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Transcript

The Kevin Harlan Interview · The Chuck ToddCast

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello there.
0:00
Speaker 2: Welcome to our third and final episode on the history
0:02
Speaker 2: of the Green Bay Packers, a team unlike any other
0:06
Speaker 2: in any sport. I'm Chuck Todd, and our guest today
0:10
Speaker 2: has been part of the Packers story since he was
0:14
Speaker 2: a child.
0:16
Speaker 1: You know his voice from the NFL, the NBA, and
0:18
Speaker 1: March Madness, and probably for his call of, with no
0:21
Speaker 1: regard for human life, describing a monster LeBron James dunk.
0:26
Speaker 3: We are talking, of course, the great Kevin Harlan.
0:29
Speaker 2: He grew up In Green Bay, his father, Bob Harlan,
0:33
Speaker 2: led the Packers as president and arguably helped build the
0:37
Speaker 2: team that brought the Lombardi Trophy back home in 1997.
0:41
Speaker 3: In many ways, he helped.
0:44
Speaker 2: Create the chapter the Packers are still living to this day.
0:50
Speaker 1: And speaking of chapters, Kevin Harlan is like a history book,
0:53
Speaker 1: a walking, talking, living history book on the Packers. Apparently
0:57
Speaker 1: when he's following his dad around, he wasn't just tagging along,
0:59
Speaker 1: holding his hand. He was absorbing everything. You'll hear a
1:02
Speaker 1: lot of the rich history of this great franchise from
1:06
Speaker 1: Kevin as he recaps so much in our interview segment.
1:09
Speaker 2: This is a reminder to me that isn't it great
1:12
Speaker 2: that when he was a child, he didn't have to
1:14
Speaker 2: always look at his phone. And instead he was looking
1:18
Speaker 2: up and absorbing and learning and getting all this history.
1:22
Speaker 2: You know, these days you never know, right? If he
1:24
Speaker 2: grew up with today says he might've had his head
1:25
Speaker 2: in his phone and and never seen all this history.
1:28
Speaker 2: But thank goodness for that.
1:30
Speaker 1: There's so many ways if you want to emulate, especially
1:32
Speaker 1: if you want to go into broadcasting, you can do
1:34
Speaker 1: a lot worse than emulating Kevin Harlan. But yeah, that'd
1:37
Speaker 1: be a great place to start. Paying attention to the
1:38
Speaker 1: world around you, not having your, to this day, right?
1:40
Speaker 1: He's not a social media guy. He's not chronically online.
1:44
Speaker 1: He's constantly preparing. Well, with all those jobs that we described,
1:47
Speaker 1: he doesn't have time for social media. He's always getting
1:50
Speaker 1: ready for the next game.
1:51
Speaker 3: Well, you know what?
1:52
Speaker 2: And it's a great way for us to sort of
1:54
Speaker 2: finish the introduction on this one. the reason what makes
1:57
Speaker 2: him a great sports broadcaster is he's always present in
2:01
Speaker 2: the moment, right? And it's not a bad life lesson,
2:06
Speaker 2: and it certainly is a good way to learn how
2:08
Speaker 2: to be one of the great broadcasters of all time.
2:11
Speaker 1: And he revels in the moment. Before we get started,
2:13
Speaker 1: a reminder to follow us on social media at DynasticPod,
2:16
Speaker 1: and to follow, like, and review us wherever you listen
2:19
Speaker 1: to your podcasts and on our YouTube channel.
2:22
Speaker 3: And with that, here's our interview with Kevin Harlan.
2:24
Speaker 1: Kevin Harlan, welcome to Dynastic. And we'll start by asking
2:28
Speaker 1: you about your family moving to Green Bay in the
2:31
Speaker 1: early 70s when your dad joined the Packers front office.
2:35
Speaker 1: I'm curious, what was it like to be a kid
2:36
Speaker 1: in a town where the NFL team just basically dominates
2:40
Speaker 1: every aspect of the civic life?
2:43
Speaker 4: It was eye-opening. We moved from St.
2:45
Speaker 1: Louis.
2:46
Speaker 4: My dad, J.A. and Chuck, was with the St. Louis Cardinals,
2:52
Speaker 4: baseball Cardinals. Football Cardinals were there. This is in the
2:55
Speaker 4: early 70s. So my dad was in the locker room
2:58
Speaker 4: with Bob Gibson and Lou Brock and Dal Maxville and
3:02
Speaker 4: Tim McCarver and Mike Shannon and Roger Maris and Orlando Cepeda.
3:07
Speaker 4: And as a kid, he would bring us not just
3:09
Speaker 4: to spring training down in Florida, but also get to
3:12
Speaker 4: go with him once a week to a Cardinal home game.
3:15
Speaker 4: My day was Sunday. We'd go to church. We'd drive
3:18
Speaker 4: down to Bush Stadium. for the game that afternoon. And
3:22
Speaker 4: that's where I got to see the legendary broadcasters, Jack
3:26
Speaker 4: Buck and Vin Scully and Bob Prince and Lindsey Nelson
3:31
Speaker 4: and all these great voices of Major League Baseball, which
3:35
Speaker 4: kind of got me into this world of, what is
3:39
Speaker 4: this broadcasting thing all about? I was about seven or eight,
3:41
Speaker 4: but that's where it began. And then he took the
3:44
Speaker 4: job when Dan Devine left the University of Missouri, where
3:48
Speaker 4: he had been an incredibly talented successful head coach of
3:52
Speaker 4: the tigers. He called the baseball Cardinals and said, I'm
3:56
Speaker 4: looking to bring a young person in your organization, um,
4:01
Speaker 4: up to green Bay to run my front office, handle
4:03
Speaker 4: my contracts and do those things. And my dad looking
4:07
Speaker 4: maybe to get out of baseball in the everyday elongated season,
4:11
Speaker 4: which was not conducive to families. And I was one
4:14
Speaker 4: of the three, I'm the oldest of three boys. Um,
4:17
Speaker 4: And he had gone to Marquette as a journalism major.
4:20
Speaker 4: So he was familiar with the Packers, knew the state.
4:22
Speaker 4: I was born in outside of Milwaukee. So we had
4:26
Speaker 4: roots already in the state. And he gladly accepted the
4:30
Speaker 4: job and moved up there. And we got to be
4:33
Speaker 4: throughout our teenage years, ball boys, work in the press
4:37
Speaker 4: box during games. But just be a part, Jay, to
4:42
Speaker 4: your point of the The aura of Green Bay. Now, listen,
4:46
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a small town. The football stadium sits
4:49
Speaker 4: in the middle of a residential area. And at the time,
4:53
Speaker 4: there were no massive parking lots. There was no big
4:57
Speaker 4: entertainment district. It was truly a football stadium surrounded by
5:02
Speaker 4: one neighborhood after another. So it was very collegiate like
5:06
Speaker 4: in terms of setting. And that made it very neat. Clearly,
5:11
Speaker 4: the Packers, the biggest thing in town, their history spoke
5:13
Speaker 4: for itself. But we got there in 71 when I
5:16
Speaker 4: was 10, and the dynasty had basically ended. Starr was
5:21
Speaker 4: ending his career, later became a quarterback coach, later became
5:25
Speaker 4: the head coach. But really, the Lombardi, Nitschke, those days
5:31
Speaker 4: had come and gone, and they were entering this stage
5:34
Speaker 4: with Dan Devine. Because Phil Bengston, who was Lombardi's number
5:38
Speaker 4: one coach, took over when Vince went to Washington. after
5:42
Speaker 4: being a Packer general manager for a year. And so
5:47
Speaker 4: it was truly a different feel in Green Bay. But
5:51
Speaker 4: the aura, the glow of what had been in the
5:55
Speaker 4: 60s was still very present and wondering, could they ever
5:59
Speaker 4: achieve that again?
6:01
Speaker 2: So walk me through sort of that as the glow faded.
6:06
Speaker 2: Because I always tell people I became a Packer fan.
6:10
Speaker 2: I didn't know I was a left. you know, I
6:13
Speaker 2: couldn't be anything else. That's what my father forced on me.
6:17
Speaker 2: And I had, I had, you know, I had David Whitehurst.
6:21
Speaker 3: I had Lynn Dickey.
6:23
Speaker 2: I got excited about Makowski. So the point being is,
6:28
Speaker 2: so you're 10 or 11, right? And you, you at
6:30
Speaker 2: least know of the Lombardi. You saw some of that.
6:34
Speaker 2: Could you feel the, was faith getting lost at the
6:38
Speaker 2: end of the seventies and the early eighties?
6:40
Speaker 3: What was that?
6:41
Speaker 2: Attitude like what was the community like as this sort
6:45
Speaker 2: of wait we're not winning now we have another coach
6:49
Speaker 2: and we're not winning.
