Latest / Future Christian / Nichole Torbitzky talks campus ministry and what the next generation needs from church.

Transcript

Nichole Torbitzky talks campus ministry and what the next generation needs from church. · Future Christian

0:06
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source
0:09
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church
0:11
into the 21st century.
0:15
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:24
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now here's your host, Loren Richmond, Junior.
0:33
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today
0:36
we're welcoming Reverend doctor Nicole Torbitsky.
0:39
Nicole is associate professor of religion and University
0:42
chaplain at Lindenwood University in St. Charles,
0:45
Missouri. Her current research investigates
0:48
whiteheadian notions related to christian atonement
0:50
theory. She serves as the editor for the center
0:53
for Process and Faith's lectionary commentary
0:56
series. She also serves as editor for
0:59
Lindenwood University's student research journal, the
1:02
Confluence. This interview was recorded
1:05
in person at the persuade preaching conference at St.
1:07
Andrew United Methodist Church. Let's welcome
1:10
Nicole to the show.
1:20
All right, welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Lauren Richmond,
1:23
junior, and I'm, um, pleased to be joined today by
1:26
the Reverend doctor Nicole Torbitzky. So
1:29
thanks so much for being here.
1:30
>> Nicole Torbitsky: I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
1:32
>> Loren: Yeah, we're actually recording in person at, uh,
1:35
St. Andrew United Methodist Church in
1:38
Highlands Ranch, Colorado, as a part of the
1:41
process and preaching conference right now.
1:43
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Open relational and process preaching conference.
1:45
>> Loren: Okay. And I guess tomorrow is like a whole new
1:48
conference.
1:50
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Uh, right. Another second conference hosted
1:53
by, uh, homebrewed Christianity and Tripp
1:55
Fuller, uh, on God after
1:58
deconstruction.
1:59
>> Loren: So a lot going on here, and,
2:01
uh, you know, I'm a church nerd, as I.
2:03
As I told Nicole. So part of me was just walking
2:06
through the space and checking it out this morning. Uh,
2:09
but talk about, share, if you would, anything else about
2:12
yourself you'd like our listeners to know about you.
2:14
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Well, recently I put a
2:17
book out on preaching and process, um,
2:20
with Jeff Wells, Vicki
2:23
Randall, and Thomas J. Ord. So we
2:25
edited a book with 68
2:29
authors who talk about how to
2:32
preach from the open, relational and crosses theological
2:34
perspective. And we're super excited about it. You can get it
2:37
on Amazon and any other bookseller, and I think
2:40
we.
2:40
>> Loren: Just walked by it, right?
2:41
>> Nicole Torbitsky: We did.
2:42
>> Loren: I'll say for our listeners, it is probably a couple inches thick. So
2:45
you're getting your money's worth with that purchase.
2:48
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Yeah, I think it's about 500 pages long, and there are
2:51
68 authors and 78 separate,
2:53
um, submissions. So there's a
2:56
lot of good stuff to read if you're a preacher or if you're interested in
2:59
exploring the practical applications of open, relational and
3:02
process theology.
3:03
>> Loren: Yeah. So, share, if you would, just kind of your faith journey, what
3:06
that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.
3:08
>> Nicole Torbitsky: So I was actually really lucky to grow
3:11
up United Church of Christ,
3:13
and it runs in my family, so we've
3:16
had a pastor in my family every other
3:19
generation since we came to the United States
3:22
back in the 18 hundreds.
3:24
>> Loren: Your family. Wow.
3:26
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And when I was 14 and
3:29
got my call, and my grandfather, who was a pastor,
3:32
was still living, and told him at one
3:34
Christmas, and I think I'm gonna. I think
3:37
I'm gonna go into the ministry, grandpa. And he
3:40
was so delighted. He was
3:43
so delighted. And we had a family tradition
3:46
of reading the nativity
3:49
stories out of Matthew and Luke, and
3:51
that year, he gave me the Bible.
3:53
>> Loren: Wow.
3:54
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And said, you read it now? And it was
3:57
wonderful.
3:58
>> Loren: Wow.
3:58
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And from there, it was, uh,
4:01
seminary in Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh theological Seminary, and
4:04
a PhD in Claremont at Claremont graduate University,
4:08
working with Roland Faber and John Cobb and
4:11
some of the greats. It was wonderful.
4:13
And then into
4:17
pastoral, uh, work, into church work, until I landed at
4:19
Lindenwood University, where I'm, um, both faculty
4:22
and the university chaplain. And it's
4:25
been quite the journey.
4:26
>> Loren: Yeah.
4:27
>> Nicole Torbitsky: For me, it was.
4:30
For me, it was mostly about
4:32
constructing rather than
4:34
deconstructing.
4:35
>> Loren: Huh.
4:36
>> Nicole Torbitsky: This is one of the things about
4:39
some of the mainline
4:41
protestant denominations. We have
4:44
a really hard time articulating
4:47
the theology that we've got.
4:49
And so when I went to
4:52
seminary, when I went on and did my PhD work, particularly when
4:55
I found Whitehead. Oh, man. This.
4:58
This provides a way to
5:01
understand the work that
5:04
my church has been doing. And so, for
5:07
me, it was a remarkable
5:10
epiphany of how to
5:13
understand this faith that I was gifted.
