values and priorities. Yeah, totally
56:48
agree. Yeah, it's a great way to wrap that up.
56:49
Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for
56:51
sharing your thoughts about. um about this wonderful
56:54
movie and and how it relates to you the ways
56:57
that you uh have experienced things throughout
56:59
your life and being very vulnerable with us we
57:01
really appreciate that i think that there's a
57:03
power in story and in both story disney stories
57:06
but also in real stories too uh and the ways
57:08
that people can connect with it um so thank you
57:11
for sharing that so let's move to a couple fun
57:13
segments Okay, so our first is going to be this
57:16
or that. So just ask you this or that, and you
57:19
kind of give me your thoughts, and we'll see
57:21
where it goes. We'll see where it goes, okay?
57:23
First one is Bell Tower or Court of Miracles?
57:30
Oh, I thought the Bell Tower would be a cool
57:33
place to be at in particular. Yeah, I mean, just
57:38
the architecture is stunning. So I think for
57:40
that alone, that stands out for me. Yeah, I like
57:43
that. I like that answer. That's a good one.
57:45
Okay, here's the next one. This one might be
57:46
tough. It might not be, but it might be tough.
57:49
Quasimodo or Esmeralda? Oh, they're both great
57:55
characters. Let's just say Esmeralda. I think
57:58
I really think I mean, I love the characters,
58:02
but I also love the voice performances. And I
58:04
think Demi Moore doesn't get enough credit for
58:06
her just really. like sensitive but also fun
58:10
voice work uh as esmeralda so yeah yeah terrific
58:14
character she does a great job with that one
58:16
for sure um okay a gargoyle sidekick or a human
58:21
sidekick the gargoyles get so much flack they're
58:25
fun i like them i do too they they add some levity
58:30
yeah they do i i'm not mistaken was it jason
58:33
alexander that was one of them he did hugo Yeah,
58:37
that was back in like peak Seinfeld days. It
58:40
was. I was a huge Seinfeld guy. I was like, I
58:44
was born in the 80s. I was born in the early
58:45
80s. So I was very much like, I'm starting to
58:48
watch shows. My granddad watched a lot. Like
58:50
he would record on a VHS and we'd go to his house
58:53
on Sundays and he would like, so excited to put
58:55
the VHS in to like show a Seinfeld and we sit
58:58
there and watch it with them. So I love me some
59:00
Jason Alexander. He's a great actor. Okay, how
59:04
about Stained Glass Window? or the bell tower
59:08
view oh boy i do love stained glass windows um
59:15
even if i don't always love the content of it
59:17
if it's like something that doesn't even resonate
59:20
with me i think it's just such a cool form of
59:23
artistry so yeah yeah i agree i when i I didn't
59:27
really understand how stained glass was made.
59:29
And then when I've seen a couple of things showing
59:31
what they've got to do to make it and you're
59:33
right, like the artistry of making it is just
59:35
very impressive. I was impressed when somebody
59:37
could do something that I know I can't do. I
59:39
was like, wow, that's really good. That's amazing.
59:44
OK, how about we're going to widen this a little
59:45
bit? How about fiction or nonfiction book? OK,
59:50
so most of the books, almost all the books I
59:52
think behind me are all Disney nonfiction books.
59:55
So that's I even though I enjoy the stories associated
1:00:01
with the world of Disney in terms of from a visual
1:00:05
storytelling fashion, in terms of reading, I'm
1:00:08
more of a nonfiction guy. OK, nonfiction it is.
1:00:11
I like it. And the last this or that physical
1:00:14
book or audio book? Physical. I like being able
1:00:18
to hold something in my hands. You like the tactile
1:00:19
physical book. Yeah. And I like being able to
1:00:22
have them on a bookcase, man. See, that's the
1:00:24
part I miss out on because I don't. Because I'm
1:00:26
an audiobook guy through and through. I've got
1:00:28
hundreds of titles in my Audible. But then I
1:00:31
don't get to have stuff in my bookshelf. I look
1:00:34
at a couple of books. Although I did notice,
1:00:36
and I noticed this when we talked before, we
1:00:38
do have one in common, The Dream Chasing by Bob
1:00:40
Weiss. I've got that one as well. Love that book.
1:00:43
Bob Weiss, such an inspiration. That guy is amazing.
