Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Such Is Life: Luke Bona's Untold Australian Story | Luke Bona

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Such Is Life: Luke Bona's Untold Australian Story | Luke Bona · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: A Podhay Production.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Adam shand a change of pace today. From time to time,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: it's been my pleasure to talk crime with my good
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: mate Luke Boner on his Bona Fidie podcast. Recently he
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: asked me to come on to discuss the myth making
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: around Desi Freeman and the inevitable comparisons with Ned Kelly.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Jessi Freeman supporters gather outside court as legal battle continues.
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: Commentators draw fresh comparisons to Ned Kelly, warning of a
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: dangerous new myth in the.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Making too easy.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: But we didn't stay on that for long, as somehow
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Luke's indigenous identity came up and I literally took over
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: his podcast, asking him to reveal for the first time
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: a painful story of how he came to be raised
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: in a white family and how when he sought out
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: his biological mother this brought her into danger.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Adopted Australians turning to DNA ancestry sites in record numbers
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: to trace biological roots. Experts warn reunions can reopen decades
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: of wounds for all parties involved.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: It's a poignant story of loss and betrayal that I
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: want to share with you as well.
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: One of our regular guests here on the Bona Fide
• 1:30
  Speaker 4: podcast is a very good made of mine. He is
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: the best crime reporter journalist in the land. His name
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: is Adam Shann and from the True Crime podcast that
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: he joins me again now hat and all.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Hello brother, Hello mate, how are you? I'm really really
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: good now.
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: The reason I wanted to talk to you on this
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: podcast is because I'm a follower of yours on social
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: media and you wrote something really interesting the other day.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: About Ned Kelly, arguably.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: One of Australia's most famous or infamous criminals, and you said,
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: I wonder if the fact that allegedly a police officer
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: raped his sister brought about his hatred for the constabulary.
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: And we go on and then with further information from you,
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: you draw a really interesting comparison between Ned Kelly's sympathizers
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: and Desi Freeman's sympathizers, and people who believed both had
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: a just cause and needed protecting. You've got a great brain, Adam,
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: a great brain. So before we talk about the comparison
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: between Desi Freeman and Ned Kelly, let's have another reminder
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: of Ned Kelly, who came from a very poor family.
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: A lot of his contemporaries felt very sorry for him,
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: felt that he was hardly done by his family, was badly.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Treated, and then he had a right to do what
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: he did. Well.
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: He shot innocent police people and a few others. But
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: he did survive for a long time with a network
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: of sympathizers and they evaded the police for two years.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Two years.
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: In the meantime they went on a crime spree, including
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: raids and Euroa Giraldry, the killing of Aaron Sherrit who
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: was a sympathizer who then turned police informer. Now it's
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: an amazing part of Australia's history and a lot of
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: people still feel a lot of sympathy.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: For Ned Kelly and the Desi Freeman. And he was deluded.
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: He believed he lived under a separate law and there
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: are still hundreds of people who agree with him. Anyway,
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: it's an interesting path. You're going to take us down today,
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: so I'll stop talking. So first of all, Ned Kelly,
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: tell us a little bit more about him.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Well, I think even back in the day Luke, the
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Kelly outbreak as it was called, was more than just
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: a crime spree. It was a genuine rebellion of his
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: family and a lot of sympathizers who felt that the
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: yoke of English tyranny, as ned called it the Giraldary Letter,
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: was choking the aspirations of ordinary people. And he could
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: writely argue that his family was targeted by police back then,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: and the police a very different organization, and in some
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: ways the Kelly outbreak led to the reform of police
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: and things began to change. So oppressed by the police,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: his mother arrested and given a three year sentence. He'd
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: tussled with a copper, you know. He ended up getting
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: jail for stock theft and he began to formulate a
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: coherent philosophy that could almost be the first stirrings of
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: republic in Australia, you could say. And having gone on
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: the run in eighteen seventy eight and then ambushing the
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: police at Stringybark Creek in the Wombat Rangers, he was
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: declared an outlaw who could be shot on site by
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: any citizen. There was an eight thousand pound reward put
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: for his capture and the gang capture, which is about
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: two million dollars today, and interestingly no one ever collected
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: on that, because he was a figure of great sympathy
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: amongst the working class and the forgotten, and the Irish
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Catholics in particular of the colony. And you mentioned Aaron Sherrett.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: That's an interesting way because he was a double agent.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: He was initially a sympathizer who was going to the
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: police and giving them. For instance, there was the Gerildary
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Letter was written in the little town in New South
