Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Can you love Jesus AND use the Enneagram? (Enneagram 101 part 2)

Transcript

Can you love Jesus AND use the Enneagram? (Enneagram 101 part 2) · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast with Amy Wicks, your wholehearted life and business coach.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: You should know this podcast will inspire you to grow in self-awareness, be passionate about your faith, and get clear on your calling.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you are new here, then welcome to the community of multi-passionate women who love to go deep on topics like faith, Enneagram, relationships, leadership, and community.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: This conversation might provide the step you need to make the change you desire.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get started.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: When I clicked to read the message, well, it was clear she had some concern about that day's meeting with my small group.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I read the message quickly.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Amy, I'm concerned about your use of the Enneagram.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: I responded quickly, oh, hey, hello.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Group is about to start, but what is your concern?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then a video came through with a question of, have you seen this?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, I clicked on the YouTube preview and the title read, The Enneagram is a satanic occult.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Ugh, I felt my heart go into my stomach, and I quickly wanted to write back, yet also acknowledge that I had no way to dive into this video before my group began.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: I hated to leave her hanging and my heart hanging, to be honest, but the moms were coming in for coffee, affordable babysitting, and grown-up conversation.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, as they filtered in and I gave their hugs and squeezed their sweet little babies, my mind was still stuck on that text thread with this friend.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: I do consider myself a super responsible person and a Christ follower, so I was really concerned about what this friend was saying about the Enneagram because I would never want to promote something that was evil, much less evolved in the occult.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was disturbed.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I had received some questioning over the years about utilizing Enneagram and my podcasts and on social media, but I hadn't yet experienced someone that I knew well and respected questioning my use of the Enneagram.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: So unfortunately, I had to let that sinking filling just sit there as I continued leading the room full of women who was there for lessons on Enneagram and motherhood.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, as was usual, the time together with these young moms was rich and full of revelation, and we were even experiencing breakthrough.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was a reminder of what I was experiencing not only in my home, but also through Zoom with one-on-one clients.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Every single time I utilized this tool with others, I would walk away feeling exhilarated, especially as women were thanking me for helping them get out of places that they had felt stuck in for so long.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: As I wrapped up that group and with the last mom gone, I suddenly remembered that text I got from my friend.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what was I going to do with this?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I had some pat answers for why I felt comfortable with using the Enneagram, but with this valid concern, I decided maybe I needed to do a little bit more research.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what if the Enneagram comes from an occult practice?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: What if the origins are steeped in Sufism or steeped in new age teaching?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And even though I was experiencing good fruit from this personality tool and I could see it in others, is it still good if this typology has been tainted?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I decided it was time to face the music, put on my investigator hat, and do some research.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I decided that I needed to be willing to face the facts and determine once and for all should Christians use the Enneagram.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly had prepared myself to drop the Enneagram if I could not justify the use, because I believe that making Christ known is the most important mission that I have.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: It really is the truth and my why in all things.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I took several months to go through the research that I've put in a book and I've shared on this podcast before.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: I explored, I dug around, and I compiled a ton of information to carefully inform my decision of whether or not I could continue to share the insights of the Enneagram while pairing it with a faith-based perspective.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: This conversation will only scratch the surface today, but of course, I have plenty of resources for you to dig in deeper on this topic of conversation.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if you already feel comfortable with using the Enneagram as a follower of Jesus, then I hope this conversation will encourage you and you might be able to share it with others who are questioning the use of the Enneagram.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned, I have a book on this topic and lots of other resources to share with you.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: But before we continue, I want to share my intent.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: First, Jesus is first and foremost the passion of my life.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Without having a saving relationship with him, my life would truly be meaningless and void of hope.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Second, I believe if Jesus and the gospel message is our priority, then it's healthy to disagree about the non-essentials of our faith.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it be your view of weekly communion, church boards, end times, or female pastors, we might find ourselves with different beliefs, but I hope that we can still be friends because we love Jesus and we want to share the hope that we have in him.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: My lifelong goal and mission is to love God and people.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: You can find that directive in Matthew 22, verse 37.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I have made it my passion to encourage others to do likewise.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the goal of this episode is not to convert you to use the Enneagram, but rather to engage with curiosity about this typology, what it is, what it's not, and what it might do for you.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: For today's conversation, I'm going to give a brief overview of the Enneagram origins and history.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: There is so much more to add to the conversation, and I'm going to be sure to put all those additional resources in the show notes.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when I listen to episodes that talk about numbers and dates, my mind tends to go a little blank or I lose attention quickly.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: But for the sake of trying to keep you tuned in and following along, I want you to imagine a timeline.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a historical timeline.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just going to take step by step by step down the timeline of what we know about the Enneagram, or at least what I feel is worthwhile mentioning today.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: So at the beginning, well, not the beginning, but we can go back thousands of years ago.