5:16
And so now I work with a lot of students, and they're
5:19
kind of in the deconstruction process, and I've
5:22
had to train myself to understand what that process
5:25
is, because I never had to do it. I grew up in a church
5:27
that was welcoming and wonderful and open and
5:30
accepting, and everybody, come, y'all. And God loves
5:33
everybody just where you are. And also, there's a
5:36
social justice component. And so, like,
5:39
it was a wonderful place to grow up. It
5:42
was the perfect church experience. My
5:45
church family was wonderful. They were so
5:48
supportive. And now I'm working
5:50
with a lot of students who have been hurt by their churches,
5:53
and this is. This is,
5:56
like, surprising to me. Not surprising, but it's
5:59
not my lived experience. So coming to
6:01
conferences like these, like the deconstruction
6:04
conferences and homebrew Christianity, where it's one of the things that they focus on a
6:07
lot has been real instructive to me
6:10
to help work with these people who haven't had the kind of
6:13
blessing in their church life that I have.
6:15
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that.
6:18
Um, I sort of have to, like, ask, like,
6:22
if you have grandkids, like, they're just kind of, like, dead to
6:25
rights, right.
6:27
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Well, I have to say, so my grandpa was, like,
6:30
a good, very kind of button down
6:32
pastor kind of church guy, and then my dad
6:35
was the epitome of the preacher's kid.
6:37
>> Loren: Right, right. I mean, it's
6:40
funny just to think about. I imagine you have some
6:43
familiarity with, like, family systems theory.
6:45
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right, right, yeah.
6:48
Yep. It's hard to get away from trends play out.
6:51
And as it turns out, I've got and preachers kids.
6:54
>> Loren: Yeah.
6:55
>> Nicole Torbitsky: God bless them, they'll be fine. And they
6:58
both tell me, though, that they're not having children. So
7:01
maybe it ends with me.
7:03
>> Loren: Maybe. Well,
7:06
I don't know if I can say this, but for the sake of
7:09
the ministry, hopefully
7:12
someone has a kid there, here and there.
7:14
>> Nicole Torbitsky: I might just run into one eventually, and we'll work our family
7:17
systems magic and get another preacher.
7:19
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, any spiritual
7:22
practices you want to share that are meaningful for you?
7:25
>> Nicole Torbitsky: So, part of
7:27
my ministry at my university,
7:30
Lyndenwood University in St. Charles, Missouri,
7:33
is as the university chaplain.
7:36
And so I take time every
7:39
morning to do a
7:42
little yoga, uh,
7:45
make sure that I sit quietly, do my kind of five
7:48
minutes of mindfulness. But all of that
7:51
feels like a prelude to the time I get to spend in
7:53
prayer. And there's a
7:56
lot to pray for at a university.
7:59
So the higher education in
8:02
general is in a real area, uh, of transition
8:05
right now. We're in a real time of change. So I spend a lot
8:08
of time praying for my university and for higher education
8:11
in general and for the administration at my university.
8:14
And then, though, like, down
8:17
to the struggles that my students have.
8:20
And as we all know, loneliness
8:23
is epidemic among young
8:26
people right now, and mental health issues are
8:28
epidemic among this demographic,
8:31
like the twenties or so.
8:33
>> Loren: Right.
8:34
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And I see a lot of it, a lot of young people
8:37
come into my office and, like, I need to
8:39
understand why this is happening or what's
8:42
going on, or I can't do my
8:45
church anymore because of all of the abuse.
8:48
And, uh, does God still love me?
8:52
Is Jesus still walking with me
8:54
on top of all of the other kind of abuse and mental health
8:57
issues that I'm not a trained counselor, so those aren't things
9:00
that I can deal with, but I can talk people through
9:03
why God loves you, even if you're not going to the
9:06
church. That was abusive. And I spend a lot of
9:09
time in prayer in the mornings on
9:11
them. Right. And as a process
9:14
theologian, I've been asked,
9:17
well, if, you know, if God isn't in
9:19
control, then why would you pray?
9:22
Well, if God was in control, why would
9:25
you pray?
9:26
>> Loren: M that's a good answer.
9:27
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Um, so instead,
9:30
I believe in a, uh, God that is
9:32
relational with me, that doesn't have
9:35
the future all planned out and set in stone
9:38
in a world where we really do have free will and God is
9:41
responsive to the events that occur
9:44
as we move through the world. And so why wouldn't
9:47
I pray? Hey, God, this person is
9:50
struggling and they need a lot of help. And let
9:52
me, let me add to the goodness of
9:55
existence by lifting them up,
9:58
by adding
10:01
to this next layer of
10:03
becoming of the world, the goodness that I intend for
10:06
them, that I hope for them, that I hope that you hope for
10:09
them my prayer, that
10:12
they might be able to grasp the next best possible,
10:15
that their families, that their churches, that their
10:18
education might be open to those
10:21
possibilities for the next. For the next. For the
10:24
next. Because each one of these students is amazing
10:27
and has so much to offer the world. So, yeah,
10:30
I spend a lot of time in prayer, and at least from my
10:32
perspective, prayer from an, uh, open,
10:35
relational and process perspective is much more
10:38
effective than throwing
10:41
our, uh, impotent
10:44
prayers at a God who's already got all of the power
10:47
into everything decided.
10:48
>> Loren: Wow. Yeah, that's powerful. Thanks
10:51
for sharing that. That's powerful.
10:54
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And it helps get through the day.
10:57
Right. It helps me orient toward
11:01
the good that I know can come out
11:04
of the work that I do. Because
11:06
sometimes, sometimes, and just like
11:09
everyone, sometimes I think what is
11:11
going on, right? And that prayer
11:14
time, that time and quiet meditation, uh,
11:17
and moving meditation helps
11:20
to restore. Right? Like it
11:23
sounds so cliche, it helps to restore my soul.
11:26
I'm ready for the next day. I highly recommend it, by
11:29
the way. The yoga and meditation and spending
11:32
some time in prayer, it orients us towards
11:35
the world in a different, more hopeful way.