6:51
Speaker 4: You know chuck um this is clearly before internet social
6:55
Speaker 4: media and all the things that we take for granted
6:58
Speaker 4: in our day-to-day lives now especially the three of us
7:01
Speaker 4: being in the in the business and i mean yeah
7:05
Speaker 4: there was there was a thought about that i think
7:07
Speaker 4: they knew it was something historic it clearly has grown
7:12
Speaker 4: in appreciation and in lore over the years about what
7:16
Speaker 4: he did in the 60s. I think people would truly
7:19
Speaker 4: point out was kind of the beginning of what the
7:22
Speaker 4: NFL is today, this massive, you know, far reaching, total
7:28
Speaker 4: encompassing sport. But back then, you know, in the early
7:32
Speaker 4: 70s and into the mid 70s, it was, you know,
7:36
Speaker 4: in a small town, the most unlikely story in the
7:39
Speaker 4: history of sports. especially professional sports. I don't know that
7:44
Speaker 4: it really translated. Newspapers were the primary source of getting
7:50
Speaker 4: your information. Film was used on TV. Sports, there was
7:57
Speaker 4: no ESPN. There was like none of that stuff. So
8:00
Speaker 4: I don't know that the outside forces and just the
8:04
Speaker 4: impact that media has on framing sports teams and stories
8:10
Speaker 4: and legacies and lore was as much in our face
8:15
Speaker 4: as it seems to be now. You know, the Brady
8:18
Speaker 4: thing with Belichick for 20 years in New England clearly
8:21
Speaker 4: was there. Walsh in San Francisco, Jimmy Johnson in Dallas,
8:25
Speaker 4: like Knoll in Pittsburgh, like these are all things that
8:29
Speaker 4: because they've happened in more modern electronic journalistic internet times
8:36
Speaker 4: have had maybe a little bit more staying power. But
8:39
Speaker 4: there's always a beginning. People don't realize that the Cleveland
8:43
Speaker 4: Browns in the 50s were the Packers of the 60s.
8:47
Speaker 4: But no one ever talks about the Browns of Otto
8:50
Speaker 4: Graham in the 50s. But he was as great a
8:54
Speaker 4: player as the league had had. That team was a powerhouse.
8:58
Speaker 4: But the Packers kind of coincided with television and the
9:02
Speaker 4: networks discovering pro football. And really, the linchpin was the
9:06
Speaker 4: 58 championship game with a Colts Alan Amici touchdown run.
9:13
Speaker 4: And that really was the captivating kind of the moment
9:17
Speaker 4: that people said, wait a minute, pro football? It's always
9:21
Speaker 4: been baseball. It's always been college football. So then the
9:24
Speaker 4: Packers came in the heels of that in the 60s
9:27
Speaker 4: with the, you know, smallest market. How could this team
9:30
Speaker 4: possibly survive without an owner? Here's Vince Lombardi from New
9:33
Speaker 4: York coming, you know, one of the four great college players.
9:37
Speaker 4: The blocks are granted. How could he come to to
9:39
Speaker 4: Green Bay and do what he did, but he did.
9:43
Speaker 4: This is all pre-free agency, pre-Plan B, pre-all this stuff,
9:48
Speaker 4: pre-big contracts. So I don't know that people really got
9:54
Speaker 4: the day-to-day impact of what they had just gone through,
9:58
Speaker 4: as unlikely as it was. to what it was in
10:01
Speaker 4: the 70s and how the league began to grow. And
10:04
Speaker 4: then you saw, okay, the team's not playing as well
10:07
Speaker 4: after this great dynastic run. Like, now, you know, I
10:12
Speaker 4: think they were kind of like groping in the dark,
10:14
Speaker 4: finding the right head coach. They had Forrest Gregg. They
10:17
Speaker 4: had Bart Starr. They had all these guys from the
10:22
Speaker 4: past that came into coach, but it never really worked,
10:25
Speaker 4: never clicked. And then that evolved into the 90s and
10:31
Speaker 4: the hiring of a general manager and a very futuristic
10:35
Speaker 4: coach in Mike Holmgren, hitting it with some draft choices,
10:38
Speaker 4: getting the right quarterback, and they reclaimed what they had
10:41
Speaker 4: in the 60s. But it didn't happen until the early
10:43
Speaker 4: 90s again.
10:46
Speaker 1: Kevin, you called the Packers the most unlikely story in sports.
10:49
Speaker 1: And in addition to providing us the title for this episode,
10:52
Speaker 1: thank you very much, I'm curious why you bestow that
10:57
Speaker 1: label on them.
11:00
Speaker 4: They're owned by literally the fans in the stands. Now,
11:04
Speaker 4: the league has been kind of, now you're kind of self-reliant,
11:08
Speaker 4: these teams are, on TV revenue and sales of merchandise
11:14
Speaker 4: and the suites they have and the parking around the
11:16
Speaker 4: stadium and the tents and all the things now. But
11:19
Speaker 4: there was a time, and especially, first of all, the
11:23
Speaker 4: NFL was not the NFL until 1922, but it was
11:28
Speaker 4: before that. It was like the American Professional Football Association,
11:34
Speaker 4: where a loose group of small towns combined to field
11:40
Speaker 4: these kind of semi-pro football teams back in the late
11:46
Speaker 4: 1800s into the 1900s. Green Bay happened to be on
11:49
Speaker 4: that map with Duluth and small towns all over the Midwest, basically.
11:55
Speaker 4: Some in the East, clearly. And they got more uniformed
12:00
Speaker 4: as time went on. The Packers began with the good
12:07
Speaker 4: money supply from the Indian Packing Company, which was eventually
12:11
Speaker 4: bought by a Chicago-based company acme packing company and i'm
12:16
Speaker 4: going to say chicago a lot here because chicago and
12:19
Speaker 4: the bears have been almost part and parcel with why
12:22
Speaker 4: the packers survived in the 20s in the 30s in
12:26
Speaker 4: the 40s and and and down the down the road.
12:29
Speaker 3: I know we joke bears fans if they really knew how.
12:31
Speaker 2: Much they knew they would really be angry Well.
12:36
Speaker 4: I mean, George Halas knew the value of what keeping
12:40
Speaker 4: what was close-knit and together and working as one. It
12:45
Speaker 4: was the earliest stages of what we've got now. Every
12:49
Speaker 4: team is worth one 32nd of revenue sharing in the NFL. Thus,
12:54
Speaker 4: you've got this model that all sports aspire to. But
12:58
Speaker 4: in the day, it was literally handing out the hat
13:02
Speaker 4: among the the spectators at halftime. It was paying for
13:06
Speaker 4: your ticket and then maybe giving a donation. And the
13:09
Speaker 4: Packers had to sell stock to keep the team going.
13:12
Speaker 4: So they sold stock to fans and it was non-revenue producing.
13:18
Speaker 4: It didn't really entitle you to anything except here you go.
13:22
Speaker 4: Here's my $ 200 gift. I get this certificate and that's
13:26
Speaker 4: kind of it. And the Packers have had subsequent sales
13:29
Speaker 4: of stock over the years and until this engine could
13:33
Speaker 4: really get up and running. And for the Packers, that
13:36
Speaker 4: engine really was not up and running until the early 2000s,
13:40
Speaker 4: until they added on to Lambeau Field and became more self-sustainable.
13:46
Speaker 4: Most of the items are owned by owners. So they
13:49
Speaker 4: had deep pockets and they could continue. But there are
13:52
Speaker 4: some families that were football only. The Roonies, the Maras,
13:55
Speaker 4: Green Bay was owned by the fans and had to be,
13:58
Speaker 4: football was their business. It wasn't like they owned a,
14:02
Speaker 4: whatever company and that owner owned the team and then
14:06
Speaker 4: he could dip inside his own, you know, coffers, his
14:08
Speaker 4: own pocket and pay for the team to stay, you know, solvent.
14:13
Speaker 4: The Packers didn't have that. So they needed a guy
14:16
Speaker 4: like George Halas to see the value of a team
14:18
Speaker 4: that had really been a quality team beginning with Curly
14:22
Speaker 4: Lambeau to say self-sufficient and by virtue of some loans
14:27
Speaker 4: from Halas and the Bears and a Chicago company buying
14:31
Speaker 4: a green Bay sponsor for the Packers. I mean, all
14:35
Speaker 4: these things are, are very much a part of this
14:37
Speaker 4: gigantic puzzle that make the Packers of what they are today.
14:43
Speaker 2: I feel like your father had a vision when he
14:46
Speaker 2: met it. And so the transition, he hires Ron Wolf
14:50
Speaker 2: and you drop the Milwaukee series, right? The, the, the
14:55
Speaker 2: idea of splitting home games and, and, it almost seemed
15:00
Speaker 2: as it looks obvious now, right? When you see the
15:04
Speaker 2: amazing complex, the fan zone, that experience, Lambeau is now
15:08
Speaker 2: a destination. Is that what he, what he was, was
15:12
Speaker 2: that the vision he saw when in, in 1990 and 91,
15:16
Speaker 2: when sort of, which feels like the real page turn
15:20
Speaker 2: to sort of the era that we're in today.
15:22
Speaker 4: Well, you're right, Chuck. It was a kind of a
15:25
Speaker 4: watershed moment, but it, When they left Milwaukee, first of all,
15:31
Speaker 4: Milwaukee played a huge role for the Packers because as
15:35
Speaker 4: they found out, they needed a major metropolitan area. And
15:39
Speaker 4: if you want to call Milwaukee that, which is I
15:41
Speaker 4: think viewed as more of a midsize, but it was
15:45
Speaker 4: a major city, much bigger than Green Bay. They needed
15:49
Speaker 4: to have the Milwaukee Association to play games there and
15:53
Speaker 4: to spread out where the money was coming from. Could
15:56
Speaker 4: Green Bay handle seven home games a year? But if
15:59
Speaker 4: you put a couple in Milwaukee, it alleviated the financial
16:02
Speaker 4: strain of the Green Bay season ticket holder to support
16:04
Speaker 4: the team for seven games and a couple of preseason
16:08
Speaker 4: and shoulder it with the Milwaukee sports-based fan who had
16:12
Speaker 4: the Braves and had professional teams. And it was a
16:14
Speaker 4: big market and Fortune 500 companies to help with this.
