Latest / The Next Reel Film Podcast / Ju-on: The Grudge
Transcript
- Pete Wright I'm Pete Wright. Andy Nelson And I'm Andy Nelson. Pete Wright Welcome to The Next Reel. When the movie ends, Andy Nelson Our conversation begins. Pete Wright Ju-on: The Grudge is over. Thanks for the effort. Okay, here we are. It's Ju-on: The Grudge. I did some heavy duty Ju-on this weekend. Heavy duty. Andy Nelson I saw. Pete Wright I did them all. All of the ones in this tier. The Ju-on: The Grudge, The American Remake. Andy Nelson basically you did everything that's titled Ju-on: The Grudge Pete Wright I pretty much did. And the remake of that with John Cho. Andy Nelson I think that one's more of a reboot right Pete Wright You would think so. But there's a lot of sort of shot-for-shot stuff going on in it. Like, it definitely is the thread of this one. So I did all The Grudges. Oof, man. I am... Andy Nelson would you call that a grudge match Pete Wright How did I miss that? That was really good. That was really good. I feel like less of a human being for missing that. Andy Nelson I don't even know how you could have missed that one. Pete Wright Where? Andy Nelson I might just say my ad is themed around that, so we'll get to that. Pete Wright Oh, no. Okay. So we are talking about Ju-on: The Grudge. Takashi Shimizu, year 2002. It's another tight 92 minutes Japanese horror supernatural curse. This is the first theatrical release of this particular set of characters. We transcend Japanese V-horror. Andy Nelson yeah this is the first theatrical one because the the life of the the v horror versions The Curse and The Curse 2 i think largely it was The Curse 2 more than even The Curse was discovered on video and people tuned in and really loved how creepy it was and so suddenly video stores were getting requests to carry it and so the studios came a call in and said, hey, let's put some money into this and make a big budget version of it. And that's really kind of what we get here is kind of, I suppose you could say, a retelling in a way of the story and kind of resetting things for us in the world of this cursed house and the brutal murders that happened within it. And it's really kind of a chance for Shimizu to start again, I guess, especially for people who had never seen it before. And honestly, other than kind of like the people who were discovering the curse films on VHS, this was, including me, the first grudge film that people saw. And I think to that end, you can walk into this one. Again, it's kind of a reset. So you don't need to have seen the first two films to really watch this film. And I think for many people, the reason that they probably connect with this one so much is because it was the first of these Ju-on films that they ever watched. Pete Wright 100% agree with that. I think that that's, I totally get it. The thing that I think is interesting about this movie in particular, in comparison, just because we're coming off of the Curse movies, is that I actually found the ghost stuff, the kid and the woman and the cat even more scary in the video versions. I thought they were more haunting. I thought they were somehow neutered here in a way that was not threatening. And I don't know if that's just because of the texture of the actual sort of presentation, that maybe it was just too clean and they weren't able to do enough to dirty it up. But I found the originals more haunting. Andy Nelson Well, when you say dirty it up, what do you mean specifically? The originals aren't grungy. Pete Wright No, but you know, there's a certain sort of video texture to it when you're watching it. And this, you know, it opens up and it's clean and pristine and it looks like a movie. And maybe it was a treatment of makeup or eye treatment, but I just never found the ghosts threatening. I can't, I mean, I can't quite put my finger on it. But I look back, even I look at stills, and there's something about stills, like the cover of this movie feels like a still from the original of Toshio. And it's scarier than anything in the movie of Toshio. The cover. Andy Nelson interesting and i mean for for this conversation i think i'm going to have to work on kind of separating myself from having seen this one first like i actually saw this one first you didn't you Pete Wright yeah Andy Nelson saw the American remake of this. And that was the only, that was the only grudge film you'd ever Pete Wright yeah Andy Nelson seen. So this was my first entry into this franchise. And then the American, I think maybe the first, definitely the first, maybe the second. And that was all I had seen of the franchise. And so now that I've seen the curse and the curse too, there is an element that I can, I can acknowledge that sometimes there's something that an indie filmmaker has when they're forced to work with a low budget and a tight schedule and be extremely crafty in how they put shots together and condense their storytelling into fewer shots because of the lack of time, etc. They're just flying by the seat of their pants, largely. and you see that often and then when they they suddenly have this massive budget it's hard to determine like you have so much extra time and you have so much extra money to play with and all these different departments that have so much more money as well and and how do you reshape your thinking when you suddenly are in that position and you know i think it's fair to say that there is an element to that of you know the struggle that filmmakers have when suddenly they're given lots of money to play with i mean i can see that there i guess for me though i didn't really have that same issue with the ghosts and everything and it wasn't like a curse of recency because i had just watched the curse and the curse too so i it's not like i'd watched them all so close together and suddenly I just couldn't buy into it anymore because I'd seen it too often. It's not like I didn't run into that issue. I guess for me, I don't know, I just find them effective and interesting. And I think that Shimizu is doing some interesting things with the story here that he hadn't really explored in the previous ones. And so I don't know if it's a particular thing that connected. Pete Wright Let's dig into that. Let's dig into the story treatment that connected with you. Andy Nelson I just liked the story. You know, I think it's an interesting story. I love the way that he crafts these stories out of chronological order. And so you're getting bits and pieces and clues. Like we start after kind of the opening, the real high contrast, nearly black and white, but little splashes of color, flashes that we get of watching Kayako and family getting killed by her husband. Pete Wright Very efficient. Very cool. I actually I'm on board for that. Andy Nelson And very, yeah, very easy way to do that. Then we're kind of jumping into the stories right away and we're getting, like we see Rika, the, what would you call that? Like a health worker? Pete Wright Well, she's like a care worker. Andy Nelson Yeah, like coming over to the house to do a check, a health check on an old woman who's living there. And we see the house is totally a mess. There's stuff everywhere. When she ends up going upstairs, we see some leaks laying on the ground. Later, when we're watching Hitomi's story or Katsuya's story, one of their stories, we actually see somebody coming home with a bag of groceries and there are leaks in it. And so little clues like that, that you're getting, okay, so this actually took place beforehand. And then, and so you're starting to piece these things together as you're, you know, as you were following the story. And it's not like it's original, like he had done that with the previous film. We'd already seen that