11:36
>> Loren: I think that's good stuff. I'm
11:39
reminded, I don't know if you can think of the, uh.
11:42
I can't remember who this quote comes from. Perhaps
11:45
this comes to mind for you, but there's this
11:48
statement by some guy, somebody in
11:51
the past, who's something like, I'm so busy today, I
11:54
need to commit so many hours of prayer
11:57
who was that? I can't remember. But, uh,
12:00
isn't that like, isn't that like the.
12:03
The pull, the struggle we have, right. So
12:06
much in our modern society that it's like, we
12:09
have so much to do that we just
12:11
gotta. We gotta start cranking. We gotta start
12:14
hustling.
12:15
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right? We gotta sit down with the tasks in my task list.
12:19
Right. This morning when I let my phone start giving me
12:22
notifications, I think more than 100 popped up.
12:24
>> Loren: Oh, my goodness.
12:27
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And it would be. It's real tempting. It's
12:30
real easy to want to just start trying to
12:33
knock things off the task list.
12:34
>> Loren: I love marking off the checklist.
12:36
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Sometimes I'll write things down on my task list just to check it
12:39
off.
12:39
>> Loren: Me too.
12:41
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Oh, it feels so good. Yes.
12:44
And I've learned over trial and
12:47
error that I am actually more effective if I
12:50
take those moments to make sure that my body and mind
12:52
are ready for a day.
12:55
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm looking over your shoulder here.
12:57
Psalm 46 ten in the classroom. Recording,
13:00
recording at be still and know that I am God.
13:03
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Oh, how interesting that we ended up with that one.
13:06
>> Loren: Yeah.
13:07
>> Nicole Torbitsky: When I got my call, I was
13:09
young, I was 14. And
13:12
I started asking the
13:15
pastors in my life. So my grandfather and my youth pastor
13:18
and the main pastor at my
13:21
church, how did you know? How did
13:24
you know that you got your call? And
13:27
my youth pastor looked at me. She,
13:30
ah, answered me. She told me about her story.
13:33
And I kept pressing. I'm like, but, yeah,
13:36
but how did you know what was the sign? What was the
13:38
thing? And she's like, nicole, if you're looking for a,
13:41
uh, burning bush, you're looking for the wrong
13:44
thing, right? M. That's not how the
13:47
discernment process goes. And she quoted
13:50
that. And it has been one
13:53
of the scriptures that has followed me my entire life.
13:56
Right? Because God, I didn't.
13:59
In my call story, I didn't have this mountaintop experience.
14:02
I didn't get a burning bush. I didn't get the, like,
14:05
um, massive moment of clarity where
14:08
you turn from one way of living that was drawing you away from
14:11
God and repent and turn the other way. I didn't have that
14:14
experience. I had the small, still voice of God,
14:17
the gentle voice of God who would not let me
14:20
go. Right? I got to college. I knew I had a call. I got to
14:23
college. I'm like, oh, uh, maybe my gifts would better serve
14:26
the world if I were a doctor or a lawyer. I can work for justice
14:29
or I can work for people's health. And
14:32
there was a God who constantly called
14:35
me back, right. This love that would not let me
14:38
go. No, I have something for you to do,
14:40
Nicole. And
14:43
come this way. Right, Laura, lead this way.
14:46
Right. Follow. And it was always
14:49
God's still small voice. God has never been a bully with
14:52
me, which is one of the reasons why
14:55
process, open relational process theology
14:59
resonated with me. So when I finally got into my
15:01
college class, I took a class, uh, on Christianity
15:04
and in my undergraduate
15:07
coursework, and we went
15:09
through the ancients, and we went through the
15:12
medievals, and we went through some of the modern theologians,
15:15
and this professor ended the class
15:17
with a little unit on whitehead.
15:21
And he was so in
15:24
over his head, like, he had.
15:27
He did his best. God bless.
15:28
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
15:30
>> Nicole Torbitsky: But I was hooked. Was
15:32
hooked. And I went to the library at
15:35
my Truman, uh, state university in northeastern
15:38
Missouri, and I found the unedited
15:41
version of process and reality and
15:44
process. And the edited version of process and reality is
15:47
ridiculous. The unedited version was nearly
15:49
impossible. I think I only stood, like, understood,
15:52
like, three quarters of what I read. But I got
15:55
that book open, and I sat down in the stacks, and they,
15:58
like, they shut the library lights off. They're
16:01
like, you gotta leave. Like, oh, can we check it out before I
16:04
go?
16:05
>> Loren: Right?
16:05
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And I was hooked, and it was
16:08
this, right? God. For open
16:11
relational and process theologians, God isn't a
16:13
bully, right? God is
16:16
a dance partner.
16:18
God doesn't coerce us into doing things.
16:21
God invites us. It's that still,
16:24
small voice that said to me,
16:27
nicole, I got a mission for you. Right. It's that
16:30
still, small voice, I think, that leads students
16:33
into my office. Hey, I'm struggling with this.
16:36
Can we talk this out, then? That's the way God has
16:39
always worked for me. And I understand that it doesn't work that
16:42
way for everyone, because there
16:45
might be people in situations where you need kind of a
16:48
kick in the pants, and
16:51
that lore might come harder. Right? It
16:54
might come louder. Um. But even
16:56
in those moments, I don't think that there's any
16:59
coercion that we can still say, I'm
17:02
going to continue down a path that's destructive. Cause I'm not
17:04
ready yet. Right. And
17:07
God remains with us. God remains faithful to
17:10
us, even when we make choices
17:13
that are destructive both to us and the people
17:16
around us and our world.
17:18
God sees it and laments it
17:21
and invites us to better.
17:23
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:24
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And as Marjorie Suhaki likes to say,
17:27
sometimes the best possible for a particular
17:30
situation still is pretty bad, right?