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Wales and share it was sent to the police to
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: say the Kelly gangs headed for Goldben put your resources there,
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: when in fact they were headed for Gerialdry where they
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: intended to publish their letter.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: And fascinatingly when they.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Got there and they bailed up the police station and
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: took over the town effectively, and they were getting ready
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: to publish this eight thousand word manifesto and the printer,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: mister Gill, disappeared into the bush, so they couldn't even
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: print it. And the Deerrillary letter was full of political
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: aspiration as well as telling a story about his own
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: treatment with the police. See I would never condone shooting police.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: But there was a context to Ned Kelly's stand at
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Stringybart Creek where three police officers were murdered where they
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: believed that the police were coming, not to capture them,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: because at this stage they weren't murderers, they were simply
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: bush rangers, rustlers and so forth. But they believed the
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: police were coming to shoot them, in particular because they
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: were carrying a particular weapon, the spencer repeating rifle, which
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: was sort of the atomic bomb as day, and so
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: there was a belief that they were simply coming to
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: murder them. And so Kelly ambushed the police camp there
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: at Stringybart Creek and actually called them to bail up.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: He didn't just go and murder them, right. His notion
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: was that anyone who puts down their arms I won't kill.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: In that case, they did pull their arms, and there
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: was gunfire and three of them died in that and
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: it was terrible.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: And in the.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Gerialdary letter, Kelly seeks to justify his actions in the
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: context of the oppression of his family and other people
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: in general. And so what's happening with Desi Freeman at
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: the moment is a lionization of his very very different
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: agenda and trying to put it in the same terms.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: And we're already seeing myth making. You know, Frankly, Luke,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: we'd be better off. You and I have been working
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: in the media for forty years and we've strived for truth,
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: even when it was unpopular, when it's much more commercially
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: savvy to give them what they want, which is rubbish,
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: conspiracies and rubbish.
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: We talk about influence and you go back to I
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: think about eighteen sixty nine and you've got a fourteen
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: year old Ned Kelly who meets an Irish born bloke
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: called Harry Power.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: People would probably know him as Henry Johnson.
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: He was a transported convict who turned to bush ranging
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: in northeastern Victoria. He escaped from Melbourne's Petridge Prison and
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: the Kellys were Harry Power sympathizers, and Harry Power, Henry
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: Johnson became a mentor he did.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: That's correct, that's right.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: So and you know, there was a lot of bush
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: ranging going on, and there was a lot of sympathy
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: for those guys out there.
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: Because I wanted to ask you about we have this
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: romantic thing about how Australia's bush rangers somehow deserve to
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: do what they did, and you just think off the
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: top of your head. Number one there Kelly, but Ben Hall,
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: Captain Thunderbolt, Frank Gardner, Mad Dog Morgan, Captain Moonlight, Andrew Scott.
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: I mean we seem to have this romantic notion that
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: they were rebels with a cause, and not just that
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: a reasonable cause.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Am I correct?
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Well, of course Australia began as a jail and a
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: jail girt by sea, jail girt by sea, and a
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: lot of our early bush Rangers are Irish born or
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Irish extraction, and there was a highly political element to
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: this and it was literally seen as trying to take
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: down the English crown and to experience a freedom where
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: they would not have in normal society. So there was
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: a lot of sympathy for them. And mostly these bush
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Rangers didn't rob ordinary people. There were some exceptions to it,
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: but that's certainly the romantic notion, almost a Robin Hood
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: style Robin Hood.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: I was about to say, a Robin Hood. Oh, he
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: took from the rich and gave to the poor.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there are some fairly tragic exceptions.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, when Kelly.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Shot the three coppers there at Stringy Bark Creek, they
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: took their watches and their money and jewelry and things,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: and so a less attractive moment like that. But largely speaking,
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: they were They gained a lot of sympathy because the
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: English were autocratic. They were they were the jailers. You know,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: our first heroes were waters. The authority figures were everywhere
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: in the colony. So the bushranger offered another alternative, and
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: they lived off the land, and they often showed kindness
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: to the ordinary folk, and so they gained a lot
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: of sympathy. That Kelly's was the absolute climax of all that.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: But often they had very grizzly ends. When Ben Hall
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: was shot to death in an overkill situation, for instance,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: and so people were always aware of that the police
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: were coming to murder them.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: That was the notion back then.