play out. But what we get here is, especially as we get to the end, like a much bigger time jump that, that suggests that this is something that could potentially go on for a while. And now we're getting like this massive shift in time showing that Kayako will be around for potentially forever. Right. And so like, that's an element that I thought was really interesting. Pete Wright Yeah, I think it's and I have to also separate the fact that I watched the first two movies before this. Andy Nelson Yeah. Pete Wright Like, I almost wonder if I should have, like, somehow done it your way and watch this first, because this is how arguably most people discovered this series. And would it have been more effective or creepier or, you know, more sort of haunting had I not seen the earlier films? Because in some respects, this film is, you know, his sort of I don't want to say perfect, but his sort of evolution of his original idea delivered in the way he probably saw it in his head before he had to make it as an indie on video. Right. Like there's just when he's out from under the the weight of necessity to to deliver effects and deliver those things. And so I think I do it a disservice coming to it from those first ones so fast because I did find I actually liked the earliest interpretation better than this than this movie. And some of that is because repetition just kills surprise. And there are so many beats in this movie that are directly owing to the first movies that I had just watched that I did not. I feel like Ju-on relies on a very small set of scare tools. Right. And once you've seen them, you can predict when they're going to be utilized. And Kayoko's crawl and Toshio's mew and, you know, the death rattle and a sudden appearance in the frame. They're all super effective the first time you encounter them. But this movie, these movies do them over and over again to the point that they lose their bite. They lose their bite. And I think that's what I'm suffering from. Doing these in series has illuminated the scare template of these movies and tension dropped for me. Andy Nelson That's interesting because There are new things that Shimizu is also playing with in this franchise. We're seeing more than just Kayako and Toshio. We're seeing three dead schoolgirls popping up that are somehow now ghosts that are cursed to work with or follow Kayako. Pete Wright servants of kayako yeah yep Andy Nelson Yeah, we're seeing her husband reappear as kind of a ghostly, threatening presence at one point. The way that Kayako appears around people and within people, there are some new things that we're seeing some different things. Pete Wright there was one where where she crawls out of her belly Andy Nelson Yeah. Pete Wright that was good that was good Andy Nelson We're seeing some interesting changes here, and I think that's interesting. And the way that the scares are built in this franchise is it largely builds to each sequence, each little story that we have builds to kind of a confrontation. Like we see it kind of building, whether it's Toshio or Kayako, building towards something. And then suddenly they appear and then we hard cut and we're out and onto something else. Like we're not really seeing other than maybe like the school girl later in the film, like we see her get like, but she's just pulled into darkness. It's not like, like this isn't like a slasher sort of film, like Nightmare on Elm Street, where we see the person struggling in bed and suddenly like, you know, Freddie's, you know, knives burst out of their sleeping chest or whatever the case may be. Like we're not seeing the actual kills. We're not, they're just kind of like an end to a particular point with kind of a scare. So I'm curious with you because it seems like this is a, it was much more a struggle for you. When you watch a similar horror franchise, like I know in the last year or so you, you plowed through the entirety of the Halloween franchise. Do you also find that you're getting to a point with those where it's just not scary anymore? Because it's essentially the same sort of thing. Somebody is doing something and Michael shows up and kills them. Somebody's doing something and Michael shows up and kills them. Pete Wright I'll use that example because you're right on. Like, it takes a bit. I think the other example I'd bring up is Final Destination because I've much more recently watched those. And once you're through the second movie, those movies also lose their bite until maybe five, right, where some things start to happen different. Six, there's some twists on the ideology that actually make it more interesting. to kind of sit through. If you watch them all at once, like I did with Juwan, they become very repetitive very quickly. Watching them as they're intended when they come out, like I can see, I probably would have had a better experience overall. The same thing with Halloween. But one of the reasons that I will come back and say, maybe these movies aren't for me is because to your point, the cerebral sort of end to a line of inquiry in these movies, where it's just like hard cut Something new doesn't give me the visceral sort of satisfying end. And it's probably is it me just like lusting for violence? Maybe. I don't know. Andy Nelson So American of you. Pete Wright I just it's so American. God, I'm so Western. But I just I want something more definitive. And there is so little that appears definitive in these movies with taking exception, you know, the transformation, obviously, of Kayako, of the family. of, you know, the people who are who come back as ghosts. Like, I get that. But there's a lot of stuff that I feel like culturally is not for me. Like, I don't I'm not in touch with with some of the filmmaking vibes in these movies. And, you know, that's fine. That's fine. I found it harder to get through. Nonlinear structure sort of without like this movie, the constant reset keeps me from developing connection to any one character, even Rika, like, but it jumps around it, their fate sort of lacks impact. I didn't feel like I had a connection with anybody. Bill Pullman, the exception, because, you know, it's Bill Pullman. And I know that, that, no, not Bill Pullman. He's in the other one. I have too many grudges, too many Christmas. But I'm making the same, I can make Andy Nelson I was going to say, I don't know. Yeah. Pete Wright the same argument for the weirdo Americanized version of Japan in the remake, that things Andy Nelson Yeah. Pete Wright move in a way that is confusing without adding new meaning. So jumping between characters and moments loses emotional buildup for me. Andy Nelson But you don't have that problem in the first two because it's the same thing in those films. And in fact, if anything, we have more connection because Rika, that was one thing Shimizu did look at changing because he knew that like with a feature theatrical film, audiences kind of want a central character you can kind of be following. And so Rika became kind of that center point we see at the beginning and there's kind of a midpoint and then she follows through at the end. Pete Wright Yeah. Yeah. No. And I did have this problem with the with the second movie. Right. Because and that was my sort of central thesis for wanting to recut those as two movies. Andy Nelson Thank you. Pete Wright I think they would have been or as one movie. I think they would have been better taken as a as a whole that that I think everything I needed to get out of Juwan, I got out of the very first one. And everything since then has been a retread that I find kind of snoozy. Andy Nelson It's important in sequels to be doing new things. So, I mean, did you like any of the changes that they made to what was going