16:19
Speaker 4: So Milwaukee was huge. But what they were finding is
16:23
Speaker 4: they were going through the 90s and the team was
16:25
Speaker 4: building some success. the Green Bay product and atmosphere, culture,
16:31
Speaker 4: and infrastructure was producing more than Milwaukee. And you were
16:35
Speaker 4: taking what was more of a moneymaker in Green Bay
16:39
Speaker 4: from what was not a losing proposition in Milwaukee, but
16:42
Speaker 4: not as good as Green Bay was becoming because the
16:45
Speaker 4: team was getting better and the ticket prices were rising
16:48
Speaker 4: and the revenue from TV was climbing. And the stadium
16:51
Speaker 4: was getting antiquated in Milwaukee too. They were playing in
16:54
Speaker 4: a baseball stadium, Lambeau's football only. So one day he
16:58
Speaker 4: is sitting in his office after the move from Milwaukee.
17:01
Speaker 4: This is about 1999. And the treasurer comes into his
17:04
Speaker 4: office and closes the door and sits down and says,
17:07
Speaker 4: got him John Underwood. My dad called him Johnny U
17:10
Speaker 4: because he loved the NFL. And after Johnny, anyway, so
17:13
Speaker 4: the treasurer comes in and these are businessmen in Green
17:17
Speaker 4: Bay that are part of the board. They own envelope
17:20
Speaker 4: companies and automobile dealerships and a health care system. Like, see,
17:26
Speaker 4: these are just businessmen. who are part of this seven-man
17:28
Speaker 4: executive committee. And within this committee, they hear, you're the secretary,
17:32
Speaker 4: you're the treasurer, you're so on. So the treasurer comes
17:35
Speaker 4: in and says, Bob, we're going to go broke in
17:37
Speaker 4: two years if we don't do something. So they do
17:40
Speaker 4: this stock sale. But my dad says, we've got to
17:44
Speaker 4: make Lambeau Field not just a seven-date-a-year destination or 10-day,
17:52
Speaker 4: however you want to look at it. We need to
17:53
Speaker 4: make it more of a year-round thing that can generate
17:57
Speaker 4: revenue for our team. We have no owner. We rely
18:00
Speaker 4: on NFL properties with the sale of items, the TV contracts,
18:05
Speaker 4: the shared revenue from other sources, but we don't have
18:09
Speaker 4: any suites. We have none of this stuff. We've got
18:12
Speaker 4: to enhance this. So he began this long two-year journey
18:18
Speaker 4: of going out and selling to the people of Brown County,
18:22
Speaker 4: which is where Green Bay is, where that stadium is
18:25
Speaker 4: smack dab in the middle of, and going literally door
18:28
Speaker 4: to door, asking for support for the residents of Green
18:32
Speaker 4: Bay to support a half cent sales tax to support
18:38
Speaker 4: making the stadium self-sufficient so that the franchise could survive,
18:43
Speaker 4: because it was not financially going to. And he went
18:47
Speaker 4: to factories, multiple factories in the area, and was there
18:53
Speaker 4: when the guys got off at six in the morning.
18:57
Speaker 4: As they were walking out, the new crew was walking in.
19:00
Speaker 4: He would stand there. He had people spit on his shoes.
19:03
Speaker 4: They would not shake his hand. They would not look
19:05
Speaker 4: him in the eye. He had doors shut in his face,
19:08
Speaker 4: but he had to stay persistent because he knew if
19:10
Speaker 4: this did not pass, the money, where were they going
19:13
Speaker 4: to get it? It was going to be almost impossible
19:17
Speaker 4: to sustain what they had. And just by the grace
19:20
Speaker 4: of God and hard work by him and others, they
19:23
Speaker 4: were able to deal with the legislature in the state,
19:26
Speaker 4: get it passed. And it passed by, you know, you
19:29
Speaker 4: would think it would go to lose the Packers. Surely
19:31
Speaker 4: they would just be overwhelming. It was like 50.9, 50.5
19:36
Speaker 4: and 49.5. It was like razor thin. And here's the
19:40
Speaker 4: part that people don't remember. When that vote was taken
19:43
Speaker 4: in the year 2000 and narrowly passed, If it didn't pass,
19:48
Speaker 4: they were going to put it back on the ballot sheet.
19:50
Speaker 4: the following year. And the day they would have done that,
19:54
Speaker 4: the following year would have been September 11th, 2001. And
19:59
Speaker 4: we all know about that terrible Tuesday. And there's no way.
20:03
Speaker 4: What a weird coincidence. I know it. It wouldn't have
20:06
Speaker 4: passed if it didn't pass in 2000. It clearly would
20:09
Speaker 4: not have passed in 2001 with the state of our
20:12
Speaker 4: world at that time. So it was by the grace
20:15
Speaker 4: of God that it did pass by the narrowest of margins.
20:18
Speaker 4: And then they quickly built suites. They built the atrium.
20:21
Speaker 4: And they built some things that could produce some revenue
20:24
Speaker 4: that would keep the team on pace, on par. They
20:28
Speaker 4: don't want to be the richest, and they're clearly not.
20:31
Speaker 4: So they were not letting go of the rope because
20:35
Speaker 4: it would have been very easy to let go of
20:37
Speaker 4: the rope And everybody else pulling because they've got ownership.
20:40
Speaker 4: They've got big markets with which to work. They're getting
20:42
Speaker 4: revenue for a variety of areas with their suites and
20:47
Speaker 4: all the other ways they're making money. Green Bay didn't
20:49
Speaker 4: have that. So that moment became a pretty important part
20:54
Speaker 4: of the history of the Packers.
20:57
Speaker 1: Let's stay in the 1990s and free agency signing of
21:01
Speaker 1: Reggie White coming over from the Philadelphia Eagles. Obviously it
21:04
Speaker 1: was them. an all-time great defensive lineman, but what did
21:07
Speaker 1: it mean for maybe the perception of the franchise as
21:10
Speaker 1: much as anything else?
21:12
Speaker 4: Well, first and foremost, and it may not even sound
21:16
Speaker 4: like that, really, it was not that at that time,
21:18
Speaker 4: but African-American players did not want to play in Green Bay.
21:23
Speaker 4: In fact, teams would threaten players that would not sign contracts.
21:27
Speaker 4: You don't sign, I'm sending to Green Bay. You're going
21:29
Speaker 4: to the NFL Siberia. And frankly, at the time, The
21:36
Speaker 4: minority population in Green Bay was not great. Simple things
21:40
Speaker 4: like just finding someone to cut your hair, finding restaurants
21:44
Speaker 4: that you might like, things that you could do socially.
21:47
Speaker 4: It was really not, even though they had been a
21:50
Speaker 4: professional team for decades, players would drive to Milwaukee. They
21:55
Speaker 4: would go to Chicago on that day off. They had
21:58
Speaker 4: really nothing to do and no one wanted to play there.
22:01
Speaker 4: So when they approached who at that time was the
22:05
Speaker 4: single and kind of the very first big name that
22:09
Speaker 4: entered that world. He had his trip around the country
22:14
Speaker 4: to visit teams. He was in Detroit, and they were
22:17
Speaker 4: going to sign a contract with the Lions. And Reggie
22:22
Speaker 4: White saw the contract, looked great. He said, I promised
22:25
Speaker 4: Green Bay I would visit them, and I'm a man
22:28
Speaker 4: of my word, and I am going to visit them.
22:31
Speaker 4: And they said, well, I'm going to stay here. The
22:33
Speaker 4: agent said, I'm going to stay in Detroit. Finish this up.
22:36
Speaker 4: Do what you have to do. Then come back here.
22:38
Speaker 4: Let's sign this. Let's end this. And you become a lion.
22:42
Speaker 4: So he flies to Green Bay. And Ron Wolfe, the GM,
22:45
Speaker 4: picks him up at night. And they go to one
22:48
Speaker 4: of the few open restaurants at that time of night,
22:50
Speaker 4: which was a Red Lobster about two blocks from Lambeau Field.
22:53
Speaker 4: And they sat there and ate. And they kept open
22:56
Speaker 4: the restaurant late. And Ron Wolfe sold them on the Packers.
23:01
Speaker 4: and on the vision of Mike Holmgren and Favre and
23:05
Speaker 4: just what they were doing and how they were going
23:07
Speaker 4: to do it and what it was going to become.
23:11
Speaker 4: And he called his agent that night and he says,
23:13
Speaker 4: I'm not, you know, I'm not leaving tonight. I'll be
23:16
Speaker 4: there tomorrow. And the famous story is Holmgren calls Reggie
23:20
Speaker 4: White in his hotel room, you know, because Reggie, incredibly religious,
23:25
Speaker 4: spoke the word of God at every stop he could find,
23:28
Speaker 4: did things in the community that are legendary.
23:31
Speaker 1: And Holmgren called him.
23:33
Speaker 4: And said, Reggie, this is God. I know you're going
23:35
Speaker 4: to follow my word. Sign with Green Bay. And he
23:39
Speaker 4: made the call. Now, that may not have pushed him over,
23:42
Speaker 4: but I think he was sold on what the Green
23:44
Speaker 4: Bay experience could be. Signed a three-year, $ 14 million contract.