17:33
If you've been walking down a bad path for a really
17:35
long time. Sometimes the only
17:38
thing that you can do is not the worst thing.
17:41
Yeah, but then if we make that right
17:43
choice, right. If we make that one right choice, that still is pretty
17:46
crummy. Then we've opened up a whole new set of
17:49
possibilities for making better choices. And so God
17:52
walks with us and calls us onto those better
17:54
choices for each moment so that hopefully, with
17:57
God's help, with God's companionship,
18:00
like, oh, uh, like the silly footprints poem. Right.
18:03
>> Loren: Yeah.
18:03
>> Nicole Torbitsky: We have a companion who walks through it with us and
18:06
calls us to better and better and better
18:09
if we're willing to answer that call. And that's
18:12
grace, right? That's grace for every moment, every
18:15
moment of our life, we get that grace.
18:18
>> Loren: Well, this is great.
18:21
Um, I want to ask, and I'm kind
18:24
of just throwing off our script here, so hopefully you're
18:27
okay with that. I know you weren't too locked in. Anyway,
18:32
this will kind of lead into what I was hoping to talk about somewhat
18:34
too. But I'm thinking about, you
18:37
know, you said you wrestled with a
18:40
choice. Do I pursue being a
18:43
doctor or a lawyer? Can I
18:46
do more good in the world? Yet
18:49
you clearly have chosen to
18:51
do ministry, at least as
18:54
I see it. We live in a context,
18:57
societally, where
18:59
whether God exists or not is, uh,
19:02
you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but less and less
19:05
people live as if even God exists.
19:09
And even for those, I think, who do, there's this
19:12
idea that, like, why would I want
19:15
to waste my time in church
19:18
when I could do more good in the world by
19:21
being a doctor or a
19:23
lawyer? So hopefully I'm not
19:26
misinterpreting here, but I'm certainly of the opinion that,
19:29
like, ministry really matters.
19:31
So I guess maybe a two part
19:34
question here. Like, do you see this kind of dynamic? And
19:37
b, if someone comes to you and it's like,
19:40
hey, I feel it's called to ministry, but it feels
19:43
like a, uh, waste of my time or not
19:45
effective use of, because, again, the hustle. Right.
19:48
We gotta be the most productive and
19:50
efficient.
19:52
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. Right. Okay,
19:55
so, yes. So society
19:58
is moving away from.
20:02
It's moving away from the way church
20:05
was done up until about the
20:08
1980s. Right. The 1970s and 1980s is when
20:11
church membership started to fall off in the United States.
20:13
>> Loren: Right.
20:14
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And it seems to me that that's
20:17
right about the time that hustle culture became a
20:20
real thing. And so get up on Sunday
20:23
mornings and take your kids to sports, because sports
20:25
make us. They indoctrinate the values
20:29
into children that we want in american
20:31
society.
20:32
>> Loren: Yeah.
20:33
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. Teamwork and go get it ness
20:36
and competitiveness. Okay.
20:39
>> Loren: And it's fine. I love sports.
20:41
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. Sports are kind of great, and all of those things are
20:44
really decent things to do, like teamwork. And there's nothing wrong with
20:47
competitiveness so long as we're
20:50
what's, uh, good at being competitive. Right. There's
20:53
kind of good competitive and bad competitive, right?
20:56
Uh, yeah.
20:57
>> Loren: I mean, sportsmanship, I would say, matters.
20:59
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Yes, it does. So all of these things are very
21:02
good civil values.
21:05
These are civil values, yes. And
21:08
they're not necessarily christian values, even
21:10
though in the United States today, there are lots of people who
21:13
would like to tell you that those civil values are actually christian
21:16
values. Right. Um, and once again, there's nothing wrong with
21:19
those civil values. Right. They're great values, and yes, we need to inculcate
21:22
them. But this move
21:24
toward the go getter kind. Ah.
21:27
Of capitalist, whereas we're moving into kind of
21:30
this late capitalist stage, maybe,
21:33
hopefully
21:37
drew people away from the
21:40
community. The responsibility,
21:44
the
21:46
contemplative
21:49
aspects, the slowness, and
21:52
also the humility of what it means to
21:55
be in church life together. And those
21:57
are also very good values.
22:01
And I think as a culture, as we've moved away
22:03
from this, we've lost some of
22:06
those good things. And church and
22:09
churches, in response, have,
22:12
um, upped their game. Right. So we've
22:15
moved from church
22:18
2.0, which I like to call kind of mainstream
22:22
protestant denominational worship. Right. Church 2.0, to
22:24
church 3.0, uh, which is
22:27
very interactive and very
22:29
entertaining.
22:30
>> Loren: Yeah.
22:31
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And once again, nothing wrong with church
22:33
3.0. I think it was a good response to
22:36
what we saw happening in the eighties and seventies, eighties and nineties
22:39
in the United States. And also, though, it
22:42
didn't really stem the tide,
22:45
and there's a real thirst for
22:48
connection to God in the world, even among those
22:51
people who are like, I'll never, ever go to a church,
22:54
even those who are, like, not hurt by a church. I understand
22:57
those who deconstruct, and they're not going back, and
23:00
I understand why. But lots of people weren't raised in the church
23:03
and have no desire, because it doesn't.
23:05
It's not even church 3.0 isn't
23:08
scratching that spiritual need for a lot of people.
23:11
So there's still a call in the world.