on with the story as far as like how Kayako and Toshio were interacting as far as the other ghosts appearing, things like that? Like, I mean, it's not just all retreads. And so I'm curious, like, how did any of that strike you? Pete Wright Yeah. I mean, it's so it's not it's not all retreads, but is it qualified innovation or is it a sort of predictable set of tools? I do think that and I know why Kayako's crawl in particular has become, I don't know, that sort of visual metaphor for inevitability. And we get that in these movies. And I brought up the coming out of the of the belly because I think that was an important moment. The way the movie uses that particular horror metaphor to allow us to better internalize the fact that that same concept of generational inevitability, you can't escape it because it's already inside of you, I thought was was really good. And I think it reflects my understanding of Japanese anxieties that actually feel like social commentary today, not in 2004 or 2002, that sort of unseen social decay. Another visual metaphor, the fact that they have Tokyo that is largely empty with the missing persons stuff all over the place. Like, that was some extraordinary and beautiful sort of filmmaking. Like, I just thought it was a fascinating approach to this idea of isolation in urban life and something that giant cities struggle with, Japanese sort of culture struggles with, I think, a lot. But with the exception of that specific, you know, coming out of the belly, there was still just a lot of Kayako and Toshio wide-eyed staring at victims. And I guess I found it a little tiresome. The three schoolgirls I thought was great, similar to what we had in the second movie with all the Kayakos showing up at the end through the glass, which I thought was a great nod. I just am not sure. It just didn't affect me. That's, I guess, the sad part. I never felt scared during these movies. I never felt emotionally connected. And I immediately after that, I sat down and watched Barbarian. And I've seen Barbarian once. And that movie still gets me. It still gets me every time because of the way, and I'll compare it specifically, the way it uses darkness. Now, obviously, it's a two-decade later, more modern film. But that's not to say that it just has a different understanding of the way light and dark are used. And I think the video, the V cinema versions of these movies did a better job at using light and dark than this film version of the movie. Andy Nelson that's interesting because i mean largely these films are films that take place in bright scenes like we're not seeing much in the way of darkness right like they're largely like daytime moments that are happening when somebody is killed like there's there's not a lot of dark that we're getting Pete Wright There's not a lot. We get some attics and closets and slow opening of sliding doors. And I think that that might be part of the problem because one of the most effective sequences in all the movies that we've seen so far, I think, was the first time she looks up in the attic with the lighter and out of the darkness comes Kayako. And it is still one of the most effective jump scares for me in all of these movies. And nothing has achieved that. And part of it might be because of the kind of rejection of darkness as a utility trope in horror. Andy Nelson well while i can see that i i don't think that it means that like i i just feel like that's kind of diminishing the power of what you can do in brightness with a horror film. You know, I mean, The Shining is another great example where it's not a film that's full of dark. It's actually, you know, brightly lit hotel rooms and hallways and everything. Pete Wright Well, Andy, of course I'm not saying that you can't make horror movies with light. Andy Nelson And I think... Pete Wright What I'm saying is like the most effective thing in this movie series so far has been a use of light and dark in high contrast. And I haven't had anything since then. Andy Nelson ... Pete Wright And I wonder if it's because they're doing something different because nothing in the light has been scary to me. And I go into these movies looking for a scary ghost story. And I'm especially impacted by paranormal stories like those stories scare me. And this didn't. And I'm trying to figure out why. I'm not rejecting daylight horror movies. Right. Not at all. You can absolutely do one. Midsommar is my favorite horror movie. A lot of that happens in broad daylight. So, you know better than you know better than that about me, Andy. Come on. Andy Nelson no i'm i'm using your words you basically just said that like he doesn't know the utility of the trope of darkness like you're making it sound like because he didn't use darkness he failed at making this film because he doesn't he doesn't accept that he needs dark scenes to scare people Pete Wright I said, I wonder if that rejection in this movie is part of what makes me second guess it. Not he's terrible at making movies because he doesn't use darkness. He actually made the scariest jump scare in the series. Like, I totally acknowledge that. I'm just saying I didn't connect with this movie. It's not a great movie for me. It was a snooze. I wasn't scared. And the cultural fabric didn't make up for it for me. It didn't make up for that. It was a 92-minute movie that felt like three hours. Andy Nelson Okay. Pete Wright I'm trying to parse why that is. I really am. Like, I want to. I went into this movie wanting to have a better impression of it than I did. So I'm really trying to learn. Like, what is it that made me not connect with this movie? Because so many people do. Andy Nelson I don't know. Pete Wright I feel bad. I feel like you're taking this as a personal affront because you liked it. Andy Nelson No, it's just, I just don't know what else to talk about with you. Like, what else do you want to talk about then? Pete Wright I want you to tell me what else you loved. Like, what else really made this really made it shine? Andy Nelson I mean, I love that we have more interesting, like there's new characters, like we've got this sense of the older community in Japan that we have, which, you know, that's a whole element of stories in Japan of older people who are dying alone, aren't getting taken care of, etc., etc. And that's one of these stories that we have here is we have this old woman who's now living in this place. And there's this sense of disconnect that she has with her children and the way that that relationship unfolds with them begrudgingly taking care of her, right? Like the son and his wife have her living there. Pete Wright . Andy Nelson And she's kind of like, there's an element of her, I don't know, we see this a number of times in this film. And I found it to be kind of interesting, a number of times where we see older people who these spirits aren't taking, but they seem to connect with in some way. Now, eventually, the old lady does get taken by Kayako, but she's been in the house for a while. She seems to be suffering from the ghosts. I mean, she's obviously also having some serious health issues, as we see with the as we pan past the yard and we see the very dirty blankets that didn't get cleaned very well. So we have this sense of her living in this space where she's somehow dealing with what's going on. And I find that to be an interesting element that they're not taking her. Same thing later in the film where we see Rika as she's back at the health clinic, I believe. And there's this old man that she's going to be helping and she's talking to somebody. And through the glass, we see this old man kind of like playing peekaboo with, as we know, it's Toshio, who must be standing outside by Rika. And as she