Latest / Pete Vs Anxiety!!!!! / From Apple Computers to Reality TV Psychologist: Steven’s Journey Into the Mind of the Madness
Transcript
- peter AI: The following podcast is collaboration project of Pete verse anxiety and Janey support group be bold be brave be a voice of the voiceless. Pete "mental Health Champ": Welcome to another exciting episode of Voice of the Voices. I'm Pete, Matty's here as well. Matty, say hi to everybody. And we are joined today by Steven. Steven, say hello to everybody. So, Steven, why don't you tell everybody a little more about yourself? Maddie Andrews: Ay yo! Steven: Hello everybody. Maddie Andrews: Yeah. Steven: Well, I'm a clinical psychologist and ⁓ I have a company that I started over 40 years ago that publishes psychological assessments. And I also do a lot of work in reality TV as a reality TV psychologist. Maddie Andrews: more. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ that's right. Yeah. Yep. Let's get into it. Let's get into it, Stephen. How did you end up in reality TV, man? This is going to be very interesting. Maddie Andrews: That is Steven: Yeah Maddie Andrews: Yes! Steven: Well, it was a bit unusual. happened was about 20 years ago, I had a call from a colleague of mine in LA who wanted to know something about some work we were doing in an area called emotional intelligence. We had just developed a new assessment for emotional intelligence. So I talked about it and then asked them what he was interested in using it for. And he said, well, he was at this party and he met this guy named Mark. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Steven: wants to do some kind of TV show and he wants to screen everybody before they go on the show to make sure it's safe for them. And I asked him what kind of show is it? He says, oh, they're just gonna put these people on an island and vote somebody out each week. And I said, who's gonna watch that? That sounds crazy, right? But it turned out to be Survivor and... Maddie Andrews: Hahaha Steven: It started back then and my colleague used our assessments and then used them for the next show they did which was called Apprentice. And then ⁓ more shows came around and they found out that I was also involved and then I started getting ⁓ calls to do some of these shows and work with applicants for the shows as well. Pete "mental Health Champ": That's that's so cool though. That's that's so cool. Like you like you like that's that'd be an interesting call because you're like, wait a minute. Hold on. Okay, people are gonna vote people over an island What the hell's going on here with this one? And then the ideas just kept coming in but it's it's so interesting because I remember we met at the NPS you were telling me I was like, ⁓ yeah We definitely got to talk to you some more because I'm curious about that because it's like you don't meet a lot of people like well I'm a reality TV psychologist. I'm like, huh? Maddie Andrews: That is so cool. Steven: Mmm. Maddie Andrews: hahahahah ⁓ Steven: I Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": Like, you know, like, like what kind of questions are you asking these individuals? Because obviously with Survivor, given the situation of what it was there on an island, basically by themselves, by themselves now, we should say, you know, doesn't mean they were, you know, obviously the crews run, but from the depiction of what it is that you're watching, you know, to like going to Apprentice, which was a little bit different. so, everybody fighting for a job with Donald Trump and things, you know, stuff like that, you know, it had to be interesting. Like these questions they wanted you to ask everybody. Or did you dictate what they were going to ask? Steven: So my direct involvement was moved on to other shows such as Big Brother Canada, The Amazing Race Canada, Bachelor Canada, The Real Housewives of Toronto. yeah, so on those shows, you know, there's Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay. Mm-hmm. The villain as well, the caretaker, the hot mess comic. He's got still for days listed over here, man. I remember this one. Steven: Yeah. Maddie Andrews: Please tell me how you analyze the housewives. Please tell me how you analyze housewives Steven: Lots of ⁓ Well, I mean, there's two basic things for every show. mean, one is about safety, right? To make sure that it's safe for them to be on the show. There's not going to be too much in terms of any mental health issues that come up because that's not good for anybody on the show. And then the second one is to understand their personalities a bit more, to sort of let the producers know ⁓ what kind of individual that we're dealing with and how they might react to certain things on the show. Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool though. I mean, it's so fascinating though, Steven. You've been doing this for how long now? Psychology for a long time, yeah? Steven: Well, psychology for over four years, but reality TV for about 20 years. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, so you've seen a lot of things come down the line. I'm sure you declined a lot of people because you're like, yeah, unfortunately, you're just not going to fit what we need because, know, given the reason, like you said, because of mental health, because you don't know how they're going to react to some of these things. Steven: Exactly. And we got to be cautious that it's safe for everybody, right? It's got to be a good experience. And you know what? For most people who go through these shows, it's a fabulous experience. They feel that they've grown as a result of it. They've learned more about themselves, how they interact with other people. So it's almost therapeutic in and of itself. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely, no. And then you mentioned in the beginning that you were doing like personality test type things. Isn't that what you were saying you started a company doing? Steven: Yeah, we started doing tests. Well, actually started more in the mental health area. So we have one of the first tests that was used for ADHD, for example. And we work in the area of ⁓ anxiety and depression and a lot of those mental health areas. And then we also spread out into public safety where we look at risk assessment. We look at things like how dangerous a person might be coming out of prison or going into prison. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. ⁓ okay, this is interesting, okay. ⁓ shit, okay. Steven: And then we also work in the corporate area where we look at things, as I mentioned, emotional intelligence, leadership, the ability to deal with change at work in the organization. And finally, the other area we work with is gifted, identifying gifted children in schools, but using new technology to do that. Pete "mental Health Champ": So what got you into this guy? ⁓ Here we go. Maddie Andrews: know what some of these assessments you give are because I conduct some of these assessments and I want to know if I'm meeting the guy who made them like the Columbia, the GED, the PHQ-9, the homicidal ideation assessment like did you get involved in any of these please tell me you did. Steven: Yeah Those are slightly different ones. So for ADHD, it's the Connors Rating Scale is probably the most common use. ⁓ The Children's Depression Inventory for depression. The Hair Psychopathy Checklist for prisons, real psychopaths, people who cross the line on that. ⁓ Level of Service Inventory for people coming out of jail, going into jail. The EQI Emotional Quotient Inventory that we use in workplaces and other places. Maddie Andrews: Yes? Steven: So there's dozens and dozens of these assessments that we've developed over the years. Maddie Andrews: This is so cool. As a social worker, I find you fascinating. Pete "mental Health Champ": My question to you though is... Steven: Yes. Pete "mental Health Champ": So my question to you is like, what got you started? Is this such an interesting area to be in? Like you get into an area like you're doing personality tests of people. it's like, why? What got you to want to do that kind of thing though? Is it just something you got kind of solid need and you're like, you know what, hey, I got an idea and just went with it? Because that's such an interesting, even an interesting area to even get into, obviously. Maddie Andrews: Yes. Steven: Yeah. So I started life as an ordinary psychologist. I was actually working more as a child psychologist in a large mental health facility and I'm going back quite a few years here. So what happened was we, ⁓ I got this big research grant to look at kids who were, you know, out of control, difficult behavior. So as part of the research, I had to test them before the study. Then we gave the therapy and then we had to test them after the study. Well, what happened was these kids were telling me where I could shove my tests. They didn't want to do them. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ okay. Yeah. Maddie Andrews: Hehehehehe ⁓ Steven: So, you these were not, these were kind of bad kids, right? So around that same time, there was these two guys in California named Steve. You might've heard of them, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. And they invented something called an Apple computer at that time. So I said, wow, that looks like an interesting things. Kids seem to like that. Why don't I get one of these things into our hospital and we can program some of the questions on here and see what the kids think. Pete "mental Health Champ": He's like... Maddie Andrews: Yes. Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay, okay. Steven: So what happened was the kids came in and they loved it. They wanted to come and take my tests all of a sudden. But not only that, we found out things that none of the clinicians found out. We found out about previous suicide attempts. We found out about drug usage. We found out about sexual abuse. None of this had they ever told their therapist before. So I thought, wow, this is the future. This is great stuff. So I want to tell the hospital at the time that, hey, let me change my research. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ okay. Steven: into this assessment stuff. This is really cool and do less of the treatment. And they say, no, no, we don't want to do that. We're not interested. So I decided to work on it at night with my wife who was at home on maternity leave. She worked in an addiction center ⁓ with our first child. So we just set up a little business in our basement, automating psychological testing, ⁓ selling it out of the basement. And it grew and grew and we now have 230 employees doing this stuff. Pete "mental Health Champ": That's so fascinating. That is, that's really fascinating though, because like, you know, you're, setting the standard for how people look at these kinds of things, you know, because it's like, no one else was doing it prior to this. And you're like, well, you know what, let's, let's go with this and see where it is. Cause you didn't know where it was going to go. And the computer just came out, you know, Apple just appeared, you know, and all of a sudden now you're using it and changing the dynamics and now using them. So now they're abusing all your tests for these things. So it was interesting because it's like, you know, Maddie Andrews: That is so cool. Steven: Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": Like beforehand, you you never had these, but then that came out. People were just like, I hate doing the personality test. I'll be honest with just like a lot of them just drive me crazy. Like I'm not a test guy. And maybe that's what it is. just like, you know, I don't, you know, my question though is like, what is the basis for, like just some general employment? It's like, are you asking them questions for a reason? Because, you know, like you're asking a lot of like dislikes and what do you think on a scale of one to all these different kinds of, you know what I mean? Like different ranges of way they modify them obviously. Maddie Andrews: Ha ha ha ha ha! Pete "mental Health Champ": from what you're originally asking them. Steven: Well, each one has a purpose, right? So if we're diagnosing ADHD, then we're focused around questions that have to do with impulsivity and distractibility and your ability to focus on things. ⁓ So each test that we develop is developed for a specific purpose to accomplish something and to help someone decide on what treatment you should have or what kind of intervention is going to work best for you. And that's always been our goal. It's really to understand people better. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Steven: and to get them the help that they really need to go forward. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, yeah, definitely. No, because you're breaking it down on a deeper level because you understand these things, you know, you know what kind of questions to ask people to brought the answers to see what they say, you know, which is it's just I'm just fascinated beyond belief because this is so cool because when we met you, you were telling me about the reality TV side and I was like, okay, cool. Then you bring out this part. I'm like, okay, well, Steve was holding back on me on this one. Shit, he doesn't know about this. You know what mean? We had we had had two minutes. Exactly. We had two minutes to talk about it, things like that, too, which is really cool because Steven: Hey, we only had two minutes. What can I do? Maddie Andrews: Hehehehehe ⁓ Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ When I met you originally, was like, that's what grabbed me. was like, the reality TV thing. think about all the shows that you watch these days. MTV went from music to basically just reality TV, like Jersey Shore, The Real World. Were you involved in any of those kind of projects too? Steven: Well, I'm actually doing Canada Shore, which is the Canadian version of Jersey Shore. So I'm working on that. We're on our season two. did season one last year, season two, and that's become a big hit up here. And we've been had some visitors from Jersey Shore come on the set. And another big one that you might be familiar with is Beast Games with Mr. Beast. ⁓ Yeah, that was a huge, huge game. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ okay, okay. Maddie Andrews: Mmm. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yep. Maddie Andrews: You really did beast games? ⁓ why did you have to ask people about that? Because they're like all so sick and psyched up to win all this money. Steven: Well, there was a lot. had a thousand people at the start of it. This was season one that I worked on and there was so many people had to bring in additional psychologists to help me out with this thing. So it was going day and night for about a month or so, over a month. It was a lot of work. People were just hoping to win what they thought was $5 million, what ended up being $10 million. So it was real crazy. People were being eliminated constantly. Maddie Andrews: Wow. Steven: We had to work with all the different candidates on that particular show. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yes. Yeah, I was going to ask you that though, like during the seasons of some of these shows, are you ever called in on like the back scene to talk to some of them? you know, life happens for people, obviously, some of these people that have some mental issues and things like that, you know, did you, did you see any of them develop anything that like maybe started appearing to be as a little worry for some of them? You know, obviously you guys do extensive research on them, ask questions, but you know, the human element is that you don't know something may have come up. Steven: Yeah Pete "mental Health Champ": You for these guys and then they have to call you in like, Hey, Steven, we need you to come talk to them or having a situation. Have you gotten calls like that though, during the season of what people are recording? Steven: All the time, all the time. A lot of my time is being called in because there may be some issue with some of the candidates on some of the shows. it's very, because they're placed away from home, they miss the people that they're used to, whether it's their partner or friends or whatever. And then they're put into these stressful situations and have to make tough decisions or sometimes... Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah. Steven: It's a social thing where everybody they feel everyone's against them and they're not doing well in the the competitions. Yeah, so yeah, so I'm constantly on call for a number of different shows when they're actually being filmed. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, depending on what they're doing, yeah, definitely, yeah, depending on the show. It's like, the phone just starts ringing. Damn it. That's crazy though. Because that's what I thinking about it. Because I remember Jersey Shore when Mike was having this problem with his addiction. And it came out that he was addicted to painkillers and things like that and all these things he struggled with. You're watching these people just completely lose their shit on TV. And it's like, these are real people. Maddie Andrews: He's got all those. Steven: All right. Pete "mental Health Champ": Like that's what people seem to get. They think this is acting. like, these are real people. Reality show is reality. These are really what's happening with these people when they're recording these shows. know, like Teen Mom too had to be an interesting one. I could only imagine what it was like, you know, dealing with that whole situation with the trauma from a lot of those girls they were dealing with and things like that too. Maddie Andrews: I have watched The Real Housewives of Toronto and I'm sure you got some calls from that show. Pete "mental Health Champ": Hahaha, ⁓ Maddie's like, yeah. Steven: I did. was a great show. was a fun show and I enjoyed working with the women from that show. Maddie Andrews: ⁓ I enjoy watching them in all their drama. Steven: Yes, they had a fair bit of drama. Pete "mental Health Champ": A fair bit. I'm sure there's a lot. But hey, listen, Steven, I did want to ask you, though, do you remember that show from the Degrassi? That's what thinking. Degrassi, show that aired in Canada, like the level of that. Yeah, exactly. You know what saying? Like, they never contact you about that one because that one was such an interesting show from the aspect of people that haven't seen it. Like, they touched everything. Like, you guys, that show was not afraid to touch anything. School shootings. Yeah. Maddie Andrews: Hey Steven: Yeah. Canadian show Drake. Drake came out of that show. Absolutely. That was. No. Yeah, but that was a scripted show. That wasn't a reality show. I don't... Pete "mental Health Champ": But you know, there's still the subject matters that I said, they didn't still like talk to you about that since you technically reality TV. These actors have to live these roles and things like that too, you know, which takes a lot of strain on them though, if you think about it, because like they're going to have to go through these things. And some of these topics are subject sensitive for people. you know. Steven: Yeah, they are, yeah, no, I didn't deal with that. I don't get very many scripted shows. It's usually the reality one where they know they need someone like me to be there. Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. coming to keep him from going loopy, gotcha. ⁓ This is so cool though, I love it man, that's awesome. So, I mean, it's so interesting. like for people that want to be on these shows, like what are some things you can tell them? Like, hey listen, if you apply to be on these shows, expect these kinds of things to happen. Maybe give them a little insight about it since we have you here right now. Maddie Andrews: Hehehehehe Steven: Well, every show is a bit different, right? So it's helpful if you know what the show is about, although sometimes they get people who have no idea what they're getting into, which makes it really interesting. ⁓ Also, you know, not to have too many preconceived notions about who you're going to be or what you're going to do. The best thing is to be yourself, is to be honest, because we tend to weed out people who make up stories or, you know, say, ⁓ I'm the villain, I'm going to be the villain on this thing, whatever. We don't want that. It's called reality TV because we want to see reality. We want real emotions. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Steven: You know, the settings may be set up, the situations are set up, you we develop those, but the emotions are real. So we want to be able to get your real emotions happening on those shows. just, you know, be yourself and have an interesting story behind you. Something that, you know, makes people interested and want to see you or watch you, something in your background or, you know, something about you that is ⁓ different or interesting for people. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. I can only imagine what it's like to cause you get for Big Brother because all the personalities you get in the house together and all the alliances and things, all the psychological games that are played with a lot of those kind of things or villains was like that as well. You know, all the different things that the element of people, you know, having to really worry about certain things, you know, like I can only imagine the calls you're getting from people about just a. the level of just insanity of things that are going on in the vaccine. No one ever even knows exists. And sometimes it shows through and other times you don't know that these, guys are struggling sometimes, especially the isolation thing. I'm trying to think of what it And Netflix did one like that where they had these people isolated in these little apartments and they didn't really know what I can't remember what it's like the cube or so I can't remember what the hell that show's called. But you know what I'm talking about? The one where they lock them in and things. I can only imagine what it was like to having, having someone having to work on that. Cause that's reality TV as well. Because the fact that they're isolated for so long. Steven: Yeah Pete "mental Health Champ": like, you know, the level of just like, do you keep their sanity in those situations? Because like they're they're isolated from everybody. You can only talk to some people like very barely. You know, you can send audio, you send text messages to each other, but that's not enough for people. Some people need human interaction and everything else like that. Like, you know, especially with Mr. Beast, a lot of those experiments he does, like the ones where he locks the guys in the grocery store for like, what is it? The guy was locked in for like 30 days or then he was watching the guy just deteriorate. And it was like, you know, I can only imagine the calls you would get for something like that. Maddie Andrews: Thank you. Steven: Yeah, Big Brother is pretty intense and I'm there a lot, you know, in terms of, well, actually I talk to everybody. I do a debrief with everybody who leaves the show, even to the winners, just to make sure that they're okay and they know, they don't know what's happening out in the outside world, right? It might've been eight weeks, know, a couple months that they've been out of commission there within the show. So, and they may not even know that everybody out there hates them and thinks they were terrible and a villain. They thought they were doing a great job. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Steven: everyone loves them so they gotta be prepared for some of the social media that's gonna hit them once they get out on the street and ⁓ you know there's a lot of issues like that that we have to deal with Pete "mental Health Champ": So Stephen, let's change the topic a little bit to your book that you wrote with Dr. Paul Bartone called Hardiness. Can you tell everybody a little bit what that's about? Give them a little feel for what you guys worked together on in this book. Steven: Sure. Paul ⁓ Bartone was a senior psychologist in the US Army and he was at West Point and he did many years, over 20 years of research on this area called hardiness. And what it was, it looks at people's ability, you think of it as resilience, but it's actually more than resilience. Their ability to manage stress, to function well, even when things are difficult around you. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ okay. Steven: And he discovered that there was three main elements in the way you think, your mindset, that really made the difference if you're going through West Point as an officer or whatever. Successful people, for example, one thing they have is what's called challenge. They're able to see difficult situations or things as more of a challenge. They step back and see it as a puzzle to be worked out and don't get all emotionally consumed by what's going on. The second thing they have is ⁓ Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Steven: is called control. And that's the ability to know what you can control and what you can't control and focus on only those things you can control. You can't control the weather, right? It's going to rain, it's going to rain, but you can put on a raincoat, you can put on a rain hat. So knowing the difference between the two. And finally, commitment. And commitment has to do with really having a purpose in life and sort of knowing who you are and where you want to go. And if you know yourself well and you have your values down solid, Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Yeah. Steven: then you get through these stressful situations well. So Paul had been doing this research for many years in the military and publishing all these articles, but the only people seeing them were people in the military or psychologists who read those journals. So I convinced Paul, we've got to take this great work you've been doing out to the public, out to the corporate world, out to organizations, out to everybody else. So that's what led to us writing the book together. We want to take it out and we have, you know, Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Steven: some pop culture in there. talk about some situations with Lady Gaga, for example, or Madonna or other people that you'd be familiar with and show how these principles of control, commitment and challenge help them in their lives, their ability to use these mindsets to get through difficult situations. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, especially celebrities. like people like Madonna and Lady Gaga. Think about the popularity they have and like they have no privacy because they're so well known, you know, and even even TV show actors and things like that, too. They have no lives and then people get mad when they react the way they do. It's like because you're invading these people's lives like you have to understand like they have no privacy anymore. Now that you make it famous, it's great to be famous. But then people don't realize what comes with fame is that you don't have a personal life anymore. Everything you do is on a magnifying glass. It's just scrutinized. Like you do one thing, you drop something, litter somewhere, that's it. You become the world's hated, ⁓ well, yeah, it's no clear, you know what mean? Like it'll just get turned. So my question is, Paul, you said you knew Paul for a little while. So did he have a lot of restrictions when it came from the military side of things? Because the government is very private about certain things. And I know with mental health. Steven: Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": In the military, it's a very sticky situation. Steven: Yeah, no, I don't think he had any restrictions. His research was published in these journals, as I mentioned. So once they're published in journals, they're accessible. I mean, you could get them if you know where to go in the library to find them. So ⁓ no, the work that we did is pretty much public. And then we added to it. When we wrote the book, we also did some surveys. We did some research with people looking at burnout, for example. How are some people affected by burnout more than others? Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ huh. ⁓ okay. Okay. Maddie Andrews: Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Steven: And again, we found this concept of hardiness really helped predict who could deal with the burnout situations better. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, that's so really interesting too, because you know, I like the pop culture referencing because I do the same thing when I talk about a lot of stuff because I do a mental podcast as well as when we met, I told you about it. You know, I do a lot of pop culture references too, because it's, you know, it really interesting when you can compare them to the two and make sense. You know, when you said Madonna, Lady Gaga, you know, things like that. It's just interesting. But with Paul's background being the military, it's very interesting too, because that aspect of like, those guys go through like so many like war situations and they see things like, you know, like I remember reading a book in high school called Voices of Vietnam and like you're reading these letters, these guys are writing home about the craziest situations, but these are actual letters they published in a book where these guys were talking about these things, you know, and we all know, you know, PTSD was known as shell shock for the longest time, you know, so it's so fascinating that, know, Paul, Paul, and you would put this book out though, because I was like, oh, this is interesting to hear. And so as you said, military, cause I was very interested to know, because I know what the military, a lot of people I've talked to, it's like, You have like you hear different stories about it. Like some people say they've had experiences over there. They come back and the tests they were doing. A lot of these guys went to a lot of like, you know, testing and they said that they were told they were fine, but they weren't. A lot of guys, you know, like my first person I ever did for Pete for his anxiety, he was an actually 22 year military vet of the Marines. He came on and he was telling me that when he came back from over there that the psychological testing they did, they told him he was OK, but he knew he wasn't OK because he's like, I my Humvee got blown up. The thing flipped in the air and he was describing and he's like, and I woke up five minutes later and I had to play cool. Like everything was fine, you know, and it, was such an interesting thing because it's like, you know, this guy was over there experiencing these things and he came back and they, for them to tell him that he's okay. It was, it's scary because it's like, he's not okay. Then clearly he's not okay. Cause he can't go to the store and get a go get a gallon of milk, for example, without having like being completely and mostly drained. He's like, well, I'm done for the day. I can't handle that though. Steven: Yeah, PTSD is a real challenge. And I think a lot of strides have been made in the last few years to recognize it better and to put in supports that for long time, a lot of our veterans weren't getting help for PTSD. ⁓ You know, either they weren't being identified or misidentified. And I think a lot of work has gone into that. And the division that Paul's very involved with of military psychologists, I know Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Bear call. Steven: It's been a major ⁓ issue for them to fight for and get more recognition of the fact that a lot of vets or people coming out of the military really need support and have been through some difficult situations. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah, you could just imagine like the people from like World War II, the things they seen and all that kind of stuff. Any kind of war, whatever war you put in there, it's bad. Anybody seen a combat situation, it's traumatizing because you're like, you're seeing things that no normal person should see. Even if you think it even deeper, go like you switch it from military to like EMTs and things like that, too. You know, those guys see things at a rapid pace, you know. Steven: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Pete "mental Health Champ": and things like that too. Like they're seeing so much so fast. A of people aren't asking these questions. So Steven, my question to you though is, is why do you feel like people don't talk about their mental health enough? Like I know, you know, we, we say a lot of people say they're talking about it, but it's like, are we having the right conversations about it? Steven: Well, sometimes people don't even know, right? They don't even realize it's a mental health problem. They're just behaving the way they're behaving because that's all they know. So there's an awareness factor that's really important. know, let's say you're, you know, people are sort of staying away from you, avoiding you for some reason, and you have no idea why they're doing that. So it's a matter of understanding that maybe there's some behavior, some things you're saying or the way you're interacting with them that's affecting their relationships. so ⁓ understanding our awareness is a big first step. Pete "mental Health Champ": Hmm? Steven: for people with mental health. And think once you get through that or past that and you're willing to try things and try some kind of interventions to help you with that, you can become a little more open with it and a little more understanding and people around you can be more