23:14
One of the things that we try to do, like, um, in
23:17
the preaching book that I just edited in conferences like
23:20
this, is how to help
23:22
scratch that spiritual itch that's
23:26
probably not the way I want to say it,
23:27
huh? Fill that spiritual
23:30
need. Not everyone,
23:32
apparently, but lots and lots of people in the United
23:35
States are desiring of the
23:38
community, of the spiritual
23:41
connection. And right now, churches in
23:44
America don't seem to have the formula
23:46
to reach that. And I think
23:49
this is one of the reasons why the loneliness pandemic has
23:52
gotten so bad. Yeah, church
23:55
used to be the place where everybody went, right?
23:58
And even if you weren't particularly religious,
24:01
you still went to church. Cause that's where your
24:04
community was, right. M and we've lost a lot of
24:07
community. I think that church can
24:09
still fill that spot. Cause it's
24:12
not just community and human companionship. Cause we've
24:15
also seen things like membership, um,
24:18
in like bowling leagues and Boy.
24:21
>> Loren: Scouts, VFW,
24:23
you know, all these, all of that.
24:25
>> Nicole Torbitsky: So as we've gotten more individualistic, we've lost
24:28
our sense of community. It m might be one of the reasons why we're
24:31
dealing with so much division in the United States right now.
24:34
>> Loren: Yeah, I believe it.
24:35
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And also then we lost that spiritual
24:38
connection to each other and to
24:40
God. And I think we're in the process
24:43
of figuring out
24:46
how to rebuild those
24:48
connections. And for some people, like,
24:51
they're still doing church 1.0, they're still doing church
24:54
2.0, they're still doing church 3.0. And that's really
24:57
great. We've got this whole group of people
24:59
now that I come into contact with a lot in my
25:02
work who are deconstructing,
25:05
um, or who were never members of a church and are really suspicious
25:08
of it. And this is the group that I'm interested in, because
25:11
the people who are the nuns, the n o n e
25:14
s, continue to grow, but
25:17
still want spiritual connection. And so this is the
25:19
group that I'm interested in. And I think
25:22
that open relational and process theology
25:25
can help make sense of the kind of spiritual
25:28
connection that people are looking for. Because sometimes the
25:31
christian God gets real zeus.
25:35
And that is easy to reject. Uh, when we
25:38
start to talk about ORPt
25:42
open relational and process theology, we
25:45
start to get into imagining a divine that
25:47
is with this world, that doesn't leave us
25:50
alone, that helps make sense of
25:53
evolution and science,
25:56
uh, our psychology. Right. All
25:59
of this makes sense when we start to look at this metaphysic of the
26:02
way the world works. And I think that it has a lot to
26:05
offer to those people who are seeking.
26:07
>> Loren: Let's talk about, or let me say
26:10
real quickly, I was just listening to a, ah, podcast. Simon
26:13
Sinek, um, really
26:15
powerful, talking about loneliness and he was
26:18
saying he's of the opinion,
26:21
um, the increase in loneliness has led to the
26:24
suspicion of others. When we're less
26:27
connected, we're more suspicious. And then
26:30
his guest, who was a rabbi, shared this really,
26:33
really powerful story of,
26:35
uh, ritual. It's hard to
26:38
describe grieving someone,
26:41
uh, through a faith community. Really powerful. Uh, I
26:44
forget what the title was, but if you look up Simon, uh,
26:47
Sinek's optimist something optimist
26:50
podcast, I don't remember what it is.
26:52
Um, came to mind. I'm also thinking
26:55
about, I'll use your
26:58
word, the spiritual need, the
27:00
spiritual hunger in people. Um, I had
27:03
a conversation recently with a guy named Dave Bowden,
27:06
who's in the UK, comes
27:09
from more evangelical tradition. But this is very much
27:12
the kind of work he's doing
27:15
there in a context that's more post
27:18
christian than we are here in the States.
27:21
About, um, trying to
27:25
imprecisely your words here, that, scratch that itch.
27:28
I know it's imprecise, but I like the metaphor, the
27:31
image, uh, because I guess I believe there's
27:34
an itch. Um, and I think
27:37
we talk about, to me, I'm a kid
27:40
of the nineties, my real faith formation,
27:43
where it was all about, um, who's the
27:46
Mc? I'm thinking of? It's not Macarthur, it's, uh.
27:49
Gosh, I can't remember his name. Evidence that
27:51
McDowell of, uh, Josh McDowell. Evidence
27:54
that demands a verdict. It was very much, and again,
27:57
I grew up in a fundamentalist
27:59
evangelical space. I don't know if it was like this in
28:02
mainline context, but very much about apologetics.
28:05
And to me, it seems like today,
28:08
if you were to go with someone who came in who's
28:11
a nun, and be like, here's all.
28:13
Let's lay out all the facts, they'd just be like, shut
28:16
up. I don't know.
28:18
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Absolutely. So,
28:22
as a member of the United Church of Christ, which is
28:25
a very open and affirming, accepting
28:29
denomination, um, I get,
28:31
I am lucky to have conversations with people who
28:34
believe that I don't follow Jesus,
28:38
and they're going to bring me into the fold and
28:41
save me, and I appreciate their hearts. I do.
28:45
Uh, and the kind of apologetics that they
28:47
use is, uh, unconvincing to me.
28:50
>> Loren: Yeah.
28:51
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And it is to
28:54
the nuns as well, of course.
28:57
And I see it. I teach a class on
29:00
science and religion, m and people
29:03
who are believers who come in leave
29:06
believers, and people
29:08
who are not believers, when they come into this
29:11
class, leave non believers.
29:15
So apologetics, it only works.
29:17
I think on people who are predisposed
29:20
or who are looking for community.
29:23
>> Loren: Yeah.
29:24
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And we do have.
29:25
>> Loren: I mean, I think that's. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I feel like that's exactly what we're
29:28
seeing right now with, like, similar to this. Like,
29:31
uh. I don't even know what the right word is, but, like, these m the
29:33
young men who are just going, like, hard, right?