then gets him in his wheelchair and is pushing him around, he keeps doing it. And we see a reflection and we see that Toshio is actually standing there. And so we have this sense that these older people are somehow seeing and connecting to them. But I don't know, is it a disconnect from their power or their story or what that is somehow kind of keeping them from taking the person? And again, eventually Kayako does come and take Grandma. Pete Wright Did Kayako take the old man? I can't remember now. Andy Nelson Nobody took that old man. Pete Wright Nobody took the old man. He was fine. Andy Nelson Yeah, Rika wheeled him to wherever it was she was taking him. And I mean, it was really mostly just focusing on Rika. but we're just getting a sense that they're lingering around her. And that also leads to her understanding, I guess we'll say, toward the end of the film, that there is this ability to potentially get closer to seeing the spirit world by putting your hands over your face, kind of in that peekaboo way and peeking through your fingers, which is what she does, and she realizes she does that when she's looking in the mirror, And then when she pulls her hand away, she sees Kayako in her reflection. And that's when she kind of freaks out in Kayako. It's almost like Kayako had been hiding within her or something. I'm not exactly sure what that was all about. But she kind of comes out of her, right? And so, I don't know. It's just an interesting connection that we're seeing with the older people and the way that they maybe are closer to the spirit world by that point in their lives. Pete Wright okay bear with me take anthony hopkins performance in the father okay so you're you're watching the father every time anthony hopkins goes into a strange dementia related fugue state Toshio is somewhere in the room. Okay? Like, that, you just unlocked for me. I know you're not saying anything because I'm not making sense yet, but wait for it. Everything you're describing, you're talking about, makes me think that this entire experience of the curse, the grudge, particularly in this movie, could be seen as a really powerful metaphor for dementia, frankly, right? And the older these people are, the more affable the curse is to them, right? They're seeing sort of another world. The younger, the more they fight. We have fragments in time. We have disorientation. We've got repetition with variation, another trope that has been repeated in dementia movies. We've got loss of identity, for sure, because all of these people, Once they're taken by Kaiko, by the curse, they are relegated to essentially identical to themselves. All of their identity and personality is stripped away. They just become the sort of zombie-ish cursed thing. The house itself becomes kind of a cursed organism that is unrecognizable to its inhabitants. And we've talked about the inevitability, the sort of generational inevitability, the inescapable decline of the mind. All of that fear for the people who have not yet been subsumed by Kayako, by the curse, are scared because of their unabiding fear of losing control. There we go. That's my thesis. I think it's actually a movie about dementia. you Andy Nelson I wonder how the schoolgirls fit into all of that. It's an interesting theory. I'll give you that. It's an interesting theory. I don't know what to say about that. Pete Wright well i mean it just it resonates for me around the anxiety of cognitive decline right and it's both Andy Nelson Yeah. Pete Wright for those experiencing it and for those who get to witness it, right? It becomes, I think the schoolgirls could be a reflection of it because they, you know, they become unknowable to the people who are experiencing it. I think the entire world becomes unfamiliar, whether you're living with it or you're living with those who don't understand you anymore. They're just as much sort of unfamiliar monsters. So, you know, this is me reaching for kind of an interpretive overlay for this movie. I don't have any reason to believe Shimizu was intending this, but it does make me more curious and it kind of emerges for me pretty naturally from the film. Suddenly, because of you, this is your fault. Andy Nelson It's my fault. I also think it's interesting that as we come back to Rika, this is later in her life, right? Pete Wright Her hair is different. Andy Nelson Well, we jump like 10 years. It's the biggest jump we've ever had in this franchise, where largely our jumps are all within, I don't know, a year or two. It's like 10 years because the little girl that we follow later, Izumi, she is all grown up. Like we first meet her when she's the young girl who's the detective's daughter. And then when we come back to her later, like she's a high school. And so there's this point where Rika had like that whole final act with Rika. It's her friend who is now kind of that, again, school workers who have to make house calls. I still don't understand how that plays out in Japanese society. but she has to go to each of her students and have like a house call with them. And so she goes to Toshio and Rika recognizes what's happening and tries to run over to the house. And that's where she has this whole thing where Kayako comes out of her in the mirror and all this sort of stuff. And then that's where Takeo comes down the stairs with the knife. And that's like the last thing that we see is his bloody hand reaching for her face. before we now see her as essentially the dead body in the attic, right? She's wrapped up in plastic and it's got the bloody, the eyes and everything and the death rattle and everything. So it's almost like Kayako, I don't know, is an interesting way to interpret like, is this kind of what, how things go on with even other people that we have never really seen from the inside, but this is kind of what happens where they're kind of, once Kayako or family kind of connect with them that they thrust that person within the role of kayako as just another opportunity to kind of like have the scenario play out and they end up dead or missing or whatever the case may be like because that's kind of what happens is rika essentially is forced in some way to replay Kayako's role and get killed by Takeo and put in a bag up in the attic. That's essentially what happens as that plays out. I don't know. It speaks to the cyclical nature of this story. I don't know. Because we so rarely get to see what happens when people are taken. I'm just curious. Is there more to that element of these ghosts? like reliving their trauma through that other person's eyes Pete Wright Yeah, when do we see someone actually be taken that isn't hard cut away at that moment of action? Andy Nelson i mean taken in what way like when we see izumi get taken when the three girls are coming up behind her it's kayako who reaches through the their little home shrine grabs her by the head and pulls her into the darkness. She's literally taken into the darkness, and then we just have her and her dad's faces, like ghostly faces, hanging over the things. Pete Wright yeah we see a bunch of people taken up into the attic with just their feet being dragged out or hanging out and shaking. I guess that's true. Andy Nelson That's what happens to Riga's friend, Mariko. Pete Wright Mariko, right, right. I guess, like, Taken implies a couple of different things. Taken, like, moving their bodies out of scene, which is what happens. But what actually, what is the ghost, what is Kayako doing? Is Kayako infusing themselves into the person? Is it strangling the person? I think that's an interesting question. What is the verb that comes after taken? She takes them and then what to them? Because some of them just end up dead, but some of them end up her paranormal