23:49
Speaker 4: By Reggie White coming to Green Bay, it changed the
23:54
Speaker 4: culture of the locker room. It changed the culture of
23:57
Speaker 4: the city. It opened doors. it opened avenues that really
24:03
Speaker 4: had not existed before and was as historic a moment
24:09
Speaker 4: for the Packer organization as all the Lombardi winning and
24:13
Speaker 4: all the Favre Rogers player procurement. It just, it signaled
24:21
Speaker 4: a new day in Green Bay. It was so far reaching.
24:26
Speaker 4: I don't even know if to this day people appreciate
24:28
Speaker 4: what signing him means And the person he was and
24:32
Speaker 4: his stature in the league meant to little Green Bay, Wisconsin.
24:37
Speaker 2: Look, I remember my own reaction at 22 at the time.
24:41
Speaker 2: It was like, because Green Bay never got these free agents.
24:45
Speaker 2: And granted, free agent was kind of new, but there's
24:47
Speaker 2: no way. This wasn't going to happen.
24:49
Speaker 3: And it did. And it was.
24:51
Speaker 2: It was like, oh, this is actually going to happen.
24:53
Speaker 2: They're going to go to a Super Bowl. And I
24:57
Speaker 2: guess now let's stay on the field. Let's get on
24:59
Speaker 2: the field.
25:00
Speaker 3: A little bit. And I'm curious how you view this.
25:07
Speaker 2: You look at this incredible run. More coaches than quarterbacks
25:13
Speaker 2: over a 30-year period. More head coaches than quarterbacks. And
25:18
Speaker 2: the diehard Packer fan would say, how come there's not
25:21
Speaker 2: more Super.
25:24
Speaker 3: Bowls? What is your explanation to that diehard fan?
25:29
Speaker 4: I don't know that I've got one, and I don't
25:31
Speaker 4: know that anybody that actually played on the team or
25:33
Speaker 4: coached the team during those years has one. Favre went
25:36
Speaker 4: to two, won one. Rodgers went to one and only
25:43
Speaker 4: one and won it. These are two Hall of Fame
25:45
Speaker 4: quarterbacks that, you know, now you've got Jordan Love, who's
25:49
Speaker 4: trying to fall in line and almost impossible to do
25:52
Speaker 4: when you talk about two guys as legendary as Favre
25:54
Speaker 4: and Rodgers. Hard to explain. Holmgren was that coach. You know,
25:59
Speaker 4: the interesting thing about Mike Holmgren and Ron Wolfe is
26:03
Speaker 4: that Holmgren liked what Parcells had gotten. In other words,
26:08
Speaker 4: GM and head coach. And Mike, who is incredibly bright
26:12
Speaker 4: and very sharp and clearly successful, wanted both. There were
26:18
Speaker 4: organizations that were desperate enough that would give him both
26:21
Speaker 4: and the money to back it up. And Seattle was
26:25
Speaker 4: one of those teams that did that. As it turned out,
26:30
Speaker 4: Ron Wolfe only stayed another couple years. Had Mike stayed,
26:34
Speaker 4: he would have been given the GM, although my dad
26:37
Speaker 4: always had thought that they were better separate, that the
26:40
Speaker 4: GM and the head coach should be separated.
26:42
Speaker 3: That's the history of the team. I'll be honest. Anytime
26:45
Speaker 3: it was the same person, it.
26:46
Speaker 4: Didn't go well.
26:47
Speaker 3: It didn't go well with Starr.
26:49
Speaker 4: No, it didn't. And, you know, if there is an
26:53
Speaker 4: organization that wants to give head coach both they're going
26:57
Speaker 4: on a limb and there's, I think a desperation because
27:00
Speaker 4: to get this guy, we got to give him total control.
27:03
Speaker 4: So there's a good and a bad part of it.
27:05
Speaker 4: You know, the downside is like, well, now he's kind
27:08
Speaker 4: of controlling everything football related, but the job is so
27:11
Speaker 4: massive with, with scouting and signing and being on top
27:16
Speaker 4: of all those things. You cannot do it with one person.
27:19
Speaker 4: It just, it's, it's proven. It just, it's, it's virtually impossible,
27:23
Speaker 4: especially today. with all the refinement and the advancements that
27:28
Speaker 4: have been made and the way that these kids are scouted.
27:31
Speaker 4: But at the time, that's what Mike wanted. And I
27:32
Speaker 4: don't blame him. He was as successful a coach as
27:36
Speaker 4: there was in the league and commanded an $ 8 million
27:38
Speaker 4: a year deal. And Paul Allen signed him and they
27:41
Speaker 4: got it done. And he took a team to a
27:43
Speaker 4: Super Bowl.
27:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, he worked.
27:45
Speaker 4: But he needed help. Ted Thompson, he got guys on there.
27:50
Speaker 4: But the timing wasn't right. Wolf wasn't ready to go.
27:53
Speaker 4: And and but only had a couple more years remaining
27:56
Speaker 4: with the team. And Mike was ready to go. But
27:59
Speaker 4: I don't know to your original question. I don't know
28:02
Speaker 4: if anyone can can say why the team was always good.
28:05
Speaker 4: They always competed. The quarterbacks never really fell down individually
28:09
Speaker 4: in terms of their individual performance. It will go back.
28:13
Speaker 4: We'll look back on that and say. They had Favre
28:17
Speaker 4: and Rodgers. For a combined 20-whatever-it-was years.
28:21
Speaker 3: Talk to an Atlanta Braves fan in the 90s.
28:23
Speaker 4: Yeah, right.
28:25
Speaker 3: Or how about a Buffalo Bills fan in the 90s?
28:26
Speaker 4: Exactly. With Jim Kelly and the K-Gun offense. I mean,
28:29
Speaker 4: you're talking about these incredibly talented teams that every year
28:33
Speaker 4: should do it. And what I guess it shows you
28:36
Speaker 4: is that the line to John Elway, it took Peyton
28:39
Speaker 4: Manning a while to eventually do it, and clearly took Elway,
28:43
Speaker 4: who then won a couple at the end of his career.
28:46
Speaker 4: But it took them a long time to get there.
28:49
Speaker 4: I don't know, Chuck, that there's any really one answer
28:53
Speaker 4: for that. But you're going to go down in history
28:55
Speaker 4: looking at these two quarterbacks that encompassed decades and only
29:01
Speaker 4: made three and won only two. And they probably could
29:04
Speaker 4: have gone, you know. And there's never been another organization,
29:08
Speaker 4: maybe except San Francisco, that had the back-to-back Hall of Famers, right?
29:11
Speaker 4: They had Montana to Young and then Favre to Rodgers.
29:15
Speaker 4: Then after that, I mean, it's hard to find any
29:17
Speaker 4: franchise that has coupled two Hall of Fame quarterbacks back-to-back
29:21
Speaker 4: and then long runs each of them. So it's... Well,
29:25
Speaker 4: and if they pull off the three-peat, right?
29:27
Speaker 3: If Love keeps this up, there's a chance.
29:29
Speaker 1: And that, you know... Wouldn't that be amazing?
29:32
Speaker 3: I know. That would be amazing.
29:34
Speaker 4: Unheard of.
29:34
Speaker 1: Unheard of. J.A. Kevin, the ice bowl was before your
29:38
Speaker 1: time behind the microphone, but I'm... sure you grew up
29:40
Speaker 1: with the lore and saw the NFL fit films, footage
29:43
Speaker 1: over and over again. If you can indulge us, if
29:47
Speaker 1: you had been at the microphone, that sub zero day
29:52
Speaker 1: at Lambeau field and star gets a snap and, you know,
29:56
Speaker 1: follows your Jerry Kramer in the end zone, how would
29:58
Speaker 1: you have called, that historic play in Packers Lord.
30:02
Speaker 4: Well, probably not different, much different than, than any of
30:04
Speaker 4: them did. The one thing I have noticed, and this
30:07
Speaker 4: is just for the broadcast geek in me is the
30:10
Speaker 4: Packer broadcast radio broadcast. I think it was with Gillespie.
30:15
Speaker 4: I think that was the broadcaster's name, Earl Gillespie. I
30:17
Speaker 4: could be wrong. I think that's who it was, but
30:21
Speaker 4: they had the window closed. So he was screaming so
30:24
Speaker 4: loud that, that his voice was echoing and did not
30:28
Speaker 4: have the full throat of the crowd reaction and the
30:32
Speaker 4: thud of gloves banging together and just the overall elation
30:38
Speaker 4: of what it was like to be in that stadium
30:41
Speaker 4: with the window open. I've not heard the TV, or
30:43
Speaker 4: if I have, it didn't come across with all the
30:46
Speaker 4: great equipment we have now, which can pick up all
30:48
Speaker 4: this stuff. But, you know, it was a pretty cut-and-dry play.
30:53
Speaker 4: And literally, you know, I've done plays like that in
30:56
Speaker 4: the Super Bowl, Malcolm Butler's interception or whatever, and really
31:00
Speaker 4: you just tell yourself, all right, this play, basics. Stay
31:05
Speaker 4: in your lane. Don't try to build it up. You'll
31:07
Speaker 4: get too emotionally wrapped up. Not that I care who wins,
31:10
Speaker 4: but just recalling the play the right way. So I
31:13
Speaker 4: think you're constantly saying, bring it back. Stick to your lane.