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: The oppressive police have been running us down for generations,
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: and it's all fair in war and oppression. And you know,
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: you talk about myths, Adam shand most people would tell
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: you that Ned Kelly's last words were such his life
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: And I've tried to do some research, and that apparently
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: is a romantic myth. It was more likely from eyewitnesses
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: who have written this dam and his last words were,
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: oh well, I suppose it's come to this, But no
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: one says that. Everyone says, oh, his last words were
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: such his life, So where did that come from? Well,
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: myth making, you know, mythmaking of course. In fact, we
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: had a poster of kids with ned Kelly's face on.
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: It was such as life.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: But ah, it's come to this is you know, quite
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: similar in a way, isn't it. I mean it's the
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: same message, isn't it. It's a fatalism about one's destiny.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: And I think the Irish Catholics of Australia at the
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: time did feel that way, that life didn't show them
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: much favor. They had to live on their wits and
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: it could easily be taken away from them whatever they
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: were able to gain.
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: And the Ned Kelly legend is even further cemented into
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: Australian folklore because he was hanged in eighteen eighty on
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: the eleventh of November, the same date as Armistice Day
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: and the same date as the dismissal of GoF Whitlam's government,
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: the eleventh of November. So it's kind of cemented in
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: there that date, isn't it. Well, it is, that's right,
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: And the fact that the judge that sends to him.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: Sir Edmund Barry died not long after in an act
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: of poetic justice as well. No, I think I mean
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: the Kelly phenomenon starts the move towards federation. It starts
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: to move towards a republican feel in Australia, which I
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: think we're still struggling to come to terms with and
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: our complete independence from the English crown.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: And I think the.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Kelly story because Kelly had a bigger dimension going on.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: He glimpsed the future of Australia where there would be
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: some form of equality for working people.
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: Do you think a lot of Australians loved to be
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: able to say our ancestry was built on rebellion?
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Absolutely?
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: I think it's back in the old days people would
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: hide their convict background and make all kinds of stories
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: about where they come from.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: But now they're proud of it. Now we're proud of it.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: We're absolutely proud of it.
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: One of the proudest blokes I ever met was the
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: deputy head Master of Narrabeen Boys, Hi John Cable spelt
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: with a K, and he was so proud that he
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: was a first fleeter and in fact it was his
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: ancestors who were the first Cots married in the colony,
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: and their name was originally spelt with a C, but
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: they were illiterate and so they spelt it with a K.
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: And if you meet a Cable Kable, chances are they
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: are of direct lineage to the first Fleets. That's what
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: That's what mister Cable told me. Anyway, So there's enormous
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: pride in being a first fleeter and your ancestors being
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: sent here as convicts.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think Australians have, as I said, we're
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: sort of ashamed of the convict background and also often
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: many different kinds of backgrounds, let's face it. So we
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: were looking forward all the time and there wasn't a
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: lot of time for reflection. But I think as we
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: now become a mature nation, our backgrounds become very important
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: and it speaks to our national character, our traditions, and
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: so I think we should absolutely celebrate that because I mean,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Kelly's father was transported to Australia, I think for stealing
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: a pig. He died young, and so Ned became the
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: the patriarch of the family, if you like, And so
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: of that political experience, the transportation experience shaped Kelly's view
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: of his world and his family.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: Isn't it funny how things have changed? And I guess
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: only in Australia where we're proud that we've come from convicts,
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: because you've often heard the term indigenous, people like myself
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: saying I'm proud indigenous, And my missus Nikki has said,
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: why do you keep saying proud? I said, that's because
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: it was something to be ashamed of once, not by all,
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: but by a lot of Indigenous people. It was something
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: that you know, the Europeans tried to breed it out
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: and you've only got a few generations and it's gone.