acolytes. Andy Nelson that's the thing and and even in the previous films we were wondering about this because some people definitely end up dead whether they're like scared to death sometimes the way that people look when they find them it looks like they were kind of terrified to death sometimes as we find out with the young girl, they ripped her jaw off and shoved it into another person. Like they do some physical gruesomeness and mutilation. Right. But then there are people who just completely disappear. The detectives in the previous film talked about that, where some people just like, what happened to that person? And I have a feeling here we're probably getting some of that. Like, I wonder if Izumi is one of these people who's just going to disappear. she's pulled into the darkness but will they discover her body hard to say it's kind of a strange way to kind of get taken and you just don't know what's going to happen with that but like the the security guard earlier in the film we know he's his body's discovered they find his body so they are finding some people's bodies we don't see them finding most of the bodies but we do see the couple the son and his wife you know the one who's living in the house they're discovered in the attic and they are the sort of bodies who look like they've been scared to death right they have that like kind of frozen terrified look so yeah it's it's hard to say what's going on with the people but then we have like the three girls that's another one like we know that they went into the house and all we know is that Izumi had left and that was that weird Pete Wright They walk out of frame, they're obscured by a wall, and we just hear screaming and construction noises. Andy Nelson where Izumi and her father had across time as they see each other. Him, when he's trying to burn the house down, her as a high schooler now, see, and they have that moment of recognition. And then he kind of goes mad and she ends up getting tormented by these three girls. And, but these three girls, like their bodies, we know, like the school has been like, you know, talking about the fact that what happened to the girls, like nobody knows what happened to these three girls. Zoom is the only one who knows they went into the house, but it does make me wonder if the police went into the house, would they actually find anybody? I don't know. I don't know if they'd find any bodies. Pete Wright Yeah, I don't know. There's an interesting thing about the sort of paranormal rules in this movie. And I guess there was a question we talked about in the last one, which is when there are multiple Kayakos crawling toward the kid in the classroom. They were physical beings, right? They could, you could touch them, right? Andy Nelson I think they're always physical beings. Yeah. Pete Wright They're always physical beings. And I think that's one of the sort of sets of rules in these movies that is culturally challenging for me because my expectation is so, for this kind of movie is maybe not that, that there is an extension of energy that is able to move things and be haunting and all that. Andy Nelson Yeah. Pete Wright But that all these people are ghosts and are also still sort of people is interesting to me because the girls, like you asked the question, would they find the bodies? Presumably no, because those bodies are inhabited by Kayako adjacent spirit and are wandering around somewhere, right? Andy Nelson yeah i mean who knows and even if bodies get discovered it doesn't mean that the spirits are now be able to be at peace right there's they're probably always going to be stuck in this situation you Pete Wright And some of the, yeah, so there is a set. I just don't think I completely understand Shimizu's rules around what these things are capable of when they exist, when they're vaporware, when they're like, you know, the phantasm black hole of a shape of a person walking or hovering over the old woman with Rika standing or sitting bedside. How does that phantasm of Kayako connect to the body of Kayako that crawls up and down stairs? That's a thing I don't I can't I can't put words to maybe yet. Andy Nelson well and even in the last film we had a moment like that where kyoko's mother looks up at the ceiling and there's that the whole ceiling has kind of a face of kayako up in the ceiling so there are moments where we have these sorts of things and it's interesting because the film starts more with kind of the the black fog apparition version of kayako like that's what we first see her like that when the old lady is getting when she's kind of sitting on the old lady right and that's when she turns and looks at rika and you just see the eyes through kind of that black fog same thing when we have hitomi go back to her apartment and she is afraid of whatever the thing is in the bathroom and leaves and the security guard goes up and she sees it on the camera that the black smoke kind of comes out and pulls him in and even the detectives see that later and then she comes out and goes right up to the camera so again it's transcending technology it's transcending everything and here's the thing sometimes I feel like when you feel the need to apply rules to these things that it can diminish some of the, the creep factor to it. You know, it's like, I don't know. I, for the, for me, this all works because it, it doesn't necessarily make sense. Pete Wright Yeah, I see that. And I think I'm still just struggling to, you know, apply an existing set of sort of cultural tools to what to make sense of the movie. I think the black fog thing is another, you know, let me just say just as an aside, this is a sidebar. The fact that the police could then watch the tape and see the same thing happen again, that the actual black fog was recorded on the video was a huge win for me in this movie because my expectation was that they would not be able to see it because that's a trope. Andy Nelson Thank you. Pete Wright Like it's only seen by the protagonist of the scene and then it would be erased forever because they want to make her unreliable. That's what I expected. They did not do that. And I really appreciate it, especially because in one of the remakes, they do exactly what I hate. It's terrible. And I groaned audibly. So this is that was a huge win. Andy Nelson interesting is because to yama is the detective and they bring him in and he doesn't want to have to deal with it he's the one who had dealt with the original seiki murders and they bring him in and he and they're showing him the tape and they leave the room for some reason and he is the one who watches it play out but then that spirit kind of walks out and comes up to the camera as if Kayako's ghost is still living on the videotape, right? Like she comes up right up to the lens and it turns black and then her eyes are there suddenly and he freaks out and leaves the room. And so that's what's interesting is like she's still there. Pete Wright Now, but the question is, would we, is that just because we've never seen them watch that far in the tape? Andy Nelson I didn't get that sense. My sense was that I feel like they would have said something Pete Wright That it's poisoned the tape. Kayako's poisoned the tape and part of her still lives there and is able to interact improvisationally. Andy Nelson she's sensing him it's almost like she senses his presence and because he was the one who had been involved it starts coming for him Pete Wright I don't know if that makes it better or worse for me, but that they broke that in a later version of this film, because it seems like because the person that was watching the tape in the later version of the film might not have been the person connected to the curse and in a