31:18
Speaker 4: You know, formation. Time and the clock. Here's the play,
31:22
Speaker 4: the consequence. There's the snap. Everything begins with a snap.
31:26
Speaker 4: So here's the snap. Scar follows the block of the
31:30
Speaker 4: right guard, trying to carve his way in, wiggling, squirming.
31:33
Speaker 1: He's in! You know, whatever.
31:34
Speaker 4: Whatever it might have been, but anybody would have called
31:38
Speaker 4: it like that. So I've always kind of held in
31:41
Speaker 4: the bigger moments, make it as simple but as clean
31:45
Speaker 4: as you can so that you're not lost on too
31:49
Speaker 4: much Nonsense. You know, when Mahomes, a couple years ago,
31:54
Speaker 4: hit his receiver in the end zone in overtime to
31:56
Speaker 4: beat San Francisco, I had to follow that same kind
32:01
Speaker 4: of procedure. Low shotgun snap, fakes the handoff, rolls to
32:04
Speaker 4: his right, throws on the run, in the end zone,
32:06
Speaker 4: caught for the... You know, you stay... You connect the
32:10
Speaker 4: dots with short sentences. Gets the snap, rolls to his right,
32:13
Speaker 4: cocks his arm, short pass into the... And the same
32:17
Speaker 4: thing would have been for the star... run over Jerry
32:19
Speaker 4: Kramer for that championship win.
32:25
Speaker 2: The Lambeau Leap, Leroy Butler. What's the origin story? What
32:31
Speaker 2: do you know of the origin story of the Lambeau Leap?
32:35
Speaker 4: The stadium in Milwaukee or Green Bay, the lines were terrific,
32:39
Speaker 4: but in the end zone in particular, the wall was short.
32:44
Speaker 4: I don't know if they had done it before because
32:46
Speaker 4: I don't know if there had been a play that
32:48
Speaker 4: really resonated as much as the Butler play did, but
32:52
Speaker 4: it was so, you know, it was such a big play.
32:56
Speaker 4: And then, and just, and like, without almost hesitation, he
32:59
Speaker 4: leaps up, the crowd is there, they're embracing their hero.
33:02
Speaker 4: And it just had this kind of small town, like fan,
33:07
Speaker 4: you know, like, like this is why you pay for
33:09
Speaker 4: the seats. This is why you go to the game
33:11
Speaker 4: and go through, you know, sub zero temperatures to, to,
33:14
Speaker 4: to be able to like touch moments like this. let
33:17
Speaker 4: alone actually touching the guy who pulls off the play
33:20
Speaker 4: that was so big. And so I think, you know, somebody,
33:24
Speaker 4: as with everything, it probably was a writer. I don't
33:28
Speaker 4: think the players came up with that term. I think
33:30
Speaker 4: a writer probably did the Lambeau leap or whatever it was,
33:33
Speaker 4: you know, like it just, it just fit. And, and,
33:37
Speaker 4: and Butler being, you know, a charismatic and terrific player
33:42
Speaker 4: had many plays like that, whether he had done it before.
33:45
Speaker 1: I don't know.
33:46
Speaker 4: Whether any of them had done it before, I don't know.
33:48
Speaker 4: I'm guessing they probably had. But something in him got
33:53
Speaker 4: him on that leap and the turn and then facing
33:56
Speaker 4: and then being mobbed and embraced. It was terrific. Now
34:01
Speaker 4: they all do it, right? Now they do it in preseason.
34:04
Speaker 4: Sometimes they have these little flag football games going on
34:07
Speaker 4: at halftime and the kids, if they score, first thing
34:10
Speaker 4: they do, man, is they run right to the wall
34:12
Speaker 4: and get help from their coach. They'll hoist them up.
34:14
Speaker 4: So it's become this great tradition. which, you know, of
34:17
Speaker 4: course it's Lambeau, right, with all the tradition in that stadium.
34:20
Speaker 4: That field has not changed direction. The bowl is original
34:25
Speaker 4: from the mid-50s when they built the stadium. Nothing has changed.
34:28
Speaker 4: That goal line where Starr crossed is still the goal
34:31
Speaker 4: line today. Nothing has changed. Where they walk out of
34:35
Speaker 4: the tunnel has a, like at the Indy 500 where
34:39
Speaker 4: they got original brick across the finish line, they've got
34:43
Speaker 4: the original brick from back when it was built in
34:47
Speaker 4: the late 50s, and that brick is still there. And
34:50
Speaker 4: those players cross that threshold every time they enter or
34:54
Speaker 4: leave Lambeau Field. I mean, it's all there. So the
34:57
Speaker 4: Lambeau leap, the crossing of the threshold, being in a stadium,
35:01
Speaker 4: getting the chance to look at those names, that even
35:04
Speaker 4: for this generation, they know Bart Starr, they know Brett Favre,
35:08
Speaker 4: You know, they know the name Vince Lombardi. Go to
35:11
Speaker 4: a lot of these stadiums and look up there, and
35:13
Speaker 4: I'm not going to name any of them. I'll look
35:15
Speaker 4: around the Ring of Honor and go, who is that guy?
35:18
Speaker 4: And if they didn't list the date, I wouldn't know.
35:21
Speaker 4: In Green Bay, you put up that name, you go,
35:24
Speaker 4: my God, Ray Nitschke. Like, I mean, there they are.
35:27
Speaker 4: I mean, it's right there.
35:30
Speaker 1: You said earlier that you arrived kind of right after
35:33
Speaker 1: the Lombardi era is when your family got there. But.
35:37
Speaker 1: maybe he isn't physically present like the brick that are there,
35:41
Speaker 1: but he is embedded, virtually embedded in the franchise. And
35:46
Speaker 1: I just wonder if you could wrap up here, and
35:49
Speaker 1: we really appreciate you taking us through so much of
35:51
Speaker 1: the Packer history. Amazing. That presence of Lombardi, even without
35:56
Speaker 1: him physically being there, what Lombardi's presence is like in
36:00
Speaker 1: Green Bay to this day.
36:02
Speaker 4: Well, when you drive to Lambeau Field, named after Curly Lambeau,
36:05
Speaker 4: who was a new Rockne starting backfield as a freshman
36:09
Speaker 4: at Notre Dame, drops out because of tonsillitis, comes back
36:12
Speaker 4: to Green Bay, fall rolls around. I want to play football.
36:15
Speaker 4: So he gets this team together. And that was 1919.
36:18
Speaker 4: And that's when they began. So you've got that as
36:23
Speaker 4: one of the names that will never go away, Lambeau Field.
36:26
Speaker 4: And then you've got, you know, Vince Lombardi. And when
36:29
Speaker 4: you drive up to Lambeau Field, you enter on 1265
36:32
Speaker 4: Lombardi Avenue. And out in front of my dad, my
36:38
Speaker 4: dad insisted on this because this was in his, you know,
36:41
Speaker 4: he loved to drink. You know, when he was a kid,
36:43
Speaker 4: he'd listen, read Grantland Rice and read all these, you know,
36:46
Speaker 4: great reporters and listen to these games on radio when
36:50
Speaker 4: he was growing up in Des Moines, Iowa and doing
36:53
Speaker 4: mock games on the on the floor on a Saturday, Army,
36:56
Speaker 4: Navy games like like he was infatuated with with football
37:02
Speaker 4: and just the the magnificence that it had and just
37:05
Speaker 4: the aura that it created. But he wanted to have
37:12
Speaker 4: that same kind of field in the revamped, remodeled, re-energized
37:17
Speaker 4: Lambeau Field. And so he has these gigantic sculptors of
37:23
Speaker 4: both Lombardi and Lambeau right in front of the entrance.
37:29
Speaker 4: And they're larger than life. And literally, they're like... 20
37:33
Speaker 4: feet tall, each of them. And one Lambo is pointing
37:37
Speaker 4: the other one Lombardi's over here pointing. And the ironic
37:41
Speaker 4: thing is both sculptures were done by a Chicago sculpture guy.
37:45
Speaker 4: So like another link to Chicago. So, so, but anywhere
37:50
Speaker 4: they're right there. So the Lombardi thing, and you know, we,
37:53
Speaker 4: we don't, we, we, you cannot gain perfection, but you
37:57
Speaker 4: can strive to be perfect. And those words are still there.
38:02
Speaker 4: When those players walk from the locker room through the tunnel,
38:06
Speaker 4: there are Lombardi sayings on the wall. No, they embrace
38:11
Speaker 4: all of it. And there's no one shying away from
38:14
Speaker 4: what Lambeau, Lombardi, what they've meant to that franchise, how
38:19
Speaker 4: they've sculpted, what they've done, the history that each has
38:27
Speaker 4: in the game of professional football. From the earliest beginnings
38:32
Speaker 4: to current day, it's one of the few stadiums that
38:35
Speaker 4: does not have a name with a commercial sponsor. It's
38:39
Speaker 4: Lambeau Field. You know exactly where you are. I think
38:42
Speaker 4: they hold that about as dear as anything that they've got.
38:44
Speaker 4: You promise? I hope so. You know what?
38:49
Speaker 1: I know.
38:50
Speaker 3: Never say never.
38:51
Speaker 1: I know.