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: Unlike Black African Americans, where the gene can come back
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: and swoop back at any point of time, it's a
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: different gene. And so there was a bit of shame
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: of stress again not withal, but now it's a very
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: proud thing to have indigenous heritage. Isn't it funny how society,
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: in the standards of society and the way you see
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: yourself changes.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Certaey does, And if you can indulge me, I don't
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: really know much about your indigenous story, Luke, could you
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: just give us a bit of a background of.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: Well, it's a long story and maybe it's a separate podcast,
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: but I'm happy to I was born on the tenth
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: of May at Crown Street Women's Hospital, and my mother
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: an Aboriginal woman by the name of Irene. She was
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: sixteen and she was originally from Burke. They moved to
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: Dubbo from the mission in Burke to the mission in Dubbo.
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: By the way, that mission in Dubbo, I've been there
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: many times on the Macquarie River at a place called
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: Terra Manger Mine where my grandparents were married. It was
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: in a floodplaine and anyway, so she had an affair
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: with a bloke she was deeply in love with. Unfortunately
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: he was engaged to her cousin. So there was a
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: lot of shame that she felt pregnant. So she disappeared
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: to Sydney and lived with a lady that we referred
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: to as Arnie sal And she lived at Newtown and
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: she gave birth to me on the tenth of May
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: Crown Street Women's Hospital and.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Tried to keep me.
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: And I think she had to pay a pound a week,
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: which seems a lot of money, might have been a
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: pound a month in order to board me at an
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: orphanage that was associated with Crown Street Women's Hospital called Scarborough,
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: and that was in BONDI. A time came where she
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: just stopped visiting and the money stopped. Now at the
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: same time, the parents who adopted me, and I wonder
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: how I would have turned out had mum kept me
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: because my grandfather, her dad, wanted her to bring me
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: back to Dubbo and to Burke and be raised as
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: an Indigenous person in Dubbo. Mum stopped visiting and my
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: parents wanted to have children, but they couldn't. It turns
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: out Dad got the mumps when he was thirteen and
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: couldn't have children. And they were playing tennis and there
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: was a pediatrician that was part of their tennis group
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: who was doing the rounds at Scarborough. The pediatrician and said, look,
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: there's a young boy who's getting quite old now, because
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: when you adopted a child, he would prefer it to
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: be a newborn. And at this point I was standing
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: up holding onto my cot apparently, would you like to
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: come and have a look at him, because I'm getting
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: worried about him. I think he's going to get too
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: old and be institutionalized because his mother.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Has just abandoned him.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: So they came and had a look, and they said
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: they fell in love with my dark skin in my
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: brown eyes.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: That I'm just saying.
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: So they would bring me home to the Northern Beaches,
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: but only for weekends. They had to return me by
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: Sunday night. In the meantime, they were trying to find
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: my mother and they couldn't find it. So my father
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: admitted this to me. He hired a private detective to
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: try and find out who this woman was.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: I won't say.
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: Her whole name here on the podcast, because they had
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: a name, and Dad's instructions were, look, just whatever it takes,
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: we've got to get this woman to sign him over
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: so we can bring him home for good. Because Mum
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: used to have nightmares that a big black car would
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: pull up the driveway and take me away, and she
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: that she refused to buy me anything because she knew
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: that one day she would probably have to relinquish me again.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: So we go back now to my indigenous mother who's
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: working at Peter's Ice Creams, and she's worked the night shift.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: She's walking home with her full pay in her pocket,
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: and she was assaulted to within an inch of her
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: life and hospitalized for nearly twelve weeks because the judge
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: had said that a period of time it might have
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: been ten weeks or eight weeks I can't remember, had
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: elapsed without her making any contact. I was then legally
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: described as abandoned and Brian and Joan Bohner were allowed
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: to adopt me. I then find my biological family many
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: years later and hear a different side of the story,
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: and I asked, my dad, did you order this private
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: detective to hurt this woman? He said no, I just said, look,
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: whatever it takes, we've got to find her. If she
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: doesn't want the child we do, we need signature. My
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: dad was not a violent man. So I think the
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: private detective may have taken things too far. Because when
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: I spoke to my aboriginal mother, she confirmed that she
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: was hospitalized.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: She also told me, so you think sorry to interrupt,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: but you think the private detective assaulted your biological mother.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: Because my biological mother told me when she was living
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: in the townhouse at Newtown with Arnie sal that a
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: man came and knocked on the door and said, does
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: Irene such and such from Dubbo live here? Yes, he said, oh, look,
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: I just need you to sign a piece of paper.