way that Toyama was. And so that may actually make more rule bound sense, but I don't like it as much. Andy Nelson I do think it's interesting just the way that that plays out. It just speaks to the creepy way that these characters are doing new things. I also love the way that we have when Hitomi, after she has that experience, she runs to the elevator to go back to her apartment and hops in, and as she's riding up, every floor she passes, we see Toshio's head standing outside watching her. until she gets to her own floor and then he's not there it just really gives you the sense that like these characters are just i don't know they're just so haunting and then and then he's you know he finds her in her apartment and so i don't know i just i love the way that they kind of play with that where they're omnipresent in some capacity you know like they can really be anywhere Pete Wright yeah in the Sarah Michelle Gellar version the next version I think they that they do that same scene but uh Toshio gets closer and closer with every floor I think the first two floors Toshio standing back you can see their full body and then by the last floor the whole head is in the window and she doesn't see it at all because come on I mean she was Buffy the vampire slayer she would notice. Tell me what you think of the sound. I think one of the things that that this movie actually does directly improve upon being a cinematic exploration is the use of sound design, particularly around, you know, we get the mewing of the cat, but the death rattle, but the sound design for minimalist scares. How did you were you affected by the sound? Andy Nelson I like it. I think it pairs well with the music also to kind of deliver on a creepy vibe. the death rattles, just the other sounds that kind of accompany, like whether it's kind of like her neck cricking as she kind of like does her moves, her neck around and everything. There were a lot of those moments that they use quite well. And yeah, I think that it's, for me, I think the sound design is very effective. I like what Shimizu does with it here. Pete Wright I think there's a case to be made that actually the sound of Kayako approaching the stairs, the cartilage ripping and breaking, is scarier than the visual of Kayako. I think that's one of the things that the movie levels up in a really horrific way. I think I might be susceptible to gross sounds, and I notice every single one of them in this movie. Andy Nelson Yeah. There's not a lot of kind of specific sounds paired with this particular scene, but I just love the visual. And for me, like this was one of the key visuals that really stood out in this that was just so haunting is when you have Rika. This is that last story when she's or no, this is the midpoint story. She's at home. They had found her. Her boss, Hirohashi, had come to check on the old lady. he finds Rika essentially kind of catatonic in the corner. She ends up in the hospital. We know that they're kind of following her around. She goes home and she's trying to kind of like get things started again. And as she's in the shower washing her hair, you just see her hands reaching behind and another, a third hand kind of coming up behind and like grabbing her. And she turns and of course nothing's there. But then that leads to that. I love that moment. it's just so terrifying but that leads to that moment where you have her in her room and toshio appears and that's a creepy toshio because that's like he's just standing over her bed it's a great like full moment with toshio and then she looks up and sees that kayako is like standing at the edge the top of her bed like leaning over so her hair is practically in her face and then Toshio does that great sit that he's always done where he's sitting up with his knees and his hands are just kind of like wiggling around on his knees, just sitting at the end of the bed. Like that was a great moment. And this was something else that I thought was interesting. It's like, at this point, does Kayako in some way enter Rika? Because from what it seems is like, I'm trying to remember, do we see from that point on then we go to toyama who goes to burn the house down right and that's when he has that flash of his daughter and everything and so he no i guess not because because then kayako appears that was a great creepy moment where she's kind of crawling across the floor in the bedroom and he makes a noise and it's like she hears it it's like she almost even know he was there but she hears him and turns and still comes at him and he ends up making it out but the other two detectives also happen to be in the house and they end up getting killed by Kayako so Kayako is still around I was wondering if like we don't see Kayako again and she's like Enrica and then we have that 10-year jump and that's when she like emerges again but I guess that doesn't work if that if we have that scene there Pete Wright Well, especially because I think the second movie demonstrated for us that Kayakos are everywhere, really. Andy Nelson but that's very true yeah Pete Wright Like the house is poisoned. There's Kayako there, right? but Kayako is also with the people. Kayako is the representation of the contagion of the curse. And it always looks like Kayako, but there are a lot. My interpretation is there are lots of them. There are Kayakos in bed with you all the time, apparently, that just crawling up the sheets. That was a good bit, crawling up under the sheets. Always check the sheets. And, you know, I want to go back just real quick to the hand coming up the back. This one, the one I remember is the Sarah Michelle Gellar one. where the fingers come out of the scalp, right? They're like in the head. They're not coming up the back as an external person. They're inside. And that's so gross. I actually think I like this one better, right? That she was in the shower with Rika. Then Rika turns around. She's not there. I actually like that moment better. But it is one of the most horrifying images that has come out of these movies. And I think it is one of the most copied images in the other. It's certainly used in both of the direct remakes in some way, shape, or form. Andy Nelson also inevitably in wherever they parodied it in in one of the scary movies like that was Pete Wright Scary Movie 4, I think. Yeah, it was... Andy Nelson One of them had that same sort of thing. Pete Wright Yeah. Andy Nelson So, yeah. No, that plays really well. I like the way that all of that comes across. It's just a creepy element that we're getting. And it's interesting because that's another moment when we have Rika having that moment of realization later as she's doing the little thing with her eyes and she's flashing to all of those moments where she recognizes now she can see it's always been Kayako all along. And she has that moment where she remembers in the shower and you know we have that shot of of kayako kind of like putting her hand in her hair in the shower like she's recognizing that was her so yeah it's creepy it's interesting Pete Wright Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I guess as we get sort of toward the end, I think what's, you know, the structural narrative that I think does challenge a lot of Western horror is that by the last 10 minutes of the movie, we realize, oh, do you know what? like everyone's fate is sealed there's no no one safe and there's really kind of zero resolution and it's all pretty horrible and the protagonist really should have been kayoko all alone all along because she's the one who does who really does fine in all these movies that's i think an interesting perspective and i actually i appreciate that like it's doing something that that challenges the view Andy Nelson