29:37
Like, they're not. Are they really, like, going, like,
29:40
hard right. After all these. I don't even know the names because, like,
29:42
they're so much more convincing or they can find
29:45
community.
29:46
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. And I see this at my university
29:49
as well. So lots of. Lots of seekers or
29:52
non believers are very lonely. They're
29:55
freshman year on campus. And as much as my
29:58
university attempts to draw people in to, like,
30:01
come and have community, and here's all of these activities and here's
30:04
things to do. There are always people who are
30:06
resistant to joining group
30:09
things, uh, for whatever reasons they've
30:12
got. And
30:14
the christian groups
30:17
will find one on one work.
30:20
Right. So one of
30:23
the members of one of our christian groups on campus will see someone
30:26
alone in the cafeteria and will make a point
30:29
to sit down with them. Yeah.
30:30
>> Loren: M. Right.
30:31
>> Nicole Torbitsky: So they do this thing that is really good
30:34
and important, which is make a personal connection with
30:37
someone who is very lonely and not really in
30:40
a position to make connections in big group
30:43
settings. And this is very, very attractive
30:46
to a lot of freshmen who get
30:49
into these groups and then, by their senior
30:51
year, end up in my office because they
30:54
didn't know what they were signing up for. They
30:57
didn't understand that this invitation to join
31:00
a group meant that they had to cede all
31:03
control.
31:05
>> Loren: Right.
31:07
>> Nicole Torbitsky: This group would try to tell them who they could date
31:09
and how, uh, they could spend their money and
31:12
where they could live and if their parents weren't
31:15
on board, that they needed to cut off contact with their parents.
31:18
And so these kinds of groups
31:21
fill, uh, a need.
31:23
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:23
>> Nicole Torbitsky: That's an important need that needs to be filled.
31:27
And also, many, many
31:29
stay, and many come to me and like,
31:32
okay, I found Jesus, and we had this
31:35
really great time, and now it's gotten a little
31:38
bit ugly. What do we do? Right. How do I do
31:41
this? Okay. Right. We can move forward from
31:44
there. There are christians
31:47
out there who are faithfully following Jesus, who
31:49
also don't need to see your tax returns.
31:52
Did that help? Did I answer that question?
31:55
>> Loren: I'm, uh, thinking, too. I'm thinking about
31:58
the challenge of identity. Uh, as I've
32:01
read it, identity is a real
32:03
struggle. And as
32:06
I understand, there's this real pressure.
32:10
Thank goodness. I
32:12
joke when my wife and I were
32:15
dating many years ago, this
32:18
was. I didn't have a cell phone. She had a
32:21
cell phone very shortly. I couldn't imagine, like,
32:23
even just navigating a relationship via
32:26
text. Um, but certainly
32:29
what I'm reading and hearing more and more is that since the
32:32
advent of social media, there's this need to construct
32:35
an identity and just how exhausting, um,
32:38
that can be. And I'm thinking some of what
32:41
I'm hearing from different voices is
32:44
one of the gifts of Christianity can be,
32:47
is that, you know, you know, in
32:50
Christ, like, that's your identity.
32:53
I'm not articulating it super well, but
32:56
there's this grace to not have to be a
32:59
thing.
33:00
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right? Like, in Christ,
33:02
you are a son or a
33:05
daughter of God. Right. Uh, you're a brother or
33:08
sister to Christ, and therefore a brother and
33:11
sister to all other Christians,
33:14
or at least the Christians who agree with
33:17
you. Exactly.
33:18
>> Loren: Uh,
33:21
I like to joke that my
33:24
theological eyes are often bigger than my stomach
33:27
because I tend to have a big
33:30
tent and then some folks
33:32
don't always have such a big tent, and sometimes
33:37
I have to haunt me. But, yeah, I hear you.
33:39
>> Nicole Torbitsky: It does, and it does. And
33:42
so finding Jesus when you come to
33:45
college does really help
33:48
people find an identity, find a
33:50
place to fit in, find a set
33:53
of ethics and rules to help
33:56
guide a life as they
33:59
move into true adulthood. And
34:02
it can be positive and powerful. It really
34:05
can be. And it really does help combat the
34:08
loneliness piece that a lot of people feel.
34:10
Mhm. And I think that that is one
34:13
of the strengths. Like, this is one of the ways
34:16
that Christianity helps
34:18
to. And, uh, religion in general. Right. I'm an
34:21
academic. I'm an academic. And so it's not
34:24
just Christianity that does this. Right. All religions
34:27
do this. So we see it in Islam and we see it in
34:30
Hinduism. Here's our group
34:33
identity, and you're welcome to join it.
34:36
Right. And so this is a function of
34:38
religion. And all religions do this,
34:41
Christianity does it. And then also on top
34:44
of the identity piece, these students
34:47
do develop a relationship with the divine.
34:50
They do get that spiritual
34:52
need fed and filled.
34:55
And I think it does help. We did a
34:58
recent study on,
35:01
um, like, success in
35:04
college based on your
35:07
attendance at a christian group.
35:10
And it turns out if you are
35:13
a member of one of the christian groups on campus,
35:16
you are more likely to
35:18
succeed and succeed. Well, Dodge.
35:21
Right. And that might, I mean,
35:25
for some people, like, yay, Jesus intervened on your
35:27
behalf and made your grades good. I don't think that's it.
35:30
I think when people get their spiritual needs
35:33
met and when they get
35:36
their community needs met, then they're more likely
35:39
to succeed in their academics, as well.
35:42
And it's part of getting your mature
35:45
life in order. Right. To get these needs met,
35:48
to have a community and identity and a relationship with the
35:51
divine.