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: You've inherited some money and we need to process it
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: so that you can get the funds. And she said,
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: get out of my fan doorway. She knew that none
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: of her family had any money, and she believes that
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: was him. He was quite aggressive. That's all I can.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: I can only tell you what I've been told, Adam.
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: So then it turns out my mother had always said
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: that she gave birth to another child to the same
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: father a year and a bit later, and she was
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: told she'd never be able to have children again. She
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: was assaulted that seriously bit. She said that she did,
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: and I thought did she's telling fibbs. She said that
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: that child, same father's, was taken away from her at
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in nineteen sixty three. She was
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: never allowed to see the child. She heard the child
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: crying and the nuns took this child away and never
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: ever ever to be seen again. So, just two years ago,
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: I get a message on Facebook from a young girl
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: claiming to be my niece and that she'd done some
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: family history and she believed that I was her uncle.
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: And then in fact I had a full brother. So
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: I did a DNA test on answert. You know, he
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: did the swab. She had one from her and her
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: father who had passed away. I didn't get to meet him.
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: He passed away how long before, might have been twelve months, wow,
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: And it was a match. He was my brother and
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: she is indeed my niece. So the boy did exist
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: and he'd been adopted to. So there's a bit more
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: to it. And I wasn't expecting to go down this
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: path today, but the truth is the truth.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: I've got nothing to be ashamed of.
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: My parents said that they did not instruct any violence
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: at all, and that my parents truly believed that I'd
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: been abandoned, truly believed it. So there's a story I've
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: never told before, and you got it out to me.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: I'm good at that.
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: And my entire family, even though I looked completely different,
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: they never saw color. And because my dad's surname was Bona,
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: which is an Italian name, I looked like a Southern
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: Italian with dark skin. So it kind of worked for
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: a while until a dentist, an orthodontist, was looking at
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: my jaw and he said, I think this kid's indigenous.
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: By his jawliner. I'm just telling you what was told
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: to me. Yep and my cousins. Everyone believed. And Nikki,
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: the Minister for and Finance, who has known me since
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: nineteen seventy two, I always knew that you were indigenous.
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: I mean when I was a kid, I used to
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: Maybe every kid does this, but I used to go
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: down the shops for milk and bread and come back
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: two days later, and I would a kid does that,
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: and I would go.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Off in the dream world often, and yeah, I don't know.
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: Maybe I'm romanticizing it, and you can't romanticize history. All
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: I've told you today is what I've been told. There's
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: a lot more which you and I can go into
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: if you want. But as the late Jim Killen would
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: have said, if that's not a good yarn, there's something
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: wrong with all of us.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that. I mean my kids their
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: mother's African, right, So yeah, they're mixed race, and they
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: have always had this sense of being the other and
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: sometimes not white enough to be accepted by the whites,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: not black enough to be accepted by black people. And
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: I think you must have gone through some of that
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: feeling as well. And establishing an identity which was yours
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: and unique. And I think my daughter, one of my
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: to call it the third race nation. I think she
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: called it, which is like the mixed race people. And
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: rather than feeling pushed and pulled between these two worlds,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: they're finding a place in between. And I've never been
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: able to articulate that, but they, for their experience, have
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: had to live with that otherness and find a way
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: to live with that and feel a strong identity. And
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: you've obviously gone, I had no idea. This is fascinating.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: Well, I'm recognized w'adri because I spent a lot of
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: time in Bathist nineteen eighty four to November nineteen ninety nine,
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: and I have done as much as I can to
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: understand the culture that my family had and grew up with.