understanding as well. So I think that those are some big steps that we have to learn to take. Pete "mental Health Champ": You know, and my next question for you is kind of like, for people that deal with these things, where were the first place they'd go? Because a lot of people don't know where to go in the beginning. That's the hardest part. And you always get that question, like, where should I start? Say if somebody feels like there may be something wrong, or a loved one, say for sake, like Maddie's husband, didn't know the things that Maddie had dealt with. She does a lot of things herself. If he didn't know, where would you tell someone to start? What's the best route to get going? ⁓ That's a big question for a lot of people. They don't know where to go. Steven: Yeah, well, know, one place to start may be your family doctor, if you have a family doctor or health. If you're at work, there may be an EAP employee assistance program that can help you. If you're at school, there's usually a counseling department or ⁓ somewhere, something like that where they can help you. And these professionals can direct you hopefully to the right place. There's also some sort of online ⁓ support systems. I think Psychology Today has a Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Steven: a listing of various psychologists and there are some of those services around as well. ⁓ But you got to find things that are trustworthy, right? That you can make sure you can trust them. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah, see, that's the problem a lot of people have is they can't trust a lot of the information they're getting. you know, that's the first step for a lot of people is like, where do I start? I know like there's also the help hub, helphub.co, ⁓ which is run by Lisa Sugarman. She had put together this whole list of things where, you know, people can go and check out things based on your religion or your spiritual beliefs and things like that. All these other things that fall on those different factors that would come up in a normal conversation and things like that. For Canada, it's the, what is it, the mind? Steven: Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mind some, I can't think what it's called now, I'm at the of my head, but I met a guy up there that has one over there for you guys as well. It's similar to that. He had his own journey he was dealing with, but he has like a one-stop shop resource for everything you would need, kind of thing like that. And a lot of people didn't know it even existed until I started telling them about it, because I was like, hell yeah, that's pretty cool. You gotta check this out if you're here. There's these things, know? Because to me, it's like a lot of times when people talk about it, like Maddie's situation, one, she told people what she was dealing with. And people just got so harsh in responding. It was disgusting the things they're saying to the poor girls. They're telling her, hey, go see a therapist. You should go to a mental hospital. You're crazy. Like just some of the things in general that get said with social media now, because we all know that, you know, everybody's got to be a keyboard warrior. So, you know, all that fun stuff happens, too. Do you ever get any like influencers from like the from like these social media sites that come talk to you ever? Steven: not, not really, not directly, but I I'm familiar with quite a number of these influencers and you know, some are good and some are not so good. ⁓ they really vary out there, but you've just got to be careful. And, ⁓ you know, I often tell people just not to take it too seriously. These are, like you said, keyboard warriors. The chances are they wouldn't say that to your face. They just say it behind a keyboard. So, ⁓ you know, just it's not your close family. It's not the people that you trust and you know. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Exactly. Steven: So don't take too seriously what you get on social media. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, thank God. Somebody else is saying it besides me. Damn, it's about time, because this is crazy. Like these conversations just get wilder and wilder wilder, man. If there's things people are saying. I met one guy, Steven, he told me what he said. He said, go back to when you were 18 years old if you're depressed. I'm like, but what if I hated myself at 18? You know what saying? Like this is the kind of advice somebody's giving. And I'm like, yeah, man, I got to step back. It's like, whoa, but you got to I can't talk to you about these kind of things. Like you're saying wild statements out here making these kind of things, you know. Maddie Andrews: That's great advice. Steven: with it. Maddie Andrews: Thank Steven: You Pete "mental Health Champ": and all this other kind of stuff. So do you have any advice for anybody at home? Like anything like just in general that you just like you want people to like stop leaving? Like, hey, listen, these are these are some things that you should probably understand. Steven: Well, that'd be pretty cautious of advice like that you're getting on the internet. I mean, that's for sure. And the main advice is to go to someone you trust. I mean, if it's your family doctor, if it's someone you know in the community who is very trustworthy, it could be a religious leader or someone close to your family if you have any relatives who are in the mental health field or something like that. You know, stick to your circle, to people that are close to you before you reach out to some stranger, you know, who's Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Maddie Andrews: Thank Steven: 10,000 miles away telling you to take a hot bath or something. I don't know Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ God, yeah. Yeah, there's some wild statements in me. Maddie and I met a woman last week who told us to people to stop taking their psychiatric meds. I was like, yeah, we can't be a part of this. No. Hell no. She's like, I defund the doctors. I sue them all the time. like, what? I'm like, and I was trying to get answers from her, but you because I was like, all right, everybody has an opinion. Come on in. Let's hear it. Steven: ⁓ no. No, you don't want to be a part of that. Maddie Andrews: No. No. Pete "mental Health Champ": Let's explore why you feel this way." But she couldn't get any answers. She kept like she was fixated. And then she was mad because she got diagnosed lifetime with bipolar. I was like, well, maybe that's what she's like, they won't read diagnose you maybe because that's what you have though. know, when you like so my question you in that sense is like when you get a lifetime diagnosis somebody, there's no way to read diagnose that is there or is that just Steven: Yeah, it's challenge in mental health. mean, a lot of these things can be managed with medication like bipolar with the right medication, you can manage it. Can you cure it? I don't know if you can exactly cure it. We don't have those kinds of things yet. Maybe eventually down the road we'll get cures for depression, for anxiety, for bipolar, but, and schizophrenia. I mean, we hope for those days. I mean, we try, but. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. ⁓ no. Yeah. Yeah. Steven: We're just not there yet. So if you can find a good way to manage those kinds of behaviors, that's what you wanna do. And if it takes medication to manage it and make your life better and more enjoyable and let you go forward, that's what you wanna do. Pete "mental Health Champ": Thank you. This is coming from someone that knows what he's talking about, everyone. That's the way that it should be presented to people. I think people forget that. It's like, if it lets you go forward, should, you know what mean? That's my thing. It's like, I don't ever tell anybody that medication is bad. I may not agree with it. It's not for me. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work for other people and things like that, too. And it's great that we have somebody that can actually speak to this for us, especially the fact that, Maddie Andrews: Yes. Pete "mental Health Champ": You're busy being a reality TV star now, know, guys, we even see Steve on TV when they're like, Hey, listen, we met that guy before. Suits. Maddie Andrews: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Steven: Hey, I'm behind the camera, not in front of the camera. Maddie Andrews: It's bad. Pete "mental Health Champ": He's going to pop on the camera one time, watch. going be like the real therapist of Canada or something. And he's going be on there like, he's just going be out there doing like a tell-all of everybody's shit. He's like, you know what? Let me tell you about some of these stories I got here for you. So Stephen, what are you working on these days? Are you doing anything exciting? Any new projects that you can tell us about? Any? Steven: Right. Maddie Andrews: You Steven: Well, I'm actually writing a book about the reality TV experience. I'm writing a book called The Psychology of Reality TV. And what I talk about in there are some of these, what we call archetypes, the different kinds of people that we see on these shows, because they're like people you know in real life, right? There's people like the chaos agent, the person who's always causing chaos wherever they go, you know, whether they want to or not. ⁓ Maddie Andrews: Mmm. Pete "mental Health Champ": Ooh, I like this. Yeah. That's me. That's me, the chaos agent. there. Yep. Steven: And you know, we have the over competitor, the person who's always competing for a prize. Doesn't matter what you're doing. You're making pancakes. They want to make the best pancakes. it's a competitive type person. We have the hot mess express. That's person who's just emotional, just flooding the world with their emotions all over the time, a place. Comic relief, the person who's making everyone laugh. Doesn't take too many things seriously, but is always joking around, you know, keeping things moving. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Steven: So I've got about 12 of these archetypes and ⁓ what I do in the book is I go through each one and show you how they are in reality TV but then show you how they are in the real world. Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ that's really cool. Okay. I like that comparison. So when's the book coming out though? Do you have a date for it yet? Ooh. Okay. Okay. ⁓ Steven: I don't have a date yet. still actually, I'm still working on a publisher. that's, so I'm a few steps away from getting it out, but I'm working away on getting it done. Maddie Andrews: Mmm. Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay. Well, you definitely have to keep, we'll keep in touch everybody because we're definitely gonna have them come back and talk to us because we want to know more. I think it'll be very interesting cause we'll have Steven break it down for us as we go through the book. Cause I'm interested in about a lot of this stuff. Cause I love that. I think that's great how you're, doing the archetype versus, know, what it's, where it looked like, you know, give people an idea of what they're looking at, you know, but like I said, I'm, I'm the crazy, I'm the chaos factor, man. I'll tell you, I know that's me right here. I love chaos. I don't know what it is. I just live in it all day. Maddie Andrews: Yes. Thank Steven: Hehehehehe Maddie Andrews: No. Pete "mental Health Champ": I live in it all day. Trust me. I like always wake up and like what does my friend from Canada say? She always says she's in the Vancouver Island area. She goes, are we choosing violence today? I'm like, yeah, I've chosen violence. Say like every day. It's all of that. Some days I just tell you, yeah, just to get her upset. All right, what are we doing today? I don't know. Yeah, I'm deciding I'll figure it out how to upset people in 10 seconds or less. You know what mean? Like I just always, but Steven: Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": That's so cool though. mean, like I know when we met, I know we were talking about the book a little bit. We still don't have a date yet, which is okay because like I said, we'll invite you, definitely come back. Are you any social, any reality TV projects right now or are you just kind of doing whatever? Steven: Yeah, doing a few shows. We're doing the Amazing Race Canada is happening right now and MasterChef Canada is happening right now. Getting ready for Canada Shore for a second season. That's going to be starting up in a little while. And the Great Canadian Baking Show is on right now. So there's a lot of projects going on right now that I've been involved with and it's a pretty busy time. Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay. MasterChef Canada. All right. OK. Caught my interest again. Hell yeah. Yeah, see, that's a good one too. So MasterChef, let me ask you, what kind of interviews are you doing with them? Is it just same thing? You're trying to make sure that they're going to be on TV, so you want to make sure that they're not going to freak out from the criticism, basically? Steven: Yeah, they gotta be able to handle the criticism, they gotta handle the stress. You when you do these shows, there's a lot of wait time when you're doing nothing, waiting for the competition. So you gotta be able to make it through waiting for hours and hours and then you're on, you know, for an hour of intense, you know, cooking in this case, or baking in the baking show. So it's really making sure that you can handle those times and what happens with them. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah, because you know, I watched MasterChef Canada a few times. The guy with the blue hair, the demon, whatever. I can't remember what his name is, but I know who he is when you see him. I love that dude. But he's always so like really harsh with people, though. So I can only imagine the phone calls you're getting after someone talks to him. Maddie Andrews: I am. Steven: Yeah, he is. It's yeah, it can be tough sometimes once the show airs and you get to see yourself and say, oh my God, did I say that? Did I do that? And sometimes you have to help them get through the way they appear on TV. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Matty, were saying something. Maddie Andrews: I think the lesson for me is that I am not cut out for reality television. It's not for me. Pete "mental Health Champ": Ha ha. Steven: Yeah, it's not for a lot of people. You're not the only one. There's many people. Pete "mental Health Champ": Well, because everybody wants to do it though, man. Think about it. like, ⁓ you want to be a guest on the show, sign up for this. So think about it, because like the 90s, had Nick Arcade and all those other things like Nickelodeon in the States. They were filming in Florida, had all those kids on the TV shows doing all those things, Global Guts and all those other like really interactive live television shows they were doing. What was it? ⁓ The one with Mark Summers. can't think of what it is. Double Dare. They had Double Dare and all those different things. You know, the competitiveness of all those kind of things. Do you ever get called in for any of those kind of projects back in the 90s? Was that ever something? Maddie Andrews: Yeah. ⁓ double dare. Steven: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I worked on Scare Tactics, if you remember that one. Yeah, Tracy Morgan was the host. So that was kind of my first scare show. And then we did something called Panic Button. There's a few of them. The producer of that show did some really cool stuff. He was really into those wild scare shows. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ yeah, yeah, one of our scare tactics, ⁓ okay. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that one too. Love Fear Factor was an interesting one too. Just like the things those people had to go through and the crazy stuff. Like, we're gonna put a bunch of spiders on you. I'm like, yeah, I don't think so. I'm out. Nope, nope. I don't know how much I want money. Steven: Yeah. Maddie Andrews: Mmm. Steven: Yeah, that was one of the first ones. So you gotta be pretty narcissistic to be on one of these shows. We test them for narcissism and that's one area you gotta score. That's why, Maddie, you're not gonna like it. You're not gonna score high on narcissism. You're not gonna wanna be on the show. Maddie Andrews: ⁓ Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay Maddie Andrews: Hahaha Pete "mental Health Champ": Right? It's like, you're not narcissistic enough, can't be on the show. I'm sorry. You know, you just don't fit the test enough for us. What's that up? Sorry. Like I just remember those reality shows back in the day. Then all those things came out from the like the 90s. Remember like Netflix came up with that whole thing where they're talking about some of the child stars and all of the things that were happening in the back scene, like all that and all these other ones that we always watch. You know, are you afraid of dark? Like, like people forget that show was very dark. That show was, that show was horrifying. Or was it the one with the guy from, um, Maddie Andrews: you Steven: Yeah. Maddie Andrews: That scared me. Yes. Pete "mental Health Champ": What is it? Factor fiction the one with the guys from I can't think of his name is the guy who did Star Trek Captain was on there He was the original guy who did it Unsolved mysteries of the other one too that I could just imagine was like being like doing those kind of shows and things like that Steven: Those are true crime thriller kinds of shows. They're not really reality shows. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. I know, Stephen. It's OK. Don't judge me, all right? I'm just reminiscing over here. Steven: Hahaha! Maddie Andrews: hahahaha Steven: I'm just sort of staying in my lane, right? Pete "mental Health Champ": It's like it's like listen Pete by the way where this is I'm like listen I'm playing the chaos factor right now. Hold on. Let me finish over Well, Stephen, it's been great having you man. It was great seeing you again I absolutely loved having you you're definitely coming back as soon as we figure out the date for the book So we can explore them. Yeah, me too Hell yeah, I'm down. I'm down 100 % I think it'd be interesting Maddie Andrews: I'm sorry. Steven: That's right. Maddie Andrews: Yes! Yes, I want to read that book. I want to read the book. Yes. Steven: Okay. You want to the book? Okay. I'll get you. All right. Absolutely. We'll get it to you as soon as we get this thing done. Pete "mental Health Champ": I'm going to sit there and label every single person is one of those categories too. I'm going to figure out what person I'm going have a whole lineup for Stephen. All right, Stephen, these are who I got. These are the candidates for these positions. And he's going to be laughing hysterically. He's reading this email like, ⁓ God, Pete, what are you doing? Well, Stephen, we have Maddie Andrews: Yeah Steven: That's great. Maddie Andrews: I appreciate you coming on. Steven: ⁓ great, thank you Maddie. Pete "mental Health Champ": It's so great, man. It was so great having you, Steven. It's great seeing you again, man. We're going to definitely meet up again for sure. Definitely keep us posted on the date for the book so we can get you on here again. We'll go through and we'll talk about it and get all that stuff figured out for you, man. But thank you so much. Come hang out, man. It was great. We loved having you. It was very informative. We loved that you came and spent some time with us. Do you have any final last words you want to say to anybody before we sign off? Steven: All right. Thanks for having me and if you want to learn more about hardiness, you can get our book which is called Hardiness. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yep, definitely. Right? Get the book. Well guys, with that being said, we're going to wrap up this episode of Voice of the Voiceless. I'm Pete. Matty, say bye to the kids. Guys, and as always, say be bold, be brave, be one of the Voice of the Voiceless. Until next time, guys, we'll see you later. Maddie Andrews: Get the book everybody! Steven: Yeah Maddie Andrews: Bye y'all!