35:52
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:53
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And it's something that Christianity in general needs to
35:56
get better at. Right. How do we
35:59
reach this group of nuns in a way that is non
36:02
coercive and welcoming to all
36:04
people? Because that group, you
36:07
know, 30% of people under the age of 20 right
36:10
now identify. I'm gonna start to get into places where
36:13
people are gonna start to be uncomfortable, and I'm sorry about this,
36:16
but 30% of people under the age of 20
36:19
identify as queer, as
36:21
LGBTQIA. Right. All of that.
36:24
And those people are not really welcomed by most of
36:27
the christian groups on my campus.
36:28
>> Loren: Yeah.
36:29
>> Nicole Torbitsky: So then they come and feel. Because
36:32
it's only about 30%. Right. They come and feel like part
36:35
of the minority, and they're not welcomed as they
36:38
are by most of the christian groups.
36:41
And we have all, uh. And are struggling to find their
36:44
identity. And this is where Christianity
36:46
is failing God's people. There's
36:49
a whole group of people here that need to know
36:52
the love of God and the non coercive love of
36:55
God.
36:56
>> Loren: Yeah.
36:56
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. The love of God that accepts you exactly as
36:59
you are and calls us in each moment to be the
37:02
best version of ourselves that we can be.
37:05
It's what I hope to do in my ministry. Like, the
37:08
people who,
37:10
uh, don't identify
37:12
as queer, LgBtqia,
37:16
uh, they find that they can find their place
37:18
really easy in the Christian groups. So it's this underserved
37:21
population that I try to focus on in my. In my
37:24
ministry at Lindenwood.
37:25
>> Loren: Yeah. Life. Well, our time is
37:28
moving quickly, and I want to get two more questions here
37:31
before we move on to the closing questions.
37:33
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Sure.
37:34
>> Loren: What. What do you think? Uh,
37:37
how am I trying to say this? What would you want
37:39
churches to know about young
37:43
adults?
37:44
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Okay, so churches need to know that young
37:47
adults are lonely.
37:49
>> Loren: Okay.
37:49
>> Nicole Torbitsky: M. And they would rather be lonely than do it the
37:52
way the boomers do it. And the next thing
37:55
they need to know is that
37:58
even those young adults who are part
38:01
of a christian or muslim or jewish or hindu
38:04
group that don't accept the queer
38:06
community, um, those people
38:09
are hungry for a church that
38:12
love them. And
38:15
it might be time for us to consider
38:18
just loving all of God's
38:21
creation, we risk
38:25
losing the good news
38:28
if we refuse to love like Jesus loved
38:32
other.
38:32
>> Loren: Half of the question then is what do you think
38:35
young adults could learn
38:38
from churches?
38:40
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Loving a church is a lot like loving
38:43
a marriage partner.
38:47
When you get married and you say yes to this person now
38:50
you also are saying yes. I think Tim Burnett
38:53
said this last night and it's so true.
38:56
You're saying yes to that person and
38:58
the 30, 40, 50 versions of
39:01
them that they'll be, ah, over the next
39:05
however, years. And you're promising in
39:07
this moment that even if you don't like that version, you're
39:10
gonna love them anyway.
39:15
Churches are a lot like that.
39:17
>> Loren: That's a good analogy.
39:19
>> Nicole Torbitsky: I might not like a move or a
39:22
decision or a choice in the church that I'm at. And
39:25
maybe it might be better for us to
39:28
stick around and learn how to function
39:31
properly, to deal with conflict, to
39:34
help move a church in a direction that we think is faithful
39:37
to God instead of just like. One of the
39:39
problems that kind of the mega churches, evangelical churches are
39:42
having is that they don't. Lots of
39:45
people hop megachurch to megachurch.
39:48
>> Loren: The back door is wide open.
39:50
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. And one of the things
39:53
that young people can do is find a community that they
39:55
think is a good fit for them and then
39:58
stay there. Right. Jesus tells
40:01
us that where your
40:04
treasure is, there your heart will be.
40:07
Not where your heart is, there your treasure will
40:10
be. Right. And so
40:13
there's a distinction there. Where you put your time and
40:16
treasure, where you put your effort, that's where your heart
40:19
will be.
40:19
>> Loren: Mhm.
40:20
>> Nicole Torbitsky: So choose that thing that matters
40:23
to you and then your
40:26
heart will go there. Right. If this is where we put
40:29
our time and our attention and our focus, then
40:32
that will help us connect with God and
40:35
connect with community, which if you're listening
40:38
to what Jesus has to say, are really the same
40:40
thing. Right. The greatest command is love the
40:43
Lord your God. And the second, in the King
40:46
James version, it says, the second is like, unto it.
40:49
>> Loren: Hey, I got my king James Bible right here, so
40:52
amen to that.
40:53
>> Nicole Torbitsky: The second is like, unto it. Well, what does that mean?
40:56
It means the same as.
40:57
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:58
>> Nicole Torbitsky: So to love the Lord your God is to
41:01
love your neighbor as yourself. So get
41:04
some neighbors and love them. And that way you'll
41:06
look, it's good stuff here.
41:09
>> Loren: It's good stuff here. You ready for some
41:12
closing questions?
41:13
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Yeah, let's do it.
41:14
>> Loren: I feel like we should just keep going, but,
41:17
um. It's good stuff. It's good
41:20
stuff okay, so if you're pope for a day,
41:23
what do you want to do with that day? Any big, any big
41:26
calls you want to make?
41:28
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Yeah, I'm not so authoritarian,
41:34
so maybe that's the thing I would do, right. If I were pope, I'd be like,
41:36
hey, let's make this way less authoritarian
41:39
and let's make it much more communal.