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: And it's fascinating, absolutely fascinating. But a lot of people say, well, look,
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: you're an Indigenous, and I do identify as Indigenous. I
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: can't change that, and I definitely feel indigenous, but I can't.
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: I shy away when people in the media asked me
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: to speak on behalf of Aboriginal people because I can't.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: I didn't grow up with the culture just enterprise, grew
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: up with the culture warra Munde and other outspoken Indigenous people.
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: I feel that because I was given the so called
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: privileged white background. And don't get me wrong, I'm so
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: glad that I had the education, the housing and lived
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: on the banks of Marabeen Lake and grew up where
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: I did.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I am delighted.
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: And I wonder how Luke Bona might have turned out
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: if he'd been taken as a child back to the
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: mission and would have grown up there. I wonder, sliding windows,
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: I don't know the answer.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is fascinating, you know. I did a podcast recently.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: A lady approached me, indigenous lady, and she talked about
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: her mother, Daphne Sansbury, having been murdered on the mission,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: or actually she'd come from the Mission, and that had
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: been murdered in Adelaide, and prior to that, all her
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: kids had been taken away from her, and one of
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: those girls was Adam Goods's mother, and this sort of
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: this family is separated and all the kids, some went
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: with the indigenous family, some stayed on the mission, others
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: went to white families. And there was just this yearning
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: in this pool and the lady who approached me told
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: the story of being with a white family and being
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: very grateful for that, getting good education, becoming a nurse,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: having all the opportunities, but missing that indigenous link, and
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: wanting to go out to the Mission Point Pierce to
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: find her mother and had turned back two or three
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: times because she felt she was betraying her white family.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And when she finally plucked up the courage to get there,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: she discovered her mother had been murdered. Wow, and it
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: was my privilege to get them all together at Horsham.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: The family hadn't been together for many years. Got them
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: all together at Horsham, had a day of telling stories
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: about about their grandmother, and I was finding information about
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: how she was murdered. The guy was never jailed, unfortunately,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: and so there was a lack of justice there. But
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: I think these questions of identity becoming more and more
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: important to Australians of all backgrounds, and I think it's tremendous.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: Maybe we can do this on another chat. Look, let's
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: just chat today because I'm talking to a great friend
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: and I've never talked about this before at this length,
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: So God, you are good.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe we can talk about.
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: The adoption issue, and the fact that when I found
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: my biological family, I was living in Bathurst, and so
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: Dubbo's just two and a bid hours further west and
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: it was easy to get there. And I spent a
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: lot of time with them and trying to learn what
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: their life was like and what they're going through and
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: what growing up in Burkele's like. And when I arrived
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: and I met the family after much preparation, the many
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: phone calls for me, it was an unbelievably spiritually uplifting
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: thing to see people that look like me for the
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: first time. Does that make any sense? Of course it does,
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: and spoke kind of liked me and thought like me.
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: And so we had a big reunion in Dubbo, and
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: I had lots of photos, and I rang my mum
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: and dad, Brian and Joan Bona and told them that
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: I'd found my biological mother and the family. My father said,
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: you know what, I don't mind at all. I always
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: knew you'd go on this journey. But my mother was devastated.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: She felt betrayed. And Dad said, well, maybe you could
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: have told us that you were searching, And I said, yes,
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: but if i'd come up with a duck egg. If
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: I'd come up with nothing, there would have been nothing
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: to talk about, and I could have saved Mum all
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: that angst. I told you when I knew something and
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: I came down from Bathurst to Sydney and I had photos.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: My dad was fascinated.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: Mom left the house really and stayed the night at
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: my godmother's, Arnie Pat's.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: She couldn't come home.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: She felt devastated, she felt betrayed, and to the day
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: she died, never forgave me, which is another story. Dad
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: was fine with it, but Mum never forgave me. And
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: I said to Dad, wise Mum carrying on this way?