1:00:47
All right, let's hit our rapid fire before we
1:00:50
get to our three actual takeaways in the last
1:00:52
couple of minutes we have. So favorite Disney
1:00:54
movie? Would be Toy Story. Okay, I meant to ask
1:00:57
you. So Toy Story is your favorite. When I went
1:01:01
back and listened to your very first episode
1:01:03
of Notably Disney, you mentioned that Toy Story
1:01:05
4 was about to come out. And now we have Toy
1:01:08
Story 5. I want to get your quick take. Toy Story
1:01:11
4, what did you actually think? And what do you
1:01:13
think about Toy Story 5? Toy Story 4 is underwhelming
1:01:17
and I think disappointing because a lot of the
1:01:21
characters that we love get kind of pushed to
1:01:24
the side. Even though the Woody and Bo story
1:01:26
is endearing, it's like... You basically have
1:01:30
like Slinky Dog or Rex have like a couple lines
1:01:32
each. And it's like, that's not satisfying. Yeah,
1:01:36
Toy Story 4 has its value. And I think in the
1:01:38
pantheon of animated films, it's a great film.
1:01:41
But because it doesn't hold up to its predecessors,
1:01:46
it's like, it's the weakest one of the five.
1:01:48
Five, I think, bumps things back up in a good
1:01:52
direction. nice full circle jesse story and there's
1:01:57
some connections to themes from the earlier films
1:01:59
i think it's a solid entry yeah i completely
1:02:03
agree i don't have anything to add because that
1:02:05
is so exactly the way that i felt about both
1:02:07
of them so we are spot on there all right this
1:02:10
is going to be a good one too because uh of the
1:02:12
themes of your podcast favorite disney song yeah
1:02:16
i don't think i have one um i don't think i have
1:02:18
one singular song give me a top five Yeah, my
1:02:22
top five, I was just going to say. So Out There
1:02:24
is in the top five. Incredible. Belle from Beauty
1:02:31
and the Beast, our opening five, six minute number.
1:02:34
So good. It's such a perfect start to that movie.
1:02:38
Oh, just yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Alan Menken had
1:02:41
some some rock and opening songs for some. So
1:02:45
I would also add Part of Your World from The
1:02:49
Little Mermaid. A Whole New World from Aladdin.
1:02:53
So Mencken pretty much just has it all covered.
1:02:57
And then I would probably add kind of more of
1:03:00
one of the older songs. I would go with When
1:03:02
You Wish Upon a Star because of the significance.
1:03:04
But I mean, it's kind of the emblematic Disney
1:03:08
song. It's the anthem, I should say. It's the
1:03:10
anthem. Yeah, that's a great list, Brett. That
1:03:14
is a terrific list. I love it. Okay, favorite
1:03:16
Disney princess? Belle. Bell, she's books. You
1:03:19
love books. So it totally makes sense. Yeah,
1:03:21
she's she's she's smart. She questions convention.
1:03:25
She she holds she's very firm in her values and
1:03:29
what matters. She's a she's a great role model
1:03:32
for any of us, men or women or or any other gender.
1:03:36
She's just just a terrific character. Yeah, she's
1:03:40
amazing. OK, favorite Disney park. I would probably
1:03:42
say Disneyland. in California, probably because
1:03:45
of the typical answer, right? It was Waltz Park.
1:03:48
He built it from scratch. It's evolved. It has
1:03:51
its flaws, but it has so much charm. Epcot's
1:03:53
a close second. Actually, I did my undergraduate
1:03:56
honors thesis on Epcot, and I love Epcot. Epcot's
1:04:00
had an identity crisis for a while, and that
1:04:03
makes it a little bit more challenging to...
1:04:06
um to embrace in quite the same ways because
1:04:08
it's just um it's disjointed but um i but i still
1:04:12
love epcot and what it represents disneyland
1:04:15
is most consistent in terms of um what it's aimed
1:04:19
to represent which is different worlds of fantasy
1:04:22
and tomorrow and um wonder adventure all the
1:04:26
things yeah great answers um okay favorite let's
1:04:32
go with the favorite disney book I don't know
1:04:36
if I can answer that. I feel like if I answer
1:04:39
it one way, like I might offend like other authors.
1:04:41
Maybe give me an under the radar pick. Maybe
1:04:44
something that our listeners maybe haven't picked
1:04:46
up that they could. Maybe something you've read
1:04:48
recently. You're like, hey, this was really great.
1:04:50
Yeah, it's not a recent one that I've read, but
1:04:53
I don't know how under the radar it is. But many
1:04:55
folks are probably familiar with the incredible
1:04:58
Leslie Iwerks documentary, The Imagineering Story.
1:05:02
Everybody may not know is that there's a complimentary
1:05:04
book that's hundreds of pages that expands the
1:05:11
scope and level of depth of the different attractions
1:05:17
and parks and Imagineers that are showcased.