well and i just like that it's it's an interesting take on a ghostly curse of somebody getting killed where they just aren't going to stop like you can't find a resolution to bring that spirit peace so that they can go to heaven or whatever it's like nope they're just going to stay there and just keep killing people and that's pretty much it's going to just never end and you know god forbid you come into contact with anyone from that place because now you're screwed Pete Wright Yeah. And, you know, I mean, just one last point. You know, we did a whole series on home invasion movies for Sitting in the Dark and they're horrible. And I watched like 15 of them over the course of four days. And it's a terrible experience. And this movie kind of should have been in that in that list, because this is sort of the man, the original violation of personal space. You think when you get home, there are a number of those kind of sequences. When you get home, you're safe. But home is never safe again because it's cursed and it's always going to be horrible. And the call is coming from inside the house. It's just bad news. Andy Nelson yeah you're pretty much screwed in this one it's interesting to compare it to home invasion movies because there is a there is i suppose interest an interesting element of that I suppose you could say with a lot of haunted house movies, right? Pete Wright yeah yeah for sure this one's interesting because there's like no character to the house Andy Nelson Yeah, it's interesting. Pete Wright i think intentionally so like they took the most bland kind of japanese standard suburban construction and they made it scary. And a lot of haunted house movies, the house itself has more just sort of production character. Like it's interesting to look at. This one is like you wouldn't think anything of this house by looking at it. You kind of get that when Rika first shows up and the house is sort of overgrown. But in the first two movies, the house is just a normal, normal, the Seiki house. It's a normal house and horrible things happen in normal places all the time. And that, I think, is the setup to, you know, what makes this house important is not what it looks like or it's sort of extrinsic character, but the fact that it is more than its suburban trappings. Andy Nelson Well, it's like the poltergeist house in some sense, right? Pete Wright Yeah. Andy Nelson We talked about that a little bit on our upcoming CinemaScope episode about the house and the area because this takes place in, and you already mentioned kind of the emptiness, but this is Tokyo, but it's not downtown Tokyo. It's not kind of the central business district or areas that you see that are constantly full of people. These are the suburbs where you often have wide empty streets where people just aren't on. And then you have these houses that are kind of aspirational sorts of suburban houses where people want to live, where it's like you've got the takami mats on the ground floor and then you have more kind of westernized bedrooms around the rest of the house. Pete Wright Yeah. Andy Nelson And so it feels kind of like a blend of eastern and western types of housing, but it's pretty standard and there's not anything that different with it. And so you're getting the sort of house that is very, yeah, in some way, it's just kind of a bland every house that you kind of see. It's, yeah, it's not the creepy house from it or something. Pete Wright Well, and you know what's interesting about that? The Geller remake, where they move a bunch of Americans to Japan, the house is almost identical. It's clearly a different house, but the layout is exactly the same, right? You walk in, the stairs kind of steep up front. Andy Nelson Yeah. Pete Wright It's all the same. The John Cho version that came out recently, the house is a haunted house. Like it's a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad house. And you know it's terrible, horrible, no good and very bad the moment you see it. Right. And I think that's the that's the contrast. Like that's the very Western contrast. We're going to send a signal that this house is horrible the moment you see it. Andy Nelson Thank you. Pete Wright And the way it applies in this sort of Japanese horror is we all live in the Kayoko house. We all do because it's just, it's every house. Andy Nelson yeah yeah it's pretty interesting Pete Wright Have you seen the remakes? You've seen the Geller one. Have you seen the Cho? Andy Nelson i know if if any if i've seen another one it was the second american like the sequel the grudge 2 that came out like a couple years after that one did i can't remember for sure if i saw that one it's possible but yeah so that's all I've seen I've not gone down the road to kind of continue the exploration of this massive franchise Pete Wright It is a massive franchise. I'm, you know, I'm still plugging away. I don't know how far I'm going to get after we do The Grudge 2. I think I'll watch the second American grudge. Andy Nelson and then the third American one was a direct to video Pete Wright Yeah, I probably am not going to go that far. Andy Nelson which usually tells me I'm not going to find much in it Pete Wright Yeah, right, right, right. Andy Nelson all right well that's it for the conversation so we'll be right back but first our credits Pete Wright The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Quinton Koblentz, Guy Mar, Enon Zur, Oriole Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers numbers.com box office, mojo.com imdb.com and wikipedia.org. Find the show at true story.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show. Andy Nelson Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the arena where cinematic passion run high and friendly rivalries are born. In the wonderful world of film, there's nothing quite like the lively debates and good-natured grudges that unite us as a community of movie lovers. Perhaps you're a die-hard horror fan playfully ribbing your friends who prefer a different slasher icon. Maybe you're a sci-fi enthusiast ready to engage in spirited discussions about your favorite franchise. Or you could be a devoted follower of a cult filmmaker, eagerly sharing your love for their quirky storytelling. And let's not forget the cheerful defenders of Hallmark Christmas movies, spreading joy as they champion the charms of their beloved holiday fair. No matter where your cinematic allegiances lie, Letterboxd is the place where you can celebrate your favorite films and engage in friendly debates with fellow fans. It's a platform where movie lovers gather to log, review, and discuss the films that inspire and move them. As a member of Letterboxd, you have the power to champion your chosen films and connect with like-minded fans. With a pro membership, you'll enjoy an ad-free experience and create custom list to showcase your expertise. 