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: He said, I think mothers are different. Interesting comment anyway, Well,
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: let's drill into this a little bit. What was the
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: source of her shame or anger? What was it she
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: felt betrayed that I felt the need to find another family, but.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Even though she knew that was your background, yep, And
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: how did it affect your relationship with her?
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: Dad also said, I think maybe if your biological mother
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: had passed and you found your biological father, things might
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: be different. But it was your biological mother that you found,
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: and maybe that added to it. Shandy I don't know.
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: I'm just telling you, but it was very upsetting for mom.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: Dad was fine, and.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: It's something you still carry to this day because she
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: never forgave you.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: I mean it ever forgave me, And in fact, when
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: she passed away nearly two years ago, I was written
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: out of the will.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Wow, how does that make you feel? It still cuts?
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: Because she was a tough woman, live with, very demanding
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: which I'm grateful for because she raised my bar very
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: high and I inherited a great work ethic from both
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: Mum and Dad.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: But when you finally find.
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: Out when your mother's passed and I did everything I
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: could to try and impress her, well, you finally find
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: out that that's how she really thought of me. I
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: probably need help with it because it cuts.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I'm sure it does, Luke, I've had no idea about this.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Did you try to talk to her in the later years.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a feeling like you needed to fit
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: a particular image for your mother's happiness. You didn't fit that,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: therefore you were cast out and you had no control
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: over that.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a tangled web, but that's the story. So
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: there you are, two years after her passing. Do you
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: find it within yourself to forgive her. It's easier now.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: I guess it's about understanding.
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: She was a very very She didn't have many friends,
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: she had sicker fans, and everything she did in business
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: was unbelievable. I mean she was the editor of Flair magazine,
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: she was fashion director for John J. Hilton, Martin Savage,
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: she was the chairman of the Australian Music Marketing Board.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: Everything she attempted professionally she rose to the top. Unbelievably
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: successful in business. In fact, so successful people would say, oh,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: she's got to be sleeping with the boss, because women
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: are only few strong women back in that day reached
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: the heights of professional success that she did. However, she
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: was a very, very strong woman. But she was a
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: shit mum. I'll say that maybe we should cut that,
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: because you shouldn't speak ill of the dead. Really, there's
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: an old saying, if you haven't got something positive to
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: say about someone who's past, don't say anything at all.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: But she was very hard to live with, really really
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: hard to live Well.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: I hope you don't cut that, because I think it's
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: a genuine expression of your feelings.
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: But I don't want people to think I'm ungrateful to
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: this wonderful life that I was given by Brian and John.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: Clearly you're not ungrateful, Luke, and the way you deal
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: with your children, the way you conduct yourself with the media,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: there's a great well of gratitude and a tremendous I
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: hope she was very proud of you for what you've achieved,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: because you've touched millions of lives and maybe maybe that
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: treatment of you spurred you to the achievements that you've made.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: So you can thank her on one level for being
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: a less than perfect mother, because you know it may
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: have helped in some way. But I think still, let's
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: be true about what happened. I mean, there are things
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: in my family we can do another whole podcast on
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: where you know, my brother's gay and he suffered a
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: lot even in the will. I'm not going to go
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: into that, and these things do cut very deep. But
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: I think we have to understand the context of our
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: families and back to that earlier point about the certain
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: shame and so forth. I mean, I had another experience
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: where my cousin's in the same relationship with her partner
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: female and they had two kids to a sperm donor,
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: a psychiatrist, lovely girl. When they actually never met him
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: as an anonymous they just knew he was a psychiatrist,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: and one of the girls, at about age fourteen, decided
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: she wanted to find out who he was. So she
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: goes on ancestry DNA, puts the sample there and matches
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: with a friend of mine from Sydney who had grown
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: up in an adoptive family, and she'd also tried to
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: seek her birth father. And she went on and she
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: matched with my second cousin, my cousin's daughters. So then
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: I said, you're either related to the sperm donor or us,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: and the only way we're going to find out is
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: if I do my test as well, and sure enough,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: we came up as first cousins. And then it was
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: a detective story to find out how she come to
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: be related to us, And it turned out that my
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: dad's younger brother is fiance was away overseas and he
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: was in Canberra on his own. He met this nurse
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: and they had a little fling and this baby was
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: the product of that. So she'd gone for decades and
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: decades thinking she was one thing when she was actually another,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: and you know the confession here that I've never said
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: on it. I actually passed this girl when I was
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: about twelve. Yeah, my cousin didn't know kissing jins. We'll
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: have your new nickname is Jerry Lee Lewis.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Jesus.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: But these questions have identity, question of who we are,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: where we come from, who are we do you have
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: a story that you'd like to share.