41:42
>> Loren: Yeah, that's fair. Abolishing the papacy
41:45
is a common answer, but it sounds like you're looking for
41:48
a more nuanced approach.
41:49
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right? Much more nuanced. There's no need to abolish it. There's
41:52
definitely a place for leadership. Right. That's why some people
41:55
are called to ministry. Everybody gets certain
41:58
gifts. So, uh, there's
42:01
a whole lot of power, though, kind of
42:05
concentrated, uh, in one little place.
42:08
And so maybe a little more power sharing would be a good idea. A
42:11
little less top down.
42:12
>> Loren: Yeah.
42:14
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Uh, include people of all bodies
42:17
in the power structures.
42:19
Mhm. Uh, if we're all made in God's
42:22
image, then all of us get
42:25
to take, uh, leadership positions if we're
42:28
called to that. What
42:30
would I do? I would.
42:33
If I were pope for a day. I try to
42:36
also make it so that none of this could be undone.
42:39
>> Loren: Okay. Yeah. It's gonna be a lot of, like,
42:42
legal, legal work there.
42:43
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. I need to prepare for my pope for the day, so I could just get
42:46
into office on the first day and start making all sorts of undoable
42:49
changes.
42:51
>> Loren: Um, a theologian or historical christian
42:54
figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
42:58
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Okay. If I was gonna have a party,
43:01
I would want, like, David
43:03
Hume.
43:04
>> Loren: Oh, this is even a better question. Like,
43:08
who do you want to invite to your, like, I'm thinking, like, did you watch
43:11
the good place?
43:12
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Yes.
43:13
>> Loren: I feel like this is what's coming to mind for me. Like the, uh. Do
43:16
you remember, like, I think it's season four when they get
43:18
to the good place and it's this really
43:21
pathetic party with the drink
43:24
dispenser. That's what I'm thinking of.
43:27
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. Who would I want? I would want the
43:30
philosophers and the theologians, uh, and the
43:33
church leaders from the past who were good at
43:36
a party.
43:38
>> Loren: Okay.
43:39
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Uh, and I think that Jesus would be involved in
43:41
that. Right? Like, I don't think that
43:44
Jesus shied away from a party. He was. He
43:47
brought the wine, right. Or, uh, he brought the good wine.
43:50
>> Loren: Yeah.
43:51
>> Nicole Torbitsky: So, okay. Right. You come on,
43:54
Jesus, and let's have the good wine, and then you can tell us all
43:57
about how we ought to be.
43:58
>> Loren: Yeah. I feel like Jesus would just be, like,
44:01
telling just like, these kick ass stories,
44:04
right? That would just be like. You'd be, like,
44:07
laughing, you'd be crying. Then you'd be like, oh,
44:09
man, right? It's got minutes or two,
44:12
right?
44:13
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Like, something got healed in me at this party over this
44:16
wine. Right. I think that would be. I would actually love for David
44:19
Hume and Jesus to meet. I think that would be very helpful for
44:21
David Hume.
44:25
>> Loren: What do you think history will remember from our current time and
44:27
place?
44:28
>> Nicole Torbitsky: I know this is.
44:31
We are undergoing another massive change.
44:35
Although everyone of every generation says that,
44:37
right? Unprecedented change. Unprecedented change.
44:41
I, um, think what really will be remembered
44:44
is the rise of
44:46
nationalism, like religious
44:49
nationalism. So in the United States, it's christian
44:52
nationalism, but in India, it's hindu nationalism. This
44:55
is gonna be. This kind of syncretism
44:58
is gonna mark a turning point in
45:01
not just Christianity, but religion in general. So when we come back and study
45:04
it, they're gonna be like, oh, well, here's where nation
45:07
states and religion got real blended again.
45:10
It's always been. There have always been times, but, uh,
45:13
it's going to get real blended right now, I think.
45:16
>> Loren: What are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
45:19
>> Nicole Torbitsky: More and better for it, right. That
45:22
the good news. I know that was such a long pause. The
45:25
good news continues to
45:28
grow. Right. And there is good
45:31
news out there.
45:32
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff.
45:35
Uh, Reverend Doctor Nicole
45:37
Torbitsky, thank you so much for your
45:40
time. Where, uh, can people connect with you?
45:43
Get the book.
45:44
>> Nicole Torbitsky: You can find our book,
45:47
uh,
45:50
um, preaching the power of the uncontrolling God. And you
45:53
can find it on Amazon. So just Amazon.
45:56
And you can even google my name, which is no one will
45:59
be able to spell. So how about Jeff Wells?
46:02
>> Loren: Jeff Wells. That's clean, simple
46:04
Jeff Wells.
46:06
>> Nicole Torbitsky: He was our main editor, or Tom Ord. And
46:09
that'll, uh, draw up these books and preaching the
46:12
uncontrolling love of God. And you can find it there, and you
46:15
can find me. I'm, um, uh, not
46:18
much of a social media user. It's kind of bad for my soul. But, uh,
46:21
you can find me on Instagram and Twitter just under my name. Nicole
46:24
Torbitsky.
46:25
>> Loren: All right, well, this has been a great conversation. Really appreciate the
46:27
time. Uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
46:30
God's peace be with you.
46:32
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And also with you. Thank you.
46:34
>> Loren: Thank you.
46:36
>> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
46:39
To learn more about Lauren or the podcast,
46:42
visit future dash Christian.com.
46:45
One more thing before you go. Do us a favor
46:48
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
46:51
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
46:54
It really helps us get the word out to more people. About the
46:57
podcast. The
47:00
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
47:03
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
47:06
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
47:08
provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
47:11
and go in peace.