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that is where many teachers believe that the Enneagram began as strictly an oral tradition.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what do I mean by oral tradition?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was just facts and tales and stories that was passed down from one generation to the next, like so many things that are involved with our history.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Before we figured out how to write on stone tablets, write on cave walls, or we finally use reads from the Nile for the paper to be able to write something down, everything was just passed down with conversation.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: There are many Enneagram teachers that trace back the typology to thousands of years ago.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: But there is no actual proof.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have specific documents to be able to back that up.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yet, of course, as I mentioned before, some people have written out that it is an ancient tool.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you are looking for a single origin of this typology, you will also be disappointed.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Its history is very eclectic.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: But what we can surmise is that the personality system that we have today as the Enneagram is probably very different from ancient days.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you learn from one teacher to the next, you will also hear differences and different methodologies in presentation and in use.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: But in its earliest history, the emphasis was that the information about the Enneagram was to be provided by a guide to help an individual understand their reflection of the creator.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: The first player in the Enneagram history that I'm going to mention today is Dante, an Italian poet, writer, and philosopher.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Dante's main characters in his written work, The Divine Comedy, correspond largely to the Enneagram types, so perhaps the concept of nine unique personalities was consistent with storytelling or, again, various oral traditions or tales.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: The next important person on the timeline of the Enneagram is Evangrius Ponticus.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: He was a Christian monk and ascetic who was an influential theologian in the late fourth century church.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: He identified seven deadly thoughts plus an overarching thought he called love of self.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: According to the standard list, the seven deadly thoughts, pride, greed, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony, and sloth line up to contradict the seven heavenly virtues.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: While Evagoras never used any specific typology teaching in his writings, the deadly sins were later incorporated into spiritual-based teachings, contrasting the nine personality type sins and virtues.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: The third person worth mentioning in the history of the Enneagram is Ramon Lull, who in the 13th century gave us the first actual representation of a nine-pointed star resembling the Enneagram.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: The fourth person on the Enneagram's timeline history to mention is George Gurdjieff.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: He is attributed to being the one who formulated the Enneagram figure.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the stories about his character, religious practices, and teaching are really kind of out there.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it is worth noting that he made contributions to the Enneagram, specifically the symbol that we use.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think it's worth saying that the coaching practices and insights that we use in the current teachings of the Enneagram do not resemble any of his contributions.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's clear in the history of the Enneagram that he also didn't further develop or create attributes for the nine types associated with the Enneagram personality system.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the fifth person worth noting on the Enneagram timeline, Oscar Ichazo, is generally recognized as the principal source of the contemporary Enneagram of personality ideas.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: He was the first to expand on concepts introduced by Vigarius.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oscar Ichazo was a Bolivian-born man who began teaching programs of self-development in the 1960s, and he used the Enneagram figure among other symbols and ideas.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: He also founded the Arika Institute, which was originally based in Chile before moving to the United States, and he coined the phrase Enneagram of Personality, and then he tied the symbol to the nine types.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Then the Enneagram movement in America combined elements of his system with the Enneagram of the Passions, the Enneagram of the Virtues, the Enneagram of the Fixations, and the Enneagram of the Holy Ideas.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: So Achazo drew on his knowledge of a number of different traditions related to the Enneagram, including Grudiff's work, but the actual combination of those traditions and what we know now are primarily his formation.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: The sixth critical teacher on the timeline of the Enneagram is Claudio Naranjo, and he does tend to be a source of major controversy.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Naranjo is a Chilean-born psychiatrist who first learned about the Enneagram of personality from Attrazo at a course in Aureca, Chile.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: During this stage of learning, he's spent 10 months with Jesuit priests who are noted to have adapted the Enneagram for use in teaching topics that they had learned from Achazzo, expanding the holy ideas, fixations, virtues, and passions.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Naranjo is attributed to taking the Enneagram teaching to small circles in the U.S., specifically college students who adopted the material and began to write books based on their understanding.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was specifically in this transfer from taking it as a spiritual direction tool that was meant to be between a small group of people and then to this big scale of teaching in the US that was attributed to have altered the relationship between Echazo and Naranho.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Apparently, during this time, Ichazo disowned Noranho and the other Enneagram teachers.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Ichchazo felt that Naranho was misinterpreting and improperly using the typology in a way that was never intended for the general public.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And Echazo feared that the general public would not be able to handle such a powerful tool.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, again, I had mentioned before that this sixth notable player on the timeline, Naranho, there is some controversy surrounding him.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: He does have various different accounts of how he learned about the Enneagram, how he began to use it and expand on it.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the one that is most notorious and most familiar is that he is documented to have said that he got the Enneagram through automatic writing.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, pause real quick.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: You may have never heard the term automatic writing before, and that's okay.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't either before getting this YouTube video.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So for the sake of full understanding, automatic writing is a phrase that is sometimes associated with a psychic ability that allows a person to produce written words without consciously writing.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I look at that definition, my woo-woo radar definitely goes off.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: As in, I'm not too sure that I want to participate with anything that could be connected with an occult.