38:52
Speaker 4: I know. But the new president is Ed Policy, who's
38:55
Speaker 4: from a football family, a pro football family. That name
38:58
Speaker 4: is very historic. And he, before my dad passed, he
39:05
Speaker 4: and Ed Policy, Ed Policy and my father met for
39:09
Speaker 4: four hours at Lambeau Field.
39:11
Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
39:11
Speaker 4: And they walked through all these things. And Ed Policy
39:16
Speaker 4: is a first-class invigorating presence as the president and will
39:24
Speaker 4: clearly make the things happen that need to happen. um
39:28
Speaker 4: but that is something so special much like the team
39:32
Speaker 4: it's owned by the fans i mean literally it's owned
39:35
Speaker 4: by the fans and the only business they're in is
39:38
Speaker 4: in football so it is self-sustaining and and they know
39:41
Speaker 4: they've got to continue to put a winning when they
39:43
Speaker 4: get money when they get a profit goes right back
39:45
Speaker 4: into football it goes into the locker room into the
39:47
Speaker 4: training facilities into whatever but it's all football directed. Unlike
39:51
Speaker 4: a lot of owners who will pocket as they should,
39:54
Speaker 4: you know, some of that money, they're all making it.
39:56
Speaker 4: So anyway, but no, the Lombardi name is as big
40:02
Speaker 4: as any, there's nothing, the stadium isn't named after him.
40:05
Speaker 4: And I think we all realize we're Curly Lambeau, you know,
40:08
Speaker 4: among these original people, the Halases, the Lambeau, like what
40:12
Speaker 4: they mean to where football is now. But Lombardi's name,
40:16
Speaker 4: is everywhere and his presence, his fingerprints are all over
40:20
Speaker 4: that building. And I've walked through every tunnel and every
40:23
Speaker 4: room and every hallway. And it's more so than Lambeau,
40:28
Speaker 4: it's Lombardi because of what he meant. And even the
40:33
Speaker 4: cliches he may have used, the statements he made, the
40:37
Speaker 4: tried and true expressions that were every part of his
40:39
Speaker 4: coaching and leadership are all over that organization. And they're
40:44
Speaker 4: as true today. as they were back in the late
40:47
Speaker 4: fifties when he was hired and in the sixties during
40:49
Speaker 4: their run to glory.
40:53
Speaker 1: Amazing.
40:54
Speaker 2: Kevin, this was, this was more than we expected. And
40:58
Speaker 2: yet I, and, and I'm not surprised. I mean, you know, you're, you're, you're,
41:03
Speaker 2: you're really appreciate this and you've, you've lived it. You still,
41:07
Speaker 2: you're there all the time, right? You're there all the time, right?
41:10
Speaker 2: You still call the preseason games, right?
41:13
Speaker 4: I do.
41:13
Speaker 1: I do.
41:14
Speaker 4: I've welcomed you and your son in our booth before.
41:16
Speaker 4: So I know your love of the organization, your respect
41:19
Speaker 4: for what it is, and you're bringing your song in
41:22
Speaker 4: the right path. Congratulations on that. You know, these Packer fans,
41:27
Speaker 4: when they get season tickets, they will them down to
41:30
Speaker 4: their sons and daughters, who then will them down to
41:32
Speaker 4: their sons and daughters. And when you've got them, you
41:35
Speaker 4: hold on to them tight. They're hard to get, even
41:37
Speaker 4: though the stadium is much bigger. There is something that
41:41
Speaker 4: even if the team is not doing well, there's something
41:44
Speaker 4: that resonates in your heart more than anything else about
41:48
Speaker 4: being a season ticket holder for the Green Bay Packers.
41:52
Speaker 4: You feel like you're supporting them. The fans are the owners.
41:56
Speaker 4: There is a board of directors, but there is a
42:00
Speaker 4: gigantic group of people that thousands, hundreds of thousands of
42:03
Speaker 4: people that have bought stock, pieces of parchment that show
42:07
Speaker 4: that they are a part owner of in name only,
42:10
Speaker 4: but the symbolism is there. They are part of the ownership.
42:16
Speaker 1: Kevin, thanks so much for spending time with us today
42:18
Speaker 1: and sharing your intimate and detailed knowledge of the history
42:22
Speaker 1: of this franchise. We really appreciate it.
42:23
Speaker 4: With you two, are you kidding me? With you two,
42:26
Speaker 4: it was my privilege. With my privilege. Thank you both.
42:29
Speaker 3: Be safe, and we'll hear you on the television.
42:33
Speaker 4: Look forward to it. Thank you, guys.
42:35
Speaker 2: You know, J.A., I knew that Kevin was going to
42:37
Speaker 2: be a great guest, but it was somehow better. than
42:39
Speaker 2: I expected because talk about somebody, right? When you're growing
42:44
Speaker 2: up in the franchise.
42:47
Speaker 3: Boy, do you absorb it all? I mean, I mean, he,
42:50
Speaker 3: I felt like he.
42:51
Speaker 1: Just spent researching and reading up on, he just, you know, recalled.
42:55
Speaker 3: It was right there.
42:57
Speaker 2: Well, we could have, why'd we bother with our, with our,
43:00
Speaker 2: you know, two and a half hours.
43:01
Speaker 3: We could have just, Hey, Kevin, wind them up.
43:04
Speaker 2: And in 10 minutes, right here, here we're, We're thinking
43:06
Speaker 2: we're saving people time from reading the six or seven
43:09
Speaker 2: books that we use. And instead, he is the walking
43:14
Speaker 2: encyclopedia on that.
43:16
Speaker 1: What was also interesting, Chuck, was how he really put
43:20
Speaker 1: Reggie White's name alongside Lombardi and Favre and Rogers right
43:26
Speaker 1: to him.
43:26
Speaker 3: We were talking about the Mount Rushmore.
43:28
Speaker 2: It's pretty clear that it is Lambeau, Lombardi- Reggie white,
43:34
Speaker 2: like that's the three. And then you can argue, maybe
43:37
Speaker 2: you just do the quarterback position.
43:39
Speaker 3: Like, right. Like you just do.
43:41
Speaker 1: Right. Right. Right.
43:43
Speaker 2: You know, you do something like that because it is,
43:46
Speaker 2: there are really, they were important, right? Lambeau creates the, the, the,
43:52
Speaker 2: the structure Lombardi creates the dynasty and white essentially modernizes.
43:59
Speaker 1: Right. And it makes them a player in the free
44:01
Speaker 1: and says we hit the free agency era of Packers
44:04
Speaker 1: or the NFL where you think the Packers might get
44:07
Speaker 1: left behind and white, you know, through one singular act,
44:11
Speaker 1: you know, keep it relevant, you know, really all the
44:13
Speaker 1: way through today.
44:14
Speaker 2: That story about the referendum and the, and the revote
44:19
Speaker 2: had it lost early.
44:21
Speaker 1: It passed right in the day. Right.
44:24
Speaker 3: I mean, that was, you know, it's funny.
44:26
Speaker 2: I'm going to, I love a good sliding doors or
44:28
Speaker 2: a what if scenario and forks in the road or his,
44:31
Speaker 2: you know, butterflies in history, butterfly effects, but, Wow. I mean,
44:36
Speaker 2: it goes back to, it's still amazing that Green Bay
44:40
Speaker 2: has been able to not just survive, but thrive. And
44:44
Speaker 2: how many near-death experiences the franchise avoided.
44:50
Speaker 1: Unbelievable.
44:51
Speaker 3: All right, should we go some fan mail?
44:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's see what the audience has to say.
44:56
Speaker 3: All right. Well, first question belongs to you, J.A., so
45:00
Speaker 3: go for it.
45:01
Speaker 1: From Sal in Milwaukee who asks, if you were building
45:04
Speaker 1: a team from scratch and you had to choose between
45:06
Speaker 1: Bart Starr, Brett Favre, or Aaron Rodgers as your quarterback,
45:10
Speaker 1: which one would you choose and why?
45:15
Speaker 3: Well, you want me to answer first?
45:16
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'll give you my answer.
45:17
Speaker 3: I'd go Rodgers.
45:19
Speaker 2: I think he, especially younger Rodgers, I think was still.
45:25
Speaker 3: Here's the thing.
45:27
Speaker 2: The most fascinating thing to me is to hear Jordan
45:31
Speaker 2: love snap counts, Aaron Rogers, snap counts and Brett Favre
45:36
Speaker 2: snap counts.
45:37
Speaker 1: Right.
45:38
Speaker 2: And the Aaron Rogers snap counts. And he sort of,
45:42
Speaker 2: you could argue he started, he emulated far.
45:45
Speaker 1: Right. Right.
45:46
Speaker 3: And you see, hear it now.
45:48
Speaker 2: Like I was watching that Steelers, a Steelers game earlier
45:53
Speaker 2: this month when they were playing the Bengals and it
45:56
Speaker 2: was just, it was like, Oh, I know that cadence.
45:59
Speaker 2: You know, I know that count because of how many
46:01
Speaker 2: Packers game I'd watched over the years with Rogers. And
46:05
Speaker 2: I guess I would say that I think he's the,
46:08
Speaker 2: he's the, you know, of he's just, I think you're
46:12
Speaker 2: going to get quicker success, right?
46:15
Speaker 3: If you look at the three, that would be the.
46:18
Speaker 2: One, like the quickest success from starter to Superbowl was Rogers.