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It's time to step into the arena and celebrate the magic of the movies. Pete Wright Andy, how'd we do it? Awards season. We got anything, any notes of note? Andy Nelson You know, we're starting to get notes of note with this franchise by this point. It did have one win with one other nomination. At the Screamfest Film Festival, it did win Best Foreign Film. And then at the 2005 Saturn Awards, it won Best DVD Release. No, it was nominated for Best DVD Release, but lost to, of all things, Starship Troopers 2, Hero of the Federation. Pete Wright I'm going to go ahead and say it. I think that's vindicating. I haven't seen Starship Troopers 2. Andy Nelson Maybe you should watch that first. Pete Wright Yeah, I'm going to see that first and see if I agree. Andy Nelson Okay, I can't wait for your review. Pete Wright All right. So I'm going to watch. I'm going to do a double feature of Starship Troopers 2 and RRR. Which one do you think I'm going to like better? Andy Nelson what a weird double feature i i look forward to the connective tissue as to like how it makes sense as as a double feature Pete Wright Excellent. All right. Oh, man. Okay. Well, speaking of high bars that may not be met, how did this thing do at the box office? Did you, using all of your budgetary investigatory prowess, find any information about how this movie did? Andy Nelson yeah well for shimizu's step up to features with the franchise i still unfortunately have no idea what sort of budget they gave him i was hoping that since it's a feature that be more information but there just isn't. That being said, I do have some release information. The movie premiered at Screamfest October 18, 2002, then opened in Japan August 23, 2003, and here in the States July 23, 2004, opposite The Bourne Supremacy and Catwoman. This was a limited release, but played domestically until early December, going on to earn $325.7 million domestically and $3.3 million internationally for a total gross of $6.4 million in today's dollars. Considering the franchise this film really spawned, I'd like to think it did well, but without the budget information, we just don't know. Pete Wright Well, okay. I mean, I guess that's something. I hope by the grudge, too, we're able to report some dollars. Otherwise, I'll have to give you a budget report on Starship Troopers 2, Heroes of the Federation. Andy Nelson I really have a sense that until we get to the American remakes, we're probably not getting anything, Pete Wright yeah yeah okay well there we did it i found it a little snoozy but there's still some stuff to Andy Nelson which is unfortunate. I guess we'll find out next week, though. Pete Wright like it's in there Andy Nelson Yeah, and it's interesting because I think by most accounts, you will find yourself in the minority with this because this is generally considered the best of the entire franchise. So if you don't like this, I'm curious if as you watch the rest, how they will hold up, particularly since you've already tried two other grudges. So we'll see. Pete Wright well let me tell you that you'll see in my review of the of the show remake there's not as good. I mean, I gave it the same review, but there are some things that they do with the characters in that movie that are appreciably sort of textually different than the movies, and I really liked it. I thought that it was really, there's some stuff in there that's very cool. Some character work that I think is really cool and interesting and different. So, you know, we're mining for diamonds here. Andy Nelson Well, see what you can find when you dig through the rest of them. All right. Well, we'll be right back for our ratings. But first, here's the trailer for next week's movie. Closing out this series, but certainly not the franchise. It's Shimizu's Ju-on, The Grudge 2. Pete Wright Day 12. The curse is spreading. I don't know how much longer I can keep moving from house to house before something follows me home. If you're hearing this, I have one last piece of advice. Something that might just save you. Go to truestory.fm slash join. For just $5 a month or $55 for the year, you can become a member of the next real family of film podcasts. And I know what you're thinking. How does that protect me from supernatural forces? It doesn't. But it will give you early access to every show in the family. This one, the film board, Cinemascope, Sitting in the Dark, movies we like, all delivered to a special member feed that's completely ad-free. Why is that important? Because when you're alone in a cursed house and you hear footsteps upstairs, the last thing you need is to be interrupted by an ad for life insurance. Plus, your membership helps all these shows keep going so we can keep watching, keep talking, and keep warning you about things like it's behind you. Join now. Trust me, you never know when you'll hear that sound. TrueStory.fm.com join okay letterboxdandy oh letterboxd.com slash next reel that's where you can find Andy Nelson Thank you. Pete Wright our hq page where we have all the reviews that we talk about uh of the movies we talk about on the show uh what are you gonna Andy Nelson of the ones I've seen, which is only the two before it and then that American remake, maybe the second. I just really can't remember. Pete Wright do Andy Nelson But I really enjoy this one. I have a great time with it. So this is an easy four stars and a heart for me. Pete Wright Okay. I came in at two stars, but I'll tell you with our conversation, I'm going to give it two stars and a heart because there's, I think there's more to it and I like, I enjoy talking about it. And so there you go. Andy Nelson Three stars in a heart will be the average over at our account at thenextreal.com slash letterboxd. No, at letterboxd.com slash The Next Real. I said all that backwards. You can find me there at Soda Creek Film, and you can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about Juwan the Grudge? We would love to hear your thoughts. Hop into the Show Talk channel over at our Discord community, where we will be talking about the movie this week. Pete Wright When the movie ends. Andy Nelson Our conversation begins. Pete Wright letterbox giveth andrew Andy Nelson as letterboxd always doeth Pete Wright okay i think by the sound of your laugh i think you have probably a tight funny one Andy Nelson It is. I think you should go first, since you've got a whole thread. Pete Wright well it's a thread it's because okay so the first one is five stars no heart from pucky eddy Andy Nelson Pucky Yeti. Pucky Yeti. Pete Wright pucky eddy p-u-c-k-i-e-t-y would you say that differently pucky eddy pucky eddy i i as i said Andy Nelson Okay. I think that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. Pete Wright it out loud i realized i maybe wouldn't spell it the way i'm saying it this is very confusing Anyway, Pacchietti says, Tyler spent most of the movie wailing whenever a ghost appeared, which really added to the experience for me. And I thought to myself, well, that's an interestingly personal kind of review. And I kept reading. The next one's five stars and a heart from Molly. The best part was listening to Tyler scream with terror every time someone got grudged. I love you, J-Horror. I love you, Japanese ghost slowly crawling at the screen. I love you all consuming dread. And I thought, some people really like to watch Tyler. I wonder what Tyler thought of this review. And then I come across five stars of the heart from Tyler. I've never screamed so much through a horror movie. And I found myself so tickled by that three letterbox exchange, especially because I didn't scream at all. And so it makes me really worry a little bit about Tyler. But grateful to Tyler for Puckietti and Molly's Watch. sounds like he really added something Andy Nelson that's a lot of fun and i would just i i just want to reiterate the fact that all three of them were five star ratings so yeah so yeah yeah look at that well i went uh three stars by mazen kaiser Pete Wright they're all five stars yeah i went high for you i went high i want you to tell me i have joy in my Andy Nelson who i is a name i know we've come across before uh this one made me laugh like in toy story old people just scramble around the house when you're not looking? Pete Wright life That's really good. That's really good. Andy Nelson That lady at the beginning, his wife, where she's just like, I was up all night. Your mom is just like running around the house, like making a mess. Pete Wright I love so much trash. Thanks, Letterboxd.