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: So here is what we do know.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to give you the high points.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then again, I have put a lot of resources in the show notes that dive deeper on this topic so you could learn more for yourself.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, different valid experts and researchers actually approach Naranjo and those who learn from Nurano to clarify this statement regarding automatic writing.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it is clarified that his phrase saying that his reference to automatic writing most likely refers that Naranjo sat down to write and allowed the flow of decades of study and research and knowledge to come together.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, his work was all originally based on what he learned from Ichazo's work.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And Ichazo's work, again, was a combination of many other various Enneagram teachings passed down through history.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you can dive deeper on this topic and the question of that, but ultimately I do feel satisfied that I don't believe that he was saying that statement is related to an occultic practice.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: It seems very clear that Naranjo and Achaza both weren't dabbling in occultic practices, that their belief systems would not have aligned with anything along with automatic writing practices.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now we're on to our timeline.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we are now looking at the 1980s and 90s.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: There are numerous people who fall into adding to the work of the Enneagram.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to list a few of these names here, but just know now we're all away in the late 20th century, and some of these names are going to be familiar.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we have books on the Enneagram personality.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, some of these authors were Don Richard Rizzo, Helen Palmer, Elizabeth Wiggill, and Richard Rohr.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, there have been numerous certified teachers along those lines who have continued to expand the work of the Enneagram.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And even though resources on the Enneagram are few and far between, it has begun to slowly make their way into therapists' offices, it'd be used by coaches, counselors, spiritual directors, and even the workplace.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And as we look to the last 20 years, so 2002 now, we can see many authors have integrated the Enneagram concepts into practices of faith.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: One of the pioneering authors was Richard Rohr.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And in his book, The Enneagram, a Christian Perspective, he shows both basic logic of the Enneagram and its harmony with the core truths of Christianity in line with early church and going forward.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, since then, there's dozens of authors who hold a faith-based perspective and use the Enneagram and have flooded the market with their unique interpretations, their uses, the good fruit and success stories, and highlighting that you can incorporate this typology into practically every facet of life.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and here we are today.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: What a history! There is so much to read and learn on this subject, but I really wanted to offer you a few high points in one conversation within a reasonable timeframe.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you want greater details on the highlights that I've shared today, I would love to point you to my book, Should Christians Use the Enneagram, that you can find on Amazon and Tyler Zach's The Real History of the Enneagram.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's an informational course complete with pictures and diagrams, all sorts of fascinating insights that you can get really easily.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Check out the link in the show notes with a special coupon code for you.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, because this topic about using the Enneagram, its origins, is it evil, can you love Jesus and use the Enneagram, all of that, it's such a hot debate.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's worth sharing one last detail and leaving you with this thought as we close the conversation.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: If using the Enneagram causes your faith in God to weaken, or in a sense causes you to stumble, then engaging with the insights of this Enneagram may not be suitable for you.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: As I've listened to many prominent objecting voices on this topic, I wonder if using the Enneagram is similar to an alcoholic who is recovering going to a bar.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: It might be years, if not a lifetime, that they should avoid putting themselves in a position of such overt temptation.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: If a resource or a tool is causing you to replace your first love to Jesus and it doesn't empower you to love others, then I do think it should be avoided.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: My hope is that today's detailed information and exploration of some of the history of the Enneagram helps to satisfy some of your questions.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you're listening, you'll see that there's no direct connection to the formation of the Enneagram to a specific occult doctrine or automatic writing or a specific religious affiliation.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: It is evident that many have co-opted Enneagram insights and teachings for their own purposes.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And some of those teachings may contradict a Christian worldview.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps some teachers through the years have had evil intentions.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: We can't know.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: But what I do know, there have been certain Enneagram teachings that I wouldn't be comfortable with engaging or even share.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: However, just because they exist, I don't think that means we cannot use this personality typology.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I'm all the more impassioned to use the Enneagram as a spiritual growth tool for the body of Christ.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: A final question to ask yourself is who's going to teach me about the Enneagram?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Does it support my relationship with my creator and Savior?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Does the Enneagram contradict the essential tenets of my faith?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then I encourage you to examine the fruit in your life and others.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is the Enneagram enriching your spiritual growth?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, is it helping me love God and love others better?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And don't worry, I'm going to be having several more conversations over these next months about how to use an Enneagram, how not to use the Enneagram, and how the Enneagram might make your life better.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I do hope that after listening that you have learned or maybe relearned a few helpful facts as you dive into this typology tool.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you were part of the choir and you wanted to share this insight with those who are new to the Enneagram, be sure to use this app's share feature and send them this informative episode.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: This spring series about what the Enneagram is, what it's not, and what it can do for you will continue next week.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm also bringing back the summer in the Enneagram this year so you can invite more of your friends to benefit from this resource.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, friend, continue to pursue God's perspective, purpose, and plans for your simply wholehearted life.