46:21
Speaker 2: So I just, I think I would pick Rogers. I mean,
46:24
Speaker 2: it's not, You're obviously not going to go wrong. They're
46:27
Speaker 2: all Super Bowl champs. But I think I'd go Rodgers.
46:30
Speaker 1: I agree with you. He's the most talented of those three,
46:32
Speaker 1: and I feel like he has the best ability to
46:34
Speaker 1: elevate maybe a team that has no business winning a
46:39
Speaker 1: division and going to the playoffs. I think he can
46:42
Speaker 1: take a team that's not that well-constructed around him. We
46:45
Speaker 1: know he had some clashes with how some of those
46:47
Speaker 1: teams were put together and the personnel decisions that were made.
46:51
Speaker 3: But that was older Rodgers.
46:52
Speaker 4: Singularly.
46:52
Speaker 1: Right? Right.
46:54
Speaker 3: But.
46:55
Speaker 1: Like the complaining or the complaining.
46:58
Speaker 2: Like, I feel like, I feel like the younger Rogers
47:01
Speaker 2: had this, frankly, a terrific chip on his shoulder, right?
47:05
Speaker 2: The type of chip that a coach likes a player
47:07
Speaker 2: to have.
47:08
Speaker 1: Don't you think? Yeah. I, I, but again, he had
47:12
Speaker 1: the talent to back it up. So I think star
47:14
Speaker 1: is the most, was the most, you know, solid, least
47:19
Speaker 1: problematic of the three, but also the least talented. And, and,
47:24
Speaker 1: was dependent on more greatness around him. Yeah.
47:28
Speaker 3: All right.
47:30
Speaker 2: This next question is from Jake in Savannah, Georgia, and
47:33
Speaker 2: he goes, in your interview with Paul Feinbaum on the
47:34
Speaker 2: history of Alabama, you discussed how teams with access to
47:38
Speaker 2: the most NIL money are already starting to dominate college
47:41
Speaker 2: football and how that trend will accelerate in the future.
47:43
Speaker 2: Could this mean that schools like Duke, Stanford, Cal, and
47:46
Speaker 2: Northwestern that are traditionally football also rans but have wealthy
47:50
Speaker 2: alums could emerge as contenders? And if you take this
47:55
Speaker 2: to its logical extreme, could we be looking at a
47:58
Speaker 2: future national championship game between Harvard and Yale, two of
48:02
Speaker 2: the schools with the most billionaire graduates?
48:06
Speaker 1: And also the school with the most national championships, as
48:09
Speaker 1: we said in our Alabama episode.
48:10
Speaker 3: Look, I look at Vanderbilt right now at what they've
48:15
Speaker 3: done with football. You see it. And you could argue
48:18
Speaker 3: that we know they.
48:20
Speaker 2: Have rich alums. It's a wealthy school and all of that.
48:25
Speaker 2: That's my curiosity about Cal and Stanford. And I'm fascinated
48:29
Speaker 2: to see if that happens. The question is, right, we're
48:34
Speaker 2: essentially private equity money, tech money. Has it yet shown
48:40
Speaker 2: up in the NIL world, right? I mean, yes, you
48:43
Speaker 2: could say that.
48:44
Speaker 1: Is it Larry Ellison here?
48:45
Speaker 2: Larry Ellison, right, with the Bryce Underwood thing. But that's been,
48:50
Speaker 2: you know, Mark Cuban, I think, wrote a nice check
48:53
Speaker 2: to Indiana. football but that's my thesis that's my theory
48:58
Speaker 2: i think i you could argue duke's already done this
49:02
Speaker 2: a little bit and certainly in basketball.
49:05
Speaker 1: Well one i don't know if there's going to be
49:08
Speaker 1: this influx of money from the tech crowd because are
49:10
Speaker 1: they that into sport what it's going to take is
49:13
Speaker 1: these tech or private equity it's got to be a
49:16
Speaker 1: fan yeah right you know are they a big fan
49:19
Speaker 1: what was was going to the games on Saturday is
49:22
Speaker 1: a big part of their collegiate experience. Right. And also increasingly,
49:26
Speaker 1: these guys aren't going to college and women aren't going
49:29
Speaker 1: to college. Right. Or dropping out of college. Like so
49:31
Speaker 1: many of the great tech origin stories involve dropping out
49:34
Speaker 1: of college. So you don't have that same affiliation. Mark
49:37
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg could be writing checks or Bill Gates could be
49:40
Speaker 1: writing checks.
49:40
Speaker 2: Zuckerberg, could he write the Harvard NIL?
49:44
Speaker 1: Again, they never walked across the stage and sports just
49:49
Speaker 1: weren't that big then. Also, the Ivy Leagues, I don't
49:51
Speaker 1: think we'll see it happen at the Ivy Leagues because
49:53
Speaker 1: they don't even give athletic scholarships. They're not about to
49:58
Speaker 1: jump into the NIL game headfirst. Northwestern and The question
50:06
Speaker 1: brought up Northwestern. I didn't. This does not count as
50:09
Speaker 1: one of my... No, it doesn't. My slate is clean here.
50:15
Speaker 3: But this is a question I have. I mean, are
50:18
Speaker 3: you seeing it?
50:19
Speaker 1: So we have the rich alums. The problem is, again,
50:24
Speaker 1: sports weren't a big part of the undergraduate experience or
50:27
Speaker 1: even the graduate school experience for so many alumni. It's
50:30
Speaker 1: not oriented around that. And also the alums that tend
50:34
Speaker 1: to want to write checks want to have buildings named
50:36
Speaker 1: after them. We just had a mostly privately funded by
50:39
Speaker 1: a major donor, Pat Ryan, this construction of the new stadium, right?
50:44
Speaker 1: A $ 900 million new stadium on campus or near campus.
50:49
Speaker 1: But people want, they want their money to go to
50:52
Speaker 1: something that's going to have their name on it, right?
50:54
Speaker 1: They don't want their money to be this temporary thing
50:57
Speaker 1: for a player year in and year out. That just
50:59
Speaker 1: doesn't fit the aesthetic of a lot of these schools.
51:01
Speaker 1: And also it doesn't fit the mindset of the donors.
51:04
Speaker 1: The Ryan family has donated hundreds of millions of dollars. They,
51:08
Speaker 1: you know, just for athletics alone, they built the practice facility.
51:11
Speaker 1: You know, they helped remodel the basketball arena. And now
51:15
Speaker 1: we have this new Taj Mahal of a football stadium. Right.
51:19
Speaker 1: But that's that's lasting. That's not writing a check for
51:23
Speaker 1: somebody to play who might transfer and go somewhere else
51:26
Speaker 1: next year.
51:28
Speaker 2: Well, I guess if I look at that list of Duke, Stanford,
51:30
Speaker 2: Cal and Northwestern, I love your thought there. It's about
51:36
Speaker 2: the experience itself, right? So of those four schools in football,
51:41
Speaker 2: Stanford probably has the best football history, right? So does,
51:46
Speaker 2: so in, you know, and I guess that's, Andrew Luck
51:49
Speaker 2: is going to test this premise, right? And if he
51:52
Speaker 2: can get the Google guys interested in Stanford football, watch out.
51:58
Speaker 1: Absolutely. All right. Bert from Scottsdale, Arizona asks, I know
52:03
Speaker 1: this is heresy, but I think Vince Lombardi gets too
52:05
Speaker 1: much credit for those great Packers teams in the 1960s.
52:08
Speaker 1: We should bring back Kevin Harlan. Yeah. Take on this question.
52:13
Speaker 1: He inherited roster with Jim Ringo, Forrest Gregg, Bart Starr,
52:15
Speaker 1: Paul Hornick, Jim Taylor, Ray Nitschke, on and on and on.
52:20
Speaker 1: Jerry Kramer, all been drafted by the front office before
52:22
Speaker 1: he arrived. Would you really need to be a great
52:25
Speaker 1: coach to win with those guys on your team? Well,
52:28
Speaker 1: I think we do have the answer because they had
52:31
Speaker 1: another coach before Lombardi that had that roster and didn't
52:33
Speaker 1: go anywhere with it. But it does bring to the
52:36
Speaker 1: point and somebody that actually wanted to mention more in
52:40
Speaker 1: our previous Packers episodes that we didn't get to, and
52:42
Speaker 1: that's Jack Benisi. And there was a push that some
52:45
Speaker 1: think that he should have a spot in the Hall
52:48
Speaker 1: of Fame. He was really the architect of those teams.
52:50
Speaker 1: So he did bring in the talent and constructed the
52:52
Speaker 1: roster that Lombardi was then able to take on to
52:55
Speaker 1: great heights. So it's not that Lombardi should get less credit.
53:00
Speaker 1: I think instead of Vinicius, he should get more credit.
53:02
Speaker 3: I think that's a fair answer.
53:03
Speaker 2: But can I just– since we're taping this October in 2026,
53:08
Speaker 2: I can't tell you. I think every Packer fan would
53:14
Speaker 2: give their right arm for an offensive line that was
53:16
Speaker 2: even half as good as Ringo, Greg, and Kramer. I mean,
53:22
Speaker 2: it is such– I just hope by the time you
53:26
Speaker 2: listen to this, Jordan Love isn't on a stretcher.
53:28
Speaker 3: I'm just petrified.