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: Email us Luck Boner radio guy at gmail dot com,
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: leave us a voice message, or contact Shandy.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Shandy would love to talk to you as well.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: How do people contact you well, Adam shann writer at
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: gmail dot com, or go to the Real Crime with
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Adam shannd on Spotify and have a listen to him.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Any correspondence for you that we get, oh will pass
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: on and vice versa.
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: And I've just got to say this. I don't feel
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: hijacked today because I could have easily said don't want
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: to talk about that today, and you would have said,
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: I understand. But I've because you and I are mates
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: and we've known each other for a long time, I've
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: opened up and I haven't ever done this before on
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: a public venue, on a public platform, and so there
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: it is.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: I think that's one of those classic Australian stories like
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: the ABC show Australian Story. I mean, I can see
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: someone picking this up. There'll be a call from a
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: producer after this goes to air because it's in some
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: ways tragic, but it's also a triumph over tragedy and
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: history that you are who you are today. And I
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: do glory in the love you and your family have
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: for each other. The recent wedding up in Indonesia which
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: I was there, and I think these are great, joyful
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: these you know, what was that Charles Berkowski? He said,
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: you can't beat death, but occasionally you're going to beat
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: death in life, you know, and you go for the light.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Might not be much light, but that's what you got,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: and I think that's what you know. A story like
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: yours represents that you overcome such a difficult issue that
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: you have no control over.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: And while I say, what if Australian Story or somebody
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: wants to do this, I'm happy to. So I don't
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: want to control the narrative, but I don't want someone
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: else to. I think it's important for balance. They talk
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: to some of my Indigenous family and also talk to
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: my white family who is my family. We got two
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: cousins who are more like sisters than cousins.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: What a shame.
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: My mum's sister, Arnie Leel, is no longer with this
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: because I adored that woman, and she adored me and
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: felt very sad for me, and I just for balanced.
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: I think, maybe talk to a few other people, but
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: I've been as honest as I possibly can, and I
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: can only tell you what I've known, what I've observed,
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: and what I've been told.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: That's all I can do.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: And also you're now able to pass that to your
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: children and to explain the quirks of history, quirks of families.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: And I think that's a wonderfully life affirming thing to
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: be able to do, even if you couldn't and I
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: couldn't change my mother, trust me, we were arguing two
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: weeks before she got sick and died, you know, And
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: I still carry the guilt around that.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: But you know, we can. We can in our memory
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: and in the.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Way we live our lives today represent that truth, represent
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: the love and tenderness that that that encompasses.
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: Well, this has been a bit of a surprise. We're
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: going to talk about Ned Kelly Desi Freeman and fanatical influences.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: And then we moved on to why we are the
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: way we are, and then you threw in a little
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: whoopsie do and look what we've created today. Jesus, it's
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: become a moment Luke Boner, you're a moment maker. Adam Shann,
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: I love you, mate, I.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Love you too.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: That was me shamelessly commandeering Luke Boner's bona fide podcast.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: This is a crime podcast, but it's also about human stories.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: So if you want to share your own, I'm always
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: happy to listen. But if you want to report a crime,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: call crime Stoppers on one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: or you can email me on Adam Shanned writer at
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: gmail dot com. This has been Adam Shann for Real Crime.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, Thanks for listening to this episode and
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: supporting this story.
• 37:30
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• 37:33
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• 37:34
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• 37:37
  Speaker 2: and our other True Crimes and they're completely engaged.
• 37:40
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• 37:43
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• 37:47
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• 37:49
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