1:05:20
It's a fantastic nonfiction read. It is a tome
1:05:24
and it will take a while to read, but it really
1:05:27
uncovers a lot that. the documentary only scratches
1:05:31
the surface of because of just length and format
1:05:34
and whatnot so i would say check out that book
1:05:36
well we're going to put a link to that in the
1:05:39
show notes my producer will put that in our show
1:05:41
notes make sure we link that up so people can
1:05:42
find that well uh brett thank you so much for
1:05:45
being on thank you for spending your time with
1:05:47
us for having a little fun with us It's kind
1:05:50
of a closing. We always like to give our listeners
1:05:52
three actionable takeaways, something they could
1:05:54
put into effect in their lives today or this
1:05:57
week. What would be your three recommended actionable
1:06:00
takeaways? Yeah, yeah. And I was trying to think
1:06:05
of what would be good ones to hit on here. And
1:06:07
I think some of these. Most of these allude to
1:06:10
some topics we've already discussed, Ryan. I
1:06:12
think for one, a big part of my journey has been
1:06:16
just learning to do things on my own and kind
1:06:19
of coming into my own, taking certain agency
1:06:23
and advocacy for myself. And I think those are
1:06:25
universal themes. So I guess one actionable tool
1:06:30
is like realize you can do things on your own
1:06:33
and know that you have. resources that can support
1:06:35
you. So that goes back to the notion of like
1:06:37
creating a welcoming business or classroom or
1:06:40
atmosphere where you want to empower people to
1:06:43
feel like they can do stuff on their own, but
1:06:46
also like reassure them that like there are people
1:06:49
and tools that can and will support you. So I
1:06:53
want to really reinforce that. I also, and I
1:06:57
think the second item might or takeaway might
1:07:02
be applicable to our discussion in terms of,
1:07:04
I like to view every day as a learning experience
1:07:07
and see what you can take with you to future
1:07:09
situations. We're talking a lot about, you know,
1:07:13
empathizing with others and trying to support
1:07:17
others who may have different life experiences.
1:07:19
And that also relates to, like, if you say or
1:07:23
do something that's not quite right and trying
1:07:26
to make pivots to be more, you know, patient
1:07:31
with yourself and extend patience toward others
1:07:34
and be empathetic, all the things. So I try to,
1:07:38
especially when I have hard days, right, I try
1:07:40
to view each day as a learning experience. Like,
1:07:42
what did I come away from today in terms of a
1:07:43
conversation I had, something I learned from
1:07:46
others, something I discovered about myself.
1:07:50
I think that has a lot of universal value. And
1:07:54
then third takeaway was, like, challenge yourself
1:07:56
to think more of what you can accomplish. A lot
1:08:00
of my life, I think, and I think many people
1:08:03
can relate to this notion, is trying to defy
1:08:05
other expectations of what you could be. And
1:08:09
I think I had a lot of resources available to
1:08:12
me in terms of being able to work on the things
1:08:16
I had challenges with and also capitalizing on
1:08:19
my strengths. And that's something that I really
1:08:21
focus on in working with others is like, how
1:08:23
do we leverage what is... really unique and really
1:08:27
special and how do we try to work through, whether
1:08:31
it's like a skill or a particular thing about
1:08:34
students or whatever, like how do we try to adjust
1:08:37
the things that are not quite on par? And so
1:08:42
I really try to push others to think of like,
1:08:45
you can do a lot more than you believe. You just
1:08:48
need to be around people who foster that sentiment
1:08:51
and environment of building on strengths. And
1:08:55
I think that's something that we all can embrace.
1:08:59
There's so much more that we can do than we realize.
1:09:02
We just can't feel inhibited. So it comes down
1:09:06
to other people who carry more influence and
1:09:10
can support you to reinforce this notion. Yeah,
1:09:14
you can do a lot more. So you need that external
1:09:15
validation, but you also need it in here internally.
1:09:19
Yeah. I love it. That's absolutely fantastic.
1:09:22
And, you know, in the spirit of learning as well,
1:09:25
anybody who's listening to this, hopefully you're
1:09:26
taking notes. Hopefully you took some great things
1:09:29
away because this episode was just full of just
1:09:33
great things from Brett. And he was so gracious
1:09:35
to share his time with us today. Thank you so
1:09:37
much, Brett, for spending some great time with
1:09:41
us. Really looking forward to what people can
1:09:43
learn from you and from your experiences. So
1:09:45
thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure, Ryan. Really
1:09:48
appreciate the space that you create via this
1:09:51
podcast. I think it's a unique and special podcast
1:09:54
in the Disney universe and really elevating storytelling
1:09:57
and takeaways and lessons. So I appreciate being
1:10:00
part of the conversation. Thank you so much,
1:10:02
my man. As you leave this conversation, remember
1:10:06
that yes, the past can hurt and you can either
1:10:09
run from it or you can learn from it. So here's
1:10:13
to learning and finding joy in the journey. See
1:10:16
you real soon.