53:30
Speaker 2: It felt like in one of those early games this year,
53:33
Speaker 2: the second he snapped the ball, defensive linemen were in
53:35
Speaker 2: the backfield faster than he could turn around and hand
53:38
Speaker 2: the ball off to a running back. What I really
53:43
Speaker 2: want is everybody in Packers' world to realize, guess how
53:46
Speaker 2: you build a football team?
53:47
Speaker 3: You start with the line.
53:51
Speaker 1: Again, those pieces were in place, but but through his
53:55
Speaker 1: schemes and through his belief and remember Lombardi was a
53:58
Speaker 1: former offensive lineman himself. So, you know, that Packer sweep,
54:02
Speaker 1: which really emphasized the line.
54:04
Speaker 3: It, you know, it's interesting.
54:07
Speaker 2: I'm curious if you have found this covering sports, whatever
54:12
Speaker 2: position the head coach had as a player is the
54:17
Speaker 2: position they coach, they care and coach about the most.
54:21
Speaker 2: Is that essentially the, is that universal across sports?
54:25
Speaker 1: Yes. Sometimes it can be, um, you know, maybe to
54:28
Speaker 1: the detriment, like, like this, like if you're a point guard,
54:31
Speaker 1: do you want to play for a coach who was
54:33
Speaker 1: a point guard? Cause he's going to scrutinize.
54:35
Speaker 2: Jason kid is considered a pretty good coach. Do point
54:38
Speaker 2: guards like to like to play for him?
54:42
Speaker 1: It can be tough. It can be tough on them. Right. Um,
54:45
Speaker 1: cause I think how many point guards are going to
54:48
Speaker 1: be as good as Jason kid, all the same point guard. Right. So, uh,
54:53
Speaker 1: he he's always going to be in the back of
54:54
Speaker 1: his head thing. I could do it better than this
54:56
Speaker 1: guy is. If I was just a little bit younger,
54:58
Speaker 1: I could put a uniform on and go out there
55:00
Speaker 1: and do it better. So it's very, you know, it's
55:02
Speaker 1: just like they say, great coaches rarely make for, or
55:05
Speaker 1: great players rarely make for great coaches. You've got some
55:08
Speaker 1: exceptions of Larry bird here and there. Right.
55:11
Speaker 3: Or Jason kid.
55:12
Speaker 1: I mean, who's been, I think it's exaggerated though, when
55:15
Speaker 1: you're talking about that player position, you know, and, and,
55:19
Speaker 1: do certain positions make for better coaches, right? Do catchers
55:23
Speaker 1: make for better managers? Well, there is a total catcher, right?
55:27
Speaker 1: You see that. Right.
55:29
Speaker 3: You know, you don't see a lot.
55:30
Speaker 2: Of his former quarterbacks end up as head coaches. You
55:32
Speaker 2: might have a backup quarterback that does it, but you
55:35
Speaker 2: don't ever, you know, not many. Jim Harbaugh is among.
55:40
Speaker 3: The exceptions, is he not?
55:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, but, you know, he wasn't a Hall of Fame quarterback,
55:44
Speaker 1: really good quarterback. in the NFL captain comeback for a while,
55:48
Speaker 1: but you're right. Probably because quarterbacks make so much money.
55:52
Speaker 1: Probably they go into coaching, you know, so they're going
55:55
Speaker 1: to be the highest paid players in the entire sport.
55:58
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm remembering this or if it's
56:00
Speaker 2: one of those planted memories from, from somebody else, but
56:03
Speaker 2: I could swear there's a quote from Don Shula who said, yeah,
56:06
Speaker 2: the reason I was a good coach is because I
56:08
Speaker 2: couldn't make it onto the field.
56:09
Speaker 3: Like he was, he was, you know, on the sidelines
56:12
Speaker 3: as the, as the backup. So you're, you observe more.
56:16
Speaker 1: You see, you also have another outlet for that competitive desire, right?
56:19
Speaker 1: If you can't, you know, express it on the field
56:21
Speaker 1: and fulfill it on the field. So if you're a
56:23
Speaker 1: great player, you scratch that competitive itch on the field
56:26
Speaker 1: and maybe you satiate it to the point you don't
56:28
Speaker 1: need another Korean coach. But if you're a player who
56:31
Speaker 1: never achieved great things playing, then you still have that
56:35
Speaker 1: burning desire. And so here's a way to prove it otherwise. And,
56:38
Speaker 1: and also it takes a long time, right? I mean, again,
56:40
Speaker 1: Lombardi doesn't get to green Bay until he's what? 47,
56:42
Speaker 1: mid 40s.
56:43
Speaker 2: So, uh, Yeah. Well, I think it, I'm trying to
56:52
Speaker 2: think of who's the best player. Who's also an amazing coach.
56:55
Speaker 2: Is it Don Staley? Is that, is that, would she
56:58
Speaker 2: be the standard?
56:59
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
57:01
Speaker 2: You know, who was an MVP.
57:08
Speaker 1: On the court coach of the year and also an
57:11
Speaker 1: executive of the year when he, when he was in
57:12
Speaker 1: the front office.
57:13
Speaker 3: So that's impressive.
57:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. Jerry West.
57:17
Speaker 3: Not much of a coach.
57:19
Speaker 4: Right.
57:19
Speaker 1: Was he? Yeah. Raleigh, Phil Jackson, two of the all-time
57:22
Speaker 1: great coaches, not so great.
57:24
Speaker 3: They were role players. Yeah.
57:25
Speaker 4: Right.
57:26
Speaker 3: All right, let's go with the last question here. This
57:28
Speaker 3: is a fun one.
57:29
Speaker 2: Derek Ann from Florence, South Carolina asks, I was fascinated
57:32
Speaker 2: to hear you say that Paul Hornig did double duty
57:34
Speaker 2: as the place kicker for the Packers in the 60s
57:36
Speaker 2: and that it was normal for NFL teams to use
57:38
Speaker 2: a position player as a kicker. I was wondering when
57:40
Speaker 2: and why teams started using specialists for place kicking and punting. Um,
57:47
Speaker 2: we did a little, uh, we did a little research
57:50
Speaker 2: here a little bit. Um, it really is a phenomenon
57:56
Speaker 2: that didn't really take place until the, the, the sixties
58:00
Speaker 2: really in the seventies, you know, I, I am still
58:03
Speaker 2: surprised and I, I'm actually still surprised to this day
58:08
Speaker 2: that we don't have more double duty punters. I understand
58:12
Speaker 2: now with the importance of being able to make a
58:15
Speaker 2: field goal. I think now with these kickers able to
58:17
Speaker 2: hit 60 yarders, you know, consistently and 50 yarders consistently
58:23
Speaker 2: that the kicker is a necessity, a great, you need
58:27
Speaker 2: to find one. And if you have it, you hang
58:29
Speaker 2: on for dear life, right? They are worth everything. I
58:33
Speaker 2: am surprised that roster spots are taken up by punters.
58:39
Speaker 1: You think the kicker should handle the punting as well?
58:43
Speaker 3: I'm not saying it doesn't have to be the kicker.
58:45
Speaker 2: I'm just saying that finding the double duty, you know,
58:48
Speaker 2: is there a, you know, I don't know.
58:50
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember in the eighties, I remember in
58:52
Speaker 1: the eighties, Danny White, the quarterback, and then he would
58:56
Speaker 1: stay in and punt. And you, you're just amazed.
58:58
Speaker 3: Like David Whitehurst, the Packer quarterback was also the punter.
59:02
Speaker 3: He did the, he did double duty.
59:04
Speaker 1: Chuck, don't you think it'd be worth it for opposing
59:06
Speaker 1: teams to just take one rough-and-kicker penalty so you surrender
59:09
Speaker 1: a first down? But you can, you know, in one
59:12
Speaker 1: fell swoop, you can take out the starting quarterback and
59:14
Speaker 1: the punter and really wound the team. I mean, you've
59:16
Speaker 1: got your quarterback is so, you know, alone and naked, essentially,
59:21
Speaker 1: back there punting. You're so vulnerable, right? And yet, he
59:25
Speaker 1: did that for several years. I remember his football cards
59:28
Speaker 1: would say, like, QB slash... It had the P, right.
59:31
Speaker 3: It had QB slash P. We do have a fun
59:33
Speaker 3: history here.
59:33
Speaker 2: It's sort of that the advent of the soccer style
59:36
Speaker 2: kicker instead of the straightaway was thanks to Pete Gogolak,
59:44
Speaker 2: a Budapest-born Cornell graduate. So there's your Ivy League connection.
59:49
Speaker 1: All right. Well, Chuck and I would love to answer
59:52
Speaker 1: your questions during future episodes. Please send your questions through
59:55
Speaker 1: our social media channels and on our YouTube channel. Please
59:58
Speaker 1: also follow us on social media at dynasticpod and follow, like,
1:00:02
Speaker 1: and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts and
1:00:05
Speaker 1: on YouTube. And along with our executive producer and partner,
1:00:08
Speaker 1: Steve Hull, we want to thank Andrew Sampson, the head
1:00:10
Speaker 1: of programming at our production partners, Showboat Media, Kevin Kennedy,
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Speaker 1: our producer, Meredith Violi, our researcher.
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Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.
1:00:18
Speaker 2: The next episode of Dynastic will chronicle the history of
1:00:21
Speaker 2: the Ohio State Buckeyes football program. The first of those
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Speaker 2: three episodes will be available on October 20th.
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Speaker 3: We'll see you there.